Toledo Talk

Imagination Station levy passes after provisional ballots added

I'm surprised no one here has commented on this yet - I recall there being some very vocal opponents of the levy.

It barely squeaked by. Final vote result was 50.08% for, 49.92% against. Difference of only 306 votes.

There will be an automatic recount, because the final tally was decided by less than half a percent.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Politics/2012/11/26/Imagination-Station-levy-passes-after-provisional-ballots-are-counted.html

created by mom2 on Nov 26, 2012 at 07:30:53 pm     Local-Politics     Comments: 32

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I'm surprised no one here has commented on this yet - I recall there being some very vocal opponents of the levy.

Judging by the massive drop of activity on the politics forum, I'd guess that most people--after the non-stop bludgeoning of political ads through the months of July - October (plus early November)--are simply emotionally and mentally spent. No flippin' more...please.

Count me as one of them. While I do like reading your insightful comments, mom2, I look at this story and simply say "whatever." The people have spoken and now have to live with it.

posted by oldhometown on Nov 26, 2012 at 07:50:39 pm     #   4 people liked this

Ah well I'm out of state and don't have to pay your levies. Bludgeon yourselves to death if you want to, at some point the endless well of tax money is going to dry up.

posted by Linecrosser on Nov 26, 2012 at 08:29:01 pm     #  

I'm glad it passed. Our grandchildren, the younger ones, love to go there. And the cost per year is less than a specialty coffee.

I'm out of the mainstream on this message board but I believe that many things improve the quality of life in our area, i.e. library, metro parks, IS, etc.

I was extremely glad when the election was over. I never want to see or hear another political ad.

posted by jackie on Nov 26, 2012 at 09:22:03 pm     #   2 people liked this

I'm glad it passed. I hope it survives the recount. Apparently recounts rarely change the outcome.

posted by holland on Nov 26, 2012 at 11:50:44 pm     #   1 person liked this

I'm glad it passed as well. My wife and I recently sat down and looked at how all of the levies would effect us - prior to its passage we were paying less than $6 a year towards Imagination Station. Compare that to $85 for the zoo and $80 for the Metroparks.

posted by idinspired on Nov 27, 2012 at 10:12:22 am     #   2 people liked this

Here's an idea for all you "glad it passed" folks. How about they raise their prices to the point where they can support themselves like any other business?

That way they can get their hand out of my pocket.

posted by JeepMaker on Nov 27, 2012 at 10:56:18 am     #   2 people liked this

The CEO makes over $90,000 a year! What????? It makes NO Money!

posted by Molsonator on Nov 27, 2012 at 11:29:17 am     #  

How much does the CEO of Hostess make?

$90k is what the average salary of a senior IT or finance position in Toledo. I canít believe they can find someone to take the job for that little frankly.

posted by SensorG on Nov 27, 2012 at 11:41:36 am     #   3 people liked this

With the levy support from Lucas County, it is time for Imagination Station to up its game in thanking Lucas County residents.

Currently you are thanked by a $.50 discount on a ticket. Also, there is free admission for kids on Saturday only, but that requires a $9.50 ticket. So even on a "free" Saturday, it costs a family of four $19 + parking to attend.

On a non "free" Saturday, it is $34 plus parking.

posted by Spaceace on Nov 27, 2012 at 12:58:52 pm     #  

90k seems about right, if not a bit low for a CEO position. Don't know how you'd hire anyone competent at that level for less.

posted by endcycle on Nov 27, 2012 at 01:15:43 pm     #   1 person liked this

CEO of Hostess vs. publicly financed Imagine Station. You are right. They are comparable.

posted by Molsonator on Nov 27, 2012 at 03:12:58 pm     #  

Is this a function of Government? Why is MY money going to this again?

posted by Danneskjold on Nov 27, 2012 at 03:56:48 pm     #  

Is it not the role of the public school system to teach our children science? We need to pay for another redundant services as well. They knew they could get a levy passed on this ticket where so many non tax paying citizens were voting. Period.

posted by Danneskjold on Nov 27, 2012 at 04:03:47 pm     #   1 person liked this

You're the one who thought that a the CEO of Imagination Station making $20k less than a Wal-Mart Pharmacist was making making WAY too money.

I'm pointing out that that $90k for that job is WAY low.

posted by SensorG on Nov 27, 2012 at 04:09:59 pm     #   3 people liked this

Molsonator posted at 02:12:58 PM on Nov 27, 2012:

CEO of Hostess vs. publicly financed Imagine Station. You are right. They are comparable.

comparable quality, yes.

posted by madjack on Nov 27, 2012 at 06:51:06 pm     #  

I just went to the Imagination Station last week and I am a long way from being impressed. The exhibits are designed to accommodate one to three supervised children at once, and the place is fiendishly expensive to heat and cool (big surprise, right?) The exhibit on solar energy is nothing more than a badly crafted commercial advocating solar over everything else and carefully makes no mention of government subsidies.

