Toledo Talk

Immigration: What am I missing here?

I'm well educated, experienced, and consider myself to be generally level headed. But for the life of me, I do not understand the on-going debate about immigration, illegal or otherwise. If they're illegal....then they're illegal. Not welcome. No bienvenido. Throw whatever resources you need to prevent illegal immigration. But we (businesses , our economy, and melting pot trumpeteers) really need them and/or want them, then change change what constitutes "legal" immigrant, make it work (administratively), and let them in. Then you can talk about entitlements, rights, restrictions etc. But not until they are "legal". Doesn't that seem simple? Why do people argue about this? This isn't about limiting access to the "land of opportunity". This is about legal vs illegal. My ancestors came over on a boat. And were processed, etc. "Legalized". Why should that not still apply? What is the debate all about?

created by BulldogBuckeye on May 28, 2014 at 12:43:01 pm     Comments: 70

source      versions


Comments ... #

I cannot speak for your ancestors, but my ancestors did not have to deal with a convoluted, bureaucratic immigration system in which a costly immigration lawyer is needed to make sure all paperwork is properly completed.

My ancestors - mostly Irish, German, and eastern Europeans - experienced little in the way of a "system." They showed up on a boat, and immigration "processing" was handled on a local level. There was no significant federal role until the Page Act of 1875 and the 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act. Before that time immigration was a relatively simple process with few requirements.

Also: many "illegal" immigrants are people who were once "legal" but became "illegal" by doing something like failing to file a visa extension on time. Visa overstayers and technical violations of the Border Crossing Card make up the majority of "illegal" immigration.

The problem of immigration reform is complex and requires a comprehensive solution that - IMHO - needs to provide reasonable solutions for people who are in these "illegal" categories but who could be contributing "legal" citizens with a realistic (and relatively inexpensive) path to citizenship while barring the truly "illegal" immigrants (i.e., those who have made no effort to comply and flagrantly flout or ignore the system).

Unfortunately, it is politically popular to be tough on illegal immigrants, while it can be political suicide to look like you are soft on illegal immigration, so do not expect that common sense will visit Washington any time soon.

posted by historymike on May 28, 2014 at 01:20:45 pm     #   1 person liked this

Isn't failing to file a visa extension on time the same as making no effort to comply and flagrantly flouting or ignoring the system?

posted by Mike21 on May 28, 2014 at 02:01:03 pm     #   1 person liked this

Regardless of intentions and lovey feelings, anyone with illegal immigrant status has broken the law in one form or another and should go back to where they came from and start over. It surely isn't fair for anyone currently or recently applied through legal means to enter this country. What's the next law we ignore? Oh wait Obama has already without the authorization to do so changed or delayed large portions of his signature healthcare law. Maybe we should suspend laws on scrappers and the can come rip the pipes out of your house and the gutters off your house.
I will agree that immigration needs to be fixed but there isn't a single testicle or ovary in Washington that will do it and risk their own skin. We tried amnesty under Reagan it was promised to fix the problem, any see any evidence that it did?

posted by MIJeff on May 28, 2014 at 02:18:15 pm     #   1 person liked this

My point regarding ancestors was that they did not just stroll in and start working. There at least was SOMETHING that was required. Emphasis on "simple process with few requirements." If we need the workers.....then why not go back to a simple process with few requirements" and make them documented and ready to work and be taxed and everything else.

Also.....I hear people on one end of the spectrum actually advocating completely open borders for people to come and go as they please because "this is the land of opportunity" blah blah blah.

posted by BulldogBuckeye on May 28, 2014 at 02:19:59 pm     #  

All four of my grandparents came here from Eastern Europe. At the time, you had to be invited to come by a relative who would vouch for you. You had to show that you had some money in your pocket, and that you were free of diseases (principally, an eye disease that was prevalent at the time, and they took your word that you didn't have syphillis).

My grandmother, who was an orphan, had no family members to invite her, so she claimed a "cousin" in upstate NY. He said he could get her a job on the farm where he was working, and they married three months later. That was in 1911.

So, for all those who want to throw out "illegal" aliens and their progeny, I often wonder if that would include my mom, her 93-year-old sister, and my numerous cousins. After all, my grandmother lied to get into the country!

posted by Anniecski on May 28, 2014 at 02:30:20 pm     #   1 person liked this

According to the law, you, your mother, aunt and cousins are all US citizens if you were all born in this country. According to the same law, your grandmother was a criminal - just because she never got caught doesn't make her any less guilty. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, but it is the law.

posted by Mike21 on May 28, 2014 at 02:51:17 pm     #   2 people liked this

Why the laws need to be changed to something better and then enforced, they should be enforcing what we have now, if they dont like it then change them.

posted by MIJeff on May 28, 2014 at 03:14:53 pm     #  

BulldogBuckeye posted at 02:19:59 PM on May 28, 2014:

My point regarding ancestors was that they did not just stroll in and start working. There at least was SOMETHING that was required. Emphasis on "simple process with few requirements." If we need the workers.....then why not go back to a simple process with few requirements" and make them documented and ready to work and be taxed and everything else.

Also.....I hear people on one end of the spectrum actually advocating completely open borders for people to come and go as they please because "this is the land of opportunity" blah blah blah.

