Toledo Talk

Lucas County expands into strip club business ? ? ?

http://www.toledoblade.com/business/2016/03/19/Strip-club-s-latest-moniker-has-Mud-Hens-crying-foul.html

When I saw the sign, I just assumed that the County had expanded their incursion into the private business sector and were now in the titty-bar business.

Why should the non-profit Mudhens be limited to competing only with the owners of bars, restaurants, banquet halls and office buildings? To date, the adult entertainment market is virtually untapped by Lucas County government. Look for the Mudhen Massage Parlor, Mudhen Peep-show Theater and the Mudhen Bath house.

On a more serious note, yesterday I was inbibing with some experienced bar people who laughed that Hensville was able to jump through all the pre-opening inspections, re-inspections and permits from the Toledo Building Inspection, Lucas County Health Department, Toledo Fire Department and Ohio Liquor Control. These inspections are required AFTER CONSTRUCTION IS COMPLETED in order for mere mortals to get an occupancy permit for a bar / restaurant. I was downtown last weekend and Hensville construction was not completed. No way the construction, inspections and permits got done in 3 days. I even heard that there remains exposed wiring in several areas through the Henhouse.

Add that to the list of reasons why it isn't fair for the County to compete with private sector businesses.

Yet some posters here are pleased with Hensville because pints of beer are available at a lower price than at businesses that invested their hard money to open. I think it's a disgusting abuse of governance.

created by jimavolt on Mar 19, 2016 at 07:05:51 am     Comments: 34

source      versions      1 person liked this


Comments ... #

Wait till they run a few regular businesses out, then they can raise their prices, to not compete with the parks venue and the sheeple will still pay, and pay some more.

posted by MIJeff on Mar 19, 2016 at 07:59:14 am     #  

Driving down Monroe, I saw the new name for the strip club. My first thought: they're in for a lawsuit.

posted by Anniecski on Mar 21, 2016 at 09:20:09 am     #   1 person liked this

I am working on the project, and the opening schedule was very aggressive. I do not know how they got certain things done. We still have a lot of work to do.

posted by Hoops on Mar 21, 2016 at 09:43:33 am     #  

It's a gambit for sure. The question becomes this-Will this "Entertainment district" attract MORE people to DT that had ordinarily stayed away? Or, does this just dilute the base that's already spending time and $ down there?

We now, clearly have a walk-able entertainment district, with bars along Monroe St, Washington, Jefferson, Huron and S. St Clair. although, you could certainly argue that this district existed organically, before Hensville or Promedica announced anything.

The thing that makes me nervous about this-There was momentum without preferential treatment and "Not for Profit" bar building. If this fizzles, and if legitimately good venues disappear, it will push this town even more towards cynicism. The best thing WE can do, is support the independent businesses surrounding this district, and hope we have the collective $ to support everything.

posted by ahmahler on Mar 21, 2016 at 09:49:16 am     #   1 person liked this

You people voted for these things by who you put into office.

posted by MIJeff on Mar 21, 2016 at 09:58:23 am     #  

MIJeff posted at 10:58:23 AM on Mar 21, 2016:

You people voted for these things by who you put into office.

posted by slowsol on Mar 21, 2016 at 10:39:26 am     #   2 people liked this

I mean residents of Toledo, I don't live there so you can't blame me for it, I can't vote for you.

posted by MIJeff on Mar 21, 2016 at 12:01:16 pm     #  

If I was a gambling man I would bet that the prices at hennsville will be higher come opening day and thereafter. After all, 'non-profit' doesn't mean 'break even' and the prices inside the stadium certainly are not a good deal.

posted by Mike21 on Mar 21, 2016 at 12:07:32 pm     #   1 person liked this

Different economics. Customers in a stadium are a captive audience, so you can charge them significantly more than the norm and still get them buying. Outside the stadium, however, they're competing directly with all of the other bars and restaurants around them. So that's where they can benefit from the fact that their expenses are far lower than the others, and charge less for their beers to attract the wallets wandering the streets.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 21, 2016 at 12:44:10 pm     #   3 people liked this

"If I was a gambling man I would bet that the prices at hennsville will be higher come opening day". There will be 2 Hensville opening day rooftop parties... $115 per person includes buffet and open bar. My next bet would be that these will be the most expensive options on opening day and that they will both be sold out. Just because they can charge less doesn't mean they will.

posted by Mike21 on Mar 30, 2016 at 09:12:04 am     #  

According to Ohio Administrative Code, section 4301:1-1-50 A 1 b, No permit holder . . . shall sell an unlimited number of servings of alcoholic beverages during any set period of time for a fixed price.

