Detroit casino revenues fall $17.5M in February

Begs the question that no one wants to address.

What is the saturation level?

Better the money stays at home than traveling north of the border. Still think they lost out on having it downtown to help tie in with the existing hotels and convention areas. What do I know though. :-P

Looks like this gambling thing really is a zero-sum game. Note Ohio's casinos are at 1/3rd of their expectations to boot.

sure, but if the casinos didn't exist at all... how much money would ohio be making? long and short of it, some people gamble. might as well figure out the best way to funnel that money to the greater good of wherever you live. right?

Exactly. Gambling would still be happening, but at least now most of that money is staying in Ohio and Toledo. It is about stopping the bleeding and trying to get some growth going again.

I wonder if Toledo's citizens would ever have the forward thinking of mimicking something like OKC's MAPS programs. The programs are essentially a 1% additional sales tax that can only be used towards capital improvements and quality of life projects.

MAPS 1 ($309M raised) - http://www.okc.gov/maps/index.html
Added: AAA Ballpark, Bricktown Canal, Chesapeake Energy Arena (home of the NBA Thunder), Art Museum
Renovated: Civic Center Music Hall, ConvectioN Center, Fairgrounds, Downtown Library, Riverfront

MAPS for Kids ($153M raised matched with other funds) - http://www.okc.gov/ocmaps/index.html
Completed: 70 new/renovated schools, new tech for classrooms, new buses.

MAPS 3 (Current Program, projected $777M to be raised) - http://www.okc.gov/maps3/
Projects: New convention center, new downtown central park, new Streetcar/Light rail mass transit system, additional river improvements (whitewater facility for US Olympic rowing team that is now based here and public), Fairgrounds improvements, senior health/wellness centers, additional bike/hiking trails, rebuilding of sidewalks, additional infrastructure upgrades with remaining funds.

Granted the city of Toledo wouldn't raise nearly as much money as down here, but it could be the tool needed to help kick start redevelopment.

What is the saturation level?

I think we've hit it...or gone beyond.

The programs are essentially a 1% additional sales tax that can only be used towards capital improvements and quality of life projects.

In a city that voted down a convention center...then had it shoved down our throats...then voted down COSI/Imagination Station...and again had it shoved down our throats...let's just say we wouldn't trust that money being spent where its supposed to.

Besides, we've essentially done MAPS 1 and MAPS for Kids already in Toledo, just by different means. We have a new AAA stadium, arena, Seagate (convention center), Art Museum is doing fine, and we just rebuilt damn near every public school. Another 1% on top...I think it would go to buy the mayor more SUVs or prop up some loser like ESM, not to the quality of life things you mention.

Call me cynical and pessimistic, but I've lived here a while...

^oldhommie - yup, agreed

Yeah I can appreciate that point of view. The good thing with the OKC MAPS program, the city doesn't get a say in the money. There is an independent oversight panel that controls the money, sometimes causing City Council to groan quite a bit. Of course the problem is who is going to be on the panel and how they are selected.

I agree that a lot of the "MAPS 1" projects were already done in Toledo. So I guess the thing to consider is, what quality of life features are missing from Toledo or what would make Toledo a better place to live? The main factor for these projects is to change a mindset that is widespread in a community. OKC was a dead oil bust town before they start these projects. Now its one of the fastest growing, diverse economies.

I think Toledo has a lot going for it, but just needs a major shift when it comes to the corporate/business community. I grew up in Toledo, come back several times a year, so I'm not unaware of the local issues there. The city just needs more people that are wanting to express what they would like to do/see instead of why something can't be done.

"Of course the problem is who is going to be on the panel and how they are selected."

Bingo! Therein lies the first major hurdle. In a county so rife with corrupt politicians (I often wonder if there are any other kind), I'd find it hard to have any faith in an appointed board to oversee the $$.

JS, the first and last sentences in the third paragraph above contain more truth and accuracy than you may know. The first thing that "we the people" need to see is responsible government that doesn't continue to rob the funds we've already approved for infrastructure to fund their folly of the week. The minute that tax revenues begin to slow, the politicos start robbing CIP funds blind and come up with ways to raise more $$ for their ever increasing spending appetites. They never do what the rest of us do when faced with less $$ to work with.