Sorry: when you asked questions like "What is the debate all about?" I assumed that you wanted to understand something about the debate, which is why I offered a summation of the pro-reform position.

My bad - you really just wanted to validate your own opinion. Carry on, friend.

posted by historymike on May 28, 2014 at 03:37:16 pm     #   7 people liked this

Mike21 posted at 02:01:03 PM on May 28, 2014:

Isn't failing to file a visa extension on time the same as making no effort to comply and flagrantly flouting or ignoring the system?

Not any more than failing to renew your driver's license makes you "illegal." The difference is that people who get into the "illegal" immigration category in this way do not have as easy of a time as a person who is late renewing a driver's license.

Keep in mind, too, that English is a second language for many immigrants. Imagine trying to understand the immigration system when you already struggle with English.

posted by historymike on May 28, 2014 at 03:41:15 pm     #   3 people liked this

MIJeff posted at 03:14:53 PM on May 28, 2014:

Why the laws need to be changed to something better and then enforced, they should be enforcing what we have now, if they dont like it then change them.

Uh, dude? This argument is kinda circular.

posted by historymike on May 28, 2014 at 03:43:24 pm     #   2 people liked this

Anniecski posted at 02:30:20 PM on May 28, 2014:

All four of my grandparents came here from Eastern Europe. At the time, you had to be invited to come by a relative who would vouch for you. You had to show that you had some money in your pocket, and that you were free of diseases (principally, an eye disease that was prevalent at the time, and they took your word that you didn't have syphillis).

My grandmother, who was an orphan, had no family members to invite her, so she claimed a "cousin" in upstate NY. He said he could get her a job on the farm where he was working, and they married three months later. That was in 1911.

So, for all those who want to throw out "illegal" aliens and their progeny, I often wonder if that would include my mom, her 93-year-old sister, and my numerous cousins. After all, my grandmother lied to get into the country!

Anniescki: how can you hold your head up knowing your ancestors are BORDER-JUMPING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS?!?!?!

Must keep you awake at night.

:-)

posted by historymike on May 28, 2014 at 03:45:08 pm     #   4 people liked this

By not renewing your license you forfeit your driving privilege. By not filing a visa extension you forfeit your privilege of being allowed to stay in this country. If immigrants understand our language enough to properly fill out and qualify for a visa, they certainly should understand the responsibility of filling out the visa extension and the consequences of not doing so. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. This applies to all US citizens so why shouldn't it apply to all immigrants?

posted by Mike21 on May 28, 2014 at 03:57:09 pm     #   1 person liked this

Uh, dude? Losing your ability to drive a car is a lot less onerous than, you know, being forced to pack up your belongings and leave the country.

Scenario A (fail to renew license and lose driving privileges): you catch the bus or bum a ride from a friend.

Scenario B (fail to renew a visa and become an "illegal" alien): everything you have worked for might be jeopardized, you are subject to detention and deportation, and your family might be separated.

Kinda different outcomes, no?

posted by historymike on May 28, 2014 at 04:08:14 pm     #   2 people liked this

Uh, dude? If everything you have worked for might be jeopardized and you could be subject to detention and deportation and your family might by separated - wouldn't it be prudent to make sure you renew your visa? Of course they are different outcomes - you are the one who made the comparison of the "illegals" who don't renew their license to the ones who don't renew their visas. I simply pointed out what the law says happens when you don't do either. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but is the law.

posted by Mike21 on May 28, 2014 at 04:20:10 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Keep in mind, too, that English is a second language for many immigrants. Imagine trying to understand the immigration system when you already struggle with English."

Heck, I struggle with English.

Yet, they somehow maintain a disproportionate ability to open restaurants in Toledo.

posted by justread on May 28, 2014 at 04:22:24 pm     #   1 person liked this

Also: there is no penalty for failing to renew a license (as long as you do not drive) but failure to renew something like a visa or a green card (or even failing to keep on your person said documentation) can result in being charged with a misdemeanor.

You know, the kind of charge that stays on your permanent record and reduces your ability to get a good job or (here's the zinger) renew your visa or green card?

Or what about people whose "illegal" parents brought them here as children? Want to deport all of them because their parents did not follow the rules? Some of these kids were infants when they came.

And what economic effects would the sudden deportation of millions of "illegal" immigrants have on the American economy? At the very least, this would be something of a financial shock, and conceivably it could cause serious damage to the U.S. economy.

posted by historymike on May 28, 2014 at 04:26:49 pm     #  

Just for grins, take a look at Part I and Part II of the basic paperwork that immigrants need to complete to enter the country.

I suspect that my barely literate and impoverished ancestors would have struggled with this form. Especially the Irish ones. :-)

posted by historymike on May 28, 2014 at 04:33:15 pm     #  

Historymike said: Anniescki: how can you hold your head up knowing your ancestors are BORDER-JUMPING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS?!?!?!

I know, I know. But her czarnina was the best thing in the world, so what could I do?

posted by Anniecski on May 28, 2014 at 04:36:37 pm     #   2 people liked this

Back in the day a lot of people never got naturalized and were here as aliens and claimed as such on census records. I know a few of mine started off in PA and then moved to Rossford following Edward Ford when he moved here to start the Edward Ford plate glass co.

posted by lfrost2125 on May 28, 2014 at 04:41:15 pm     #  

historymike posted at 04:33:15 PM on May 28, 2014:

Just for grins, take a look at Part I and Part II of the basic paperwork that immigrants need to complete to enter the country.

