Student test score "scandal"

Not surprising. If it is a convenient club to further bash the emaciated black and blue public education system and teachers, although it is really the administrators' responsibility. I can already see the outcome: more pressure on teachers, lower wages, benefits, and still no expectations for parents to prepare their kids to be teachable. Sad all around.

My favorite part of the article is the term "habitually truant":

"habitually truant" -- which means they missed without excuse at least five consecutive days, seven days in a month, or 12 days in a school year.

12 days in school year defines a student as "habitually truant." How many paid sick days does a tenured teacher receive each year?

"12 days in school year defines a student as 'habitually truant.' How many paid sick days does a tenured teacher receive each year?"

By the definition that you provided, one would assume that "sick" would be a valid excuse to keep you from being habitually truant.

("habitually truant" -- which means they missed without excuse at least five consecutive days, seven days in a month, or 12 days in a school year.)

I fail to see what teacher sick leave and truancy have to do with each other.

I fail to see how accountability (at long last) has anything to do with a "convenient club to further bash."
OR, what bad acts by teachers and administrators has anything to do with a different problem: lame parents.

Until we hold parents accountable, new ways to get more funding will occur.
Keep approving those levys.

micah writes: "I fail to see what teacher sick leave and truancy have to do with each other."

You gotta be kidding Micah...

If educators are saying that the "results" of students who fail to show up 12 days or more a year are not valid because there is obvious lack of commitment on the behalf of the student isn't it arguable to say a teacher who can't seem to make it into work 12 days or more a year shows the same lack of commitment? That's what it says to me.

Sure there will be a year with exceptions but a teacher who regularly needs that much time off year after year is not fulfilling their duty to the students nor is a contract stipulation allowing that much time off reasonable value. You get paid to do the job! My taxes pay for students to be in their seats and teachers at the front of the room.

My mom works for a local school system and her sick/vacation days are the same. So for example if you wanna take a vacation day you have to use a sick day.

Danneskjold - I think you missed micah's point about it being 12 unexcused student absences a year that makes a student habitually truant.

Not 12 days absent in general.

Agreed there is a big difference between a student who does not show because it was more fun to, say, stay home and play video games and a teacher who is legitimately sick and responsibly calls into work so that a substitute can be called in for the day.

Students who miss school for valid reasons (illness, hospitalization, and so on) are not considered truant.

There are attendance provisions that work against students with illnesses, and if they miss too much school (even for a valid health reason) they will not be promoted to the next grade.

Agreed there is a big difference between a student who does not show because it was more fun to, say, stay home and play video games and a teacher who is legitimately sick and responsibly calls into work so that a substitute can be called in for the day.

That isn't the point and you know it. The question was "How many paid sick days does a tenured teacher receive each year?" somewhat rhetorically asked in the same paragraph where the author points out that "12 days [absence] in [one] school year defines a student as 'habitually truant.'" Implying that in some cases teachers in the TPS system might be malingering, staying home and playing video games rather than reporting for work - while getting paid to do so and adding the additional expense of hiring a substitute teacher.

According to Toledo Public Schools - Employment Benefits, I discover that Teachers are granted 15 sick leave days per year, and employees may receive financial payment for unused sick leave upon retirement, and in addition to that TPS teachers are also given some personal leave days. Each employee is granted two days without question, annually.

And, by the way, if a school teacher doesn't use their sick days they'll get paid for those days when they retire. I suppose a teacher with perfect health could accumulate a full year's pay that way.

I've been wondering who was going to start this thread. I'm also wondering just how much difference these shenanigans will make to the school's report card. Do you suppose anyone at TPS has the math skills to actually figure this out?

Makes you wonder how other school systems can not cheat and yet still receive good scores.

I made the following comment in 2007 here on TT..... and I still believe it sums up the current education climate in the United States. The quality of education will always be in direct porportion to the priority the person being educated puts upon it.

No state or federal legislation will ever be successful in "raising the bar" until the person to be educated values education.

Perhaps this is a very negative view, but growing number of students that have absolutely no interest in learning or putting forth the effort required to be successful makes the future of the nation seem pretty dim.

When society decides and sells the idea that education is more valuable than entertainment, education will improve.

To reply. From my point of view,the problem is not the system, the teachers, money or the buildings, but these things are being blamed for parents who are raising kids who don't go to school or who are unteachable. It is all a red herring to mask the real problems of poor parenting.

