New TPS head wants...wait for it...a levy! Surprise!

I started to type a response and then went back and read Maggie's - nothing more could be added. Awesome blog Maggie!

Wow it's like Maggie read my mind, the only thing she didn't say was any increase in money would be sucked up by all the raises they would give each other. More money doesn't mean more education, just higher paychecks and less spent on the children. Maybe they can buy some more shoddily built shacks that need new roofs inside 10 years to replace buildings that have stood for 30+ years. Because you know even though kids can learn sitting on a dirt floor sharing faded torn books teachers should have the very best teaching aids irregardless of cost. All we need now is to find more equipment bought and paid for but never delivered with a nice kick back to the person buying it all.

They already account for 2/3rds of my property taxes, yet the yearly measurements of their academic performance are totally dismal. There's only one rational choice here: Stop giving them money.

"We can't afford to lose anymore staff," Ms. Hill said." --- yeah, 'cause they're all doing such a great job...genius

Education is expensive and time consuming.

Imagine the effort and expense required to un-enroll and re-enroll all the dumb kids depending on whether it is a state test day or a reimbursement count day.

Amazing how the public sector never, ever considers doing more with what they have let alone doing more with less.

My sister-in-law is a grade school teacher in Monroe and her horror stories are...well...horrifying.

Teachers themselves are a great group. Their unions don't always represent them as much as their own agenda, which is usually political and often only tangentially associated with the needs of their members.

But this isn't about the teachers - this is about the elected school board member who is now president who thinks one group can't be asked to give anymore (teachers) so another group (taxpayers) must - give more that is. Talk about warped thinking, a failure of common sense and a complete disconnect from reality.

Sadly, I had hoped that the performance audit the board unanimously supported would be something of benefit to the district and the taxpayers. But if Brenda Hill is already talking about a new levy, she has obviously has no intention of taking any money-saving recommendations seriously ... and then she proved it by saying she didn't expect the district would make any operational changes to gain our support for her new levy.

There are only two things we can do:

1) oppose their levies again and again and again. It's a never-ending war and we have to fight each attempt with equal vigor. And we can't be swayed by the emotional - and false - appeal of 'for the children.'

2) elect people of a different philosophy (regardless of party) to the school board.

Does anyone think we have any hope of being successful with either option?

"Does anyone think we have any hope of being successful with either option?"

In Lucas County, Ohio? Where the likes of Phil Copeland is elected for a position he isn't the least bit qualified for? For no reason OTHER than his party affiliation?

Nope. Won't happen.

From MaggieThurber: There are only two things we can do:

1) oppose their levies again and again and again. It's a never-ending war and we have to fight each attempt with equal vigor. And we can't be swayed by the emotional - and false - appeal of 'for the children.'

You could begin by eliminating the word 'fight'. Fight for this, fight for that, blah blah blah blah. Politicians spend so much time bloviating about what they're fighting for that they've forgotten how to work.

Defeating the school levy is going to take work. Those that are opposed to putting out a fire by dumping money on it are going to have to work at defeating the levy every single day, even if it's just a few minutes. Work entails arming yourself with facts and presenting your message every single time the topic comes up in conversation. Harass your elected official on a real regular basis, reminding the official that their job is to represent everyone; not just the people who belong to the teacher's union or who have kids in school or who do not own property (and hence do not have to pay anything by way of a tax increase).

This levy will pass due to the apathy of the hoi polloi, and ironically due to the ignorance of the voting public.

2) elect people of a different philosophy (regardless of party) to the school board.

Truth. This is one issue that might serve to isolate the main stream Democrats and Republicans from the Moonbats and Wingnuts. How is that a bad thing?

Does anyone think we have any hope of being successful with either option?

I certainly believe it can be done. I'll never forget one Sylvania school levy that went down like the Hindenburg due to the hard work of a handful of people who mailed all the Sylvania residents a very well-written multiple page report on the school budget and where our money was going. I think that levy was defeated about 90 to 1. I note that it didn't stop the Sylvania BOE from holding another special election or two until they got more of our hard earned money. Bastards.

I believe that organization will be a key ingredient with this. The BOE is already organized, as is the teacher's union. The voters are not, and there isn't much hope of organizing all of them or even a majority. Someone might, might organize enough people to mount an effective resistance.

Give the teachers and administrations more support and authority when dealing with these troubled children. If they don't want to be there, let them go, when mom or grandma come complaining their little angel shouldn't be kicked out, show them the evidence and just say NO. If they want their kids back in school they can pay for private schools or charter schools, or modify their childs attitude before going back to public school.

With all that being said, teachers should be responsible for teaching not holding hands or wiping butts. Its not up to teachers to teach morality or social skills. When you take away the teachers authority to punish/kick out students you remove any respect those students had for them.

Pretty soon you will see cameras in the classrooms to document the behavior issues of these little "angels"

We could only hope, but that will never happen if the teacher's union has anything to say about it. The school teachers will be recorded as well as the students.

Of course, given some student behavior the Great Unwashed might be a little more inclined to sympathize with the teachers - once they hear the third 'Fuck you!' in ten minutes of class.

The ills of the TPS district are many. And I am grateful I do not live in that district. I do live in Toledo though.

How can the city and community grow with a failing public school system baffles me. Schools were the first thing I looked at when buying my first home 50 plus years ago. How many people are we losing to the burbs because they have a viable school system?

Something has to be accomplished to fix the school problems ASAP. What? I do not know. But it surely should be on the top of the list of things needing improvement now.

How many people are we losing to the burbs because they have a viable school system?

The abacus does not have that many beads.

"How many people are we losing to the burbs because they have a viable school system?"

This is a Catch 22. Why do the burbs have more viable school systems? The heart of the problem is Ohio's system of school funding. TPS and other poor districts have no choice but to go to the voters time and again because of their eroding property tax bases. Well-to-do homeowners flee the city for whatever reasons and take their higher incomes and tax dollars with them. Until we stop relying on property taxes for a huge chunk of school funding nothing is going to change. The Ohio Supreme Court declared our system of school funding unconstitutional umpteen years ago, yet the legislature has failed to act. Why? Voting down school levies is myopic and idiotic. Kicking a dead horse isn't going to solve anything.

