More red light cameras

If people drive safely, then no money for recreation. So do your part for the youth. Drive dangerously through intersections.

Signs of a dying city:

• The cameras would generate around $320,000 this year, enough to plug the shortfall in the 2012 budget, he said. They would also generate recreation program revenue into the future, he indicated.

• ... an estimated $1.1 million budget hole anticipated because of the delayed opening of the Hollywood Casino Toledo.

Relying on dangerous drivers and gamblers to help keep the city functioning.

Run a red light - it's for the children!

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2012/01/run-red-light-its-for-children.html

Yeah, wait a second. Didn't the city assure everyone that the cameras were for safety, NOT revenue?
They lied? I'm so shocked.

Once established, the money generated will never go to recreational programs (remember the temp 3/4% tax?) The shortfall is a result of bad management: McLean is going to take $ from the cap improvement fund for 'operating expense' (pensions), then finance capital improvements with more debt.

http://www.phantomplate.com/photoshield.html

The license plate cover works. Absolutely.

or, just wipe some mud over the back of your car and plate. Claim ingnorance that you don't wash your car.

I am for red light cameras when they are used at intersections with high accident rates or where there is frequent abuse. Secor and Monroe comes to mind. I use to get upset when 2-3 cars would keep turning left after the light turned red. Since they have installed that light I rarely have had any issues waiting while cars zip around after the red. That said, I am against putting lights up specifically for the purpose of generating revenue. That’s like saying “Well… we know the voters won’t support another tax levy so we will find other ways to shake them down rather than to find serious ways to cut cost.”

Hey city employees and mayor – word to the wise – your citizens have cameras too! Lots of them BTW! Push too hard and there are people who can do a little independant investigative reporting if you know what I mean…

Eventually we will have enough laws that insure every man is a criminal.

Start pulling licenses for bad drivers and dont give them out till the kids 18.

Agree with Jeepmaker.

Short yellow lights are ridiculous, especially on higher-speed roads where even the most conscientious driver may not be able to stop in time to avoid going through the red.

Actually, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends traffic engineering studies for intersections thought to be 'unsafe' in order to determine WHY they're unsafe.

In the intersection Danneskjold referenced, the question should be WHY are cars "zipping around after the red"?

But Toledo has never done a study on these intersections - they just installed the red light cameras.

And then, when the revenue decreased, they installed speed cameras, thinking that perhaps motorists were just speeding up to get through the yellow before getting the red light camera ticket.

In some cities, after seeing revenue decline from both red light and speed cameras, they started installing cameras at stop signs.

Now, I realize that a traffic engineering study can be costly and installing a red light camera is easier. But, if the original claims of safety are to be believed, you'd think they'd want to know WHY the intersection was unsafe, rather than just collect money from the violations.

Alas, as they are (finally) admitting in this latest scheme for the additional 11 cameras they want to install - it's all about the money, as so many of us have said all along.

i find our growing dependency on these cameras to be troubling.

Thank you, jr, for keeping this thread on the right track. (He'll know what I mean!!)

This is an off-topic post too and should be deleted.

From Danneskjold: ...where there is frequent abuse. Secor and Monroe comes to mind.

No kidding. I've experienced the same thing myself in times past, and in fact it was the situation at Secor and Monroe that caused me to support red light cameras to begin with. I'd be Northbound on Secor and in line to make a left onto Monroe. I'd get the green arrow which was timed to last 15 seconds or so and I'd have to wait for two or three cars to tailgate each other through the intersection. This would increase to four and even five during the Christmas shopping season. A red light camera was installed and the behavior stopped - just like turning off a light switch.

I see very little point in Toledo conducting a traffic study at that intersection. People who run the red light do it because they can, and because their big hurry is bigger and more important than anyone else's big hurry.

If Toledo really wants revenue, and it's clear that they do - hell, it can't get any clearer! - then let them remove the red light cameras at Secor and Monroe, advertise the fact and allow the scofflaw situation to resume. I'm thinking two or three days at most. Then kick the fine for running a red light through the roof so the city can realize some real profit. Finally, have the TPD patrol the area and bust those who run the light and write a few tickets. Pay the OT for traffic enforcement.

The argument is that the red light cameras are more cost effective, but that argument ignores two things:
One, by arresting scofflaw drivers the city really is making the streets safer
Two, by paying overtime to police the city is putting more money into circulation, thus stimulating the economy

The really amazing fact is that we don't have more traffic fatalities than we already do, given the qualifications needed for a valid driver's license. If the government were serious about traffic safety, that's where they could begin.

The problem is that the red light cameras are a "cash cow" for the city. Just like turnpike fees, lotteries, "temporairy taxes", "levies", and now the cameras, it always starts out with good intentions, but quickly deteriorates into being abused and used for other purposes of a poorly financed government.

The city recreation department is the "whooping boy" every budget time. New ideas need to be thought of to keep this department running, but only if the remaining budget is addressed the same way.
Ideas:
First, the extremely low cost of admittance to the city pools is ridiculous. The pools are used a "babysitting" for many parents. While the pools have to deal with vandalism, including kids standing outside the fence throwing cheeseburgers into the pool because the pool was closed for cleaning someone's fecal material inside is hideous. Why not have a local company "sponsor" a pool. Put their name all over it, have them take care of it, and if it is vandalized as listed above, shut the thing down until those responsible are brougth to justice.

