Toledo Talk

Casino Betting Down in Toledo

Found this article interesting. Seems like a big drop. Still one more to open.

"Last month betting dropped 9.2 percent in Toledo and 2.2 percent in Cleveland."

http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/20033345/new-columbus-casino-ohios-3rd-boosts-wagering

created by Molsonator on Nov 07, 2012 at 05:00:17 pm     Entertainment     Comments: 123

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Comments ... #

how can we compare numbers on a place that hasn't been open for a year?

posted by upso on Nov 07, 2012 at 05:45:39 pm     #   2 people liked this

Yeah, so the shiny has worn off the casino, so what? Didn't know it was some sort of huge economic indicator. Me, I'm busy tucking away cash for Xmas, I don't feel like going in and blowing $20 pulling a lever for a couple hours.

posted by anonymouscoward on Nov 07, 2012 at 05:54:52 pm     #   1 person liked this

I spend some serious time at the blackjack tables and the consensus of the dealers I have spoken to is that betting is way way down from expectations and that management is scrambling to try to market the place in a different manner.

posted by Star56 on Nov 07, 2012 at 08:04:43 pm     #  

I had lunch with a couple of business owners in Detroit. They said they have been coming to Toledo because of the no smoking and the much more "thug free" environment.

I assumed that the big numbers were the opening bump and that it was a 100 million dollar a month casino sustainably.

I am not sure that there is a problem. They don't discuss revenue, but I can't see their business plan forecasting a continuation of opening numbers all year.

posted by justread on Nov 07, 2012 at 08:40:41 pm     #  

I am sure these casino guys know exactly the percentage of decline of the money gambled will play out. This is not their first rodeo.

posted by JohnnyMac on Nov 07, 2012 at 09:46:26 pm     #  

JohnnyMac posted at 08:46:26 PM on Nov 07, 2012:

I am sure these casino guys know exactly the percentage of decline of the money gambled will play out. This is not their first rodeo.

Exactly. The alarm that the ship was sinking is coming from the shore, not the wheelhouse.

posted by justread on Nov 08, 2012 at 07:03:40 am     #  

Last two times I have been there the place has been empty. There is no energy or vibe whatsoever inside the casino. I would still much rather drive an hour up to Detroit with friends than go to the one in Toledo.

posted by toledoramblingman on Nov 08, 2012 at 10:09:16 am     #  

The house is winning too much so of course thats going to keep people away. If they increased the odds of the patrons chances of winning then more people will come. It's simple word of mouth marketing, let people win and it will get them talking to their friends and family which then they will want to come and try their luck. The first 2 months I went there I won almost every time on the slots, nothing big ($200 the most) but it was enough for me to come back. The last few times I went I blew through $40 in a matter of minutes with hardly any wins. Let me win a few dollars and I'll gladly come back for more.

posted by Walleye419 on Nov 08, 2012 at 10:53:32 am     #   2 people liked this

My husband went for the free Candlebox show recently and enjoyed it. That's the only time he has been there so far.

Wonder what mid-90s band they will bring next? Lit was suppose to be next, but that show was canceled. They had Sponge and another band last month.

Not a bad marketing move though - there are a few bands from my college days that I'd probably consider going to see for an evening at the casino.

posted by mom2 on Nov 08, 2012 at 10:54:51 am     #  

The probability of winning money in any Casino is always 0.0 over time. That never changes. 0.0 It is impossible over time to win anything...nada.

Go for the entertainment value of gambling. Never go with the idea of making money. Never. The house must always win over time.

posted by Star56 on Nov 08, 2012 at 06:58:34 pm     #   1 person liked this

How do the blackjack decks work there? Can the cards be counted? Also, in a poker room, it's me verses others, not the house. I don't lose money at a Holdem money game very often.

I just don't find them very fun...

posted by SensorG on Nov 08, 2012 at 09:40:01 pm     #  

Star56 posted at 05:58:34 PM on Nov 08, 2012:

The probability of winning money in any Casino is always 0.0 over time. That never changes. 0.0 It is impossible over time to win anything...nada.

Go for the entertainment value of gambling. Never go with the idea of making money. Never. The house must always win over time.

Hear! Hear!

http://www.khanacademy.org/math/probability/v/law-of-large-numbers

posted by hank on Nov 08, 2012 at 09:50:39 pm     #  

Hollywood Casino's Parent company is Penn National Gaming which is traded on the Nasdaq with a ticker of PENN. The stock has declined 9.15% over the last month. However, the 10 year total annualized return is 14.77% per year which is very nice. From what I gathered a few months ago when I was looking over Casino related stocks they can be quite volatile - obviously. For example, PENN had an astounding 161.89% gain in 2004 but a devastating 64.10% loss in 2008.

  • If I were ever thinking about a Casino as a money making proposition this is the ONLY way I would ever consider testing my luck - not at the tables. In truth, if there were a severe market correction I would research this further. Right now the stock price is $38.62 per share. Maybe if it were in the low $20's....

As far as the long term outlook on casino's and the casino in our city I am very leery. Spend any significant time in a casino and you will notice many senior citizens gaming. I do not believe future generations who are straddled with debt and less retirement assets will be able to pilfer money away on non-necessities especially in the future when the national debt will impact inflation considerably and consumers will have less spending power.

posted by Danneskjold on Nov 08, 2012 at 10:17:33 pm     #  

"How do the blackjack decks work there? Can the cards be counted? Also, in a poker room, it's me verses others, not the house. I don't lose money at a Holdem money game very often.

I just don't find them very fun.."

The blackjack tables operate according to the same statistical principles as all the other games. Overtime it is impossible to win anything at a blackjack table. Impossible. If you follow the "standard charts" to the exact letter your money will dribble away slowly since the edge to the house is small (the player can bust before the dealer every plays and that is the edge) but over time if you go to a Casino and play blackjack with 100 million dollars, eventually you must leave with $0.

Card counting is a potential way to legally shift the edge to the player. However, it is extremely hard to do and requires thousands of hours to practice...and even then most people will never master the technique. The movie 21 was pure fiction and did not accurately portray the difficulty in actually trying to do this in real time. I have taught statistics at the university level for over 25 years, I have a quick agile brain and there is no way I could learn to count cards effectively.

As far as the poker rooms, the house always wins here also. The house takes a "rake" every hand and never loses money. Part of your initial ante is gone before you ever see your cards. To win your money back you need to be highly skilled and a professional quality player to win consistently at the high stakes tables. You have guys who have played millions of hands and you had better know what your doing if you expect to make consistent money.

I started playing serious poker 40 years ago. Hardcore, high stakes stuff with mean, hardcore players. I have played with professionals at some of the world's top casinos. I would never delude myself that I could consistently make money and supplement my regular income. There are too many good players who do nothing but play 18 hrs/day, 7 days/week at casinos. They will take you to the cleaners if you stay around too long.

Never, never go to a casino thinking that you are gong to make money. Go for the entertainment value. if you leave with some cash, good for you. If you want to keep it never go back :)

posted by Star56 on Nov 09, 2012 at 03:29:09 am     #   2 people liked this

"I have taught statistics at the university level for over 25 years" - Don't buy it.

posted by Molsonator on Nov 09, 2012 at 08:44:16 am     #   3 people liked this

I don't buy it either since 21 was a fact based story about MIT students.

posted by lfrost2125 on Nov 09, 2012 at 09:33:58 am     #  

lfrost2125 posted at 08:33:58 AM on Nov 09, 2012:

I don't buy it either since 21 was a fact based story about MIT students.

Highly dramatized, like everything, but you can Google it all up.

posted by anonymouscoward on Nov 09, 2012 at 10:16:33 am     #  

I think the questions of "can the cards be counted" means "are they using a continuously shuffling shoe" or hand-shuffled and how many decks.

