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Zoo levy to build $7.5M playground

Sep 7, 2007 Blade story

The project may be built in two phases, with the $2 million second phase constructed only as donations are made to complete construction. Groundbreaking for the first $5.5 million phase will take place in February. That portion will be paid for through the 1-mill, 10-year capital improvement levy Lucas County voters approved in November.

Donations as in another levy? It's for the kids, after all, and the project can't be left unfinished.

The indoor-outdoor design will make the zoo a place for “rainy Saturday mornings,” said zoo Executive Director Anne Baker. “This is the place where Joey, who’s 4 years old, can run and can be noisy, and he can get dirty,” she said.

The idea behind the children’s area is to induce the kind of “interactive play” that best teaches children up to 8 years old about their connection with nature, said Mitch Magditch, the zoo’s education director. “We want to build an attachment to animals through engaging play in a safe environment with intergenerational and cooperative learning,” Mr. Magditch said.

In other words, go crazy, kids. It’s safe, and it’s all good.

I'd like to think kids will learn about their connection with nature, but I think this is a bullshit zoo claim meant to justify the expense for a project that's not needed. What about our taxpayer-supported city parks and Metroparks? What about the nature preserves and wildlife areas around here, such as Kitty Todd Nature Preserve, Irwin Prairie State Nature Preserve, Mallard Marsh, Metzger Marsh, Magee Marsh, Ottawa National Wildlife Refuge, Maumee Bay State Park, W.W. Knight Nature Preserve, etc? And what about places like 577 Foundation, Toledo Botanical Gardens, Stranahan Arboretum, and so on?

Levy money will be used so little Joey can go crazy. What's in it for the adults who don't have kids? At least the normal parts of the zoo are for everyone. Let all the parents will little Joeys pay for a playground with their own money. And maybe little Joey wouldn't be so crazy if he wasn't drinking so much soda pop.

Children will begin their visit to the fenced exhibit by entering a room where they will encounter pets: dogs or cats, and maybe some guinea pigs, or a budgie — a small parrot.

You can see that by walking around a pet store that's not supported by tax dollars.

In the next area, kids become animals, painting their faces to transform themselves, and perhaps donning a beak to play a bird. With the beak, they may want to try fishing (for styrene fish) bird-style, to see if maybe they should stick to worms. They can perch, surrounded by birds in a new aviary area, or even build a bird house.

Morons. Go to a frigging metropark or a one of our fine local wildlife areas and watch the birds in a natural setting. Oh, gee, in a natural setting, you may encounter some mosquitoes, bees, wasps, and other flying things, and you may have to pull spider webs off your face. Or you may encounter heat, cold, rain, snow, and mud if you're in the OUTDOORS. Or you may even have to walk a mile or two if you're outdoors. Walking is probably a foreign concept for kids. Indoors in a controlled, sterile environment with food stands and restrooms nearby is somehow a more preferable way for kids to learn about and connect with nature.

Kids can connect with nature by reading non-fiction and fiction books that would hopefully spur their interest to visit a city park, then a metropark, and then a wildlife area. The school system could dedicate a little time in a science class to the Oak Openings Region, which is a unique, local area.

The Toledo Zoo's butterfly conservation projects seem fine, but I'm not a zoo guy. I've been to the Toledo Zoo a couple of times. It's nice. I enjoyed certain parts of it, but I prefer to see what naturally occurs around here, every month of the year by visiting our parks and wildlife areas. I learn more about nature that way than by going to a zoo, which no matter how it's constructed, the zoo is not natural. Seeing a Golden-crowned Kinglet in the Toledo area on a bitter cold day in January or February is more impressive than anything at the zoo, once you understand the Golden-crowned Kinglet.

In order to "connect with nature" you have to observe and learn about what naturally occurs right around you, including in your backyard. I live in West Toledo, and I don't see guinea pigs running around in our backyard. I do see chipmunks. Last week, I saw a Red-Tailed Hawk in a neighbor's tree eating a chipmunk. I've seen Cooper's Hawks snag Mourning Doves and House Sparrows in our backyard. That's impressive. Will this new zoo playground teach kids about the differences between a Cooper's Hawk and a Red-Tailed Hawk?

I wonder if this new zoo interactive playground will have an exhibit that shows what exists in nature before and after an area of land is bulldozed and turned into another housing division or strip mall? I wonder if this new zoo kids playground will discuss in detail what's involved in preserving land and how developers and politicians work together to acquire land for development?

