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It's making its way up the tax brackets.

posted by charlatan on Mar 04, 2008 at 10:21:43 pm     #

In Toledo, you mean. And it's been accomplished by Toledoans. Toledo is to blame for Toledo's woes. Toledo's problems are not caused by the governor nor the president.

Unemployment rate in other Ohio cities :

18. Mentor 5.0
19. Columbus 4.9
20. Cleveland Hts. 4.6

posted by jr on Mar 04, 2008 at 11:13:41 pm     #

If you mix Cleve Hts and Mentor w/Cleveland, it's probably a more accurate picture. Combine Toledo's direct suburbs and it'll paint a similar picture. Albeit still unacceptable by any civilized measures.

Columbus has a bunch of state Gub jobs that are recession proof and some DoD installations that might be doing better with that perpetual dealio gone on in Iraq.

Toledo is tooled to be an auto supplier. I read something about the original Blade owners who envisioned Toledo as basically a truck stop.

High utilities, energy costs, housing bubble, lower disposable income all around....just doing a mental list of all the businesses that have went the way of the shitter in recent years. A lot of the health of any economy is centralized via banking, foreign trade regulation, war taxes etc.

I don't remember Toledoans adjusting interest rates or coming up with unbalanced trade policies with 3rd world countries. The latter would never pass if it was under local control. And it's likely that employment would be up and so would aggregate demand, keeping most of the small businesses up and running, and taxation at non-choking rates.

But the solution to all this is to build an Arena to employ migrant athletes for part of the year and replace low paying Toledo Sports Arena jobs with low paying Fifth Third Arena (I named it already) jobs.

Dan Lepkowski may be on to something. I'm going to shop for knock off Louis Vuitton bags right now.

posted by charlatan on Mar 05, 2008 at 02:37:20 am     #

How bad is the Toledo economy ? Really ??

Anybody out there know or talk to local small business owners, or people in retail sales, that might be experiencing tough economic times ?

Anybody have, or know of any local stories they want to share ?

posted by WalterAnthony on Mar 05, 2008 at 03:08:25 am     #

"I don't remember Toledoans adjusting interest rates or coming up with unbalanced trade policies with 3rd world countries."

Ah, yes, trade, Toledo's and Ohio's fall back card to blame its problems on. Sorry, doesn't work anymore. Toledo and the state has had a generation to adjust to the changing economy, and it's failed to do so for the most part.

Ohio is a "closed shop" state, which means workers can be forced to join a union whether they wish to or not. Many companies -- especially foreign-owned -- say they will not even consider such locations for new sites. States with "right to work" laws that make union organizing more difficult had twice the job growth of Ohio and other forced union states from 1995-2005, according to the National Institute for Labor Relations.

And ...

... staunchly Democratic Lucas County, dominated by Toledo, the second-most unionized city in the nation.

The second-most unionized city in the nation has the highest unemployment rate in the state of Ohio among big cities. No excuses. It's all Toledo's fault.

posted by jr on Mar 05, 2008 at 07:03:45 am     #

"Anybody out there know or talk to local small business owners, or people in retail sales, that might be experiencing tough economic times ?"

Someone is keeping Westfield Mall, Levis Commons, Westgate, Mall of Fallen Timbers, and the Sprinfield Meadows area alive. Someone is occupying the relatively new and large homes in the many housing divisions around Toledo. Either it's a heck of a lot of credit card debt, or the local economy is not nearly as bad as fear-mongers would want us to believe.

It's better for politicians if the public is convinced that 90% of homeowners are about to lose their homes and 90% of workers are about to lose their jobs.

When is the last time the local media did a story on metro area residents who ARE easily making their house payments and a story about area workers who are comfortable and happy with their jobs and saving enough money for a nice retirement?

Gasoline prices? Most around here don't care. People would be bitching about the price if it was a $1.50 per gallon. But most don't really care, since area roadways are still loaded with large personal vehicles that barrel down the road 10 to 20 miles an hour over the speed limit. And Toledo Jeep is cranking out brand new gas-guzzling vehicles that get 15 to 22 mpg.

posted by jr on Mar 05, 2008 at 07:31:28 am     #

Mar 5, 2008 Toledo Blade story titled Toledo voters give thumbs up to city, school tax requests.

Image and caption embedded in that Blade story about TSP's renewal tax :

Celebrating preliminary results that show Toledo Public Schools’ 6.5-mill levy passing are, from left, Patty Mazur, TPS communications director; Carol Thomas, TPS human resources director; school board member Lisa Sobecki; TPS Superintendent John Foley, his wife, Ellen Foley, and TPS supporter Charles Antal.

• 2006-07 School Report Card

• For Toledo residents, nearly 62% of our property taxes support the Toledo Public School system.

• Most TPS employees live outside the TPS district.