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4301:1-1-50

Do you think Hensville operators are naive to Ohio liquor laws, or do you think that they just don't care? If any of the legitimate for-profit businesses they are competing with did this, they would surely get a violation.

posted by jimavolt on Mar 31, 2016 at 11:16:55 am     #  

The rooftop is going to be a little chilly on opening day if the weather forecast holds

posted by Hoops on Mar 31, 2016 at 11:37:12 am     #  

jimavolt posted at 12:16:55 PM on Mar 31, 2016:

According to Ohio Administrative Code, section 4301:1-1-50 A 1 b, No permit holder . . . shall sell an unlimited number of servings of alcoholic beverages during any set period of time for a fixed price.

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4301:1-1-50

Do you think Hensville operators are naive to Ohio liquor laws, or do you think that they just don't care? If any of the legitimate for-profit businesses they are competing with did this, they would surely get a violation.

That's interesting; so a bar is not allowed to host an event with the cost of drinks included in the admission price? I know I've been to fundraising events where there was an open bar, but maybe that was okay because the 'sponsor' paid per drink even though it was included as a cost of my ticket? Now we have the actually bar being the host.

posted by MsArcher on Mar 31, 2016 at 12:16:19 pm     #  

MsArcher posted at 01:16:19 PM on Mar 31, 2016:
jimavolt posted at 12:16:55 PM on Mar 31, 2016:

According to Ohio Administrative Code, section 4301:1-1-50 A 1 b, No permit holder . . . shall sell an unlimited number of servings of alcoholic beverages during any set period of time for a fixed price.

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4301:1-1-50

Do you think Hensville operators are naive to Ohio liquor laws, or do you think that they just don't care? If any of the legitimate for-profit businesses they are competing with did this, they would surely get a violation.

That's interesting; so a bar is not allowed to host an event with the cost of drinks included in the admission price? I know I've been to fundraising events where there was an open bar, but maybe that was okay because the 'sponsor' paid per drink even though it was included as a cost of my ticket? Now we have the actually bar being the host.

Doesn't that just kill happy hours?

posted by MIJeff on Mar 31, 2016 at 12:30:39 pm     #  

Gives a whole new meaning to having a "Pole" tax!

posted by shamrock44 on Mar 31, 2016 at 12:36:07 pm     #  

unlimited bar and open bar are different but it is very strange they are doing this.

posted by upso on Mar 31, 2016 at 01:33:53 pm     #  

This is a bit murky. The way I understand it is as written above, that it is illegal to give unlimited drinks, or drinks without individual purchases. I've seen charity events that are afraid to do such a thing, even though it's commonplace. Technically, you are supposed to have "drink tickets" or something like that. The reason you see charity events doing it all the time and even private establishments doing it is because-I've never seen or heard of it being enforced in over 10 yrs of being in the alcohol industry. Most liquor control enforcement has to do with underage and overserved. Many of the archaic sounding laws are just simply ignored. I'm not even that surprised to see it publicized. I've spoken at length with the Liquor Control officer in NW Ohio, and they are very much (and have been for several administrations) "pro-business".

posted by ahmahler on Mar 31, 2016 at 01:45:26 pm     #  

MIJeff posted at 01:30:39 PM on Mar 31, 2016:
MsArcher posted at 01:16:19 PM on Mar 31, 2016:
jimavolt posted at 12:16:55 PM on Mar 31, 2016:

According to Ohio Administrative Code, section 4301:1-1-50 A 1 b, No permit holder . . . shall sell an unlimited number of servings of alcoholic beverages during any set period of time for a fixed price.

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4301:1-1-50

Do you think Hensville operators are naive to Ohio liquor laws, or do you think that they just don't care? If any of the legitimate for-profit businesses they are competing with did this, they would surely get a violation.

