Metropark in Downtown Toledo

It could lead to the development of the area around the train station (which really should be more of a focus - I doubt the majority of Toledo even knows it exists)...

Well, honestly, when the only 2 trains that come to Toledo both arrive and depart between 10PM - 6AM, why would anyone think we have a train station...or service? And now that Megabus runs through the area, there's even less incentive to drag ass to Union Station at 2:30AM.

On the larger point, having greenspace downtown is a winner, especially if the land can be gotten cheap.

I don't see it as an attraction, but a benefit for folks living downtown. It could be an added selling point for downtown living though.

I hope it finally gets done. We really need to take advantage of our riverfront. Strangely enough, my peeps at Owens Corning say there are deer and coyote that traverse through this area.

Yeah, I think it will definitely make downtown more appealing to prospective residents - especially those whose major hangup is lack of green space for walking a dog, etc. I'd love to see it wrap underneath the High Level Bridge and stretch between the OC parking lot and the river there.

I'm also excited about this, because of the (at least in my mind) ease of this project. Essentially, they'd be taking a strip of completely unused, untouched land, cleaning it up a bit, and making it pedestrian-friendly.

Once this is done, my imagination runs pretty wild with possibilities. I've always loved that Great Lakes Terminal Warehouse building there. I have no idea what it looks like on the inside, or even what it's current state is (anyone using it, etc), but a place like that just seems like a prime candidate for another loft conversion project. Overlooking a metropark and the river, a block from the Oliver House...

Sorry about the negative waves but I don't know how you are going to control the gangs, druggies and homeless from taking it over?

Not enough police to cover regular calls for service now, so who is going to patrol and keep it safe for the people that it was intended to serve?

I just question how moving lots of low income residents downtown (ie section 8 people) who don't have money to spend downtown is going to help the problem.

I'm doing my best to not be jaded here because I want this to succeed but I don't think high income suburb worker who drives a Saab or Lexus is going to be working out next to low income youth at the Y. You can call me a racist but just trying to be real here. High income folk don't mingle with low income, there is a reason these people move to Perrysburg.

I'm just not sold on the fact that moving a bunch of poor folk to a high profile revitalization project is a good idea.

I would love to see some bike paths. Oregon has a few along the streets and it's been nice to ride on.

dbw, I might have missed it, but I don't think any of the plans have anything with Section 8, do they?

I do completely agree though. I'm all for S8, just not in a downtown area that is trying to build itself up. Downtown is in need of residents who can afford to support the growing infrastructure.

the area would need a lot of security. I'm not sure the restaurants at the docks would like the driveway closed at dusk as they do for other metro parks.

I was driving to 75 from docks one time and saw two boys beating up another. I stopped car near them but that didn't phase them. I called Toledo Police and was told we don't respond to those situations.... There is a reason why people choose to live in the suburbs.

It should come as no surprise that I am very excited about this development.

It is very possible the 2.3 mill state tax credit has S8 contingencies attached to it. We will find out sooner or later. The devil sure is in the details.

I am excited about the park, though. That is a lot of unused land that can definitely be better used. I can't imagine it being an attraction for unsavory elements any more than International Park is.

I agree Johio83, that's not how interpreted the apartments. Sounded to me like there would be studios in the $400-500 range on up to multiple bedrooms for higher price range. I had a friend that moved into the LaSalle building after it's renovation and it was similar to that, although I think there was some pricing related to income. I'd imagine there would need to be a credit check for these rentals and hopefully they wouldn't let multiple people move into a studio...

Back to the park... I've crawled all over the proposed area taking pictures in the past. It already looks like wilderness with a city backdrop. Every time I went down there I never saw another person. Is the fear that if you clean it up and add trails then suddenly gangs will descend on it?

I absolutely could be wrong, but when you hear "low income" these days from a government official it's new speak for Section 8. And as BSwell said I do have a feeling there is a Section 8 string attached.

If it is really 400 - 500 dollar a month rent controlled apartments it might not be a bad thing to get young people downtown but it's not going to get the cash flush yuppies (who is the real target market) into the plan. People who can only flip 400 a month for rent are not going to drop 40 dollars for lunch at Grumpys, they are ordering off the dollar menu at Mickey D's (been there done that), the same person isn't dropping their spare change at any of the restaurants who hold the Art Walk or have the money to support all the fashionable trendy things the budding Toledo hipster community is trying to build.

