Toledo Talk

Toledo through other eyes

For my work, I travel regionally. Chicago, Ohio, Michigan-that's my territory. As many of you know, I sell wine. This means that the people I work with and the consumers I chat with, tend to be educated, affluent, and have traveled. During the course of small talk with both professionals in the industry as well as consumers, when I mention I'm from Toledo, I keep hearing how people are starting to hear some great things about what is going on here. This is a pretty big change from when I started doing this 8 years ago, when the most frequent response to my Toledo affiliation was "Why?!?". Back then, I had a handful of snarky comments loaded at the ready. I can't even tell you the last time I had to use one.

The strange thing about Toledo is-no one seemed to want to claim us. In Columbus i used to hear that Toledo was more Detroit than Ohio, whereas in Michigan it was BOOO, Ohio! That was always strange to me, as I, like most from this area, feel connected to both states. Unlike, say Detroit, unless there's actually a connection, no one was really rooting for us. That said, I keep hearing positive comments back. I sometimes ask what they're hearing, and people have hard time assessing why they think that. No matter, the word is getting out, justified or not.

I know I'm a cheerleader for all that we have, I did actively decide to return here. We do tend to try to affirm our choices, maybe that's all I am doing. That aside, it's interesting and opportunistic to start hearing unsolicited positives, when my entire life, I only heard negatives. I know this isn't because of some chamber of commerce, or advertising campaign. This is a grassroots movement of people learning to enjoy what they have. The infectious energy of a OWE Fest, Opening day, 419 Day, etc, the list goes on, has helped to create a generalized optimism. We have warts, lord knows, we have baggage too. Vigilant critics are important, lest we become un-tethered from reality.

This is the first time in nearly a lifetime, that Toledo feels like an optimistic place. Perhaps, like the last time (Portside, etc), this will fizzle too. Having a front row seat to what is happening in Detroit, gives me much hope. The money, the enthusiasm, the pride, the ownership that is happening up there, right now, is insane, and it happened in the last 3 years. The way the commercial real estate market in DT Toledo is changing is possibly a sign that we are following in their footsteps. Who knows?

I just thought I'd share a little perspective from the road. I've mentioned some of this stuff previously in other threads. Having just returned from Traverse City and hearing the positivity up there about us, was shareable. Just remember to love and enjoy your home. There is much love for the 419 out there.

created by ahmahler on Jun 10, 2017 at 10:45:14 am     Comments: 78

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Comments ... #

I have traveled the world and the length and breadth of the U.S.A. And I keep telling people Toledo is really not that bad. Visit me here in the sunshine state and I will take you to some areas that will scare the hell out of you. Yes I know I stated that I pack heat when I come home. But to tell you the truth there are places way more dangerous here than there. Toledo has problems. Many of them could be solved if the people of Toledo would just clean up city hall. But they just seem incapable of doing that. I can walk down the street in Toledo (in most areas) and nod or say hello to someone and usually get a friendly response. Try that here where I live. Unless it's a foreign tourist the usual response is no response or the situation can sometimes get threatening. No I am not joking. You can get killed just for saying hello in some places. In Toledo the folks are mostly very friendly. Just clean out the crooks running the place and that will make a huge difference.

posted by Wydowmaker on Jun 10, 2017 at 02:59:38 pm     #   4 people liked this

Well yeah, it's easy for people who haven't had to actually live in Toledo to be positive about it. They don't have to deal with the crime, break ins, illegal trash tax, crooked politicians, etc.

posted by dell_diva on Jun 10, 2017 at 04:41:50 pm     #   5 people liked this

Hope your not speaking to me. I was born in Toledo and raised there. Lived in Toledo until 1993 when I moved to Florida to take a job. In the meantime I have a large family up there that just got bigger by one member. We had a new grand daughter born last night and my wife is in Toledo at this very moment giving a baby shower. We return home frequently.

posted by Wydowmaker on Jun 10, 2017 at 07:26:30 pm     #  

And by the way. I think i'm bit older than most who post here, I was born in Toledo in 1951. So I have a few decades of Toledo experience.

posted by Wydowmaker on Jun 10, 2017 at 07:28:55 pm     #  

dell_diva posted at 04:41:50 PM on Jun 10, 2017:

Well yeah, it's easy for people who haven't had to actually live in Toledo to be positive about it. They don't have to deal with the crime, break ins, illegal trash tax, crooked politicians, etc.

I've been in and around Toledo for 40 years. Haven't had to deal with much crime at all. Break ins? My car was gone through once but I forgot to lock it. Illegal trash tax? Sure but it's really not that expensive. Crooked politicians? I know most of them and I wouldn't call ANY of them crooked. Inept? Sure, some of them.

We've been back in Toledo for a year now after two in Chicago, and I can tell you that city is WAY more fucked up then Toledo on it's worst day. We have it pretty goddamn good here and it's constantly getting better.

If you don't agree, that's cool! But life is a "choose your own adventure" type of thing. Just move if you hate Toledo. There are jobs and houses all across the country. Find the place that makes you happy!

