Toledo Talk

Real Estate Taxes

Here we go, I again paid my real estate taxes, however, I see properties on Aeries that have not paid any taxes in 10 years or more, these are residential properties. I have complained about this for 2 years now. Yet no one sees to care, there are no liens show on Aeries on these properties and no payment up to 10 or more years, yet nothing is done. I spoke to someone who rents and he says he pays on time every month, yet the real estate taxes on the property amount to over 25 percent of the value and Aeries shows no payments since the owner bought 10 years ago and there are many many more. So why are we as tax payers in Lucas County subsidizing real estate speculators? These people buy and collecting all the rent they can and then what, let it go into foreclosure or let the county take it and of course the county is not doing that or else it would have been done long ago. We elect people and hire people to take care of this, yet they are not doing their job, no one cares or brings it up. Are we to become another Wayne County in Michigan and Detroit, where the same thing is happening, not collecting or attempting to collect real estate taxes. Yes I agree some can not pay, but explain the landlord collecting all that rent, yet nothing is paid. The law and rules have to be applied evenly and fairly, and that means you take the property at a certain point. Keep letting this not paying for 10 years go on and you have nothing, yet the investor has collected. We need open records and we need a list of all properties that nothing has been collected in 3 years or more, would that be something that could be asked for under an open records policy request. What news paper or radio station or who is going to make our government officials accountable. I donít care if the property is listed as owned by an LLC, since that is the answer I got one year ago, hard to figure out who owns, well it is your job as an elected official or hired worker to enforce the law and collect. I see most of these properties as a total write off, but still yet if they had attempted to collect after a few years you would not be in that situation and the rules and regulations would have been applied fairly and justly. Some property they go after the owner in a few years and others sit 10 years with nothing done or no attempt to collect. I would think this would be a bigger scandal that should make the front page of The Blade, go figure. And no these are not tax abatement properties.

created by Nyse on Jan 11, 2014 at 05:53:36 pm     Comments: 40

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Liens do not show up on Aries, but will show on the Lucas county recorders site http://apps.co.lucas.oh.us/index/ foreclosures for taxes will show on the Lucas county court site
http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/index.aspx?NID=99 It still takes a couple years to wind thru the court system.

posted by OldTimer on Jan 11, 2014 at 06:38:52 pm     #  

Yes, of course you are correct Liens do show on Lucas county recorders site - does it take 10 years before they take the property? It does if nothing is said or done or government officials are not held accountable. The Blade just bragged last year about the land bank taking a property in downtown, yet taxes had not been paid in years and years, while the investor got to hold the property hoping for a golden parachute. Yet the property should have been taken many years before. And again the laws and how they are applied must be fair, equitable and impartial. Again we need a list of anyone who has not paid anything in over 3 years. If you have not paid or attempted to pay anything the paying public needs to know and we need to know what the Treasurers office is doing to attempt to collect on these properties.

posted by Nyse on Jan 11, 2014 at 06:54:51 pm     #   1 person liked this

It costs more to foreclose than the properties are worth.

posted by HickoryG on Jan 11, 2014 at 07:19:50 pm     #  

^^^^^
This

posted by Ace_Face on Jan 11, 2014 at 07:46:43 pm     #  

...need more paragraphs...

posted by slowsol on Jan 11, 2014 at 08:43:14 pm     #   7 people liked this

If you can identify the landlord, plaster his name on a billboard along a road leading to his own neighborhood. People have done that with slumlords and photos of their decrepit buildings. Of course, you would have to do the research, or pay someone for help, and rent the billboard.

You seem like a competent writer. Why not draw up a proposal and submit the story idea to the City Paper and Free Press?

posted by viola on Jan 12, 2014 at 11:58:28 am     #  

Can you post an address of one of these properties? I thought Wade K came out a while ago and said he was moving forcefully against unpaid taxes, including selling off the liens to get collections. If they sell of the lien, the deliquinency should disappear from AREIS I would think.

posted by MrsArcher on Jan 12, 2014 at 12:28:06 pm     #  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNP45vwkluo

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 12, 2014 at 12:33:45 pm     #  

viola posted at 10:58:28 AM on Jan 12, 2014:

If you can identify the landlord, plaster his name on a billboard along a road leading to his own neighborhood. People have done that with slumlords and photos of their decrepit buildings. Of course, you would have to do the research, or pay someone for help, and rent the billboard.

