Toledo Talk

Is Fluke REALLY A Law Student?

Is anyone on this Forum either a lawyer, or someone who has ever attended Law School? I know one thing for certain, anyone who ever went there, after the first day or so, uses legal terminology every chance they get. It's a matter of pride as well as a necessary tool to survive Law School. I have yet to hear from Ms. Fluke, a single phrase or utterance in her testimony that would indicate, even to a layperson, a rudimentary knowledge of legal terminology. Of course everything she says is scripted, and only short clips are made public. Maybe she needs new writers and handlers. Suffice it to say, she sounds like an undergraduate to me.

created by Wulf on Mar 10, 2012 at 01:08:23 pm     Politics     Comments: 44

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Why do conservatives hate this woman so much? She gave her option, do she really need all name calling hating?

posted by SensorG on Mar 10, 2012 at 04:15:27 pm     #   3 people liked this

Also this may be one of stupidest attacks on someone's ever. You're calling her out as not being a real law student because she doesn't use 'big words'? Dumb, dumb, dumb...

Correction above, last sentence should have read- She gave her opinion, does she really need all the name calling and hating?

posted by SensorG on Mar 10, 2012 at 04:26:16 pm     #   3 people liked this

I was asking a question directed at a specific group of people, of whom you're not a member.

posted by Wulf on Mar 10, 2012 at 07:20:04 pm     #   1 person liked this

I have a ton of lawyer friends and a few are judges. They talk just like everyone else. Your lawyer friends sound like douches...

posted by SensorG on Mar 10, 2012 at 11:49:42 pm     #   7 people liked this

Keep on fucking that chicken, Wulf.

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 11, 2012 at 03:50:21 am     #   2 people liked this

Anonymouscoward, you seem to have an issue with redundancies.

SensorG, do your friends talk like regular people while testifying in Court, on nationwide television?

posted by Wulf on Mar 11, 2012 at 01:10:06 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Also this may be one of stupidest attacks on someone's ever. You're calling her out as not being a real law student because she doesn't use 'big words'? Dumb, dumb, dumb...

Correction above, last sentence should have read- She gave her opinion, does she really need all the name calling and hating?"

Did you feel the same way when the libs called Joe The Plumber names for just asking a question that put Obama on the spot.Sounds like a double standard to me.

posted by buckeye278 on Mar 11, 2012 at 01:41:31 pm     #  

Liberals don't write post about Joe questioning whether he's a real plumber because he doesn't wear red overalls, eat mushrooms and kick turtles...

posted by SensorG on Mar 11, 2012 at 03:20:51 pm     #  

What's your point, Liney? His name's not Joe and he's not a real licensed plumber, that was established. In fact, his only qualification for office is that he's a liar.

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 12, 2012 at 09:42:31 am     #  

She's a 3rd year law student at Georgetown and a past officer of at least one student group. I think it is safe to say that she is definitely a law student.

I don't personally agree with all of her opinions, but she's certainly not misrepresenting herself.

posted by mom2 on Mar 12, 2012 at 09:49:29 am     #  

I know one thing for certain, anyone who ever went there, after the first day or so, uses legal terminology every chance they get.

This usually stops when it starts to affect your personal life. Non-legal friends think you have become a condescending ass, your significant other becomes upset that any conversation can become the groundwork for a legal analysis, and people who you used to casually talk to avoid you now.

That, or your friends/family hit you up for so much free legal advice that you start avoiding such conversations with them.

Sometimes, not saying something can be as powerful as saying something. Plus, it's an easy way for anyone who has a license to practice law to avoid making a statement that could be taken as legal advice.

If Fluke was not really a law student, Georgetown would quickly set the record straight. Also, that would also mean she was lying to congress, which would set her up for more trouble.

You are also assuming that her statement was prepared for others with a legal education. If you have an agenda you are trying to push, you do it in a way that has a level of mass appeal. If all she did was make academic and legal arguments to Congress, it would have never got the attention it has received. Using simple language (or simpler) and emotional pleas (by telling stories of her friends) makes for great television and web viewing. Her speech was probably reviewed by a few people who really know what they are doing. America took the bait on this one; hook, line, and sinker.