Wonder what Coward thinks of this scandle? I almost bet he approves of making the system look good and continuing the status quo.

What a sad life you live.

Everyone who agrees with this should be clicking the ! next to that comment.

This story is yet one more reason to quit giving these liars & thieves @ tps more $$$.

I'll turn it around. The lazy, stingy arrogant parents and children don't deserve the excellent education system and teachers they have, so by all means don't support it.

I live in a school district which doesn't fudge their numbers. And I support all of their levies.

But I wonder how Toledo can ever be a growing city again without a good public school system.

Bluntly, the parenting is not going to improve this year. Next year isn't looking good either.

I do not begrudge the school teachers their salary, benefits or ample vacation time - until the system no longer works and the teachers demand more money and better benefits... and the school system still doesn't work. Then it's the parents fault, the administrator's fault, the student's fault - it's everyone's fault except the teacher's fault.

That is grade A, top quality stable dressing, and as much as I've had to shovel in my life I know when I see it.

Let the school teachers get paid for their success and see if that helps correct the situation.

No state or federal legislation will ever be successful in "raising the bar" until the person to be educated values education.

That isn't true. The State of Ohio can adjust the bar in one direction or another independently of what (if anything) the people to be educated value, or what anyone else values for that matter. They have done in the past and will do so in the future.

State legislature doesn't want a solution unless that solution helps them get reelected. Otherwise they could not possibly care less about failing schools and illiterate students.

Priceless analysis by anonymouscoward. I couldn't agree more.

AC, I feel like what you write should make me laugh, but it rings so true I feel like crying...

Wow. I found myself mostly nodding at AC's blistering commentary. However, where is the happy ending? AC will never sell this script unless everything gets resolved in 94 minutes and there is catharis and a hero and a car chase.

I agree with most of what A/C says but I don't send my kids to a religious school for "indoctrination" but because of higher quantity education they receive. Religious views should be taught at home, not school. The school they attend is not the type of church we attend, I'm not paying for chapel.

Btw employers don't care if you believe in creation or Darwin, your bias against religion taints one of the better arguments I've seen on education. Where you attend on Sunday (or don't) doesn't affect your ability to earn an income.

Try working at Chick-fil-A these days if you don't believe in Christian doctrine. Or a number of other places.

Also, while not ALL Christian schools are bad, here's some examples of bias and why this voucher shit sucks:

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/louisiana-legislator-upset-school-vouchers-
(WHAT? You mean my tax dollars will go to MUSLIM schools?)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/01/us-education-vouchers-idUSL1E8H10AG20120601
"The school willing to accept the most voucher students -- 314 -- is New Living Word in Ruston, which has a top-ranked basketball team but no library. Students spend most of the day watching TVs in bare-bones classrooms. Each lesson consists of an instructional DVD that intersperses Biblical verses with subjects such chemistry or composition."

"At Eternity Christian Academy in Westlake, pastor-turned-principal Marie Carrier hopes to secure extra space to enroll 135 voucher students, though she now has room for just a few dozen. Her first- through eighth-grade students sit in cubicles for much of the day and move at their own pace through Christian workbooks, such as a beginning science text that explains "what God made" on each of the six days of creation. They are not exposed to the theory of evolution."

Again, I stand by my charge of "free government money without oversight to brainwash kids".

Not to worry. Those dumb asses coming out of those religious voucher schools will never be able to hold a decent job. They'll leave job openings for the truely educated ones. Or work at a Chic-fil A deepfryer for their entire career.

One of the important things that is taught mostly in science classes and not in the reading/writing/math/citizenship is that actions have consequences. Yeah, in math class 2 + 2 = 4, but nobody questions that, it just is. Physics gives you "every action has an equal and opposite reaction", if you push a penny with your finger, it's pushing back on you. Chemistry gives you balanced equations and "matter can't be created or destroyed", you learn that if you burn gasoline (octane) in your car, you take 2 C ₈ H ₁₈ molecules and react them with 25 O ₂ (oxygen) molecules to get 16 CO ₂ (carbon dioxide) + 18 H ₂ O (dihydrogen monoxide) molecules. Then you go "oh hey, if all this oil was tucked away underground and we're now pumping it out and burning it, in order to balance the global equation, we need the same amount put BACK at the same time else we're dumping lots of CO ₂ in the atmosphere." Then you understand human activity is definitely an influence on global warming, because otherwise all these hydrocarbons wouldn't be pumped or dug out of the ground and burned.

