Emergency! No one to flip Perrysburg burgers!

I'm not sure what your title/comment have to do with the actual article, but the store seems like a pretty classic case of "you get what you pay for." Or in this case, what you vote to not pay for.
Phase 1: We don't like paying for TARTA.
Phase 2: Let's vote to discontinue our use of TARTA!
Phase 3: Shit, how do we get around? How could TARTA leave us in the lurch like this? Don't they know we need public transportation?!

*story

You mean there is not one charter bus company they could hire for three months to bridge the gap between TARTA service and January 1 (planned start-up of Perrysburg service)?

In this economy, there isn't one single company in the area (or close, like Detroit or Cleveland), with a few vehicles available, that would like to have a steady, substantial check for 3-4 months service?

Someone's not trying....

Glass City Pedicaps, get on this!

^^Now you're talking!!!

Don't Perrysburg residents still have to vote on the transportation levy to fund whatever is going to replace TARTA?

What happens if it doesn't get approved?

Perrysburg City Council passed a proposition July 17 to place the 1.4 mill levy on the November 6 ballot. The tax impact would be about $44 for a $100,000 home.

Story

Johio83 the title has everything to do with the article.

They need bus service to Levis so they have the ability to staff minimum wage jobs. They discovered a large portion of the people that will work minimum wage don't live in a $300k Pburg McMansion and need to be bused in. Someone has to flip your burger and it probably won't be an upper class kid busy playing travel hockey.

It's almost comical that decisions are made without examining cause and effect.

Since it's their problem, force the businesses in Levis to pay for and find solutions involving their workers' transportation. Levis businesses will either increase wages or directly provide transportation.

What happens if it doesn't get approved?

Well, I would venture to say that taxes would fail to increase by the amount of the proposed levy. But that's just me.

Perrysburg residents voted to oust TARTA which shows uncommon good sense. It seems the Perrysburg city council is not in agreement with the voters and is searching for a way to keep TARTA involved - which is typical of a city council everywhere. Ignore the voters; what do they know, anyway?

Or is it possible that the voters are saying "screw this, I'm not paying an extra tax for something I don't even use." However, they're expecting the people who work the shops they want to visit to get to work on their own dime, now that they've removed their mode of transportation for getting to said job. (And MrGlass, I gotcha!)

Hm. Would it be legal for Pburg schools to lease out a school bus or two and drivers for this?

How about subbing in from Ottawa County transit or Bowling Green transit?

I guess to sum up my last post there, the point of a representative democracy is to safeguard against mob rule. The representatives are a filter for us, in case we make rash decisions that we haven't thought through. In this case, maybe city council is aware that, by removing public transportation, they're hurting a large revenue-creator for the city. So in effect, they're preventing the citizens from making a perceived money-saving decision that will in the end cost them more money.

I only asked because I thought that the general sentiment of the Perrysburg voters was not "we don't want to fund any sort of public transportation," but rather "we think we can provide a better service than TARTA."

It seemed to me that the general perception of the voters was that they knew there was a need for public transportation...at least to a few specific locations like Levis Commons, etc.

(I guess if that's the case, then they will approve the levy in November.)

....the general sentiment of the Perrysburg voters was not "we don't want to fund any sort of public transportation," but rather "we think we can provide a better service than TARTA."

This (and the rest of the post) is dead on right.

I think this is more a case of bad planning, rather than the end of public transportation, on the part of the decision makers.

6th floor. Levis could pay for their own transportation and some business might do ok, some might fail, and some might say hey I'm going to locate where my costs are lower. Less tax revenue off Levis means the demand for more tax revenue from Pburg residents to cover the same expenses. You could build more apartments to house minimum wage workers, but then you need to build more schools and hire more teachers as overcrowding comes into play. Plus then you'll call it mini Toledo as people move away to get away from the same people they moved to Pburg to get away from in the first place resulting in more lost tax revenue.

Was an analysis ever done to decide what is most cost effective use of tax dollars as opposed to a simple, Me no like Tarta tax, Me hate tax...........Will it end up costing more taxes than the tax that was avoided?

Mom2. The proposed service is $44 per 100k in Pburg. Does anyone remember or have a link to the previous service cost per 100k?

I believe the news story I linked above stated that the new proposal was about half of what TARTA cost.

Whether or not that is an accurate figure, I don't know.

The representatives are a filter for us, in case we make rash decisions that we haven't thought through.

Absolutely. Like rashly deciding that our taxes are too high already and we need lower taxes, not higher taxes. Shame on us for not thinking this through! How fortunate we are to have public officials to guide us along the treacherous pathway from barbarism to civilization.