Here's a takeaway point: if you put the right wolf in a sheep's clothes, you can do a lot for your cause.

posted by brainswell on Mar 12, 2012 at 09:55:42 am     #   1 person liked this

This usually stops when it starts to affect your personal life. Non-legal friends think you have become a condescending ass, your significant other becomes upset that any conversation can become the groundwork for a legal analysis, and people who you used to casually talk to avoid you now.

True.

Most of my closest friends from college are lawyers, and the ones who did start to "talk like lawyers" learned their lesson pretty quickly for the reasons you just described.

I used to teach LSAT classes. It was always interesting (and annoying) to see the students come in who felt that they needed to "talk like a lawyer" just because they were applying to law school.

Ranks right up there with the pre-med students who thought they were qualified to give medical advice. LOL

posted by mom2 on Mar 12, 2012 at 10:00:42 am     #  

brainswell posted at 09:55:42 AM on Mar 12, 2012:

I know one thing for certain, anyone who ever went there, after the first day or so, uses legal terminology every chance they get.

This usually stops when it starts to affect your personal life. Non-legal friends think you have become a condescending ass, your significant other becomes upset that any conversation can become the groundwork for a legal analysis, and people who you used to casually talk to avoid you now.

That, or your friends/family hit you up for so much free legal advice that you start avoiding such conversations with them.

Sometimes, not saying something can be as powerful as saying something. Plus, it's an easy way for anyone who has a license to practice law to avoid making a statement that could be taken as legal advice.

If Fluke was not really a law student, Georgetown would quickly set the record straight. Also, that would also mean she was lying to congress, which would set her up for more trouble.

You are also assuming that her statement was prepared for others with a legal education. If you have an agenda you are trying to push, you do it in a way that has a level of mass appeal. If all she did was make academic and legal arguments to Congress, it would have never got the attention it has received. Using simple language (or simpler) and emotional pleas (by telling stories of her friends) makes for great television and web viewing. Her speech was probably reviewed by a few people who really know what they are doing. America took the bait on this one; hook, line, and sinker.

Here's a takeaway point: if you put the right wolf in a sheep's clothes, you can do a lot for your cause.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/celinda-lake-sandra-fluke-conspiracy_n_1335484.html

Keep on fucking that chicken and defending Limbaugh while you're at it.

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 12, 2012 at 10:15:12 am     #   2 people liked this

AC - I was not alleging a conspiracy. I was merely pointing out that Fluke's speech was well written and she had an audience in mind. She has been involved with liberal causes for years and advocated to legislators before. Her speech reflects that.

If you were called to testify before Congress, and a well known PR firm that you were politically aligned with offered you a free consultation to review your material, wouldn't you take?

Personally, I think the many health related uses for birth control alone warrant inclusion in all private insurance plans. If your employees don't believe in a important part of their employer's values, the employer should find new employees. At will employers can always find a way to justify letting someone go.

posted by brainswell on Mar 12, 2012 at 10:43:43 am     #  

Personally, I think the many health related uses for birth control alone warrant inclusion in all private insurance plans

It is unfortunate that some politicians and lobbyists are trying to use the argument that women are being regularly denied access to the Pill for non-contraceptive, medical reasons.

I have seen hundreds (if not thousands) of benefit plan designs from across the region and the nation. I've never personally ran across a private insurance plan that does not cover the birth control pill for a medical diagnosis. (A prescription from the physician indicating the non-contraceptive reason for needing the birth control pill to manage a medical condition.)

I previously worked for one of the largest medical insurers in the region, and had access to the benefit plan designs for hundreds of local employers. Did not see a single one that would not cover the Pill for a medical diagnosis.

I have also worked for a consulting firm, reviewing pharmacy plan data for large corporations across the country. Again, never saw a single plan that did not at least cover the Pill with a medical diagnosis.

I should also note that I work for the largest Catholic employer in the region, and our pharmacy plan covers the Pill for non-contraceptive, medical reasons with a doctor's prescription.

posted by mom2 on Mar 12, 2012 at 11:01:11 am     #   4 people liked this

Is anyone on this Forum either a lawyer, or someone who has ever attended Law School?

Yes.

I know one thing for certain, anyone who ever went there, after the first day or so, uses legal terminology every chance they get.

No.

It's a matter of pride as well as a necessary tool to survive Law School.

No.