But since science is offensive to radical Christians and Jesus rode dinosaurs and the Earth was created in 6 days a little over 6000 years ago, none of this stuff is true, it happens because God says so, that's what Junior is taught.

Oh please tell us Coward what to think and believe, we would be lost without your ultimate wisdom.

Another Imagination Station or two, based on basic courses will help everything. Maybe one on literature, one on math,even one on parenting, and of course, keep the one on science. Increase the funding for each. This will change kid's interest in schooling, therefore increasing knowledge and test scores.
Or, find a better way to hide attendance records to boost test scores.

Ya know, I think you've been reported a few times in this thread for being a dick as well as making yourself look like an even bigger asshole with an ax to grind vs. me. Please, by all means, continue your self-destruction and derailing of threads. I have plenty of popcorn to share with the class.

I'm sure you will continue to share with us what we all should be thinking whether I ask you to or not. I think you started this pissing match with some crude and abrasive remarks directed at and about me to begin with, I do tend to hold a grudge by the way.

Not all kids can learn from sitting in a desk staring at a chalkboard and reading out of a book. Whether that is a nature or nurture issue I will not really speculate other than to say both feed back on the other in my book.

Of course, the ONLY way to teach kids is regiment them strictly by year and make sure the kids who are ahead are held up by the kids who are behind, teaching to the lowest common denominator, pretty much up until junior high or high schools where they finally have "honors" and/or AP classes. We certainly can't put the kids who are ready for algebra in 5th grade in an algebra class, and we can't put the kids who still aren't getting the difference between "your" and "you're" in a lower English class.

This leads to the kids who are so far ahead being bored and acting out and becoming disillusioned with the system, the vast majority of the kids hating on those kids for blowing the curve and making them look bad, and a pile of "stupid" kids coasting along and not getting the kind of individual attention they need to try to twist the things they are not understanding into a shape that fits into their mental framework. I've seen ADULTS who flat out panic at "story" problems, and there's no excuse for that, it's just that for them story problems are a square peg and their mind is a round hole, and nobody sat down with them and showed them how to take the story problem and reframe it against their own experiences and whittle away at it until it pops through the hole. Instead it's "OH MY GOD I CAN'T DO THIS!" until that develops into a huge mental block.

You're the one dragging stuff over here from the wild uncivilized playground of /p/. Enjoy being reported again.

Wow a post with no profanity, and one I do agree with.

Oops you got a post in before I did, I do agree with your post about education though.

If Jr. wants me to tone it down, I will, but I won't take orders from you Cowardly. But you are right in a sense that I should contain my more scathing comments to the /p/ section and will try to do so in the future.

A History of Educational Bullshit, by AnonymousCoward (abridged version)

I blame the churches, corporations, Republicans and the Tea Party...it's all their fault. The end.

Unfortunately, coward could never be that succinct. It doesn't provide him with the opportunity to show everyone how clever he thinks he is (because nothing says clever like a circuitous, profanity-laden monologue). I do though enjoy seeing the hypocrisy of you complaining about someone else being a "dick" and "dragging stuff over here from the wild uncivilized playground of /p/".

I'm soooooooooooooo sorry that you're offended. I thought I was doing a public service by voicing my opinion in what I thought was a humorous style. After all, people pay good money to go to a theatre and hear similar spiels from comedians.

TL;DR: Lighten up, Francis.

Chick-fil-a is a private entity, my work doesn't employee me because I am a member of a traditional family and if Chick-fil-a was to fire someone over who they shared their bed with they would be in for a costly lawsuit.

I agree that some Christian schools are horrid, their are some Christian schools in the Toledo area are not even accredited. Why you would send you child to a place where they can't even walk away with a diploma is beyond me. But I don't really see how it's any different than a parent who lets their child goto failing TPS school when Ohio has vouchers to get you out of poor preforming schools.

Now that they are no longer there I'm fine with saying where they went. Emanuel Christian School. Freshman learning Plato doesn't happen at TPS.

