The Westfield Mall "Community Center" Thugs

that is just fucking stupid
your friend at brookstone is a moron

i thought there actually was a curfew in place. i've seen signs in the entrances saying as much.

Maybe you are stretching it just a weeee bit...

every time i've visited, it's bee A O K. lots of uniformed security, lots of shopping, no worries. yes, there is crime... but statistically it's not even worth mention. to talk about having to carry a gun in the mall is just silly.

there IS a curfew is place, and it's bizarree to imply otherwise.

I know when I think about unsafe places with 'thugs' running amok, I think about Williams-Sonoma and Hollister...

Lol

From that Feb 27, 2012 WTOL story

Here's the thread for this story at the WTOL Facebook page. It has over 100 comments.

That mall is a big, active area, so it's bound to have some issues. This kind of activity inside and outside that mall is old hat, and yet the place seems busy.

Past Toledo Talk postings:

• December 2006 - Pair arrested after brawl at the mall
• January 2007 - Yet again - Police arrest at least 3 after Franklin Park fight
• November 2008 - So how long before Westfield goes the way Southwyck and Northtowne did?
• February 2010 - Fight of Franklin Park Mall
  • At least 13 teens arrested after massive fight at Westfield Franklin Park Mall
• November 2010 - Beware - Be safe - Aggressive panhandlinng around Westfield Mall
• February 2011 - Westfield Mall---the wild, wild west
• September 2011 - Listening to RadioReference.com, 9:25 p.m. report of fight in parking lot at Westfield Mall.
• December 2011 - Westfield parking lot safety

About all of those posts were made during the cold time of year from November through February like this thread. Maybe avoid that place on a Friday or Saturday night in the winter.

Several malls in New England have instituted curfews that ban anyone under the age of 18 from entering after 6:00pm. Westfield has no such curfew. This HAS been discussed among various business owners at the mall but Williams refuses to institute one.

Strange the reaction by a few on TT. It is generally accepted that Southwyck was done in by exactly this same phenomena. Thugs and Hoes ran off most of the legit business. Do you have your head in the sand or are you too young to recall what happened there?

Also, are most of you aware that Williams management of this issue has been the subject of several meetings by a variety of stores owners at the mall?

Community center? Do you think business owners want to run a store in the middle of a community center?

As a family member of someone who used to work at Franklin Park Mall and who quit out of fear, I can verify that the mall manager is either clueless or determined to allow trouble to happen there. Why the company that owns Westfield allows her to continue I do not know.

What I do know is I don't set foot in that place, especially on Friday or Saturday nights.

Exactly. People who work there know the crime at Westfield is a growing and serious problem. Assaults in the parking lot are common place and the mall management works to keep this out of the media.

Williams has an "ideology" regarding the role of the mall and the underclass and this is allowing all kinds of trouble to brew at this place.

I haven't personally experienced problems at Westfield, but I also don't tend to go there at night on the weekends. (Not sure I'd want to either, honestly.)

I did take my kids to see a movie there on a Friday night a few months ago. (Alvin & the Chipmunks when it first opened.) Didn't feel unsafe, but that movie drew mostly families of course.

There was an annoying family behind us...to the point where we moved to a different row mid-movie. But I never felt at risk...though we didn't go into the actual mall, just the theater.

Please upso tell me where it is not "silly" to carry? You know places where 40 person mob brawls breakout and shots are fired are not good enough reasons? Maybe live human sacrifice?

I was there twice over the weekend, once on sat to eat and drink at the pub around noon and then took the family there to see a movie on Sunday at a 10am show but got out before the fools get out of bed. We live in West Toledo but drive to Maumee to see a movie after dark, the crowds at hang around there after a evening movie are not with the trouble. I've had to physically push my way past people who where practicing their "mean mugs" while blocking the stairs/escalators while telling them what I though of their childish BS, my wife will not go back.

I will take my late night money elsewhere.

When is it enough for good, honest, law abiding citizens to protect themselves?

I'm sorry, I should not have stated that carrying was "silly"
That was dumb on my part. I believe any law abiding citizens wanting to carry should, and should be allowed.

I just feel like I'm visiting a different mall than those of you that see it as dangerous. That said, I don't visit very often, and usually visit during the day when the teenagers are not around.

