/p/
Toledo Talk forums search sign-up login

Weather Test Run

So here are my thoughts from someone spoiled from being in the number one weather market in the US. Today's storm that sparked the Tornado Warning in the Toledo Metro start back in Central Indiana with a history, as of right now, of at least 4 tornadoes.

National Weather Service in North Webster, IN did an amazing job with proactive warnings and providing great updates on the storm as it progressed. All around great job from those folks.

NWS Cleveland officially issued the warning for Lucas/Wood Counties around 6:55 PM. From my contacts, sirens didn't go off for another 5 minutes. So about this. The warning, I feel could have been done sooner. At the very least, Cleveland needs to look into steps that other offices are taking of issued "Significant Weather Advisories" through the Special Weather Statement products. Pretty much these are meant to advise the public that there is something close or already occurring that is just on the threshold of causing a warning. Something like this may have been good since apparently, Lucas County Emergency Management or whomever is in charge of the sirens completely failed in providing a prompt and immediate delivery of the warning. Warning is issued at 6:55 PM, if someone 1000 miles away has access to that from basic means, a department that is responsible for passing that on should do better than 5 minutes.

I understand that this is an early storm and you may not be prepared, well you lucked out. Now fix the problem that resulted in a 5 minutes delay in public warning delivery.

As far as the TV stations, I can only go off what they choose to broadcast on the web. NBC24 was a completely non-player in this, and pretty much make their case that they are irrelevant in the Toledo market.

WTVG 13 ABC had minimal coverage online. Their banner for showing warnings only had "Flood Warnings and Watches for Northwest Ohio" while the Tornado Warning was active. Live coverage was non-existent except for the feed of their radar. Now this is their one plus. The radar presentation was good, and I am glad that they actually have a higher resolution radar for accuratly delivering what is going on. I would like to have see a live stream of coverage with the OCM so that way I could compare to WTOL.

WTOL 11 CBS had the most complete coverage I could find, but online live streaming did not start until well after the warning was issued. The OCMs, some new guy I don't know and Robert Shiels was pretty lame. Their fixation on scary looking crap clouds, and their radar presentation was pretty week. They stayed on top of it though, which I have to give them that, but they were focusing more on intensity levels more than storm echo formation, velocities, etc. Pretty much looking at their children's radar it was a big green blob with a yellow blob and an orange blob. The radar they use is so horribly smoothed over you cannot make out any cell definition to really get an accurate view. The radar software I use, www.GrLevelx.Com (GrLevel2 Analyst) is extremely more descriptive of what they have, and it only costs a couple hundred bucks.

So the report card.
Lucas County EMA - F (learn to watch for warnings to give the public a better advanced warning)
NWS North Webster - A (can someone please get them to take over all of the Toledo area, not just half)
NWS Cleveland - D (slow to warn, not progress updates, pretty much exhibits their typical attitude towards Toledo of "only if we have to")
WNWO NBC 24 - F (please just shut down)
WTVG ABC 13 - B (can't rate any higher with no online feed)
WTOL CBS 11 - B (you were online, but your radar product is extremely poor and markets much smaller have higher quality items than that)

created by JustaSooner on Mar 08, 2009 at 07:51:28 pm     Comments: 21

source      versions

Comments ... #

List of LSRs (Local Storm Reports) for the storm in Ohio only:

PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORTHERN INDIANA
605 PM EDT SUN MAR 08 2009

..TIME.. ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON...
..DATE.. ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION.. ST.. ...SOURCE....
..REMARKS..

0604 PM TORNADO 5 W SHERWOOD 41.29N 84.65W
03/08/2009 DEFIANCE OH TRAINED SPOTTER

JERICHO RD AND US 127. TORNADO REPORTED ON THE GROUND
BY 2 SPOTTERS

PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORTHERN INDIANA
604 PM EDT SUN MAR 08 2009

..TIME.. ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON...
..DATE.. ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION.. ST.. ...SOURCE....
..REMARKS..

0601 PM FUNNEL CLOUD CECIL 41.22N 84.60W
03/08/2009 PAULDING OH EMERGENCY MNGR

CR 230 AND 89 NORTH OF CECIL HEADED TOWARDS DEFIANCE
AND PAULDING COUNTY LINE. UNCONFIRMED BRIEF TOUCHDOWN.
NO DAMAGE REPORTED YET.

PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORTHERN INDIANA
611 PM EDT SUN MAR 08 2009

..TIME.. ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON...
..DATE.. ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION.. ST.. ...SOURCE....
..REMARKS..

0608 PM FUNNEL CLOUD SHERWOOD 41.29N 84.55W
03/08/2009 DEFIANCE OH TRAINED SPOTTER

FUNNEL CLOUD APPROACHING SHERWOOD OHIO. TRAINED
SPOTTERS REPORT IT KEEPS TOUCHING DOWN AND GOING BACK
UP.

PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORTHERN INDIANA
629 PM EDT SUN MAR 08 2009

..TIME.. ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON...
..DATE.. ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION.. ST.. ...SOURCE....
..REMARKS..

0623 PM TORNADO NEY 41.38N 84.52W
03/08/2009 DEFIANCE OH EMERGENCY MNGR

NEY FIRE DEPARTMENT FOLLOWING A FUNNEL CLOUD AT THE
BEND AND MOTTER ROAD. DAMAGE AT BUCKSKIN ROAD AND
127...BARN DOWN AND TREES DOWN. HOMES DAMAGED AT 1100
BLOCK OF ST RT 18 IN SHERWOOD. NO INJURIES.

PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORTHERN INDIANA
632 PM EDT SUN MAR 08 2009

..TIME.. ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON...
..DATE.. ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION.. ST.. ...SOURCE....
..REMARKS..

0623 PM FUNNEL CLOUD 2 S MARK CENTER 41.26N 84.63W
03/08/2009 DEFIANCE OH EMERGENCY MNGR

FUNNEL CLOUD HEADED NNE

PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORTHERN INDIANA
634 PM EDT SUN MAR 08 2009

..TIME.. ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON...
..DATE.. ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION.. ST.. ...SOURCE....
..REMARKS..

0632 PM TORNADO DEFIANCE 41.28N 84.36W
03/08/2009 DEFIANCE OH EMERGENCY MNGR

TORNADO SPOTTED NEAR MEIJER STORE AT US24 AND ST RT 66
IN DEFIANCE

PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORTHERN INDIANA
643 PM EDT SUN MAR 08 2009

..TIME.. ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON...
..DATE.. ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION.. ST.. ...SOURCE....
..REMARKS..

0641 PM FUNNEL CLOUD 5 N NAPOLEON 41.47N 84.13W
03/08/2009 HENRY OH EMERGENCY MNGR

FUNNEL CLOUD NEAR GERALD IN HENRY COUNTY

PRELIMINARY LOCAL STORM REPORT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE CLEVELAND OH
737 PM EDT SUN MAR 08 2009

..TIME... ...EVENT... ...CITY LOCATION... ...LAT.LON...
..DATE... ....MAG.... ..COUNTY LOCATION..ST.. ...SOURCE....
..REMARKS..

0720 PM TORNADO 2 NE PERRYSBURG 41.57N 83.60W
03/08/2009 WOOD OH LAW ENFORCEMENT

BRIEF TORNADO REPORTED

posted by JustaSooner on Mar 08, 2009 at 07:57:37 pm     #  

I don't know where you were, but our siren in West Toledo started sounding while the storm was still west of Delta. I think they were way too early.

posted by AmericanPie on Mar 08, 2009 at 08:12:34 pm     #  

AmericanPie....bluntly are you an idiot? To have that amount of warning is imperative to lives being saved in the event of a severe weather event. Sooner is going to chide me for this, but have you ever seen Twister? They were trying to develop a system to get advanced warning out so people could get to shelter. I think it’s appalling they didn’t run the sirens until almost 5 minutes after the warning was issued. I had been watching the storm since it was well west of Fort Wayne and yet when the warning was issued by the National Weather Service in Cleveland, it took almost 5 minutes until the sirens rang. You said it was too soon that the sirens rang, think about this, the storm was outside Delta when the sirens went off. Think of it this way – I live in West Toledo, or 20 miles from Delta, too. A storm moving at 60 mph gets here in 20 minutes, but this storm was moving at 72 mph, if I remember right (which equals about 15 minutes to arrival). Drop in a 5 minute delay, warning time at my house is now 10 minutes. Since the warning is issued county by county and with a polygon, western Lucas County has much less time to react and get to safety.

