Toledo Talk

Lucas County Need to Do an Amazon

... to find a new location for its jail. I know Toledo neighborhoods don't want a big building devoted to the criminal justice system to be built nearby, but there are some townships and tiny towns that might welcome a new source of employment.

Why not open the bidding for small towns to submit economic development packages regarding shovel-ready land, road access, and workforce potential? Subtract the anticipated cost of transportation to/from the courthouse from that. It might be a wash.

Jerusalem Township is about to lose a lot of jobs and tax revenue from Davis-Besse ... they might welcome a new addition to their area.

Spencer Township has a vacant school campus and subsidized housing full of people who might like to have a shot at good-paying jobs and careers.

The Crissey area has plenty of auto salvage facilities and rural acreage - perhaps those residents would enjoy diversifying their local economy :)

I wouldn't expect Whitehouse or Waterville to jump in, but those towns could also benefit ... if they chose to structure a deal on their own terms.

Rather than trying to jam an unwanted project into metro neighborhoods, maybe look around and see who WANTS to have the potential for employment and further development.

Edit: sorry -- "Lucas County Needs" instead of "Need." I don't know how to edit a title :(

created by viola on Feb 08, 2018 at 09:52:13 am
updated by viola on Feb 09, 2018 at 09:49:46 am
    Comments: 39

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Comments ... #

As best as can be determined one of the major concerns is the time it takes for induction into the facility by the transporting officers and the vehicle they are using. It's a county operation so it effects many more than just TPD and Lucas Deputies. Overtime is a dirty word for any employer but with staffing levels low the out of service vehicle can mean no service for a period of time. Location doesn't solve that problem but is part of the puzzle.

posted by Mariner on Feb 08, 2018 at 10:32:07 am     #  

Step 1: Determine which zip code provides the highest number of violent criminals to the jail.
Step 2: That's the zip code that gets the new jail.

Don't think of it as a punishment. Think of it as convenient.

posted by justread on Feb 08, 2018 at 10:59:11 am     #   4 people liked this

Davis Besse is in Carroll Township, not Jerusalem Twsp. I do not know what they are going to do without that revenue.

posted by Hoops on Feb 08, 2018 at 11:17:50 am     #  

What will happen if voters turn down the levy for the new jail? Will the powers that be divert monies from other sources or issue bonds or do something similar? It wouldn't be the first time voters weren't listened to.

posted by Mike21 on Feb 08, 2018 at 11:24:05 am     #  

Step 2: That's the zip code that gets the new jail.

Ottawa Hills probably would not put up with it.
Oh yeah... they have yet to be tried and convicted of their crimes.

posted by Mariner on Feb 08, 2018 at 11:48:36 am     #   1 person liked this

The new jail needs to be downtown near the courts and the lawyers.
Any place else is just plain stupid.

posted by JohnnyMac on Feb 08, 2018 at 12:28:02 pm     #   1 person liked this

It would make sense for transportation reasons to have the jail downtown by the court house (and I'm saying this as someone that lives downtown).

If they are going to locate the jail near a residential area one thing the county could do is offer property tax incentives. If I owned property in an area where they were going to build a jail I would be more accepting of it if I knew I would be getting a nice property tax incentive.

posted by jamesteroh on Feb 08, 2018 at 12:34:54 pm     #   2 people liked this

Hoops posted at 11:17:50 AM on Feb 08, 2018:

Davis Besse is in Carroll Township, not Jerusalem Twsp. I do not know what they are going to do without that revenue.

That's Ottawa County too, isn't it? Seems like I remember the sign marking the county line being somewhere not far from Davis Besse.

posted by mom2 on Feb 08, 2018 at 12:45:00 pm     #  

jamesteroh posted at 12:34:54 PM on Feb 08, 2018:

It would make sense for transportation reasons to have the jail downtown by the court house (and I'm saying this as someone that lives downtown).

If they are going to locate the jail near a residential area one thing the county could do is offer property tax incentives. If I owned property in an area where they were going to build a jail I would be more accepting of it if I knew I would be getting a nice property tax incentive.

Damn better be property tax incentives, since you won't be able to sell it.

posted by justread on Feb 08, 2018 at 12:54:27 pm     #   4 people liked this

JohnnyMac posted at 12:28:02 PM on Feb 08, 2018:

The new jail needs to be downtown near the courts and the lawyers.
Any place else is just plain stupid.

Then build the new jail downtown, or renovate the current jail that is already located downtown. Any other option is just plain stupid.

Why did county officials permit the old downtown jail to fall into disrepair? That's a failure by county officials.