For me that's Toledo. 😊

posted by upso on Jun 10, 2017 at 07:59:41 pm     #   5 people liked this

Upso

Just to clarify my definition of "crooked politicians" as it applies to Toledo. I'm not talking about someone stealing public funds or property. In most cases there is no illegal activity that I can find. But the sole purpose of their being in office is power and control. Yes and most but not all are truly inept. This is nothing new. Toledo has a long and infamous history of these type of people running city hall. They have their own vision and agenda and give a damn about what the working people of the city want. And they are not a bit shy about flaunting the power they wield real or imagined. There are plenty of "crooked" shenanigans that have been going on in Toledo since forever. Most of the time it involves the trading of favors not the greasing of palms. You found out about Chicago huh? My mom lived there for over 30 yrs after she and my dad split. I know a little about the windy city too. Toledo has problems but it also has lots of good people. Not everyone is a gangsta. I have seen many positive changes in Toledo since moving away. You know that building where Grumpies is located. When I was a kid my dad worked part time for a roving security service. He had to stop twice a night and punch a clock in that building. His patrol covered just about all of downtown. I used to ride along on weekends. That was back in the 60's. It was not for the faint of heart or the unarmed fool back then. I think nothing about visiting that area day or night anymore. Toledo has problems. But come on down here and let me take you to St. Pete. I'll bet I can make you crap yourself.

posted by Wydowmaker on Jun 10, 2017 at 08:48:36 pm     #  

Parts of Florida are bad. The police department in Jacksonville got so bad that the DOJ stepped in, then couldn't find a clean officer to run the PD. The DOJ ran it for a few years until it got cleaned up.

I'm sure there are bad parts of St. Pete - so stay out. Tampa is a nice city, and if I ever move again Tampa is probably where I'll end up. It's on my short list, anyway.

posted by madjack on Jun 10, 2017 at 10:36:20 pm     #  

Both wife and I were born and raised in Toledo, went to Macomber and we live and raise our kids here.

We love Toledo, I hope my kids choose to make it home.

posted by SensorG on Jun 10, 2017 at 10:55:35 pm     #   3 people liked this

madjack

I live in Brandon, work in Tampa. All in all not a bad place to live. Tampa is more for the young upscale folks although even us old folks can find things to do there. Not all of St. Pete is bad. But some areas are about as dangerous as you can get. I made a wrong turn one night coming back from Madeira beach. It was a very fortunate thing that both the wife and I were armed. We got stopped and surrounded twice stopping for traffic lights. Lets just say I convinced the groups that they might want to step out of the way. Jacks is still a toilet as is some other areas in particular around Miami. Wander into the wrong area and you might not wander out. I feel safer in Detroit. We have a beautiful county rec center about two miles from my house. It has a dog park to die for and a gorgeous building for public use. It's totally gang controlled. Mostly ok in broad daylight but stay completely away after sundown.

posted by Wydowmaker on Jun 10, 2017 at 10:58:16 pm     #  

SensorG

I'm a Macman too. Class of 70.

posted by Wydowmaker on Jun 10, 2017 at 11:02:00 pm     #  

Wydowmaker posted at 11:02:00 PM on Jun 10, 2017:

SensorG

I'm a Macman too. Class of 70.

You might have bumped into my father in law on occasion. I think he was Class of 71, give or take a year.

posted by mom2 on Jun 11, 2017 at 10:31:43 am     #  

Class of 91 for me.

posted by SensorG on Jun 11, 2017 at 06:20:32 pm     #  

The politicians don't get any less corrupt anywhere else. Same self-serving assholes with different names for the most part.

Actually, seeing the stuff that goes on in Detroit and Chicago and other cities I have lived in, it makes our own brand of corruption seem bush-league. Maybe that's why our self-esteem is always lacking--we can't even get decent political shenanigans right!

posted by oldhometown on Jun 12, 2017 at 12:31:52 am     #  

The conversation often sounds like an addict comparing his addiction to another addict. “Yeah, I’m bad but nowhere near as bad as that guy.” Why continually set the bar at Chicago? Or Detroit? “As long as we don’t get that bad Toledo’s just fine….” That should not make anyone considering purchasing a home, raising a family and living in Toledo for the next decade feel any more optimistic.

No. Toledo is poorly run - period! Just say it! Although it is correct there is no utopia out there I would guess (with absolutely nothing to back this up) that Toledo falls within the bottom 5% of local Government effectiveness. In other words 95% of cities are run more efficiently, effectively and professionally. 95% of the leaders governing other cities take more accountability and represent their citizens better. In 95% of cities your vote means more than it does in Toledo. Trust me, when you sink this low the real vultures start swooping in. Watch for the outsiders coming in who rise to the top because they are effective at winning levies that add a greater burden on those working without adding value to the citizens of Toledo.

I just looked up USA city populations on Wiki. They use hard data for 2010’s population and an estimate for 2016. Toledo is # 72 on the list. Of the top 100 most populous cities 92% of them had a net percentage gain in population between 2010-2016. Only 8 cities recorded a loss.
Of the top 100 most populous cities in the USA Toledo had the second highest percentage population loss at -3.03%. Only Detroit with a net -5.74% loss came in lower. Detroit, Toledo and Cleveland were the only three cities with a population loss exceeding 2.5%

The topic for this post is “Toledo through other eyes.” I can tell you as someone who moved about a year ago that outside a 300 mile radius Toledo really isn’t in the conversation. You usually have to preface “we moved from Toledo” with… “It’s in the Northern part of the State just South of Detroit” and of course “Did you ever watch MASH… you know…. Klinger….”