I am sure that designing a challenging yet interesting educational program is a task every single teacher faces. There is no simple answer. Yes, I joke about the Imagination Station, but it's not because of the educational value.
I think education is a wide range of things and inputs. First, it has to start at home. Interest, guidance, etc. from parents and loved ones. Second, it's more than just being strapped to a chair/desk and being fed monotone lectures for 8 hours. It's interaction, participation, things to compare or use in everyday life, etc. 3rd, there is a huge part of students having a want to learn. By treating it as a necessary part of life in order to advance themselves. If they don't care, you could offer them the greatest ciriculum in the world and they still wouldn't learn.
As with many things, there are so many kids with different levels or intelligence, interest, etc. that having one cirriculum can't please or satisfy the needs of everyone. Sure, there will be kids falling behind and some will need to be challenged more, but that is not the majority. Additional programs to address both of those groups is also necessary.
This may sound like a eutopian plan, but really it's basic. Apparently the current plan isn't doing so well and maybe a change is exactly what is needed. I am not an expert, but I am a parent. Of course changes wouldn't be based on my opinions. To make the best changes, teachers, parents, and school board personnel would have to meet and make suggestions.

Good ideas Coward, I think Germany has year round schools based on your proposed schedule.

For a moment there, I thought I was reading something about Hitler's master plan. lol

Ok,ok... enough of all this bickering and freedom from religion and nazis and being "put down a year."

Mexican restaurant.

Every helicopter parent wants their kid tagged as special ed or learning disabled?

Really? It was hard to take anything seriously that came after that.

P.S. My kids go to a school with a balanced calendar. It isn't quite year round school, but they have a shorter summer break with more breaks during the school year. They have a week off between each marking period. I love that schedule, and it seems to work well for the kids.

Devil’s advocate here.

Let’s just do away with public education all together. NO tax payer money (local, state, federal) would be used for education. We’d all get a tax break and have to pay the full price of our children’s school.

I pay over $11k per kid now and am responsible for drop off and pick up every day; why should I have to pay for your kid’s education and transportation. Also, if a child isn’t working out, can’t follow the rules, is HDAD or simply doesn’t get it, he’s asked to leave our school. I’m not sure where they’d go, but I’m sure someone else would take their money. If you can’t afford school for your kids than you have to home school them. Pretty simply, no tax payer money, no unions, competition between schools…perfection right?
</sarcasm>

Sounds pretty selfish, Sensor.

Is it always about the money? Just wondering........

Ryors seems to be that way about headstart.

Well this thread has been Godwinned as well... so now we see who really contributes and who is stinking up the place, once again.

A school system, like any other organization with expenses and revenue, exists on a spreadsheet. Money in, money out. Because the utopian socialist drug dream of the hippies will never be realized in the sober daylight of today's world, it always will be about the money, to some extent, even though money is not the mission. You can talk about any education model you want, but sooner or later you have to fund it. And there we are.

A neighbor (extremely religious, believes that Planned Parenthood is trying to take over the schools and believes in Creationism) home schooled her brood. Until they flunked repeatedly their State mandated evaluation tests. She was forced to put her kids in public schools and they were two years behind.

The Springfield School system tutuored them to get them up to speed. The kids werent really all that dumb. It was Mom. She honestly believes that all you really need to know in this life comes from the Good Book and everything else is mostly irrelevant.

Another neighbor home schooled her girls and they both went went on to college. Mom2 - she could have been classified as a "helicopter" parent. In her eyes her kids had all kinds of "sensibilities" that made public schools too raucus and unfit a place. They were so sheltered I was amazed that they adjusted to college as well as they did. Both moved far from home as soon as they could though.

Some parents are equipped to home school, others most definitely are not. Without State oversight of education there would be hell to pay for the lack of standards and measurable outcomes.

Bravo, AnonymousCoward.

Kids should be tested for placement, and if they are at the age for 5th grade but test for 7th grade math and only 4th grade reading, they should be put in those classes.

Back in the late 1960s Whitmer High School tried something like this. As I remember it, subjects were divided into five phases, with Phase 5 being the highest. A student could be in phase 2 math, phase 5 english and phase 3 science according to their own abilities. The system seemed to work pretty well unless a student ended up in phase 1, which was the dumping ground. Once a student landed in that phase 1 area, there was no returning to civilization. I think those kids got afternoon passes for work release - agricultural collection assistant or something.