I have yet to hear from Ms. Fluke, a single phrase or utterance in her testimony that would indicate, even to a layperson, a rudimentary knowledge of legal terminology. Of course everything she says is scripted, and only short clips are made public. Maybe she needs new writers and handlers. Suffice it to say, she sounds like an undergraduate to me.

Just because she is a law student doesn't mean she has to speak in legal jargon the whole time. Believe me, the most effective lawyers speak plainly both to their clients and the courts. I don't want to read letters or pleadings that contain a lot of heretofores and whereases, and neither does anyone else. But judge for yourself, here is her transcript.

http://www.whatthefolly.com/2012/02/23/transcript-sandra-fluke-testifies-on-why-women-should-be-allowed-access-to-contraception-and-reproductive-health-care/

posted by Ace_Face on Mar 12, 2012 at 11:24:51 am     #   2 people liked this

I agree 110% with what mom2 said above. Women who need the birth control for medical reasons can get it covered through their health plan. I know this because I did this myself, as have a lot of my friends. Also, if your insurance does not cover the pill for contraceptive use, you can get Sprintec generic at Target pharmacy for $9. There is no reason that any insurance program should be mandated to cover birth control.

posted by dell_diva on Mar 12, 2012 at 01:50:23 pm     #   2 people liked this

" In fact, his only qualification for office is that he's a liar."

Well then, he'll be just as qualified as the current holder of that seat.

posted by Foodie on Mar 12, 2012 at 02:57:02 pm     #   3 people liked this

dell_diva posted at 01:50:23 PM on Mar 12, 2012:

I agree 110% with what mom2 said above. Women who need the birth control for medical reasons can get it covered through their health plan. I know this because I did this myself, as have a lot of my friends. Also, if your insurance does not cover the pill for contraceptive use, you can get Sprintec generic at Target pharmacy for $9. There is no reason that any insurance program should be mandated to cover birth control.

Medicare covers penis pumps. Why aren't you screaming about that?

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 12, 2012 at 04:15:10 pm     #   2 people liked this

There's a difference between Medicare offering coverage for something vs. mandating coverage for something on all plans.

Not to mention that you can't compare a medical device that corrects a physical disability to the Pill, of course.

I'm not opposed to people using the Pill as a form of contraceptive, but I don't like a blanket mandate requiring everyone to get it for free either. Should it be available to anyone who needs it for a medical condition? Of course.

I think it's ridiculous that there's a mandate to provide at no cost to everyone. There are cost-effective methods of contraception (including generic BCPs), and the people who truly do not want to get pregnant will take advantage of those methods.

Do we really think that the woman who aren't responsible enough to take charge of their fertility and pay $9 a month for generic BCPs are actually going to properly use their "free" BCPs either?

And don't even get me started about the people who claim that it's an unnecessary burden for a woman to get a yearly pelvic exam to get a prescription for birth control. Guess what? If you're sexually active, you should be having a yearly pelvic exam no matter what. Especially if you're only using the Pill for protection, which doesn't protect you from HPV.

posted by mom2 on Mar 13, 2012 at 09:51:33 am     #   3 people liked this

Good post mom2

posted by shamrock44 on Mar 13, 2012 at 10:08:05 am     #  

So you're fine with tax dollars covering penis pumps because being unable to get it up without assistance is a physical disability, regardless if the man uses it for jerking off, but a "mandate" for birth control is offensive to you?

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 13, 2012 at 12:10:49 pm     #   1 person liked this

There are very specific medical criteria that must be met before a vacuum erection device (aka penis pump) would be reimbursable under Medicare.

You act as though any Medicare-eligible man can get a free penis pump to use as a sex toy, which is completely inaccurate.

(Not to mention that it isn't "free" even to those who get approval for coverage - durable medical equipment (DME) is still subject to the Part B deductibles and coinsurance.)

posted by mom2 on Mar 13, 2012 at 01:06:50 pm     #  

Also, I don't think it is analogous to compare coverage for a penis pump (when approved for specific medical criteria) to coverage for contraceptives.