You seem like a competent writer. Why not draw up a proposal and submit the story idea to the City Paper and Free Press?

This would make a great video series for EconCat. Top 10 Commercial and Top 10 Residential Slumlords and Absentee Landlords. Could even go look up bank and real estate management co. type owners too.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 12, 2014 at 12:49:25 pm     #   6 people liked this

I have to admit. I like the new and improved anonymouscoward.

posted by Molsonator on Jan 12, 2014 at 01:16:23 pm     #   5 people liked this

anonymouscoward posted at 11:49:25 AM on Jan 12, 2014:
viola posted at 10:58:28 AM on Jan 12, 2014:

If you can identify the landlord, plaster his name on a billboard along a road leading to his own neighborhood. People have done that with slumlords and photos of their decrepit buildings. Of course, you would have to do the research, or pay someone for help, and rent the billboard.

You seem like a competent writer. Why not draw up a proposal and submit the story idea to the City Paper and Free Press?

This would make a great video series for EconCat. Top 10 Commercial and Top 10 Residential Slumlords and Absentee Landlords. Could even go look up bank and real estate management co. type owners too.

I agree. Of course, that would require EconCat to do some actual research besides just walking around with a camera and talking about what a dump Toledo is.

I wonder if the Treasurer's office has the capability of sorting parcels by total amount of taxes past due. But that might not actually be significant if you take into consideration that a property owner who is only delinquent for one payment may owe far more than an owner of less valuable properties who may be several years delinquent. I have to be in Goverment Center this week. Maybe I will swing down there and ask.

posted by Ace_Face on Jan 12, 2014 at 01:19:32 pm     #   1 person liked this

OK, just watched Econ's video and see that he appears to have looked up some information about the parcels in question. So mea culpa.

Two interesting things about the company that owns those parcels. I looked Lagrange Investment Corporation up on the Ohio Secretary of State's website. First, the corporation charter was canceled in 2006 for failing to file the necessary tax documents with the state. Second, the incorporator of Lagrange Investment was Paul Syring, who was one of Bell's deputy mayors and in charge of economic development. Now, it happens sometimes that a lawyer will be the incorporator instead of the people actually involved with the business, but who knows?

http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/pls/bsqry/f?p=100:7:0::NO:7:P7_CHARTER_NUM:929674

posted by Ace_Face on Jan 12, 2014 at 01:39:41 pm     #  

we should start a kickstarter to fund a gopro camera and a steady cam for econcat88. only need to raise about $500. man alive that shaky footage is hard to watch.

posted by upso on Jan 12, 2014 at 03:20:31 pm     #  

Molsonator posted at 12:16:23 PM on Jan 12, 2014:

I have to admit. I like the new and improved anonymouscoward.

I believe AC Mach 2.0 is the correct new name.

posted by historymike on Jan 12, 2014 at 03:26:59 pm     #  

Let me know about large amounts of unpaid property taxes by area businesses and after the amounts are verified at areis, I will get the footage uploaded

posted by EconCat88 on Jan 12, 2014 at 03:30:07 pm     #  

Ace I decided to not specifically mention name Information but the principal owner of lagrange inv corp also owes more than $ 12,000 delinquent property taxes for a house in maumee. It is ridiculous the county is not more strict about collecting unpaid amounts.