And now county officials have the audacity to ask voters to approve a new tax levy this fall to held fund the new jail.

County officials cannot be trusted to manage finances properly.

posted by jr on Feb 08, 2018 at 01:22:35 pm     #   7 people liked this

I went to the meeting last night for the jail. It was a big room set up with a bunch of presentations showing the criteria they used on each site and scored each site based on them. They had rendering of building designs, and pictures of the current jail and lots of people to answer questions, the commissioners, sheriff and everybody's assistants. The site they choose scored the highest ,of course.and the problems with some of the downtown sites had more to do with time, demolish buildings, vacate streets, clean up site etc.. and cost instead of convenience. The jail belongs in the center of Lucas County near the courts and where most of the arrest are coming from. If that was the real criteria they used than Downtown would be the logical site.

posted by OldTimer on Feb 08, 2018 at 01:29:49 pm     #  

Let's keep our eyes on Elon Musk. He might be providing a solution.

posted by Mariner on Feb 08, 2018 at 01:48:09 pm     #   1 person liked this

Mariner posted at 11:48:36 AM on Feb 08, 2018:

Step 2: That's the zip code that gets the new jail.

Ottawa Hills probably would not put up with it.
Oh yeah... they have yet to be tried and convicted of their crimes.

I don't know who in Ottawa Hills hurt you, but that is some serious bullshit.

posted by justread on Feb 08, 2018 at 03:01:00 pm     #   1 person liked this

I see parallels between Lucas County and TPS and city government as well. They own all these buildings and did nothing at all or very little to maintain them. Why have they not been updating and maintaining this jail all along? Then all we would need is an annex or something similar . Same with the schools , tear down all the schools and build new. Those older buildings were built like fortresses , architectural landmarks. A good example would be Libbey High School or even Arlington School. Especially Arlington , anyone drive by there and see that mess? Built all the way to the sidewalk , any kind of a view those residents who live across the street had is totally gone . How would you sell a house over there today? 181 million for a new jail , are you kidding me? And the city sells 2 commercial buildings in Southwyck for $1. Something is terribly wrong here.

posted by marving on Feb 08, 2018 at 03:47:57 pm     #   4 people liked this

"Same with the schools , tear down all the schools and build new. Those older buildings were built like fortresses , architectural landmarks. A good example would be Libbey High School or even Arlington School. "

Real simple answer - it is called feed the unions.

posted by Foodie on Feb 08, 2018 at 05:03:09 pm     #   5 people liked this

No one in the village has ever done any damage it's just fun zinging the other half - the 1% ers. Rest assured its all water off a duck's back to them thats got it.

posted by Mariner on Feb 08, 2018 at 05:42:50 pm     #  

What about the Blade property? They're ready to sell and bail out to Northwood.

posted by Toledostrong on Feb 08, 2018 at 06:29:36 pm     #  

Noone touched on the real reason the jail will never, ever, ever move outside of Toledo - Toledo would lose the income tax revenue from the employees, as well as all of the contractors that will work on it.

Realistically, the jail does not need to be near the courthouses because with modern technology, you can do video arrangements, as well as attorneys meeting with their clients the same way. Video arraignments save money and improve safety.

Finally, the current jail was in violation of a court order from the moment ground was broke to build it.

posted by not_me on Feb 08, 2018 at 07:01:34 pm     #   1 person liked this

You have to remember this is a county project, not a city one. The city stiffed the county to the tune of about 10 million dollars a year, a couple years ago when Mayor Collins decided to charge those arrested with Ohio revised code instead of Toledo municipal code, making the county responsible for the jail costs. The city and county sued each other over this and the county lost. If the county could move it out of the city, they would, but that far away would not make sense. If the police in Waterville have to arrest someone they will have to drive to the proposed site, less than 1 mile from the Michigan line, to take them to jail a 2+ hour round trip.

posted by OldTimer on Feb 08, 2018 at 07:39:14 pm     #  

I actually like having a crappy jail. I know it sucks for the deputies, and I actually like Sheriff Tharp, and think he is effective, but I like a crappy jail. It's jail. We have gone soft on everybody. Damn you, soccer and no red pens.

posted by justread on Feb 08, 2018 at 07:57:35 pm     #   3 people liked this

Man are you leading with a glass jaw with that soccer comment. You do realize all those helicopter moms now have DRONES.

posted by Mariner on Feb 09, 2018 at 06:50:59 am     #  

New brainstorm brewing in my morning coffee cup: require the county to use/update currently-owned facilities. That's not too much for taxpayers to ask.