Is that too much information for a 5 or 6 year old? I'm not sure. The zoo thinks kids at this age will connect with nature.

Will this new zoo playground have an Oak Openings Region section that educates the kids on how special and important this local area is? If not, then this zoo playground is a definite waste of money and time, and it will not educate the kids about nature. The zoo, the kids, the adults, and nature would be better off if the zoo used that $7.5 million to buy land in the Oak Openings Region to save it from development like the Metroparks has been doing.

What's impressive about the zoo is its ROI. For every taxpayer dollar the zoo receives, the zoo returns five or six dollars back into the local economy. So in a spreadsheet numbers kind of way, it's easy to justify voting for zoo levies. Is this new zoo kids playground meant to generate more revenue? If so, fine, advertise it like that. But don't insult our intelligence by claiming it will help kids learn about nature. Compared to this new zoo addition, kids would probably learn more about nature by playing a Bassmasters video game.

There will be goats and guinea pigs to hang around with, a rock-climbing wall, a cave to hibernate in, and a slide to play otter on.

Oh yeah, that will teach the kids about the dynamics of bird migration and the importance of preserving habitat, which these migrating birds use as refueling stations as they travel hundreds or even thousands of miles between their breeding and wintering grounds. I'm sure going down a slide will teach the kids about factory and farm field runoff into rivers and streams. Ah, but again, that's probably too much info for such young people, right? Face painting is more acceptable.

Another thing I don't like about this new zoo project is this: teaches children up to 8 years old.

That's only through second grade. First of all, that's pretty young to be expecting a kid to connect with nature. Granted, kids need to be "brainwashed" early on about the fascinating aspects and importance of nature, but it needs to continue up to at least sixth or seventh grade.

Nature, however, should not be forced upon a child. Expose the child to nature by visiting nature not a playground and let the child form the connection on his or her own. This connection may not occur until the child becomes an adult. A kid could be involved in nature at an early age, then drift away from it for the next 20 years or so, but then come back to nature later in life due to the exposure to it at an early age. And I don't see this happening with the kid romping around with other kids in a controlled environment playground.

The Black Swamp Bird Observatory educational programs for young people:

I was around 5 years old when I started going with my Dad when he went squirrel hunting. I enjoyed being out in the woods, walking up and down those eastern Ohio hills. I started observing birds and other aspects of nature around that time, but I don't know if I had a connection with nature at age 5. I just liked it. I started carrying my own gun when I was in sixth grade after going through gun safety training. I hunted squirrel and grouse with my Dad through high school. We also trapped mink and muskrat in the late fall and early winter for a few years. Then we started fishing when I was in college, and we still fish together today (catch and release) when I visit my parents. My parents come up here in the spring so I can take them birdwatching at Magee Marsh.

My "connection with nature" today is due to my Dad taking me out into the woods and due to my Dad having birdfeeders and Purple Martin houses in the yard. When I was in grade school, I studied a bird field guide, and I read books and magazines about hunting and trapping. Fur-Fish-Game was a favorite magazine.

And I don't believe this new zoo project is serving an urban need when we already have city parks and other nearby parks. Heck, you can watch the Peregrine Falcons in downtown Toledo, and also this year at UT.

Observing and learning about one aspect of nature usually leads to an interest in something else. Today, I birdwatch and fish. From birdwatching, I have generated an interest in native plants, butterflies, dragonflies, and moths. Yes, moths.

One thing nature requires that many kids and adults probably don't have is patience. A controlled exhibit can keep kids constantly entertained and involved in some way, but it's not natural. You're only exposed to so much in a controlled environment. Kids won't get the randomness of nature with this new zoo exhibit. You won't have the fortunate luck of seeing a Merlin snag a Tree Swallow out of the air unless you spend time outside.

Obviously, a 5 year old won't be going to a local metropark or wildlife area on his or her own. A parent or a grandparent or an adult guardian needs to have a tiny interest in nature or at least be interested in helping the kid. Adults play a part in whether or not a kid "connects with nature." I suppose dumping the kids at the zoo is easier for the parents than walking around Oak Openings Metropark. So is this new zoo playground simply a taxpayer-funded daycare center, so parents don't have to parent?

I think this new taxpayer-funded zoo project will do more harm to nature in the long run because kids at an early age will only think of nature as some sort of theme park.

created by jr on Sep 07, 2007 at 11:34:31 am     Comments: 16

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Comments ... #

While I agree with your points, I'm thinking that shutting the kids off in their own area makes the rest of the zoo pretty enjoyable...