Where ever there are people to rob their will be vultures waiting to prey on them. If they do intend to make this a real walking attraction they will have to increase police presence. There isn't a huge crime problem over that way now because there are no people to rob.

There are good people who fall on hard times and end up on section 8, doesn't mean you are a baby mama or a crackhead.

I have no concerns about homeless or gangs moving in. My biggest fear would be another "occupy" movement.

oh yeah, more development downtown, bring it. Crossfit Lifesport just moved into a huge new place on the river side of Summit and has plenty of room for new people, plus, Todd's also loving living downtown, things are looking up!!

db, if I were spending $40 on lunch at Grumpy's, I would expect him to personally serve me some -- never mind. I think these urban efforts hope to draw a variety of people. Starving artists and hipster musicians don't drop that kind of coin on food very often either, but if they make a neighborhood look & feel cool, the people with real money will visit as a destination. I would much rather go out for dinner in an interesting neighborhood than eat a comparable meal at a soulless strip mall full of parked cars. I don't want to live downtown, I just want to eat there!

Those starving artists and musicians are usually the same people serving you dinner and tending bar at the downtown spots. Somebody has to do it :)

Downtown is a great place for younger, cash-strapped kids to work and play. They are down there already.

If there's adequate parking, I think a downtown Y location would be appealing for downtown workers.

It would be nice to be able to work out right before/after work, or even take a lunchtime yoga class, etc.

Maybe I am just missing it, but after living and spending a lot of time downtown for over 4 years where are these masses of druggies, homeless and gang members downtown?

A Y downtown would also support the many young profesionals that live in the area. I don't go to the Y myself but I have a number of friends who live downtown that use the Summit Y now, and they are not Low income. I imagine they would continue.

"Maybe I am just missing it, but after living and spending a lot of time downtown for over 4 years where are these masses of druggies, homeless and gang members downtown?"

Well, one of them died on a park bench in front of the Main Library this morning...

dell, how do you know the circumstances there? You know she was a homeless druggie? Considering they haven't reported anything in regards to coroner findings or police reports, I can only assume you have intimate personal knowledge of the events.

And gcg, I think that is largely the result of two things:
1) Incorrect "public knowledge." I'll use sushi as an analogy, because I'm betting a lot of people experienced it the same way: I grew up being told sushi is gross. It's raw fish, it's unhealthy, ew, slimy, gross, don't touch it. Therefore, I knew it was gross, and said the same thing about it. I passed it off as fact, because everyone told me so, and I believed it. Then I ate sushi. And it was delicious, and healthy, and it's been one of my favorite foods ever since. Sometimes things just cross over into "public knowledge" because enough people say it long enough, not because it's actually true.

2) people often refer to anything within a mile of actual downtown as "downtown." Somebody gets stabbed on Lagrange, somebody gets mugged on the east side, and people immediately say it happened "downtown." If you ever look at the crime reports or the map in the paper showing where crimes around Toledo have happened, the CBD/downtown area is pretty sparse, and quite honestly, never any different than the suburbs.

She wasn't homeless - she lived in public housing (according to the Blade article).

Nothing was mentioned one way or the other about drugs. She did have a record though, since the photo used for her was a mugshot.

P.S. I've worked downtown for years, and have never felt uncomfortable or had any issues. Don't really spend a lot of late nights downtown these days. (Young kids = I don't spent a lot of time bar hopping. LOL) But I do enjoy working downtown.

The fact that the city is finally attempting to create an enticing downtown for multiple walks-of-life has really helped changed my attitude about the politics around here. I don't expect a miracle, but this is the type of thing that precipitates further development. I've lived downtown for 6 years and this has been the first real positive attitude shift I've seen. Even people from the burbs are asking how I like it here, whereas before they would raise an eyebrow at why I chose to move downtown. Some even have said they are considering a move here.

This is great to see happening. It's a beautiful area, and it will be nice to see it being maintained and utilized.

And, yeah, I've never seen any real issues with "gangs" or "druggies" downtown. Sometimes on the periphery. But even then, nothing that's ever caused me any real concern.