The gift shop sells junk. The food is lousy and overpriced.

Worse, we had several bus loads of elementary school children dumped out, and they acted like howler monkeys. The adults were no where to be seen.

posted by madjack on Nov 27, 2012 at 06:57:03 pm     #  

OOOOOhhhhh. You just called elementary school children "monkeys."
Obviously you are racist.

<Tongue pokes cheek.>

posted by justread on Nov 27, 2012 at 07:13:55 pm     #  

Place to dump the kids for a couple hours.

posted by Linecrosser on Nov 27, 2012 at 07:27:51 pm     #  

And the cost per year is less than a specialty coffee.

But that's not your money, Jackie. How many times do you have to be told this?

Maybe you won't put up a fight when one of Toledo's "monkeys" relieves you of your purse outside your residence. They have every right to vote their way into your purse, right? Same thing, really.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 27, 2012 at 09:48:18 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 08:48:18 PM on Nov 27, 2012:

And the cost per year is less than a specialty coffee.

But that's not your money, Jackie. How many times do you have to be told this?

Maybe you won't put up a fight when one of Toledo's "monkeys" relieves you of your purse outside your residence. They have every right to vote their way into your purse, right? Same thing, really.

Actually, it's not really the same thing:

1. Purse snatching ignores the democratic principles of Majority Rule and Consent of the Governed. Tax collection, at least in this case, abides by these concepts.

2. Collecting a tax which was approved by voters is legal, whereas taking someone's purse without their consent is not.

3. Although you may object equally to the collection of certain taxes as you would to the forceful seizure of your purse; the outcomes may differ. The taxes equal the simple removal of money; whereas the theft of your purse might also include the loss of tangible personal property; ie hairbrush, makeup, chewing gum/mints, photos, communication devices, credentials, sanitary napkins, and the purse itself.

4. If Jackie is wise, she won't put up a fight; the conventional wisdom among law enforcement is that you run the risk of making the situation worse if you resist muggers. It is perfectly safe, however, to "put up a fight" against taxes by speaking your mind in various ways and voting accordingly.

5. A purse-snatcher is not "voting" their way into your purse. If an election were held in this microcosm, the only eligible voters would be the purse owner and the potential thief; and it is likely this would result in a 50/50 vote split and would require a runoff vote that would likely have the same results in perpetuity. Therefore it is quicker and easier for the thief to stage the equivalent of a coup, that is, to just take it, without your consent and outside of the limits of their own rights.

So they are not really the same thing. Food for thought.

posted by Sohio on Nov 28, 2012 at 10:08:47 am     #   3 people liked this

" And the cost per year is less than a specialty coffee."

Jackie,that amounts to about 11 senior coffees at McDonalds. LOL!

posted by buckeye278 on Nov 28, 2012 at 10:47:50 am     #   1 person liked this

Purse snatching is a bad comparison, but what would would you call the voters who have no personal stake (renters) in the game, voting with your money (taxpayers)about how much and where your money goes? I think that if the money were all from say sales tax, the outcome may have been different.

posted by Linecrosser on Nov 28, 2012 at 10:55:15 am     #   2 people liked this

Linecrosser posted at 09:55:15 AM on Nov 28, 2012:

Purse snatching is a bad comparison, but what would would you call the voters who have no personal stake (renters) in the game, voting with your money (taxpayers)about how much and where your money goes? I think that if the money were all from say sales tax, the outcome may have been different.

I didn't say it was entirely fair. Or that I am entirely happy about it. I've gone on record here, saying that I think of that place as a glorified playground; in contrast to other publicly-funded institutions such as the library and metroparks, which I feel offer wider and more tangible benefits.

But, we did that debate to death.

I would argue that renters DO have a personal stake; if taxes get too high, their rent may be raised. Or, rather than that, a landlord may let the quality of the property suffer to make up the difference.

You also have to accept that this is an imperfect system, with some leaks here and there. I no longer live in the city of Toledo, so my taxes do not pay for Toledo city parks. Yet I use Cullen, Collins, and Walbridge parks quite often. Is that fair?

posted by Sohio on Nov 28, 2012 at 11:30:26 am     #   1 person liked this

GuestZero

"But that's not your money, Jackie. How many times do you have to be told this?"

Explain how this isn't my money going toward this levy. The system in this country it you put a levy to the people and majority wins. Fair and Simple.