I suspect that my barely literate and impoverished ancestors would have struggled with this form. Especially the Irish ones. :-)

Seriously? You think that form is hard to fill out? Looks a lot like any job application that employers make you fill out (but for the relative section). I do not at all think that is onerous or excessive.

And what economic effects would the sudden deportation of millions of "illegal" immigrants have on the American economy? At the very least, this would be something of a financial shock, and conceivably it could cause serious damage to the U.S. economy.

And what about the cost of providing services to illegal immigrants? And what is the net outflow of money that is going back to illegal immigrants home countries/families? And what about the totally bogus unemployment numbers that the administration is trying to float in order to get the economy to 'needing' more workers? Really? We have never had so many adults out of the work force.

Look, I feel for the ones who were brought here as children and thru no fault of their own are now here illegally, but to give all illegal immigrants citizenship, lock, stock and barrel, is wrong and denies the damage that has already been done to our economy and government budgets by providing services to them (schooling, medical services, welfare, etc.)

Keep in mind, too, that English is a second language for many immigrants. Imagine trying to understand the immigration system when you already struggle with English.

I know I'm going to get blasted for this one - you're in the US dude, learn to speak the language.

Unfortunately, it is politically popular to be tough on illegal immigrants, while it can be political suicide to look like you are soft on illegal immigration, so do not expect that common sense will visit Washington any time soon.

I don't see this view at all; in fact I see it as the opposite - mean old Republicans for opposing legalization and nice-nice dems for wanting to get all of those new voters ... I mean help the poor illegals.

I cannot speak for your ancestors, but my ancestors did not have to deal with a convoluted, bureaucratic immigration system in which a costly immigration lawyer is needed to make sure all paperwork is properly completed.

I cannot speak for your ancestors, but my ancestors did not have to deal with a convoluted, bureaucratic tax system, business regulation system, EPA regulation, OSHA, health care system, blah, blah, blah. Life is not what it used to be. We have regulation plaguing all of us. Why should immigration be any different?

Immigration back in the day was before we had a social safety net that was so extensive. Back in the day, immigrants were expected to provide for themselves and their families or fail. Now, if they fail it is an added burden on the rest of us. If they don't even try, we just say that's okay, we'll take care of you. We can't afford more of that.

I probably should just hit delete and not post but oh well ...

posted by MrsArcher on May 28, 2014 at 05:43:58 pm     #   4 people liked this

How would I be treated in various countries if I showed up with a smile and sandals speaking English only?

posted by justread on May 28, 2014 at 06:09:31 pm     #   2 people liked this

justread posted at 06:09:31 PM on May 28, 2014:

How would I be treated in various countries if I showed up with a smile and sandals speaking English only?

Depends. Plenty of countries are more than happy to accomodate your English and accept your tourism dollars. China is one:

http://www.ebeijing.gov.cn/Elementals/eBeijing_Neighbourhood/t1219021.htm

posted by Sohio on May 28, 2014 at 07:01:26 pm     #  

In Canada, you have to pass a Federal Skilled Worker Program test which measures the chances of you being a positive contributor to Canadian society. You fail, you get deported.

And that's Canada.

posted by justread on May 28, 2014 at 07:03:45 pm     #   2 people liked this

China is building more walls and rewards whistleblowers.

This thread isn't about tourism, after all.

posted by justread on May 28, 2014 at 07:08:28 pm     #   2 people liked this

justread posted at 06:09:31 PM on May 28, 2014:

How would I be treated in various countries if I showed up with a smile and sandals speaking English only?

About the same way you were treated last time you were in Juarez... or Miami.

posted by madjack on May 28, 2014 at 07:37:44 pm     #   2 people liked this

madjack posted at 07:37:44 PM on May 28, 2014:
justread posted at 06:09:31 PM on May 28, 2014:

How would I be treated in various countries if I showed up with a smile and sandals speaking English only?

About the same way you were treated last time you were in Juarez... or Miami.

Best laugh of the day.

posted by historymike on May 28, 2014 at 07:46:15 pm     #  

madjack posted at 07:37:44 PM on May 28, 2014:
justread posted at 06:09:31 PM on May 28, 2014:

How would I be treated in various countries if I showed up with a smile and sandals speaking English only?

About the same way you were treated last time you were in Juarez... or Miami.

That's why they invented Ft. Lauderdale.

posted by justread on May 28, 2014 at 07:49:19 pm     #  

And what economic effects would the sudden deportation of millions of "illegal" immigrants have on the American economy?

It would cause unemployment to drop and allow the government to shift a part of the deficit from social services to military spending.

The current immigration system is far too complex and takes too long to conclude. A person applies for a green card, then the waiting begins, punctuated by interactions with a bureaucracy that is designed to obstruct a desirable person from becoming a citizen of the United States.