Great project for the area.

a few random points:

metroparks are pretty well patrolled - there will be rangers and i'd be certain of cameras. don't know if they intend to have a live-there ranger.

rising tides lift all ships: success for the cbd, whd, and uptown will bring further employment at all income levels - that gives everyone a stake in maintaining safer neighborhoods and gives everyone spending money.

the working poor are the biggest victims of crime, are less likely to get police help, are less likely to have insurance, and are unlikely to have additional available money to replace lost goods.

socio-economic segregation, which is a relatively recent occurance, actually has negative effects on every segment of society. wealthy suburb are actually more deadly than poor urban neighborhoods because of traffic accidents. the loss of interaction of socio-economics and the associated racial aspects of that cause people to become more suspicious, angry, afraid... name a societal ill.

prison and courts is so much more expensive than alcohol and drug treatment and after-school and mentoring programs - some druggies and alcoholics, from any socio-economic situation, are almost uncurable. the apparent higher number in poor communities is due to lack of opportunity for jobs and advancement.

this is/will be an important component to the future success of downtown and adjacent neighborhoods.

This is fantastic!!! Johio83, I also would love to see the Great Lakes Terminal Warehouse eventually turned into lofts. It's good to see a lot of positive things happening downtown.

dbw, I think I may be onto something here in terms of the low-income talk:

http://www.northwestohio.com/news/story.aspx?id=745049#.T57pmTJYudc

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/04/21/16M-project-unveiled-for-former-steam-plant.html

The first one says there will be 472 low income apartments in the plan. The second one says there will be 67 market rate apartments, and that "the Y will offer free or reduced membership to about 470 residents at three low-income apartment buildings downtown: Riverfront Apartments, Vistula Manor Apartments, and Port Lawrence Homes."

So, I think the first article is basically a case of somebody getting half the story and going to the presses before getting the facts straightened out.

Also, 472 apartments? How did the author of that article not stop to think about what that would be like? That would be about 50 more units than the Standart Lofts, Bartley Lofts, plus the plans laid out for the Berdan Building, Nicholas Building, and Spitzer Building, combined.

it's a hilariously bad mistake.

Hope this happens. Agree with Johio83. When I was apartment hunting just a month ago I was looking into some places downtown that were mentioned here but ultimately decided against it due to no having a good green place to take my dog for daily walks.

This should be great for revitalizing downtown.

Only government would think it's a good idea to build housing that's main purpose is to bring in people downtown to spend money and then move in people who don't pay the bills or have money to spend. This is an abortion from the start, fill it with low income folks and the Slyvania/Perrysburg people will stay away. As stated above there is a reason these people move to those areas.

10 years these will be the new "projects" and will be a horrible black eye on the city. This isn't slanted against poor people, just economic reality. Wait till a couple of Audi's and BMW's get windows smashed and see how all the hipsters like working out at the Y.

Nothing given for free or cheap is really appreciated, earning things with your own hard work makes then precious.

You'll find no argument here. As I've said, I am 100% in favor of the safety nets we have in place, because shit happens, and everybody has needed help at some point in their life. But you don't put people in need of financial support in the middle of a place that is in need of financial support. It's like putting a blind man with a deaf man and saying "alright, you guys take care of each other."

This is why I'm not for higher taxes for "infrastructural projects" and "community improvement" because it leads to stupid wasteful ideas like this.

The people playing with our money live in ivory towers far enough away from any fallout that as long as they and their buddies get paid off from our dollars they really don't care about the results.

^^How true. And get ready for the next shot across the bow that was just announced by the Metroparks authority - they want to extend the levy that was approved 10 years ago. Well of course they do! Nothing is ever more permanent than a temporary tax.

In my experience, the Metroparks is a really efficient organization. Things get taken care of, people return phone calls, rangers are available to help, the parks are clean and safe. They're the good guys in this town ... I'l be volunteering to help them get that levy passed. We get a lot of bang for our levy bucks with them.

Re: the levy - will the Toledo Botanical Garden, which has had several funding CUTS from the Metroparks - be a recipient of any levy money raised cuz if they ain't I'm gonna be working the other side of the street viola.

"This is why I'm not for higher taxes for 'infrastructural projects' and 'community improvement' because it leads to stupid wasteful ideas like this."

I'm not sure a stupid project--and I'm not saying this is--calls for the ridiculous generalization that funs for improving Toledo living and promoting downtown living is always a bad thing.

If a downtown fails, the weighs the entire region down. That has been proven again and again and again. If a downtown thrives, the entire region benefits as a result. These are facts. I hope you get on board.