No fan of tax increases (for the aforementioned reasons) am I but I could support something like an additional 1% for ongoing road maintenance and the like if - and this is a mighty big "if" - those elected to serve us began behaving responsibly and became far better stewards of our dough. Since I believe that has about as much chance as I do becoming the first person to walk on the planet Saturn, I'm pretty sure I won't have to make good on that promised support.

What OKC has done has worked and there's no reason it can't work everywhere - as long as we can keep the special interests and corrupt politicos out of it. It's difficult to garner support for such out of the box thinking when most of what we've seen locally are projects funded with "everyone's" money for the benefit/desire of the relative few.

Taxes are too high now. No More.

Foodie, yeah completely agree. I know down here there was a lot of resistance at first, but it's been a nice surprise how well its turned out. It's hard to say how best to pick people. Let's look at the Port Authority. It's picked by the mayor of Toledo and county commissioners and we've seen how well that's worked.

Deere1, I can understand that sentiment. Especially in a location that has both local income tax and state taxes. Here we have no local income tax and property taxes that are lower than what you guys are subjected to. Our sales tax though is around 8.5%, not sure what it is there.

6.75% sales tax

Let's look at the Port Authority.

Port Authority, City Council, School Board, Commissioners...

We rotate the same group of asshats through different seats of power. Done with City Council...how 'bout the school board? Tired of that gig, well how 'bout this position in the city? And that is what people here think will happen with any "independent" board here. Same people, different fiefdom. All with the same agenda.

And yes, the people are to blame for continually voting the same asshats robbing them blind into office.

How do they do it in OK?

Let's look at the Port Authority.

Port Authority, City Council, School Board, Commissioners...

We rotate the same group of asshats through different seats of power. Done with City Council...how 'bout the school board? Tired of that gig, well how 'bout this position in the city? And that is what people here think will happen with any "independent" board here. Same people, different fiefdom. All with the same agenda.

And yes, the people are to blame for continually voting the same asshats robbing them blind into office.

How do they do it in OK?

Sooner, I think its tough to compare OKC to Toledo.

No doubt that the MAPS has been successful program for "The City." The warehouse district in OKC has grown significantly over the last 25 years but MAPS has not been the cure-all.

What has been equally if not more important to the success of OKC, is the growth of Chesapeake and Devon Energy companies. Those two companies along with the "downstream" businesses have provided a substantial boost to the OKC economy.

Generally, Toledo area corporations aren't growing like they once were (OC and Dana both coming out of bankruptcy in the last 5-6 years) and until these business have the ability to make significant investment in region or the smaller entities grow substantially, I don't think that a MAPS-3 program will work by itself.

Additionally, by being the capital of Oklahoma, OKC has reaped additional benefits, not unlike other capital cities Columbus, OH or Indianapolis, IN. If you look at Tulsa, OK over the same 25 years, it hasn't prospered near as much as OKC.

BTW, thanks for posting all of the weather updates for us up here. I really appreciate your insight and perspective.

OHT - Yeah, and that has been something that has plagued Toledo for years. The continue rotation of the same couple dozen people into various positions so they don't have to get a "real" job.

For here, we have an Airport Trust that is in charge of the 3 OKC airports (Will Rogers, Wiley Post, CE Page) and its lead by the Director of Airports. The trust then has 5 trustees that help oversee operations, one of which is the mayor of OKC and another the city manager (we aren't strong mayor form here).

City Council is eight seats only and each covers one of the city's 8 wards and no at-large seats. Compared to Toledo's 12 seats to cover a city almost 1/3rd the population and significantly smaller in geographic coverage (88 sq miles versus 624 sq miles).

Tigers - I agree it is tough to compare, but that doesn't mean you still can't borrow ideas. I would say most would agree MAPS is what got the ball rolling on wanting to redevelop things. The success of Devon, Chesapeake, and the other large/local corporate citizens has helped as well. It also says something when GM shuts down the assembly plant, impacting up to 7500 jobs at GM and suppliers, and the economy doesn't skip a heart beat. The state capital and military impacts help as well, which Toledo doesn't have access to. Like you compared Tulsa, they haven't had nearly the same success but are finally deciding to invest in their city and get things moving. They spent years resting on their laurels when OKC struggled that they simply got caught being lazy.