You’re wrong – when it comes to severe weather, time means lives saved. What really sucks are the false alarms when the county sounds the sirens when warnings aren’t issued. But rather safe then sorry.

posted by avinsurer on Mar 08, 2009 at 08:42:32 pm     #  

Gawd Twister needs to be erased from history. LOL

Av hit most on the head. The purpose of early warning systems is for, oh yeah, early warning. A tornadic storm moving into a densely populated metro area, you side with caution and warn early.

Couple pictures have popped up on WTOL's and WTVG's websites. Some "look" like funnels or tornadoes, but it would seem most aren't.

From WTVG:

Not a funnel at all, just low hanging clouds and more likely just distance playing an optical illusion.

This is probably the best one on WTVG from Waterville. Going from the sun behind the storm, this is looking into it from the east. Looks like it is trying to take on a gust front type formation, which would all but eliminate a tornado threat. However, it is pretty firm and connected, so I would just go with decent storm structure. Also shows how low to the ground the storm was, so that helps. Unfortunately, can't see the base of the storm so really doesn't help.

From WTOL:

It looks good, but typically with a funnel that large, that low to the ground - in as humid of an atmosphere - it would be filled it. Video of this feature would be nice. First impression, not a funnel or tornado. No you don't have to have a solid condensation funnel to the ground to have a tornado - plenty out here in the plains where the funnel won't fill in but you'll have a debris cloud (still at tornado). What do I see? A lighter cloud on the right, ahead of darker clouds in back causing the illusion of a funnel.

Now there is no way to really say one way or the other without viewing video of it, having a trained spotter confirm what was there, or see if there was any damage under the area.

Those are about the only pictures that caught my eye. The rest weren't any help of anything.

posted by JustaSooner on Mar 08, 2009 at 09:48:42 pm     #  

@JustaSooner: Are you a full-time meteorologist? You really think WTOL has a cheap radar?

posted by jashansen on Mar 08, 2009 at 11:00:53 pm     #  

holy carp, there was a tornado warning tonight???? man, I need to keep the music turned down, I never heard a thing.

posted by nana on Mar 08, 2009 at 11:00:59 pm     #  

I heard a siren from my home near South and Broadway. Mom turned on the TV, and there were warnings to get to the basement since there would be no time if the tornado touched down. Sent my nephews to the basement, and went down myself with my mom. I called my 87 year old neighbor first, but she was staying to watch more on TV rather than go to the basement. Called my brother and told him he should not come to pick up his boys, but go to the basement. He started out twice, and turned back when he saw the dark clouds over "75", and later on Miami Street. When I got to the basement I took a chair, and put a pillow over my head. I told my nephew he would have something to talk about the next day in school about sitting in a chair with a pillow over his head. He laughed when he thought about the image. We came up about 10 minutes later when normal radio broadcasting resumed on the FM station we were monitoring.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Mar 08, 2009 at 11:15:49 pm     #  

Jashansen...

Went to the #1 meteorological school in the nation, probably the world. My career unfortunately for the last few years have taken me away from it, but I've been actively storm chasing/spotting for the last 12 years. So yes, I know what I'm talking about. :)

If memory serves me right, looks like they are using either the Millenium system or ESP. ESP is a pretty powerful radar application, if you aren't completely distorting the radar image - which they are. However, it probably comes back to the dish they are using being a low resolution dish. Granted, I'm also use to living in a market where TV stations are paying massive chunks for supremely high resolution dishes. Now granted, especially in cases like this, stations can (and quite a few are) switch over to radar programs (like GRLevel2 AE) that utilize Level 2 radar data from the NWS. This is a higher resolution data set than what most stations normally use when using NWS radar data. All the radar images you see on the NWS site or weather.com is all Level 3 data with lower resolution.

Heck even today, the difference between WTVG's radar image and WTOL's was vast. On WTVG's image you could actually make out indentations or potential inflow notches on the cells to show where there is potential rotation. WTOL, you get a blob. So yes, in a certain sense of the word...they do have a cheap radar, though I'm sure they paid Baron or whatever company a nice penny for it.

posted by JustaSooner on Mar 08, 2009 at 11:41:57 pm     #  

"WS Cleveland officially issued the warning for Lucas/Wood Counties around 6:55 PM. From my contacts, sirens didn't go off for another 5 minutes."