Spend a year modifying the old Rec Center into a temporary detention facility - nothing fancy. Move some operations into there while rehabbing the current building downtown. When ready, move back into the rehabbed downtown building and then demolish the Rec Center. Replace it with something that's first of all, attractive, and second, more in keeping with modern lifestyles and community needs.

I know there have been cat shows and antiques fairs at the Rec Center, but after one visit years ago I decided to never go back to anything on that property. It's just depressing.

The snack bar food was horrible - straight outta Gordon Food Service -- and these days there's no excuse for having wretched refreshments at a public event :)

posted by viola on Feb 09, 2018 at 10:05:33 am     #   1 person liked this

"The new jail needs to be downtown near the courts and the lawyers.
Any place else is just plain stupid."

100% disagree. They can now do video arraignments, etc. For a majority of court appointments, there is no need to transport them from the jail to the court.

Jails should no longer be downtown. Complete waste of prime real estate.

posted by toledoramblingman on Feb 09, 2018 at 10:26:36 am     #   1 person liked this

toledoramblingman posted at 10:26:36 AM on Feb 09, 2018:

"The new jail needs to be downtown near the courts and the lawyers.
Any place else is just plain stupid."

100% disagree. They can now do video arraignments, etc. For a majority of court appointments, there is no need to transport them from the jail to the court.

Jails should no longer be downtown. Complete waste of prime real estate.

I am fascinated. List the totality of "court appointments" that do and do not require a personal appearance, ratio of appearances made by people on OR bonds who don't start out at the jail but end up there, etc. You must have the data. You a bailiff?

posted by justread on Feb 09, 2018 at 10:56:29 am     #  

From CCNO:

http://www.ccnoregionaljail.org/Video%20Arraignment.htm

The CCNO will assist in enhancing the safety of courtroom personnel, the general public and CCNO Transportation Officers while decreasing the cost of transportation as well as the potential for escape by establishing a video conferencing link between the CCNO and the respective courtrooms for the purpose of conducting selected court appearances for offenders housed at CCNO.

All video court proceedings will be conducted in a manner that protects the due process rights of all defendants by providing a clear, accurate visual and audio representation of all parties involved in such proceeding. This service is in the process of being phased in to the 20 courts that CCNO serves.

As the offender population continues to grow, so do the problems associated with having to transport offenders to the 20 courts that send offenders to CCNO. The transportation of offenders requires time, demands the safety of the public, security of the offender population, and rising concern of transportation costs.

In October 2002, CCNO joined forces with RTEC Communications and Data Eclipse to develop a video arraignment system to address these concerns. Since the City of Bryan was working on a fiber optic system, the logical start was to also include the Williams County Common Pleas Court and Bryan Municipal Court. The system began utilization in March 2003.

Under the new video arraignment system, the offender may appear before a judge for arraignment without ever leaving CCNO. This helps reduce the need for transportation to the appropriate court, the offenders are kept secure at CCNO reducing the possibility of escape and reducing the need for court security, while the safety of the court personnel and general public is not jeopardized. Costs to purchase the necessary video equipment totaled $141,339. This would allow installation of video equipment in all five-county common pleas courts and the City of Toledo municipal courts. The initial start up cost of the video arraignment system was $141,339.

As those involved get used to the new technology of video conferencing for arraignment, there will be more and more uses for the resource. In addition to court arraignments, it has already been used for attorney-client conferences and by probation officers for pre-sentence investigations prior to court sentencing. Other future uses include videoconference meetings, long-distance training, inmate visiting and telemedicine. In some limited areas, health officials at one site may consult with their colleagues at another site and an offender may be screened or receive follow up recommendations without having to make a trip to a nearby medical center or hospital.

In 2000, the Supreme Court of Ohio reported that 82 common pleas and municipal courts were using video arraignment systems. The technology, which is used for a variety of courtroom procedures, has proven to be a valuable tool to help conserve law enforcement, court and corrections systems resources.

Page last updated November 09, 2017

Video arraignment is where the industry is going and has been for a long time. The near location of the LCJ made it easy for them not to get on the band wagon, but even then it should have been considered because of the cost of moving defendants back and forth in the tunnel as well as problems they have had in doing so.

posted by not_me on Feb 09, 2018 at 01:26:08 pm     #   1 person liked this

Oh good. Another expert. What percentage of court proceedings are video arraignments? What percentage are non-arraignment proceedings which may result in custody? What is the total number of court "appointments" and what percentage of that total are arraignments? List the totality of "court appointments" that do and do not require a personal appearance, ratio of appearances made by people on OR bonds who don't start out at the jail but end up there, etc.

Thanks!

