Toledo Talk

What UT wants UT gets.

Can we agree that the only reason the city wants to transform Secor Road into a tree lined boulevard is not for safety but for UT? When visitors come to games, etc. 90% probably exit I-475 at Secor. I'm sure UT complained that the section of Secor between Central and Bancroft are not impressive enough of a gateway to Rocket Land. If this weren't the case all the city had to request was a slight widening of Secor without the elaborate roundabouts and no center island. Look at how the city kissed UT's ass on Dorr Street. Disgusting.

created by kritter on May 19, 2017 at 12:50:29 pm     Comments: 45

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Comments ... #

Show us on the doll where UT hurt you.

posted by justread on May 19, 2017 at 12:57:56 pm     #   15 people liked this

Is this a poll? I check "Do Not Agree".

posted by slowsol on May 19, 2017 at 01:12:15 pm     #   9 people liked this

I don't think that we should "kiss their ass" but I don't see how there is any harm in cooperating. UT brings substantial financial benefit to the community, in terms of jobs, tax revenue, R&D investment, etc. The students also spend money in town with rent, bars, entertainment and more (and they attract these to the area as well). Lastly some stay here creating their own jobs and businesses that (hopefully) don't evaporate when the next big legacy manufacturer decides to make their product in Elbonia because it's $0.02 cheaper....and who doesn't like tree lined boulevards?

posted by breeman on May 19, 2017 at 01:16:06 pm     #   2 people liked this

That section of Secor is dangerously narrow. It needs to be widened considerably.

posted by westsidebob on May 19, 2017 at 01:21:07 pm     #   10 people liked this

Is there news on this front? Last I heard, OH put the nix to it and that was that.

posted by BulldogBuckeye on May 19, 2017 at 01:28:35 pm     #  

Nah, traffic safety is the main reason followed by the fact that Toledo has a total of three North-South artery roads (Reynolds, Detroit, and Byrne / Secor). Beautifying a gateway is just a bonus.

The proposed changes would be good for everybody, except maybe those who have to give up their homes. The issue was discussed a little in a couple old threads. My question is: why was the option for widening only on the Ottawa Hills side? Would widening on the Old Orchard side go too close to people's homes? I'm looking at google maps right now and the yards look deep enough.

posted by mixman on May 19, 2017 at 01:40:50 pm     #  

The plan not only wanted to widen the lanes, but also add a 10 foot wide tree lined center medium. There are fewer homes on the Ottawa Hills side so therefore it would be cheaper to remove them. The plan to add a roundabout at Secor/Bancroft/Indian is just plain stupid. The new roundabout by Springfield High School has already had 3 car/ kid incidences this school year already. Roundabouts are not pedestrian friendly and work best in rural areas

posted by OldTimer on May 19, 2017 at 02:00:41 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Roundabouts are not pedestrian friendly and work best in rural areas."

Why do people in this area hate the roundabouts so much? Oh, wait! I know! It's because people in this region have no effing clue what "YIELD" means. Roundabouts are really simple to navigate as long as you understand that traffic in the roundabout has the right of way - another concept not well understood around here - and you must YIELD to that traffic.

Roundabouts are one of the most efficient ways to move traffic (and keep it moving) - especially in areas where traditional intersections are difficult whether they be urban, suburban or rural.

Realizing I am in a very small minority, I LOVE them.

posted by Foodie on May 19, 2017 at 02:38:29 pm     #   5 people liked this

I have no problem with them, but they are not pedestrian friendly.
To just go straight a pedestrian has to cross 3 to 4 lanes of traffic, without the benefit of a light and hope that the drivers realize pedestrians have the right of way. And the fact is most drivers don't get it. The incidences at Springfield only reinforce that fact.

posted by OldTimer on May 19, 2017 at 02:54:34 pm     #  

I don't mind driving on roundabouts but agree with others that they are very unfriendly to passengers. But then Toledo is far from a pedestrian friendly city. And there are quite a few pedestrians in that area with UT Nearbly

posted by jamesteroh on May 19, 2017 at 03:30:23 pm     #  

Foodie posted at 02:38:29 PM on May 19, 2017:

"Roundabouts are not pedestrian friendly and work best in rural areas."

