Imagination Station wants another levy

Is there a place where you can see the books of Imagination Station? Wondering if they do an annual report? You would think they have too.

Should be if it recieves any public funding I would think.

Is this "another levy" or a renewal of the old one?

why not - i am surprised more for profit businesses don't apply for a levy. you know you have a good shot of it getting passed.

Yeah, and even if they vote it down twice... like we did with COSI, you can keep coming back and coming back until you get lucky. No doesn't mean no. Apparently it means "ask me again."

I just can't believe people continue to approve them. When are people going to be held accountable to balance a freaking budget?
I guess if your government doesn't have to balance a budget, why should anyone else.

jackie - what other non-profit groups do you think add value to the city? they should have a levy too.

I think a few questions that need answered before one considers voting for it is;

1) How many visitors did it have in 2011?
2) Did they ever promise to be self-sustaining?
3) What is the profit and loss?
4) Does it have any impact on the city?

Let them move to Perrysburg or Bowling Green.

You don't own properties that you would need to sell into this market, do you? Cause your loophole sounds great, otherwise. Of course, I could walk away and not mow the lawns at the houses. (That mowing thing is the Kevin Bacon of issues, I swear.)

Polly, instead of hitting the escape button, remain in Toledo, and vote against every single levy request.

I believe I am personally better off living in a city where the schoolkids all have access to a dedicated science museum. If you don't want to support anything that leads to any cultural betterment for young people, then you might be happier living well outside the city.

There are some very nice houses and good schools in Fulton and Henry Counties. Everything else, you have to personally research and arrange and pay for and drive to, which is an attractive tradeoff for some folks.

Kids aren't interested in science museums. If they were, there wouldn't be a need for a levy because they'd all want to go there instead of playing video games or roaming the streets.
Like posted above, let's look at the numbers. While having a science museum is a nice benefit of a city, it shouldn't and doesn't define the city. There isn't any better grades coming from kids that have visited the museum.
It's probably more like a place where parents can dump off their unruly kids to run around like little monsters and requires little parental supervision. Like a Chuck E. Cheese without the food.
How about parents do something new. Shut off the tv, shut off the video games. Quit texting and maybe open a book, go to the library, or even take their kids to a park or on a nature walk. You'll learn a lot more and maybe even improve the parent/child relationship.

My property taxes are half of what they would be in Detroit, and Toledo's services are far superior. I don't mind paying a little more in taxes for services that my family uses. Feel free to vote against everything if you wish to decrease your property values further.

Kids aren't interested in science museums? What kids are you talking about? I'll make a sweeping generalization myself and say that kids LOVE science museums.

A visit to the science museum isn't going to create better grades - that would be ridiculous. The entire idea is to get kids interested and excited about science - maybe some will actually carry that enthusiasm into a career in the future. The US hasn't even been in the top 10 worldwide for years when it comes to Math and Science scores; it's only a matter of time before we're left behind.

The problem is parents aren't interested in science museums. We are a nation of fat, lazy, TV watching, video game playing sloths. Dad knows more about the QB rating than he does about wood working or the migratory patterns of NW Ohio waterfowl while mom can repeat the View verbatim. You can't expect kids to give a shit about it if Mom and Dad don't. The problem has to be solved in the home, not at some taxpayer support sham.

The Imagine "if I could run without your tax dollars" Station isn't going to change any of that. NOBODY comes to Toledo because of it. The rust belt is no longer a tourist draw, see the numbers for Cleveland & Chicago if you don't believe me. And it sure isn't going to raise the math and science skills of TPS students.

Raise ticket prices to cover cost of operations, the people who care enough to take their kids now because they believe it is a worth while investment in their child's future will continue to do so. The people who don't go are going to continue to not go no matter what the ticket price will be. They probley would not get off their lazy asses to take them if it was free because there is no beer or ESPN there.

End public funds for private companies, it's the root of crony capitalism. No more bailouts for anybody.

*** Disclaimer I have taken the family there and I think it's a nice place and would even be interested to continue to go if you asked me to pay more and not forced me with the power of mob voting "justice".

Feel free to vote against everything if you wish to decrease your property values further.

Higher taxes ≠ higher property values.

My property taxes are half of what they would be in Detroit

And the city of Detroit is doing how well? How many [gainfully employed, civically-minded] people have fled? What's that median price figure for a house in Detroit?

