Toledo Talk

Current location of handheld radar guns!!

Beware!!! 10am, Friday Feb. 10th. Hiding on top of overpass on Douglas rd.

created by FranklinT on Feb 10, 2017 at 11:11:04 am     Comments: 242

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From Jan 1 until now 91 accidents have occurred on 475 in the Toledo limits. Just this week all my wife could see was 4 tires sticking up over the wall on EB 475 in that area when someone rolled their SUV on the EB side

posted by OldTimer on Jun 10, 2017 at 12:32:20 pm     #   1 person liked this

reggie posted at 07:19:02 AM on Jun 10, 2017:

Bassam has a point in a way. We are a country of laws. If you break them you take the chance of being punished.
However, we know the city does this for the money. Is there any debate on this?

Traveling on 75-475 you can set your speed control. Driving on some streets where the speed drops from 35 to 25 with no warning or through school zones with no flashing lights (ie: speed traps), is what is BS and should be stopped.

I think a lot of people would feel better about this if they had let us vote on it.

posted by justread on Jun 10, 2017 at 01:39:40 pm     #  

I'll attribute the accidents on 475 near ProMedica to ODOT and their never ending construction project (ten years? and counting) before I'll blame speeding motorists ina 60 MPH zone, I reckon.

posted by JohnnyMac on Jun 10, 2017 at 02:37:08 pm     #   1 person liked this

I'll attribute the accidents on 475 near ProMedica to ODOT and their never ending construction project (ten years? and counting) before I'll blame speeding motorists ina 60 MPH zone, I reckon.

posted by JohnnyMac on Jun 10, 2017 at 02:37:09 pm     #  

I drove to DTW friday afternoon and the Waze app was showing police at Greenbelt parkway and I-75 (I saw the cop but looked like he was getting traffic going southbound and I was going northbound. Also sent an alert by ottawa river on I-75 but I didn't see anyone so either he was gone or was hiding.

posted by jamesteroh on Jun 11, 2017 at 11:18:32 am     #  

475 Westbound at ProMedica again this morning, but I think they can get cars going Eastbound from that spot, too.

posted by JohnnyMac on Jun 12, 2017 at 08:19:10 am     #  

That stretch of westbound I-475 between the split and Douglas Rd must be one of the most dangerous roadways in the state of Ohio to require the services of the Barney Fife safety brigade.

"It's not a money grab issue, not a safety issue, not a PHH issue, not a political issue, not a "fill-in-the-blank issue" it's simply a "you simply need to obey the posted speed limit" issue."

Money collected from traffic enforcement cameras is listed in the budget as revenue. The city expects a minimum amount of money from these cameras to keep the budget balanced. It's not bonus money for the rainy day fund.

Recently, the mayor referenced this revenue stream and called it good news. Good news? It's bad news because it indicates the number of dangerous drivers on our roadways. PH2 should have produced a public service announcement, reminding drivers to think of the children and drive slower.

Since it's expected revenue in the budget, then it's obviously a money grab. If nobody drove dangerously, then we would have a multi-million dollar budget hole that would have to be made up somewhere.

The increase in the sneaky police activity began only a year or so ago. If this kind of "policing" had been occurring since the 1980s, then fine. No biggie.

But why the sudden increase in this kind of shoddy police work in only the past year? Does it have anything to do with the state's and courts' decisions, regarding the stationary traffic enforcement cameras?

Since the mayor creates the budget, and city council approves it, and since money from traffic cameras is expected revenue, and if the money from the stationary cameras got eliminated or reduced, then obviously, the mayor or city government gave the police department the order to put humans on the roads with handheld cameras.

The police may not want to participate in this scam, but they could be ordered to do it by the mayor. The city's needs this revenue for the general fund, ironically, to help pay the salaries of police officers.

The city is relying on dangerous driving.
It's definitely not a safety issue.
Buy it is a money grab.
It is a mayoral issue.
It is a city council issue.
It is a scam.

It's a dry, sunny, summer morning. How slippery is westbound 475 between the split and Douglas Rd? How low is the visibility this morning due rain, snow, fog, or a forest fire? It's morning, westbound, therefore the sun cannot be blamed as a weather hazard.

How about these dedicated officers place their asses along the roadways when it's dark and snowing or pouring rain or foggy and the road and driving conditions are not good enough to be driving the speed limit, let along well above the limit? Then their so-called police work would be about safety.

posted by jr on Jun 12, 2017 at 09:02:16 am     #   7 people liked this

Boom. The essentially truth laid bare.
Right there in the open, like a flotilla of kayaks gently floating down the Maumee past the new Metropark after a rain, with bright colors and brown tipped paddles.

posted by justread on Jun 12, 2017 at 10:11:40 am     #   2 people liked this

Will go with a rowing scull with the brown tips all enmeshed and colliding with each other on clowncil. Bad advice, bad judgement coming outa 1 govmint square.

posted by Mariner on Jun 12, 2017 at 10:21:46 am     #  

Not one, but two of them on the Ottawa River entrance ramp this morning - at the same time.

posted by Foodie on Jun 12, 2017 at 02:08:19 pm     #  

City of Toledo 2017 Approved Budget - March 2017

General Fund Revenue and Other Sources

Fines and Forfeitures
Fines and forfeitures revenue includes red light camera revenue, court costs and fines. Total 2017 estimated revenue is $7,055,815. Revenue received from red light and speed violations is estimated at $4,300,000 for 2017. Of this total, $2,000,000 is anticipated from stationary cameras and $2,300,000 is anticipated from hand-held cameras.


Mayor PH2 said in May 2017:

"What we have is some good news," the mayor told The Blade. "And the good news is because of ... the handheld speed cameras and some other revenue things that are happening."

When did society deem dangerous driving to be "good news"?

I refuse to believe that Toledo politicians would be joyous, like Hicks-Hudson appears to be, over revenue collected from deadly driving antics. Even Toledo politicians would not sink that low. Would they?

It's an election year. Are any political candidates proposing ideas to end dangerous driving?


Toledo Talk thread from 2008 that referenced a July 2008 Blade story

Toledo is $2.5M in red; deficit may hit $5M.

... revenue from traffic enforcement cameras have fallen short.

My comment back then:

As to the revenue problem with the cameras, I guess that means the cameras are doing their job, and people are driving safer, which is what I thought the traffic cameras were all about.


In that same TT thread, it was shown that back in 2008, councilman Mark Sobczak slipped up.

City mulls $120 fines for traffic violations.

Council President Mark Sobczak said the increase request does not seem to have opposition from councilmen. "No one likes to raise fees but, quite frankly, we are trying to balance the budget," Mr. Sobczak said.


Also from that same thread, Lisa Renee at Glass City Jungle astutely observed in February 2008:

The City is counting on the increased revenue to help the budget which means, they are counting on residents of NWO to run red lights and to speed through intersections.

After all, if you all slow down and follow our traffic laws by driving safely then imagine the horrible affect it would have on our budget.


Our traffic camera revenue scams have existed since the early aught years. Multiple Toledo mayoral regimes and city council compositions have endorsed these revenue streams.

It's politics. Politicians create schemes to take money from the citizens, and the politicians create lies to justify their actions.

I think that a sensible line of questioning for the 2017 Toledo mayoral and city council at-large candidates should focus on the health of the city. And I'm not referring to our drinking water nor the opioid addiction issue.

1. When and how will the city of Toledo stop taking money from the capital improvements plan to help pay police and fire salaries that are the biggest expense in the general fund?