Why do people in this area hate the roundabouts so much? Oh, wait! I know! It's because people in this region have no effing clue what "YIELD" means. Roundabouts are really simple to navigate as long as you understand that traffic in the roundabout has the right of way - another concept not well understood around here - and you must YIELD to that traffic.

Roundabouts are one of the most efficient ways to move traffic (and keep it moving) - especially in areas where traditional intersections are difficult whether they be urban, suburban or rural.

Realizing I am in a very small minority, I LOVE them.

I echo your adoration. Unless, of course, you have a poorly designed disaster like the city built at the intersection of Broadway/Glendale/River/Harvard. You have interior traffic yielding to incoming traffic, which confusing the hell out of everyone. I get dangerously cut off there at least once a month.

posted by slowsol on May 19, 2017 at 03:33:42 pm     #   1 person liked this

Ever wait at the light at Cheltenham and Monroe? I would advise you do wait because it's a 50/50 chance that someone on Monroe will fly through the light. The first thing my boss told me when I moved to Toledo in 2003 was watch out for cars running red lights. It's my way of saying maybe roundabouts have a place in Toledo because it eliminates some red lights? However, if Toledo drivers are too stupid to obey simple traffic laws like stopping at red lights, how can they be trusted to maneuver through roundabouts?

posted by westsidebob on May 19, 2017 at 03:42:29 pm     #   4 people liked this

I love the Spring Meadows roundabouts, what a huge time saver in that area.

posted by SensorG on May 19, 2017 at 03:55:43 pm     #   2 people liked this

http://www.toledoblade.com/Economy/2017/05/04/UT-researchers-University-adds-3-3-billion-boost-to-area-economy.html

That's a lot of money.

I don't remember hearing anything about UT in the whole Secor discussion and am surprised they have not been more involved. You make a great point. UT would benefit greatly if that stretch was more attractive and I wouldn't blame them one bit for seeing that it happens.

College enrollment is tied to the economy, but inversely. As economies improve, enrollment drops since less people see the need to go back to, or start, school. With state funding down, universities have to fight for students. Like it or not, aesthetics are HUGE.

The city could raze every house on Secor and make it six lanes wide painted midnight blue and gold for all I care. I'm not saying UT is perfect by any stretch, but they have enough of a regional impact they should get some favors now and then.

posted by JoeyGee on May 19, 2017 at 04:07:53 pm     #   2 people liked this

Sure, roundabouts have been in Europe for a long long time and we know all about the benefits. But what has happened, recently, that all of a sudden roundabouts are popping up all over the place? Nothing has changed, by and large, from decade to decade that make the benefits of a roundabout more applicable in 2017 vs 2007 vs 1977 vs 1957 vs 1937. Intersections needed improvements then, and roundabouts were deemed not the solution. So why is this happening now? Who flipped the switch? I have to believe it comes down to people making...wait for it.....money on them. And it starts in Columbus and the state capitals.

posted by BulldogBuckeye on May 19, 2017 at 04:53:32 pm     #   2 people liked this

The roundabout at Broadway and Glendale that Slowsol talked above has been there for more than 50 years. I parked my car in the circle of grass almost 50 years ago to watch the fireworks on the forth when they used to be set off at Walbridge park.

posted by OldTimer on May 19, 2017 at 05:46:46 pm     #   2 people liked this

BulldogBuckeye posted at 04:53:32 PM on May 19, 2017:

Sure, roundabouts have been in Europe for a long long time and we know all about the benefits. But what has happened, recently, that all of a sudden roundabouts are popping up all over the place? Nothing has changed, by and large, from decade to decade that make the benefits of a roundabout more applicable in 2017 vs 2007 vs 1977 vs 1957 vs 1937. Intersections needed improvements then, and roundabouts were deemed not the solution. So why is this happening now? Who flipped the switch? I have to believe it comes down to people making...wait for it.....money on them. And it starts in Columbus and the state capitals.