From a March 2004 Toledo Talk thread titled Mayor Ford loses support of black teachers :

Mr. Rahwae Shuman said : "What Mr. Ford failed to realize is that 70 percent of Mrs. Lawrence's membership lives outside of the city and can't vote for him."

Francine Lawrence is president of the Toledo Federation of Teachers union.

In an April 2007 Glass City Jungle thread, Karen Shanahan said :

... are you aware that 60% of the teachers and administrators of TPS live outside Toledo. They are supported by Toledoan fianancially but do not support Toledo with their residency. They have jobs in Toledo, why don’t they want to live here? It’s the school system.

In that same Mar 5, 2008 Toledo Blade story, Toledo City Councilman Mark Sobczak said after passage of the 25-year-old temporary 3/4% city tax :

"It'll be business as usual and we will say thank you to the voters who know that we have been spending their money wisely."

What a comforting thought.

From a June 2007 Toledo Talk thread titled Numbers on Toledo's continual population decline that pointed to a Blade story

Toledo's population loss since 2000 was the 10th-fastest among 258 U.S. cities with populations of more than 100,000 people. Toledo's population fell from 313,782 residents in 2000 to an estimated 298,446 last July [2006]. Ohio has more communities than any other state that fall among the top 10 big cities in terms of population loss.

From the Toledo Wikipedia entry about Toledo's population over the years:

1970 : 383,818
1980 : 354,635 -7.6%
1990 : 332,943 -6.1%
2000 : 313,619 -5.8%

And it appears the 2010 census will show Toledo's population to be around 295,000.

And according to Wikipedia: "The total U.S. population crossed the 100 million mark around 1915, the 200 million mark in 1967, and the 300 million mark in 2006."

So in the last 40 years or so, the U.S. population has increased 50% while Toledo's population has decreased 22%.

So let's keep paying "temporary" city and property taxes, and let's keep adding new taxes like last year's so-called refuse fee. It seems to be the magic formula for improving Toledo.

posted by jr on Mar 05, 2008 at 10:14:46 am     #

January 2007 comment by mholdri :

The self-sustaining (I don't like the word rich) and the young will move to the burbs where there is fewer social services. On the other hand, the non-self-sustaining and old stay in the city to take advantage of gov programs.

As the amount of "needy" increase so to does the taxes. The self-sustaining who pay the bills flee to areas where there isn't as much of a burden. Politicians who depend on the poor for votes will continue to give hand-outs until the bank is broke. Then simply repeat this cycle over-and-over again until you get Detroit.

posted by jr on Mar 05, 2008 at 11:00:55 am     #

I own a painting company and I have been over run with work the last few months. I actually have had to give a few big jobs away cause I already had a few that needed to be started. These jobs aren't in your well known wealthy area's either. The jobs aren't cheap either. So these people are comming up with money somewhere.

posted by camaroman2125 on Mar 05, 2008 at 11:41:17 pm     #

The self-sustaining (I don't like the word rich) and the young will move to the burbs where there is fewer social services.

What social services do cities have that the burbs don't?

Actually jshriver made a nice point before mholdri's comment, in that Americans started to move to the cities because of the industrial revolution. That's where the jobs were. Once we find people to do our manufacturing for us at a lower cost, jobs leave and people leave. I'd rather live in the burbs, not because of taxes or Carty--but because nothing beats country living (they have grass and trees there).

posted by Chris99 on Mar 06, 2008 at 12:09:52 am     #

Following the reactionary anti-union, everything I know about economics I learned through commercial radio talk show hosts spiel? Typical.

At least you pretend to be serious about it, which affords style points.

Of the many contributing factors to an economy's well-being or not, I would say unionization rates is down the list. Germany is roughly twice as unionized as the US. Sweden is 4 times. Guess where they rank in terms of standard of living?

posted by charlatan on Mar 06, 2008 at 02:22:13 am     #

"Following the reactionary anti-union, everything I know about economics I learned through commercial radio talk show hosts spiel?"

WTF? Pretty lame response to facts from the Columbus Dispatch, Wall Street Journal, and 13 ABC. But keep making a fool of yourself because it's entertaining.

posted by jr on Mar 06, 2008 at 08:03:01 am     #

Let's look at some statistics:
Automotive and automotive supply production output continues to go up due to productivity increases.
Biotech and medical services continue to increase due to aging of America.
Alternative energy output continues to increase due to cost of oil.

Employment in the automotive area will continue to decrease due to productivity increases due to automation.
Employment in the Biotech and medical fields will continue to increase due to aging of America.
Employment in the alternative energy fields will continue to increase because it is an emerging industry.

Not a bleak picture. But, where will these employees live? In the suburbs for quality of life.