Kicking a dead horse forces the issue I would say.

Hit post too soon, Shortysmom,what your proposing sounds like throwing good money after bad. If its broken and you keep funding it the way it is, its never going to change.

Voting down school levies is myopic and idiotic.

This is statement is what is myopic and idiotic.

This town has a long history of voting for levy after levy after levy. We have sat by and watched the money be soaked up by generous raises for teachers and admin...plus, funded brand new f@#king schools for TPS. Children--eh, fuck them.

The voters have been very generous considering the awful raw performance data that comes out of TPS--not to mention the utter scandals too (manipulation of attendance data, for example). There is utterly NO TRUST in TPS to spend any additional money wisely or transparently. Until that is built again, expect more flaming disasters.

And that has nothing to do with tax system funding. Sales tax, death tax, wealth tax, vice tax, wax tax, tacks tax, carpet tacks, special assessment--you put any of your "expected from the new system" funding into the financial black hole that is TPS, you will still have the same piss poor results. And TPS will still cry "poor" as usual. And you will be on this board bitching about the myopic who refuse to raise the sales tax another .50 to fund TPS.

It never ends. It's never enough.

Forgive the extra "is" in the first sentence. Should have "previewed" before posting.

Why do all of you people live in TPS district when the school system is failing our children? That is a question I do not understand.

Schools and education are very important in our family and I was willing to have less house and better schools when I purchased a home. Nearly 55 years ago I gave up sidewalks, paved streets, a driveway and a lot less house for a good school system. I would do the same again in a New York minute.

Great argument for sending your children to private school and keeping them out of TPS. Good point Jackie.

From Jackie: How can the city and community grow with a failing public school system baffles me.

Who says the city is growing? The population went from 332,848 in 1990 to 286,038 in 2011 a drop of 46,810.

From Shorty'sMom: The Ohio Supreme Court declared our system of school funding unconstitutional umpteen years ago, yet the legislature has failed to act. Why?

Maggie Thurber could answer that one better than I, but finishing in second place is not going to slow me down.

The short answers are:
Reelection. Screwing around with a system that employs a whole lot of union workers who vote the way the union tells them to is a good way to start packing up your nice, cushy office. One hand washes the senator, the other hand provides a happy ending. You figure out which hand is which.
Priorities. Or more bluntly, because no one is forcing them to do so. So the Ohio Supreme Court voted. So what? How many legislators went to jail for ignoring the dictates of the OSSC? None. If the Court in all its majesty wanted the situation changed, I suppose they might hold the legislators in contempt of court.

From Shorty'sMom: Voting down school levies is myopic and idiotic. Kicking a dead horse isn't going to solve anything.

That horse ain't dead, Virginia. He just won't hunt.

Look. Suppose your car broke down and suppose you take it to the local mega-chain car repair franchise to get it fixed. You pay your bill, you get your car back but it breaks down again. So you take it back, and you spend more money fixing it. New parts, different problems, this thing, that thing, every other thing goes wrong. It keeps breaking down, you keep spending money to fix it.

Your neighbor doesn't have this problem, but then he takes his car to some real expensive place. His car always starts right up, and on the rare occasion it didn't start right up the real expensive place got seventeen mechanics, three factory representatives and an engineer on the job and the car got fixed. It runs. It's a happy car. So's the owner.

So you'd like to take your car to the real expensive place and get it fixed, but it seems that there's a new law that says you can't do that without paying a bunch of money to the old place (called a fairness tax), and since you can't afford that you'll just have to live with it.

Just how long are you going to keep this up until you finally go right around the bend into Crazy Town and the local SWAT team has to dig you out of a bell tower? Anonymous_Coward and the anti-freedom crew will be thrilled to death, so I guess there's some good in everything.

Getting back to children and education, check the situation in Memphis, TN. The school system had money but was failing. Anyone living in Memphis who had a job, any job, caught the first thing smoking and bailed into the suburbs. This was called the Great White Flight. Now there's no tax bread (since the white bread left) and the school system went from bad to worse to so bad the commercial news media won't cover it. The school board abdicated.

A few people have been beating on a drum and demanding the school system educate their little darlings, and the results have been less than completely spectacular. But the school system wants more money. Maybe this time the voters will finally take a stand and just say no.

My congratulations and admiration go to Jackie for making a wise, informed decision 55 years ago. We need more people like you in this society.

Reelection. Screwing around with a system that employs a whole lot of union workers who vote the way the union tells them to is a good way to start packing up your nice, cushy office. One hand washes the senator, the other hand provides a happy ending. You figure out which hand is which.

Jack - that would only make sense if it were Democrats standing in the way of reforming the school funding mess. But since the state funding model was declared unconstitutional, the Republicans have held both chambers of the Ohio General Assembly - and by quite a comfortable margin I might add. I really don't think that their collective lack of urgency on this had anything to do with keeping unions happy. I wonder, then, who was kept happy by this? Hint: see how many charter schools have sprung up in Ohio since then. Big money in diverting public dollars to private education companies. Keeping unions happy? C'mon Jack.

shortysmom said: TPS and other poor districts have no choice but to go to the voters time and again because of their eroding property tax bases.

Uh, what? The TPS has been consistently one of the most expensive districts in Ohio, per capita for the children inside it. TPS is by no means a "poor" district. Not at all. The district budget in fact exceeds the Toledo City budget (or it did when last I looked).

The TPS goes back to the voters again and again because it is greedy; it's filled with expensive and ineffectual labor. Yes, I'm talking about UNIONS.

For what the TPS 'achieves' it makes more sense to fire all of the administrators and most of the teachers, replacing them with babysitting security guards who instruct the children to just sit and read for their shift. Heck, performance would probably improve, and a $12/hr security guard is a lot better to achieve this economically than a unionized assbutt we call a 'teacher' merely for historical reasons, who gets $48K average pay for only 8 months of work plus gold-plated benefits and a pension.

Maddie said: Who says the city is growing?

Well, ideology says it must grow, just like it says the assessed value of your house has to go up every year, your salary must go up every year, etc. Some have called this the Cult of Growth. And it is a cult. It's pushed by bankers and politicians and to some extent businessmen, who need the public to believe socio-economic growth is infinite. That's how they get rich, and either stay rich or get richer.