No, blame the generation of kids that grew up watching European Vacation. Those kids are now the decision makers that can make dreams come true by approving roundabouts, allowing all of us to drive through a roundabout and saying "look kids. Big Ben. Parliament".

It never gets old. Never.

posted by JoeyGee on May 19, 2017 at 06:57:53 pm     #   1 person liked this

That's a lot of money.

I absolutely laugh at these 'economic impact studies' when they come out. The Zoo had one too ... timed perfectly with a levy request. The problem with these studies is the assumption that if the entity was not there, the money would disappear. Ummmmm, if UT was not there, there would be other places to spend the money that UT gets as revenue, and thus that would create jobs for people at those other places. Same with the Zoo. Yes, both bring money from outside the area; but that doesn't mean that whatever filled that gap would not do the same.

posted by MsArcher on May 19, 2017 at 08:41:33 pm     #   3 people liked this

SensorG posted at 03:55:43 PM on May 19, 2017:

I love the Spring Meadows roundabouts, what a huge time saver in that area.

I'll admit when I first heard they were putting a roundabout there, I swore I would stop shopping at that Walmart because I thought it would be an absolute nightmare - how do you take 6 lanes of traffic and shove it into a 2 lane roundabout.

But with the way they rolled it out - during the underpass construction so it was very limited maneuvering but giving people time to adjust to it, I think it actually works very well and does stream traffic very efficiently.

Drivers and pedestrians both have to be very defensive when going through a roundabout, but I tend to be very defensive in my driving all of the time.

posted by MsArcher on May 19, 2017 at 08:47:53 pm     #   3 people liked this

slowsol posted at 03:33:42 PM on May 19, 2017:
Foodie posted at 02:38:29 PM on May 19, 2017:

"Roundabouts are not pedestrian friendly and work best in rural areas."

Why do people in this area hate the roundabouts so much? Oh, wait! I know! It's because people in this region have no effing clue what "YIELD" means. Roundabouts are really simple to navigate as long as you understand that traffic in the roundabout has the right of way - another concept not well understood around here - and you must YIELD to that traffic.

Roundabouts are one of the most efficient ways to move traffic (and keep it moving) - especially in areas where traditional intersections are difficult whether they be urban, suburban or rural.

Realizing I am in a very small minority, I LOVE them.

I echo your adoration. Unless, of course, you have a poorly designed disaster like the city built at the intersection of Broadway/Glendale/River/Harvard. You have interior traffic yielding to incoming traffic, which confusing the hell out of everyone. I get dangerously cut off there at least once a month.

I also love the roundabouts and that one on Bway just needs some better signage. I've never heard anyone call that a roundabout until you did, but that is exactly what it is and people really have no clue how to drive it, just like the new ones. I worked at UTMC for 21 years and went that way from the East Side every day. The stupidity at that intersection is boundless. They should put one at Williams/Broadway/Summit/Central Terminal Plaza Rd, talk about a demolition derby!

posted by nana on May 19, 2017 at 08:54:10 pm     #  

Being overly defensive at roundabouts is what people hate. You only need to yield when there is a car in the circle. I would say that 80% of the time when I have to follow some tool through a roundabout they stop completely even when no traffic is approaching. There are just too many dumbsh!t drivers in the Toledo area who do not know the meaning of yield.

posted by kritter on May 20, 2017 at 02:01:17 am     #   1 person liked this

UT is a spoiled little college who wants to think they are a big time academic institution. Let's see, they hired a UT Campus Police Officer who went and killed one of the female students he was hired to protect. Real bang up job their Rocket Land. Older Toledoans know that the nickname of UT applies, "Bancroft High."