I agree that Toledo's corporate citizens haven't been and aren't currently in a position to reinvest. This is when attracting new businesses is key and the area has to be attractive to them. Typically those enhancements that make the city attractive to businesses will also help with the local perception of the city.

Toledo is in a small list of cities that have access to a major port and a beautiful lake front. They need to be exploited. However the basics definitely need to be handled. Good roads, quality schools, and relatively attractive/safe neighborhoods. Revitalizing the core also needs to happen at some point, but that might also include clearing out blighted areas and starting over.

Sooner I'm sorry I also have had issues with your constant comparisons to OKC. I've spent a significant amount of time there as of late working in the shale/oil field for most of the last year as heavy industrial manufacturing is a dead market and those here are left to fight for 5 - 8% margins.

The OKC/Tulsa area has and probley will always have Texas Tea under their feet, Blackwall Street (which was really a Libertarian enclave) would have never been able to exist in Toledo. You keep talking about "reinvesting", well there is NO MONEY TO REINVEST. Take it from the citizens through taxation just to get down on your knees to give the money away to the Larry Dillins of the world is a zero sum game.

Yes I guess their are some similarities but OKC has a cash flow gold mine under their feet give by nature. Lake Erie, the Metro Parks, or downtown hotels can not be used as fuel to put into your car. When OKC needs money for MAPS 1 or MAPS 487 all they have to do is shove their hand in the ground and pull out a wad of cash. When Toledo needs money it shoves it's hand in the pocket of someone who has in all likelihood been out of work for at least 6 months once or twice in the last 5 years, is working a job he is way over qualified for and his home is under water.

Toledo and OKC is not even close fair comparison and you keep making it over and over. Population and square footage does not make a valid comparison. Completely different culture and political views.

I guess its more about looking at how communities think outside the box to find ways to turn around. I understand the differences completely. The oil and gas production here definitely helps. Don't forget that the area around Toledo has had plenty of oil production in its past as well, but has been abandoned for decades - something that perhaps could profit greatly with new fracking methods (see Youngstown area).

I'm not so much saying that you need to do things exactly like OKC, San Antonio, Austin, or any of the other cities that are expanding rapidly. I'm saying that the constant "we're screwed, hopeless, and should die" mindset gets old when there are always ways out of it.

No more to reinvest? Sure there is. The problem is the mindset and politics of the area has pushed it all to the suburbs or further away. Different culture and political views? Definitely. This area is by far much more conservative, at least socially, but local city governments in the bigger cities are more moderate to slightly liberal at times. It isn't the perfect situation since we have the opposite of Toledo, lopsided one party control especially at the state level. It is hard to gauge at the local level because a lot of cities tend to run non-partisan races. You can't declare a party or run endorsed by a party (push a partisan agenda) or are disqualified.

Culturally it is definitely different down here. They don't mope around and feel sorry for themselves. Anything happens and the community rallies together and does what is needed. Are they perfect though? Not at all.

Each area has a lot of pluses and minuses to them. Sometimes it isn't a bad idea to look at what is working elsewhere and see how maybe some of that could be used to get things turned around.

"Each area has a lot of pluses and minuses to them. Sometimes it isn't a bad idea to look at what is working elsewhere and see how maybe some of that could be used to get things turned around."

Amen JS! This area could start by capitalizing on the assets currently here - natural and man made.

To beat the dead horse: our natural assets, geographic location, at the crossroads of I-75 and the turnpike.........

Never ceases to amaze me how Toledo does not utilize the downtown waterfront to the fullest.

That being said, the elephant in the room remains Toledo's anti-business reputation - real and perceived.

JS I'm not downing your spirit in attempts to change the view of Toledo because it needs to be done. But you just can't keep using OKC/Tulsa area as an example because they have cash flow running right underneath their feet. It's easy to try a bunch of new social and civil experiences when you have the funds to do it.

The people in OKC are no smarter then fools that run Toledo, OKC dinkises just have the cash to keep trying experiments till one works. They are not the geniuses of civil planning as your make them out to be. You are discount the near unlimited natural revenue the have.