The time difference was two minutes in West Toledo. I had my weather radio on Sunday evening, and the Cleveland NWS announced the tornado warning for Lucas County at 6:56 p.m. The siren in West Toledo sounded at 6:58 p.m., and it stopped at 7:01 p.m.

The NWS said the storm that caused the tornado warning for Lucas County was moving northeast at 57 mph. The NWS listed communities in the path of the storm and the forecast times the storm was to be in the vicinity of those towns. The NWS predicted the cell would pass through the Toledo-Rossford area at 7:15 p.m.

The NWS issued a statement at 7:30 p.m. that said Perrysburg police spotted a tornado near I-75 and route 795 at 7:20 p.m.

If out and about on Sunday, it would have been easy to not envision day with thunderstorms and tornadoes, since the temperatures Sunday afternoon were only the upper 30s with heavy overcast and rain most of the day. The storms preceded a warm front, and now the temp late Sunday night is 50 degrees. Volatile March.

posted by jr on Mar 08, 2009 at 11:45:09 pm     #  

One minute lag time to the NWR system isn't bad. If your siren went off at 658, then it would seem that different people are responsible for the sirens in various locations. Of course your clock could have also been off. I had the time when the warning was delivered to me, which matched the warning text, to when I had someone on the phone state the sirens are now going off - which was 5 minutes. So there was a lag time there of people not being ready.

Cold weather can definitely confuse people since they think "oh its not hot, you can't have a tornado." Warm temps help, but if you got the shear, it has a chance to go. We've already started having our share down here. February 10th, 5 tornadoes, 4 in the Metro (OKC). The largest of course being the EF4 in Lone Grove to our south, while in the Metro 2 EF0s, one EF1, and one EF2.

Just comes down to being weather aware and paying attention to local news and forecasts. Granted, Toledo media has always tended to play down any weather possibilities. Drove me nuts when it came to snow storms up there and Bobby would be like "oh maybe a couple inches" and a foot would be on the ground in the morning, when any weather nut looking at the same computer model data knew Bobby was wrong. But alas...he gets ratings.

posted by JustaSooner on Mar 09, 2009 at 12:00:04 am     #  

For my note-taking purposes, the time on my wristwatch matches the time on our computer which matches the time on my little weather station which matches the so-called official time. To the minute. Could be a difference in the seconds. One flips over to the next minute before the others.

For the record, here's the weather bulletin:

BULLETIN - EAS ACTIVATION REQUESTED
TORNADO WARNING
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE CLEVELAND OH
655 PM EDT SUN MAR 8 2009

THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN CLEVELAND HAS ISSUED A

  • TORNADO WARNING FOR...
    LUCAS COUNTY IN NORTHWEST OHIO...
    THIS INCLUDES THE CITY OF TOLEDO...
    NORTHERN WOOD COUNTY IN NORTHWEST OHIO...
  • UNTIL 745 PM EDT
  • AT 652 PM EDT...NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DOPPLER RADAR INDICATED A
    SEVERE THUNDERSTORM CAPABLE OF PRODUCING A TORNADO 6 MILES WEST OF
    WHITEHOUSE...OR 15 MILES NORTHWEST OF BOWLING GREEN...MOVING
    NORTHEAST AT 57 MPH. THIS STORM HAS HAD A HISTORY OF TORNADOES.
  • THE TORNADO WILL BE NEAR...
    WHITEHOUSE AND WATERVILLE BY 700 PM EDT...
    HOLLAND BY 705 PM EDT...
    PERRYSBURG AND 8 MILES SOUTHEAST OF SYLVANIA BY 710 PM EDT...
    TOLEDO...ROSSFORD AND NORTHWOOD BY 715 PM EDT...
    OREGON BY 720 PM EDT...

posted by jr on Mar 09, 2009 at 12:22:27 am     #  

and then there was the PA announcement after the sirens telling everyone to take cover. That scared me more then the Tornado warnings. I thought I had a ghost in the house. When did this start?

posted by KraZyKat on Mar 09, 2009 at 12:40:13 am     #  

While I'm not judging your ability to accurately read a clock, we'll just go with that not all sirens went on at the same time. Especially those in Western Lucas County didn't go off at the time you said they did in your location.

posted by JustaSooner on Mar 09, 2009 at 12:41:52 am     #  

Gawd Twister needs to be erased from history. LOL
-JustASooner
------------------------------------

Boy, You got that right! LOL On my list of worst big budget films in history

And I LIKE the cute weather girl (Kelly Heidbreder?)on TV 24, myself. She was a blt less morbid and somber than the rest.

posted by Darkseid on Mar 09, 2009 at 07:29:46 am     #  

Agreed with jr, whose observations eerily match my own experiences (and I think we live about a mile apart in West Toledo).