As you've pointed out to Jackie, it's just not happening around here anymore. Toledo is in a contraction. This is a permanent decline, which means it will persist as a trend for the entire lifetimes of the people reading this blog. Detroit is our model. That's where Toledo has to go, and were lagging behind "De-toilet" quite a bit. But don't worry, eh? We'll get there. The future's going to arrive regardless of what the Jackies of the world have to say about it.

shortysmom said: Why do the burbs have more viable school systems?

What, something wrong with your memory? Jack Ford said it for all of us: Because they're Whiter. Those districts have simply avoided the huge socio-economic costs of an unruly population. It's amazing how much better everything runs when people sit down and shut up and do what they're supposed to do.

Remember, Jack Ford said it, so it can't possibly be called a racist statement. LOL!

TPS isn't going to get much better until the parents get more involved in raising their own kids. Tossing more money at them isn't going to help.

As an aside, this is what happens every time I try to read a GuestZero post...

"Jack - that would only make sense if it were Democrats standing in the way of reforming the school funding mess. But since the state funding model was declared unconstitutional, the Republicans have held both chambers of the Ohio General Assembly - and by quite a comfortable margin I might add. I really don't think that their collective lack of urgency on this had anything to do with keeping unions happy. I wonder, then, who was kept happy by this? Hint: see how many charter schools have sprung up in Ohio since then. Big money in diverting public dollars to private education companies. Keeping unions happy? C'mon Jack."

Progress, this is exactly the reason I asked why the legislature has failed to act. I wanted to see if anyone knew what was really going on with the issue of school funding. Companies like White Hat Management are making huge bucks, lining Republican pockets, and failing to educate kids and their parents. The Republican-controlled legislature intends to see that these profiteers keep getting away with it. They're slowly turning education into another money-making enterprise and the big losers are kids and their parents who've been duped into thinking quality education is the motive.

Brenda Hill's resume:
http://www.toledonewsnow.com/Global/link.asp?L=398317

Can you imagine the opportunities that would open up to her in the school system if her resume had read "2004 worked on campaign to support George Bush" instead of the multiple line items where she worked with the Federation of Teachers to support Democratic candidates?

Brenda Hill sure makes no bones about her politics, especially when she, as a job candidate, highlights her political preferences on her resume. That's a serious point - you see even in the application process the applicant finds it necessary to state her loyalty.

You can't ignore that when we talk about "seriously" flawed and corrupt institutions that NO longer serve the public good but actually rape the public we almost always see a certain commonality.

From Progress22: Jack - that would only make sense if it were Democrats standing in the way of reforming the school funding mess. But since the state funding model was declared unconstitutional, the Republicans have held both chambers of the Ohio General Assembly

Not so. In 2009 - 2010 the Democrats controlled State House, and in 2007 - 2009 Ohio had a Democrat governor. Ohio has had Moonbats in the belfry for years, and I haven't heard much from any of them about the constitutionality of school funding.

Granted that the Wingnuts are hosting the game, but I don't see the Moonbats doing anything either.

This has been going on since DeRolph v. State, March 24, 1997 and the government hasn't made any real effort to correct the situation. My own opinion is that I'd like to see the property tax levies removed and buried, but I really don't see that happening anytime soon.

From Toledolen: TPS isn't going to get much better until the parents get more involved in raising their own kids.

Well toledolen, that's not going to happen so you might just as well put the notion right out of your head.

As an aside, this is what happens every time I try to read a GuestZero post...

I suggest you try a non-partisan remedial reading course.

shortysmom said: "The Republican-controlled legislature intends to see that these profiteers keep getting away with it. They're slowly turning education into another money-making enterprise and the big losers are kids and their parents who've been duped into thinking quality education is the motive."

How interesting that you find rightwing profiteers in the system, and yet see nothing of the leftwing ones: The unionized administrators and teachers. The unions are a money-making enterprise who are also using the education system.

Care to explain this particular blindness of yours?

Maddie said: "Well toledolen, that's not going to happen so you might just as well put the notion right out of your head."

Yes, I agree. I don't know why people find that sort of thing so hard to understand. You can't force parents to do anything, outside of submitting to the education system to begin with (per Ohio's constitution). We have liberty as a people, so what people are really hinting at here, is Fascism as a solution. Fat chance.

The reality these blame-the-parents types are avoiding is that we can't control the parents, since they are a free people. But we can control the teachers and administrators, who are our hired employees. That leads directly to a condemnation of the unions. This is the heart of the war going on in Toledo.

GZ, why is it you jump in and rant on every thread that mentions unions? Regardless of the topic, unions are always to blame. It's obvious you have no real interest in education, and I'm not interested in a conversation with with people who suffer from tunnel vision.

Teachers in our entire area belong to the same teachers union. So I fail to see where it is the unions fault that TPS is a failing school district. There is a shared responsibility for both success and failure at the school level. That includes educators, students, parents and community working together to see that our public schools thrive.

So, shortysmom, what I'm hearing is that you don't care to explain that particular blindness of yours. Right?

Totally not the unions fault. Shared blame and all that.

Meanwhile, today's 12th grader was in the fourth grade when Fran Lawrence and the teachers taught them the expression "work to the rule."

Not that this is the end result 8 years down the line or anything...

Michael Miller, a writer that I do not always enjoy, offered something relevant and thoughtful back then.

http://www.toledofreepress.com/2005/05/25/teaching-standards-buffeted-by-hot-air/

Let’s see… _“We were unable to perform the job that you paid us to perform in the past and you will not pay us more to continue to do an incomplete job. Therefore we will do less.” _

I would be more sensitive if I ever heard *_any _*comments that admitted some accountability and took some responsibility for a system that is being paid to fail. But no, the one thing you can expect is the perpetual “Finger point.” It is the one sure thing that you can expect “It’s not our fault we can’t compete the job we are paid to complete.” – and they wonder why citizens are asking for changes. Shorty’s Mom – Are Unions _*ever *_responsible for…. anything? Seriously? If the tax payers paid them more they would hire more teacher, take more personal time and fudge the numbers better and nothing would change. The public knows this.