Youngstown is not Toledo, I've worked at several of the frac'ing sites in that area. Stuebenville, Cadiz, and Arrowhead are really West Virginia and Pittsburgh markets.

Foodie - Exactly. Definitely agree the anti-business regime of those controlling Government Center needs to go.

DBW - I think you overestimate the impact of the oil/gas industry in OKC a bit. It definitely isn't an unlimited cash flow. Prices drops in natural gas sting and if the city gets too reliant on them, it can hurt. However, the economy is much more diversified than what it once was. The largest industries in the OKC MSA are going to be split pretty well between government, biomedical research, services, aerospace, and of course oil/gas.

Chesapeake is unstable right now and very well could be bought up and split apart. However, they've also done a lot of good in rehabbing their neighborhood and investing in the community.

I see what you are saying, but suggestions can only be offered from what is known. I could sit here and provide examples on what Austin has done, but I don't have first hand experience of it.

Your comment about OKC having the cash to keep trying until one works exposes your lack of knowledge of what took place. The MAPS 1 program was before oil/gas prices rebounded. They city was struggling severely, Bricktown was a ghost town, and the vibe was much similar to what it is in Toledo now. So you can't say that the city knew they what would happen - it was a gamble to invest in the city to try to change things. Now that they know it works, they've continued to utilize the model and yes...it definitely helps when oil/gas sectors have recovered compared to what they were.

I understand what you are trying to say, but you really just don't comprehend the dynamics of it all. These projects were started when all hope was essentially lost and the money wasn't there yet. The rebound has just allowed the projects to continue and expand off the momentum those initial projects started.

Oh, boy. Oh boy! RANT TIME! 8^D

I really wish the Justasooners of the world stop thinking that Toledo can grow. It's not going to grow. It's got to shrink and continue economic decline. There's no other option. Capital and population have fled and continue to flee. Toledo has to get smaller and cheaper, and there's one thing that's totally incompatible with that, Liberals and Democrats running the government. Just look what those simpering crooks have done to Detroit.

DBW got so annoyed by Justa's refusal to acknowledge reality that he started using BOLDFACE to make the point. We don't have capital, public or private. Trying to capture private capital to fill public coffers only drives captialists away (... faster). Capitalists have become extremely mobile. This is a fact of life in modern globalism and you can't do a fucking thing to stop it. You must accept it. You have no choice. Personal actions won't stop it. Government actions won't stop it. It's politically, even physically impossible to stop it.

Do you all get it, yet? Well, any common inspection of popular media around Toledo shows that you fucking DON'T.

You're all going to continue buying corporate products and services, and you're going to continue dumping any spare dime or dollar into Wall Street. You're therefore a slave to the corporations and bankers. Since you keep supporting them and refuse to understand the link between your own behavior and your lack of pension, health care and employment, then it really comes down to phsycial law: You'll suffer, and you deserve to suffer. That's what happens to stupid, stupid people.

So, to come back to Toledo's particular fate, we're only in for decline. We have a shrinking tax base, which is being partially replaced with an expanding welfare class. When you tax income, your revenues in Toledo must decline. Guaranteed. When you tax assets, your revenues in Toledo must decline. Guaranteed. What else are you going to do? Tax breathing? Tax urination? Tax walking? And what can you possibly obtain, ultimately in Toledo, by imposing extra taxes? Payment in spit and dandruff? Toledoans have nothing more to give, in terms of money and assets. You can't keep taking their homes... those have to be monetized, which means they must be SOLD, for cash money. Toledo housing is only getting cheaper. The housing bubble popped here, a long time ago, and prices are only continuing to drop, since housing prices are linked to incomes.

So Toledo must learn to make do with less. Do less with less, as I like to say. And there's no amount of discussion or argument or complaining that will alter that. People will do less with less. Government will do less with less. Businesses will do less with less. It's a fucking Great Depression here, what else can happen?

P.S. I need to change my name to EffBomber. LOL!