posted by EconCat88 on Jan 12, 2014 at 03:35:07 pm     #  

So it is ok to be a real estate speculator because you know Lucas County will not do anything to you. And how do you think that is making the honest tax payers feel. When I retired, I did a spread sheet on several of the worst offenders and spend hundreds of hours on it because of another discussion on Toledo Talk. Of course no one again cared or would take action. As the real estate speculators set there and collect tens of thousands of dollars in rent per month and not pay their real estate taxes. Or maybe I want to spend my money on Caribbean vacations and I have an older home in Toledo, well I know I don't have to worry because Lucas County won't collect, then if they do, I will just let the house go? No, garnish wages, attach bank accounts, put liens on, do your job and no nonsense about LLC or ETAL and we don't know who to hold responsible and it is not just these speculators, it is property with one person on the title and maybe ETAL. Again I could go down there and put the stack on their desks of some of these properties, funny thing is in December 2013 in the Toledo Free Press as required by law the list was published, I don't see the worst offenders on the list. Obviously they have not made any arrangements to pay, since up to 10 years property taxes are shown and not one payment, but yet not on the list. Here is a link to the list - Dec. 8, 2013 http://issuu.com/toledofreepress/docs/delinquentlandtaxnotices_120813 .

posted by Nyse on Jan 12, 2014 at 05:22:41 pm     #  

Interesting that most of the parcels listed owe less than $1,000. Makes me think the big ones might have been sent to collections.

posted by Ace_Face on Jan 12, 2014 at 05:41:01 pm     #  

One interesting name made the list on page 23/24. The Berdan LLC with at least three delinquent parcels owing more than 17k.

Another delinquent owner is TME Properties Superior LLC with more than 10k owed.

Does anybody have an explanation for 500 Jefferson?

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 12, 2014 at 06:09:18 pm     #  

historymike posted at 02:26:59 PM on Jan 12, 2014:
Molsonator posted at 12:16:23 PM on Jan 12, 2014:

I have to admit. I like the new and improved anonymouscoward.

I believe AC Mach 2.0 is the correct new name.

AC is legion.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 12, 2014 at 06:23:47 pm     #  

The Treasurers office seems unwilling or unable to collect, that means they are taking less money in, making the government offices, schools, everyone get less and making our taxes go up. Selling these liens off like 2004 - http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2008/12/25/Debt-collector-drowns-Lucas-County-court-with-tax-lien-foreclosures.html The land bank is not getting us the money.

posted by Nyse on Jan 13, 2014 at 01:35:51 pm     #  

Regarding "The land bank is not getting us the money.": The property next door to me is back on the tax roles due to the Land Bank. I know, because I just paid my property taxes, and they increased quite a bit after we annexed the foreclosed property to our primary lot.

posted by gamegrrl on Jan 13, 2014 at 02:01:06 pm     #  

roles = rolls

posted by gamegrrl on Jan 13, 2014 at 02:11:55 pm     #  

OK, just for the sake of balance, let me point out some other aspects of this phenomena:

  • Just because the county allows taxes to pile up on properties does not mean the money is lost. At any given time in the history of the county there have been property owners who fall into various stages of delinquency. This is not a new problem, nor is it necessarily an acute problem. Present-day delinquency rates are likely higher than they have been in the past, given the fact that we are crawling out of a recession, but this should be considered an expected part of the business cycle in macroeconomic terms.
  • Unlike most other forms of property, real estate is fixed in terms of location. The lien is the county's way of making sure that at some point it will collect the unpaid taxes: properties cannot change hands without the county lifting the lien. If a property owner fails to pay taxes, they cannot simply relocate the property (unlike, say, a person who stops making car payments).
  • Personally, I would rather live next to a house with an owner who happens to be delinquent on property taxes than to live next to a vacant house that attracts metal thieves, vandals, or squatters. It is in everyone's interest in a neighborhood to have greater occupancy rates, and a draconian "throw the tax deadbeats out on the street" approach might cause more problems than it fixes in terms of maintaining stable neighborhoods and reducing crime.

posted by historymike on Jan 13, 2014 at 03:39:18 pm     #   7 people liked this

Or in an other case, Larry Bush owned 2 shopping centers in Point Place and did not bother to pay the taxes or morgage until the properties deteriorated to the point where most of the tenents moved out they became unsellable. . The land bank took them over and $500,000 in taxes were lost.

posted by OldTimer on Jan 13, 2014 at 04:17:42 pm     #  

^ Two in the hand were worth one in the Bush.