2. When and how will the city no longer be dependent upon the revenue, generated by the traffic enforcement camera scam?

3. When and how will the city no longer be dependent upon the revenue, generated by the illegal refuse fee tax?


The political candidates will probably propose feel-good solutions
for Lake Erie and drug addiction to give the appearance of caring. All of the candidates will say similar things on those two concerns.

But which candidates will focus on our finances?

1. In 2017, Toledo government was expected to transfer over $11 million from the capital improvement fund to the general fund.

2. For 2017, the traffic enforcement cameras were forecast to generate over $4 million, but the city is on pace to receive over $6 million from these cameras, thanks to greater-than-expected revenue generated thus far by the handheld cameras.

3. According to the 2017 budget, the illegal refuse fee tax is forecast to generate (steal) nearly $12 million.


That's nearly $30 million that the general fund for a healthy city SHOULD NOT receive, especially regarding the CIP money and the illegal refuse fee tax.

The refuse fee will steal nearly $12 million from Toledoans in 2017. That's money that we could have saved or spent, including spending on local businesses.

  • When and how will Toledo's general fund collect the $30 million from tax revenue, generated by visitors and new businesses and from the businesses and residents who have moved into the city, making the city no longer dependent upon our current scams?
  • Or when and how will the city reduce the general fund budget to make the $30 million unnecessary?

posted by jr on Jun 12, 2017 at 09:25:32 pm     #   4 people liked this

"t's a dry, sunny, summer morning. How slippery is westbound 475 between the split and Douglas Rd? How low is the visibility this morning due rain, snow, fog, or a forest fire? It's morning, westbound, therefore the sun cannot be blamed as a weather hazard.

How about these dedicated officers place their asses along the roadways when it's dark and snowing or pouring rain or foggy and the road and driving conditions are not good enough to be driving the speed limit, let along well above the limit? Then their so-called police work would be about safety."

This says it all.

posted by reggie on Jun 13, 2017 at 05:40:40 am     #   1 person liked this

Same cop, same time, same place this morning: 475 Westbound at ProMedica.

posted by JohnnyMac on Jun 13, 2017 at 08:17:13 am     #  

reggie,

I don't think it's entirely up to the officers themselves on where they "place their asses".... it's not like they get in their patrol car at the start of their shift and say "Well, what shall we do today ?"

Their bosses dictate that, I would assume.

I agree about the radar and cameras being a pain in the ass, but I don't think it's fair to get an attitude towards the officers themselves.

Also, if they would get their shit together down at City Hall, and manage the money better, perhaps they wouldn't need to depend on that revenue from speeding cars as much as they do. The money is there, but My God, the way it is handled is a mess.

posted by foodie88 on Jun 13, 2017 at 09:21:56 am     #   2 people liked this

I don't blame TPD. The mandate probably comes from the 22nd floor of One Government Center where our incompetent mayor is located.

I take the Promedica westbound ramp every morning to work. Looks like it has become a new favorite spot for TPD to get speeders every morning along with the Ottawa River Road on-ramp.

Definitely not a "safety" issue, but if traffic flow is going 68-73 mph, then it is what it is. If its for safety, have the cops at least visible and not hiding behind the overpass (as he was doing this morning). I know people slow down when police are actually visible out on the highway opposed to playing hide and seek.

Meanwhile, the city has seen murders the past 3 straight days. More cops on the streets and not getting speeders. Makes me want to pull petitions out to run for City Clowncil in the fall....

It would be totally funny (probably illegal) to hold up a sign every morning on the other side of the overpass warning of the cop on the other side tho....

posted by WestToledoan on Jun 13, 2017 at 12:28:25 pm     #  

I think it was two gang related murders and one defensive shooting of a man who found the wrong apartment in the middle of the night and was shot during an altercation with the property manager. I may be wrong.

posted by justread on Jun 13, 2017 at 12:54:36 pm     #  

They are migrating to the neighborhoods. I passed one about 2 PM on Eastbound Tremainsville between Wernerts corners and Upton (about Melwood). I think I was doing about 39 in a 35. Hopefully I fell within the grace amount.
Bad spot for him though. That road is too bumpy to really speed.

posted by Trilby on Jun 13, 2017 at 04:19:55 pm     #  

Start blowing your horn when you pass him. It scares the sh!t out of them.

posted by kritter on Jun 14, 2017 at 12:35:45 am     #   1 person liked this

>Start blowing your horn when you pass him. It scares the sh!t out of them.<

Might that not cause his trigger finger to push the shutter button inadvertently ? It would be better if he dropped it and broke it.

posted by Trilby on Jun 14, 2017 at 08:02:30 am     #   1 person liked this

>Start blowing your horn when you pass him. It scares the sh!t out of them.<

Might that not cause his trigger finger to push the shutter button inadvertently ? It would be better if he dropped it and broke it.

posted by Trilby on Jun 14, 2017 at 08:02:57 am     #  

Well, I found out why there are double posts. After posting a message, the forum does not advance you to a better place. Backing out, you see the post was not sent and you may re-send it error.

posted by Trilby on Jun 14, 2017 at 08:05:58 am     #  

kritter the crosshairs of disagreement do not belong on the guy wearing the badge. It's not smart to pull the tail of the tiger. Before I get my shit jumped for that comment it is not a veiled threat on my part and probably these musings are read I really doubt there is much over-reaction by those who are trained and disciplined in their responses. Am still flabbergasted by anyone speeding on a residential street under current road conditions. I'm having a hard enough time bobbing and weaving the mortar holes which feels like driving in some perverse video game where the accumulated points are you don't get a trip to the repair shop this week.

posted by Mariner on Jun 14, 2017 at 08:10:49 am     #  

Same cop, same time, slightly different location today: 475 Westbound, hiding in the long grass behind the Douglas overpass.

I think he finally noticed my one finger salute today.

posted by JohnnyMac on Jun 14, 2017 at 08:16:44 am     #   1 person liked this

Someone in my office said the same cop frequents the Greenbelt/I28) area. She doesn't speed and wants to row down her window and give him the one finger salute but is scared of getting a ticket:)

posted by classylady on Jun 14, 2017 at 01:12:42 pm     #  

Want to avoid the entire issue of dealing with police with radar guns? Why not simply drive the speed limit? Seems simple enough.....

posted by ryors on Jun 14, 2017 at 04:59:00 pm     #   2 people liked this

Thanks Ryors,

Dope slap to the head!

Of course, the way to avoid all this nonsense is to simply DRIVE THE SPEED LIMIT.

No need for honking, or Fingers or deep philosophical diatribes about the DEEPER implications of speed cops, dollars, budgets, political issues or whatever other bullshit issues you have on your mind.

Light your torches Toledo and storm the castle that has thrust it's unjust speed cops upon us! JUST DRIVE THE SPEED LIMIT!

Wow!

posted by bassam on Jun 14, 2017 at 08:05:31 pm     #   2 people liked this

Seems simple enough

Yeah. Almost too simple. ;)

posted by justread on Jun 14, 2017 at 09:17:48 pm     #   3 people liked this

I do drive the speed limit. The problem is that TPD keeps telling everyone that it's about safety. That's pure Bullsh!t. Just tell the truth Chief Kral!

posted by kritter on Jun 14, 2017 at 10:56:14 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Why not simply drive the speed limit?"

You must hate Toledo. If people drive legally, then the city will be deprived of $6 million. The city wants that money, and it will get it somehow.