At some point you have to look up at better cities to see what they are doing… not down a few rungs to Chicago and Detroit.

posted by Danneskjold on Jun 12, 2017 at 06:58:32 am     #   7 people liked this

Danneskjold-I know you've soured on the area. I think you're assigning too much power and blame upon politicians. I'm not defending anyone, we can and should do better-they aren't the reason Toledo has problems, and they are not the saviors. They are a symptom. Toledoans are becoming more engaged (hard to be less)- Will this be a reflection on who is elected? Difficult to say.

Correlation does not equal causation. There is nothing that says a city can only be healthy, vibrant and enjoyable when population is flowing in. Detroit and Cleveland are perfect examples-Cleveland is well into it's second life and Detroit, well, that population figure is about to change, you can't get an apartment downtown and cranes are everywhere.

You are certainly entitled to your affirmation from afar. May you one day find that perfect city with no taxes, no crime and pristine streets.

posted by ahmahler on Jun 12, 2017 at 08:22:08 am     #   3 people liked this

I miss The Beirut ahmahler. : )

posted by Danneskjold on Jun 12, 2017 at 08:36:09 am     #   1 person liked this

Personally I don't need a population increase, I am already tired of the traffic. Having visited Nashville and Charlotte frequently for business, I can tell you, you do not want that type of population or traffic. Too me, that's a huge perk for the area - along with cost of living - oh and in 35 years, I have never ever felt unsafe in Toledo. Now I don't wander into certain parts - but that's every city.

posted by Xbuckeyex on Jun 12, 2017 at 10:16:54 am     #  

ahmahler posted at 08:22:08 AM on Jun 12, 2017:

Danneskjold-I know you've soured on the area. I think you're assigning too much power and blame upon politicians. I'm not defending anyone, we can and should do better-they aren't the reason Toledo has problems, and they are not the saviors. They are a symptom. Toledoans are becoming more engaged (hard to be less)- Will this be a reflection on who is elected? Difficult to say.

Correlation does not equal causation. There is nothing that says a city can only be healthy, vibrant and enjoyable when population is flowing in. Detroit and Cleveland are perfect examples-Cleveland is well into it's second life and Detroit, well, that population figure is about to change, you can't get an apartment downtown and cranes are everywhere.

You are certainly entitled to your affirmation from afar. May you one day find that perfect city with no taxes, no crime and pristine streets.

Are the engaged people you are talking about union stewards and business managers who happen to be democrats?
If so, yes, they will get elected. If no... no freaking way.

You don't have to be sour on the area to be tired of representation that doesn't represent you. Speaking of "flowing," as a boater, I would value moving somewhere that doesn't discharge millions of gallons of raw sewage into their number one natural resource while blaming the lake for their problems.

posted by justread on Jun 12, 2017 at 10:19:05 am     #   5 people liked this

justread posted at 10:19:05 AM on Jun 12, 2017:
ahmahler posted at 08:22:08 AM on Jun 12, 2017:

Danneskjold-I know you've soured on the area. I think you're assigning too much power and blame upon politicians. I'm not defending anyone, we can and should do better-they aren't the reason Toledo has problems, and they are not the saviors. They are a symptom. Toledoans are becoming more engaged (hard to be less)- Will this be a reflection on who is elected? Difficult to say.

Correlation does not equal causation. There is nothing that says a city can only be healthy, vibrant and enjoyable when population is flowing in. Detroit and Cleveland are perfect examples-Cleveland is well into it's second life and Detroit, well, that population figure is about to change, you can't get an apartment downtown and cranes are everywhere.

You are certainly entitled to your affirmation from afar. May you one day find that perfect city with no taxes, no crime and pristine streets.

Are the engaged people you are talking about union stewards and business managers who happen to be democrats?
If so, yes, they will get elected. If no... no freaking way.

You don't have to be sour on the area to be tired of representation that doesn't represent you. Speaking of "flowing," as a boater, I would value moving somewhere that doesn't discharge millions of gallons of raw sewage into their number one natural resource while blaming the lake for their problems.

At least you have a lake lol. Family in Dallas actually has to drink their "recycled" sewage due to the huge population and lack of water.

Oh and you have to piss in the toilet 3 times before you can flush. I forgot that when visiting last summer and flushed after 1 piss - they were not happy. Smh.

posted by Xbuckeyex on Jun 12, 2017 at 10:24:42 am     #  

Copy that. If any of them ever had to clean a hull after a season in the Maumee they would have reacted quickly and with dispatch. Sad news is they have been told and beat over the head for Decades and blissfully went on their merry little way collecting all the pers benefits dismissing all those who use and have an affection for the water. They are the pond scum.

posted by Mariner on Jun 12, 2017 at 10:29:37 am     #  

On a positive note - got 52 walleye this weekend off Catawba but 75% were 13-14 inchers. Should be good fishing next few years.

posted by Xbuckeyex on Jun 12, 2017 at 10:32:02 am     #  

Pray for a good mayfly mating season.

posted by Mariner on Jun 12, 2017 at 10:47:26 am     #  

You don't have to be sour on the area to be tired of representation that doesn't represent you.