You're the expert, Star56, tell us.

posted by anonymouscoward on Nov 09, 2012 at 10:23:52 am     #  

I have a buddy that is very good at counting cards. He's got kicked out of quite a few casinos. Nothing like a couple of big guys coming to either side of you and tell you that you’re simply too good player and “ask” you not to come back. A couple of times they took pics of his him and his car. In Vegas they followed him around trying to figure out who he was.

He plays all Hold’em now, so being good doesn’t matter to the house. He hasn’t finished better than the top 1/3 in the WSOP, but he gets a bit better each year.

Now most Casinos shuffle the decks too often making the counting impossible. If they don’t shuffle very often and play with 5 or less decks, even I can count at a rudimentary level and get myself another ˝-1% in my favor.

posted by SensorG on Nov 09, 2012 at 10:28:31 am     #  

Seven decks are used at Hollywood casino. The decks are machine shuffled once, a player is then given the opportunity to place a marker which indicated where they would like a cut to be made. The cut position must be positioned in the back 50% of deck stack. Following the cut, the dealer then places the marker near the rear of the shuffled and cut deck.

The decks are then placed in the shoe. The cards are then distributed until the marker is reached, that hand is allowed to finish. The remaining cards are then removed from the shoe. A previous set of decks are sitting in the machine freshly shuffled (a green light indicates a random shuffle was achieved..a red light indicates a failure of some sort and the decks must be reshuffled). The freshly shuffled deck is removed from the machine and the process continues.

So in theory yes you could card count. In reality it is very very hard.

Yes I have taught statistics for a quarter century. In fact I have a stack of stat exams sitting in my office waiting to be graded. But I understand your skepticism this being the internets and such :)

posted by Star56 on Nov 09, 2012 at 02:39:45 pm     #  

Correction, there are 8 decks used on the main floor and 6 decks used in the high limit area. All are machine shuffled unless the maching isn't operating properly.

posted by MI_Builder on Nov 09, 2012 at 09:25:53 pm     #  

Star56 - "if you go to a Casino and play blackjack with 100 million dollars, eventually you must leave with $0."

Not statistically accurate.

posted by Molsonator on Nov 09, 2012 at 09:58:13 pm     #  

Molsonator posted at 08:58:13 PM on Nov 09, 2012:

Star56 - "if you go to a Casino and play blackjack with 100 million dollars, eventually you must leave with $0."

Not statistically accurate.

Well, that's all the proof i need. Well played, sir.

posted by hank on Nov 09, 2012 at 10:56:46 pm     #  

My figure of 7 decks was provided by several dealers but I of course have never manually handled any of the cards :) that would be problematic.

Actually Molsonator my statement is statistically accurate. All it takes is time. The tiniest of edge will, over time, separate you from all your cash. On what basis do your doubt this statement?

posted by Star56 on Nov 10, 2012 at 04:53:25 am     #  

I look at gambling as throwing good money after bad. Also, there are many social problems that come with addictive gambling.

I'm only against gambling for me. If others want to throw away their money, their homes and their families so be it.

I would agree with Star56 that if you look at it as entertainment and can stop after you win or lose a certain amount that is fine. But gamblers always think their luck is at the next table, next machine or next card. It a lose lose situation.

posted by jackie on Nov 10, 2012 at 12:59:22 pm     #  

What's the entertainment value of a buck or two for the lottery? Isn't it like 8 cents of that buck that go to education? Yet you get 15 minutes of "if I win I'll" daydreaming out of it...

posted by anonymouscoward on Nov 10, 2012 at 01:56:07 pm     #  

I don't buy lottery tickets either.

posted by jackie on Nov 10, 2012 at 04:38:57 pm     #  

I just do the scratch offs maybe once a year. I find that I do better on the holiday ones usually. The most anyone in the family won was a brand new corvette off one of the scratch offs.

posted by lfrost2125 on Nov 10, 2012 at 05:26:41 pm     #  

Can anyone confirm if the casino has had a recent round of lay-offs or have let a bunch of people go for economic reasons? Thank you.

posted by Watcher on Nov 12, 2012 at 08:18:21 am     #  

I can ask the girl I know that works there and Tim Hortons the next time I'm in there. I know they had a some people quite because it wasn't what they expected it to be.

posted by lfrost2125 on Nov 12, 2012 at 11:39:15 am     #  

Frost is right. I know someone in management at the casino who has told me some employees (management included) have quit or moved to other casinos because they weren't happy here. Not sure about layoffs. I'd have to ask.

posted by shortysmom on Nov 12, 2012 at 02:49:04 pm     #  

Penn National has to be doing alright all together. They just gave Rossford 200,000 Dollar grant.

posted by lfrost2125 on Nov 13, 2012 at 02:15:51 pm     #  

Interesting... Don't know what it means, but interesting...

http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/20711046/schools-share-of-casino-revenue-falling-short

posted by Molsonator on Jan 26, 2013 at 03:50:56 pm     #  

Don't know what it means...

Here's a couple things I think it means:

1.) Local and state politicians lied (again) to get what they wanted...and the people lined up and voted for it like trained seals.

2.) Expect to see a shitload of school levies (more than usual) in fall 2013, unless you live in a school district that budgets based upon real dollar figures not fantasy numbers.

I'm sorry I didn't gamble away my life's savings for the schools. I should be stripped of my citizenship.

posted by oldhometown on Jan 26, 2013 at 04:11:45 pm     #   1 person liked this

More like the population was fool again and proved they truly are stupid sheep. Down here about 5 or 6 years ago they got voters to approve an instate lottery finally. It was touted as the "education lottery" and used as a way to help provide additional funding to school. So what happened? Schools started to adjust their budgets to plan for those funds being available just like their regular tax funding. Lottery sales have never hit the initial expectations and schools had to reduce their spending.

I blame the school administrators for letting their systems get into situations where they planned for X amount of dollars from gambling. They would have been smarter to stick with their original budget plans, based on the property taxes, and then use the extra casino money to pay down debt or get some special one time extras.

posted by JustaSooner on Jan 26, 2013 at 06:25:51 pm     #  

That would've made too much sense JustaSooner. Why budget with what you have, when you can budget for what you might have. It looks much better when you do the latter, but usually ends up much worse. Why is a business degree not a requirement to run a school system?

posted by hunkytownsausage on Jan 26, 2013 at 07:57:12 pm     #  

Looks like these schools are getting 34-36% of the revenue they expected from these bee-ess casinos. Rossford, $80K of $237K; Toledo $1.2M of $3.3M.

Tell me, is this a linear relationship with the performance of the casinos themselves? Am I to conclude that the Toledo casino is now getting about 1/3rd of the profit that it expected? Or 1/3rd of the revenue?

posted by GuestZero on Jan 26, 2013 at 08:06:41 pm     #  

Not sure of the schools but I know Rossford as a city has been benefiting from the casino. They have already received over 200,000 from the Casino.

posted by lfrost2125 on Jan 26, 2013 at 08:10:09 pm     #  

hunkytownsausage posted at 06:57:12 PM on Jan 26, 2013:

That would've made too much sense JustaSooner. Why budget with what you have, when you can budget for what you might have. It looks much better when you do the latter, but usually ends up much worse. Why is a business degree not a requirement to run a school system?

What would the point of that be? You don't think businesses manipulate budgets and projected budgets just as much or more than schools do?

posted by Sohio on Jan 26, 2013 at 11:24:49 pm     #  

Watcher posted at 07:18:21 AM on Nov 12, 2012:

Can anyone confirm if the casino has had a recent round of lay-offs or have let a bunch of people go for economic reasons? Thank you.