Trust me, I think poor parenting is largely a factor but I think that TPS is largely to blame as well for a failing system. Does anyone honestly believe that if there is any type of improvement the same people who finger point when times are bad will not step right up and take credit for any gain. If you can’t accept responsibility for the bad – you can’t be responsible for the good either!

I have to admit that much of what has been said here frustrates me because I have a little more knowledge about TPS and the TFT than the average Joe. I'll probably be sorry about revealing my identity, but if I can help set the record straight in any way or answer some questions you have, it might be worth it.

Dal Lawrence, the TFT president for 30 years (1966-1996), is my father and I worked for the TFT for 35 years. It started out as a part-time job when I was in college...no, the job wasn't created for me, there was a secretarial job open...and it was never intended to be a lifetime gig, but sometimes our lives take an unintended path. Anyway, if any of you have questions you'd like to ask me, I'll do my best to answer them - always truthfully - so fire at will.

I have no problem with nepotism. It has been going on for a long time. Public trusts become family businesses all the time. Doesn't mean there is a problem. Sometimes families have the same passion.

My concern has always been with peer review and whether it increases or decreases teacher accountability. Is "peer review" still in place?

I know some TPS teachers very well. Long time teachers. And they hate it. They hate their principals. They hate green sheets. They hate the students. They hate the parents. They hate that special ed kids (who are not very special) are going to be mainstreamed next year. They want other jobs. Many are trapped in education, and some are nearing retirement.
When you feel like you are in a foxhole, are you really going to tell on your colleague for giving up and showing movies all day and simply giving zeros and sending them to the office?
In a perfect world, peer review would be a fair and reasonable tool. I have doubts that it is effective in today's challenging teaching environment.
I think that teaching has become the hardest job in the world. But I think that the union serves the teachers, not the students.

I think that the legacy of "work to the rule" combined with apathetic and adversarial parents, create an atmosphere were too often, kids look around and see that nobody else gives a dam, why should they? (And the is in the non-ghetto schools)

I know some TPS teachers very well. Long time teachers. And they hate it. They hate their principals. They hate green sheets. They hate the students. They hate the parents. They hate that special ed kids (who are not very special) are going to be mainstreamed next year. They want other jobs.

Wow, your friends seem like real miserable SOBs. I guess the real issue I see with the union is that they don’t allow the school district to fire your friends as they clearly have no place teaching. Every teacher I know, while they have their days, is hard working; love the kids and love what they do.

But I think that the union serves the teachers, not the students.

Yes, the TEACHERS UNION serves the teachers, crazy I know. A little secret – the police union serves the police officers and the electrical union serves the electricians…

Aren’t the teachers of Perrysburg, Sylvania and Ottawa Hills in the same union as those in TPS? Maybe TPS’s problems don’t come from the union…

I'll probably be sorry about revealing my identity,...

Big mistake.

Although your posts are not nearly as inflammatory as, say, Anonymous_Coward, you're a decent distance from Ms. Popularity of 2013.

You probably won't get credible death threats like History_Mike, but were I you I'd brace myself for a certain amount of harassment, either now or in the distant future.

Other people and bots may disagree with me. Please read the Standard Disclaimer. This product is meant for educational purposes only.

Every teacher I know, while they have their days, is hard working; love the kids and love what they do.

All three of them? I find that incredible! Just incredible.

I didn't say that they were my friends.
I said that they are people that I know very well.
You supplied the rest. I find that people often read much more into what has actually been typed than what is there. Especially if it allows them the opportunity to be snarky.

But yes, they seem miserable as the day is long. I wish that the union would allow all of the bad teachers to be fired, but I fear that there are not enough subs.

I bet justread knows a black person, too, so he can't be racist.

Thank you, shortsmom, for finally explaining your particular blindness. It was decent of you to explain the deep conflict of interest that exists in you in this topic.

And sometimes people just create an opportunity to be snarky out of thin air.

If you can't attack the post, attack the poster.

Yes shortsmom since you have a clue as to what's going on and could possible add intelligent insight into this conversation, you must to ridiculed and belittled.

As she called the action of anyone who disagreed with her...oh wait, I'll pull the quote...

Voting down school levies is myopic and idiotic.

...SM does not have the high ground on comments that ridicule and belittle.

shortysmom

I admire your openness and honesty about your background.

I too come from a family of educators from teachers, principals, superintendent of schools and on staff at TU. My mother worked in the cafeteria and my mother-in-law was Administrative Assistant to the superintendent of schools decades ago. My one sibling has won many awards for textbooks and tests and was Educator of the Year at TU a few years back.

Teachers, I believe, are not the problem. The problems is much deeper and goes back decades. We need new blood on the Board of Education and someone who understands what a school is supposed to do. Educate children!

All that being said I would not live in the TPS district for all the tea in China. I value education and wanted the best for my children and grandchildren. And that goes for all the children out there now being short changed by a system wrought with ills.

I was provided the opportunity based on a ridiculous anecdotal generalization. I didn't have to create anything.

You know, considering who jackie has presented herself as on this board and her comments within this thread, the message conveyed is rather startling.

In other threads, she has quite vocally supported more tax money for all kinds of projects to support the community. She has stated often (paraphrasing) "I want to leave a better community for my children and grandchildren." These are not the words of an anti-tax zealot.

However, she has now posted several times saying that she wouldn't go near TPS, either back in the day or now:

jackie: Nearly 55 years ago I gave up sidewalks, paved streets, a driveway and a lot less house for a good school system. I would do the same again in a New York minute.

Now...if this type of person isn't a glaring red flashing light to TPS that says "you're doing it wrong", I don't know how else the message will ever get through.

^and she says TU instead of UT...totally unacceptable

SensorG, intelligent insight implies sight, and I pointed out quite clearly the blindness in shortysmom's posting.

So perhaps what you wrote was a typo, and you instead meant to say intelligent nosight. I'm glad to help you in this matter.