Actually, I'm just kidding - but I couldn't help but think about this ... especially in this day of planned 'play dates' for kids that always have structured activities in which to participate...

posted by MaggieThurber on Sep 07, 2007 at 11:42:00 am     #



"I wonder if this new zoo interactive playground will have an exhibit that shows what exists in nature before and after an area of land is bulldozed and turned into another housing division or strip mall?"

Why would the zoo do an exihibit about farmland in Perrysburg Township?

posted by thenick on Sep 07, 2007 at 12:00:31 pm     #



thenick, it's happening in Lucas County with the continual development of the Oak Openings Region. Seven years ago, I saw a billboard along Central Ave/Route 20 near Secor Metropark which said: "The Oak Openings Region, A Natural Wonder Disappearing Near You."

At Kitty Todd or one of the other parks in the OOR, you can pick up a booklet titled "Living in the Oak Openings - A Homeowner's Guide to one of the World's Last Great Places."

From the Oak Openings Region Web site :

This globally distinct ecosystem has been designated by the Nature Conservancy, a renowned conservation organization, as "One of the 200 Last Great Places on Earth."

Sadly, this habitat is disappearing at an alarming rate as natural areas within the region are being destroyed by urban sprawl. Of the 84,000 acres in the Oak Openings region, ecologists have identifies 6,000 acres of high-quality greenspace running like a ribbon through the area.

We hope to protect this habitat by creating a biological and recreational corridor of preserved land-a "green ribbon" of natural beauty, rare plant and animal species, and quality recreation opportunities stretching across Northwest Ohio and Southeastern Michigan.

The Oak Openings Region is located mostly in Lucas County not Wood County. Urban sprawl is not just a Wood County issue.

Besides finding that booklet at an area park, you should also be able to find a 30-minute DVD documentary that aired on local PBS titled "Oak Openings Region: Discovering Our Natural Heritage."

Inside that booklet I mentioned is a photo with the following caption: "Mitch Magdich (Toledo Zoo) at Oak Openings teachers' workshop."

The Toledo Zoo is involved with Oak Openings Region conservation, so I believe it's natural as a taxpayer to wonder if this new zoo playground will in some way involve a local natural wonder in order to help a kid connect with nature.

I wonder if the local schools teach kids a little about the Oak Openings Region? Probably not since that info would not be asked on a standardized test.

Also from the OOR Web site:

[The Oak Openings Region] has long been recognized by naturalists as one of Ohio’s preeminent natural regions because of its rich diversity of vegetation. The region harbors more rare species than any other of a similar size in the state and sustains two globally rare communities, oak savanna and wet prairie.

I would say most people living in this area are unaware of how unique the Oak Openings Region is. And it's not just Oak Openings Metropark. That's just one piece of the region.

posted by jr on Sep 07, 2007 at 12:43:41 pm     #



I think having an area where people can come and see children in their natural habitat is a good idea. After all from what I read we are not repopulating fasts enough and assuring our species is being maintained sounds like good planning

posted by bill on Sep 07, 2007 at 02:58:08 pm     #



jr,
You talk about the metro park and the oak opernings and buying land. Have you ever given any thought to this: Everytime the Metro Park Use taxpayer monies to purchase land. There goes more land off the tax roles and you will be making up this loss of revenue thru future property tax increases (i.e. School levies, zoo levies, etc..). Because once the metro park purchaes the land any taxes due are paid at closing and any future taxes go uncollected!!!!
And Second You will also paying in additional taxes to the Metro Parks Just for upkeep. Becasue the Land purchased in the Oak Openings Region is left untouched. But someone from the Metro park is paid to patrol this Land.
I would much rather see the land stay in private ownershiip and property taxes collected, than my property taxes raised in the future due to a loss in tax base.
With that in Mind My wife and I WILL NOT VOTE FOR ANOTHER METRO PARK LEVEY.

posted by home02 on Sep 07, 2007 at 08:57:50 pm     #



That's okay, home02, because the one thing people like you will never have to worry about is being called sophisticated. And you're still a sucker for buying a Honda Civic hybrid, so I don't expect anything intelligent coming from you.

"There goes more land off the tax roles and you will be making up this loss of revenue thru future property tax increases ..."

That crap sounds like something from right out of the pro-sprawl handbook. So why did you build a brand new home in rural western Lucas County instead of buying an existing home within the city or a town? Tax reasons? Just wanted to get away from it all? Are you an isolationist?