I like AC's ideas about school solutions. I'd also abolish football, basketball and team sports in general. Effectively, anything that provides an athletic scholarship goes the way of the passenger pigeon. Put the emphasis on scholastic achievement.

Although I don't know if true "year round" schools would fly around here, I think it could be beneficial to at least move to something like the balanced calendar I mentioned above that's used at my kids' school.

I have a friend who teaches in a public school system near Indianapolis that is on a balanced calendar system. Actually, she had to report to the classroom today. (I don't remember exactly what day the students start, but today was the first day back for the teachers.)

There may be some push back from parents who resist change at first, but it can be implemented in a public school setting.

"I'd also abolish football, basketball and team sports in general. Effectively, anything that provides an athletic scholarship goes the way of the passenger pigeon. Put the emphasis on scholastic achievement."

Hell just froze over. I agree with madjack.

Still wearing my advocacy hat…
Holland – for you homeschooled neighbors, who is the government to force state mandated test? If a parent wants to keep their kids home and teach them Earth is 6000 years old, soy makes you gay and fluorite is a government conspiracy, good for them. I’m sure Liberty College will all be too happy to take them.

In the meantime, I can make the chose to have my kids learn to think for themselves and the scientific method. I’m sure they won’t have any trouble getting into a good college.

In the end, we will have produced educated adults who will have no problems getting jobs. It’s just a matter if that job is at Chick-Fil-A or a Fortune 100…

How about the kids like my brother that played sports and still carried a 4.0 in school. He got an athletic scholarship and academic scholarship.

I went to school with quite a few kids that played sports and still carried a decent GPA. We are talking 3.5-4.0 their whole athletic and academic career.

Ifrost2125: I know that some students can maintain a good gpa and play sports. However, I would prefer that my tax dollars be spent on academics. (My son played high school sports.) Its my opinion that they are extra curricular activities and should be funded largely by the parents of the students who participate.

High schools are feeders for college sports and college sports are feeders for pro sports. I really dislike the whole system (see Penn State as an egregious example). There is too much emphasis on athletics and too little on academics.

SensorG - As a former employer I looked to the diplomas applicants held as some kind of a marker of possible intellect and performance. Some of my employees did not go on to post secondary education. A "Home Schooling" diploma, with no unbiased verification of achievement, would be worthless regardless of the intent of the home schooler.

I understand the devil's advocate role you're playing here. My response is tempered by the front row seat I've had watching my neighbors home school. Maybe you're right. We need to let it happen unfettered. Then when we have a generation of uneducated young adults trying to gain or maintain employment will we begin again to value public schools and teachers.

Don't most schools have Pay-to-Play policies now?

My kids aren't in junior high or high school yet, so I don't know all the ins and outs of how that works. But I've heard other parents talking about how expensive it is to have kids involved in school sports these days.

No, it froze over when Liney and maddie admitted to agreeing with ME on some things. The sudden spike in gas prices today was Satan buying up everything in order to keep the room temperature down there above that of dry ice.

I wouldn't abolish sports, but they would be 100% pay-to-play. If you want Junior on the squad, you're paying full price. And academic requirements will still be in place, too.

mom2 - Sports DO cost parents, including uniforms and physicals and some personal equipment. But there are still facilities to build and maintain, many types of infrastructure equipment and coaches salaries. Sports fees don't come any where near 100% of the cost underwriting. Just off the top of my head some examples are track surfacing for track and field, security costs for game night, stadium bleachers, turf maintenance, tennis court nets, the list goes on. You get the idea.

I'm sorry but "sports" can teach you things outside of what you can learn outside of standardized testing. Trust, being dependable every play, teamwork, leadership, and determination can not be learned through classroom instruction. I learned that if I wasn't in my place on the field doing my job my teammates would suffer loss or physical pain. I learned that doing my best was key to everyone on the team succeeding and that I didn't want to be the weak link to cause everyone to fail. These are real life skills that make an strong employee and overall quality person.

I do agree that parents should shoulder more of the cost but eliminate sports would go further to making public schools just flat out "testing centers". Plus are kids not fat enough already? Taking away an athletic opportunity is not going to help the problem.

And those same things can be learned through Scouts or any number of other youth organizations.

Scouts? aren't they anti gay or something though?