Did someone forget their meds today? Oh poor child. The images and voices will go away soon. LOL

Chesapeake is splitting itself to dodge a lot of new taxes coming down the pipe on the shale industry. Chesapeake will become NOMAC, and Great Plains while selling a good piece of it's business portfolio to Markwest (just what I've heard). Plus Chesapeake has a large footprint in SE Ohio and are moving into deep Appalachia, Chesapeake is going nowhere, neither is the revenue. I will point out that a lot of technology companies you speak of where started to service the oil industry and to their credit they have done well branching out. But no shale, no tech economy.

Your right I am no historical expert on OKC, but I dare you to take the pulse of the average OKC'er and ask them if MAP 18898474563 saved their community or was it the boomtown funding... I promise they don't kiss up to the civil planners like you do. They know the score.

You can say they are splitting to dodge a lot of new taxes coming, but perhaps you don't keep up on the whole corporate take over and the axing of McClendon.

As far as local OKC residents and their recognition of the impact MAPS has had on the community, you definitely show how clueless you are. Regardless, that is for a discussion on their forums not Toledo's. My point was showing how other cities took unique approaches when it came to pulling out of a slump. You continue to exhibit and reinforce the negatively that keeps Toledo down. At some point, hopefully, that way of thinking will die off and a new energy will move in. Unfortunately it'll probably take going through a couple of generations to clean it out.

The funny thing is, out of all of these discussions the negativity seems to just flow but the people that dish it have yet to produce any suggestions or solutions to improve things. It's easy and causes less mental strain to take the low road and just bash something. It takes creativity and pride to try to come up with solutions to move things along.

So far it is just bash bash bash. What solutions with the resources available do you have that could help turn Toledo around? What do you feel needs to change and how would you change it?

"Unfortunately it'll probably take going through a couple of generations to clean it out"

You know JS, I used to believe that to be true. I came to Toledo in 1980 - at the height of the "downtown revitalization." Took some serious looks around the city and thought "Wow, with the geographics and all these shiny new buildings downtown, this place is really poised for an economic boom." Still waiting.

It took me a couple of years to figure out that the problem was (is) the apathy of the populace. That, and the fact that they keep voting for the merry-go-round of the same candidates. And I had the same thought as you - well, this should shake out in a couple, three decades. Hasn't happened. Same apathy (generational I believe), many of the same names holding political office and now a dwindling population and eroding tax base. Sadly, the majority of the population seem to be "ok" with the status quo.

That, and the fact that they keep voting for the merry-go-round of the same candidates.

When you have one party rule in any area, this is what you get. Republican, Democrat, it doesn't matter. One party rule breeds self-dealing, self-aggrandizement (i.e. "we have all the answers--those people in the _________ Party are evil idiots."), and an overall feeling of "why vote?--same assholes, different day."

There's almost nobody in local political office seriously challenging the ideas of the local Democrat party (maybe Waniewski on a good day, maybe Collins too). There are some differences IN the party, but without any sort of viable counter-arguments or policies being offered by local Republicans (insert favorite Jon Stainbrook rant here) or "independents", this is where we are. Watch City Council meetings--it's usually a rubber stamp affair.

You want cynical: does anybody seriously ...seriously ...believe that Shaun Enright is someone we should have on City Council? He's the best we could come up with on short notice??? That's the guy who's going to lead a pro-business renaissance in Toledo? And the sad thing is, he'll be funded and elected in the next go-round because now he's a "name"...you know, unless he tacks another felony on his record.

Sad state of affairs. I wish the best for Toledo. I like the MAPS idea, conceptually. I don't trust the current crop to manage that kind of money or power well. And I don't know how you shake that without a transformative leader...and "independent" Mike Bell ain't it.

Foodie - You are probably the correct. It is pretty clear that the ones that are always negative and whining about how horrible the place is, are the ones that are causing the problem. So the responses I've been getting from those of that mindset can't really be ruled surprising. They enjoy living in a miserable world and are set to pull everyone down with them.

OHT - Yeah, something that has to be done to break the single party rule. I'm not sure what the answer is though. The problem of course is any solution would have to be passed by the idiots in power and they won't do anything that would limit their power. A single term limit value across all the various offices at one particular level (city, county, etc) would help stop the career politicians some. If you limit them to say 12 years total, it would flush them out and stop the merry-go-round seat picking. I would say you could force non-partisan local elections, but that won't really do much. Maybe the answer is eliminating a lot of elected positions and make them appointments with required job credentials. Those appointments end at the end of, for example, that mayor's term. Much like the cabinet. Also need to see city council numbers reduced. No need for 12 people at all and no need for at-large crap.