To that point, hilariously... during a recent visit, my wife and I were walking through the mall when we saw another couple we are friends with. The four of us started talking when all of a sudden a mall cop came up to us, and told us groups of 3 or more were not allowed to congregate. At least we know they are not profiling! :)

My wife and I shop at the mall on a semi-regular basis (although usually on weekday evenings or weekends during the day) and I've never felt unsafe. If you're that afraid stay in the suburbs, they've created plenty of places for you to avoid "thugs and hoes". I've grown up in Toledo and I remember Westfield being rougher when the food court was in the middle and there was an arcade.

That being said, I'm with dbw8906 about the movie theater. After several similar experiences on a Friday or Saturday night I refuse to put up with it. I'll consider a weekday movie but if it's a weekend evening movie we use it as an excuse to go to Carabba's or Nagoya.

Southwyck did not collapse because of gangs and thugs. Southwyck collapsed because it was an outdated, decaying retail space in a poor location that lost tenants and traffic to new retail destinations. It simply became tired, old, and irrelevant.

There's the voice of sanity!

I might add that one does not preclude the other. During the final few years there were some severe problems at Southwyck involving teenage mobs and violent crime. As I remember it, the last year that Southwyck was open we never went there at night on the weekends. I think if Southwyck were updated and policed a little more effectively it would have survived nicely.

...told us groups of 3 or more were not allowed to congregate.

That's outrageous. I wish you'd have gotten his name and badge number, and then written a letter to The Blade.

Along the same lines I watched a young lady in her late 20s walk into the Westfield mall during a winter snowstorm. She was immediately accosted by a security guard and instructed to remove her hood. I guess no one is allowed to wear their hood inside.

If Southwyck didn't have problems other than retail problems, why was it that weekends were split---one day for Whites, and the other for Blacks?

maybe it wasn't thugs, but a misunderstood "Cash mob".

If Ms. Williams wants to run a community center, maybe she would be happier as a community organizer? I thought the mall was a BUSINESS center.

I can't believe Brookstone is still open. Who buys their over priced stuff anyway.

I was probably considered one the punks back in the late 80’s that hung out there and Southwyck didn't have a "black/white" day.

Southwyck’s real demise came from the owner of Dillards. They had the right of refusal to allow any other big box stores in. When Montgomery Wards closed shop, they would let anyone else move in. It was simply a big tax right off and with plans to build at the new mall at fallen timbers it was in their best interest to let Southwyck fail.

Westfield is not 'dying' but there has to be a significant long-term problem when the perception is---whether accurate or not--that the place is 'unsafe' to families and teens there on their own on weekends and nights.

I started letting my 15-year-old son go with buddies there to movies on Sat. nights again after going for a time saying 'no'...now, with the latest incident, will probably pull back from that again.

I have a college-aged daughter who will not go there, at least on her own, weekends in the evening, and many of her friends feel the same.

At some point, this thinking has to affect business down the road.

Oh yes Southwyck did have separate days. Two in fact, either Fri. and Sat., or Sat. and Sun. Maybe not in the early 80s', but certainly the last few years it was open.

Curious as to how these separate days were publicized.

I went to Southwyck from time to time after moving to Toledo in 2000, and must have missed the memo on my designated white shopping days.

I went there once around 2005 and it smelled dank, never went back.

I grew up less than half a mile away from Southwyck and lost more quarters in the Red Baron and dollars on crappy movies at the AMC that many here. And I can assure you, I never heard of "black/white" day.

I can't believe Brookstone is still open. Who buys their over priced stuff anyway.

C'mon...you never had a need for the Pro Calf and Foot Massager for $399.99

...there has to be a significant long-term problem when the perception is---whether accurate or not--that the place is 'unsafe' to families and teens there on their own on weekends and nights.

Perceptions such as this tend to "snowball"...and are then "confirmed" in the public when something happens, such as a food court fight or even something false "happens"--i.e. Westfield Mall Abduction story

Incidents--even if rare--are amplified because of the perception that the mall is unsafe. An event occurs and then--BLAM!--"we told you so, it's unsafe".

The mall should be aware that the perception is there, it is growing slowly, it will hurt them in the future, and they need to be proactive (not silent) in dealing with it. Otherwise, factual or not, the perception will cause problems.

It wasn't posted. The Blade mentioned the situation several times, Carty made note of it a few times, and it was common knowledge anywhere on the street. And it wasn't a problem during the weekdays. I went there whenever I felt like it. Now that I know I might see the rumble of a lifetime, I'm going to spend weekend nights at Westfield. The only place you can watch that sort of action, absolutely free, anywhere in Toledo. Can anyone recommend where the best seats are?

For the curious, I did find a Blade article dated April 11, 1990 that contains a reference to what Wulf mentioned about Southwyck.