I suggest a downtown Toledo tax. Any purchases made in downtown get taxed more than anywhere else in the city.

posted by jr on Jun 14, 2017 at 11:11:16 pm     #   2 people liked this

To all of the people who say "just drive the speed limit:"

1. The speed limits are artificially low. 70 mph on all highways should be a minimum. If it is really about safety, make the speed limits on all highways 25 mph: That will be really safe.

2. When the fines were started years ago, they were $90. Why are they now $120? Why isn't a $25 reminder enough to slow down?

3. As a taxpayer, why I am paying some Toledo cop $75,000 per year to sit with a camera and take pictures? Isn't this cop some highly trained specialist that we are somewhat understaffed within Toledo? Are all of the major crimes solved? Can't we outsource this "job" to some minimum wage hack?

4. Why is it OK to be policed like this? What is stopping them from putting a camera on your street and giving you a ticket every time you turn into your drive-way without using a turn signal? Are you "just drive the speed limit" people OK with that?

5. It is just bad PR with your citizens. It gets people to dislike the cops, and they don't need that. That is why I give them the finger: So they go to their bosses and say, "Hey, Boss, the people are on to our lying bullshit, and they don't like it."

posted by JohnnyMac on Jun 14, 2017 at 11:49:16 pm     #   2 people liked this

The parallel is a pretty good stretch but as the President just fired the Director of the FBI the question does come down to who works for who?

posted by Mariner on Jun 15, 2017 at 07:51:20 am     #  

Today, same cop, same time, back to the ProMedica location, but he wasn't out of his car yet, just sitting in there (probably avoiding the rain).

posted by JohnnyMac on Jun 15, 2017 at 08:34:05 am     #   1 person liked this

Help from above:

  • "Everyone simply needs to obey the law and drive the speed limit."
  • "Why not simply drive the speed limit?"

Sadly, those feeble suggestions miss the greater point.

The concern is not about speed limits, safety, nor the police. The current handheld speed camera project is a symptom.

The issue is about the decisions made by past and current mayors and city council people, which means, it's also a citizen apathy issue.

It's unfortunate that most Toledoans have no interest in local government.

Even non-voters should understand the gory details of city government enough to know the difference between a real safety issue and a money-grab.

Our budget is bloated. Toledo government wastes taxpayer dollars. Observe the asinine explanations that local elected officials give for squandering our money.

Since Toledo government fails to prioritize spending, fails to reduce the budget in a meaningful manner, and fails to obtain all of the necessary funding through so-called legitimate means, the politicians resort to creative scams.

Driving the speed limit does not resolve the long-term financial incompetence of city government.

posted by jr on Jun 15, 2017 at 04:04:15 pm     #   4 people liked this

A few problem's with radar gun cameras and red light/speed cameras.

A Police officer's job is to enforce the law and to be corrective by letting the public know what law/laws were broken if any. This is done at a traffic stop, where a conversation is held to inform the person/person's what needs to be done to fix it.. the red and blue lights displayed , the whole getting "pulled over" situation has a better effect to help correct your driving, In my Opinion. This whole sending a ticket in the mail is just a cash grab.

The speed limit needs to be raised on 475/75 as well.

posted by FranklinT on Jun 19, 2017 at 03:08:01 pm     #   2 people liked this

Interesting point.
I don't think that's how it is supposed to work, but I see your point. I think the police officer's job is to gather and collect evidence for the prosecutor, who then convinces a judge or jury to be "corrective."

They are not there to protect us, either (USSC ruled on that one). That is a personal responsibility.

They protect us by gathering evidence against people worse than us. Often times, they do that at a traffic stop. Now, if you think seeing red and blue lights has a corrective aspect, just imagine how effective a SWAT team and a bunch of drawn Sig Sauers can be. I depend on these guys occasionally pulling some good old fashioned gang bangers out of the car and proning them out across the road like a cheap deli tray. Works the same?

posted by justread on Jun 19, 2017 at 04:21:25 pm     #  

FTPD!

posted by kritter on Jun 21, 2017 at 01:51:38 am     #  

After taking the first three days of the work week off, same cop, same time on 475 Westbound at ProMedica.

posted by JohnnyMac on Jun 22, 2017 at 08:41:39 am     #  

My boyfriend said there was a cop by broadway and the high level bridge this morning and said it looked like he was using a camera gun.

It's a shame they aren't taking photos of all the cars that make illegal right turns on red at that intersection and don't yield to pedestrians or bikes

posted by classylady on Jun 22, 2017 at 01:17:56 pm     #  

Same cop, same time this morning (8:00 am), at the ProMedica overpass, taking pictures of westbound traffic on 475.

That stretch of road must at 8:00 am must be sooo dangerous.

posted by JohnnyMac on Jun 28, 2017 at 11:43:20 am     #   1 person liked this

I'm in a quandary over the officer with the radar on the highlevel bridge this morning. I was heading to the east and he was on the west bound side pointing in my direction. When I noticed him, I glanced at my speedometer and I wasn't even at the posted speed of 35 yet, but I was almost approaching the orange barrels/painting of the bridge. I have always slowed down because of the men always working close to the barrels and running thru traffic and jumping over the center to the other side and slowed down this morning as well. But there isn't a posted construction zone men working speed. So would he be giving tickets for speeding or for cars not slowing down for the painting crew?

posted by ToledoLatina on Jun 28, 2017 at 08:50:29 pm     #  

If it isn't posted as a construction zone they shouldn't be able to fine if you are going the posted speed limit but I wouldn't put it past the city. If I was still driving my car a lot I would be tempted to get a dash cam just in case I received a ticket so I'd have proof of the posted speed limits.

I have a real issue with them being at the highlevel anyway if they are just concerned about speeding. At least one other poster has mentioned drivers never yield to pedestrians there. I've crossed in that area many times where the driver made an illegal right turn on red while I was in the cross walk or made a left turn into the crosswalk when I was crossing and had the right of way.

I wonder if there was a cop there taking pics when that happened if they would have gotten in their car and pulled the driver over since that is a lot bigger safety hazard than going 40 in a 35 on the bridge where there is no oncoming traffic. I'd have to say no.

posted by jamesteroh on Jun 29, 2017 at 09:46:52 am     #   1 person liked this

Whose to say jamester? We currently do not have a civilian Safety Director on board. The police are policing themselves. Good work if you can get it.

posted by Mariner on Jun 29, 2017 at 01:52:56 pm     #   1 person liked this

I never have gotten a ticket yet, but how can this be fair. On the expressway everyday going downtown and back there are 1 or 2 per day by the overpasses everyday.

Now Michigan and some other States don't require a front plate. And if you made a game out of counting the cars in Toledo that have no front plate but a Ohio back plate, it's about 1 in 10. So the hand held device is held out getting the front plate only. That mean Michigan residents - maybe one out of every 14 cars on our expressway and the 1/10 Ohio residents without front plates don't have to worry. Toledo and Lucas County don't care about front plates, if they did you would see a lot of tickets when they do those drunk driving things, but I never seen one ticket yet. Are front plates only good for giving Ohio residents in Lucas County tickets to get speeding tickets? I would have no complaint if they got the plate in back after it passed them, then it would be fair to all States and those in the area without front Ohio plates.

posted by Nyse on Jun 30, 2017 at 06:17:09 pm     #  

Yeah. Exactly.