Second, the maintenance on the ball fields. Maybe hire teenagers to do the maintenance. Once again, look for private sponsors to step up and provide care. With so many lawn companies in Toledo, surely some would help.

Third, the Ottawa Park Ice Rink is the only recreationaly facility that even comes close to making money for the city. With reserved tournaments and festivals, this facility is extremely popular because of it's outside location and popularity brought about by the NHL and NCAA holding outside games. Last I checked, almost the entire month of Feb. is booked for special events. But, the continual cutting of the recreation budget threatens to keep this place maintained as one of Toledo's truly valuable resources. With slightly more attention and promotion, the Ottawa Park Ice Rink could become a real "focal" point for Toledo.

These are only "ideas" from a bystander, but I think it's time to introduce some new ideas to those in charge who only seem to know the "old ways of doing things".

Hockeyfan your right but you are biased for the recreation department. As far as the "poorly financed government", I would say more poorly managed than financed. True revenues are down but they haven't changed their expenditures to reflect on their income in response till after it has become a problem. As far as the recreation department, everything has to have a priority. What is necessary vs what is a "nice to have" luxury. Having enough money for everything to be open and running would be nice and in times past revenues allowed it, unfortunately they never looked ahead to times like these and obviously never put anything into writing to cover these possibilities. If anything they should have put conditions into all union and private contracts as well as management level negotiations that when times were tough, compensation would be reduced until it could be afforded again. There should be written into everything a mandatory 2-10 staged cut for everything, wages, contract labor, contracts, salaries. Along with that would have written into all contracts for purchases a contingency for reduction in costs.
There are a lot of entities in the area that have lived high off the hog from the good times and just demand the same or more now that we are in hard times.

I may be biased, but not blinded. I completely get the fact that tough times call for tough cuts. It just doesn't make sense to me that the recreation department, which for the most part is for those who can't afford health clubs, etc., to get cut, when there are so many wastes throughout the city finances.
Priorities must be set, I agree. I would rather see another police officer on the streets then a pool opening, ball park maintained, or even the ice rink kept open. But I'd rather see those recreation facilities open then to keep dumping money into the Erie Street Market.

What ever happened to the statement by the ex police chief that it is not about money,it is about safety?The truly sad part is that these cameras do not prevent people from running a red light.They might reduce the number of people doing that,but it doesn't make me feel any safer when traveling through an intersection.It is about money and nothing else.

Jeepmaker has the best idea of making the yellow lights longer and then delaying the other light for a second or two.It would be much cheaper than installing these expensive cameras and would do more for the safety of drivers and their passengers.Unfortunately,this would never happen due to the city now being used to receiving all the revenue they are getting from this cash cow.Instead of Toledo being known has the glass capital,we will be known for being the red light camera center of the world.

Ive seen somewhere where the lights had the red come on with the yellow, then red alone. Lengthening the yellow would probably only make more people go through the yellow thinking they were safe.

As far as the budget while I agree the recreation department and all the other things are all serving a good purpose its where they are choosing to cut. Elect better officials if you don't agree with their choices. Why cant they negotiate for less money for all? 500 cops all paid slightly less are still 500 cops.

Why does it always come down to cutting positions rather than reducing wages and maintaining numbers? Also why do all those salary positions always keep getting raises in this downturn economy? I keep hearing the argument that they cant get the best people if they cant entice them with the best pay. In this economy with so many people looking for work I am sure you could find someone to do the job for whatever salary is offered.

Lengthening the yellow would probably only make more people go through the yellow thinking they were safe.

Probably. At busy or higher speed intersections, I've thought for some time that adding a countdown timer would be the most prudent thing (similar to what is available at many crosswalks for pedestrians). Light turns yellow and everyone can see they have 4.....3.....2......1 seconds to make it through. Something other than guessing how long the yellow will be and jamming through (or squealing to a stop).

Let's vote down that 3/4% income tax renewal in March and every subsequent request, and they'll install a red light camera at every intersection with a traffic light.

Why stop at red light cameras? Let's forget the motorcycle cops and just put more cameras up. You can check for seat belts, speeding, driving too close, etc., all from some comfy chair at police headquarters. Just write out the tickets as they see them and mail them out.

Is this where it's headed?

ridiculous question ahead:

when these cameras catch an offender, is the ticket just mailed to your home? How does that work? I've never lived anywhere that has these types of cameras, and I'm assuming I've not been caught....

I got one about 9 years ago. It just arrives in the mail. Looks like a computer print out of 2 pictures of the back of your vehicle with the speed and time of the yellow and red light.
I was in a company car and was required to pay it. $90 then.

Someone in the Blades comment section about this story posted this link. http://redlightrobber.com/red/index.html

Very interesting. Basically, the lay out in scientific terms that if you travel at the speed limit through the intersections they studied enough times , you WILL run the light at some time.

