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GM and Ford "On the Verge of Bankruptcy,"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=asXjYQuEUW4Q&refer=worldwide

GM, Ford `On the Verge of Bankruptcy,' Altman Says (Update2)

By Greg Miles and Caroline Salas

July 22 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co., the two biggest U.S. automakers, have about a 46 percent chance of default within five years, according to Edward Altman, a finance professor at New York University's Stern School of Business.

``Both are in very serious shape and the markets reflect that,'' Altman, the creator of the Z-score mathematical formula that measures bankruptcy risk, said in an interview with Bloomberg Television. The model shows that these companies are ``on the verge of bankruptcy,'' he said.

The Z-scores for GM and Ford give both a bond rating equivalent to a CCC ranking, though GM is in slightly worse condition than Ford, Altman said. GM reported a $38.7 billion loss in 2007, the biggest in its 100-year history, and hasn't posted a profit since 2004. The scores are based on the companies' finances at the end of the first quarter.

Moody's Investors Service said July 15 it may cut GM's Caa1 senior unsecured debt rating because the Detroit-based automaker's plan to raise at least $15 billion by suspending its dividend, cutting management payroll by 20 percent and selling assets may not be enough to offset losses. Standard & Poor's also said in June it may lower GM's B rating. Altman said the plan to raise $15 billion may improve GM's outlook.

Ford, based in Dearborn, Michigan, is rated Caa1 by Moody's and B by S&P, which said in June that Ford's rating may also be cut.

Ability to Refinance

``The thing that triggers a default in almost all cases is running out of cash and not being able to refinance,'' Altman said in an interview prior to his television appearance. ``You're not going to go bankrupt as long as you can refinance short-term liabilities. You will go bankrupt if you can't.''

In 2005, Altman said GM had a 47 percent chance of default within five years.

GM Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner said in an interview July 15 that the company has the ability to raise cash, and he called bankruptcy ``a bad idea.'' Ford has said it had access to $40.6 billion in funds as of March 31, including credit lines.

GM's $3 billion of 8.375 percent bonds due in 2033 rose 0.5 cent today to 58.5 cents, according to Trace, the bond-price reporting system of the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority. The debt yields 14.6 percent, or 994 basis points more than similar-maturity Treasuries. A basis point is 0.01 percentage point.

``I would not put money with GM right now because the downside is so great relative to the upside, relative to the yield,'' said Altman, speaking in New York. ``Your downside is probably 60 percent on the debt. The risk reward ratio is pretty poor.''

created by charlatan on Jul 22, 2008 at 10:28:41 pm     Comments: 25

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Comments ... #

This might sound kinda silly, and perhaps not the nicest thing to say in a union-centric town. But if these two do go under, wouldn't it be possible for a new company to spring up that makes cars cheaper?

posted by jshriver on Jul 23, 2008 at 01:13:44 am     #



India is producing a car the size of a SMART car, called the Nano, for US$2500, which gets 53mpg. Wildfire Motors produces one for $5700 which gets 70mpg. And GM and Ford can't produce one of those for any price.

GOOD RIDDANCE TO BAD COMPANIES.

posted by GuestZero on Jul 23, 2008 at 06:40:03 am     #



For generations, Ford and GM have been pretty much, "Buy our stuff, or you're not a good American", and then producing what and how they want.

Maybe it's time they just did what any other business would do - start producing product the customers want to buy at a price that is competitive.

posted by billy on Jul 23, 2008 at 09:36:02 am     #



I've been waiting for a major move like this:

GM's pain hits retirees
Automaker drops health coverage for ex-workers 65 and older, affecting hundreds in Baltimore
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-te.bz.gm16jul16,0,1759120.story
OR
http://tinyurl.com/6jyxnp

posted by GuestZero on Jul 23, 2008 at 10:25:58 am     #



Automakers have forever passed on their costs to the consumer. Giving away the kitchen sink to the unions and letting their executives pocket as much as they can grab. Now that there are no huge tarrifs on foreign car companies, and gas has hit an all time high, they just cant continue to ride the fatted calf to the barbeque. Instead of making crap they are gonna have to really compete and make vehicles that the public will buy. Never did understand how a low skilled factory worker made more money than a high school teacher.

posted by Linecrosser on Jul 23, 2008 at 11:00:42 am     #



Never did understand how a low skilled factory worker made more money than a high school teacher.