The peer review program, better known as the Intern Program, still exists in TPS. Since its inception in the fall of 1981 it has successfully rid the district of hundreds of first-year teachers who failed to meet its standards for classroom performance. Long-time teachers whose performance deteriorated over the years, or should never have been in the classroom to begin with have been fired through the "intervention" component of the program. The widely held belief that tenured teachers can't be fired for incompetence is wrong. The TPS intern program was conceived by my father in the 1970s when he came to the conclusion that colleges of education were not adequately preparing students for the rigors of the classroom, and he fought the TPS administration for several years before finally winning institution of the program during contract negotiations. It was the first peer review program in education in the U.S. The principals' union blew a gasket over losing control of teacher evaluation, and the president of the American Federation of Teachers summoned my father to Washington to explain why one of its affiliates was involving its members in the heresy of participating in the firing of its own members. The program became so successful that it has been replicated in public school districts all over the U.S. and became a symbol of excellence in education for the AFT. The program's success, accolades and awards have received little attention locally over the years primarily because of the Blade's decades-long hatred of my father.

It can't be said that teachers are shy about sending their colleagues to the program. Although the intern component is mandatory for first-year teachers, veteran teachers with problems must be referred through a joint recommendation of the individual school's union committee and principal. TFT has regularly surveyed and polled its members over the years before conract proposals are developed. When asked how TFT has best served their interests, the intern-intervention program is cited by a wide margin. Teachers have come to the understanding that no one has a vested interest in teaching next door to an incompetent colleague.

MJ, since you've informed me that I'm already a long way from being "Ms. Popularity of 2013" I guess revealing my identity doesn't matter that much after all. Thanks for the heads-up.

GZ, I don't have any "particular blindness" on the topic. My aim is to try to separate fact from fiction through personal knowledge. If you have any questions about the teachers' union I'd be glad to answer them.

Folks, I went to Toledo University, a municipal college within the limits of the city of Toledo.

Peer review to me sounds like do it our way or hit the highway, including phrases such as your are making the rest of us look bad if you continue to outperform us, slow down you get paid the same way regardless. I get paid by the hour not the pound, its all good no one expects miracles.

No comment on "Work to the rule?"

(I know, I'm a racist.)

Thank you, shortysmom!

Peer review has been implemented all over the US, and is widely called "The Toledo Plan." My sister, a master teacher in Columbus Public Schools until her retirement a few years ago, loved the plan and said it did wonderful things for teachers there.

Teaching is a tough profession, and its not getting any easier.

Earlier this week, my husband, who is a sub, was subpoenaed to be a witness against a kid who tried to throw a chair at him and who threatened to come back and blow up the school.

There was no parent with the kid at the courthouse, by the way.

The teachers earn their money. Are there a few who are skating through? Sure, just as there are in any workplace. But the vast majority are in the trenches, doing their best to educate kids.

Earlier this week, my husband, who is a sub, was subpoenaed to be a witness against a kid who tried to throw a chair at him and who threatened to come back and blow up the school.

How does more money for TPS, in the form of a levy, solve this problem?

There was no parent with the kid at the courthouse, by the way.

How does more money for TPS, in the form of a levy, solve this problem?

Uh oh... anecdotal generalization alert.

Uh oh... anecdotal generalization alert.

Isn’t that what you were doing by telling the story about the miserable SOBs that you know really well but aren’t your friends?

Yeah. That's when I learned what an incredibly offensive thing it was to do.

I think the answer at schools where is little parental involvement is to follow the model Kids Unlimited Academy is doing and have an after school tutoring and homework session as part of the school day so that when kids leave school at 5:30 for the day, they don't have to worry about homework anymore.

http://kidsunlimitedacademy.org/

"Work to the Rule" was first used many years ago when administrators at the Board tried to force already overloaded teachers to perform additional duties without available time and without compensation. Work to the Rule simply meant that teachers still honored their contractual obligations but stopped providing voluntary, uncompensated assistance to the district. The Board realized what a mess it would be in without the hours of voluntary service already provided by teachers. Teachers don't have time for things like monitoring bus loading, and playing cop in the cafeteria and on the playground.

LC, people DO expect miracles from teachers. Teacher bashing is popular sport these days, and the postings on this board supply ample evidence to back that up. Why shouldn't teachers police their own ranks through peer review? Doctors and attorneys have done it for years. Would you prefer an incompetent doctor over a qualified one? The teaching profession shouldn't be treated any differently.

Annie, thank you for the kind remarks. My dad helped John Grossman, who was president of the Columbus Education Association at the time, set up the program in Columbus. Although Columbus is an NEA affiliate and Toledo is AFT, he and John became close friends and remained so until John's untimely passing a few years ago.

Jackie, some of us can't seem to catch a break because of our age. I went to "TU" too.

Wow wonder how the teachers I had growing up ever managed because they did munch room monitoring, school bus loading, among other things yet they got things done. So now teachers are equivilent to doctors and attorneys? So when a teacher screws up the kids go to jail or die? Maybe teachers should have as tough of a penalty for their mistakes, like disbarment or extremely excessive malpractice insurance? I like teachers, I respect most teachers, I think they have a hard job, but THEY chose that profession, some of that stuff comes with the job. As usual I see people that want all the perks and none of the responsibilities whether traditional or perceived. With unions negotiating less and less responsibilities and more and more perks over time.

and prior to going to TU, your grade school classroom headcount was 50+ students, the teacher could smack your ass with an actual paddle without going to jail, and somehow you managed to escape the need for psychological counseling & make it through high school, and then complete a college degree…no way, really?

I usually do not comment on the TPS district because I have no first hand knowledge of the system. My husband did graduate from Scott back in 1949 but that was in another time warp. It was one of the elite high schools back then.

I have never voted against a school levy. Some I have abstained from voting. I also look at the big picture when it comes to community activities. I think metro parks, libraries, mental health services, COSI, TARTA etc. add to the value of our community. And the small amount they cost in the big scheme of things is trivial.

Education has always been a big thing in our family. My father was pulled out of school the day he turned 16 to help feed his family of 11. He was proud that he managed to keep the rest of his 8 siblings in school till graduation. He sacrificed so others could succeed. My mom, an immigrant. told us that taxes were the price you paid to live in "this marvelous country". So guess I was brain washed at an early age and still use my parents as markers for how I want to live.

But I still would not live in the TPS district because of their school system but not because the teachers aren't committed. It probably is more a rural vs urban setting than anything. Good schools mean you have a chance to succeed. My daughters did that in spades and I am quite proud of them.

shortysmom said: GZ, I don't have any "particular blindness" on the topic.