I have a casino employee living in my house.

According to her, no layoffs so far. They didn't have to. Enough of the new hires quit because they couldn't handle the work; and Penn presumably hired enough to be able to sustain an initial exodus. Apparently there have been a number of firings among management ranks, though, and there have been a number of people--brand new to the casino industry, mind you--who have already left for jobs at casinos in more 'exotic' locales. Like Las Vegas and central Michigan.

posted by Sohio on Jan 26, 2013 at 11:30:03 pm     #  

Sohio posted at 10:24:49 PM on Jan 26, 2013:
hunkytownsausage posted at 06:57:12 PM on Jan 26, 2013:

That would've made too much sense JustaSooner. Why budget with what you have, when you can budget for what you might have. It looks much better when you do the latter, but usually ends up much worse. Why is a business degree not a requirement to run a school system?

What would the point of that be? You don't think businesses manipulate budgets and projected budgets just as much or more than schools do?

IF a business manipulates a budget its called fraud and they shut the doors and people go to jail, if they project a budget incorrectly they go out of business or lay people off, and someone gets fired for it.
When a public official does it, they call it unexpected changes, and maybe the person gets a raise.
Sure the business can do and might get away with it, but in the long run they are always caught. I might be wrong but when you say budget I am thinking of where they report the money is going, usually covering up something more sinister like embezzling or fraud.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 27, 2013 at 03:26:01 am     #  

LC, businesses play with numbers all the time, and get away with it. Sometimes it is even perfectly legal. It's called creative accounting. You can make those numbers say whatever you want them to say if you know what you're doing.

Recommended reading: HOW TO LIE WITH STATISTICS by Darrell Huff. That book was a real eye-opener for me.

posted by Sohio on Jan 27, 2013 at 09:53:35 am     #   1 person liked this

I don't see this as the School districts fault that. I am assuming they got their numbers from the Casino. I guess if they don't plan on the money - people voting on their levy scream they didn't figure the money in. If they do plan on the money and don't get it - people say they are poor planners.

I think I will stay in the private sector.

posted by Molsonator on Jan 27, 2013 at 11:33:02 am     #  

I guess if they don't plan on the money - people voting on their levy scream they didn't figure the money in. If they do plan on the money and don't get it - people say they are poor planners.

What is wrong with budgeting "$0" for one year and being straight up about it? "Hey, we don't know the amount we can expect from the casino--nobody can predict the future. So, we'll put the line in the budget this year and fill it in when we finally get actual dollar figures and can more accurately project actual revenue. We'll consider whatever we get this fiscal year a 'bonus' and we will spend it on true classroom needs." And then when you do project, be conservative in your projections (i.e. "worst case scenario") instead of always... always ...looking pie in the sky.

I don't think anyone would find that unreasonable. What is unreasonable is saying, with nothing but speculation on the part of casino cheerleaders, "we're gonna get $1.2 million this year....or $237...or $1."

I believe the old folklore phrase (so old fashioned, I know) is: "Don't count your chickens before they're hatched"

Definition: something that you say in order to warn someone to wait until a good thing they are expecting has really happened before they make any plans about it.

posted by oldhometown on Jan 27, 2013 at 01:42:50 pm     #   3 people liked this

For the record, we don't know if they worked into their budget. They just said they got less then was expected.

posted by Molsonator on Jan 27, 2013 at 02:18:28 pm     #  

True. However, the tone of the article makes it sound like they were really counting on that revenue....whereas under my above proposal, the tone would be "Casino provides $X more to local schools!"

I know...framing things positively. How droll...

posted by oldhometown on Jan 27, 2013 at 02:21:54 pm     #  

Dumb and dumber location in the 1st place. Should have been built in the new Chinese district / the old Dillin ghetto (sports area) with an attached hotel facing the river and downtown skyline. That whole area could have been a natural draw for ancillary development to support the casino. But that would have been too classy for blue collar T-town, and then TPS would never ask for another levy, or elect another blockhead with a yard sign obsession.

posted by justareviewer on Jan 27, 2013 at 03:48:43 pm     #  

Sohio said: Recommended reading: HOW TO LIE WITH STATISTICS by Darrell Huff.

That little blue book has graced my bookshelf since I was age 19 or so. I'm holding it right now. I've a 1982 version, still filled with the 1954 silly drawings. I like how each person is drawn White, except for page 29 where there are two "Africans". MUCH LOLZ!

posted by GuestZero on Jan 27, 2013 at 03:49:32 pm     #  

OHT said: What is wrong with budgeting "$0" for one year and being straight up about it?

Well, budgeting in those sorts of organizations always involves projections. True, sane and prudent people would have seen that a new income item based on something as unknown as a casino, would have strongly discounted the projections. Item projections (or whatever they're called) aren't made equal. Income from property taxes is more reliable than income from investments, for example.

The real problem is that probity is punished in the budgeting arena. Molsonator is probably right about it. Cheerleaders push out the doomsayers, and the public bizarrely keeps right on supporting the cheerleaders even when they're dead wrong.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 27, 2013 at 03:57:28 pm     #  

justareviewer said: Should have been built in the new Chinese district

I thought so too, at first. But then I realized that other than property promises, there really was no way that a swanky casino around here was going to be plopped down in an area where Blacks have been noted to fish at the river side, like this is backwoods Georgia or something. Really, cross Front St at nearly any point and you get into some very poor housing. The sort of housing that gets stripped of all metal piping inside of 30 days vacancy.

Today, I still laugh that the casino was built on the very edge of Lucas County, right by I-75 and tucked precisely into what's really Rossford, physically. It's like the developer said "eww" when he looked at Toledo, where he was told to build, and then he was probably told to build it as close to downtown as possible, or something like that. That they had to build it in Toledo was part of the bribe to get the dumbassed voters to pass it in the first place; heck, the Toledo casino itself is really just a bribe to to get the Cinci and Columbus casinos built, which ARE placed in their downtowns. Dunno where the Cleveland casino is, but it probably doesn't matter. You don't build casinos in rusted-out hellholes like ours by any real choice.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 27, 2013 at 04:08:33 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 03:08:33 PM on Jan 27, 2013:

justareviewer said: Should have been built in the new Chinese district

I thought so too, at first. But then I realized that other than property promises, there really was no way that a swanky casino around here was going to be plopped down in an area where Blacks have been noted to fish at the river side, like this is backwoods Georgia or something. Really, cross Front St at nearly any point and you get into some very poor housing. The sort of housing that gets stripped of all metal piping inside of 30 days vacancy.

Today, I still laugh that the casino was built on the very edge of Lucas County, right by I-75 and tucked precisely into what's really Rossford, physically. It's like the developer said "eww" when he looked at Toledo, where he was told to build, and then he was probably told to build it as close to downtown as possible, or something like that. That they had to build it in Toledo was part of the bribe to get the dumbassed voters to pass it in the first place; heck, the Toledo casino itself is really just a bribe to to get the Cinci and Columbus casinos built, which ARE placed in their downtowns. Dunno where the Cleveland casino is, but it probably doesn't matter. You don't build casinos in rusted-out hellholes like ours by any real choice.

HEY GZ, YOU ARE A DUMBFUCK!!!

Columbus casino ain't anywhere near downtown, it's out off Broad by Westland Mall just east of the west-side I270 Broad Street exit. Guess who couldn't bother to do any research to back his dumb ASS-ertions up? That's right, you, GZ.

Cleveland casino is in Public Square, which is get off at Ontario from I-90, drive past "Progressive Field" (*spits*), "Quicken Loans Arena" (*spits again*), cross Prospect, you're there.

Cincy casino is not in downtown, per se, it's on the northeast edge next to I-71/471 and across the interstate from the Mount Adams neighborhood.