Considering that teacher's in a union that's just as catered to as the auto worker's is, that is indeed a good question.

posted by billy on Jul 23, 2008 at 01:46:47 pm     #



QUOTE: "Buy our stuff or you're not a good American"

Well, back in 1996 I bought a new GM car. Soon I found that the final assembly point was in Oshawa, Ontario (since closed). Some time later I needed a new set of tires. Thinking "Firestone is a good domestic tire maker based in Akron, Ohio. So, I got their best 70,000 mile tires. On tiny raised lettering on each tire it read "Made in Brazil".

posted by flinty on Jul 23, 2008 at 02:22:14 pm     #



@guestzero realistically, how big is the market in the US for a car with a 33 horsepower engine?

posted by kmcgilvery on Jul 23, 2008 at 03:13:54 pm     #



Verge of bankruptcy really sounds worse than it is. Many corps and peeps toe the line of bankruptcy daily. Some are in a weight class to laugh of the loan sharks and cancel debt jubilee style.

Luckily for What's Good for GM is good for America and $5 a day Ford, Chrysler was rescued by el gubbermint some almost 30 year agos.

From wiki:
The United States Congress reluctantly passed the "Chrysler Corporation Loan Guarantee Act of 1979" (Public Law 96-185) on December 20, 1979 (signed into law by President Jimmy Carter on January 7, 1980), prodded by Chrysler workers and dealers in every congressional district who feared the loss of their livelihoods. The military then bought thousands of Dodge pickup trucks which entered military service as the Commercial Utility Cargo Vehicle M-880 Series. With such help and a few innovative cars (such as the K-car platform), especially the invention of the minivan concept, Chrysler avoided bankruptcy and slowly recovered.
----
This was set into motion decades ago with consolidation, huge barriers to entry for domestic companies, lack of true innovation (like bigger cup holders), focus on Viagra Trucks and SUVs instead of transportation, also Wall Street pushing external debt as equal to internal financing of expansion to keep profits high....

It's the failure of American management... in operations, finance, and marketing. I think Robert McNamara is their poster child. Failure in focus and execution. 2 for 2.

posted by charlatan on Jul 23, 2008 at 03:15:34 pm     #



Considering that teacher's in a union that's just as catered to as the auto worker's is, that is indeed a good question.

posted by billy on Jul 23, 2008 at 02:46:47 pm #
------------------------------------------------------------------------

BWAHAHAhahaHAHA!!!

posted by Darkseid on Jul 23, 2008 at 03:52:49 pm     #



how big is the market in the US for a car with a 33 horsepower engine?

Who likes to bet? Who bet's there'll be a waiting list for the smallest car they can put out...

Any waiting lists for a GM or Ford product?

posted by billy on Jul 23, 2008 at 04:19:55 pm     #



kmcgilvery said: � Realistically, how big is the market in the US for a car with a 33 horsepower engine? �

Realistically, Ford and GM won't be around to find that out.

What will YOU be driving when Bush or McCain attack Iran (with full Congressional support, naturally), and Iran closes the Gulf as it has promised, and then you face $5.50 and more at the pump? Realistically, of course.

posted by GuestZero on Jul 23, 2008 at 04:38:46 pm     #



These companies are in trouble because of a tremendous lack of foresight. I think we all saw the need for fuel efficient vehicles coming ten years ago.

Instead of spending on R&D for fuel efficiency, they just kept pumping out new and larger trucks and SUVs. In GM's case, why don't they have the same engine management system from the Northstar on every engine? (It can deactivate cylinders when less power is needed.)

They've been lazy and are paying the price.

posted by photodan on Jul 23, 2008 at 09:10:16 pm     #



People who are saying they have been lazy and riding the wave of people wanting bigger things. When they file for bankrupcty will be a good day for them and for this country. Hopefully they get new management in there that isn't affraid to make the cuts that need to make. Clean house totally, get rid of costs, throw out contracts. If the UAW bitches and goes on strike...more factories out of the US and start importing.