According to the Michigan real estate listing service Realcomp, home sales in the Detroit area (including the city, Hamtramck, Harper Woods and Highland Park) were down 22 percent last month from April last year, bringing the number of properties sold in April to 539.

And now, with fewer properties on the market, prices are increasing, albeit slightly, with the median sale price up 2.8 percent to $9,000 in Detroit.

Woo-hoo. $9,000...and double the property taxes of Toledo (not to mention the crime and police department problems).

Detroit’s former police chief is lashing out about crime in the city. Speaking exclusively with WWJ’s Roberta Jasina, Warren Evans said crime is “over the top.”

“I’m sick and tired of the crime rate. The police have a budget of over $400 million a year. If they can’t produce better results with that kind of budget, then shame on them,” said Evans.

As for Imagination Station...whatever. Just like school levies and other pet projects, if the citizens reject it, they'll put another levy on...and another...and another...and another...until the damn thing passes. You know, like they did after COSI was defeated in 2006...then 2007...then it was up for a vote again in 2008.

Either that or Mayor McCheese will come up with funding from the "Super Secret Mayor's Stash of Magical Cash"....which never seems to appear to fix potholes or other necessities <shrug>.

A bit cynical about this particular project? You bet. And I love museums. But this thing has always felt like it has been shoved down my throat.

If they want to set themselves up to ensure survival, they can do what any reputable art museum or symphony does--start building a damn endowment fund.

I know this is very much a pipe dream, but what I'd like to see done:

1) move the Imagination Station to the Zoo. Put it on the other side of the main parking lot off the Trail. There's even that big warehouse there that could be used. (again, this is a pipe dream. I know nothing about that building, other than my assumption that it has been vacant for some time)

2) repurpose the former Cosi back to it's original intended use: retail outlets. Rent it back out to restaurants and shops. WIth Promenade Park's makeover, the Steam Plant being renovated, and the Fiberglas Tower redevelopment already underway, I think this seems like the logical next step.

I'm all for the Imagination Station. I just think it's a case of the wrong location.

oht, I don't think she meant that higher taxes = higher property values, but that paying higher taxes to allow for more things like a great zoo and the Imagination Station increase the quality of life in Toledo, thereby making it a more desirable place to live, and in turn raising property values.

Kids aren't interested in science museums.

My kids love Imagination Station. (We have a membership.)

If you pay attention to the schedule, there are a lot of interesting activities in addition to the regular exhibits. For example, my kids participated in a rocket building and launching event once. (The rockets were made out of empty 2 liter bottles and cardboard wings...it was a great kid-friendly physics lesson.)

Several of my kids classmates are participating in science day camps at Imagination Station this summer too.

*** Note: This post is not intended to say anything about whether tax dollars should be used for the Imagination Station. Rather, I was just pointing out that many kids are interested in science museums.

Ok, since I. Station is "for the kids" I guess those of us who are against another levy should just pass it, or move to Fulton or Henry County.

I have another idea, why don't you folks who are for all these levies, move out of Toledo?

How many times would a kid really want to go "see the science" in their lifetime really? After 1 visits is their really any point to it? When they opened they promised self sufficiency and they sucked up a really nice prime spot to do it in as well. They could of bussed kids anywhere in the city to go to a museum, heck they can go to the art museum and probably get more variety or at least something new to see every year. That spot should have been reserved for retail, and I'm not talking the stupid rip off prices of Portside where after the novelty wore off business's were cutting their wrists to get out of there. That would be a real nice place to have a Table Forty 4 style restaurant with a nice view of the river, Put in a nice internet cafe, a small boating / fishing store, attract some small mid size boats to the docks right behind the place. Open uf the shoreline from there to and past the MLK (Cherry) bridge to fishing, incorporate activities from Promenade park with the retailers in that facility. It had so much potential for attracting a multitude of possibilities that will never happen as long as Cosi or Imagination station control it, and not very well if they come seeking handouts again. I still say Toledo does nothing to maximize its potential advantage of having a major river running through it.

The total cost of this levy for us is about $5/year. I can spend that much on one specialty coffee. I believe the arts and sciences, zoo, art museum, imagination station, etc. add to the quality of life here in Toledo.

Add in the Huntington Center and Fifth Third Field and we are appealing to a wide variety of people in this community.

Just because I personally do not use all of the above venues does not make them useless. I am but one person in a community of many.

Sorry to me its like using a corvette to bus kids to school. Its a waste of prime retail space, that would serve better function as retail and attract middle - upper class boaters to the docks of downtown. They should move it to another location that has lower maintenance and operating costs.