It's time to look at the bigger picture. It's time to start living in Lake Erie West Communities, and Toledo will grow as a service center the way San Jose has grown as a service center for Silicon Valley.

Now, let's factor in the weak dollar which makes our products more affordable (and desirable) globally. Again, not a bleak picture.

And, speaking of unions in Germany, BMW is reported to be shifting its German production to its USA plant somewhere in the Southeast. (Cheaper to build it here and ship it back to Germany) Can you believe it?

posted by lew on Mar 06, 2008 at 09:46:10 am     #

The self-sustaining...will move to the burbs where there is fewer social services...the non-self-sustaining stay in the city to take advantage of gov programs.

As the amount of "needy" increase so to does the taxes... Politicians who depend on the poor for votes will continue to give hand-outs until the bank is broke...

Jr, good quote from Mholdri and very accurate.

Toledo is to blame for Toledo's woes. Toledo's problems are not caused by the governor nor the president.

And equally good point from you too.

However, I would note that only 25% of our $4 trillion total tax burden is state and local. Add to that another $500 billion in compliance costs for the federal tax code (not a tax itself but a cost of the tax which has the same effect on burden), and state and local taxes fall closer to being only 20% of the burden.

So you're point about Toledo being responsible for itself, in a proportional sense, is absolutely true. But at least Toledo's jurisdiction is limited - ie, people can leave and go to competing jurisdictions. So that way, after the meltdown, there are still people standing in Maumee and Sylvania or wherever.

The scary thing about doing what Toledo is doing on the federal level (which is exactly what is happening) is that there is no limit to the jurisdiction - competition is eliminated. There is nowhere to go but another country. Which means, in that case, the meltdown IS the country.

I don't mean to hijack the thread. If you love Toledo and have a passion for local issues (for better or worse, neither of those can be applied to me) - Toledo's problem is clear and you guys are all over it. But as long as it has been brought so well into focus, it is probably worthwhile to take those mechanics up two levels where it poses a much more real threat to survival.

But also, from a local perspective, it is worth noting that there is 4 times the opportunity to reduce tax burden by looking federally than there is by looking locally.

posted by babbleman on Mar 06, 2008 at 01:00:16 pm     #

How can you reduce the Federal Tax Burden when the National Debt has passed $9 trillion?

posted by lew on Mar 06, 2008 at 01:14:41 pm     #

Lew, maybe I should be more clear. When I say "tax burden" I am referring to spending. What is spent will be paid someday, even if it is not today. Therefore, if you want to know what your real tax is, look at what is being spent - not what is being billed today. Looking at only what is taxed would be like looking only at the minimum payment on a credit card during a period without considering how much you are increasing the balance during the period.

As Mholdri points out, social services are the key. The reason social services are not sustainable is because they are an investment in something that has a very low return - and the return is even lower by the time politicians and unions skim off the top.

This is Ok if everyone is getting the same return. But when there is an area next door that is getting higher returns, that's where the money goes. The only way to stop it is to move the effect to higher levels - stifling the competition for return. But you can only go so high. Eventually you hit the national level and that is it.

Wherever you stop, that is what is going to melt down.

So if socialism is the way we all decide to go - we better take over the world with it. This is exactly why socialism has such a high risk of totalitarianism or "strong men" cult of personalities.

posted by babbleman on Mar 06, 2008 at 01:40:34 pm     #

But anyway, lew, back to your question - the way to reduce federal tax burden is to reduce spending.

posted by babbleman on Mar 06, 2008 at 01:42:30 pm     #

So where are the stats besides anecdotal evidence of a correlation between unionization and high unemployment?

If this is given as an obvious fact, shouldn't there be lots of evidence to back it up?

I am a dumbass of the variety who likes stats and double blind studies...legitimate evidence to support my erroneous conclusions.

posted by charlatan on Mar 06, 2008 at 08:19:31 pm     #

THE WAY TO REDUCE THE FEDERAL TAX BURDEN IS TO REDUCE SPENDING.

Agreed!! Democrats = tax & spend; Republicans = tax & charge. The comon denominator = spend.

But, like a maxed out credit card, the National Debt at $9 trillion +, has put us over a barrel: must spend to pay the interest on National Debt; must spend for social security and medicare; must spend for the war and its aftermath; not much left for infrastructure, etc.!

The weak dollar is a direct result of us being mired in quicksand. How do you get out? Only time will tell.

posted by lew on Mar 07, 2008 at 03:22:56 pm     #

The weak dollar is a direct result of us being mired in quicksand. How do you get out?

1. Change the federal tax base to consumption. That way we would incentivize savings as opposed to the current tax incentive which is less productivity.

2. Eliminate the federal government's knowledge of individual income and wealth so that it cannot be used to divide the population.

3. Eliminate all forms of federal taxation but one - there is no good reason to have any more than 1 tax unless you are trying to fool someone.