The article discusses a report made by the city's community relations board.

Friday is considered "White Night" at the mall and Saturday is "Black Night," the report said.

"According to mall management, physical altercations most often occur when youngsters of the opposite race show up on the other night," the report stated.

Blade article 4/11/1990

Many thanks!

No problem. It was an interesting read.

I was 16 at the time that Blade article was written. Often drove with friends to Toledo to hang out at the mall or see a movie, because...well, that's what teens my age did at the time.

However, I don't recall going to Southwyck with my friends - I grew up in Michigan, so usually we'd go to Northtowne (for the $1 movies) or Franklin Park.

Now it makes me wonder what would have happened if we had decided to head over to Southwyck instead on one of those Saturday night visits to Toledo.

Now it makes me wonder what would have happened if we had decided to head over to Southwyck instead on one of those Saturday night visits to Toledo.

A guess:

You would have returned alive and well (despite all the fear in the newspaper), seen a crappy movie at a run-down AMC theater, and probably bought some outlandishly tacky crap at one of the many mall stores that catered to teenage girl's tastes.

And, of course, you may have met 16 year old me...outlandishly tacky and catering to teenage girl's tastes...

Oh, and if you happen to time travel back to 1990, stay away from that SensorG fellow. He admits he's one of the "punks" :)

I was 17 at the time and my friends and I would hang out at the mall on Friday and Saturday nights all the time. I don't remember it be an issue.

I'm about as WASP as they come and I was never harassed…

Anyone been out to Fallen Timbers lately? There are still 20 or so empty store fronts...

And to think that my 16 year old self missed out on hanging at the mall with teen versions of OHT and SensorG...LOL

I was not much more than 16, I had a job on Friday nights... at a mall. So when I wasn't working the last place I wanted to hang out was at a shopping center.

Most people who go anywhere, return alive and well. That includes Westfield, late Saturday nights. So the question becomes "Am I most people"? However, the odds might change if I go to known trouble spots.

Which mall, dbw?

My friends and I loved coming to the mall in Toledo. Growing up in a small town, I had known pretty much every teenaged boy at my high school since we were 5 years old.

I'll admit it - a large part of the reason we'd venture down here was to check out some new teenaged boys.

Didn't hurt that we got to see a movie or buy a new pair of jeans in the process too.

I'll bet it wasn't at Toledos' first mall, on Huron St.. It was only open a short while, maybe late '58 or '59? Also, it was the first one that closed in Toledo, years before Woodville opened.

I was 11 and 12 back in 1989-90. Living only a few miles from Southwyck, my friends and I used to go there as often as we could - usually every weekend during the school year - to see a movie and hit the arcade, wander around and maybe buy a new cassette tape. My parents were always okay with it as long as I went with a friend. One of my friends' folks, though, wouldn't let him go under any circumstances, and I thought that was kind of strict. Being a kid, we were totally oblivious to any of the teen or racial conflicts happening at the time. However, one evening in the summertime, my dad said he was approached by a trio of hooligans who were harrassing him in the parking lot. I can't remember if they were trying to rob him or just being punks. He had my toddler aged brother with him, and not one to back down, he said he decked one of the thugs, and the other two took off running. Apparently, those kinds of things were happening there around that time. It seems like things were cleaned up or just died off in the mall's later years. I went there plenty in high school and never saw any trouble.

Another interesting find in the Google news archives.

September 17, 1991 a group called F.A.I.R (Friends Against Irresponsible Rezoning) ran a full page ad in the Blade listing 5 reasons why the Franklin Park Mall expansion would be bad for Toledo and why city council should vote "no."

View the ad here

Maybe one of the reasons I distinctly remember what was going on in Toledo in 1990, was that I turned 40 that year. Another place that had "special days", was the Rollercade, on Berdan near Detroit Avenue. I think it got wiped out when I-475 was built, or shortly thereafter, circa 1970.

i've never heard of such a thing as "special days", but i haven't been in toledo that long. just a gentle reminder of how freaking segregated this city is. i know i've said this before, but i've never lived in a more segregated city in my life.

toledolen_, while searching for the article about Southwyck in the Google news archives, I stumbled across an article from the late 80s titled "Blacks in Suburbia."

The article interviewed a few black families that had moved to Perrysburg, Sylvania, and the Franklin Park areas, and discussed their efforts to maintain connections with the black community while choosing to live in white neighborhoods.

If I can find the link again, I'll post it here. It was an eye opening read, that's for sure.