County Government is a whole 'nother issue as well. It's just rehashed Toledo politicians. It might be time to do something similar to here, break the Commissions up into districts. You still have 3, but let's say something like this.

District 1 - all sections east of I-75. So Point Place, Shoreland, Downtown, Lagrange, Oregon, out to the park.

District 2 - All areas between US 23 and I-75.

District 3 - All areas west of US 23.

Candidates can only live in the district they are running for. This should push in some fresh blood from the Suburbs that aren't so focused on one specific area of the county.

Anyways back on track a bit. Yeah a transformative leader is going to be need, Bell is definitely not it. However, you are going to need someone that isn't going to think twice about standing up to the establishment and the strong unions.

"However, you are going to need someone that isn't going to think twice about standing up to the establishment and the strong unions."

And in this county that equals you not getting elected.

Yeah I know. LOL I guess I'm too much of an idealist. :)

I more than understand how the MAP program worked, it came mostly form sales tax approved by the people. My whole point is that the people didn't mind chipping in a little more to improve their community because they had a nature given economy underground! You think they would have been so quick to approve a 1% sales tax a couple of times if they didn't have well paying jobs to being with!

MAPS created bike paths, stadiums, and a bunch of really nice stuff. I will say they didn't waste the money but if you really think that bike paths lead to a turn around I suggest you pull your head out of the sand. Toledo has build a nice new ball park, a quality arena venue, and spruced up it's downtown... hows that worked for you?

Stop lifting up government officials in OKC as some world beater, because with out the black gold under their feet NONE of it would have been possible. Arenas and stadiums are the output of a successful economy, they don't produce one. By the way Albuquerque has tried the Maps program, an so far it's been a abject failure. Could be because they can't shovel to prosperity.

I'm as old as dirt and I can remember when Republicans were mayors and council was not a rubber stamp. I grew up in a Republican family and my Uncle was head of the Republican Party in the 40's and 50's. This town was growing then and the auto industry was booming.

By the time my daughters graduated from college, 1977 and 1987, the first thing they did was get a job "out of Toledo". If you were looking for cutting edge technology our town wasn't it.

I look around now and am saddened by the mess we have created. A growing, thriving community needs a good public school system, parks and recreation, libraries, art museums, zoos, etc. We fail on so many of these levels and I have heard way too many people bashing anything that cost money in this town. More than one person bashed me for voting for last fall's levies and costing "them" money.

I think us natives here remember the good times, the great downtown area, alive with lots of people, great movies theaters, hotels, restaurants and wonder what happened. It is a complex question with no easy answers. A viable and honest Republican party with good candidates would help.

But I for one wish only the best for our town and the community.

DBW...DBW...you are just digging yourself a hole here. For one, it was 100% from sales tax funding. It was also approved in 1993 when OKC had just gone through one of the most depressing times in its history. It was further reinforced by large companies (United Airlines for example) refusing to locate in the City because of no quality of life features. I would recommend looking up the facts on the OKC economy at the time prior to the original MAPS program. Income per capita growth was flat to just about equal with the national average. About a year after the first MAPS projects were completed OKC's growth accelerated well above the national average.

You keep going back to the oil the oil the oil. Yes, there is oil and natural gas here. Back then, it wasn't doing all that much for the economy - which for some reason you are failing to comprehend.

Again there are significant differences between the two towns. One of the biggest things is the corporate residents that reinvested into the urban core as these projects got rolling. Unfortunately for Toledo most have decided to flee to the burbs. I have never said MAPS is/was the only thing that turned OKC around. I'm saying it was a tool that assisted and provided a huge boost. It made people proud of their city and allowed the momentum to continue on now for almost 20 years.

In the past ten years that I have lived in Toledo, downtown has had a resurgence. Toledo's downtown while not "thriving" certainly has more residents now than ten years ago, more restaurants, a new arena and ball park. The community just invest $800 million into the schools. This has happened while the "tax base" was shrinking.