My friend Manual, who is from Mexico City, wants to become a citizen. He'd like to open his own business, make a few dollars, put his kids through school and eventually retire. He's a good man, but because he's law abiding and honest, he'll probably never make it. Now if he were a gangster, he'd likely be living in Los Angeles and classed as a disenfranchised Latin American in need of social services. He'd know how to work the bureaucracy for maximum gain, and he'd probably do okay for himself. But that's not what the man wants.

HistoryMike's point about the bureaucracy in the good old days is well taken, and the current system should be reduced to something that is easily recognizable and possible to navigate by any adult. It won't be, but it should be.

In my mind, anyone who can live here for one year without a violent crime or felony conviction, is gainfully employed (including self-employed) and who can speak, read and write English at an 8th grade level is someone I'd like to have as a citizen. Being able to answer a few question about U.S. history and geography would be a nice bonus, but I'm a whole lot more concerned about the person's day to day life than I am about whether he can name all the presidents (I can't, by the way) or tell me what the War of 1812 was really all about.

posted by madjack on May 28, 2014 at 07:57:20 pm     #   6 people liked this

Annie and everyone else who talks about how their ancestors came here with limited hassle and therefore why shouldn't the next wave be allowed in are missing a very important point...the evolution of the social safety network paid for by the taxpayer.

I would say that as a nation we can be in favor of lax immigration laws and open borders or we can have an extensive social safety network that is rapidly moving from cradle to grave.

We simply cannot have both. The new "unwashed masses" and the "tired and the poor" are overwhelming school systems, emergency rooms, public assistance programs, etc.

The emphasis on chain immigration and "family reunification," the brainchild of Ted Kennedy aka "The Heroic Night swimmer of Chappaquiddick," is also lunacy.

As it stands now, it would make it easier for an 80 grandmother with Alzheimers to immigrate into the US to "reunite" with her green card holding domestic servant children than it would be for a German physicist with who has a PhD but unfortunately no relatives in the country. No weight is given to potential earnings or contributions to US society other than one visa program which allows a green card for people who come here and start a business that employs (I think) 10 people.

posted by Dappling2 on May 28, 2014 at 08:23:58 pm     #   1 person liked this

Madjack wrote:

"[People without] a violent crime or felony conviction, gainfully employed (including self-employed) and who can speak, read and write English at an 8th grade level is someone I'd like to have as a citizen. Being able to answer a few question about U.S. history and geography would be a nice bonus."

Madjack my friend...are you suggesting revoking the citizenship of perhaps 30% of the population of our fine city? :-)

posted by Dappling2 on May 28, 2014 at 08:26:21 pm     #   1 person liked this

Arrest the CEOs of the companies that hire illegal immigrants and maybe there wouldn't be so much demand.

posted by SensorG on May 28, 2014 at 09:16:02 pm     #   2 people liked this

justread posted at 07:08:28 PM on May 28, 2014:

China is building more walls and rewards whistleblowers.

This thread isn't about tourism, after all.

You asked. I answered.

posted by Sohio on May 28, 2014 at 10:24:04 pm     #  

Dappling I don't believe anyone said it should be as easy as it was for our ancestors. Most that I read were just comparing to how it was then to how it is now.

posted by lfrost2125 on May 28, 2014 at 10:36:34 pm     #  

I'm guessing most of you never lived in SoCal, Texas, Arizona or New Mexico. This conversation is very different there. Illegal Immigration isn't as black or white as it sounds-it's an attempt to escape abject poverty for a promise of, less poverty. I have known many illegals in my life. I can't recall any asking for anything. They work hard, they stay out of trouble and would gladly pay taxes if they were recognized. This notion that they're on the dole is ludicrous. There is no safety net where most of them come from. On some level, this is a basic human rights issue. The bigger elephant in the room is the way our neighbor to the South runs their country. Mexico is a total mess right now, and I don't blame anyone for trying to escape it. Those border jumpers only want to work hard and provide for their families. Morgan Spurlock-Inside Man- did a great episode on this topic http://insideman.blogs.cnn.com/2013/07/11/morgan-spurlock-struggles-to-meet-orange-tub-quota/

Forget the idea that unemployment figures drop, if we deport all of the illegals. More like strawberries become $20/lb. Illegals are so deeply woven into our economy right now that the only practical and moral thing to do is try to figure how to give them rights and citizenship. We are not overcrowded. They add to the economy. They have as much right be here as we do. Getting there first doesn't make anyone righteous, despite what the bumper stickers at truck stops may tell you.

posted by ahmahler on May 29, 2014 at 09:01:21 am     #   9 people liked this

Broad sweeping generalizations are broad sweeping generalizations, regardless of whether one's anecdotal experience is based on one state or another.

I have a friend who lives close enough to the border in Arizona to experience very bad things due to certain illegals. Doesn't make for a stronger or weaker case.

The border is porous and that's a problem. Very, very bad people can get into Mexico from the south and then the US. And that's a problem, regardless of the cost of strawberries.

All sorts of countries are a mess, and ours is too. Warm fuzzy notions of hand holding with foreign criminals who invade our country in small batches doesn't solve anything.

Meanwhile a US Marine accidentally crosses into Mexico and all hell breaks loose.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 09:18:41 am     #   4 people liked this

ahmahler said:

"They have as much right be here as we do."