How about, now that your bullshit has been discredited, you go chug a nice glass of shut the fuck up, since it's been shown that you're busy mouthing off about things you didn't even bother to take a look at before you started badmouthing Toledo again? It's getting quite tiresome on how you're THE expert on business and development yet you can't be assed to do anything like basic research or make a fair comparison.

Go be gloom and doom and rain on parades elsewhere for a while, and don't come the fuck back unless you're prepared to back your ASSertions up with something based in reality, instead of having your ass handed to you with five minutes of Google-time.

Marketing, development, urban and traffic planning, how do they fucking work? Also, Google, how does it fucking work?

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 27, 2013 at 04:39:14 pm     #   13 people liked this

I am thinking that might have been the last "straw" AC.

posted by Molsonator on Jan 27, 2013 at 04:49:30 pm     #  

uhmaaaaaaazing

posted by upso on Jan 27, 2013 at 05:01:47 pm     #   1 person liked this

In GZ's defense he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Of course they charged him extra for cutting eye holes in all the white sheets.

posted by SensorG on Jan 27, 2013 at 06:13:49 pm     #   8 people liked this

They have been packed the last two weekends. Both last weekend and yesterday traffic was backed up past Wales Rd. Exit on the expressway and past the hill on Miami St.

posted by lfrost2125 on Jan 27, 2013 at 06:35:26 pm     #  

Molsonator posted at 03:49:30 PM on Jan 27, 2013:

I am thinking that might have been the last "straw" AC.

Not with 7 upvotes in 3 hours. Or you could go find enough of your fellow goons to flag it as well.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 27, 2013 at 07:09:05 pm     #   6 people liked this

lfrost2125 posted at 05:35:26 PM on Jan 27, 2013:

They have been packed the last two weekends. Both last weekend and yesterday traffic was backed up past Wales Rd. Exit on the expressway and past the hill on Miami St.

An important point which GZ et. al. forget, is that people want easy access to these places and easy parking. Yeah, having the casino right on the river downtown would have been fantastic, except for the drive down Miami, the traffic lights, and ESPECIALLY THE FRIGGING CHERRY STREET DRAWBRIDGE which would just have been a fucking FANTASTIC fun time dealing with the traffic backups.

If you have to drive through more than 4 traffic lights to get to it off the expressway, it becomes a pain in the ass. Really, how many people would PREFER to run through downtown off of 75 and cross a drawbridge? How many would prefer to exit off 280 at Greenbelt and cross a drawbridge? Who wants to run up Miami or exit at Front? Yeah, thought so.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 27, 2013 at 07:26:50 pm     #   2 people liked this

that would be the MLK bridge...it is 2013 now, and the northerners from I75 who pack the place on the weekends (for drawings and give-aways) must love the circle jerk route past the FIAT/Jeep plant

posted by justareviewer on Jan 27, 2013 at 08:33:29 pm     #  

anonymouscoward posted at 06:09:05 PM on Jan 27, 2013:
Molsonator posted at 03:49:30 PM on Jan 27, 2013:

I am thinking that might have been the last "straw" AC.

Not with 7 upvotes in 3 hours. Or you could go find enough of your fellow goons to flag it as well.

So your a professional troll, congrats.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 27, 2013 at 08:39:29 pm     #  

Linecrosser posted at 07:39:29 PM on Jan 27, 2013:
anonymouscoward posted at 06:09:05 PM on Jan 27, 2013:
Molsonator posted at 03:49:30 PM on Jan 27, 2013:

I am thinking that might have been the last "straw" AC.

Not with 7 upvotes in 3 hours. Or you could go find enough of your fellow goons to flag it as well.

So your a professional troll, congrats.

My a professional troll what?

Oh, you mean "you're". No, I'm not a professional troll, though you would know since you are seemingly paid to repeat certain talking points. I just call out utter bullshit and stupidity when people are being utter fuckheads, as GZ was in this case going on about how the casino is not downtown vs. how the casinos in Cincy and Columbus are downtown, which of course is CLEARLY not the case and could have been determined by five minutes with Google. You know, just like how a lot of the bullshit you spew can be dis-proven with five minutes and Google. Unless, of course, you want to claim that Google (and reality) have LLLiberal biases or something.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 27, 2013 at 09:02:46 pm     #   3 people liked this

justareviewer posted at 07:33:29 PM on Jan 27, 2013:

that would be the MLK bridge...it is 2013 now, and the northerners from I75 who pack the place on the weekends (for drawings and give-aways) must love the circle jerk route past the FIAT/Jeep plant

Yes, I know it's the MLK bridge. I have no problem with it being the MLK bridge, other than perhaps they should be naming stuff for some other civil rights figures other than the guy who has a holiday named after him. My point is that it's a drawbridge and to give a street for anyone who might want to play with Google Maps for example and not be familiar with the area.

Imagine it over where the Sports Arena was and then tell me how much more Penn would have had to pay for all the street and signaling upgrades. I believe I read something where they pretty much paid for the changes at the Miami Street exit. They'd probably be put on the hook for a signal at Oak and Miami, new signals at the intersections at Front and Main and probably widening/adding left turn lanes, adding an entrance off of Front further north, signal upgrades at Main and the Docks/Marina District entrance, and probably all interlocked with the drawbridge too. Plus all sorts of signage all over Downtown too to direct traffic.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 27, 2013 at 10:25:57 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 02:49:32 PM on Jan 27, 2013:

Sohio said: Recommended reading: HOW TO LIE WITH STATISTICS by Darrell Huff.

That little blue book has graced my bookshelf since I was age 19 or so. I'm holding it right now. I've a 1982 version, still filled with the 1954 silly drawings. I like how each person is drawn White, except for page 29 where there are two "Africans". MUCH LOLZ!

They must have taken that out by the 1993 edition...it's not in mine. Page 29 has some guy with his head in a caliper.

posted by Sohio on Jan 27, 2013 at 11:59:20 pm     #  

SensorG posted at 05:13:49 PM on Jan 27, 2013:

In GZ's defense he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Of course they charged him extra for cutting eye holes in all the white sheets.

That's OK. He saved money by not tipping the housekeepers. Why should he? They get paid a decent wage and hardly do any work. What's a hotel maid ever done for him? If they want to make more money they should get better paying jobs, the lazy bitches. That's Hispanics for ya.

posted by Sohio on Jan 28, 2013 at 12:06:59 am     #  

On November 8th,2012 I mentioned above the Penn National Gamings share price was $38.62 per share [ticker PENN]. I just checked and today it is $47.93 per share. $100,000.00 invested would have netted over a $24,000 gain.

Just goes to shows ya... You can't beat the Casino. You have to own the casino.

  • Disclaimer - I did not invest. Of course not!

But - it is interesting that their stock price is rising despite the alleged decline in revenue. A sign of things to come or just possibly a stock riding the coat tails of a market that has had a nice upswing?

posted by Danneskjold on Jan 28, 2013 at 12:26:26 am     #  

'Just goes to shows ya... You can't beat the Casino. You have to own the casino.'

Well, yeah...you gotta play in the RIGHT casino!

posted by Sohio on Jan 28, 2013 at 12:34:56 am     #  

anonymouscoward posted at 06:09:05 PM on Jan 27, 2013:
Molsonator posted at 03:49:30 PM on Jan 27, 2013:

I am thinking that might have been the last "straw" AC.

Not with 7 upvotes in 3 hours. Or you could go find enough of your fellow goons to flag it as well.