Done. If we did the above three things, the federal government would be defunded down to essential-only levels in a matter of 5 years.

Capital supply would surge causing the economy to grow rapidly thus increasing the tax base making it an elegantly scalable system.

posted by babbleman on Mar 07, 2008 at 04:51:44 pm     #

I agree with babbleman. Tax wealth.

But on a deeper level, if modern finance is considered largely fraudulent and modern monetary policy is as well. Maybe taxation is along the same lines. So is government spending.

posted by charlatan on Mar 07, 2008 at 05:51:18 pm     #

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/07/news/economy/jobs_february/index.htm?cnn=yes

Job losses: Worst in 5 years
Payrolls sink in February, fueling recession anxiety. Unemployment rate declines, but that's because there are fewer people in the workforce.

posted by charlatan on Mar 07, 2008 at 05:52:53 pm     #

"Tax wealth."

Then why do some or many of the expensive new lofts, condos, and townhomes in downtown Toledo come with tax abatements for the residents?

From the Bartley Lofts features page :

• Twelve-Year Lucas County Property Tax Abatement

I don't remember if any of the Bartley Lofts are priced under $200,000, but some go over $300,000.

River West Townhomes on St. Clair St. downtown :

• Affordably Priced from $180,000
• 15 year transferrable TAX ABATEMENT

The site says, "Pay no property taxes while you own your home."

Their pricing page shows most of the townhomes to be over $200,000.

The River West Townhomes tax abatement page compares one of its townhomes to a home in Perrysburg.

• Perrysburg house :
  • Value : $223,600.00
  • Net Annual Tax : $3,724.95
  • Net Monthly Tax : $310.00

• River West Townhome :
  • Value : $223,600.00
  • Net Annual Tax : $250.00
  • Net Monthly Tax : $21.00

Toledo info from City-Data.com :

• Estimated median household income in 2005: $33,044 (it was $32,546 in 2000)
• Estimated median house/condo value in 2005: $94,800 (it was $75,300 in 2000)

By Toledo's standards, one would have to possess "wealth" to live in either Bartley or River West. So where's the local outrage about tax breaks for the wealthy even if it's a temporary tax break?

posted by jr on Mar 07, 2008 at 07:46:43 pm     #

Bartley Lofts : Twelve-Year Lucas County Property Tax Abatement

Does that mean a resident in Bartley does not contribute to the items listed below?
From the Lucas County Tax Distribution and Levy Estimator article :

Tax Distribution - General

Lucas County
Levies	Percentage
General Fund	3.91%
Metroparks - Operating	1.72%
Community Mental Health	2.11%
Board of Mental Retardation	6.03%
Children's Services	3.68%
Port Authority	0.42%
Toledo/Lucas County Library	2.64%
Zoo - Improvement	1.77%
Zoo - Operating	1.50%
911 Telephone	1.24%
Senior Services	0.79%
Metroparks Land	0.46%
Subtotal	26.27%

posted by jr on Mar 07, 2008 at 08:03:21 pm     #

I also agree with babbleman's 3 points. The question remains: how to implement them? I probably won't live that long!

posted by lew on Mar 08, 2008 at 05:34:06 pm     #

lew, try this: http://www.fairtax.org/

posted by babbleman on Mar 09, 2008 at 12:33:19 am     #

Babbleman, I have a question in regards to the Fair Tax. I don't have the time to read through it, so I'm hoping you'll know. If this tax is based on consumption, then won't this result in double taxation at least initially? I'm referring to income already earned, saved, and taxed. If saved income has already been taxed, then it will get taxed again on sales?

posted by Chris99 on Mar 09, 2008 at 12:49:49 am     #

If saved income has already been taxed, then it will get taxed again on sales?

Yes, Chris, it will. That is one of the complaints, especially from retirees. There is no good answer for it - it is a transitional issue.

One of the key things about the FairTax is the government not knowing who is paying taxes or what their income or wealth is (the bill requires the dissolution of the IRS and the repeal of the 16th ammendment). The purpose of this is to shield individuals from government politics. So as soon as you make an exception for a transitionary issue like this (like having some kind of filing that details your pre-reform assets) - the government has to know about your money and, at that point, you have already let the genie out of the bottle again.

So, yes, existing savings is a tough issue. But again, only transitionary.

posted by babbleman on Mar 09, 2008 at 01:03:18 am     #

Oh, also - I am not 100% sure of this, but about 95% sure that tax deferred savings like IRAs and 401Ks do not get taxed. In other words, access to those funds is realeased. So that certainly reduces the problem.

Also, capital gains taxes are eliminated too. So to the extent that your savings are in assets that had gains, the gains are not taxed.

posted by babbleman on Mar 09, 2008 at 01:10:49 am     #

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