Really? People who enter our country illegally have as much right to be here as the rest of us?

Wow, just wow.

If the reason to grant them all citizenship is truly because we need them to do the jobs many Americans won't, then perhaps we need to make it a bit tougher for those Americans to get on and remain on unemployment, welfare, SSDI, etc.

The entire "grant them all amnesty and citizenship" movement is driven by two powerful groups:

Democrats who figure they'll succeed in adding 10 to 20 million more voters to their roles and the US Chamber of Crony Capitalism who wants their members to be able to legally hire workers on the cheap.

We continue to read about the record number of people in this country who are not employed and who have given up and dropped out of the workforce - which is why they are no longer counted in the gum't's phony unemployment numbers. Yet, the vast majority of those unemployed and/or out of the work force all appear to still have a roof over their heads, heat and/or AC, cars to drive - and $$ to fill the tanks at nearly $4/gallon, smart phones, etc.

What's wrong with that picture?

I personally know of many able bodied folks who could work but our "safety net" (which has become more of a hammock) makes it too easy for them to remain in the wagon while the rest of us pull it.

posted by Foodie on May 29, 2014 at 09:19:35 am     #   1 person liked this

How can we as a people look at the unemployed black youth and the obscene incarceration rates in this country and advocate for giving the rights and jobs that we deny our own black children to people from other countries who climb a fence in the dark to steal their futures.

What are the young people here supposed to do? Sneak into Canada? Things are so messed up in this country that no compassionate, "moral" Canadian would ever blame them, right? And they have just as much right as those Canadians who "got there first" to be full-fledged Canadians with all rights and privileges.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 11:55:00 am     #   1 person liked this

Democrats who figure they'll succeed in adding 10 to 20 million more voters to their roles and the US Chamber of Crony Capitalism who wants their members to be able to legally hire workers on the cheap.

Ummm...not to nit-pick, but I notice you left out the prevailing party affiliation of the latter group, there. Any particular reason?

posted by Sohio on May 29, 2014 at 01:01:49 pm     #  

Applying the Sesame Street Rule (What thing is not like the other): one group was specifically interested in partisan voting/voters, while the other group was interested in non-partisan cheap workers. Maybe that has something to do with it?

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 01:06:45 pm     #   1 person liked this

But the second group votes, and the people they vote for are sitting on their hands. And the people they voted for in 1986 enacted a rather large amnesty program. So, do we see where there may be some balanced culpability?

posted by Sohio on May 29, 2014 at 01:23:58 pm     #  

They should vote against the people they voted for in 1986.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 02:45:14 pm     #  

Perhaps. Although, in the most high-profile example of that, it would be hard for them to do that anyway. He's term-limited. And retired. And dead.

posted by Sohio on May 29, 2014 at 02:49:52 pm     #   2 people liked this

Sohio posted at 01:01:49 PM on May 29, 2014:

Democrats who figure they'll succeed in adding 10 to 20 million more voters to their roles and the US Chamber of Crony Capitalism who wants their members to be able to legally hire workers on the cheap.

Ummm...not to nit-pick, but I notice you left out the prevailing party affiliation of the latter group, there. Any particular reason?

None whatsoever. IMHO, the vast majority of elected democrats and republicans are nothing but a bunch of self serving assholes.

I pretty much detest both parties equally these days.

posted by Foodie on May 29, 2014 at 03:50:42 pm     #  

Sohio posted at 02:49:52 PM on May 29, 2014:

Perhaps. Although, in the most high-profile example of that, it would be hard for them to do that anyway. He's term-limited. And retired. And dead.

Then there's Marcy.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 03:56:08 pm     #   1 person liked this

Um...yeah...something like that.

posted by Sohio on May 29, 2014 at 04:14:01 pm     #  

Really? People who enter our country illegally have as much right to be here as the rest of us?

Wow, just wow.

If the reason to grant them all citizenship is truly because we need them to do the jobs many Americans won't, then perhaps we need to make it a bit tougher for those Americans to get on and remain on unemployment, welfare, SSDI, etc.

Foodie-Leave politics out-what is the reason you wouldn't grant illegals amnesty or open the borders? I think you're misinformed if you think immigration translates to a greater burden. Is it because you are afraid of there not being enough jobs? How about Growing the overall economy AND tax base? There is a pretty overwhelming amount of economic data suggesting that doing these things adds to the economy , increase demand for housing. It could add $1.2 trillion in deficit reduction within 20 years. These are recent bi-partisan studies coming up with quite a bit of sound forecasting.

posted by ahmahler on May 29, 2014 at 07:35:06 pm     #   1 person liked this

Ahmahler..I usually disagree with you. However, you and I aren't that far apart on this one.

I am not against immigration per se. I think it actually needs to be greatly expanded for the reasons that you mention.

However I am 100% for "means testing." My wife, who is a nurse, related the story to me where a great-uncle and grandparents were green carded into the country to be "reunified" with relatives here. The grandmother immediately began dialysis treatment on the US taxpayers dime to the tune of $100k/year.

On the flip side, I spend some time in Europe and met quite a few young, ambitious, degreed people who were dying to emigrate to the US. They were completely unable because they couldn't get a green card. These are the people who would grow the economy and the tax base yet are passed over in favor of the 80 year old grandmother on dialysis.