In the cities I love, they wouldn't use the riverfront for "prime retail space". Sounds like a waste to me.

No one has ever accused our politicians of using sound business practices when approving various sites.

researcher, I'm not sure, but I'm thinking your point is that riverfronts are best used with nature? If so, we have and will have that. Especially with the metropark going in just south of the Highlevel Bridge. And we have International Park and Promenade Park for public spaces along the riverfront. We have corporations with headquarters along the riverfront. Retail is the one thing we really don't have any of. We have the back parking lot of Ft Industry Square and the Docks on the other side of the river.

Or I guess there could be confusion in terminology. In real estate terms, "retail" usually means anything where money would change hands, be it a shop, a restaurant, cafe, book store, anything. So saying we want retail there doesn't necessarily mean we want an outlet mall or something like that.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Politics/2012/06/07/2-Toledo-councilmen-to-ask-for-support-of-1-mill-recreation-levy.html

Yet another levy, "for the kids." This would simply be SMH material, if I didn't actually own property here and have to pay for all this wasteful government pork.

I realize these people only care about being re-elected, but do they actually realize all these levies are going to increase foreclosures, and further discourage companies from investing here?

We've already used the I. Station property for "prime retail space" and it miserably flopped.

Ya know, I really don't have a problem with that. I hear so much whining and complaining about how drab and dreary Toledo is, so when the city attempts to spend money to fix that, people complain that they don't want to have to pay for that. Do you want to have your cake, or do you want to eat it?

6th, I think the general mentality there is that Portside came at a time when downtown was declining fast and there wasn't an interest. Public opinion across the country has changed drastically since then (really starting in the early 90's), and focus is drifting back to downtown areas.

Companies went bankrupt in the 90's trying to push phones where you could build in a screen to see each other during the conversation. Last year, Skype, which does exactly that, sold for over a billion dollars. Just because something failed once doesn't mean it can't succeed when the conditions are right.

Johio, I'll make you an offer. We meet someplace for lunch during an early weekend afternoon. After lunch, we'll drive around various parts of the city and actually count how many of Toledo's beloved city parks are totally empty.

I'm not talking about the metro parks, those are a separate entity, actually are used, and I believe receive their own levy funds.

Now, I'm not saying that people should vote for either levy.

However, strictly comparing one to the other, it seems like parks & rec would have the potential to benefit a larger number people than Imagination Station.

That being said, some of the shennanigans that hockeyfan described would make it difficult for me to want to support parks & rec.

6th, I guess that's true, I was thinking more along the lines of the metroparks

Johio, a problem you may be overlooking, is how would merchants keep the derelicts and other hobos, who we all know regularly wander around downtown, away from of the shopping areas? Portside being a shopping area now, would flop just like it did with the initial attempt.

Also, despite a few thousand people moving downtown in the past decade, the wealth of the Toledo area has mover farther away from downtown since Portside was built in the 1980's.

I'm a firm believer that if there was money to be made via high-end retail (or anything else high-end) downtown, Toledo gov't people and these few thousand residents wouldn't have to beg for it to arrive.

Cosi/IS was placed where it is, for the city leaders didn't want what they labeled "prime real estate" which they spent millions developing, sitting empty and being the laughingstock of downtown.

If we even should have COSI/IS all (which I prefer we didn't have COSI/IS), I agree with others here, that it should be located at the art museum or zoo. Another idea is to relocate it at the Toledo Technology Academy, which already is attached to the mostly empty former DeVillbiss High School.

The same Chinese people buying properties like the Docks, Marina District, and Park Inn, likely also would buy Portside.

I grew up in Trilby and it was part of Washington Township at that time. We had great parks all through the township, well maintained with a person in charge on the property. As a kid I loved going to the park.

When I look at the same parks today that are now in the city I want to cry. No one pays any attention to any of the parks today and I'm not so sure they are safe for children to attend and have fun.

I, for one, would vote for a park and recreation levy. We as citizens need to think about our young people and the options they have today. I much prefer a well maintained park, with organized arts and crafts to an abandoned looking piece of property.

I, as a member of this community, have an obligation to see our youth have alternatives to guns and violence. Call me an optimist but I believe it could make a difference.

The problem is probably just Toledo in general. The downtown area is small enough with plenty of non-waterfront space, within walking distance, for prime retail. Make the waterfront a destination (unless we want to outdo the Mall of America with the Mall of the Universe, or something!).