I think it's very likely that a large percentage of the voters in Perrysburg who voted TARTA out did so because they were sick and tired of paying for something that neither they nor their family and friends ever used: Public transportation.

If I'm wrong, the levy in November will pass in a landslide and Perrysburg will have a brand new bus system. If I'm not wrong (because I could never be correct about the voting public being so insensitive to the needs of others) the levy will fail miserably and city council will have to schedule a new vote to get a levy passed to fund public transport.

...Me no like Tarta tax, Me hate tax...........Will it end up costing more taxes than the tax that was avoided?

Perhaps it is not so much the amount as the service TARTA rendered to Perrysburg? I think Perrysburg was tired of fighting TARTA to get better, more efficient service and getting nowhere with the people that run TARTA.

I seem to recall the cost of service being way out of proportion to the actual service rendered to Perrysburg. And if the end result of the new bus service is that it ends up being a few dollars more with better service, I think everyone will be happy.

This will cost residents of a $100,000 home about $44 a year. This money would fund the council's top three choices of service, according to Perrysburg officials

"Our hope is that voters will see we've given them a choice that's low enough at 1.45 mills that voters will see the value in this new service, that it's half the cost in terms of dollars at TARTA and that the cost and better service will mean enough that they vote yes on November 6," Perrysburg Councilman Todd Grayson said

Story

MrGlass, you're actually describing one of the fundamental problems with suburbs. The original idea was to build housing communities out away from the urban areas, since highways now gave people easy access to places of business, shops, etc. We kinda screwed that up by just moving the businesses out into the suburbs. Now, as you're describing, the people in the suburbs don't want to deal with population density like that, so they move to a ring further out. Then we have a sprawled out city that is less efficient with its spending, since it now has a much larger area to service for the same amount of taxable residents.

It seems like this levy is poorly planned by the Perrysburg officials.

They have a levy on the ballot which they say would be enough to "fund the council's top three choices of service." (From the quote I already linked above.)

Personally, if I were a voter, I'd rather know exactly what service I was voting on and what the specific cost was going to be.

Not putting a 1.45 mill levy on the ballot and guessing that it will be enough to cover the cost of whichever service the city council happens to pick after the fact.

Tell me what service you want to go with, what it will cost, and what the benefit to the community will be. And then I will decide whether to support it or not.

419, I really doubt Perrysburg is going to suffer if a few restaurants at Levis close.

And if the businesses in Levis relocate to another place with LOWER COSTS, that's a net positive.

6th, I don't think you're taking into account the money that Levis itself brings in. A lot of the people that come to Pburg to shop at Levis are coming to shop at Levis. If those stores close up and relocate, there's probably a high number of customers who won't come to Pburg to visit them if it isn't in one central location like they are now.

Johio, it doesn't make any difference to me how much money Levis money "brings in." Any money spent Levis is money that isn't spent elsewhere. If it's as much as you think it is, then shouldn't the businesses there and market should be able to provide either higher wages for the employees and/or transportation for the employees.

If the place is as high-rolling as you claim, people shopping there will pay higher prices at restaurants. That also means the restaurants can pay higher wages to their employees.

There is more to Perrysburg than Levis Commons.

Oldhometown has the issue correct - its not how much Perrysburg residents are paying its what they are getting for what they pay.

Doing some searching online, TARTA has about 5 million riders a year and their budget is about $28 million, so about $5.60 per ride (I'm guessing the number does include the rider's fare so each ride is subsidized abou $4.50 by the taxpayers.).

Now look at Sylvania Township. Several years ago when TARTA first proposed a sales tax I remember these numbers coming out:

TARTA taxes paid by Sylvania township property owners: $2 million

Number of riders in the township on township routes including TARPS and call-a-ride: 65,000 +/-

Average cost per ride: $30

Minus the rider fare, the taxpayers of Sylvania Township were subsidizing each ride by $29!!!!

So in reality the taxpayers of Sylvania township are subsidizing Toledo riders. We don't object to taxpayer paid public transportation we object to a system of funnelling our money to subsidize Toledoans. I suspect Perrysburg residents feel the same way.

Reality is that TARTA has failed to keep pace with the changing demographics of its service territory. 30+ years ago when suburbs opted in, Downtown Toledo was the largest business district. Today, Arrowhead Park has a bigger daytime population and yet you have to go to downtown Toledo to catch a ride to Arrowhead. How worthless is that to those who live in the burbs and work in Arrowhead?