Yeah, thanks for posting a pic of Shaggy 2 Dope, by the way. I was trying to finish my dinner while I read that. Thanks to that pic, I lost my appetite. Something about those dudes just makes me gag. <shudders> juggalos...

posted by Sohio on Jan 28, 2013 at 12:47:21 am     #  

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/fcking-magnets-how-do-they-work

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 28, 2013 at 01:06:59 am     #  

Yeah. Exactly my point.

posted by Sohio on Jan 28, 2013 at 01:18:17 am     #  

AC said: Marketing, development, urban and traffic planning, how do they fucking work?

I asked people who had physically been in those locations, for their opinions about where the casinos were. All concluded "downtown", except for Toledo's. There's no way to interpret Toledo's casino as being downtown. Hence my point.

AC, seriously, have you ever considered a regime of Lithium treatment?

posted by GuestZero on Jan 28, 2013 at 03:50:11 pm     #  

AC said: An important point which GZ et. al. forget, is that people want easy access to these places and easy parking.

If the new rule for development is "0 lights off the interstate" then that's about 1% of the land that would previously have qualified. The "nowhere land" where the old arena was, is a short distance from I-280, with minimal lights, which could have been changed in the favor of the new location anyway.

Sounds like you're just predicting the past, AC. You don't know the design specs of the casino land. But it sure does seem the developer had an allergy for Toledo proper... which makes sense, since this place is truly awful for real development. We shouldn't expect to see a corporate HQ appear in downtown Toledo, for instance.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 28, 2013 at 03:59:40 pm     #  

Wow, GZ is suggestion someone should go on lithium...again, wow, Mr. Kettle? Have you met Mr. Black?

posted by SensorG on Jan 28, 2013 at 04:02:41 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 02:50:11 PM on Jan 28, 2013:

AC said: Marketing, development, urban and traffic planning, how do they fucking work?

I asked people who had physically been in those locations, for their opinions about where the casinos were. All concluded "downtown", except for Toledo's. There's no way to interpret Toledo's casino as being downtown. Hence my point.

AC, seriously, have you ever considered a regime of Lithium treatment?

Anyone who concludes "downtown" for Columbus needs their head examined. It's also a stretch to say that for Cincinnati, that is "near downtown". Hell, Toledo's casino is "near downtown" if you ignore it being on the opposite side of the river and two exits away from the downtown-ish exits.

But yeah, it's too bad we can't hook your backpedaling up to a generator and get some use out of it.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 28, 2013 at 04:34:02 pm     #   2 people liked this

SensorG posted at 03:02:41 PM on Jan 28, 2013:

Wow, GZ is suggestion someone should go on lithium...again, wow, Mr. Kettle? Have you met Mr. Black?

You missed the fact that GZ is now a doctor, a mental health professional in fact, capable of diagnosing people over the Internet on the basis of what they post on one forum.

We can however make a conclusion about GZ's brain, or lack thereof, by checking out this article.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 28, 2013 at 04:45:04 pm     #   1 person liked this

...another thread comes to an end. Constructive or destructive? That's up to the powers that be I guess.

Anyone know of a good Mexican restaurant?

posted by Molsonator on Jan 28, 2013 at 04:48:00 pm     #  

El Tipico. Recently remodeled.

posted by Sohio on Jan 28, 2013 at 04:52:59 pm     #  

azul tequila...oh wait, it was right across from the new casino (brilliant location) and went belly-up

posted by justareviewer on Jan 28, 2013 at 06:17:08 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 02:59:40 PM on Jan 28, 2013:

AC said: An important point which GZ et. al. forget, is that people want easy access to these places and easy parking.

If the new rule for development is "0 lights off the interstate" then that's about 1% of the land that would previously have qualified. The "nowhere land" where the old arena was, is a short distance from I-280, with minimal lights, which could have been changed in the favor of the new location anyway.

Sounds like you're just predicting the past, AC. You don't know the design specs of the casino land. But it sure does seem the developer had an allergy for Toledo proper... which makes sense, since this place is truly awful for real development. We shouldn't expect to see a corporate HQ appear in downtown Toledo, for instance.

If you want on top of the expressway, how about the land where the old Jeep plant was, its on I75, 30 seconds from I475, and 5 minutes from I280, central-ish location, Lots of room for parking, land has to be cheap.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 28, 2013 at 06:20:32 pm     #  

"how about the land where the old Jeep plant was"

no no no no no LC, the Port Authority needs that land so they can literally build random, generic warehouses for tenants they don't actually have yet. No sense in letting the real estate companies that already own warehousing space in Toledo handle that.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 28, 2013 at 06:24:57 pm     #  

And AC YOU'RE still a troll, dismissing my grammar doesn't dismiss that fact.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 28, 2013 at 06:29:47 pm     #  

"how about the land where the old Jeep plant was"

Interesting. It never occurred to me. Yes, you're right, and the land probably requires such remediation that covering it up again with development and parking might have made sense. Remediation-knowledgeable folks, pipe up here to correct me.

Then again, it was in T-O-L-E-D-O, a.k.a. the pimple on Ohio's ass. So I'm sure it didn't even rate.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 28, 2013 at 09:30:51 pm     #  

Is it possible that Penn National Gaming chose the location of Toledo's casino, and they made it appear that Carty chose the spot?

It's hard to believe that Penn had no input on the possible Toledo casino locations.

The Columbus casino location is clearly not located in its downtown. And the current location of the Columbus casino is not the original location described on the November 2009 statewide ballot issue. Another state-wide ballot issue appeared in May 2010 that allowed for the Columbus casino location to be changed.

April 2010 comment in the thread If Columbus can change their casino location

Columbus's casino site location will not change unless the May 4 statewide ballot issue passes.

One reason why Columbus was able to get this change issue on the May 4 ballot may be because Franklin County was the only big urban county that voted against the casino issue.

Apparently, Columbus residents were adamantly opposed to its casino site location from the beginning, which is probably why the issue got defeated there. Maybe Columbus residents knew that if they defeated the statewide issue locally, they could get a second chance later.

Toledoans approved the casino issue, which by default also means Toledoans approved of the Toledo site location.

If Toledoans had disapproved of the site location, then Toledoans would have had to organize an effort to defeat the issue [locally] before last November's [2009] vote.

From the vote results map listed further down in this comment, the casino issue also failed in Montgomery County (Dayton), although it's probably not considered a big urban area.


June 2011 comment by Johio83 about Toledo's casino location:

I've heard from some people connected to the deal that they chose the [casino] location because it is close to a highway, but secluded enough from other things that it will keep patrons from straying to other entertainment stops that might take away some [casino] profits.


The text for the November 2009 Ohio Issue 3 initiative to amend the state constitution to permit casino gambling in only four Ohio cities: Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, and Toledo. This text or something very close to it would have appeared on the ballot.

Toledo (The casino in Toledo, Ohio will be located on approximately 44.24 acres currently known as 1968 Miami Street, located on the south side of the Maumee River and on the north side of Miami Street with Interstate Highway 75 running north to south thru the real property).
...

Toledo: Being an approximate 44.24 acre area in the City of Toledo, Lucas County, Ohio, as identified by the Lucas County Auditor, as of 03/05/09, as tax parcel number 18-76138 and 18-76515.


Below are the county results for the statewide casino Issue 3 in November 2009. The green indicates the counties where the casino issue passed.

Since the issue was defeated in Franklin County, and Columbus is the center of state government, that's probably why Columbus was able to change its casino location. Even if Lucas County residents defeated the issue, but it still passed statewide, do you think Toledo would have received a do-over like Columbus?

posted by jr on Jan 28, 2013 at 10:05:59 pm     #  

And that's locked in your states constitution, seems a little silly to give Penn a legal monopoly for casinos.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 28, 2013 at 10:50:14 pm     #  

LC said: seems a little silly to give Penn a legal monopoly for casinos.