Here it is...from October 20, 1985:

Article

This city is segregated in what way? The restroom signs have been gone since the end of the Second World War. I believe you when you say you haven't been here long.

The article that I linked above mentions the segregation in Toledo. (Yes, I realize it is from 1985, but it was an interesting read anyhow.)

Apparently at that time, Lucas County was considered to be quite racially segregated according to census statistics.

From the article...

1980 census figures show that 95 percent of Lucas County's blacks live within a wedge-shaped "corridor" in Toledo stretching westward from just north and west of downtown to Reynolds Road, with Dorr Street at its long axis.

It would be interesting to see how the populations have shifted since that data was published. I would suspect that the neighborhoods are somewhat more integrated since then.

mom2: there still seems to be congregation bubbles. I was fascinated to see a lot of Asians in Oregon :) Guess that explains why we have 4-5 Chinese and 1 Japanese restaurant withing walking distance on Navarre Ave. But sadly no markets. Think that was from 2006-2007 ?

That map was on TT but not sure what thread.

Here is an updated map I mentioned earlier.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/5559870627/

I can't imagine being scared of some teenage kids scrapping at the mall.

I don't much like the place, but it has more to do with atmosphere and the pushy salespeople than it does with worrying about some kids maybe getting into a fight every few months.

I prefer it to places like Levis Commons, but I still mostly only walk around there anymore when I'm waiting for a movie, or something.

Heh heh We should Occupy Westfield Food Court and fill it up with middle-aged (and older) folks on a Friday or Saturday night. We could sit there playing cards, doing crossword puzzles and other very unhip things. The teen showoffs will find somewhere else to go ... at least for that one night.

OMG, viola, that made me laugh out loud.

INC, that was an interesting map. You can still see the general shape of the wedge-shaped corridor mentioned in the article from 1985. Thanks for re-sharing.

viola: I'm game :) been wanting to learn Euchre hear it's popular around here.

You guys set that up and my wife and I will be there in matching velour sweatsuits.

How about an early April Fool's Day on Saturday, Mar. 31? We can claim we need to do everything just a bit early because we're so darn OLD!!!

I love the velour sweatsuits idea! I swear, I'll get one at Savers for the occasion.

I'll bring extra knitting needles for anyone who needs them!

You may have noticed that there is never an "after incident" videotape from any of the media from inside the mall. The reason is that the media is not permitted inside without management permission. The thugs can get in, the media can't. I would urge bystanders to snap cellphone pictures and provide them to the media whenever possible. You are the only eyes inside. Just don't let the mall folks spot you taking the shots.

Westfield Mall uses a third party service for their video surveillance recording. Whenever there is an incident, they have to request the footage from this company and it takes 20-30 minutes to have it sent to them electronically.
They can view all of the cameras from the security station on the second level in center court. Does not seem to be the most productive way to manage the system.

Another thing that will work even better, is to bring stereos in, and play classical music.

Why not try this -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/23/high-pitch-only-teens-can_n_98304.html

As 15-year-old Eddie Holder sprinted from his apartment for school one recent morning, he held his hand to one ear to block out a shrill, piercing noise.

The sound was coming from a wall-mounted box, but not everyone can hear it. The device, called the Mosquito, is audible only to teens and young adults and was installed outside the building to drive away loiterers.

I'd love one of those things... lol!

Too bad they are so freaking expensive!

http://www.movingsoundtech.com/product-catalog/vmchk.html

Thanks for the link, mom2 -- very interesting read!

Incredible that anyone would try to deny the racial issues that infected Southwyck mall. Everybody commented on it including polititians.

One poster even tries to deny the Black/White night despite it being common knowledge and discussed in the Blade.

The same level of denial is now aimed at Westfield. Business owners and people who have worked there see the problem but some TT posters have their head in the sand.

Westfield needs a curfew. Despite the erroneous posts here, there is NO curfew. Ban anyone under 18 after 6:00pm (unless accompanied by an adult. Gone are the roving gangs and teen dumps from the ghetto. This has been done with great success in other places.

So what happened to the curfew then? I specifically remember seeing signs in the entrances to the mall stating there was a curfew.

A brief search pulls up an article discussing the mall considering it... http://www.northwestohio.com/news/story.aspx?id=417212#.T05s3nJRc_5

I think I'm going to go there Saturday night,and see for myself what's going on. Under the current management, nothing will be done about these sorts of problems. Hell, don't be surprised if basketball courts are added next to the community center, either.

Well said oldhometown...

That's exactly why I'm headed there. To see for myself if there's actual problems, or only perceptions of problems.