Of course you do. I said:

How interesting that you find rightwing profiteers in the system, and yet see nothing of the leftwing ones: The unionized administrators and teachers. The unions are a money-making enterprise who are also using the education system.

You refuse to condemn the left wingers for being exactly as profiteering in education as the right wingers. That's bias. That's blindness. Can't be any clearer. Uhm, is English not your first language or something?

Annieski said: The teachers earn their money.

No, they don't, because the horrible education metrics of the TPS say they don't.

LC, your last post frames perfectly one the greatest sources of teacher frustration - lack of respect. It's a huge issue. You suggest that teachers don't deserve to be viewed with the same high regard as doctors or lawyers because kids don't die or go to jail if they fail as students. Not necessarily. Lots of kids wind up in jail or dead when their parents don't teach them the value of an education or respect for those who try to provide it. Next to parents, teachers are the most significant adults in childrens' lives. Kids who are the most dangerous and violent become that way (unless there's mental illness involved) as a result of the parenting (or lack of) they get at home. In milder form, people such as yourself who devalue teachers and the work they do because they're nothing more than "hired hands" who don't deserve our respect indirectly send the message that education isn't important. Unfortunately, this attitude is picked up by too many kids. Is that the idea you want to plant in your kid's head? Most people don't realize how incredibly perceptive children are. They pick up on these attitudes whether or not parents verbalize them.

Teachers don't have respect, but they do have liability insurance. One million dollars to be exact if you teach in an AFT-affiliated district like TPS. The union pays $1 a month to the AFT for every member for the coverage. A teacher can't put a comforting arm around a first grader nowadays without fear that some nutty parent will run screaming to the administration that his or her kid has been sexually assaulted by the teacher.

Suppose you work in a factory and your boss says you have to come over on Saturday and help him paint his house or he'll fire you. Do you shrug your shoulders and say, "Oh, well, it goes with the job. There's nothing I can do about it." Then the house painting turns into a roofing job, and by the way, when you're finished my lawn needs mowing, too. Where do you draw the line in the sand? Do you draw a line, or do you lie down in the dirt and die?

TPS has squandered so many billions, debating their next levy request is a waste of time.

Vote NO. Each and every time TPS has any money requests on the ballot.

No and I wouldn't expect a teacher to paint my house either, besides the fact they would probably be lousy at it, it has absolutely nothing to do with their work enviroment. I imagine once they have a teacher per student they might be happy.

You can't sell teachers short as painters. They have to do SOMETHING all summer.

I enjoyed factory worker who has to paint a house on saturday, roof the house and mow the lawn equals a teacher staying a half hour "late" after 3pm to help a kid who is struggling or make sure that they get on the bus safely.

Better analogy would be the bag boy doesn't carry your groceries to the car anymore. He's union.

If teachers want respect then they need to keep their opinions out of the classroom. When my grandson's teacher wore a badge to repeal SB5, I was stuck on how to tell him that his teacher was wrong. She should not have put me in that position.

Other than my parents my elementary teachers had the biggest influence on my life.

I could read when I went to first grade and the Whitmer library was in the basement of my elementary school. Those books opened up a whole new world to me. I learned about life outside of the small area where I lived. There were lakes, mountains, valleys and hills in this country. I then traveled to Europe via books and I loved it. My elementary principal taught geography and government to us students and I learned about each state and how our government worked. There was a big world out there and I wanted to explore it all.

That of course didn't happen as real life intervened. But without teachers to guide me I would never have known about the world. Teachers take a bad rap most of the time here. I cannot believe I had the only good teachers that inspired students.

Exactly.

6th_floor got it dead center. It's pointless to argue. People who want yet another school levy to pass are so fucking stupid that discussing school levies is really and truly a complete waste of time and energy. Just vote the bloody thing down and keep voting it down.

Oh...oh...oh....time to shuffle the chairs, kids!

Jerome Pecko out.

13ABC: TPS Superintendent Won't Return After Contract Ends

<oldhometown now provides Baby Elephant Walk as appropriate theme music...>

Lets see, they will spend around 35K+ in searches for a new one, offer him 400k+ as a salary. Isn't there anyone in TPS qualified to take the job for say 125k???
What is that job really worth for a salary?

If the CEO of a major corporation makes on average $10 million per year + bennies.

A senior IT or finacial person at one of those companies make around $80k-$120K per year.

Paying a superintendent $400k at a good size school system seems about right.

CEOs and financial people are evaluated by results.

Perhaps one day, TPS will be too.

CEOs and financial people are evaluated by results.

If that were only true...

Mr. Pecko, 66, was hired in July, 2010, to replace John Foley. He was given a three-year contract that was to pay him $175,000 annually.

Ahh, I didn't know what the salary was for that, that's not too bad, as far as CEO's of major corporations, I don't think they deserve their salaries, those are crazy figures and not sure how any company can turn profits with such a financial drain starting at the top.

Yes, Virginia... we are expected to actually _achieve _ or exceed budgeted P and L out here in the real world.

$175,000 seems high, much less $400,000. Should we be sad about this? What has Pecko done on his watch?

If Pecko was compensated under a "pay for performance" model, he'd be owing us money by now. We have a number of grade schools that have performed so miserably that one would have suspected that the NCLB Act would have shut them down by now.

I don't know why there's this sudden push to get him out, since he should have left before now due to the clear lack of performance, but I suspect it's political theater to con the voters into passing a levy. As usual.

Are the schools doing poorly - or are the students not giving a fuck and the grades and problems are more reflective of the home setting and inner city culture?

GZ, here is another fact I'll throw out for you to ignore:

Administrators are management. They are not in the union.

OhioKimono

I have no first hand knowledge about TPS but I would expect that most problems begin in the home. If your home situation is so bad that no one cares about the necessities of life, much less education, you are most certainly doomed to failure. I cannot see how teachers can teach those who do not care about education.

It is a very sad situation and I wish someone could come up with a magic answer for this problem. The few who do make it out of this situation are kids we should encourage to "pass it on".

My next door neighbor, a single parent, coaches football and baseball at Robinson and has for years. He brings his team home to have picnics and swim in his pool. He tries to set an example for "his" kids. I admire him very much.