Agreed. That wasn't a generalization. Even the most fervent 419 advocates have little positive to say about our elected leaders, party affiliation aside.

posted by ahmahler on Jun 12, 2017 at 10:49:33 am     #  

Xbuckeyex posted at 10:24:42 AM on Jun 12, 2017:
justread posted at 10:19:05 AM on Jun 12, 2017:
ahmahler posted at 08:22:08 AM on Jun 12, 2017:

Danneskjold-I know you've soured on the area. I think you're assigning too much power and blame upon politicians. I'm not defending anyone, we can and should do better-they aren't the reason Toledo has problems, and they are not the saviors. They are a symptom. Toledoans are becoming more engaged (hard to be less)- Will this be a reflection on who is elected? Difficult to say.

Correlation does not equal causation. There is nothing that says a city can only be healthy, vibrant and enjoyable when population is flowing in. Detroit and Cleveland are perfect examples-Cleveland is well into it's second life and Detroit, well, that population figure is about to change, you can't get an apartment downtown and cranes are everywhere.

You are certainly entitled to your affirmation from afar. May you one day find that perfect city with no taxes, no crime and pristine streets.

Are the engaged people you are talking about union stewards and business managers who happen to be democrats?
If so, yes, they will get elected. If no... no freaking way.

You don't have to be sour on the area to be tired of representation that doesn't represent you. Speaking of "flowing," as a boater, I would value moving somewhere that doesn't discharge millions of gallons of raw sewage into their number one natural resource while blaming the lake for their problems.

At least you have a lake lol. Family in Dallas actually has to drink their "recycled" sewage due to the huge population and lack of water.

Oh and you have to piss in the toilet 3 times before you can flush. I forgot that when visiting last summer and flushed after 1 piss - they were not happy. Smh.

A city can make clean water from their own raw sewage without the need to use a huge lake as a reservoir. If they have to.

That means it was never a LAKE problem. It was always a CITY problem. A broken water treatment plant blamed on the lake.

posted by justread on Jun 12, 2017 at 11:26:19 am     #   4 people liked this

And speaking of Toledo and water--did any of you see the blurb in the Blade about snakes showing up in downtown? It took about 10 seconds for some guy to post that most of them were seen around 1 Government Center.

posted by Wydowmaker on Jun 12, 2017 at 12:14:26 pm     #  

"That means it was never a LAKE problem. It was always a CITY problem. A broken water treatment plant blamed on the lake."

Yep.

This is where the local media fail at their jobs when discussing Lake Erie and drinking water today. They fail to provide context. The journalists fail to list the self-inflicted issues that caused the alleged water crisis of August 2014.

[Toledo] remained in regulatory violation by having failed to correct problems with the plant’s sedimentation vent and alum system, which were cited for “significant deficiencies” in a Feb. 6 [2014 EPA] notice.

There were other EPA letters sent to the city, dating back to January 2013, that discussed deficiencies and potential failures in Toledo’s water system.

In the opening paragraph of the June 9 [2014] letter to Collins, the EPA chief said he was concerned about the lack of progress being made to improve the city's public water system, in particular the Collins Park Water Treatment Plant.

[The EPA] said the plant “is vulnerable to potential failures that could impact the city’s ability to provide adequate quantities of safe water to citizens.”


During the alleged water crisis weekend, was one of the flocculators broken?

... repairing the flocculator, one of six at the plant that mixes raw water from the lake with treatment chemicals that help remove sediment and algae ...


I don't remember, but did Toledo run out of or run low on alum ahead of the alleged crisis?


Gems from Ed Moore, Toledo director of public utilities ...

August 2014 Blade story

“The algal bloom caused the issue,” Ed Moore, public utilities director for the city said. “The plant did not cause the issue.”

July 2015 Blade story

Public Utilities Director Ed Moore said he drinks the city’s tap water and drank it last year even during the do-not-drink advisory because he believed it was never unsafe for consumption.


Oregon, Port Clinton, and Carroll Township draw their drinking water from Lake Erie, and they did not have any problems in the summer of 2014. That's because the algae bloom learned to think, and it organized itself to target Toledo's water intake crib only.

Carroll Township had an algae bloom/microcystin/drinking water issue in September 2013. If the EPA letters were not alarming enough to Toledo, how was the 2013 Carroll Township issue not a warning to Toledo?

posted by jr on Jun 12, 2017 at 01:01:23 pm     #  

jr:

"This is where the local media fail at their jobs when discussing Lake Erie and drinking water today. "

And, pretty much everything else they "report". Toledo's local media - print, TV, radio, et al, is nearly as big a joke as our politicians.

So many issues in this area that deserve some old fashioned investigative reporting and to have the light of day shined upon them. Then again, when you have a largely uninterested, apathetic public - why bother?

posted by Foodie on Jun 12, 2017 at 01:59:55 pm     #  

In Today's Detroit News

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/2017/06/12/holy-toledo-mud-hens-park-stands-test-time/102793986/

posted by ahmahler on Jun 14, 2017 at 10:25:56 am     #  

Foodie posted at 01:59:55 PM on Jun 12, 2017:

jr:

"This is where the local media fail at their jobs when discussing Lake Erie and drinking water today. "

And, pretty much everything else they "report". Toledo's local media - print, TV, radio, et al, is nearly as big a joke as our politicians.

So many issues in this area that deserve some old fashioned investigative reporting and to have the light of day shined upon them. Then again, when you have a largely uninterested, apathetic public - why bother?