And look what people are doing with all the heroin that doesn't get found in traffic stops anymore, because traffic stops slow down revenue generation. Money over safety.

posted by justread on Jun 30, 2017 at 07:50:25 pm     #   1 person liked this

I received a ticket for no front plate many years ago and who can forget this famous no front plate stop?
http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/2014/05/13/Report-Sykes-claims-he-was-racially-profiled-while-driving-unfounded.html
If you drive without a front plate your giving the police a reason to pull you over anytime if they want to. This week was the first time I ever saw the cop shooting front plates on 475 at Promedica. In theory it he got a speeder he could just shoot the back plate after it went by.

posted by OldTimer on Jun 30, 2017 at 08:24:04 pm     #  

https://www.phantomplate.com/

posted by dino on Jun 30, 2017 at 09:43:35 pm     #  

That site looks like the Internet equivalent of a 2:00 A.M. infomercial.

If it works, I am all for it. Spendy, though. I would buy either the spray or the cover just out of spite.

posted by JoeyGee on Jul 01, 2017 at 07:47:54 am     #   1 person liked this

Traveled this morning around 8:30am from Lima area Exit 125 using 75N to the 475 split. Subconsciously counted over (10 or so) OHP troopers with all but (2) engaged in a traffic stop.

Write all you want about the real purpose of speed cameras (safety vs. revenue). I opine that a good number of drivers today have no respect for ANY posted speed limit ANYWHERE.

As a result, I fully support law enforcement's effort to address this disrespect. All actions have consequences (good/bad). If you can't afford to exercise your perceived freedom of choice to drive at whatever speed you desire, simply obey the law and save the cost of a ticket and any avoidance mechanism that may/may not work.

Pretty simple to me......but then I am a Pollack....

posted by ThePolishFalcon on Jul 02, 2017 at 09:18:34 pm     #  

"Write all you want about the real purpose of speed cameras (safety vs. revenue)."

I will continue to write about what I think are the real purposes. Thanks for granting us the permission to express an opinion.

When I see this happy horseshit in the Sun, Jul 2, 2017 Toledo Blade, then I start to have less respect for Toledo police.

Toledo police Lt. Jeff Sulewski said officers use the speed cameras to create a safer driving environment.

Lead-foot drivers are filling Toledo’s coffers faster than officials had projected.

Part of that money has already been spent. Toledo City Council last week approved the mayor’s plan to spend $250,000 more to hire new police officers a month earlier this year, from August to July.

Safer driving environment. Good one. For their next comedy act, law enforcement will claim that the should-be-illegal search checkpoints are meant to reduce drunk driving.

Toledo DOES NOT NEED more police officers. We don't need to maintain the current number of officers.

Toledo needs fewer police officers to match the continual decline in Toledo's population.

If city officials claim that Toledo's crime rate is higher now than at any time in the city's history, relative to the population, then I can understand the need for more officers.

Otherwise, this is the usual, demented political theater. Holy hell, the rubes should be able to grasp this concept by now.

The police union endorses local political candidates who do favors for the police.


"All actions have consequences ..."

Yeah, right.

For weeks, troglodytes have been detonating illegal bombs in West Toledo, and, of course, it has grown horribly worse over the past two weeks. The 4th of July holiday in Toledo begins in February.

Police hassle highway drivers on a sunny day in the name of safety. But when rockets are repeatedly red-glaring after 1:00 a.m. during weekdays, that's no big deal. It's simply knuckle-draggers being knuckle-draggers.


"... simply obey the law and save the cost of a ticket and any avoidance mechanism that may/may not work."

Obey the law. Wow. What a concept. But once again, that master of the obvious suggestion misses the point of the cameras.

# - The city's needs this revenue for the general fund, ironically, to help pay the salaries of police officers.

Money collected from traffic enforcement cameras is listed in the budget as revenue. The city expects a minimum amount of money from these cameras to keep the budget balanced. It's not bonus money for the rainy day fund.

Since it's expected revenue in the budget, then it's obviously a money grab. If nobody drove dangerously, then we would have a multi-million dollar budget hole that would have to be made up somewhere.

# - If people drive legally, then the city will be deprived of $6 million. The city wants that money, and it will get it somehow.

# - When speeding rackets and an illegal tax become significant revenue streams, then things are still a bit unhealthy in Toledo.

# - Driving the speed limit does not resolve the long-term financial incompetence of city government.


I will believe that the cameras are about safety when the camera revenue is not listed in Toledo's budget.

Making this camera discussion about safety is a clever distraction technique to take the focus away from Toledo government's sleaziness, thievery and reckless spending of taxpayer money.

Think about how stupid this sounds: Obey the driving laws, and Toledo government suddenly becomes intelligent.

posted by jr on Jul 03, 2017 at 12:14:41 am     #   7 people liked this

ThePolishFalcon posted at 09:18:34 PM on Jul 02, 2017:

Traveled this morning around 8:30am from Lima area Exit 125 using 75N to the 475 split. Subconsciously counted over (10 or so) OHP troopers with all but (2) engaged in a traffic stop.

Write all you want about the real purpose of speed cameras (safety vs. revenue). I opine that a good number of drivers today have no respect for ANY posted speed limit ANYWHERE.

As a result, I fully support law enforcement's effort to address this disrespect. All actions have consequences (good/bad). If you can't afford to exercise your perceived freedom of choice to drive at whatever speed you desire, simply obey the law and save the cost of a ticket and any avoidance mechanism that may/may not work.

Pretty simple to me......but then I am a Pollack....

You can have your punishment cameras, but I want a democracy. The fucking deer in Ottawa Hills have better representation than this.

posted by justread on Jul 03, 2017 at 04:31:02 am     #   5 people liked this

Well said JR. The police don't stop crime, for the most part they just show up after a crime is committed to take down the details.
We don't need more police. What is the city going to do hire more police and then put more hand held camera's out there?
Didn't the Ohio Supreme Court rule that red light camera's were illegal and the cities should stop using them? The main issue behind this was that a cop isn't present. So the city goes around this law and gets hand held camera's. Isn't this the way this has played out so far?
I agree to about the fireworks! I have to medicate my dogs because of these assholes.

posted by reggie on Jul 03, 2017 at 05:40:48 am     #   3 people liked this

After reading these posts am fixated on the word sleaziness. Gotta go wash my hands.

posted by Mariner on Jul 03, 2017 at 06:54:16 am     #  

Quick clarification. Hand sanitation necessary due to guvmint not the posters.

posted by Mariner on Jul 03, 2017 at 07:02:00 am     #  

You will be redder in Toledo.

posted by JoeyGee on Jul 03, 2017 at 08:16:26 am     #  

Why stop at speeding?

Why not hand-held "housing ordinance violation cameras?" City inspectors can just drive by your property, take a picture of uncut grass, peeling paint, or a broken window, and just mail you a ticket for $500? Why do we need a housing court or a prosecutor or a judge?

posted by JohnnyMac on Jul 03, 2017 at 10:42:11 am     #   6 people liked this

There ya go Johnny. Then they can ask for bank #'s and take auto deductions from your account no muss no fuss. After all we are feeding the furnace for their purposes not for the greater common good.

posted by Mariner on Jul 03, 2017 at 02:18:06 pm     #  

They're using motorcycle cops now. Saw two in the short drive between Kroger on Monroe/Secor and downtown (Waze didn't alert me either time but I made sure to report them on the app).

First one was on I-475 east bound by Promedica. Second one was on 75 South between the 475 split and Collingwood.