Open the doors, but do it selectively. Letting thousands of unskilled, uneducated peasants who in many cases cannot even speak Spanish, much less English, is not going to "grow the tax base."

On the other hand, college degree in engineering? Let them in. Math majors? Let them in. Medical background? Let them in. Maybe come up with a point system that would reward education, etc.

Europe is sclerotic. There are thousands of young people from Spain, England, France, Ireland, Poland, etc. who would be net contributors but cannot come here.

posted by Dappling2 on May 29, 2014 at 08:24:29 pm     #  

Dappling2 posted at 08:24:29 PM on May 29, 2014:

Ahmahler..I usually disagree with you. However, you and I aren't that far apart on this one.

I am not against immigration per se. I think it actually needs to be greatly expanded for the reasons that you mention.

However I am 100% for "means testing." My wife, who is a nurse, related the story to me where a great-uncle and grandparents were green carded into the country to be "reunified" with relatives here. The grandmother immediately began dialysis treatment on the US taxpayers dime to the tune of $100k/year.

On the flip side, I spend some time in Europe and met quite a few young, ambitious, degreed people who were dying to emigrate to the US. They were completely unable because they couldn't get a green card. These are the people who would grow the economy and the tax base yet are passed over in favor of the 80 year old grandmother on dialysis.

Open the doors, but do it selectively. Letting thousands of unskilled, uneducated peasants who in many cases cannot even speak Spanish, much less English, is not going to "grow the tax base."

On the other hand, college degree in engineering? Let them in. Math majors? Let them in. Medical background? Let them in. Maybe come up with a point system that would reward education, etc.

Europe is sclerotic. There are thousands of young people from Spain, England, France, Ireland, Poland, etc. who would be net contributors but cannot come here.

Just like the Statue of Liberty says:

"Bring me your engineers, your math majors...maybe a couple of medical-type people, that'd be nice...hold off on your huddled masses in need of dialysis, though, got plenty of those already..."

posted by Sohio on May 29, 2014 at 08:55:45 pm     #   3 people liked this

It's adorable that some people think that you can leave "politics" out of the issue of who gets what; where, and when.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 09:01:54 pm     #   4 people liked this

Just like the Statue of Liberty says:

"Bring me your engineers, your math majors...maybe a couple of medical-type people, that'd be nice...hold off on your huddled masses in need of dialysis, though, got plenty of those already..."

Sniff, that part about the math majors always gets me...

Ahmahler..I usually disagree with you. However, you and I aren't that far apart on this one.

agreed-we usually disagree. I think we do here too. No litmus test. The actual Statue of liberty sort of stuff. The stuff that made this country great. The idea that we should be the world leaders in doing what is right, not being rich. Open the borders, they don't have cooties.

posted by ahmahler on May 29, 2014 at 09:02:41 pm     #   2 people liked this

ahmahler posted at 07:35:06 PM on May 29, 2014:
Really? People who enter our country illegally have as much right to be here as the rest of us?

Wow, just wow.

If the reason to grant them all citizenship is truly because we need them to do the jobs many Americans won't, then perhaps we need to make it a bit tougher for those Americans to get on and remain on unemployment, welfare, SSDI, etc.

Foodie-Leave politics out-what is the reason you wouldn't grant illegals amnesty or open the borders? I think you're misinformed if you think immigration translates to a greater burden. Is it because you are afraid of there not being enough jobs? How about Growing the overall economy AND tax base? There is a pretty overwhelming amount of economic data suggesting that doing these things adds to the economy , increase demand for housing. It could add $1.2 trillion in deficit reduction within 20 years. These are recent bi-partisan studies coming up with quite a bit of sound forecasting.

For one, in case you haven't noticed, EVERYTHING is all about politics.

But, I'd be curious to know -why do you think other countries don't have open borders?

posted by Foodie on May 29, 2014 at 09:03:51 pm     #   1 person liked this

Sohio posted at 08:55:45 PM on May 29, 2014:
Dappling2 posted at 08:24:29 PM on May 29, 2014:

Ahmahler..I usually disagree with you. However, you and I aren't that far apart on this one.

I am not against immigration per se. I think it actually needs to be greatly expanded for the reasons that you mention.

However I am 100% for "means testing." My wife, who is a nurse, related the story to me where a great-uncle and grandparents were green carded into the country to be "reunified" with relatives here. The grandmother immediately began dialysis treatment on the US taxpayers dime to the tune of $100k/year.

On the flip side, I spend some time in Europe and met quite a few young, ambitious, degreed people who were dying to emigrate to the US. They were completely unable because they couldn't get a green card. These are the people who would grow the economy and the tax base yet are passed over in favor of the 80 year old grandmother on dialysis.

Open the doors, but do it selectively. Letting thousands of unskilled, uneducated peasants who in many cases cannot even speak Spanish, much less English, is not going to "grow the tax base."

On the other hand, college degree in engineering? Let them in. Math majors? Let them in. Medical background? Let them in. Maybe come up with a point system that would reward education, etc.

Europe is sclerotic. There are thousands of young people from Spain, England, France, Ireland, Poland, etc. who would be net contributors but cannot come here.