posted by kritter on May 20, 2017 at 02:08:16 am     #  

Ok, if you are under 25 and you don't get the above reference, it is because it happened before you were born. In early 1992, then 22-year old rookie cop named Jeffrey Hodge ended up being the perp in the death of a student, Melissa Anne Hurstrum. It was a terrible crime, and I remember UT president Frank Horton, the father of four daughters, openly weeping. It was also a shock to the community and to UT, because early in the case he was a white knight. Nobody knew he was a killer until his stories started unraveling and evidence started turning up.
Of course UT was not complicit in the psychopathic storm brewing inside of Jeffrey Hodge unseen to all until it was too late.
Sad story. Sad to see it used in a poorly articulated rant against the 2017 University.

posted by justread on May 20, 2017 at 03:08:42 am     #   3 people liked this

It's been so long, he actually comes up for parole in 5 years.
And it was Herstrum, I think.

posted by justread on May 20, 2017 at 03:13:02 am     #   1 person liked this

Is that a sound of an ax grinding I hear.

posted by In_vin_veritas on May 20, 2017 at 08:00:56 am     #   2 people liked this

The reference to that sad event is misplaced in this thread. Enough said about the monsters who reside with us undiscovered until they act. Returning to the topic Buckeye has a valid point concerning the motivation of placing these road engineering changes wherever possible lately. Somebody has to be making a buck somewhere. Or maybe it's the bored housewife syndrome who needs to move around the living room furniture every thirty days in order to feel some sense of control over life's destinies.

posted by Mariner on May 20, 2017 at 08:05:16 am     #  

kritter obviously has some issues. The rants look similar to someone I know. Best to ink up the "Banned" stamp.

posted by Molsonator on May 20, 2017 at 08:05:32 am     #   5 people liked this

Returning to the topic Buckeye has a valid point concerning the motivation of placing these road engineering changes wherever possible lately.

Some of this is driven by state dollars - for years, even decades, the state has offered up money to put in roundabouts, going all the way back to the one put in at Mitchaw and ... is it Sylvania or Brint? That's the first one the county put in, mostly with state dollars.

Being overly defensive at roundabouts is what people hate. You only need to yield when there is a car in the circle.

When I say defensive, I meant when I'm in the roundabout I pay careful attention to those approaching it to make sure they see me and give me the right-of-way. Only had to slam on the brakes once, but it did avoid an accident because I was being cautious even when I'm in the roundabout.

I'll leave most of the UT police issue alone, except for saying many universities did not have full blown police departments several decades ago, they were more like 'mall' cops (apologies to the mall cops who actually aren't just mall cops anymore due to the rise in gang violence and terrorism). And many police departments (not just campus police, but municipal police departments) had not started doing psyche evals yet back then. What status UT's was back in the 90's, I don't know. But I remember that. I was at UT at the time. It was scary as sh!t and has no place in the discussion of road work around UT today.

posted by MsArcher on May 20, 2017 at 08:24:25 am     #   1 person liked this

Regarding roundabouts and pedestrians...

My first experience with roundabouts was as a student at Michigan State in the early 90s. There were several on campus, including on Shaw Lane. (The main east-west road cutting through campus.)

Those roundabouts get a significant amount of pedestrian, bicycle, and automobile traffic daily. Quite a bit more pedestrian traffic than you'd see near UT's campus, considering student enrollment is more than double.

I don't know if a roundabout at Bancroft/Indian/Secor is the right thing to do, but I know they can work with pedestrians.

posted by mom2 on May 21, 2017 at 10:43:54 pm     #  

justread posted at 03:08:42 AM on May 20, 2017:

Ok, if you are under 25 and you don't get the above reference, it is because it happened before you were born. In early 1992, then 22-year old rookie cop named Jeffrey Hodge ended up being the perp in the death of a student, Melissa Anne Hurstrum. It was a terrible crime, and I remember UT president Frank Horton, the father of four daughters, openly weeping. It was also a shock to the community and to UT, because early in the case he was a white knight. Nobody knew he was a killer until his stories started unraveling and evidence started turning up.
Of course UT was not complicit in the psychopathic storm brewing inside of Jeffrey Hodge unseen to all until it was too late.