Media members are often times more concerned with "access" than they are with accuracy and facts. So, you get softball questions ("if you were a twee, what kind of twee would you be?"), pre-scripted/vetted "interviews", no surprises, and a lot of happy talk.

In the meantime, what you actually witness with your own eyes...the stuff everybody knows is happening...is never reported. Why? Answer: wouldn't want to piss off the powerful and lose "access." Washington. Columbus. Toledo. Works the same way in every single place.

I have maintained for years (going on decades) that Channel 24 could have vaulted from a 1.0 share (which they had) to a 40.0 share of the local news audience if they just would have said "screw it" and gone all antagonistic all the time. Been a pain in the ass.

Antagonism based on realism. Held public officials accountable for obvious bullshit. Chased them down the street. Make the local lords and godfathers say "uh oh, they're here" when they see a reporter from that station/media outlet. Did hard-hitting interviews that were not necessarily "gotchas", but certainly confrontational based purely on fact (and not political agenda). Equal opportunity storytelling.

Further, they call officials constantly looking for answers for constituents to ongoing problems. Keep a rolodex of phone numbers and track down people who's phones are suddenly "unreachable. Be relentless. Did investigations into true (not made up) malfeasance we know exists but is not spoken of. Hey, maybe some of those rumors would have been untrue and could be put to bed...we'll never know.

To do this you would need a strong news director with a clear focus on the mission--to provide the truth and eschew hob-nobbing with the privileged set. Or not caring when they threw their temper-tantrums after being called out. Or at least not fall prey to the peer pressure of not being one of the "cool kids" anymore. There are few people in journalism that tough. It sucks being hated and they would be "hated" by all their peers. You would need a team and a leader totally content with themselves and took pride in quality work.

Tough road...you know, only the unwashed plebes would have liked it.

Or maybe I'm wrong and all people want anymore is 60 different shades of "Live with Kelly and Co-Host of this Month." <shrug>

posted by oldhometown on Jun 14, 2017 at 07:48:48 pm     #  

What do Toledo and Chicago have in common for the last 40 or so years? One party rule! Democrat.

posted by kritter on Jun 16, 2017 at 01:38:52 am     #   1 person liked this

OOooooo! I can go one further!

They also have an insanely ineffective Republican organization that fails to generate any momentum ever, tends to have a complete lack of interesting ideas, and GENERALLY SPEAKING doesn't offer any credible alternatives in either city.

AND!

HOT. DOGS. dude. Chicago dogs are so good. Like, SO good. I like them more than Packo's dogs, and I LOVE Packo's dogs. If decades of democrats brings me great hot dogs, I'm gonna vote straight D ticket all my life.

posted by endcycle on Jun 16, 2017 at 09:35:20 am     #   1 person liked this

HOT. DOGS. dude. Chicago dogs are so good. Like, SO good. I like them more than Packo's dogs, and I LOVE Packo's dogs. If decades of democrats brings me great hot dogs, I'm gonna vote straight D ticket all my life

This rationale is unassailable.

posted by justread on Jun 16, 2017 at 10:07:14 am     #  

justread posted at 10:07:14 AM on Jun 16, 2017:

HOT. DOGS. dude. Chicago dogs are so good. Like, SO good. I like them more than Packo's dogs, and I LOVE Packo's dogs. If decades of democrats brings me great hot dogs, I'm gonna vote straight D ticket all my life

This rationale is unassailable.

Ok-Here's the Hot Dog hierarchy

Chicago(-celery salt)>Cincinnati Coney>NYC Dirty Water Dog>Detroit Coney>Cleveland (cole slaw and fries?)>Toledo (Packos)

I'm not sure where that puts us politically, but I think any time you stop having a 2 party (or more) system, you eschew any notion of a meritocracy and devolve into points of connections and favors. Toledo and Chicago share that trait.

posted by ahmahler on Jun 16, 2017 at 10:30:13 am     #  

kritter posted at 01:38:52 AM on Jun 16, 2017:

What do Toledo and Chicago have in common for the last 40 or so years? One party rule! Democrat.

The illegal refuse fee tax that Toledo initiated in 2007 was made possible by the four republicans on Toledo city council.

Voting FOR the new illegal city tax :

  • Joe Birmingham - (R)
  • Rob Ludeman - (R)
  • Betty Shultz - (R) *
  • George Sarantou - (R)
  • Mark Sobczak
  • Wilma Brown
  • Phil Copeland

Voting AGAINST the new illegal city tax :

  • Michael Ashford
  • Mike Craig
  • Ellen Grachek
  • Joe McNamara
  • Frank Szollosi

The illegal tax was not and has never been a separate council vote. It's not an ordinance nor an issue nor anything that requires a separate council vote. It's not voted upon by anyone.

The illegal refuse fee simply exists as a revenue item in the budget. The vote above was to approve the 2007 budget. I inferred that voting for the budget meant voting for the illegal tax, which was a hot topic at the time, and the reason why other council people voted against the 2007 budget.

At one time, Shultz was a democrat, but she switched party affiliations, and she was a republican when she voted in 2007.

Allegedly, the republicans made a shady, backroom deal with then-mayor Carty to get the illegal tax implemented.