In my comment after the one you just quoted, "Or I guess there could be confusion in terminology. In real estate terms, "retail" usually means anything where money would change hands, be it a shop, a restaurant, cafe, book store, anything. So saying we want retail there doesn't necessarily mean we want an outlet mall or something like that."

So agreed, I'm not looking for a mall or anything like that at all. When I'm saying prime retail location, I'm envisioning something like a nice restaurant, maybe an ice cream shop next door, or an outdoor cafe... things like that right along the waterfront.

I understood you. I think those things are nice, as well, but I would prefer them in the context of something on a grander scale.

"I, as a member of this community, have an obligation to see our youth have alternatives to guns and violence. Call me an optimist but I believe it could make a difference." - Call me a hater but the kids wrapped up in guns/drugs/violence don't have parents who care for them to keep them out of guns/drugs/violence let alone take them to IS.

There have been some decent points made in this thread but that is 110% weak sauce. IS is a optional profit based business, not an outreach center.

Jackie, we already have activities provided at the Metro Parks, and there are plenty of them around the the area...activities included. We also have a library system, boys & girls clubs, cosi, swimming pools, on and on.

I recall seeing a couple hundred people in certain parks just 10-20 years ago. Now, the same parks are either completely empty, or at most a dozen kids playing basketball.

We don't need another levy to provide kids something to do. Many parks already have basketball courts and baseball fields that aren't being used. Kids just don't gather in groups like that to play nowadays, and another levy isn't going to change that.

Johio, I am for the city selling COSI and the new owners developing doing whatever they wish with the property. Maybe what you envision there would happen. I don't think either retail or more restaurants would show a profit, and if it does, it will cannibalize The Docks. Mostly, I'd like to see the city be forced to close COSI/IS, sell the property, and allow private owners do what they wish to do with it without additional levies.

I agree that it should be private. Same with the Erie Street Market. And I certainly don't think the Port Authority should be building warehouses on the old Jeep site to compete with private companies that already rent out warehouses.

But a point I actually feel differently about is additional restaurants cannibalizing other downtown restaurants. I think people in this city are gradually getting more comfortable with the idea of going downtown for some entertainment. And as that continues, I think more downtown options will just mean more downtown patrons. So while I do agree that your theory would hold true when spread over the Toledo area as a whole, I think all it would mean as far as downtown is a larger customer base coming down.

I would like to see some sort of river boat cruises or lake cruises with Toledo being either a major destination or a starting point for it.

http://www.sba.gov/

http://www.hoursmap.com/c/toledo-oh/fifth+third+bank-hours-locations-s1287450

The above links should provide you a good place to begin making your wishes come true.

Haha, guess there's no better test of one's resolve than the "put your money where your mouth is" challenge!

And taking it to a completely serious place, I've thought about that kind of thing. A while back, we were talking about how, should upso decide to try weekend ours sometime for Grumpy's, just let us know and we'll come make sure it's successful. (Really, I'd be in there for a grilled cheese with bacon every weekend). And I started thinking about that more, and message boards like this spawn so many ideas that get a lot of support, and then that's where they end. But really, these could be a place to build support, and then take that next step and actually DO it.

So you found a house that had already lost half of it's value, and you're upset that it's dropped another $3K over the span of a couple months? And, you do know that housing prices plunging was actually at the root of the national recession that started in 2007 and we still haven't fully recovered from, right? This is hardly a Toledo-centric issue here.

I heard on the radio today that ther may be as many as 7 levies on the November ballot!
Holy shit, does it ever end? Worst thing is the number of non property owners that get to vote the wallets of the property owners.
I fear that Toledo has passed the tipping point and actually has more "takers" then "makers".

How do you know that you lost that value? Sounds more like you over paid in the first place...

To me this isn't about the amount of money, but the thought process behind it.
When these places cannot make ends meet, it seems like the first step is asking for a levy. Then, they threaten that if the levy doesn't pass, they'll have to make cuts or kill a baby seal, etc.
Why don't they make some reasonable cuts, show us that, then ask for a levy as a last resort?

I vote for killing baby seals cause they are so yummy.

Plus you can use their blubber for oil. Oil crisis = averted.

Why fund this? Why fund the city parks? Why fund the metro parks? Why fund the zoo? Why fund the state parks? Why fund the national parks?

Mr. G the things you mentioned are not for profit business.