Yes. Video arraignment exists. We had established that. We are drilling down now.

posted by justread on Feb 09, 2018 at 01:50:55 pm     #  

I know next to nothing about the court system, so take this for what it's worth. Why not take the OP suggestion and ask Lucas County municipalities for bids for the new jail AND a new courthouse? They don't need to be in Toledo, do they? That would eliminate the transportation issue.

posted by JoeyGee on Feb 09, 2018 at 04:10:06 pm     #  

ratio of appearances made by people on OR bonds who don't start out at the jail but end up there, etc.

I think those on OR who don't start out at jail but end up at jail typically end up there because they don't show up at court, not because they do.

You're asking for stats to show that we need the jail downtown when the industry itself has shown that is no longer the case. And if the court and/or jail does not have video conferencing, we can't exactly give you stats on how many use it. But here is another source:

http://www.ncsc.org/Topics/Technology/Video-Technologies/Resource-Guide.aspx

This is from the National Center for State Courts, and they've been doing studies and compiling information for over twenty years. I didn't read all of it, but one article I caught mentioned they are even using it in civil cases. (Obviously not a jail issue, but shows IMO how the technology is trying to address the cost issues of the judicial system across the board).

posted by not_me on Feb 09, 2018 at 04:21:11 pm     #   1 person liked this

The people want the jail downtown as it has been for over 150 years in one building or another. We don't trust the people running the county. We don't know it they overpaid for land, etc.

Columbus/Franklin County is building a new jail (sales tax), Detroit/Wayne County, and so many other cities. They are building multi level building, so much for the commissioners it has to be single level. Nashville/Davidson county is building a correction center 2 and 1/2 times bigger than what is being talked about here for 50 million less.

We have went through this just a few months ago, put it next to the prison which you already own the land or downtown and that is it unless of course you want to move it to the county line. Might be a good thing, open the door, there is the county line, get out and don't come back.

As we said and people getting out of jail downtown, they open the door and out you go. Now downtown has the Mission, they have The Source and the Library and so many other help locations A lot of these folks need help and when they step out the door they don't have a dollar.

You tore down the jail build in 1900 which lasted 77 years. You put up a new jail right next to it in 1977 because of a federal mandate to stop overcrowding and bad conditions. No sooner than you put up the 1977 it was under federal mandate again and in 2004 you were talking about replacing it. Now you have screwed up so bad that this time you need to listen to the people replace, repair, add on to the existing jail. Tear it down, make 5 stories underground and 20 high but that is what people are telling you. Call Nashville and other cities and ask them how they are building so big for so cheap, but don't take us for another ride.

posted by Nyse on Feb 09, 2018 at 05:30:54 pm     #   4 people liked this

we can't exactly give you stats on how many use it

Ok. I'm out then. This isn't a real discussion without the data.

posted by justread on Feb 09, 2018 at 06:33:31 pm     #  

What exactly is wrong with the location that was selected? If people were breaking out of jail and terrorizing the neighborhood on a consistent basis, then I would understand, but that doesn't happen. The location on Detroit and Alexis is surrounded by an abandoned horse track, an abandoned mall, a junk yard, railroad tracks, and brownfields.

posted by clt212 on Feb 12, 2018 at 12:38:17 pm     #   1 person liked this

Nothing is wrong with the location, people don't want it in their neighborhood. And it is a matter of trust, the commissioners have lost the trust of the people. We elected these people, if the majority of people want it downtown, hell or high water it should be downtown.

In 2015 we got a new sales tax of .25 in many articles it was said it could be used for the jail. It went into effect in March 2015, in May of 2015 Gerken said no new taxes for a jail in 2015 and we will live within our budget. http://www.wtol.com/tory/29080215/lucas-county-moving-forward-with-new-jail-plans.

In 2003 they were talking about tearing down the current jail at 27 years old and putting in a new jail next to Toledo prison which the sheriff at the time said was good and in 2013 he said it again. That study in 2003 only costs us 232,000. A at the time 27 year old building was no good. Heck it's lasted 15 more years when they said it was a major priority in 2003. http://www.toledoblade.com/frontpage/2003/11/16/State-prison-grounds-could-be-spot-for-new-jail.html

Do you see a pattern here, for over 15 years they have been going to build a jail, so much double talk. I think the only think to do is call in Dave Yost, Auditor for the State of Ohio like Mayor Paula Hicks Hudson did and go over the books to restore some confidence back in our county.