I've been going to baseball games in Detroit since 1963, every year except for one or two. I've never had any sort of crime related problems there whatsoever. Therefore, there are no actual crime related problems in Detroit.

<sigh...>

Therefore, there are no actual crime related problems in Detroit.

Umm...yeah, that was my point <rolls eyes>.

It's not that there are no problems...it's that the problems that exist are blown up to ridiculous proportions in the media and a silent mall management is not helping to fix whatever problems there are...which will lead to a demise such as Southwyck.

People die at Disneyland and Disney World at regular intervals...in addition to the petty crime at "the happiest place on earth". Disney is pro-active in both limiting crime AND dealing with media attention...something sorely lacking at little 'ol Westfield Mall.

And yet the biggest problem with Disney World according to some people is that they have "Gay Day" down there, not that people die on their rides from time to time. If Disney let the media run amok, they'd close the place down as a house of horrors where people fly off the Matterhorn, get crushed by monorails, and die of cerebral hemorrhages from roller coasters. Right now, Westfield is being besieged by stories that the black kids (oh no!!!) run wild and accost da white folk if they dare set foot in the mall after 6pm (always great media fodder when you add the race element...just like the good ol' days of Southwyck. We've progressed so damn much in 20 years).

And the money flees out to Levis Commons at a faster rate...or Amazon...

Doesn't Cedar Point have a similar Day? I agree, it is ridiculous that people get upset when a 14 year old drops his piece while running through a mall. They should be thankful it wasn't one of their own guns he dropped. It's real easy to ruin the finish on a firearm when it hits a concrete floor. I haven't dropped a gun yet, although I've only had mine since 1960.

"I haven't dropped a gun yet ..."

That's good gun control.

I've only had mine since 1960.

Cap guns don't count.

I used to go to Southwyck all the time, and went there with Main Lady on Friday or Saturday nights as it suited us. I never saw any fights or violence, and when I read about the black - white nights I was surprised as I never noticed a change in the crowd.

I believe we stopped going to Southwyck when the place got run down. By the time it closed up it was looking pretty dumpy.

Now, as often as I went to Southwyck I never saw SensorG there, so I'm kind of wondering if he was really there or not. I saw OldHomeTown a few times, though. The time I remember the best was when that jealous husband showed up... right OHT?

Come on MJ, it was 1990, you were in your early 60s, how good is your memory?

And what about all the bourbon and cigars in the meantime?

Crimeny, it's a good thing the old man still remembers his own name after all these years.

;)

Whatever happened to the phrase "Main Squeeze"?

I've only had mine since 1960.

"Cap guns don't count."

I hate telling you this, son, but cap guns certainly do count. The one I was referring to is my 1851 Colt Navy. It uses caps, and can count, loudly--all the way up to six.

By 1990 the residual effects of that psychedelic haze commonly referred to as the 1960s had pretty much subsided. Group therapy banished most of the false memories and the real ones were replaced with credible confabulation.

As everyone alive and well knows, the phrase Main Squeeze was relegated to the junk pile of obsolete phrases in 1980; the phrase I commonly use is Main Lady.

I hate telling you this...

Liar. You live for moments like this one.

That's a nice pistol, albeit a mite slow to load. I tried black powder once and enjoyed myself thoroughly. The smoke and noise makes the time spent loading a bargain.

So when's the old folks mob going to hit the food court?

I'll bring the 80's & 90's versions of Trivial Pursuit!

I agree, it is ridiculous that people get upset when a 14 year old drops his piece while running through a mall.

It's the mall's fault a 14 year old is carrying a piece?

mmmmm....ok.....

"Liar. You live for moments like this one."

Moi? A liar? I hate it when this happens. I do, however, provide services for folks, such giving them what they ask for. I consider myself a "people person". The old folks group(21 on up) will probably go on Saturday. Hopefully someone from your age group will go Friday and give us a report.

I do, however, provide services for folks, such [as] giving them what they ask for.

Temptation, thy name be Wulf.

I can't make it Friday; I'm going out drinking and dancing and doing wild and obnoxious things in public.

How about Saturday afternoon around 3:00 PM?
Anyone?

I can't make it Friday; I'm going out drinking and dancing and doing wild and obnoxious things in public.

Sounds like you'd fit right in at the food court...

"How about Saturday afternoon around 3:00 PM?
Anyone?"
Sorry, but I'm going to busy in Maumee then. But thanks for asking!

Had lunch at Claddagh yesterday afternoon. The negative press on this didn't seem to have an effect on business - the parking lot was packed!