What's your point, Liney?

Note that I did not specify which Scouts.

Stop being a dick in this thread, please.

What scouts are there besides boy or girl scouts?

Scouting is perfectly safe and o.k. So was Michael Jackson, catholic priests, and most of the "framed" people on "To Catch a Predator".

What other youth organizations exist besides them? Which is what I said, Scouts or other youth organizations. Pardon me for not, you know, carrying on about how evil the anti-gay BSA is or something so you can derail the discussion even further with attacks on me away from /p/.

http://wonkette.com/479516/chick-fil-a-now-firing-women-so-they-can-stay-home-and-make-babies-for-jesus

What was that again about employers not caring about if you believe in creation or Darwin?

Sorry, but it does matter to some employers, apparently.

Jim Bakker says that gawd speaks to him about the world ending this year. That's why he sells emergency food in buckets.
With the end of the world coming, does it really matter if the school system is working or not?

It sure does matter, how many times have they been wrong about the date of the Apocalypse or End Times or whatever they like to call it?

I don't know if true "year round" schools would fly around here...

Try telling a large group of unionized public employees that their two and a half month summer vacation has just been permanently canceled as of July, 2012, then pass that same news along to a huge number of teenagers. Finish your good news by explaining that the teachers will have to work all year and the students will have to go to school all year and give up their summer vacation plans - forever.

Life as these people have come to know and enjoy it is now over. Done. Kaput.

Then you can explain that you'd like to see this fly because at least half of the school program has been crashing and burning on a real regular basis, and you think this will fix it.

I can't remember where you stand on gun control, but if I were you I'd give some very serious consideration to a Class 3 license, an M16A4 and several thousand rounds of ammo. Then spend some time at the range.

As often as they've predicted it, they've been wrong. They will continue to be wrong as well as non-biblical.

Now, given that Jim Bakker is every bit as credible as Wonkette, I don't really think anyone should be taking either of these people's strident opinions into consideration while discussion public education.

Aside, and as a sort of thread hijack, I remember when Chick-Fil-A opened in the Woodville mall. I think this was their first store in the Toledo area, and I could not believe that they chose the Woodville mall which was as quiet as an undiscovered Egyptian tomb six days of the week. I met the brand new franchise owner and his wife, and they seemed like nice people albeit a bit naive. They explained the whole Chick-Fil-A concept to me, and I found it frightening. You start off with a prayer session where everyone prays for business, then you sing the Chick-Fil-A theme song, then there's a bunch of other stuff along the same lines.

The store went under within three months or so. I felt sorry for the couple. Oh well.

WELCOME TO /p/!

Why thank you, AC. That's very nice of you.

Can't you just feel the love? I think it's time for a group hug!

BAD TOUCH! BAD TOUCH!

Ha!
Ha!Ha!
Ha!Ha!Ha!

I about snorted my bourbon.

That's rich!

Homophobia? Is that Coward getting a chick-filet sandwich?

Now that I know what you Republicans are doing to the chickens that become Chick-fil-A sandwiches... no way. That's not mayo. I prefer not to have a nickel out of every $3.00 I spend there go to lobby groups that enact more of this homophobic, supposedly-Biblical law bullshit. It's one thing if you want to be a "Christian" company, fine, whatever, but it's another if by buying products from your "Christian" company, I'm contributing to you pissing on the rights of people whose only "sin" is based in some Old Testament bullshit that your company probably doesn't follow (I'm willing to bet that the Chick-fil-A uniform is not 100% one fabric).

But this has nothing to do with schools or me cringing from maddie's "group hug".

But I thought all democrats loved to sing kumbaya and have group hugs, thought they were the caring party.

Do you have anything useful to contribute here any more, or are you just in it for your miserable failures of attempts to troll?

Im here to entertain you Coward.

I'm not entertained by what you keep doing to those poor chickens. Cut that out before you get arrested.

I would imagine your goats are not too happy with you either.

Yeah, I wondered why I saw a car with a Michigan plate speeding away after I heard all sorts of racket out in the barnyard last night. Come around my goats again and you'll learn all about the Second Amendment and gun control meaning "hit what you aim at".

I was taking pictures of you and your goats, gonna post em on youtube.

That does it, I'm getting a TRO against you.

Liney has gone to obsessed creepy stalker stage, everyone.