Just like the Statue of Liberty says:

"Bring me your engineers, your math majors...maybe a couple of medical-type people, that'd be nice...hold off on your huddled masses in need of dialysis, though, got plenty of those already..."

And women didn't use to be citizens, and black people were "chattle."

To survive, a society must adapt for the challenges of the times. Those times called for "open" immigration. (Although it wasn't.)
Those times also called for 12 kids, so they could help support the household.

Our times have created more than our share of those who must be carried, and few with the ability to carry them.

I know, it sucks, and it isn't touchy feely. But these are our times, and we must make decisions and take actions that suit them, not the nostalgia of the past.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 09:05:09 pm     #   1 person liked this

ahmahler posted at 09:02:41 PM on May 29, 2014:
Just like the Statue of Liberty says:

"Bring me your engineers, your math majors...maybe a couple of medical-type people, that'd be nice...hold off on your huddled masses in need of dialysis, though, got plenty of those already..."

Sniff, that part about the math majors always gets me...

Ahmahler..I usually disagree with you. However, you and I aren't that far apart on this one.

agreed-we usually disagree. I think we do here too. No litmus test. The actual Statue of liberty sort of stuff. The stuff that made this country great. The idea that we should be the world leaders in doing what is right, not being rich. Open the borders, they don't have cooties.

If you represent the youth, we're totally fucked.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 09:24:01 pm     #   2 people liked this

I agree. Ahmahler my Sesame Street watching "we are the world" friend, when Emma Lazarus penned those words, the US was an agrarian society in need of labor..particularly unskilled.

Times have changed. We have high unemployment, but jobs go unfilled for lack of skilled workers.

Countries are traditionally "closed border" countries. You are getting misty-eyed about a particular time in a particular country with a particular need.

posted by Dappling2 on May 29, 2014 at 09:30:43 pm     #  

The Americans who were born between 1900 and 1935 saved the world and our ass. They did their best to pass on the wisdom that they gained from having to work so hard and build so much.

We'll never regain the greatness that they earned and fought for because of the weenies who came after. I never understood why my dad hated the hippies so much.

But it's starting to become clear. People used to understand that life would offer good and bad, and that we needed to be ready for both.

The soccer/barney/no red pens/everybody's a winner generation is unprepared to make the hard decisions that our times demand.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 09:35:35 pm     #   5 people liked this

Meh, lazy arguments. These Sesame Street/hippie/Barney etc characterizations have no gravitas.

What's the problem? Why don't we let Mexicans flood in? What happens if we do? Let's have an actual conversation about the reality of all of the situations, how it affects you, how it affects your fellow man,how it's easy to hand down judgement on poor people that have no political allies. What do we aspire to be? Why are we a United States? Sure, our history is messy and complicated, but the reason we have been successful is because we have always been a place people aspired to go to. We are built upon the foundation of the PROMISE of what the US is supposed to. Those people that aspired to get here, lived the American dream because they were great, took great risk and it made the US a great place.now we're all acting like we came over on the mayflower. When we become a country club, people may not aspire to be here anymore. When that day comes, we're really screwed, then the flow starts going the other way. It has nothing to do with politics, but we let those define our sensibilities much to our own peril.

posted by ahmahler on May 29, 2014 at 09:48:35 pm     #   4 people liked this

"we have always been a place people aspired to go to"
Which people? When? Why? And how has the curve evolved?

Look into the demographics of all the immigration waves, compare them to the socio-economic and population factors of the years involved, and get back to us, Skippy.

You are calling people "lazy" who have walked the walk and done the work, simply because you don't agree with them.

People wanted to come here because we presented a bullshit country club fašade, dude. The biggest bullshit PR campaign in the history of the world fueled the exports that funded the "American dream." (And the war machine that backed it up.) Repeat until the 90s. Go figure out what changed, and who supplies the world's goods and why. And who wants to be here and why, compared to back then.

You may want to get your history, sociology, and poli-sci credit money back.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 10:20:53 pm     #   2 people liked this

The stupid have outbred the smart. We'll never recover.

And THAT is why the people of significant means have been fleeing this country faster than the indigents have been jumping the fence.

But that's ok. 29 year olds will have a bike ride fundraiser to fix everything.

posted by justread on May 29, 2014 at 10:24:59 pm     #   5 people liked this

The Americans who were born between 1900 and 1935 saved the world and our ass. They did their best to pass on the wisdom that they gained from having to work so hard and build so much. We'll never regain the greatness that they earned and fought for because of the weenies who came after.

Need a hanky, justread? If it makes you feel any better, those people also formed a LOT of labor unions. So, you know...they weren't ALL good.

posted by Sohio on May 29, 2014 at 10:36:34 pm     #  

Look at it this way, we are getting the dregs of the Mexican people that are being driven out of Mexico by poverty or their criminal backgrounds, Mexico don't want these people. They can come here with a promise of jobs or free welfare money, education, healthcare at our emergency rooms. Did you want to know why healthcare (not health insurance) costs rise so much? hospitals have to pass on the costs they lose from providing treatment that is never paid for from these poor souls filling our emergency rooms.
If they ever get their head out of their asses and look to actually do whats right regardless of cost to their own careers or fortunes we might just survive this. There are so many things that could be done but wont be because politicians only care about themselves always have, always will. The entire immigration system should be overhauled and entrance should be based on 1 things.
1. If we let this person(s) into the country will they benefit or hurt the country.

posted by MIJeff on May 29, 2014 at 10:39:50 pm     #  

justread posted at 10:24:59 PM on May 29, 2014:

The stupid have outbred the smart. We'll never recover.