A better gender equivalent would be the fact that breast implants and nipple tattooing are covered for women who have had breast cancer surgery.

posted by mom2 on Mar 13, 2012 at 01:31:34 pm     #  

Birth control is nothing more than preventative medicine. Why shouldn’t health care companies be required to cover it? It’s no different covering insulin or high blood pressure medicine. Contrary to what many conservatives (not all) think, the more sex you have doesn’t mean the more birth control you use.

posted by SensorG on Mar 13, 2012 at 02:11:51 pm     #   4 people liked this

Unfortunately, that's not the issue Sensor. Conservatives blow a fuse when you tell them that there are poor people out there who want to have responsible sex with each other instead of working and paying taxes for the extra social services they use.

posted by brainswell on Mar 13, 2012 at 02:32:40 pm     #  

Actually, what we are talking about is employer provided healthcare. Something that our employers have us paying more and more for every year, this isn’t about tax payer funded birth control (money well spent in my opinion if that were the case).

posted by SensorG on Mar 13, 2012 at 02:40:39 pm     #   2 people liked this

Why shouldn’t health care companies be required to cover it? It’s no different covering insulin or high blood pressure medicine.

Unfortunately, the proposed mandate is treating it as different than covering insulin or high blood pressure medicine.

posted by mom2 on Mar 13, 2012 at 02:44:33 pm     #  

Yeah, I know. I just couldn't resist the jab.

posted by brainswell on Mar 13, 2012 at 02:45:35 pm     #  

For the record, I'm not anti-birth control. (Actually, I was a volunteer counselor at Planned Parenthood for awhile in college, in addition to other activities that would probably get me admonished by die-hard right wingers.)

I just get weary of some of the rhetoric being tossed around by both sides regarding this issue. Some think that birth control should be passed out like candy, some think no one should use it at all. Blah.

There's not a lot of room for discussion on a reasonable middle ground.

If you dare to question whether BCPs should be covered for "free", then you're betraying your gender. (I've seen that mentioned in some opinion articles and editorials, not specific comments here at TT.)

If you speak out in favor of the mandate, then the other side Limbaughs you.

No wonder why many moderate, reasonable people stay out of political discussions entirely.

posted by mom2 on Mar 13, 2012 at 03:07:10 pm     #  

I haven't seen anyone call out women as traitors for not supporting the mandate the progressive sites I read, but then again the entire conversation around birth control devolved quickly moving from a religious freedom argument, to “if you’re on birth control, you’re slut” argument pretty quick. Hard to find a moderate conversation in the midst of that. Hell this thread was started because someone thought Fluke didn’t use enough “big words” to be a real lawyer student… stupidity like that doesn’t set you up to hold much a real conversation.

posted by SensorG on Mar 13, 2012 at 03:21:45 pm     #   1 person liked this

A long time ago, I had to enter my e-mail address to read an article on a national women's group website. Ever since then I've been getting periodic newsletters and political updates from a variety of women's groups.

I've never unsubscribed, because sometimes the newsletters are interesting. Even if I don't always agree 100% with what is being said.

Some of the links that are being sent out about the contraceptive coverage are very over-the-top though. I'm thinking perhaps that's where I saw the comments about betraying your gender if you don't support the mandate?

Will have to see if I still have any of those links. Normally I skim the articles and then delete. Honestly Sensor, even you as a relatively progressive person might raise your eyebrow at some of those articles.

You're right though - it's hard to have a real conversation about topics like this. I consider myself to be moderate, though I may lean a little conservative. However, I have friends all across the spectrum and have no problem conversing respectfully with people who have different viewpoints. I tend to get frustrated and back away when the name-calling and general nastiness begins.

posted by mom2 on Mar 13, 2012 at 03:44:47 pm     #  

SensorG said - "I haven't seen anyone call out women as traitors for not supporting the mandate the progressive sites I read, but then again the entire conversation around birth control devolved quickly moving from a religious freedom argument, to “if you’re on birth control, you’re slut” argument pretty quick"

One commentator (Limbaugh) said that and has since apologized. Where are you seeing this "slut" argument prominently posted???