posted by justread on Jan 13, 2014 at 04:27:07 pm     #   2 people liked this

One poster says the land bank got it and the property is back on the tax rolls, how long did property tax accumulate and how much. The point that tax collection has to be fair, impartial and equitable, unless you are that to each and every taxpayer you have a broke system. That means everyone must be treated the same. We can not have some that the county does nothing for years and others that are held responsible after a few years. And there lies the rub, Aeries makes it appear along with statement from owners and others that a policy that is impartial is not be followed.

posted by Nyse on Jan 13, 2014 at 05:33:12 pm     #  

I'm not sure what you're referring to as far as posters and comments on the Land Bank, since the comment was apparently outside of this thread, but as far as the idea that the Land Bank clears the taxes owed, that's true. But it's like a company filing for Chapter 11. It's not like if someone owns a building and doesn't pay, the Land Bank clears his debts and he keeps the building. They take control of the property and find someone capable of paying the taxes on it. I don't know of any cases of the Land Bank taking control of a property where the owner was capable of making the payments. So it's either a) go after a negligent owner who has no money and hope to get something out of him, or b) take control of the property, assume the debts are lost, and start fresh with someone more qualified. Can't squeeze blood from a turnip, so you might as well move on.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 13, 2014 at 06:08:08 pm     #  

" take control of the property and find someone capable of paying the taxes on it."
I should clarify, capable of paying the future taxes on it. They won't be held accountable for the previous owner's back taxes.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 13, 2014 at 06:09:55 pm     #  

The poster referred to the land bank getting the property then it was transferred to an owner and now the owner is paying taxes, how long did the property go without taxes being paid before the land bank getting it. Again if you don't try to collect before these properties get out of hand you are doing a disservice to the honest taxpayers. Goes back to being fair, stick to the rules, fine take the property with land bank, but if you don't, then collect or turn it over to private collection firm, because doing nothing is not an option if want to operate a fair and equal program.

posted by Nyse on Jan 13, 2014 at 09:04:07 pm     #  

Nyse posted at 08:04:07 PM on Jan 13, 2014:

The poster referred to the land bank getting the property then it was transferred to an owner and now the owner is paying taxes, how long did the property go without taxes being paid before the land bank getting it. Again if you don't try to collect before these properties get out of hand you are doing a disservice to the honest taxpayers. Goes back to being fair, stick to the rules, fine take the property with land bank, but if you don't, then collect or turn it over to private collection firm, because doing nothing is not an option if want to operate a fair and equal program.

There are many scenarios where the county might forgo or reduce taxes on a property, not the least of which would be in the case of a deceased or disabled former owner.

Then you have the "good money chasing after bad money" scenarios: when an owner abandons a property and moves out of state, it may not be worth the time and effort to try and track down someone far away.

Would you prefer that a property sits vacant until all monies are collected, or would you rather see a property turned around quickly with new occupants?

As a business owner I wrote off all kinds of debt: bad checks, vendors who went belly up, or loans I made to employees who quit before making full repayment. Yes, it sucked to get burned, but it was a cost of doing business, and sometimes bad debts cannot be collected (or even avoided).

This is not about "fair" and "unfair," but rather about pragmatic realities.

posted by historymike on Jan 13, 2014 at 09:23:07 pm     #   1 person liked this

justread posted at 03:27:07 PM on Jan 13, 2014:

^ Two in the hand were worth one in the Bush.