That's exactly why I voted against it, and I said so at the time, perhaps even on this very website. The ability to gamble in Ohio should be expressly legal. It's a natural right of man. That means all men in Ohio, not just a few businesses or state officials.

Also, what's this I've been hearing about the slot machines in Toledo being "tight"? Any credence to that rumor?

posted by GuestZero on Jan 29, 2013 at 11:01:03 am     #  

-Azul Tequila did not go "belly up" as a result of poor sales. They lost their liquor license due to violations. For a Mexican restaurant it's game over. It's still a viable location for a restaurant, imo.

-"tight" slots is purely anectdotal. I havent heard really one way or the other.

-wanna see negativity? Go to to FB page for Hollywood Casino. Talk about a bunch of whiiiiinnnnnnneeeerrrrrssssss.

posted by BulldogBuckeye on Jan 29, 2013 at 12:35:35 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 10:01:03 AM on Jan 29, 2013:

LC said: seems a little silly to give Penn a legal monopoly for casinos.

That's exactly why I voted against it, and I said so at the time, perhaps even on this very website. The ability to gamble in Ohio should be expressly legal. It's a natural right of man. That means all men in Ohio, not just a few businesses or state officials.

Also, what's this I've been hearing about the slot machines in Toledo being "tight"? Any credence to that rumor?

Bullshit again, GZ. There is no "natural right to gamble", nor does such a thing exist in the federal Constitution, and the state one had to be amended BY THE PEOPLE to allow what gambling we do have.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 29, 2013 at 12:42:40 pm     #  

"-Azul Tequila did not go "belly up" as a result of poor sales. They lost their liquor license due to violations. For a Mexican restaurant it's game over."

Care to reference this BulldogBuckeye? That is not what I heard.

posted by Molsonator on Jan 29, 2013 at 12:47:07 pm     #  

anonymouscoward posted at 11:42:40 AM on Jan 29, 2013:
GuestZero posted at 10:01:03 AM on Jan 29, 2013:

LC said: seems a little silly to give Penn a legal monopoly for casinos.

That's exactly why I voted against it, and I said so at the time, perhaps even on this very website. The ability to gamble in Ohio should be expressly legal. It's a natural right of man. That means all men in Ohio, not just a few businesses or state officials.

Also, what's this I've been hearing about the slot machines in Toledo being "tight"? Any credence to that rumor?

Bullshit again, GZ. There is no "natural right to gamble", nor does such a thing exist in the federal Constitution, and the state one had to be amended BY THE PEOPLE to allow what gambling we do have.

Well technically you have the right to gamble, gamble could be construed a number of ways not just wagering money in a casino. The lottery is a form of gambling, horse racing, office football pool, walking though a questionable neighborhood, riding a motorcycle through Ottawa Hills, investing in stocks. It's not in the constitution.
But I think Toledo would have been better served had the casino been put downtown, across from downtown or where the sports arena stood.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 29, 2013 at 02:06:17 pm     #  

"For a Mexican restaurant it's game over."

Not necessarily. El Tipico would be an example - I believe there are a couple of others as well.

I know of a couple in the Detroit suburbs that serve nothing but soft drinks and do extremely well.

posted by Foodie on Jan 29, 2013 at 02:20:03 pm     #  

Taco Bell and Del Taco don't serve alcohol… :)

posted by SensorG on Jan 29, 2013 at 02:33:43 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 10:01:03 AM on Jan 29, 2013:

LC said: seems a little silly to give Penn a legal monopoly for casinos.

That's exactly why I voted against it, and I said so at the time, perhaps even on this very website. The ability to gamble in Ohio should be expressly legal. It's a natural right of man. That means all men in Ohio, not just a few businesses or state officials.

Also, what's this I've been hearing about the slot machines in Toledo being "tight"? Any credence to that rumor?

It's possible the slots in Toledo are tight. Slots are programmed. They aren't really random. A slot machine is programmed by its owner to pay out a certain percentage of the money it takes in. In most places, there is a law that states what that percentage has to be. So, if you sit down and play a particular slot machine [say it's manufactured by Bally, for example] here in Toledo, your odds may be different than if you played the same model of slot machine in, say, Reno or Las Vegas. Or Atlantic City, or Michigan. You name it.

This is the way I understand it, anyway.

posted by Sohio on Jan 29, 2013 at 02:35:35 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 10:01:03 AM on Jan 29, 2013:

LC said: seems a little silly to give Penn a legal monopoly for casinos.

That's exactly why I voted against it, and I said so at the time, perhaps even on this very website. The ability to gamble in Ohio should be expressly legal. It's a natural right of man. That means all men in Ohio, not just a few businesses or state officials.

Also, what's this I've been hearing about the slot machines in Toledo being "tight"? Any credence to that rumor?

'The ability to gamble in Ohio should be expressly legal.'
--WE AGREE!

'It's a natural right of man.'
--

posted by Sohio on Jan 29, 2013 at 02:37:16 pm     #  

'It's a natural right of man.'
--[Sohio bangs head against wall]

posted by Sohio on Jan 29, 2013 at 02:38:05 pm     #  

Taco Bell and Del Taco don't serve alcohol… :)

Yet I remember them both only being edible if I was drunk...

College.

posted by oldhometown on Jan 29, 2013 at 02:38:13 pm     #  

"But I think Toledo would have been better served had the casino been put downtown, across from downtown or where the sports arena stood."

But would Penn National Gaming be better served if the casino was located in the Marina District? I say, "No."

And when you say, "Toledo would have been better served," what are you referring to?

Do you mean the casino would attract more people and thus make more money, which translates into more revenue going to local government, the schools, etc? Or do you mean that other businesses near the casino would benefit from the casino visitors?

If the latter, that's not what the casino wants. The casino wants visitors and its employees to spend their money only at the casino. It's been listed many times here that casino visitors mostly go to the casino, and then they go home. Casino visitors do not have an interest in visiting other places. Nearby businesses receive little to no extra traffic from casino patrons.

The casino location has nothing to do with helping other businesses. The main concern of the casino location is attracting the most customers. A lot of traffic passes the casino on I-75, and since the building and the new tall sign sit close to the highway, it's hard to miss. People may see it and think about visiting in the future. Or constantly seeing it on their daily travels around the area may reinforce the need to visit.

A casino located in the Marina District has limited exposure, practically hidden, compared to sitting next to I-75. On I-280, all the traffic in the northbound lanes and one or two of the southbound lanes could easily miss seeing the casino in the Marina District.

As always, location matters, and for Penn National Gaming, having the casino perched next to I-75 seems superior to the Marina District.

posted by jr on Jan 29, 2013 at 03:06:03 pm     #  

That's it, time for some roulette tonight......$$$$

posted by Hoops on Jan 29, 2013 at 03:38:54 pm     #  

I would think the casino would do better in Toledo---the home of people who expect something for nothing.

posted by Wulf on Jan 29, 2013 at 05:33:27 pm     #  

jr posted at 02:06:03 PM on Jan 29, 2013:

"But I think Toledo would have been better served had the casino been put downtown, across from downtown or where the sports arena stood."

But would Penn National Gaming be better served if the casino was located in the Marina District? I say, "No."

And when you say, "Toledo would have been better served," what are you referring to?

Do you mean the casino would attract more people and thus make more money, which translates into more revenue going to local government, the schools, etc? Or do you mean that other businesses near the casino would benefit from the casino visitors?

If the latter, that's not what the casino wants. The casino wants visitors and its employees to spend their money only at the casino. It's been listed many times here that casino visitors mostly go to the casino, and then they go home. Casino visitors do not have an interest in visiting other places. Nearby businesses receive little to no extra traffic from casino patrons.