You can forget the notion that republicans and the squishy-named independents are any different than democrats at the local level. It has been a long-running myth that republicans favor a smaller, financially-responsible government.

From the 2007 Blade story

Initial efforts focused on the attempt by five A-team Democrats and Republican Joe Birmingham to defeat the trash fee by finding $3.8 million in savings.

In other words, do their jobs by trimming the budget. But nope.

The breakthrough was achieved after two days of deadlock when Mr. Birmingham agreed to support the [illegal] trash fee ...

Mr. Birmingham said he accepted the trash fee because the budget had been cut as much as possible.

Cut as much as possible? Never. That's a lie.

Ludeman is still on Toledo city council after 50 years. And Sarantou is some kind of finance hack for the city. In 2008 or 2009, Sarantou said the illegal refuse fee must continue because the city became too dependent upon the revenue.

It's a scary to think that Sarantou is still involved with Toledo's finances.

posted by jr on Jun 16, 2017 at 11:45:44 am     #   2 people liked this

And Sarantou is some kind of finance hack for the city.

That is Director of Finance Hacking to you, Sir.

posted by justread on Jun 16, 2017 at 12:26:18 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 10:30:13 AM on Jun 16, 2017:
justread posted at 10:07:14 AM on Jun 16, 2017:

HOT. DOGS. dude. Chicago dogs are so good. Like, SO good. I like them more than Packo's dogs, and I LOVE Packo's dogs. If decades of democrats brings me great hot dogs, I'm gonna vote straight D ticket all my life

This rationale is unassailable.

Ok-Here's the Hot Dog hierarchy

Chicago(-celery salt)>Cincinnati Coney>NYC Dirty Water Dog>Detroit Coney>Cleveland (cole slaw and fries?)>Toledo (Packos)

I'm not sure where that puts us politically, but I think any time you stop having a 2 party (or more) system, you eschew any notion of a meritocracy and devolve into points of connections and favors. Toledo and Chicago share that trait.

Okay. I'll grant you whatever political point you just made. I'm done reading about politics for today.

Instead, I'm going to explain a few things.

1: Celery salt is essential to a chicago dog. Yes, I know, you don't like celery. Whatev. I learned to like MUSHROOMS and OLIVES, you could do the same.

2: I agree about the cinci coney, actually. ALTHOUGH here's my caveat - if I'm more than 3 beers in, the cinci coney moves to #1. 1

3: I would actually throw the detroit coney above the NYC dog on taste alone, but the problem you run into is that the NYC dirty water dog is very much a "hot dog in a ballpark" phenomenon. Again, if I'm in a circumstance that allows the dog (IE 83 degrees, sun shining, hanging out near Central Park)? I'm gonna relish that dog.

4: Cleveland dog is blah.

5: A packos hungarian dog with chili and yellow mustard and onions, with a side of their mac and cheese? Dude. You can't call yourself a Toledoan if those words don't warm your heart.

posted by endcycle on Jun 16, 2017 at 12:40:30 pm     #  

All hotdogs are good and I welcome them all into my home.

posted by upso on Jun 16, 2017 at 12:54:16 pm     #   2 people liked this

kritter posted at 01:38:52 AM on Jun 16, 2017:

What do Toledo and Chicago have in common for the last 40 or so years? One party rule! Democrat.

Donna Owens?
Mike Bell?
Michael Collins?
Carty?

posted by MariaL on Jun 16, 2017 at 01:05:12 pm     #  

1: Celery salt is essential to a chicago dog. Yes, I know, you don't like celery. Whatev. I learned to like MUSHROOMS and OLIVES, you could do the same.

2: I agree about the cinci coney, actually. ALTHOUGH here's my caveat - if I'm more than 3 beers in, the cinci coney moves to #1. 1

3: I would actually throw the detroit coney above the NYC dog on taste alone, but the problem you run into is that the NYC dirty water dog is very much a "hot dog in a ballpark" phenomenon. Again, if I'm in a circumstance that allows the dog (IE 83 degrees, sun shining, hanging out near Central Park)? I'm gonna relish that dog.

4: Cleveland dog is blah.

5: A packos hungarian dog with chili and yellow mustard and onions, with a side of their mac and cheese? Dude. You can't call yourself a Toledoan if those words don't warm your heart.

posted by endcycle on Jun 16, 2017 at 12:40:30 pm #

Well, hot damn! The unity has begun.

I agree with everything above! Well, with one small exception: I've ALWAYS loved mushrooms and olives - any and all varieties.

posted by Foodie on Jun 16, 2017 at 01:07:49 pm     #  

I'm gonna relish that dog

What you did there. I see it.

posted by justread on Jun 16, 2017 at 01:49:12 pm     #  

upso posted at 12:54:16 PM on Jun 16, 2017:

All hotdogs are good and I welcome them all into my home.

liberal

posted by ahmahler on Jun 16, 2017 at 02:05:57 pm     #  

1: Celery salt is essential to a chicago dog. Yes, I know, you don't like celery. Whatev. I learned to like MUSHROOMS and OLIVES, you could do the same.

wrong-Sport Peppers. 100 people surveyed think Mushrooms and Olives are better than Celery Salt.