That's interesting; so a bar is not allowed to host an event with the cost of drinks included in the admission price? I know I've been to fundraising events where there was an open bar, but maybe that was okay because the 'sponsor' paid per drink even though it was included as a cost of my ticket? Now we have the actually bar being the host.

Doesn't that just kill happy hours?

No. Different issue.

posted by justread on Mar 31, 2016 at 01:56:24 pm     #  

From the Hensville website:

High Five Opening Day Rooftop Party (only 200 available)

High Five is located on top of the Fleetwood Building at 28 N. St. Clair St. You will have access to the High Five rooftop party deck and the indoor banquet space located on the fourth floor. Both areas offer stunning views of Fifth Third Field and a great social gathering atmosphere. Packages are $115 per person and include:
•Exclusive commemorative rooftop ticket
•All-you-can-eat buffet*
•Deluxe bar package
•Commemorative Hensville Opening Moscow Mule Mug (pictured above)
•Admission to Hensville Park Block Party

Not seeing "unlimited alcohol" anywhere in the description.

posted by justread on Mar 31, 2016 at 02:08:43 pm     #  

From the Hensville website:

High Five Opening Day Rooftop Party (only 200 available)

High Five is located on top of the Fleetwood Building at 28 N. St. Clair St. You will have access to the High Five rooftop party deck and the indoor banquet space located on the fourth floor. Both areas offer stunning views of Fifth Third Field and a great social gathering atmosphere. Packages are $115 per person and include:
•Exclusive commemorative rooftop ticket
•All-you-can-eat buffet*
•Deluxe bar package
•Commemorative Hensville Opening Moscow Mule Mug (pictured above)
•Admission to Hensville Park Block Party

Not seeing "unlimited alcohol" anywhere in the description.

posted by justread on Mar 31, 2016 at 02:08:56 pm     #  

And the other party:

Top of Nine Opening Day Rooftop Party (only 200 available)

Top of Nine is located on top of the buildings at 3 and 9 N. St. Clair St. on the same block as Fifth Third Field. You will have access to The Rooftop on Nine party terrace (which provides an excellent view of the action), the Top of Nine Party Deck (which overlooks St. Clair St.), and the indoor Top of Nine party space. Packages are $115 per person and include:
•Exclusive commemorative rooftop ticket
•All-you-can-eat buffet*
•Deluxe bar package
•Commemorative Hensville Opening Moscow Mule Mug (pictured above)
•Admission to Hensville Block Party

Are we SURE the liquor is "all you care to drink?"

posted by justread on Mar 31, 2016 at 02:10:14 pm     #  

Ahmahler, I was aware of the law because once upon a time the law was enforced against a business I was involved with.

This isn't a privately owned bar gambling by doing something illegal that might cost them a financial penalty and mark on the liquor license they paid for - it's a subset of Lucas County government doing something illegal. Those involved have nothing at risk.

Do you think it's reasonable for Lucas County to go ahead with this plan even though it's clearly forbidden by Ohio Liquor laws?

posted by jimavolt on Mar 31, 2016 at 02:28:29 pm     #  

I was aware of the law because once upon a time the law was enforced against a business I was involved with.

Yeah-back when I was a less evolved human, Frankie's once offered an "all you can drink" night for $10. I'd like to emphasize the "once" part of that. The word was, they were told they weren't allowed to do that, so they stopped. However, anyone could easily see, pretty much immediately, why that's a REALLY bad idea.

posted by ahmahler on Mar 31, 2016 at 02:33:40 pm     #  

"... it's a subset of Lucas County government doing something illegal."

Here's the link with the info that justread referenced.

https://hensvilletoledo.com/upcoming-events

How do you know that a "Deluxe bar package" is illegal?

What is a deluxe bar package?

posted by jr on Mar 31, 2016 at 02:43:46 pm     #  

jimavolt posted at 03:28:29 PM on Mar 31, 2016:

Ahmahler, I was aware of the law because once upon a time the law was enforced against a business I was involved with.

This isn't a privately owned bar gambling by doing something illegal that might cost them a financial penalty and mark on the liquor license they paid for - it's a subset of Lucas County government doing something illegal. Those involved have nothing at risk.

Do you think it's reasonable for Lucas County to go ahead with this plan even though it's clearly forbidden by Ohio Liquor laws?