The casino location has nothing to do with helping other businesses. The main concern of the casino location is attracting the most customers. A lot of traffic passes the casino on I-75, and since the building and the new tall sign sit close to the highway, it's hard to miss. People may see it and think about visiting in the future. Or constantly seeing it on their daily travels around the area may reinforce the need to visit.

A casino located in the Marina District has limited exposure, practically hidden, compared to sitting next to I-75. On I-280, all the traffic in the northbound lanes and one or two of the southbound lanes could easily miss seeing the casino in the Marina District.

As always, location matters, and for Penn National Gaming, having the casino perched next to I-75 seems superior to the Marina District.

I mean Toledo would be better served if traffic had to go through an area to get to the casino. Jumping off and back on I75, doesn't seem to get anyone interested in anything but the casino. Then again Penn isn't interested in anything but folks spending money inside their building and that makes business sense too. They got what they wanted, I doubt anyone around in the local area or who pushed so hard for it will get what they expected.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 29, 2013 at 06:06:43 pm     #  

Wulf posted at 04:33:27 PM on Jan 29, 2013:

I would think the casino would do better in Toledo---the home of people who expect something for nothing.

That sentiment makes no sense. You don't get 'something for nothing' at a casino. You have to put up some of your own money to even have a chance at getting anything back. And if you lose, you get the opposite: nothing for something.

posted by Sohio on Jan 29, 2013 at 06:32:12 pm     #  

For comparison: attended the auto show last week in Detroit. For the heck of it, drove through my formerly beloved Greektown (to visit my mispent youth) since we hadn't been through there in a couple of years.

For decades, visited Greektown (NOT the casino) at least several times a year. Stopped going shortly after the casino was built and started buying up the surrounding property (decades old, family restaurants) and tearing them down. Actually, ceased going before that occurred because the quality of the food had gone way down hill.

We were pretty shocked by what we saw. So many of the old restaurants are gone. There is now a Five Guys (bleck!) and a Cold Stone Creamery among others. It appears the old parking structure across from the church on Monroe at the end of Greektown was replaced by one built by the casino. Parking is $20!! Unless you are a casino "card member" then there is no charge. For all I know, even if you aren't a card member, maybe the casino validates your parking.

My point being that the casino (IMHO) is destroying what was once a great place you could go to enjoy outstanding Greek food, music and drink until 4 am - and feel perfectly safe when you left to go home. They appear to be doing so by buying up everything around them and then making parking for anything but the casino prohibitively expensive. There is limited on street parking but good luck getting one of those spots.

We ended up having a late lunch at Pegasus Taverna - at their St. Clair Shores location - not the Greektown location. I had a conversation with the owner of Pegasus who pretty much confirmed everything we saw and thought about what is happening in Greektown. He said he has been approached and offered a hefty sum for his Greektown location (more than once) but says he will never sell. Well, everyone has their price so I'm sure it is just a matter of time.

Maybe I have more of a soft spot for Greektown than most because I have so many fond memories of great food and good times there but I find it very sad.

posted by Foodie on Jan 29, 2013 at 06:37:40 pm     #  

"I doubt anyone around in the local area or who pushed so hard for it will get what they expected."

What were Toledoans expecting?

Before the 2009 vote, the only thing that I remember people expecting was keeping more money in Ohio instead of that money going to surrounding states that offered casino gambling, and that has happened. Even if the amount has not met projections, some money that would have gone to Michigan's casinos has stayed in Toledo.

This casino revenue is suppose to be new money for the local area, so anything is a bonus. But if public officials spent the new casino money before receiving it, well, I'm Jack's complete lack of surprise. What a shock. Who didn't see that happening?

Something that I've wondered about: How much local entertainment spending has shifted from other Toledo area businesses to the casino? We may never know that answer, unless casino patrons are surveyed.

If anyone expected the casinos to help other local businesses, they were misguided or misinformed. The notion that casinos want to be isolated in the local economy is not new. This was known before construction began on Toledo's casino.

People wanted casino gambling and got it. Toledo's casino opened. That's pretty much it.

To me, anything revenue-wise about the casino is a non-story. First, it needs to be in business for a little over a year before comparisons can be made. The first two months have to be tossed out because of the newness factor. Compare August 2013 casino business to August 2012. I would think that January, February, and March in this area would be good for the casino. So next year, compare February 2014 with February 2013.

posted by jr on Jan 29, 2013 at 07:32:16 pm     #  

There is a sign touting Jill's Bar & Grill in the former Azul Tequila spot in the five star hotel located next to the casino (other side of I-75)

posted by Hoops on Feb 04, 2013 at 10:39:39 am     #  

I wonder how long that will last?

To me, the only thing that will have staying power across the street from the casino is a CLEAN hotel with a restaurant serving either CHEAP or VERY good food.

posted by upso on Feb 04, 2013 at 11:10:52 am     #  

"To me, the only thing that will have staying power across the street from the casino"...how bout a check cashing place?

posted by justareviewer on Feb 04, 2013 at 02:16:43 pm     #  

justareviewer posted at 01:16:43 PM on Feb 04, 2013:

"To me, the only thing that will have staying power across the street from the casino"...how bout a check cashing place?

Doesn't the casino take checks?

posted by Linecrosser on Feb 04, 2013 at 02:22:20 pm     #  

jr posted at 06:32:16 PM on Jan 29, 2013:

"I doubt anyone around in the local area or who pushed so hard for it will get what they expected."

What were Toledoans expecting?

Before the 2009 vote, the only thing that I remember people expecting was keeping more money in Ohio instead of that money going to surrounding states that offered casino gambling, and that has happened. Even if the amount has not met projections, some money that would have gone to Michigan's casinos has stayed in Toledo.

This casino revenue is suppose to be new money for the local area, so anything is a bonus. But if public officials spent the new casino money before receiving it, well, I'm Jack's complete lack of surprise. What a shock. Who didn't see that happening?

Something that I've wondered about: How much local entertainment spending has shifted from other Toledo area businesses to the casino? We may never know that answer, unless casino patrons are surveyed.

If anyone expected the casinos to help other local businesses, they were misguided or misinformed. The notion that casinos want to be isolated in the local economy is not new. This was known before construction began on Toledo's casino.

People wanted casino gambling and got it. Toledo's casino opened. That's pretty much it.

To me, anything revenue-wise about the casino is a non-story. First, it needs to be in business for a little over a year before comparisons can be made. The first two months have to be tossed out because of the newness factor. Compare August 2013 casino business to August 2012. I would think that January, February, and March in this area would be good for the casino. So next year, compare February 2014 with February 2013.

You're being absurdly logical. You know logical doesn't mix with far too many posters here.

posted by anonymouscoward on Feb 04, 2013 at 02:24:46 pm     #  

http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/22784446/revenues-down-in-june-at-ohios-4-casinos

More decline.

posted by Molsonator on Jul 08, 2013 at 05:46:05 pm     #  

food or medicine > gambling imho

posted by Linecrosser on Jul 08, 2013 at 06:07:29 pm     #  

3% isn't too bad considering the state of things up there. However, they really need to expand the appeal of the location. Onside hotel, boat docks with dock side restaurants, additional hotel development across Miami St with skywalks crossing over...etc.