O.K., the distinction can't be made since teachers and administrators are all highly educated or trained, and accredited professionals. They never miss pointing those out when it comes time to cut their wages, benefits and pensions due to systemic or economic despondency. And yet, when it comes to measuring their performance by their work product, they totally dodge responsibility. If they are unable to teach reluctant children, then they really aren't educators at all.

So that's untenable. If they are unable to do the job by blaming the students as being unable to be controlled due to social factors (equally uncontrollable), then we can find far cheaper babysitters for these classrooms. Say, each classroom has an armed guard put in place for $12/hr, minimal benefits and no pensions. We'd get pretty much the same results, but cheaper. That's better for the real customer here: The taxpayer.

Sohio said: Administrators are management. They are not in the union.

So? Clearly they inhabit a system where the rising tide lifts all their boats, at the needless expense of the taxpayers.

The administrators are ripping off we taxpayers. So are the teachers. Peas in a pod.

Actually, that is a pretty piss-poor analogy.

The only two stores I know of around here that are still union are Meijer and Kroger. Neither employs bag boys anymore, because their exorbitant minimum wages were cutting into the profit margin. Cheaper to let you carry your own bags to the car...and, in fact, check yourself out, while you're at it.

But hey, why let facts get in the way of a little union bashing, am I right?

True, a rising tide does, generally, raise all boats. Ideally, anyway. That, however, does not stop management from sitting across the table from the union come contract time, and try to get them to settle for as little as they can. The fact is, the 'union administrators' you mentioned do not exist.

It's Okay. I don't really expect you to understand how that system works.

GZ, here is another fact I'll throw out for you to ignore:

Administrators are management. They are not in the union.

posted by Sohio on Jan 31, 2013 at 09:19:43 pm #

**** You are totally wrong (GZ..my Charlton Heston-lookalike friend..you owe me beer for having your back)...the TPS administrators are totally unionized. In fact, they are one of the few administrative groups in education in the country who are unionized. I believe their union is called "TAAP."

TPS has a tough job. However, they could do things like have an independent audit. Also, rebuilding their high schools without redoing the locations was lunacy.

Jackie said: I cannot see how teachers can teach those who do not care about education.

Then I cannot see why we continue to pay them if they can't do the job.

Jackie said: It is a very sad situation and I wish someone could come up with a magic answer for this problem.

We have such an answer, but we encounter barriers erected by Liberals. The answer involves privatization and pay-for-performance. If the school system can't perform due to these claims of social structural failures, then the low performance will be cheaply paid for. If we're going to waste money, then let's waste as little as possible. That used to be called common sense.

Also, in many school districts, there is a "me too" clause, which means that the administrative team gets the same pay raise that teachers do. So..if teachers get a 3% raise, so do administrators.

In my younger, naive days, I asked a union member who negotiated for a local teachers' union this:

Me: So..if teachers and administrators are negotiating a contract, but administrators get the same thing(bennies) that teachers get, what is the incentive for administrators to negotiate a tight contract?

Union Rep: There isn't one.

Me: Holy shit..who is looking out for the taxpayers?

Union Rep: No one.

Me: This seems like a conflict of interest.

Union Rep: Yep.

Me: Why doesn't our local school board say something?

Union Rep (You guys can fill in the blanks! :-) )

Guest Zero...I prefer imports. Most domestic beer is swill IMO.

Sohio said: That, however, does not stop management from sitting across the table from the union come contract time, and try to get them to settle for as little as they can.

Which word in "[t]he administrators are ripping off we taxpayers" proved far too difficult for you to understand?

Administrators in public institutions have uniformly shown the tendency to not care a whit for probity. They get paid regardless, and when the system requires cuts, they just go after the low-hanging fruit, which are more numerous than just themselves.

For this reason among many others, the only real solution to the perversity of public institutions is to keep them as small as possible. Limited government. You might have heard that phrase a time or two.

I stand corrected. You're right...the TAAP. A union separate from the teacher's union, but a union nonetheless. I had forgotten about that.

To help me lick my wound (and salvage my point as best I can), here is a Blade article from about 2 years ago, showing how greedy and inflexible they are:

http://www.toledoblade.com/Education/2011/07/06/Toledo-school-administrators-ratify-union-contract.html

Let it never be said I won't admit when I am wrong...

I stand corrected. You're right...the TAAP. A union separate from the teacher's union, but a union nonetheless. I had forgotten about that.

To help me lick my wound (and salvage my point as best I can), here is a Blade article from about 2 years ago, showing how greedy and inflexible they are:

http://www.toledoblade.com/Education/2011/07/06/Toledo-school-administrators-ratify-union-contract.html

Let it never be said I won't admit when I am wrong...

I stand corrected. You're right...the TAAP. A union separate from the teacher's union, but a union nonetheless. I had forgotten about that.

To help me lick my wound (and salvage my point as best I can), here is a Blade article from about 2 years ago, showing how greedy and inflexible they are:

http://www.toledoblade.com/Education/2011/07/06/Toledo-school-administrators-ratify-union-contract.html

Let it never be said I won't admit when I am wrong...

How the hell did I just get put on the hook for a beer buy? Sounds like a tax to me. LOL!

<end whining>

Hmmm...sorry about the triple post. (?)

"They get paid regardless, and when the system requires cuts, they just go after the low-hanging fruit, which are more numerous than just themselves."

See the Blade article I linked to (three times).

Want to tell me again how those people never take cuts?

"Which word in "[t]he administrators are ripping off we taxpayers" proved far too difficult for you to understand?"

Which word? 'WE.' I don't live in Toledo anymore. What's this 'WE' stuff?

Are TPS Board members paid a salary? Because, where I live, they are not, and they are the final vote on union contracts. So, if anything, those elected officials are the last line between the school employees and the taxpayers and the last line of defense against any unreasonable demands. But, that's just where I'm at...maybe it is different at TPS?

"They get paid regardless, and when the system requires cuts, they just go after the low-hanging fruit, which are more numerous than just themselves."

Totally true...

There are ways to cut money, without impacting education! Remember, its about the kids!

1. Instead of 26 pays, pay all school personnel 1 x month. The "float" and resultant interest saves a considerable amount of money.

2. Outsource as much as possible. Why is TPS (or any school district) employing maintenance staff that cut grass, etc. I have a feeling that Elite Lawn Care can cut all of the lawns in the TPS district (and do a better job) for FAR less than the unionized, pensionized TPS employees do!