My 2 food aversions are raw celery and the toxic level of nitrites floating in the ambiance of Tony Packos.

posted by ahmahler on Jun 16, 2017 at 02:09:29 pm     #  

Sport peppers goes w/o saying - as well as the glow in the dark pickle relish.

posted by Foodie on Jun 16, 2017 at 02:15:59 pm     #  

upso posted at 12:54:16 PM on Jun 16, 2017:

All hotdogs are good and I welcome them all into my home.

13/10 they're good dogs brent

posted by endcycle on Jun 16, 2017 at 02:19:46 pm     #   1 person liked this

justread posted at 01:49:12 PM on Jun 16, 2017:

I'm gonna relish that dog

What you did there. I see it.

the best part is that I completely didn't realize what i did until you pointed it out, and then I felt terrible.

Like, if I had caught that pun while I was typing I would have removed it.

Oy. Beers.

posted by endcycle on Jun 16, 2017 at 02:21:15 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 02:09:29 PM on Jun 16, 2017:
1: Celery salt is essential to a chicago dog. Yes, I know, you don't like celery. Whatev. I learned to like MUSHROOMS and OLIVES, you could do the same.

wrong-Sport Peppers. 100 people surveyed think Mushrooms and Olives are better than Celery Salt.

My 2 food aversions are raw celery and the toxic level of nitrites floating in the ambiance of Tony Packos.

Sport peppers ARE awesome. And they are integral to the dog, and play a role EQUAL to that of the celery salt.

I don't care what aversions you have - you're wrong. It's that simple. There's facts, there's alternate facts, and then there's "ahmahler's wrong again", which in this case is an evergreen fact.

Straight shooters highly respected on both sides of the aisle agree on that, in fact.

posted by endcycle on Jun 16, 2017 at 02:22:50 pm     #  

Straight shooters highly respected on both sides of the aisle agree on that, in fact.

If anyone knows where this quote is from, I'm cooking them dinner.

posted by ahmahler on Jun 16, 2017 at 02:33:17 pm     #  

Jon Lovett

posted by justread on Jun 16, 2017 at 02:47:21 pm     #   1 person liked this

justread posted at 02:47:21 PM on Jun 16, 2017:

Jon Lovett

Color me impressed-pick a day. I'll be making chicago dogs w/o celery salt

posted by ahmahler on Jun 16, 2017 at 03:23:57 pm     #  

you disappoint me

posted by upso on Jun 16, 2017 at 03:29:35 pm     #  

upso posted at 03:29:35 PM on Jun 16, 2017:

you disappoint me

podcast or celery salt?

posted by ahmahler on Jun 16, 2017 at 03:52:57 pm     #  

+1 to justread for the deep background input.

posted by Mariner on Jun 16, 2017 at 04:36:51 pm     #  

Well done

posted by endcycle on Jun 16, 2017 at 05:00:28 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 03:52:57 PM on Jun 16, 2017:
upso posted at 03:29:35 PM on Jun 16, 2017:

you disappoint me

podcast or celery salt?

celery salt. it's so delcious

posted by upso on Jun 16, 2017 at 05:12:28 pm     #   1 person liked this

I'm talking city council babe. They hold the purse strings. And going back to Donna Owens? Wow! You missed John McHugh, Bill Ensign, Doug Degood, Jack Ford and Harry Kessler. And by the way, Carty Finkbeiner was a DEMOCRAT Mayor. And do you really believe Collins was Independent? Seems to me he was always a Dem when he ran for City Council. Look it up. So in the past 50 years we've had one Republican Mayor (Owens) for 6 years and one Indy (Bell) for 4 years. That's only 10 of the past 50 years. Yes Toledo HAS been one party rule, capeesh?

posted by kritter on Jun 16, 2017 at 06:04:11 pm     #  

upso posted at 05:12:28 PM on Jun 16, 2017:
ahmahler posted at 03:52:57 PM on Jun 16, 2017:
upso posted at 03:29:35 PM on Jun 16, 2017:

you disappoint me

podcast or celery salt?

celery salt. it's so delcious

Oh, I see-all hot dogs are welcome, but the choice of toppings may be scrutinized....

posted by ahmahler on Jun 16, 2017 at 06:11:54 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 03:23:57 PM on Jun 16, 2017:
justread posted at 02:47:21 PM on Jun 16, 2017:

Jon Lovett

Color me impressed-pick a day. I'll be making chicago dogs w/o celery salt

Ok. Your house, your rules. No celery salt. :)

posted by justread on Jun 17, 2017 at 05:13:34 am     #  

upso posted at 12:54:16 PM on Jun 16, 2017:

All hotdogs are good and I welcome them all into my home.

Right on.

I will perform weddings for anybody no matter what kind of hot dogs they have. Number of wieners also doesn't matter. :D

posted by justread on Jun 17, 2017 at 05:18:29 am     #   2 people liked this

So, you know that friend you have that is awkward alone, but fun in a group? That's celery salt.

posted by justread on Jun 17, 2017 at 05:20:41 am     #  

It's funny how all threads on TT devolve into talk of Celery Salt.

posted by ahmahler on Jun 17, 2017 at 08:54:54 am     #   1 person liked this

SO when is AHMahler hosting the TT sausage fest?

posted by endcycle on Jun 19, 2017 at 11:04:51 am     #  

It's one month until Hot Dog Day, July 19.

posted by justread on Jun 19, 2017 at 11:11:38 am     #  

endcycle posted at 11:04:51 AM on Jun 19, 2017:

SO when is AHMahler hosting the TT sausage fest?