If the point of the project is to get people downtown who can spend money to revitalize the city, but then the vast majority of these people have no money, please tell me how this will help? Only fools think rich yuppies are going to live next to or poor folk. I live in what was a decent neighborhood in West Toledo, nobody is moving from Perrysburg/Maumee into my neighborhood now and they sure as hell are not moving in the same complex with Section 8 residents. Drop the rose colored glasses and quit drinking the "we are all one people" kool aid. All the so called rich yuppies are not moving from happy suburbia to live across the hall from poor folk.

I've been too real cities they have an uptown/entertainment district(which is what this is trying to create) and NONE of them are centered around "project" buildings for section 8 residents. You see any housing projects along the Navy Pier in Chicago? How about in Times Square?

I'm confused. Where are they putting section 8 housing?

I was under the impression that the new Y would be serving the existing section 8 tenants already in the nearby apartments, not creating new housing for them. They would provide free memberships for those folks, while courting more office workers/paying members.

Holland, can you tell me why TBG chose to be affiliated with the Metroparks? When it happened, I sort of thought that it was guaranteed they would get less funding because they were a smaller entity being taken over by a much larger one. Was there some internal TBG disagreement that led to that decision? I've been curious ever since it happened.

And then one of the TBG directors was on a mission to close down the art cottages or something --? Can you help me out with some info? Thanks

As to the affiliation - I'm not on the inside to know the details, but my understanding is that they had no choice because of the City of Toledo and some decisions it made in regards to the gardens. It doesn't even make sense that TBG would voluntarily choose to affiliate if there was a risk of losing funding. Why would a being a smaller entity being taken over by a larger entity mean that they should have they their funding cut? I don't get the logic.

As to eliminating some of the on grounds associations, it was in part because of the funding cuts. It became necessary to make certain that those organizations contribute to the garden either through volunteer hours in gardening or working any of the events to help with the severe staff shortages that resulted from the cuts. Those events raise raise money. Some long time staff people lost their jobs. Some organizations did not want to make that commitment to the gardens and left instead. I must admit I had mixed feeelings about that.

So, while I applaud the greening of any City urban area and the Metroparks general mission I am not their biggest fan. I can't at this time support a new ADDITIONAL operating levy for their recent land aquisitions unless I hear some TRUE ENTHUSIASM and see some real financial support from the Metroparks for the Toledo Botanical Gardens.

In other words if the gardens won't be guaranteed a reasonable share in the ADDITIONAL levy money I wont support it and I will encourage others to do the same.

Okay, in regard to the Section 8 confusion that keeps popping up, refer to the two links I posted a little ways up. (April 30th at 3:52pm if you're having trouble finding them)

One article said it would be low-income (Section 8) housing, but that article had a lot of facts wrong. The other article states that the apartments will be market rate, but that the Y will be giving reduced cost or free membership to 470 low income residences around downtown.

So, in summation:
- There will be no low income housing in the Steam Plant project.
- The Y will be giving discounts to low income residents in the area.

and low income does not equal criminals. I feel like that should be pointed out. this notion of "thugs" coming to the Y because they encourage low income people frustrates me. While the Y in north toledo is in a dodgy neighborhood, once you go inside it's perfectly safe. The Y is a great organization and I'm sure the facilities in the steam plant will be properly managed.

I never said low income people were criminals I just said filling the area with low income folks will deter higher income people from moving into the area. Find me a thriving entertainment district that is centered around low income people.

I believe that the new Metroparks Executive Director is a big proponent of bringing natural areas into the urban area. I've heard that he has actually located his residence in the downtown area.

If you read to the bottom of the article in the link provided you can see how low Toledo Botanical Gardens ranks in importance within the Metroparks system and how tepid is the support, although TBG is part of the Metroparks system. It's just plain sad.

http://www.metroparkstoledo.com/metro/item.asp?item_id=4203

I'm confused about all the housing references, too. Isn't this thread about the Metroparks and a new park downtown?

@dbw8906

I completely agree with you about Section 8 housing and it scarring away yuppies.

Yuppies generally tend to follow the phase of the creative liberals/gays moving into a block, and they in turn follow the artists/hipsters who move in and put a coat of paint on a building and make it look like it has potential. This stuff tends to happen in phases, and has been widely written about and debated (most recently/notably by Richard Florida).

Section 8 housing, as you'd assume, throws a wrench in that whole process. You're 100% correct that cities that surround their downtowns with public housing tend to struggle with the revitalization. Take a look at St. Louis for some evidence.