City could do really good with an out of towner passing through on the interstate who didn't know about the cameras. Have a few of them set up on I-75 and if a speeder didn't know better they could end up with a few tickets.

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 03, 2017 at 06:29:09 pm     #  

"First one was on I-475 east bound by Promedica. Second one was on 75 South between the 475 split and Collingwood."

Like shooting fish in a barrel. Speaking of cameras , I was driving east bound down Alexis from Talmadge. At approx. Secor I noticed that almost every support arm over the road that the traffic lights hang from had what looked like a small camera pointing down. Anyone know what these are doing?
Happy fourth of July to everyone!

posted by reggie on Jul 04, 2017 at 05:12:03 am     #  

^^
Any number of missions - such as capturing license plate info.

posted by Foodie on Jul 04, 2017 at 06:35:42 am     #  

Negative Foodie (dons his know-it-all hat and here we go again) Those sense if a vehicle is at the intersection and then activate the the light change cycle. Keeps traffic flowing on the primary road until needed by a car at the red light. There are no data measurements nor transmissions from them. For once traffic engineering had a good idea and it works as designed. (end of I know all things about everything)

posted by Mariner on Jul 04, 2017 at 07:13:53 am     #   1 person liked this

if an accident happens due to the reaction of the public at seeing a police officer with a radar gun at the side of the road, who is liable? i know the answer is whoever was driving, but based on the traffic patterns I saw this past weekend with cars slowing WAY down at the 475 / 75 split, I'm surprised there weren't more accidents. if this is a public safety issue, the cops are doing more harm than good.

posted by upso on Jul 04, 2017 at 04:31:10 pm     #   2 people liked this

The spray won't work on the speed cameras the cops are currently using. With the red light/speed fixed cameras when they took a photo of the plate there was a flash and the spray caused a bad glare with the flash and made the plate photo unreadable. The cameras the cops are using now don't have a flash.

Has anyone witnessed a cop taking pics at night or are they only out when it's light outside?

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 04, 2017 at 07:21:48 pm     #   1 person liked this

So this is at least the second incident where the police were ticketing people for not breaking the law (this incident and the one earlier this year when the cops thought the speed limit was 10 MPH than it actually was).

I'm sure in both cases the city isn't going to voluntarily refund the money.

I don't understand how it is legal for the city to keep money for fines for traffic offenses that never occurred.

And how are the kids being kept safe from cops with a camera? Snapping pics of plates of speeding cars isn't going to stop a kid from getting hit by a speeding motorist. If the cops were visible it would remind people they are in a school zone and to slow down.

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 05, 2017 at 11:30:04 pm     #   2 people liked this

When growing up was told repeatedly there are only two kinds of guys - the good guys and the phonies...which one do you want to be?

posted by Mariner on Jul 06, 2017 at 08:25:11 am     #  

And how are the kids being kept safe from cops with a camera?

Yell and tell, I guess.

posted by justread on Jul 06, 2017 at 09:26:14 am     #  

Mariner posted at 08:25:11 AM on Jul 06, 2017:

When growing up was told repeatedly there are only two kinds of guys - the good guys and the phonies...which one do you want to be?

I don't understand. What does that have to do with the city taking money from citizens who obey the law?

One of the great, well-thought-out arguments on the camera subject is simply to drive the speed limit. Well, people did that, and they still got ticketed by an abusive government-police setup.

Welcome to Toledo, Ohio where people get ticketed for obeying the law.

In my opinion, it makes no difference if the speed trap was accidental or intentional. This is what happens when an overreaching government is desperate for revenue.

If accidental, how does a police officer not know where a school zone begins and ends? What about signage? This seems so basic. The rest of us are expected to know and obey the laws, but apparently, it's okay if the police don't.

I find it hard to believe that this was an accidental speed trap. And did this speed trap exist longer than one day?

Many people don't have the time nor the desire to fight the city, therefore they pay the fines and move on with their lives.

Thanks to the Blade's reporting, usually by Ignazio Messina when the topic is city government, it's unknown whether the city returned the money that it nefariously obtained.

Councilman Rob Ludeman said the Feb. 1 tickets — issued with the city’s handheld speed camera devices — were dismissed because neither he nor his wife, Elaine Ludeman, were in a school zone.

“The picture showed obviously I was two and a half blocks away when he clocked me going the speed limit for where I was,” Mr. Ludeman said.

Thirty-eight people, including Mr. Ludeman and his wife, were ticketed at that site that morning, starting at 8:51 a.m. until 9:09 a.m.

Mr. and Mrs. Ludeman’s tickets — each costing $120 — were dismissed without the couple appearing for one of the regular appeals hearings held downtown at One Government Center.

“The reason Councilman Ludeman contacted me is because he knows me as chief,” Chief Kral said.

[Ludeman said,] "I showed the ticket to Chief Kral and the officer was ordered to move back 150 yards. I was not guilty of anything and the ticket was revoked."

That part is confusing to me. The Ludemans were clocked in the speed trap on Wed, Feb 1, 2017. When did Rob Ludeman show Kral the ticket? I have not been ticketed. How long does it take for the ticket to arrive in the mail, assuming that's how it's delivered?

When did Kral order the officer to move back 150 yards? Did all of this occur on the same day, Feb 1, 2017? Or was the officer out of position for more than one day, which would mean that many more people were improperly ticketed?

More from the Blade story:

But were the speeding tickets fixed for the other 36 motorists who got them for speeding at the same time in the same place?

Mr. Ludeman said he assumed everyone else who received tickets that morning near the school would have had them dismissed. He said the city should go back and refund those 18 people and dismiss the rest.

Yeah, that's helpful. A city councilperson making assumptions.

More about Toledo government's revenue-generating program that's fictitiously advertised as a safety issue:

Of the 29,615 handheld tickets issued between Jan. 1 and May 26, only 370 were dismissed; 5,701 were too new to be challenged by the vehicle owners; 6,103 were listed at “full default,” and 641 were sent to collections. The majority of the remaining tickets were paid.

Mayor Paula Hicks-Hudson budgeted $2.3 million from fines this year generated by handheld speed cameras. The city collected $1.84 million by the end of May, putting it on track to collect more than $4.3 million by the end of 2017 if the same numbers of speeders are nailed with those tickets monthly.

With the way things spread on the internet, it wouldn't surprise me if word gets around about Toledo's insidious gotcha attitude. And it wouldn't surprise me if the camera revenue drops below expectations over the second half of 2017 as people become more aware.

That's the goal, after all. Safe driving. The city won't mind if revenue fails to meet expectations. But obviously, the city has a backup plan: ticketing people who obey the law.

posted by jr on Jul 06, 2017 at 10:52:19 am     #   5 people liked this

I have been reading this post since the beginning so when I had to come back home to Toledo a little over a week ago I was very cautious driving. Of course the road conditions automatically heightened my sense of caution (doom) but the strange thing is I was there from Friday night of June 23 and left Tues the 27th. I drove up from Florida and the trip was a straight out of a cheap sci fi movie nightmare from start to finish. But even though I drove all over Toledo and some of the outlying areas I never once saw a cop. Not a one. Once I got back on I75 south that all changed but around Toledo not one LEO to be seen anywhere. Hummm.

posted by Wydowmaker on Jul 06, 2017 at 11:30:45 am     #  

Wydowmaker posted at 11:30:45 AM on Jul 06, 2017:

I have been reading this post since the beginning so when I had to come back home to Toledo a little over a week ago I was very cautious driving. Of course the road conditions automatically heightened my sense of caution (doom) but the strange thing is I was there from Friday night of June 23 and left Tues the 27th. I drove up from Florida and the trip was a straight out of a cheap sci fi movie nightmare from start to finish. But even though I drove all over Toledo and some of the outlying areas I never once saw a cop. Not a one. Once I got back on I75 south that all changed but around Toledo not one LEO to be seen anywhere. Hummm.