The arguments I see most often (by far, most often) center on the infringement on religous freedom.

posted by shamrock44 on Mar 13, 2012 at 05:11:47 pm     #   1 person liked this

Rush had lots of defenders and lots of other commentator telling him he's right, head over to swamp bubbles to see plenty. Or google Bill O from Fox news. As for Rush being 'one commentator', he's the single most successful conservative media star around with millions of listening 'ditto heads', he's also a major force in the Republican party. He's not some no-name in the 3-6 slot on WSPD...

posted by SensorG on Mar 13, 2012 at 05:46:54 pm     #   3 people liked this

Birth Control is cheaper than any of the options that come up after "oops the condom broke/I didn't pull out in time/rhythm method failed and the few other over-the-counter methods failed". I'd rather have an extra 5 cents of my premium go for that than have my premium go up to pay for the complications of it NOT being covered and used.

And as far as abortion goes, I'm not going to take a stance on it or whether or not it should be covered, but anyone having a cow about mandating coverage for The Pill should take one minute to consider whether or not they'd prefer that over paying for the sort of things that might happen if an abortion (be it legal and professional, back-alley, or at home with a wire coathanger or punch to the belly) goes wrong. Who here would choose to pay less for covering The Pill in their plan over having that happen? Remember the old saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure....

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 13, 2012 at 06:04:37 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Some think that birth control should be passed out like candy"
I'm curious, mom2. Why shouldn't it be passed out like candy? (not to kids of course, but you catch my drift)

posted by pink_slip on Mar 13, 2012 at 09:13:53 pm     #   1 person liked this

Haven't read many comments after the OP, so forgive me if my post doesn't correspond with the current chatter in this thread.

Wulf, you're referring to legalese. The answer is almost no one in law school uses legal terminology to any extent outside of law school. Most law students are very aware they'll come off as a douche if they do. Not even those of us who attended the "elite" law schools use legalese in normal conversation, sans a few with asperger.
Glad to see you're still posting frivolous things.

posted by JJFad on Mar 23, 2012 at 06:03:50 pm     #   1 person liked this

Where do we draw the line? If the government can mandate that birth control should be free, why should there be a co-pay on anything?

posted by Dappling2 on Mar 23, 2012 at 11:24:13 pm     #   1 person liked this

In a previous life I was in court quite a bit as a social worker, and remember going into court thinking that there would be articulate lawyers like I saw on TV, but nooooo, these were the least articulate professional people I could imagine, some could barely put together coherent sentences, others were better but none that I saw was ever going to win a case by being dazzling in their speaking ability.

posted by roygbiv on Mar 24, 2012 at 11:03:04 am     #  

What a gas. Liberals are the most vile & heathen creatures on the Planet. They are so hate filled that it's a joke. Bill Maher, Chris Rock, Letterman, that Baldwin jackass, have all spewed hate for Republican women for years !!! Liberals are so pathetically deranged in their hate filled nonsense, they even went after Sarah Palin's , own children !? Worms, like all liberals are , convolute reality with their psychotic madness with every utterance they speak.Look above if you require proof beyond a shadow of doubt.

posted by BigWillard on Mar 24, 2012 at 11:31:53 am     #   2 people liked this

^^^ What?

posted by hunkytownsausage on Mar 24, 2012 at 11:51:09 am     #  

BigWillard posted at 11:31:53 AM on Mar 24, 2012:

What a gas. Liberals are the most vile & heathen creatures on the Planet. They are so hate filled that it's a joke. Bill Maher, Chris Rock, Letterman, that Baldwin jackass, have all spewed hate for Republican women for years !!! Liberals are so pathetically deranged in their hate filled nonsense, they even went after Sarah Palin's , own children !? Worms, like all liberals are , convolute reality with their psychotic madness with every utterance they speak.Look above if you require proof beyond a shadow of doubt.

ProfProvo! You're back!

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 24, 2012 at 12:22:18 pm     #  

BigWillard posted at 11:31:53 AM on Mar 24, 2012:

What a gas. Liberals are the most vile & heathen creatures on the Planet. They are so hate filled that it's a joke. Bill Maher, Chris Rock, Letterman, that Baldwin jackass, have all spewed hate for Republican women for years !!! Liberals are so pathetically deranged in their hate filled nonsense, they even went after Sarah Palin's , own children !? Worms, like all liberals are , convolute reality with their psychotic madness with every utterance they speak.Look above if you require proof beyond a shadow of doubt.


This is one of the most hilarious posts I've ever read... anywhere. Kudos for being able to push your own head up your ass. A true contortionist.

posted by JJFad on Mar 24, 2012 at 09:18:57 pm     #