And THAT is why the people of significant means have been fleeing this country faster than the indigents have been jumping the fence.

But that's ok. 29 year olds will have a bike ride fundraiser to fix everything.

amahler: in case this is your first time, let me welcome you to the Gish-Galloping world known as "debate with justread."

It's a strange world indeed, but kind of a hoot once you get the hang of it.

A typical discussion with justread usually goes something like this (this is a dramatized archetype, mind you):

justread: "If you ask me, Three Dog Night did their best work when James Taylor was their lead singer!"

You: "But justread, no man named James Taylor was ever a member of Three Dog Night."

[you produce a link or other such substantiation of your rebuttal]

justread: "Yeah...well...if Mama Cass had shared that sandwich with Karen Carpenter, they would BOTH be alive today!"

Then, as you stare with your mouth open, in disbelief of the nonsensical path the discussion has just taken, justread will use your stunned silence to claim victory.

You'll lose many debates with justread this way, at least on the surface. But, once you get used to it, you might find you rather enjoy it.

Forgive me if you're seasoned in this already...

posted by Sohio on May 29, 2014 at 10:45:26 pm     #   1 person liked this

Sohio-Many Thanks-Sage advice. I thought I learned not to debate justread as he is never seemingly 100% serious, but there were moments during this thread where he seemed to want to have a discussion with actual opinions. I should have known better. James Taylor analogies are always appreciated.

I do, however, very much like the idea that I am associated with 29yr old bohemian/ hippie bicyclists trying to save the world by bicycling.

posted by ahmahler on May 29, 2014 at 11:06:18 pm     #  

I prefer Livingston Taylor. He's a Berklee hippie, as opposed to a Berkeley Hippie, but he knows how to raise money.

posted by justread on May 30, 2014 at 06:33:18 am     #  

Holy crap. All criminal aliens are not benevolent?

http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp

posted by justread on May 30, 2014 at 06:43:13 am     #  

So start by denying social services to everyone who is in the country illegally. Follow up with a zero-tolerance policy for everyone who hires a worker who is in the country illegally that includes mandatory jail time.

Fix the system so that those immigrants who want to work can be documented and start paying taxes without having to jump through a series of flaming hoops.

This seems like a no-brainer to me, but since it doesn't allow for the re-election of a (insert political party here) incumbent over a (insert political party here) challenger, I see no possibility of it ever happening.

posted by madjack on May 30, 2014 at 09:24:59 am     #   1 person liked this

You sir, are obviously a country-club, exclusionary, white-bread, unsympathetic, callous, unfair, brown person hating, liberty killing, mean bastard.

You probably can't even play Kumbaya on the acoustic.

posted by justread on May 30, 2014 at 10:44:49 am     #  

The lack of musical talent does not make someone a bad person.

And You, Sir, are equally obvious as a water logged, rum swilling, gold chain wearing free enterprise loving barbarian whose ideas of freedom involve capitalist imperialism and inverse compensation for trampled classes.

Given a map and a compass I'll bet you couldn't find your way home from the middle of the lake.

posted by madjack on May 30, 2014 at 12:09:01 pm     #  

Wait... which lake?

posted by justread on May 30, 2014 at 12:48:31 pm     #  

justread posted at 06:43:13 AM on May 30, 2014:

Holy crap. All criminal aliens are not benevolent?

http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp

1. Who said they were?

2. There might be a slight distinction, if not in definition then at least in practice, between a "criminal" and someone engaging in illegal activity. For instance, a person who robs a bank is obviously a criminal...whereas, to use an example that has already been cited here, a person who drives a car with a license that they forgot to renew is technically doing so illegally. Refusing to differentiate between the two is a bit disingenuous, and is, fortunately, not something our legal system tends to do. Not by design, anyway.

3. As usual, you're using a logical fallacy--this time, the Association Fallacy, and perhaps appeal to fear, to boot--to drum up support for your side...whatever side you happen to be on (as is your habit, your "side" is something you've not really made 100% clear, all you've offered is vague jingo and platitudes, so you can continue to have your fun without the burden of having to commit, even cursorily, to any tangible principle). By your logic, I could easily produce a list of people who have been killed by fire as proof that the human race must work to eliminate fire (even as my gas-powered water heater uses fire to make hot water for my house...)

4. Not all members and/or representatives of any subset of humanity are benevolent, and you know it.

5. "Just an old fashioned love song...playing on the radio..."

#5; I just thought I'd throw that out there, to give you lead on something you can obfuscate with. But you can freestyle it, if you'd like...Liv Taylor was a good one! Ironic, too, since I think of you every time I hear "Going Around One More Time."

posted by Sohio on May 31, 2014 at 12:48:25 am     #  

I think you are on to something with the fire thing.

If we can save just one life.

posted by justread on May 31, 2014 at 05:34:21 am     #   3 people liked this