3. See off all real estate owned by the Toledo School board that is not DIRECTLY related to student instruction. Why is there a board office? Buildings like this require maintenance! TPS could RENT office space anywhere in the city for a cheap rate and would NOT be on the hook for maintenance.

4. Work with the state of Ohio so that ALL teachers aren the same giant insurance pool. They could get a MUCH better rate than hundreds of schools districts individually negotiating insurance coverages. Economy of scale is Econ 101.

5. Get out of the union due collecting business. TPS has payroll people. Their job (among many others) is to collect and distribute union dues. If the TFT wants a union, let them collect dues from their members. Why are public employees in the due collecting business? If unions are as cool as there leaders claim, surely it will be easy to collect the dues.

6. Have an independent audit to see where waste and duplication can be eliminated.

7. Designate one high school as a 100% vocational school like Penta County. The aid from the state is huge and there is a need in TPS for this.

8. Seek corporate sponsorship for sports. Designate a school an NFL promise school.

9. Seek alumni donations like colleges do.

10. More to come...

Thoughts?

And there is where YOU have it wrong, management and union makes sense in a PRIVATE company, not in a PUBLIC entity. And its not a management vs union when it comes to contract negotiations in a private setting, it is the Company vs Worker. Management represents the company and its stockholders/owners who are the people who invested and own that company. Tell me where the administration or management have any investment in the public entity. If you were to be intellectically honest you would have to say when it comes to PUBLIC sector unions that the taxpayers are the owners of that entity and are never honestly represented when it comes time for negotiations on either side.

As I said, the taxpayers should be represented by elected officials who would be in negotiations with any unions present. If they aren't representing to the satisfaction of the constituents, maybe it's time to clean house...? Furthermore, many public sector unions have contracts which feature a no strike/no lockout clause; meaning the union promises not to strike and the employer (municipality, etc) promises not to lock the workers out, in case of an impasse. This ensures necessary civic services will continue and also generally renders a public sector unions far less powerful than you are giving them credit for being.

Sohio too bad when I see unions and those politicians in bed together, but the only one screwed is the taxpayer.

I should point out that nearly all administrators in TPS are in TAAP, but not all. Cabinet members are not unionized.

So who do the administrators bargain with for contracts?

You can say that again!

From Dappling2: 8. Seek corporate sponsorship for sports. Designate a school an NFL promise school.

8a. Seek corporate sponsorship for academics. Designate one or two schools as a higher education promise school.

8b. Seek corporate sponsorship for vocational training. Designate one or two schools as vocational training schools.

Not that any of this would ever happen, but I think your ideas are sound.

Hmmm...sorry about the triple post. (?)

Yeah, a real three-way. Two bull dykes with strap-ons and a tied down taxpayer in the middle.

^^Oy! Thanks for the visual MJ. Excuse me while I go bleach my brain.

From LineCrosser: And there is where YOU have it wrong, management and union makes sense in a PRIVATE company, not in a PUBLIC entity.

Which sounds to be quite correct, but then you walk into a door in the middle of the night. In short, I don't agree with this point.

From LineCrosser: And its not a management vs union when it comes to contract negotiations in a private setting, it is the Company vs Worker. Management represents the company and its stockholders/owners who are the people who invested and own that company.

For one thing, the welfare of the stockholders does not keep management awake nights. Frankly, they don't give a rat's ass about the stockholder's well being unless they themselves are stockholders. Major stockholders. Otherwise the motivation for management is their own performance. They were sent to the negotiating table to cut labor costs. Their future employment rests on the outcome.

From LineCrosser: Tell me where the administration or management have any investment in the public entity. If you were to be intellectically honest you would have to say when it comes to PUBLIC sector unions that the taxpayers are the owners of that entity and are never honestly represented when it comes time for negotiations on either side.

The admin/mgmnt staff are invested in several ways. Their company's gross profit, so to speak, comes from the government and is finite. There are only so many greenbacks in the bucket and that's it. The only way to increase profit (actually, the amount of money that can be redistributed from payroll to other places) is to cut back on labor expenditures. Pay labor lower salaries/rates, cut back on benefits, etc. Any money saved can be spent on something else or it could be passed back to the State.

Another way management is invested is by control. I've stated many times that gun control is not about guns, it's about control. In labor negotiations it isn't about the wages and benefits, it's about control. The workers believe they are being treated unfairly and want fair treatment. Management believes the workers are treated more than fairly and believe the workers should be grateful for whatever they have. If you're management, the person sitting across the negotiating table from you usually reports to you. They've suddenly stopped calling you 'sir' and saluting every time you strut by. How long will you tolerate that kind of behavior?

Finally, let me remind you that a labor union doesn't form when everything's going along smoothly. Working conditions have to be pretty bad for a union to form, there usually has to be a huge rift between management and labor and these adversarial conditions must be systemic. Then it takes time. No one wakes up in the morning and spontaneously decides that today would be a nice day to form a labor union and start talking strike. The process takes months, and not everyone will join right away.

I think some sort of compromise might involve a mandatory reforming of the labor union every ten years or so.

The superintendent's and treasurer's contracts are negotiated directly with the board. The rest of the cabinets' contracts are negotiated with the superintendent and then approved by the board.

Also, as an FYI, the corporate sponsorship for a tech and higher ed school is sort of already being done in TPS. The Toledo Technology Academy is a magnet high school that is tech focused school with relationships with area businesses, and the Toledo Early College High School has a relationship with UT and has some relationships with local businesses.

madjack: "Yeah, a real three-way. Two bull dykes with strap-ons and a tied down taxpayer in the middle."

That is one hell of a visual...I think I may go blind

Sohio said: As I said, the taxpayers should be represented by elected officials who would be in negotiations with any unions present. If they aren't representing to the satisfaction of the constituents, maybe it's time to clean house...?

Astute. It's been long past time, but the best we ever got was the "Three For Change" campaign, which only got 2 of the 3, and then 1 of the 2 decided to just follow the rest of the Board. A couple of election cycles later, the Board was back to being packed with insiders and career politicians, who never saw a union contract they didn't like.

The voter has to take the blame for that one, that's perfectly correct.