The money grab makes me sick. It's downright embarrassing.

We live outside of the city. If I got one, I'd never pay it. Who's going to go collecting? The short staffed Po-po? No way - maybe the health department as they enforce the smoking ban . . . are they still doing that ? ?

Last year the city threatened to boot cars of the major scofflaws . . . . I don't even think they have car boots. What bullshit.

Remember the story about the woman who had like $700 worth of red light tickets and didn't pay? If they don't collect, what's the use in sending them out?

Does anybody here know what the process is to get it on the ballot? I know we have that option, I just don't know the process involved with starting the petition. I'm sure the public would vote to get rid of the cameras.

Does anybody here know what the process is to get it on the ballot?

Maggie Thurber would know, and could probably shed some light on the process needed to get rid of the red light cameras.

How about it, Maggie?

Here are some posts I did in 2008 on the We Demand a Vote charter amendment drive to prohibit the cameras in Toledo.

The posts reference Chris Finney of COAST who is still doing great things on behalf of taxpayers in Cincinnati.

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2008/12/group-plans-charter-amendment-to-outlaw.html

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/01/red-light-camera-charter-initiative.html

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/01/two-toledo-initiatives-hold-their.html

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/01/we-demand-vote-toledo.html

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/08/coast-to-submit-signatures-for-red.html

And here is the August 2009 post explaining why the petitions were rejected:

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/08/group-concedes-red-light-camera-issue.html

In 2010, they were back, as promised:

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2010/04/coast-tries-again-on-red-light-camera.html

However, I don't have any other posts and don't know what happened to the 2010 initiative. My work commitments that year kept from keeping better track.

I don't know if the We Demand a Vote website is still active, but I'm sure Chris Finney would be happy to talk with anyone who wanted to start another petition. He's got all the information, as well as the experience of having tried once before.

I believe my husband got one 8 years ago and just ignored it.

Nothing ever came of it.

I don't know if they have changed the enforcement since then, but I can tell you there is no evidence anywhere on any type of record for him that he ever got that ticket in the mail.

My problem with these new cameras is that they are specifically leading the news stories with promises of increased revenue. Any public safety implications seem to be an afterthought, not the primary motivation.

I agree mom2. Red light cameras were never about public safety. Hopefully, now more people know that the cameras are about revenue.

There is zero consequence for not paying your first red light camera ticket. Zero. They will send you letters, a law firm will send you letters...there is no legal consequence for not paying a single red light camera ticket. Ignore it.

I thought they could turn it over to a collection agency and it would show up on your credit report. Not true?

I don't know if that happens now and/or for subsequent tickets, but my husband's ticket from 8 years ago has never shown up anywhere.

(Perhaps it's because it was one and only one, along the lines of what Star56 said above?)

Fox Toledo, August 14th:

$8.5M uncollected from red-light fines

Toledo city council keeps questioning the growing pile of uncollected fines, but the police chief cites two problems. For one, a boot-the-cars of scofflaws blitz requires a lot of manpower, so it's been nearly a year since the last one. Second, he'd like a law requiring the payment of fines before a car registration can be renewed, but state legislators are reluctant to pass a so-called "warrant block" law.

http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/objections

I think we should expect council to tell tpd to boot a few dozen cars and have the cameras rolling when it happens. That would get many people to pay the fines, at least for a while.

Just get out there folks, starting tomorrow morning via early voting, and let these jerks at city hall know we are sick of their tactics. Vote against the income tax renewal and then they will have more to worry about than stealing a few hundred grand for a few swimming pools.

I'll never again vote the the income tax renewal till they agree to go along with the original proposal. Letting the mayor use that fund for anything than was originally stated is crazy.

When the administration makes threats, like booting cars for not paying fines, and then doesn't follow through it makes them look silly and weak.

I personally dislike the red light cameras as it makes my car the criminal and not who is driving it. I think they are an infringement on the fourth amendment. That being said I understand why they are used - money!

So what happens if you throw the ticket in the trash can? Can you lose your license?

As was mentioned earlier, when a city begins relying on RL cameras and taxes from gambling proceeds to fund operations, it is truly the beginning of the end.

Funding ANY kind of non-essential activity (such as pools) before hiring enough police officers or fixing the $&&!!$&((# roads is ridiculous.

I understand how dependent the city is on the "temporary" income tax but if voting it down is what is required to finally get their attention, then I'm all for it. I am sick and tired of being the stooge paying the taxes and receiving few benefits for it. The state's decision to place much of the I-75/475 reconstruction "on permanent hold" being a prime example. The bottleneck created at the 75/475 split has been an absolute joke for years - and will continue to be.

I'm going to use any tickets to line my cats' litter box with.

I got a RL ticket once when I was following a truck that was so high I couldn't see the light until my car was already in the middle of the intersection. The light was red. I was following at 25 mph in a 40 mph zone. I would rather have been ticketed by a cop so I could have explained that I wasn't running a red light as much as I was being led through one by a truck that must have gone through a yellow one. He might have sympathized and let me off. Ah well, ya pays yer money and takes yer chances. Such is life!