There is a lot that can be done with the area. Of course it would have been better downtown to assist other existing venues to develop, but that's long past.

posted by JustaSooner on Jul 08, 2013 at 06:18:53 pm     #  

We took the big drop last fall. Cincinnati took the big hit now. I don't know the answer though.

posted by Molsonator on Jul 08, 2013 at 06:23:59 pm     #  

I recently contributed to their revenue stream via 2 hrs. of wagering...ya know, just to help them out...bastards

posted by justareviewer on Jul 08, 2013 at 08:37:05 pm     #  

Not to mention if you bought a beer there.

posted by Molsonator on Jul 08, 2013 at 08:51:35 pm     #  

I apologize for not donating to their profits last month. On a single visit last month I won enough to cover my two adult beverages, fill up my car with gas, and have dinner at Nick & Jimmy's.

posted by Hoops on Jul 09, 2013 at 08:29:53 am     #  

JustaSooner posted at 06:18:53 PM on Jul 08, 2013:

3% isn't too bad considering the state of things up there. However, they really need to expand the appeal of the location. Onside hotel, boat docks with dock side restaurants, additional hotel development across Miami St with skywalks crossing over...etc.

There is a lot that can be done with the area. Of course it would have been better downtown to assist other existing venues to develop, but that's long past.

Toledo is a dead market, what kind of business group would drop 10's of millions (if not hundreds) to build all these things you claim would save the site. The average income in the area continues to decline and general state of the entire region is in decline but in your opinion adding "lots of new shiney stuff" will want to make mom and pop white bread come to a city rife with crime and looks like an industrial leftover of a town. If people don't feel financially secure they are not going to come shit their money away no matter how "cool" it is. "Well to do folk" just aint coming to Toledo to spend their money, it's just a fact you are going to have to deal with.

Yet you will post something about how OKC and how similar it is and how they did it by building shiney new shit but then leave out their underground rivers of gold and said tax revenue it generates.

posted by dbw8906 on Jul 09, 2013 at 10:51:29 am     #   1 person liked this

We need an amusement park and water park down by the river!!!!

posted by stooks on Jul 09, 2013 at 10:53:09 am     #  

stooks posted at 10:53:09 AM on Jul 09, 2013:

We need an amusement park and water park down by the river!!!!

I know this was probably said tongue-in-cheek, but I'm always amused (pun intended) by those who actually believe this bullshit. Especially since the city can barely keep up with the pools it already has. Now, we're going to add more to our costs (including massive liability insurance costs) too?

It's this type of political brilliance that makes Toledo a shining beacon to cities nationwide.

In keeping with the theme of this thread (lower casino revenues), what we really need are more degenerates. Desperate, down-on-luck, sell their mother to a biker gang for five bucks lowlifes who practically live at the casino and pour every cent they get their hands on into the place. For the city and for the children.

But the steakhouse is good. Yay steak!

posted by oldhometown on Jul 09, 2013 at 11:49:53 am     #   1 person liked this

Again i ask - What is the saturation point of casinos? Seems as the other sites opened, revenues went down in Toledo. How many is too many? In a three hour radius there are what 5 other casinos?

posted by Molsonator on Jul 09, 2013 at 01:04:39 pm     #  

DBW, thanks for saving me some typing.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jul 09, 2013 at 01:33:08 pm     #  

WE NEED OPAL AS A MAYOR!

Just Kidding.
I literally was just making a joke about the "amusement parks" hell just drive through some of the neighborhoods if you want an amusement park. lol;-)

posted by stooks on Jul 09, 2013 at 01:58:25 pm     #  

^^Speaking of which......this past Saturday, we needed to get from the Farmer's Market out to Select Stone on Airport Hwy. I figured the shortest route was to take the Trail to Western. Wow. Haven't traveled that stretch of Western for a very long time - and won't be doing it again anytime soon.

posted by Foodie on Jul 09, 2013 at 02:10:00 pm     #  

dbw8906 posted at 10:51:29 AM on Jul 09, 2013:
JustaSooner posted at 06:18:53 PM on Jul 08, 2013:

3% isn't too bad considering the state of things up there. However, they really need to expand the appeal of the location. Onside hotel, boat docks with dock side restaurants, additional hotel development across Miami St with skywalks crossing over...etc.

There is a lot that can be done with the area. Of course it would have been better downtown to assist other existing venues to develop, but that's long past.

Toledo is a dead market, what kind of business group would drop 10's of millions (if not hundreds) to build all these things you claim would save the site. The average income in the area continues to decline and general state of the entire region is in decline but in your opinion adding "lots of new shiney stuff" will want to make mom and pop white bread come to a city rife with crime and looks like an industrial leftover of a town. If people don't feel financially secure they are not going to come shit their money away no matter how "cool" it is. "Well to do folk" just aint coming to Toledo to spend their money, it's just a fact you are going to have to deal with.

Yet you will post something about how OKC and how similar it is and how they did it by building shiney new shit but then leave out their underground rivers of gold and said tax revenue it generates.

The OKC references are just to point out how thinking outside the box help. All the new shiney things OKC built were done through sales tax dollars from the city. Additional investments have definitely come from the O&G companies here (the river boathouses for example). The economy is much more diversified than that...only $500 million in sales tax revenue is general from O&G statewide. The sales tax for the MAPS projects are OKC city sales tax only (cities set their own sales tax here, not counties). So take it for what you will.

The point I was making was to develop the site as a destination. Detroit is dead too, yet somehow the MGM manages to put people in their hotel every night. Your highly inflated costs for the projects I had mentioned show how out of touch you seem to be with the scale I'm talking.

Of course we could again take this into another discussion about what the future of Toledo should be and how to best position itself. Unfortunately I don't think you are here to seriously have that discussion.

posted by JustaSooner on Jul 09, 2013 at 02:47:52 pm     #   1 person liked this

Molsonator posted at 01:04:39 PM on Jul 09, 2013:

Again i ask - What is the saturation point of casinos? Seems as the other sites opened, revenues went down in Toledo. How many is too many? In a three hour radius there are what 5 other casinos?

That region is probably well past the saturation point. At this point it becomes making your site better than the others and wait for those to shut down.

Granted I look at Hollywood Toledo as more of a regional casino that will serve its select market and not really waver much either way in revenues. Small changes like those experience will go back and forth.

Hypothetically the better solution for a Toledo area casino would have been to give a company like Caesars or MGM Maumee Bay State Park and let them put a casino there are run it as a resort on the lake. Then you are making more a destination and less of a random run of the mill casino.

Here we have a casino usually within a 10-15 minutes drive of wherever you live in the state (thanks Indiana Territory). I would say the more notable ones are comparable to the size of Hollywood Toledo, but also have some form of hotel on site for bus tours coming in. The largest of course is Winstar in the middle of nowhere in Southern OK, but they are feeding off Dallas demand there. Which is why it is the 2nd largest casino in the world. Now if Texas legalized casinos it would be hurt a ton and we would see the same situation you guys have there now.

At some point something will give. The surviving facilities will be those that set themselves apart and transforms into an attraction that bring people in. They can't be sustained by the local economy.

posted by JustaSooner on Jul 09, 2013 at 02:57:21 pm     #  

I'm dating myself here, but I remember when the state run lottery began. The big "Sell" was how much money the program was bring in and fund schools and senior citizen programs. Fast forward to recently, I believe Pennsylvania stated that their lottery program was going to be or close to bankrupt, and I'm pretty sure the promised profits are far less than what was expected for other states.

posted by hockeyfan on Jul 09, 2013 at 03:38:08 pm     #  

hockeyfan posted at 03:38:08 PM on Jul 09, 2013:

I'm dating myself here, but I remember when the state run lottery began. The big "Sell" was how much money the program was bring in and fund schools and senior citizen programs. Fast forward to recently, I believe Pennsylvania stated that their lottery program was going to be or close to bankrupt, and I'm pretty sure the promised profits are far less than what was expected for other states.

I think every lottery is started with that promise. It was here about 7 years ago. I laughed when it was called the "education lottery". Would have been fine if schools didn't adjust their budgets to count on that money instead of just waiting for the "end of the year bonus" to buy shiny things.

posted by JustaSooner on Jul 09, 2013 at 04:32:00 pm     #   1 person liked this