6th respectfully if you think business relocating and leaving Levis is a net positive to residents in Pburg and having their services subsidized by business tax there is nothing more really worth discussing further. We'll just disagree.

Mom2 thanks for the info.

You don't need to ride a bus in pburg to use it. You use it everyday when your gas pump gets turned on or you grab your burger at the fastfood joint, or you're buying jewelry or clothing.

6th there really isn't more to it. You probably wouldn't have OI without it.

419, I don't think it's a net positive for businesses leaving Pburg. However, I don't believe TARTA not being available is going to result in anything significant leaving...that includes both Levis Commons and OI.

Interesting thread.

Funny how no one seems to think there is a problem with TARTA collecting for the last few months and providing NO service during that time?

Many are all to eager to lambast Perrysburg residents for exercising their rights and voting down a tax and service that they, as a community, didn't feel they should support or pay.

Why all the gnashing of teeth? That's the right of a citizen here in the good ol' USA.

Do you honestly believe that Levis Commons, and eventually Perrysburg, will whither up and blow off the map because TARTA isn't making a few runs out there each day?

I think a little reality check is needed to put things in perspective.

Shamrock, it appears some people do think all of Perrysburg will return to horse buggies and farms without TARTA carrying a few shoppers and workers to and from Levis Commons.

"Any money spent Levis is money that isn't spent elsewhere" and "There is more to Perrysburg than Levis Commons"

But that's what I'm saying. The money not spent at Levis is spent elsewhere, and that elsewhere isn't always Levis. My mom and sister do a lot of their shopping at Levis, because it's Levis. If those shops close up, they won't follow them. They'll either shop at the replacement at Levis, or go to Fallen Timbers instead.

Funny how no one seems to think there is a problem with TARTA collecting for the last few months and providing NO service during that time?

The original article linked above states that TARTA is statutorily obligated to provide service to Perrysburg until next month. (And that a Perrysburg councilman is trying to work out an extension.)

Are you saying that TARTA has provided no service in the last few months to Perrysburg, despite being statutorily obigated to do so?

*that elsewhere isn't always Perrysburg.

mom2 it is my understanding that taxes will be collected and paid to TARTA through the end of the year although they will end their service soon.

MrGlass419 I am a bit surprised at your level of misunderstanding of the Perrysburg area. Do you really think everyone lives in huge houses and the kids don't work? If so, you are sadly mistaken, my friend.

Interesting. I wasn't sure how that worked. It seemed odd that the obligation to provide service ended at that interval. (Though I understand that it is because it is 6 months from the date it was voted on.)

Wasn't sure how that would work, since property taxes are generally based on a full year.

I live in Sylvania Twp - it is interesting to see how this process is going for Perrysburg, because it could be happening to us in the near future.

My point is that it isn't a big deal if a few businesses have to raise wages for some of their lower paid employees, who cannot get to work without TARTA. Levis Commons isn't going to fold because a few businesses have to pay a bit more or provide transportation to employees. If so, then they probably shouldn't exist in the first place.

Since I live in Toledo and I believe you do as well, why would it matter to us if people shop at Levis or Fallen Timbers?

I get bashed here for being a free-market proponent saying budgets should be balanced via lower wages for public employees. I'm again being a free-market proponent saying TARTA dependent, Levis Commons employees' wages will probably rise, and debating with the same people.

How about rebuilding Southwyck, since all the high-roller shoppers, burger flippers, and retail clerks then will have adequate TARTA access to and from the mall?

"Since I live in Toledo and I believe you do as well, why would it matter to us if people shop at Levis or Fallen Timbers?"

Because the issue of Levis's impact on Pburg was being discussed. I was saying that Levis brings money to the city that might not otherwise be there (ie, people who wouldn't shop in Perrysburg if it weren't for Levis).

(You're right though, I do live in Toledo)

Since the mall is bringing so much $ into Pburg, maybe the mall owners should pay for the transportation, instead of people who don't need or use it. Isn't the mall behind on property taxes and some other bond payments it owes Pburg and/or Wood County?

Hey Johio83 forget it, its not even worth trying to explain to them.

Shamrock there is no gnashing of teeth here. I actually find the dilemma of hasty decisions before a plan is in place comical. The only gnashing of teeth is by a pburg council that is getting push back from their own business constituents. Shamrock i know the area well and I would put odds in 30 years the area is full of blight due to cheap construction materials and continuing influx of apartments over that period of time. Everything that drove people there follows them in eventually. There is no development planning going on in our region whatsoever. Taxes will continue to rise as we spread also.
It is council gnashing.