Now can we talk about the 1,000 pieces of property in the Land Bank, some of the parcels big enough for a jail, why should we pay when you own land. Some of that property is next to Toledo Prison, enough for a county jail, why are we buying property when the in 2003 and 2013 the sheriff at the time said that was a good spot and the county already owns it.

posted by Nyse on Feb 12, 2018 at 01:34:17 pm     #   4 people liked this

oorah Nyse

posted by Mariner on Feb 12, 2018 at 05:47:11 pm     #  

"Same with the schools , tear down all the schools and build new. Those older buildings were built like fortresses , architectural landmarks. A good example would be Libbey High School or even Arlington School. "

At the time the schools were being replaced, the state of Ohio had offered money to replace old schools. True architectural landmarks, like Scott and Waite, were preserved -- at nearly the same cost as to build new.

So, why build new? I am all for architectural preservation, but schools today have to be adapted to today's technology and safety standards. That's hard to do in a massive, three-story building. Additionally, those schools were built before a lot of the highways came into being. The highways lead to the suburbs, where a lot of young families with children settled. Hence, there is less need for a gigantic building to heat all winter. The new elementaries are much better suited to the needs of today's students.

posted by Anniecski on Feb 13, 2018 at 10:10:36 am     #   1 person liked this

How is it ok to rip out the guts of a county owned hotel, sell it and reestablish it back to its former use but the same can't be done for the corrections building. Guess one needs to be a brilliant engineer to figure that one out. Like the idea of the old buildings used temporary at the Maumee Rec Ctr. while the rehab goes on. After all they want Toledo water let them share the burden of criminal detention too. Seems only fair and would bring us closer together.

posted by Mariner on Feb 13, 2018 at 10:21:16 am     #  

Problem with using the same concept of the jail as the hotel is where do you house the prisoners in the interim while the jail is being renovated.

It's too bad the unions are so strong here or we could do what Nashville and some other large cities are doing and outsource the jail operations. Problem is with the unions so strong here we are required to pay prevailing wage which is double or triple what market rate wages are in some cases.

They interviewed some sidelines employees and customers yesterday and the one waitress said she would welcome the jail there. She stated crime is bad there and she feels the jail would have a larger police presence cutting down on crime.

Hopefully the tax payers will vote this down.

posted by classylady on Feb 13, 2018 at 10:45:50 am     #  

I have a new problem about the jail. As every one know, in around 2014, Toledo started charging under State Law instead of Toledo Municipal Law, driving it own incarceration costs down 4 million a year and the county's up 4 million per year.

Are the rest of the municipalities in Lucas County doing this? Why should I have to pay extra property tax because Toledo did this and drove this cost to all Lucas County residents. Should'nt all of the municipalities be charging under State Law to make it fair.

If the rest of the cities, municipalities in Lucas County are charging under their municipal code, they are losing money while forcing their residents to pay for a new jail county wide when the money lost when Toledo did this would have went a long ways toward a jail.

Can anyone help me on this - the question being is Oregon, Maumee, Sylvania still charging crimes under municipal code rather than State code like Toledo? And if so , why, by depriving the county of this money per year forcing all Lucas County residents to pay for a jail while Toledo escapes its costs. And remember the court upheld it as legal. http://www.bryantimes.com/bryan_times/a-glimpse-inside-ccno/article_891d29c3-6a3e-5f63-9f45-57ccce9abdc5.html

posted by Nyse on Feb 13, 2018 at 11:43:37 pm     #  

I highly recommend reading the article link posted by Nyse.

Key points for me:
* CCNO -completely paid for
* Toledo/Lu. Co. paying for 438 beds for sentenced inmates CCNO
* New jail would have 448 beds for sentenced inmates
* New jail would have 572 beds for pretrial inmates
* Current Lucas Co. jail functions mainly as pretrial detention
* Current Lucas Co. jail capacity: 346 plus 51 booking area
* CCNO cost per day per inmate: $66.09 (2014)
* Lucas Co. jail per day per inmate: $149.57 (2014)

Why is Lucas Co. wanting to build a facility to house over 1000 at a $142M cost when maybe.....maybe!....a facility half that size is needed?

Or...what can be done to the current facility to satisfy the pre-trial inmates and ship ALL sentenced inmates to CCNA?

Even if CCNO had to expand....plenty of space out there... project cost would realistically be a FRACTION of what's being proposed.

Lucas Co. gets NO VOTE from me for this current proposal...I hope others feel the same here.

posted by ThePolishFalcon on Feb 14, 2018 at 04:21:54 pm     #   3 people liked this

And now on top of that , $40+ million for Seagate Center remodeling and expansion. When this Harry Kessler Memorial was built it was too small for large conventions and too large for small conventions.

posted by marving on Feb 17, 2018 at 12:47:42 pm     #