The unions are hurting...the auto industry is their last stand. They took on every other industry, have lost. They took on the airline industry, and had their asses handed to them by the airline management and bankruptcy courts. They fought, went on strike, whatever...airlines didn't blink. Northwest mechanics went out - they got replaced. Result? Those "scabs" still work there, and the union settled to bring some of their members back. Pilots struck Comair, the airline shut the operations down, pilots eventually gave up and the airline cut a good chunk of them after. Unions put United and US Airways to the gring...the airlines tossed out the contracts of the unions that didn't want to work with them in their reorganizations.

Look at the States that are growing, and getting new hi-tech businesses...they aren't strong union states and mostly right to work. Time for the rust belt to wake up before they blow away like dust in the wind.

posted by JustaSooner on Jul 24, 2008 at 09:41:10 am     #



more factories out of the US and start importing.

The Chevy Aveao is already imported, its made by Daywoo (spelling) in Korea.

Unions put United and US Airways to the gring...the airlines tossed out the contracts of the unions that didn't want to work with them in their reorganizations

Didn't Reagan have something to do with that?

Also, i think part of the problem is the fact that many ford and gm cars are just not affordable, and thats largly due to the wages of UAW members. How they expect to make a profit on something that costs too much to build in the first place? Dont get me wrong, i'm pro-union, but a union member also needs to be concerned with the profitability of the companty they work for becasue just becasue your a member of the union doesn't mean that they won't or can't shut the plant down and your out of a job. I think UAW should make some concesions, $28 an hour is ridiculously high for working on a production line. Like did anyone see that special on the making of the corvette? The guy had a machine to put the tire on and all he had to do was tighted the lugs, tell me he needs $28 an hour to do that? I'd do it for half that! (and so would a heck of a lot of other people too.)

posted by tm2 on Jul 24, 2008 at 11:41:04 am     #



(oops, forgive the typo's, thats what happens when you type too fast 8-)

posted by tm2 on Jul 24, 2008 at 11:42:30 am     #



tm2, how long have you worked in a factory?

posted by JeepMaker on Jul 24, 2008 at 07:11:12 pm     #



Its the I got mine attitude.

posted by Linecrosser on Jul 24, 2008 at 07:40:20 pm     #



JeepMaker, i don't work in a factory.

posted by tm2 on Jul 25, 2008 at 12:00:25 pm     #



"JeepMaker, i don't work in a factory."

As I suspected. You saw a few seconds of footage on some TV special and you're an expert on how easy factory workers have it.
You know nothing of factory work. Folks like you picture some guy making $28.00 an hour standing along a line putting one bolt into place. It doesn't work like that.

We have people called I.E.s- Industrial engineers that take each job and determine how long each individual step should take. Their aim is to make each job "efficient" by adding as much work as possible so that there is the least amount of time wasted.
I have worked jobs that were actually timed to the point where you had less than a minute of available time in an entire 8 hour shift. That means you don't stop for anything, not to catch your breath, blow your nose, wipe the sweat from your face, nothing.

Surely, it's much better at the new plant than the old one. The old plant had jobs that would cripple you. The new one just makes you run around like the proverbial chicken with it's head cut off.

At the old plant, I saw new hires quit before the end of their first shift. I actually heard one guy say something like, "I thought you guys just played cards and drank and smoked".
All the self proclaimed experts that "know" how easy the factory worker has it should tell that to my many former co-workers that died from one type of cancer or another, oh yeah, you can't they're dead.

What sucks the most in our current situation, is the upper management that decide what we are to build, they don't suffer from their poor management. We can only build what they give us to build. When nobody wants to buy SUVs that get lousy mileage, it's the hourly worker who loses his job.
The big shot upper management moron at worst gets a "golden parachute" and goes to work for some other company that will pay him/her millions of dollars a year.

posted by JeepMaker on Jul 25, 2008 at 12:21:12 pm     #



Remeber Marcy Kaptur's video posted here? She detailed that Ford was spending ten or 20 billion on new auto plants in Mexico. That is where they will build the new efficient cars. The goal is to fuck all the retirees and American employees, and consider that to betray their country financially is justified in order to re-establish old profit levels in the newer cheaper efficent cars. Meanwhile, globalization's required transport of goods and raw materials accounts for 25% of world carbon dioxide emissions.