If Toledo's public schools didn't suck, and if assclowns didn't run city/county government, citizens and businesses would not be leaving Toledo/Lucas County, which means we would have more tax revenue. We have plenty of vacant buildings and homes within the city of Toledo, but apparently for more attractive reasons, people and businesses prefer outside Toledo and increasingly, outside Lucas County.

Why does Toledo's population decrease but our taxes increase? It's not because the Metroparks buys some land in the Oak Openings Region.

No doubt about it, the Metroparks is one of the gems of Lucas County and this region, but you, home02, plan to vote against future Metroparks levies, but you brag about driving a hybrid vehicle. I would say the definition of the word "dumbass" is "home02."

posted by jr on Sep 07, 2007 at 10:16:32 pm     #



Once again we have been "suckered" by a levy. Was is not so long ago that we needed to SAVE our zoo with a zoo levy? Now, I guess they have too much money because they're building a 7.5 million dollar playground. I'm outraged at this. The zoo has screwed us again. First they say that with every $1 they bring in, 4-5 dollars are returned to the local economy. What facts back this B.S. up? Absolutely none. It is merely a guess, no actual date could ever prove such an outrageous claim. Then, they needed a levy to keep the "cute little animals". As soon as the levy passes, they want to build a butterfly exhibit. Isn't there a "Butterfly House" already in existance? Yes, and they do a great job. Why is the zoo trying to cut into their livelyhood? Now, I guess they have just too much money and want to build a playground for what? 7.5 million dollars? Give me a break! There is already a playground at the zoo and it is filled with brats that parents can't handle for a full day of zoo visit so they let them run wild and bully other children while the parents sit and dream of drinking and smoking their public assistance away while someone else deals with their unruly children.
I guess we don't have enough parks, playgrounds, and street corners for our kids already so now we'll have a great place for gangs to call their own. Whoops, I'm sorry, connect with nature. Once again, a place where kids can be thrown while parents can be relieved of their parenting duties.
Great job Toledo and Toledo Zoo, can't wait to move out!

posted by tommy1 on Sep 08, 2007 at 02:44:25 pm     #



ps- I guess we needed a place to put the e-coli bacteria that couldn't grow in all the public pools this past year.

posted by tommy1 on Sep 08, 2007 at 02:49:08 pm     #



JR,
Thank You!

posted by home02 on Sep 09, 2007 at 07:55:34 am     #



home02 said:

Because once the metro park purchaes the land any taxes due are paid at closing and any future taxes go uncollected!!!!

And Second You will also paying in additional taxes to the Metro Parks Just for upkeep.

Becasue the Land purchased in the Oak Openings Region is left untouched. But someone from the Metro park is paid to patrol this Land.

Two comments by home02 and no acknowledgment about the cost of abandoned real estate in Toledo. Homes, buildings, stores, lots, brownfields, etc. How much taxpayer money is lost and wasted on the abandoned properties in Toledo? I wonder if a number can be generated to provide this answer? If it could, it would probably dwarf the amount of taxpayer money the Metroparks is using to buy land in the Oak Openings Region.

When an abandoned structure in Toledo catches fire, can we not send the Toledo Fire Department to fight the fire? Can we just let it burn itself out? If the burning abandoned structure catches an occupied property on fire, then the fire department can be dispatched. Let's only spend the tax dollars when needed.

Let's also only repair sidewalks and roads that are in front of occupied structures and skip past the abandoned properties. That way we'll have an interesting patchwork of good and bad roads and sidewalks.

The Toledo police should ignore any questionable activity occurring on abandoned real estate, such as a home that's for sale but is unoccupied.


At last Saturday's Fall Warbler Symposium in Lakeside, Ohio, Toledoan Dr. Elliot Tramer gave a presentation about the wintering grounds for warblers, which are migrating through our area right now on their way to Central and South America and the Caribbean Islands. Dr. Tramer touched on the destruction of habitat in those areas, but he also mentioned that habitat loss occurs in the Toledo area.

Dr. Tramer said that in recent decades, the Toledo area population has remained unchanged, but the amount of developed land has doubled. Doesn't that mean that the Toledo area has a hell of a lot of abandoned real estate?

  • population unchanged
  • developed land doubled

Seems a bit out of whack, doesn't it? Is it unique to Lucas County? I don't care. I'm not talking about another county. The Oak Openings Region, however, is unique to Lucas County. The OOR does enter a couple other counties, but most of it lies within Lucas County.