In Toledo, you no see cop. Cop see you. ;)

posted by justread on Jul 06, 2017 at 11:53:24 am     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2017/07/06/Toledo-Police-chief-speeding-refund.html

Updated story. It references one ticket on 2/15, but doesn't say if it's from where the officer supposedly moved 150 feet.

If these tickets occurred in February, when did Ludeman get his reversed? I would assume it would have been within a week of the original incident. Why is this just now coming to light?

I would have loved to see the "oh shit" look on Kral's face when this story broke.

posted by JoeyGee on Jul 06, 2017 at 12:11:54 pm     #   5 people liked this

Wydowmaker, I'm sure you passed many cops on the interstate here. You didn't know it because they are well hidden:)

When I was driving home around 7 last night one of the digital billboards that flashes the headlines for blade stories had the headline that said something to the effect "Councilman has police chief fix speeding ticket". I was hoping it would be a good scandal. They should have used a headline that said councilman issued speeding ticket for not speeding or better yet that TPD is issuing tickets for speeding to non-speeders.

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 06, 2017 at 02:40:30 pm     #  

jamesteroh posted at 02:40:30 PM on Jul 06, 2017:

Wydowmaker, I'm sure you passed many cops on the interstate here. You didn't know it because they are well hidden:)

When I was driving home around 7 last night one of the digital billboards that flashes the headlines for blade stories had the headline that said something to the effect "Councilman has police chief fix speeding ticket". I was hoping it would be a good scandal. They should have used a headline that said councilman issued speeding ticket for not speeding or better yet that TPD is issuing tickets for speeding to non-speeders.

That headline was pure 100% click trolling. They knew what they were doing.

posted by justread on Jul 06, 2017 at 02:46:54 pm     #  

justread posted at 02:46:54 PM on Jul 06, 2017:
jamesteroh posted at 02:40:30 PM on Jul 06, 2017:

Wydowmaker, I'm sure you passed many cops on the interstate here. You didn't know it because they are well hidden:)

When I was driving home around 7 last night one of the digital billboards that flashes the headlines for blade stories had the headline that said something to the effect "Councilman has police chief fix speeding ticket". I was hoping it would be a good scandal. They should have used a headline that said councilman issued speeding ticket for not speeding or better yet that TPD is issuing tickets for speeding to non-speeders.

That headline was pure 100% click trolling. They knew what they were doing.

They removed that story by the time I got a ladder and was able to click the link on the billboard, though. Bastards.

posted by JoeyGee on Jul 06, 2017 at 03:13:26 pm     #   1 person liked this

For some reason, those electronic billboards fry my retinas.

posted by jr on Jul 06, 2017 at 03:24:45 pm     #   2 people liked this

jamesteroh

I am sure you are right. I was pretty sure they were around. I was just astonished I never saw a marked vehicle or uniformed officer. Down here in Florida we have the cops in all sort of stealth vehicles. From sports cars to pick up trucks. But only rarely out of the cars. Sometimes though they will stand out on a sidewalk looking like a homeless person or ordinary pedestrian. But never hidden behind objects. I try to obey speed laws. But I was so nervous and jerky after my road trip from hell I kept way low in Toledo.

posted by Wydowmaker on Jul 06, 2017 at 03:27:04 pm     #  

Great. They're going to have to close the pools, take police and firemen off the streets and stop all road repairs just because a few whiny drivers want refunds because they were "obeying the law" or something stupid.

posted by JoeyGee on Jul 06, 2017 at 04:04:56 pm     #   2 people liked this

JoeyGee posted at 03:13:26 PM on Jul 06, 2017:
justread posted at 02:46:54 PM on Jul 06, 2017:
jamesteroh posted at 02:40:30 PM on Jul 06, 2017:

Wydowmaker, I'm sure you passed many cops on the interstate here. You didn't know it because they are well hidden:)

When I was driving home around 7 last night one of the digital billboards that flashes the headlines for blade stories had the headline that said something to the effect "Councilman has police chief fix speeding ticket". I was hoping it would be a good scandal. They should have used a headline that said councilman issued speeding ticket for not speeding or better yet that TPD is issuing tickets for speeding to non-speeders.

That headline was pure 100% click trolling. They knew what they were doing.

They removed that story by the time I got a ladder and was able to click the link on the billboard, though. Bastards.

They actually buy the billboards hoping it will translate into readers who follow the story from the ad. But that was funny. :D

posted by justread on Jul 06, 2017 at 04:40:14 pm     #   2 people liked this

and....to be more accurate...they own the billboard, so they don't even have to pay for the rotation/spot.

posted by Molsonator on Jul 06, 2017 at 09:03:50 pm     #  

"Why is this just now coming to light?"

That's a good question for chief Kral and city councilman Ludeman. Maybe they made a public statement in February, and I missed it.

I conducted a web search, and the only results that I found were related to this week's stories. Nothing from last winter about this issue.

To me, it seems that the only reason this has become public in July is because of the Toledo Blade's reporting.

And now five months later, the magnanimous police chief is offering a refund.

This statement from the police chief is lame:

“This was a case of us being in the wrong place and us owning that we made a mistake and making it right.”

The mistake was made on February 1, and now he's "owning" it on July 6. That ain't making it right.

In my opinion, you don't get to own the mistake when someone else exposes the possible cover-up. You should get saddled with an investigation.

The time to own it and admit to it publicly was last winter before anyone else discovered the problem.

It's a mistake if a police officer accidentally sets up in the wrong location for one morning.

It's not a mistake for Toledo police and city government to hide this error from the public for five months. That's more like malfeasance.

In my opinion, Toledo police/government got caught doing something unethical.

The first sentence from this Apr 17, 2017 Blade editorial about another city issue applies here too.

The words that come to mind are: blatant, sleazy, and shameless.

Toledo police issued 29,615 handheld tickets between January 1 and May 26. Were other mistakes made? Are we to believe that this "mistake" occurred only on one day at one location?

Less suspicion would exist today if the police chief and the councilman went public with the error when they first learned about it. And when was that?

The perceived cover-up is worse than the error. What did they know, and when did they know it? Who else in city government knew about this?


In the Jul 5, 2017 Blade story, note how councilman Ludeman gets a bit prickly at the Blade.

Mr. Ludeman contacted The Blade by email after the newspaper ran a story Sunday about handheld speed cameras that said he and two other councilmen had received such tickets this year. The councilman was upset that the article didn’t say his ticket had been dismissed.

“If you had called me or checked the facts the officer was clocking drivers right at the flashing light before the school zone,” the email said.

Here's another fact. Councilman Ludeman could have made the issue public months ago, but he chose otherwise.

Where's the transparency from city government? This is why we need local journalism.

This was a city councilman going directly to the police chief to have his ticket dismissed. I don't think that option exists for the rest of us who don't know Kral personally.

But why didn't these public servants inform the public last winter about the error? The media should lambaste Kral and Ludeman for failing to serve the public.

We know the date and location of the erroneous speed-clocking: Feb 1, 2017, near the Byrnedale school zone.