But I haven't read anything saying "we are filling up this prime real estate with Section 8 housing." So I'm wondering if your complaint is moot. Furthermore, Toledo's downtown has grown by leaps and bounds in the last decade so you have to give them some credit. The two stadiums were homerun additions (pun intended), and the housing has been following it. We've even seen some clusters of success in the Warehouse District and Uptown. It's a long, 30ish-year process, but just look where downtown was a decade ago and you'll see that we've come a long way.

Toledo is only a Berdan restoration and 2-3 infill projects (on the cancerous surface parking lots) away from having a very, very nice Warehouse District. Gotta have some vision though!

/rant

Anniecski, yeah, it started as a thread about the new metropark downtown. But with the proximity to the renovating/expanding of Promenade Park, and the fact that the Steam Plant makes up one of the boarders of said park, they all kinda got thrown into the same conversation.

Well, hearing some rumblings about the Marina District... and if true, not good stuff.

What have you heard?

http://www.13abc.com/story/18385132/2012/05/14/dashing-pacific-confirm-delay-in-marina-district-construction

Hopefully this is the extent of it, that it's just taking longer than expected to secure tenants. My source portrayed it a little more negatively - that after having a hard time finding anchor tenants who were willing to take a risk in Toledo, Dashing Pacific was beginning to have second thoughts.

Are there any anchor tenant who want to move to Toledo - yesterday Whole Foods broke ground in Detroit, Chrysler said last week that their CEO would be moving his office downtown Detroit, Twitter the week before said they are opening in Detroit, etc.

Where are the companies who want to invest in Toledo? We here a lot of these Chinese trips but where is the proof of any companies coming to Toledo or even any American companies comming here?

Well, Chinese investors have already purchased the Docks, the Marina District, and the Park Inn, so it's obviously not just pipe dreams. This is just a matter of whether or not an entertainment district on the scale Dashing Pacific dreamed it can actually happen here.

Detroit, despite all of its hardships the last few years, is still a huge market. Its 2011 metro population was 13th in the country, as opposed to ours at 82nd, so it's not really fair to compare Detroit's ease in attracting companies to our difficulty in it.

Detroit, despite all of its hardships the last few *decades, is still a huge market.

crap, bolded that wrong. So, since I've been on here a couple years, I might as well find out now: is there a way to edit a post on here?

Beginning to wonder if any of these riverfront projects will happen before I am 6 feet under.

Well they've moved some dirt around at Promenade Park, so I can only assume there's SOMEthing going on there.

Of the four projects, my guesses:
Promenade Park: very simple, basically just a landscaping project - likelihood: very high.
Metropark: same as above - likelihood: very high.
Steam Plant: good sized project in a place that has had plenty of false starts before, but they actually have two major tenants this time around - likelihood: high.
Marina District: gigantic project, one of the biggest the downtown area has ever seen. Dashing Pacific seems to be thinking it may have bitten off more than it can chew for a city like Toledo. Likelihood that some development happens here: high. Likelihood that it happens on the scale originally planned: low.

You cannot edit your comments. You can only edit your posts that start threads. Allowing comment editing can lead to problems. Writing mistakes on message boards are okay.

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If the people running Dashing have any brain power left in their collective heads, they'll bail from the Marina District.

Personally, I just wish we could get at least 1 amphitheater built at the marina district between to road and the river (allow room for 3 more if demand allows), and let the local musicians & singers have a place to play and showcase their talent for free or for tips. Also allow street show talent, artist / crafting demos etc to showcase themselves around the vicinity of the amphitheater. Heck, include space for independent locally owned and operated businesses to put up a table and introduce themselves.

Nothing planned, just show up and do their thing, introduce themselves to the public. A great place for HockyFans Hockey League. A place for ACTIVE people doing ACTIVE things.

A place for the public to go that doesn't have to cost a thing. What I believe Toledo has always lacked, and therefore just plain misses the "community feel". It is not shocking why people hate it here, everything you do, everywhere you go, you have to spend $ (with the exception of our AWESOME Metroparks)! If your broke, the only option you have is to stay home, or go out and be reminded just how broke you are.

What the hell is there to be proud of when one can't afford to participate in anything?

Does EVERYTHING in this town have to be a money grab? If the answer is yes, then don't expect anything to change, for no amount of money can bring us back from the dead.

As a community we ARE dead!!!!

However, I do know of small pockets of individuals that still stubbornly show signs of enthusiasm for for a higher quality of life for the community, if we could just provide them an opportunity to showcase themselves, then we as a community WILL grow.

Provide a place for those willing to try, TO TRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!