The local news stations were mostly ineffective on this one. While everyone else was scurrying about trying to find out information on the television sets (we had six guests over for dinner), I went to the NOAA website, found the tornado warning alert, and then went to Intellicast.com to observe the local radar, all before 7:00 pm.

Since the storm cell was tracking on a Whitehouse-Holland-South Toledo path, I made the decision not to take cover in the basement. The closest the cell came to my home was about five miles, near the I-475 / I-75 split. My decision was also based on the fact that the cell weakened the further east it traveled, and by the time it reached the Toledo border, it no longer had the intensity it possessed when it was in western Lucas County.

Still, I am glad to see that the sirens would have given me at least 10 minutes to take cover during this fast-moving (57 MPH) storm cell.

posted by historymike on Mar 09, 2009 at 09:15:06 am     #  

Considering the storm is still considered to have produced a funnel over Perrysburg, discounting the storm based on the "colors" on radar is not really a good thing. And unfortunately NEXRAD coverage in Toledo proper is poor at best, so velocity images would be even harder to decipher for untrained eyes more so than normal.

posted by JustaSooner on Mar 09, 2009 at 11:35:16 am     #  

Fair enough, JustaSooner. I am assuming that the "Sooner" component of your nom de Internet is a reference to Oklahoma, which automatically makes you more knowledgeable than me on matters tornado-related, since Oklahoma ranks near the top of the list of killer tornadoes and total number of tornadoes.

I expect that the only thing Sooners fear more than a victory by the University of Texas Longhorns in the Red River Rivalry is a tornado.

:-}

posted by historymike on Mar 09, 2009 at 11:57:33 am     #  

The early warning systems do a good job. If I had a wish I'd like to see the system improved to where instead of the siren going off county-wide, a computer system would determine the direction of travel of the system in question and only sound sirens in the affected areas.
Sure, it sounds like we're spoiled, and we are, but every time the sirens sound in an area that isn't directly affected, people are more likely to ignore them in the future.

Last night when I heard the sirens in west toledo I checked "weatherbug" radar and there was nothing in our area and almost nothing coming our way.

posted by JeepMaker on Mar 09, 2009 at 12:46:30 pm     #  

Mike - fear probably isn't the word, respect is probably it. The media weather coverage here is second to none and really indepth compared to anywhere else. Sometimes the discussions can get pretty descriptive and scientific, but the population here has been educated so much over the years that most understand it. Of course we have been extremely spoiled since the vast majority of the weather technology used for media (on screen warning maps, storm tracking radar, etc) was developed here - and the guy that did most of it is still the chief met for the local CBS affiliate here. Today we get see things in action, though not a major severe weather day (though things can change) and the locals will do their thing.

Jeep...things are improving. I'm not sure if they show it up there a lot, but if you look at the weather.gov site for warnings at all - you'll notice that all warnings are polygons now and no longer county wide by default. Most weather service offices will draw out the path/portion of the county that will be impacted directly by the severe weather. Like yesterday, only the northern 1/4th of Wood County was included in the warning. However, Cleveland did include the entire area of Lucas County which they probably didn't need to do. I would say they defaulted with caution because the storm had a history of multiple areas of rotation in the storm (north side and south side of storm), so it was hard to just limit the warning to the southern one.

posted by JustaSooner on Mar 09, 2009 at 03:31:49 pm     #  

When the sirens went off I looked out the windows in all four directions and saw patches of blue sky and sunshine interspersed with some fast racing dark clouds. There was no rain either. I live smack dab in the middle of the Village of Holland. Was there really a storm and where the heck was it?

posted by holland on Mar 09, 2009 at 07:08:24 pm     #  

I prefer the intellicast radar, but it was hours behind when I checked it Sunday evening, so I referred to Wunderground.

posted by jr on Mar 09, 2009 at 09:36:46 pm     #  

Login or create an account to post a comment.