Wishing "monkeys" to snatch my purse is is about as low as someone can get. I really take offense at that statement.

posted by jackie on Nov 28, 2012 at 12:24:11 pm     #  

Jackie, the Liberal blinders you have on are just huge. You don't actually have the right to take money from every property in the county and give it to a private business for its expenses. Obviously you don't own all those properties, just your own.

Running COSI or any private business isn't a function of government. There wasn't a need to actually codify that in the law due to cultural assumptions about the limitations of government. Now we've overrun those assumptions, yet haven't fixed the law to compensate.

Like most Liberals, you have zero education about the transformation of American society, and in fact historical warnings about such transformations. I could tell you to google up the quotes from Alexander Tyler (or Tytler; his name may be a pseudonym) about the perils of the people 'voting themselves money from the treasury', but what's the point? You agree that people can do that.

You're probably still wondering why people and businesses continue to flee Toledo. It's because of tax thieves like you.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 28, 2012 at 01:04:09 pm     #  

There are those who wish to participate in a Democracy ONLY when the democratic outcome is in line with their personal view.

Democracy: a form of government in which all eligible citizens have a say in the decisions which affect their lives. If you voted GZ, you've had your say.

posted by holland on Nov 28, 2012 at 01:06:24 pm     #   3 people liked this

I really take offense at that statement.

And that matters precisely zero.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 28, 2012 at 01:09:14 pm     #  

Holland, we don't live in a Democracy. Who lied to you about the form of US and state governments? Oh yeah, that's right: Public-school Liberals.

And as for having my say, I'm still having it.

Go back to school. Choose a real school this time.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 28, 2012 at 01:11:18 pm     #   1 person liked this

"...if you put a levy to the people and majority wins. Fair and Simple."

How many times did the original Imagination Station levy fail before it finally passed? And how many times did the "COSI" levy fail before COSI closed because it couldn't get a levy passed.

For some reason levy FAILURES aren't "fair", yet are considered fair when finally passed the 3rd or 4th time.

Somebody please explain how this is FAIR, simple yes, but "fair" is an outright lie.

posted by GTVT on Nov 28, 2012 at 02:00:40 pm     #   1 person liked this

It's just another way Lucas County wastes money.

And yes 90K is too much for it's CEO.

If it means so much to the schools then the schools should budget to fund it.

There is no reason they could not create a non-profit organization to accept donations and run it off of donations and entry fee.

This year over the course of several vacations I've attended several places like this. They are The San Diego Zoo, San Diego Zoo Safari Park, Bearizona, Out of Africa Safari Park, The Living Desert of Palm Springs (can you tell my son loves animals), and the Lowell Observatory. All of them are run by nonprofit organizations and not the government.

I can say with almost every one of these institutions we spent at least $100 per visit when admission, lunch, and souvenirs are accounted for. There is not a one I wouldn't classify as definitely worth the money I was charged. The highest single admission price I paid was $42. For that one it cost $120 to get the whole family in. I feel the money I paid and the access it got us was well worth the price of admission.

If you give people a good product they will pay more than enough to keep it running.

I could take my whole family to the Imagination Station for just a little more than it cost for just me to go to Bearizona and $20 less than it cost me for the San Diego Zoo. Unless if something major has changed in 7 years I will pass at every opportunity to go to the IS/COSI.

posted by MikeyA on Nov 29, 2012 at 03:12:37 pm     #  

Comparing the San Diego Zoo to Imagination Station isnít remotely accurate comparison.

How is SD Zoo only $20 more than Imagination Station for your family? Adult tickets are over $40 each while IS tickets are $10.

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/tickets/zootickets.html

I do like San Diegoís zoo federal funded "photovoltaic canopy" to help electric cars though.

posted by SensorG on Nov 29, 2012 at 03:35:06 pm     #  

Maybe I wasn't clear enough for my wording. I can take my whole family to the IS for the price of just me at the SD Zoo.

How is it not an accurate comparison? Both are catering to the same demographic. In fact, I'd argue that if anything the COSI/IS has a funding ADVANTAGE because the exhibits are built and that's it, only periodically will there be maintenance costs. A Zoo or animal exhibit requires continual cost to feed, vaccinate, treat, and even a large fee for disposal of animal remains, ON TOP of maintenance costs.

I spoke to one of the volunteer tour guides from the OOA Safari Park. They had a life-sized memorial to their deceased Rhino. I made a comment about how much that cost and he told me it was only a fraction of what it took to cremate the animal.

Even if you disagree with the SD Zoo comparison you must admit the Bearizona comparison is relatable. Bearizona is only a few years old, located far from the next biggest draw (as far away from from the Grand Canyon as Toledo is from Detroit).

posted by MikeyA on Nov 30, 2012 at 04:28:17 pm     #