I think I read that in the 1970's Toledo had 7 or 8 Fortune 500 companies in Toledo (many if not most downtown) and as well as very strong and wealthy local financial institutions (Toledo Trust, Mid-Am Bank, etc). However, the region went through significant consolidation and many corporations were bought by others and headquarters were relocated, thus having a negative impact on community investment. The remaining companies weren't in "growth industries" and spent much time in bankruptcy or trying to stay out of bankruptcy.

Additionally the "local" banks were bought up by regional banks that again aren't headquartered here.

Finally, we hadn't do a good job of "back-filling" fostering innovation for potential new industry opportunities and to anticipate this consolidation.

I propose that explains much of the reason for Toledo's struggles of the last 30 years rather than the political leaders.

I believe Toledo is trending up and there are more pockets of growth and innovation. As the region continues to reinvent ourselves, Toledo will continue to grow stronger as a community and we will be in a better place 15 - 20 years.

Sooner, I appreciate hearing your perspective of things in OKC. As someone who grew up in Oklahoma, I read the Oklahoman everyday and have many friends and family still living throughout the state. I am excited to always read, see, and hear what's happening back in my home state/town.

Here's part of the problem. The cultural disease that's been well named as the "Cult of Growth":

Kevyn Orr: My goal is to create a blueprint for Detroit growth
http://www.freep.com/article/20130316/NEWS01/303160079/Kevyn-Orr-My-goal-is-to-create-a-blueprint-for-Detroit-growth

Face, meet palm. There won't be any growth. In the decline of the Petroleum Age, overburdened with debt, Americans will have to make do with less, even do less with less. We're not going to grow like we did in the 20th Century. That was fueled by petroleum. Nothing replaces petroleum. So we're looking to shrink the US population, soon enough. That's physics. It's not just opinion. "Opinion" means there are material facts that can support another rational conclusion; there are none in this case, other than petroleum starvation.

Foodie said: Same apathy (generational I believe), many of the same names holding political office and now a dwindling population and eroding tax base.

Keep blaming the reaction instead of the action, Foodie. Nothing happens without industrial capital and energy. We have neither. No amount of personal hope and enthusiasm will create a factory and customer list; you need capital for those.

Big capital expenditures held Toledo's legacy economy together. These declined. Therefore the city had to go into decline. Building more strip malls and a casino wasn't going to stop that. We were a heavily industrial city. Only heavy industry can save it, and that's not coming, probably ever, ever again.

Toledo's future is spelled L-E-S-S. We should change the city name to Toless.

Tigers said: The community just invest $800 million into the schools.

Check your math. The supermajority of funding for the mafia-benefiting school destruction project came from the feds. At least 3 of every 4 dollars spent, to my recollection.

We didn't have $800 million. That's the point. The other point is that Democrats and Liberals have no problems spending other people's money.

I am a terrible writer, sorry for the poor grammar. I should have also double sourced my facts before I posted, my apologies. There was a $650 million investment in the schools. The monies were local and state dollars made possible from from the tobacco settlement).

GZ said: "Keep blaming the reaction instead of the action, Foodie. Nothing happens without industrial capital and energy. We have neither. No amount of personal hope and enthusiasm will create a factory and customer list; you need capital for those."

Absolutely agree GZ. In case you didn't read from further above, IMO, one of the main reasons we have no new industry or capital is:

"That being said, the elephant in the room remains Toledo's anti-business reputation - real and perceived."

I can't deny that's a factor, Foodie. But there are other things at work. Toledo is the worst sort of blue collar population with a fleeing White base. Annoying ignorance, ridiculous crime, absurd taxation and predatory unions await those who dare to open a business here.

I was able to be part of a management team in a certain government job, and it was terribly hard to keep people on site each day at the appointed time. The job wasn't difficult at all, and we provided training. Largely the job was just sitting there. Yet, at any one particular time, a full 10% of the workforce had called off. We even confirmed a few people had not even showed up, or left the site as soon as the manager came by to get their timesheets signed. Even for a government job, the gross nature of the workforce appalled me.

There are other examples, but I won't bore you with the details. So I understand to a degree why employers are so routinely contemptuous around here. Look at what they have to deal with. So... ultimately, if you can move your business out of here, then why not?