Sad story. Sad to see it used in a poorly articulated rant against the 2017 University.

I remember. Of course, I'm well over 25. I was a senior in HS when that happened, and my cousin was a UT nursing student at the time. She'd had classes with Melissa Anne.

I'm not sure what the reference to her death has to do with the traffic roundabout discussion, but it definitely was a horrible, horrible tragedy. :(

posted by mom2 on May 21, 2017 at 10:52:13 pm     #  

It's not a roundabout thread. It is a "University of Toledo sucks" thread. It's number two of a two-part series.

posted by justread on May 22, 2017 at 05:39:55 am     #   2 people liked this

Why would houses on the Old Orchard side would need to be removed? Almost every one between Bancroft and Hughes has a fairly deep yard, maybe 40-50 feet. Take out a few trees and move the sidewalk. Is there a minimum frontage requirement? Why not create a variance? Giving up 15-20 feet of yard is better than an entire home, and cheaper. The tree-lined median could be eliminated.

It seems like the plan was nixed due to outcry from the 11 Ottawa Hills homeowners and the school district losing tax revenue. I understand people not wanting to move, but if the road is ever going to be fixed something needs to be done.

posted by mixman on May 22, 2017 at 07:18:11 am     #   1 person liked this

Sure, roundabouts have been in Europe for a long long time and we know all about the benefits. But what has happened, recently, that all of a sudden roundabouts are popping up all over the place? Nothing has changed, by and large, from decade to decade that make the benefits of a roundabout more applicable in 2017 vs 2007 vs 1977 vs 1957 vs 1937. Intersections needed improvements then, and roundabouts were deemed not the solution. So why is this happening now? Who flipped the switch?

Every year, there are 10% more cars on the road. Until you're ready to go back to 1937 public transportation, we're going to need new methods of traffic engineering. The East Coast has had roundabouts and jug handles for left-hand turns for decades.

We are just catching up.

posted by Anniecski on May 22, 2017 at 11:43:05 am     #   1 person liked this

Funny how this UT thread keeps changing in a roundabout way.

posted by OldTimer on May 22, 2017 at 12:13:46 pm     #   1 person liked this

Here's a roundiebout for you. The world famous Clearwater beach suicide thrill ride. Take a Dramamine and enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BISSSrHiW9A

posted by Wydowmaker on May 22, 2017 at 12:19:09 pm     #  

Wydowmaker posted at 12:19:09 PM on May 22, 2017:

Here's a roundiebout for you. The world famous Clearwater beach suicide thrill ride. Take a Dramamine and enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BISSSrHiW9A

I about lost my afternoon bourbon.

posted by madjack on May 22, 2017 at 01:00:30 pm     #  

There are two roundabouts I have to contend with on an irregular basis in Columbus. I hate 'em both.

Roughly half the drivers in Columbus have the same self-centered, egotistical attitude as ex-president Obama while he's taking his tea in the rose garden. The other half demonstrate all the sensitivity, benevolence, and magnanimity of President Trump when he's just learned he can simultaneously fire a family's primary breadwinner and foreclose on a major property. Put this group in a contest for space and a place in line, then stand back and watch the fender benders happen.

As far as being a pedestrian on a roundabout, you can forget about it if you value your health and well-being. It isn't if you'll get hit by a car; it's when.

Bicyclists tend to travel in packs and stick to well-known bicycle areas. I suspect that bike gangs are forming for self-protection.

posted by madjack on May 22, 2017 at 01:15:22 pm     #  

Rossford is putting in a roundabout at Lime City and Dixie (aka River Rd) near Island View Park. The major carrot the city is being enticed with is grant money for a bike pike that would go from Island View Park (on the west side of the street) cross Dixie and run parallel to Lime City to All Saints Church. All I can say is....there is no way in hell this will be pedestrian friendly. This is in a neighborhood and crossing the Dixie is required to get to schools and parks. Just a bad bad idea, and for the life of me, I cant understand why our city leaders are insistent on having the roundabout.

posted by BulldogBuckeye on May 22, 2017 at 02:53:49 pm     #  

Roundabouts = $$$$ from gov't funding to improve roadways.