  • But when did Ludeman show Kral the ticket?
  • When did Kral order the officer to determine where the school zone existed?
  • How long did the bogus speed trap exist?
  • How many other bogus tickets were issued beyond the 38 known ones?
  • Has this bogus speed trap configuration been used elsewhere in the city?
  • Did Kral and Ludeman intentionally hide this error from the public?
  • Who else in city government knew about this problem?
  • Had Kral planned all along to make the refund statement on July 6, five months later, and the timing of the Blade stories was a massive coincidence?

posted by jr on Jul 06, 2017 at 11:01:40 pm     #   6 people liked this

I was under the impression that the school zone begins at the yellow school signs before the flashing lights. In this case the signs are 300 feet before the lights , so add 2 football fields to the school zone (1 in each direction). I would love to see a copy of his ticket photo to see exactly where he was when it was taken.

posted by OldTimer on Jul 07, 2017 at 05:46:46 am     #  

Franklin started this post on Feb. 10, 2017. That's a lot of shots over the bow that something wasn't just right. We reap what we sow.

posted by Mariner on Jul 07, 2017 at 06:42:48 am     #  

Either the Blade story was updated, or I overlooked the article's headline.

Earlier this week, we learned from the Blade:

  • Thirty-eight people were incorrectly ticketed between 8:51 a.m. and 9:09 a.m. on Feb 1, 2017 at the Byrnedale school zone.
  • Each ticket is a $120 fine.
  • Four tickets were dismissed.
  • 18 people paid their fines in full, including at least one person who paid an additional $20 for a late fee.
  • Toledo government sent "full default" notices to 14 people.
  • One person identified someone else as the driver that morning.
  • One person was suppose to receive a default notice.

I infer that Toledo government knew about this error months ago, yet city government was perfectly fine with stealing money from law-abiding citizens.

Without this week's Blade stories, it appears to me that city government had no intention of ever admitting to this error and offering a refund. Sending default notices to people who did nothing wrong is not owning a mistake.

How is that not criminal activity by city government? But since they make the rules and have the guns, then it's okay. The political thieves (redundant wording) rely on an apathetic citizenry.

City government got caught, and now after getting caught, they want to appear to be honorable. More like fraudulent.

From the updated Blade story:

More than 100 people nailed for speeding in a South Toledo school zone earlier this year will have their fines refunded as the city begins a review of signs at all school zones to avoid more mistakes.

In a few days, the number went from 38 to more than 100. What is the real number of falsely ticketed motorists from all around the city?

Maybe every ticket distributed from a school zone in 2017 should be reviewed and possibly refunded.

100 percent of the blame for this falls on city government, yet the mayor, Ludeman, etc. will all likely get re-elected this fall. Steady as she goes, Chekov.

posted by jr on Jul 07, 2017 at 11:03:06 am     #   4 people liked this

They may have the rules, but truth be told, the citizenry has the guns.

There are around 25,000 police officers in the state of Ohio.

There were more than 25,000 concealed carry permits issued in Ohio in the third quarter of 2016 alone bringing the number of citizens licensed to carry to over 500,000. There are 20 times the number of private citizens licensed to carry than the total estimated number of law enforcement officers in the state.

This is in addition to the more than 4,000,000 Ohioans who own firearms. (Based on 2008 study, inflated by 3% to account for the decade, less 63,000 rounding down to 4M from 4.63M. Also based on 2015 population estimate of 11.61M.)

posted by justread on Jul 07, 2017 at 11:40:32 am     #  

Thirty-eight people were incorrectly ticketed between 8:51 a.m. and 9:09 a.m. on Feb 1, 2017 at the Byrnedale school zone.

38 tickets in an 18 minute time period. That is over two tickets a minute and if they are issuing tickets at the rate over 125 tickets an hour.

It would be interesting to find out how many cars weren't ticketed. I realize this is a school zone but in some areas like Promedica/I-75 where there are no accidents, if more cars are speeding than not then maybe they need to consider increasing the speed limit.

It's obvious they aren't too concerned with a safety incident in these areas if they are allowing 125 cars an hour to speed in the zone without pulling anyone over.

posted by classylady on Jul 07, 2017 at 11:42:06 am     #   1 person liked this

You're also required to go downtown and to court to fight the tickets.

If someone from out of town that lives an hour away gets a wrongfully issued ticket it means spending the gas and time to come to Toledo to fight it and the missed time from work. Pretty good racket.

posted by classylady on Jul 07, 2017 at 11:44:19 am     #   3 people liked this

Toledo police and government give me a whole new sense of respect for Berkey Bob and his infamous Territorial Rd speed trap. At least he stops you and does it the right way.

posted by JoeyGee on Jul 07, 2017 at 12:00:18 pm     #   2 people liked this

Oops, not Territorial. Whatever road the main drag of Berkey is.

posted by JoeyGee on Jul 07, 2017 at 12:01:22 pm     #  

How awful that the City is only now reviewing School Zones in order to make sure that the high-dollar tickets they issue are warranted.

It's surprising to me that the officers involved in shooting these pics were apparently unaware of the boundaries of the school zones that they were so rigorously enforcing. It's disgusting to me that the supervisors didn't train the rank and file better OR at least give them specific directions on how and where to use the portable cameras.

I recalled reading that the police reviewed each photo to ensure that a violation actually took place. Here's the quote and the link to the Blade article:

Toledo and Northwood both contracted with a for-profit company, Redflex, which bears the cost of installing and maintaining the cameras and film. Police in each city review all citations and the film before tickets are mailed.

http://www.toledoblade.com/frontpage/2005/06/19/Some-drivers-fume-see-red-over-cameras.html

Granted this was a while ago, long before the City deployed it's latest portable affront to its citizenry, but TPD used to review each violation. Either this review process has gone away or it is completely lame.

Now we are asked to believe that the only time fines for School Zone violations were ever improper was for 18 minutes during one morning in February????? That sounds like bullshit to me.

posted by jimavolt on Jul 07, 2017 at 12:30:50 pm     #   3 people liked this

Yeah and what the hell is with the gov. and 18mins. And where is Rose Mary Woods when you need her foot on the button.

posted by Mariner on Jul 07, 2017 at 01:00:49 pm     #  

JoeyGee posted at 12:00:18 PM on Jul 07, 2017:

Toledo police and government give me a whole new sense of respect for Berkey Bob and his infamous Territorial Rd speed trap. At least he stops you and does it the right way.

A couple years ago, the Toledo Blade ranted about Woodville's proclivity to dole out speeding tickets.

  • February 2015 - Toledo Blade - Featured Editorial - Ticket trap


But were some of Woodville's tickets given to motorists who obeyed the law like in Toledo? And did Woodville's government attempt to hide the error like in Toledo?

The February 2015 Blade featured editorial even called for a boycott of Woodville's businesses.

The Village of Woodville has abused northwest Ohio motorists for far too long with its blatant use of speed traps. If a boycott of the town’s businesses is needed finally to get the attention of its public officials, so be it.


This week's news stories by the Blade were good, but will the Blade editorial board pound Toledo government for its abuse the way the board did, regarding Woodville?

And what does the Blade editorial board think about Toledo's traffic enforcement cameras? Here are two opinions from 2015.


Here is what the Blade editorial board believed in 2015:

... in Toledo, where the cameras have been used responsibly to enforce traffic laws in high-risk areas.

Most communities that use cameras, including Toledo, do so for valid law-enforcement purposes.