I find it comical when people always automatically associate Perrysburg with "McMansions" and spoiled rich kids. I always assume it's pure jealousy and resentment towards those who choose to do better for themselves and their families.

Well you know what they say when you assume. You make an ass out of u and me, and you seem to have that down pat in every comment I've seen you post. I don't care to compare home values as it's gauche but I can assure its not jealousy. In fact your promotion of mindless expansion unfortunately benefits me as it encroaches on my farm driving values higher and driving food prices higher.

"My point is that it isn't a big deal if a few businesses have to raise wages for some of their lower paid employees, who cannot get to work without TARTA. Levis Commons isn't going to fold because a few businesses have to pay a bit more or provide transportation to employees."

6th, I find it interesting that you think that business owners should subsidize their employees transportation. Could you please explain that to my brother's employer, Bunting Brass in Delta? He drives 70 miles round trip everyday, hasn't had a raise in 5 years, and really needs a new car. Thanks!! ;p

Nana, I think you are completely missing my point. It isn't the responsibility of Perrysburg taxpayers to subsidize transportation for Levis Commons employers or their employees.

Maybe your brother ought to move closer to Delta, find a job along a TARTA bus route, or lobby to get the service available in Delta.

Nana, possibly a reason that your brother hasn't received a raise in 5 years is that his employer is able to find plenty of employees at the current pay rate.

Regarding wages, employers have the strong hand during a bad economy.

6th- do you own and run a business with employees?

You know, 6th, that's why I quoted you. I doubt I misunderstood what you SAID, maybe you weren't clear in what you MEANT, altho saying it's no big deal if employers have to raise wages to cover underpaid employees transportation costs is a pretty clear statement. It's also highly doubtful you would ever do that if you were an employer. And my brother hasn't had a raise in 5 years because he's 1 of 2 people in a skilled position that is not covered by the union. Moving is not an option. Your other 2 suggestions are facetious.

The employers at Levis are not going to raise wages as a result of TARTA going away, and they certainly are not going to start any shuttle service of their own.

Anybody working there who counted on that service will have to quit, or simply find a new method of getting to work and absorb the associated costs.

6th, you think those employers are going to respond with higher wages? That is a bit naive.

It seems that Levi's employees are the main focus of the discussion here.

I think the more valid discussion would be about elderly and disabled individuals who depend on public transportation. I agree that taxpayers shouldn't subsidize transportation for the sole use of employees of a private business, but there is some value to a community to ensure that disabled & elderly individuals have access to transportation.

Of course, it should be done in the most cost-effective way, which is why I understand why Perrysburg taxpayers voted TARTA/TARPS out.

I live in a nice neighborhood in Sylvania Twp. There is an older woman down the street who uses TARTA on a regular basis. I often wonder how it would affect her if Sylvania Twp drops TARTA & doesn't replace the service with something else.

Yes, as a taxpayer, it frustrates me that residents of my community are paying more than we are getting out of TARTA. That doesn't mean that I don't support the concept of public transportation in general - I just would like to see it done in the most cost-effective way to serve the population that truly needs it.

(I should note that I have actually used TARTA before. When gas prices were at their peak, I tried some of the downtown routes from Sylvania to commute to work. Honestly, it wasn't a bad experience, and there seemed to be a regular group of business commuters between Sylvania to downtown. I might have considered sticking with it, but the routes were altered & the times were no longer convenient for me.)

Why doesn't Levis take a proactive role and ask the tenants:
1) who has employees who use tarta?
2) How often?
3) what times of the day?

Then look at the viability of creating s shuttle service for workers and visitors. You may not fix every employees problem but you might pick up a few new ones along the way.

My point is - start with the facts.

Molsonater, Levis doesn't have a common owner. It is comprised of a number of building owners. Coordination for a survey of employee needs regarding TARTA service in general probably isn't high on their list.

My guess is that Westfield Mall, Fallen Timbers, etc., as well as Levis Commons do not rely on TARTA as a large cog in their business model. The percentage of shoppers and/or employees who rely on it for their transportation needs to and from those businesses is most likely very small.

Although that would be a good idea, I am assuming the business owners expect their employees to find transportation to get to the jobs.

"My guess is" - shamrock44

I would take one person half a day to get the info out and a couple of days to get it back. If the issue is big enough to effect councils decisions its a big enough problem that you can pull sources together on the lower level.

I can think of 3 ways off hand to fix this situation.

Molson - I hope someone there is reading this thread - that's a good idea.