It seems the perception/fact is the roundabout creates efficiencies with fuel consumption because it contributes to constant traffic flow rather than the stop-go of signals/signs.

So, if you want gov't money for your road improvements, figure out a way to include a roundabout in your planning.

This is the concept of the proposed roundabout at S. Detroit/Byrne/Devonshire intersection. More $$$ will be available to reconstruct S. Detroit from Copland to the AW Trail if a roundabout is placed at that intersection.

I personally approve of this project. Main reason is that it's a way to get this money I/WE PAY IN TAXES back to our area.

posted by ThePolishFalcon on May 23, 2017 at 01:17:28 pm     #  

posted by mixman on May 23, 2017 at 08:16:37 pm     #   1 person liked this

^Tony Kaye didn't play on Roundabout - bad pic

posted by justareviewer on May 23, 2017 at 09:13:34 pm     #   1 person liked this

Main reason is that it's a way to get this money I/WE PAY IN TAXES back to our area.

I hate, hate, HATE this justification for taxation! Sorry, but I would rather NOT pay taxes to the state just for them to turn around and BLESS us with giving it back but only if we spend it the way THEY want us to.

If they let us keep more of our money, than the community can decide what is the best way to spend it - maybe it's on roundabouts, maybe its on school, or maybe ... it's letting the citizens keep it and spend it personally. What a concept.

(And that pulls this thread even farther away from the original subject of mean, ol' nasty UT.)

posted by MsArcher on May 23, 2017 at 09:48:22 pm     #   2 people liked this

MsArcher you've been in the lion's den of public service and earned the privilege of an informed opinion. One I might add I wholeheartedly agree with you. Since UT is publically funded your comments are in order... proceed counselor.

posted by Mariner on May 24, 2017 at 07:53:46 am     #  

Mariner posted at 07:53:46 AM on May 24, 2017:

MsArcher you've been in the lion's den of public service and earned the privilege of an informed opinion. One I might add I wholeheartedly agree with you. Since UT is publically funded your comments are in order... proceed counselor.

Since you asked ...

My first comment ... Ottawa Hills nixed the road project back in March; what is bringing this anti-UT thread up now?

I think there is clearly a need to upgrade Secor in that area - I avoid driving down that stretch as much as possible, preferring Douglas and sometimes even using Cheltenham to get where I'm going (which is not the best road but traffic is lighter even though it is still narrow and you have to deal with parked cars). I also know that when there is an event at UT, the left turn from Secor to Bancroft is backed up for several cycles, easily 5-8 cycles, because you can only get about six cars through on a turn arrow.

Notwithstanding my grouching about referring to the economic impact, the reality is that UT is a major employer in the area, and working with them to help make it an attractive place to spend money is important to the economic stability of the region, not just that section of the city.

It wasn't long ago that President Gaber backed out of a $1 million commitment to help fund a gateway project/475 interchange at Dorr St. That project was partially being undertaken to benefit UT, but I don't remember any outrage over it (although there was squawking for UT spending money on it because the unions want that money for themselves IMO.)

Bottom line - I hate the anti-business, class warfare tenor of attacks on projects such as this. I'm not of the Elizabeth-Warren-You-didn't-build-that philosophy, but reality is that public dollars do go to help benefit and make business possible and easier for the community.

Spending some to help support what is already a successful institution makes sense, as long as it is not to the excess detriment of others. I don't think anyone can deny that Secor needs work. UT has done plenty to benefit the community and the region, especially along the Dorr St corridor.

posted by MsArcher on May 24, 2017 at 09:47:25 am     #   5 people liked this

Wait, they haven't moved the law school downtown - yep, we should nix this plan completely.

(Had to throw that in).

posted by MsArcher on May 24, 2017 at 09:47:43 am     #   2 people liked this