If Toledo is engaging in the cash grab ... [ If ?? ]

Toledo, which raises millions of dollars from camera citations each year, must be particularly careful not to become dependent on the cameras for revenue.

Hah. Too late for that.


Excerpts from justread's February 2015 comment :

Had to chuckle when a newspaper that defends automated speed and red light traps in Toledo goes after Woodville that writes an average of 3.2 tickets per day. The people in Woodville are like, yeah... and your roads suck too.


2015, that's long before the high use of the handheld cameras in Toledo.

Has the Blade editorial board's opinion changed? I don't think so.

But aside from any who are ticketed by mistake — who can dispute the tickets — these are people who violated the traffic laws. If they did not want to pay traffic tickets, they should not have earned them.

Teaching drivers to expect traffic cameras, even when they can’t see them, could improve their behavior on all the roads.

And those who don’t learn can pay more toward government services, so that law-abiding citizens can pay less.

Unless the cameras are used in Toledo, Ohio where it's possible for law-abiding citizens to be ticketed.

posted by jr on Jul 07, 2017 at 01:10:27 pm     #   1 person liked this

Is the company that gets a cut on each ticket refunding their portion too or is the City saying they will refund the whole amount ? I believe it is $30 per ticket that has to come from one or the other

posted by Hoops on Jul 07, 2017 at 01:55:00 pm     #  

I took advantage of this beautiful weather and went for a long bike ride this morning and there was a speed cop on Lagrange the Green Belt parkway on the east side of the street getting cars going north on the Parkway.

I did some biking for about an hour after the trail ended and decided to take the trail back and there was a cop in a van at Cherry and Greenbelt but couldn't tell if he was taking pictures or not and the same cop was still on LaGrange. It pissed me off on the way back because a car came close to hitting me by attempting to make a rolling turn on red at Lagrange and came close to hitting me. He almost caused me go wipe out because he did stop but was in the crosswalk which runs parallel with the trail and I had to swerve to miss him. If the cops are so damn concerned with safety the cop should have pulled him over but I guess he wouldn't make nearly as much money for the city by pulling over a driver that is creating a true safety situation as he would with the 100 speeding tickets he could give in that time period pulling that driver over and ticketing them.

I really wish I would have had a go pro camera on my helmet and could have sent it to the clowns at one Government center.

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 08, 2017 at 04:11:49 pm     #  

I hope the cop at the section 8 apartment complex at Cherry and the Parkway wasn't speedtrapping. That would be really crappy of the city to give motorists who were speeding on the parkway two tickets being less than a mile apart

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 08, 2017 at 04:12:54 pm     #  

The Greenbelt parkway must be a very dangerous roadway on a sunny clear dry Saturday afternoon.

posted by JohnnyMac on Jul 08, 2017 at 09:41:05 pm     #  

The conditions were very dangerous when I was biking. Was around 10:30 and 72 and sunny and dry. On the return trip back was even more dangerous it had to be a degree or two hotter by then

I was surprised they were speed trapping since traffic was pretty light but I'm sure every car was speeding. They are usually just before the i75 entrance so he must have decided to move a little south today from their usual spot.

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 08, 2017 at 10:24:53 pm     #  

Sun, Jul 9, 2017 - Toledo Blade editorial - Councilman calling to get speeding ticket “fixed” looks bad because it is bad


This part of the editorial, however, is bad:

And to his credit, Toledo Police Chief George Kral has said the city will refund the fines of others ticketed along with the Ludemans that day.

Nope. No credit for the chief who apparently hid this error from the public for months.


Other parts of the editorial were well-written:

A Toledo city councilman calling the police chief to get speeding tickets for himself and his wife “fixed” looks bad because it is bad.

But if the city is making a habit of wrongly citing innocent drivers because they know those drivers are unlikely to fight the tickets, that’s worse.

... the city is apparently stooping to send a tax collector with a speed gun in his hand out onto the streets of the city, mostly in order to raise funds for the city.

Somebody made that call, and it was not an individual cop.

"A tax collector with a speed gun in his hand." Valid description.

And that's a good place for an investigation. Did someone higher-up in the police department make that decision, or, as I believe, did the decision come from the mayor's office?

That section of the editorial indicates a slight change in the editorial board's thinking, regarding these so-called safety cameras. I infer that this one editorial writer seems to be admitting that Toledo's use of the handheld cameras is for a money-grab.


More from the editorial:

Meanwhile, the lowly everyday citizen feels he must pay the ticket from one of these encounters, rightly accused or not. The average Joe has to go through the hearing process set up for such citations. He probably has to take time off work for that.

So, considering all those factors he most likely will simply pay the fine, especially if he lives out of town. And evidence has shown that more than half of such tickets are issued to out-of-towners.

The privileged person can apparently just make a call to the right person.

And in my opinion, that privileged person, councilman Rob Ludeman, participated in the alleged cover-up to hide the error from the public.

Ludeman, like other privileged dead weight, needs bounced from council this fall by the voters. And if the voters replace mayor Hicks-Hudson this fall, then we might have a new police chief next year.

The citizens have some power to make decisions.


More from the editorial:

Every community has its powerful cliques of movers and shakers, but the sense of entitlement for those people in Toledo seems especially brazen.

Toledo’s handheld speed cameras really could be used to make the city safer. They could be deployed to construction zones or to residential streets where police have received complaints about speeding.

Fuckin' A.

But that is evidently not how Toledo is using them.

Moreover, these tickets are the source of some of Toledo’s magically appearing piles of found money this summer.


Here's the good closing from the editorial writer, and hopefully, the Toledo Blade hounds the city for answers. The Blade is most likely the only local media org that is capable of making city government nervous.

From the editorial:

Here is the question:

Did the ticket revenue exceed expectations because officers have been directed to nab drivers who are not actually speeding?

Fair play and the city’s good name are at risk.


An investigation could reveal that the practice of ticketing people who obeyed the law was not an isolated incident. An investigation could reveal who made the decision to place tax collectors with speed guns along Toledo roadways. An investigation could reveal who all knew about the one known error, and why it was hidden from the public for so long.

posted by jr on Jul 09, 2017 at 01:28:13 pm     #   3 people liked this

Saw two more today in the downtown area when I was out biking.

When I exited the bike trail on Greenbelt parkway near the I-280 entrance there was one back in his usual spot just south of the I-280 entrance getting people going northbound on Greenbelt.

Biking down summit I saw one in a new place. He was at the old Andres bar parking entrance and it looked like he was getting people going northbound on Summit. At least this time it was doubtful any motorist speeding would have encountered both cops.

Perfect biking weather this morning, low 70s, light breeze, clear disability, dry pavement. I guess the safety conditions for motorists were different than those for bikers this morning:)

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 09, 2017 at 02:07:16 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/2017/07/20/Toledo-motorists-receive-refunds-for-improper-speeding-tickets.html

Sounds like a very expensive CYA. I hope the Blade keeps digging on this. They have TPD very nervous and that's how things are supposed to work. Public entities her act with impunity because they believe no one is watching.

Now these refunded tickets are actually COSTING tax dollars since they can't get refunds for the cut sent to the private company behind this sham. Ok it's just eating into the ill gotten profits of "safety", but still...

posted by JoeyGee on Jul 20, 2017 at 11:15:58 am     #   1 person liked this

Makes me wonder how many other tickets have been issued in error and not refunded.

When I go biking I'm seeing a cop at Lagrange and the Greenbelt Parkway more times than not

posted by jamesteroh on Jul 20, 2017 at 01:43:26 pm     #  

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