No and no

posted by ahmahler on Jun 19, 2017 at 11:31:27 am     #  

Lame!

posted by upso on Jun 19, 2017 at 11:34:44 am     #  

I'd do it myself, but I really don't want to.

posted by endcycle on Jun 19, 2017 at 11:54:42 am     #  

Sausage party for TT...

Still unconvinced...

posted by ahmahler on Jun 19, 2017 at 12:16:25 pm     #  

For some reason, this has become the "In Your Eyes" thread in my mind and everybody has boom boxes.

posted by justread on Jun 19, 2017 at 04:23:33 pm     #  

Saw PG Live with Sting. Awesome show.

posted by Molsonator on Jun 19, 2017 at 04:57:21 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 12:16:25 PM on Jun 19, 2017:

Sausage party for TT...

Still unconvinced...


Organize it like one of those special-event, Monday evening wine dinners that are occasionally held at the Registry Bistro. Maybe make it slightly more casual.

ahmahler selects the wines. The chef could source from local butchers and charcuteries.

Chef Erika will curate a multi-course [hot dog] tasting menu perfectly parried with wine and served at your leisure over the course of the evening.

It's a seven-course meal. This example is more of a cool-season menu. Need to summertime the menu to account for local produce that's in season. A strawberry-based relish or ketchup served on a hot dog sounds scrump.

Course 1:
Kumamoto Hot Dog
Pineapple-Basil Mignonette
Verjus Champagne Cocktail

Course 2:
Olive Oil Poached Hot Dog with Preserved Oscar Mayer Lemon
Marinated Lupini Bean Salad
2012 Sauvignon Blanc

Course 3:
Pan Roasted Hot Dog
Fumet with Olives & Cannellini Ragout
Grilled Walnut Bread
2008 Ollieux Romanis Corbieres Classique

Course 4:
Braised Hot Dog with Carrots Puree
Yorkshire Pudding
2010 Domaine de la Solitude Châteauneuf-du-Pape

Course 5:
Grilled Hot Dog with Radicchio
Sweet Potato & Chorizo Hash Cake
2010 JL Chave Selections, Crozes-Hermitage “Silène”

Course 6:
Seared Hot Dog with Beef Braised Carrots
Caramelized Onions with Smoked Bacon
2009 Cabernet Sauvignon

Course 7:
Petite Hot Dog Mousse Cake

posted by jr on Jun 19, 2017 at 06:25:20 pm     #  

You should try BlackHawk wieners for lunch or snack. They have heap big energy in every pack!

posted by reggie on Jun 20, 2017 at 05:38:21 am     #  

jr.... i totally would go to that.

posted by endcycle on Jun 20, 2017 at 08:32:24 am     #  

justread posted at 04:23:33 PM on Jun 19, 2017:

For some reason, this has become the "In Your Eyes" thread in my mind and everybody has boom boxes.

"I gave her my heart and she gave me a pen"

posted by ahmahler on Jun 20, 2017 at 10:07:40 am     #  

ahmahler posted at 10:07:40 AM on Jun 20, 2017:
justread posted at 04:23:33 PM on Jun 19, 2017:

For some reason, this has become the "In Your Eyes" thread in my mind and everybody has boom boxes.

"I gave her my heart and she gave me a pen"

You are the distraction that's going with her to England.

posted by justread on Jun 20, 2017 at 11:12:58 am     #  

All I can see are white bunny tales descending down holes.

posted by Mariner on Jun 20, 2017 at 11:42:13 am     #  

justread posted at 11:12:58 AM on Jun 20, 2017:
ahmahler posted at 10:07:40 AM on Jun 20, 2017:
justread posted at 04:23:33 PM on Jun 19, 2017:

For some reason, this has become the "In Your Eyes" thread in my mind and everybody has boom boxes.

"I gave her my heart and she gave me a pen"

You are the distraction that's going with her to England.

I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed.

posted by ahmahler on Jun 20, 2017 at 12:00:12 pm     #  

Good on yah. I just don't wanna meet any process servers.

posted by Mariner on Jun 20, 2017 at 12:40:06 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 12:00:12 PM on Jun 20, 2017:
justread posted at 11:12:58 AM on Jun 20, 2017:
ahmahler posted at 10:07:40 AM on Jun 20, 2017:
justread posted at 04:23:33 PM on Jun 19, 2017:

For some reason, this has become the "In Your Eyes" thread in my mind and everybody has boom boxes.

"I gave her my heart and she gave me a pen"

You are the distraction that's going with her to England.

I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed.

You know, as a career, I don’t want to do that.

posted by justread on Jun 20, 2017 at 12:52:46 pm     #  

ahmahler posted at 12:00:12 PM on Jun 20, 2017:
justread posted at 11:12:58 AM on Jun 20, 2017:
ahmahler posted at 10:07:40 AM on Jun 20, 2017:
justread posted at 04:23:33 PM on Jun 19, 2017:

For some reason, this has become the "In Your Eyes" thread in my mind and everybody has boom boxes.

"I gave her my heart and she gave me a pen"

You are the distraction that's going with her to England.

I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed.

You know, as a career, I don’t want to do that.

posted by justread on Jun 20, 2017 at 12:52:46 pm     #