Or maybe... One in the hand is worth two in the blouse.

posted by madjack on Jan 13, 2014 at 11:12:46 pm     #   1 person liked this

Madjack I understand your feelings. It is in fact a beautiful day in the neighborhood afterall.

posted by Mariner on Jan 14, 2014 at 06:49:18 am     #  

I understand what the previous posts were trying to convey. My point being, then shine the light of day on it, let all the taxpayers in Lucas County know that some properties have set 10 years without anything being done. Publish a list showing the amount of years that taxes have not been paid. I know some my neighbors were shocked by the information. We elect these people, let the taxpayers know what is going on. What is wrong with the light of day on government policies and procedures, this forum has shed some light on the subject and hopefully let the county know that people are watching - Land Banks rules and regulations. http://co.lucas.oh.us/documents/463/LCLRC%20Policies%20and%20Procedures%20as%20amended%202-17-_1.PDF

posted by Nyse on Jan 14, 2014 at 10:16:36 am     #  

Doing things because they are the right things to do--demonstrating responsibility to your neighbors, neighborhood, community, city, nation, religion ("Give to Caesar what is Caesar's...")--is so old-fashioned.

Advantage. Angles. Me. Mine. Winner. Think short-term. Losers stay behind.

The problem has grown so large that we have to think about continuing lawless behavior otherwise much worse consequences will take place? Awesome.

posted by oldhometown on Jan 14, 2014 at 03:50:54 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/Real-Estate/2014/02/21/Historic-home-up-for-sale-in-Old-West-End.html

Nearly 78k with a per half rated amount of approximately 3k. How and why was this allowed to occur? No property owner, especially a business should be allowed to fall this far behind. I'm happy they lost their appeal for exempt status.

Hopefully, the next owner pays the bills...preferably in full and timely.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 22, 2014 at 05:50:32 pm     #   1 person liked this

Buy it and we'll all rest easy.

posted by justread on Feb 22, 2014 at 06:04:49 pm     #  

6th floor posts a good question. With their taxes in the $6k range per year, this means that they are somewhere around 13 years behind!
That's ridiculous. Kinda makes those of us that pay their taxes on time seem like fools doesn't it?

posted by JeepMaker on Feb 23, 2014 at 11:31:16 am     #  

Here we go again, time to pay the semi annual real estate taxes, yet I see some properties in Lucas County that taxes have not been paid in almost 10 years and nothing is done.

The landbank says they are doing us a favor by taxing some properties, but I say you lost the taxes and by the time you take it, it is so run down it is not worth anything.

It is like an old drunk with a bar bill, you keep letting them run it and eventually you lose the money and the customer, it is more than time to enforce and collect like Detroit with it's water bills. Not collecting is unfair to the paying properties.

Some ideas, no government employee especially of a city in Lucas County or a county employee should be off the hook, garnish their wages. Make some individual responsible even if it is in a LLC, then turn the water off if the property is over so many quarters delinquent. Garnish, filing liens, turn the water off, some ideas, but just don't let it sit there till the property tax is worth more than the property and then take it and say you are doing us a favor.

And no more school taxes for any school district in Lucas County until Lucas County responds on exactly how they are handling this. I resent paying school tax while absent landlords sit in Florida with many properties and don't care if they pay or not because the properties have little value, so they collect the rent every month and if the county takes it eventually who cares. Which brings us to the final point, no property that is rented should be sitting with years of unpaid taxes, a portion of the rent collected should be forfeited to pay the taxes. This is how you also clean up blight, if people have some skin in the game they are more likely to take care of the property.

posted by Nyse on Jul 01, 2014 at 10:29:37 pm     #   3 people liked this

As far as a lien on the property goes, with real estate taxes, unpaid taxes are considered a lien on the property and they are first and best lien on the property, no other lien needs filed if the owner doesn't pay. If they go to sell or refinance the property the taxes will need paid. If the bank forecloses and it goes to a sheriff's sale and they owe back taxes, treasurer gets paid first. If the treasurer wants to collect then they need to file a foreclosure and hope the owner comes up with the money or it goes to a sheriff's sale.

I wish they would get more aggressive in collecting taxes. It pisses me off that I have a few neighbors who are behind in their taxes (I found this out when I was trying to see what other people were paying in taxes when contesting mine) and one of them has signs up supporting tax levy's a lot of times. If he isn't paying his own taxes current, he shouldn't be lobbying for higher taxes for those of us that do.

I don't understand why more lender's aren't requiring home owners to escrow the taxes, that way they are sure the taxes are paid on time.

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 01, 2014 at 11:19:18 pm     #