Please do list all the other companies in the area that can't turn a profit and how much of your tax money you are willing to give them to keep them in business. Inquiring mind would like to know how in Toledo is too big to fail?

Wait you forgot the play the "but it's for the KIDZ!!!" card from the bottom of the deck, so I played it for you.

Okay, companies that we give money to when they can't turn a profit... I'll start us off with just a couple
AIG
Bank of America
JP Morgan Chase
Citigroup
Wells Fargo
Goldman Sachs
Morgan Stanley
PNC
Capital One

GM
Chrysler

This is my problem with the modern Progressive movement, it's all "*&^&% those evil rich men getting unfair advantages and taking tax dollars that belong to the people, damn those robber barons using government to get a leg up... wait unless it's some place I like".

If IS board members & corporate officers want my tax dollars then they can work for free till they are self supporting.

End public funds for private companies, even the ones you like taking your kids too.

Well, I see funding something like IS a little differently than bailing out a bank. A bank's only purpose is to create more wealth, it doesn't actually provide anything. So them needing money is the equivalent of "I'm not doing the only thing I'm supposed to be doing, so do it for me." Imagination Station, in my mind, is more like a museum or even school. It's offering a fun educational experience, but it needs money to run itself.

John83

I agree. And the funding for an entire year is about $5.71.

JO - I could find lots of people who would argue that banks provide home loans, funding for small business, run the programs for the little pieces of plastic we all swipe for the purchase of goods, hold money in accounts for safe keeping for fiscal transactions backed by the FDIC for safe keeping, administer college tuition savings plans...

Look I'm not fan of the banksters, but we vilify the EVIL CEO's that work there but shovel money to the EVIL CEO's at the companies we "like". Can't have it both ways and expect anything to ever be fixed.

But my point was that a bank's purpose is to create more wealth. A place like Imagination Station's purpose is to entertain and educate children. A bank not making money would be the equivalent of Imagination Station not letting kids in anymore - they wouldn't be doing the one thing they are in business to do.

You forgot
Solyndra
Beacon Power
Fisker Auto

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/06/08/2-on-Toledo-council-seek-levy-for-city-parks-recreation.html

There are many holes in their argument.

Last year when the city was trying to use 10k to help the symphony NYC trip, Steel said there is more to recreation than adult softball teams?

From the article: While most cities dedicate between 4 and 5 percent of their operating budgets to parks and recreation, Toledo spends only 1 percent, according to research sponsored by the Recreation District Steering Committee, a group set up by Mr. Steel and Ms. Webb that includes representatives from agencies such as the YMCA/JCC of Greater Toledo and Toledo Public Schools.

Spending on park maintenance in Toledo is about $3,800 an acre below that of similar park and recreation agencies in the Midwest, the committee's report states.

Toledo's parks staff is 90 people short when compared with similar municipalities, Ms. Webb said.

---

Maybe Toledo is spending too much in other areas, and simply needs to allot more of the existing revenue to parks and recreation.

What needs to happen is there needs to be a survey, and the city parks not being fully utilized, need to be sold and then the city could spend more "money per acre" maintaining it's parks.

They could have placed all the displaced garbage workers into the parks department. Council determines what gets funded, so the fact that the parks department is 90 people short is the fault of council being unwilling to allocate the funding.

I think something people against this levy need to let others know, is the Metro Parks are county-based and not part of this levy.

Good luck getting them to give up any of their city parks. People will fight tooth and nail for something they don't ever use, plan on using of have any need for, just because they already have it.

plan on using OR have any need for

I have and will continue to give to the Metro-Parks as my family and I use them on a weekly basis. Of I all complain about T-Town the metro parks are a fantastic resource I would hate to see diminish or go away.

Nobody had to mob justice their way into my pocket book throught the ballot box to do so. And as I've said before I think IS is a "nice" place and would pay higher ticket prices if I though the service would continue to use it.

It's the principle of it all, I'm tired of giving money that could go to roads, schools, and safety to pay private business people who can't run a good organization. I mean Tony Packo's is pretty Toledo iconic, should the city have stepped in and given the family more money when they where in trouble too? What would Klinger do?

If I was Klinger I would have come to Toledo and helped promote the business.

The Metropark is about the only levy I will support. They are a treasure.
As for city parks.....yeah, we'll fix them up and a week later they will be vandalized and trashed.

They must've figured no levy party would be complete without them included.

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/06/08/Library-eyes-levy-that-would-be-combination-of-renewal-new-funds.html