Globalization and lobbying is killing us economically and has destroyed our laws that stop people from being killed by unsafe foods and products. Today's lobbyists run our country for the interests of corporations that are by nature traitors. When they weigh money against the constitution, the money always carrys more weight. Now why do we allow them to run our country?

posted by prime3end on Jul 25, 2008 at 01:21:56 pm     #



Jeepmaker, i said this "I think UAW should make some concesions, $28 an hour is ridiculously high for working on a production line" Are you telling me that your time is REALLY worth $28 an hour? Really? Working on an assembly line is so dangerous and so skilled that you need that much money? Im not saying that you dont deserve a LIVING wage, but when your company can't sell cars anymore because they are too expensive to build, you still think you should make that much money?

And yes i mentioned "The guy had a machine to put the tire on and all he had to do was tighten the lugs, tell me he needs $28 an hour to do that? I'd do it for half that" notice i said "does HE need to make that much" i was refering to that ONE guy, not ALL employees. I imagine there are many skilled tradesmen that are working there that DO deserve the amount they make, but everyone? And i include management because those people suck a company dry just as fast if not faster with thier salaries and bonuses. So please don't think im just picking on you becasue you work at jeep, because im not, but unless there are some concessions eventually, i dont see jeep staying open and that will affect the entire community not just those who get laid off.

So if i have no clue what its like then tell me EXACTLY how hard your job is and why its worth $28 an hour, by all mean educate those of us who dont know what its like to work at that job. Its not like your risk falling to your death everyday when you go to work.

posted by tm2 on Jul 25, 2008 at 01:54:23 pm     #



I've been searching but I can't find any data to show the percentage of the price of a vehicle which is represented by the labor costs.

I know several years ago it was claimed that that percentage had actually dropped. I believe the biggest chunk of costs is health care related.
That is a huge reason why the Japanese companies have such an advantage. They don't have the tremendous number of retirees that they have to pay a pension to, or pay health care costs for.
After 31+ years I could write a book, actually, I have given it some thought.

As I said, work at the new plant is far easier than the old plant. You may not do heavy lifting anymore, but the jobs are timed in such a way that if everything is going the way it's planned, you are in constant motion. At the old plant you had a less involved job that would kick your ass. At the new plant the jobs involve many more procedures, it's not like add one part, stand and wait for the next car.
I'll tell you one thing I will never miss from working in the body shop at the old plant, the sparks. After years of operating spotwelders, you'd have so much metal embedded in your body you could set off a metal detector naked!

Nothing like having red hot metal fragments zap you all day long. You haven't lived until you catch one up the nose. I got blasted in the face so hard once it drew blood. All in a days work. At least the spotwelding at the new plant is done by robots, too bad they don't buy cars.

posted by JeepMaker on Jul 26, 2008 at 11:13:37 am     #



Jeepmaker - I do contract work at TNAP, and the only ones I've seen "running around like the proverbial chicken with it's head cut off" were the fork drivers. The line moves past a point to the tune of 2 vehicles per minute. And the 'old timers' that I know are making more than $28/hr! (Granted, the 'newbies' hired within the past year or so are making less.)

posted by GraphicsGuy on Jul 26, 2008 at 02:17:05 pm     #



I'd hate to be a fork driver . Granted, some of them have had a hand in screwing themselves, but they also get very little backing from the union.
There is supposed to be a strict speed limit indoors for forklifts (and all other vehicles. They stress safety so much, I always wondered, why not put governors on the forklifts so they can't possibly exceed the speed limit? Answer, because they'd never be able to keep up.

Most of the time, you'd think somebody doing more than their job called for would be a good thing. Trouble is, the company will take advantage of that and continue to add more and more work to a job until the operator just can't keep up anymore. Then, do they take some work away?, Hell no, they browbeat the worker, and sometimes they snap.

If they want to save money, get rid of most of the supervision. We have team leaders who do the majority of supervisions job now.
Why does each department need an area manger for each shift, AND a center manager to manage them? these are folks making LARGE $$.

We could argue it all day. I'll suffice it to say, don't judge till you've walked a few miles in our boots.

posted by JeepMaker on Jul 26, 2008 at 03:50:24 pm     #