I think Hensville is competing with an unfair advantage to the potential harm of small business. Therefore, I am suspicious of the whole deal. But I'm not sure we have established what they are really offering in exchange for a ticket. They might not be guilty of anything under the ORC with this when the details are known, even though obviously the entire foundation of the enterprise is wrong in the minds of some, including maybe you and me both.

I am curious to know the details.

posted by justread on Mar 31, 2016 at 06:10:33 pm     #   1 person liked this

jr posted at 03:43:46 PM on Mar 31, 2016:

"... it's a subset of Lucas County government doing something illegal."

Here's the link with the info that justread referenced.

https://hensvilletoledo.com/upcoming-events

How do you know that a "Deluxe bar package" is illegal?

What is a deluxe bar package?

Earlier it said "deluxe open bar". They've since changed it.

posted by slowsol on Mar 31, 2016 at 06:43:31 pm     #  

Slowsol is right. It changed from deluxe open bar to deluxe bar package. A deluxe bar package sounds like it's from a New Years Eve Party at the Hilton, where you get 3 drink chips per person for $75.

Maybe they learned that the open bar concept is frowned upon.

posted by jimavolt on Apr 01, 2016 at 05:04:19 am     #  

Screw it. I have found when you tip well and you are nice to the bartender, life is an open bar. Jim always suspected this, of course, being a good tipper and seeing his liquor cost. :)

posted by justread on Apr 01, 2016 at 05:29:15 am     #   1 person liked this

upso posted at 02:33:53 PM on Mar 31, 2016:

unlimited bar and open bar are different but it is very strange they are doing this.

Yeah, not to dig into semantics, but I'm not sure the term "open bar" means, really, anything, other than confirming that there WILL BE a bar. How that's interpreted is a different story.

posted by ahmahler on Apr 01, 2016 at 06:49:46 am     #  

ahmahler posted at 07:49:46 AM on Apr 01, 2016:
upso posted at 02:33:53 PM on Mar 31, 2016:

unlimited bar and open bar are different but it is very strange they are doing this.

Yeah, not to dig into semantics, but I'm not sure the term "open bar" means, really, anything, other than confirming that there WILL BE a bar. How that's interpreted is a different story.

From my experience at charity/fundraisers, open bar always meant the attendee didn't have to pay for drinks; cash bar meant you did pay for drinks. How that works for an event like this? I would still assume open bar means the cost of drinks is included in the cost of the ticket - but that's where it runs afoul of the law because at a charity my open bar drinks were being paid for individually by the event host.

What this screams to me is that they have someone running things who really doesn't know what they are doing. Surprise, surprise.

posted by MsArcher on Apr 01, 2016 at 09:52:00 am     #  

but that's where it runs afoul of the law because at a charity my open bar drinks were being paid for individually by the event host.

Not necessarily-In many cases-liquor aside-beer and wine are donated by distributors and handed out without any restriction. Technically, this is illegal as well, but VERY common.

One way to handle this, legally, is to give attendees tickets for a finite number of drinks with their paid admission. Then you can claim the admission INCLUDES the purchase of drinks. If anyone has ever been to the Beer Fest, that's the way you're supposed to do it legally.

posted by ahmahler on Apr 01, 2016 at 10:07:21 am     #  

Do wedding venues have a different type of liquor license than bars?

I'm just curious what the difference between an open bar at a wedding reception is compared to some of the other types of open/unlimited bars being mentioned here.

Or is it different because the wedding host is paying a per guest liquor fee?

posted by mom2 on Apr 01, 2016 at 10:16:32 am     #  

I've been to a ton of open bar charity events.

posted by SensorG on Apr 01, 2016 at 10:53:31 am     #  

mom2 posted at 11:16:32 AM on Apr 01, 2016:

Do wedding venues have a different type of liquor license than bars?

I'm just curious what the difference between an open bar at a wedding reception is compared to some of the other types of open/unlimited bars being mentioned here.

Or is it different because the wedding host is paying a per guest liquor fee?

correct-They are paying per drink or per bottle. In those cases-Open bar is no charge for the consumers, but someone is paying for the drinks

posted by ahmahler on Apr 01, 2016 at 12:03:17 pm     #