Read, watch, listen, and learn. Acquire these two bits of info.

Again, The Nature Conservancy has designated our very own Oak Openings Region as "One of the 200 Last Great Places on Earth." Not one of the 200 last great places in Ohio or the Midwest or the U.S. but on Earth. It's sad and disturbing that the magnitude of such a designation is lost on people like home02. Hopefully, for every troglodyte like home02, at least 10 normal, caring, informative individuals exist. The problem is, many if not most of the residents in the Toledo area are unaware of how special the Oak Openings Region is.


From the Oak Openings Region documentary, Terry Seidel, Dir. Real Estate and Land Management for The Nature Conservancy said :

Time in and time out, it's been shown that communities are much more valuable if they're developed in a way that preserves these green space areas that allows for parks, for people ... allows people the chance to get out and to appreciate them. And I think that's going to be the long-term key for the northwest Ohio area is to find that balance between what we develop and what we don't develop.

It's not about saying 'No more development. We must stop development.' It's about finding that balance between the two, so that we can all benefit in the end.

Seidel talked about "balance." But in Lucas County, does population unchanged and developed land doubled sound like a balance? And people like home02 get upset when some special land is trying to be saved.


Also from the documentary, Philip Williams Vice Pres. Black Swamp Conservancey said :

We want to purchase this land from willing sellers to create an even larger protected Oak Openings area.


The documentary mentioned that beginning in the 1960's, Toledo's population started migrating outward to other communities and into the Oak Openings Region. The OOR land was once considered useless for agriculture but then became a desirable area to build a home.

A couple images from the documentary that showed land usage in the Toledo area in 1981 and in 1997:

That's a lot of suburban residential growth in 16 short years for an area with an overall population that has remained steady or declined while the U.S. population continues to increase rapidly. I'd also like to see this land-use data represented by number of acres or square miles, but that info may not be obtainable.

How much smaller would the parks/forested areas be in a satellite image for 2007? I think it's safe to say that new development has occurred in the past 10 years outside Toledo but within Lucas County. And how much green will be left in 10 or 20 years from now? And what did it look like 30 or 40 years ago?

Population Numbers for Lucas County :

  • 1970 = 484,370
  • 1980 = 471,741
  • 1990 = 462,361
  • 2000 = 455,054
  • 2006 est. = 445,281

Population continues to decline, but the big yellow area on the satellite image grows at the expense of green spaces. I don't understand how someone cannot be bothered by this. And it's not just any 'ol land that's getting destroyed. The amount of development could be somewhat understood if Lucas County's population had grown by a 100,000, since 1970.


The partners in Oak Openings conservation :

  • Oak Openings Region Conservancy
  • Black Swamp Conservancy
  • Metroparks of the Toledo Area
  • Toledo Naturalists’ Association
  • Toledo Zoological Society
  • Lucas Soil and Water Conservation District
  • The Nature Conservancy
  • ODNR Division of Natural Areas and Preserves
  • ODNR Division of Wildlife
  • ODNR Division of Forestry
  • U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

I'm guessing the "partners" for development have a lot more money and political clout. And unfortunately, an uninformed public is more fascinated by a new shopping mall than a natural wonder.

posted by jr on Sep 11, 2007 at 04:51:17 pm     #



I think I should have said: Toledo area resident Dr. Elliot Tramer ...

posted by jr on Sep 11, 2007 at 04:58:01 pm     #



I do not know why people are upset over the Zoo's plan to build a Childrens area at the zoo. It was clearly defined in the verbaige used to justify the levy when introduced in 2006.

From the Zoo website

Preserve the Wonder... Funds from Issue 13 will be used to:

Preserve and improve the Zoo's Aquarium and other historic WPA-era buildings
Complete major repairs and maintenance
Reinvent our Children's Zoo so that kids and school groups can use it year-round, rain or shine
Help the Zoo implement ways to save energy and reduce utility costs
Improve the elephant and rhino exhibits
Make other necessary upgrades throughout the Zoo

and from a Blade article...

The capital levy is slated to help fund more space for the zoo's elephants and rhinos as well as pay for a new Children's Zone

The childrens area at he zoo will be much more then a "playground". It will be an educational exhibit which teach our kids about nature through an environment most condusive to a childs way of thinking. PLAY

To call it a playground lends itself to visualizations of swing sets, see-saws and slides commonly found in any park setting. It will not be so. The Zoo activley sought input into what visitors wanted in a new Childrens area through online surveys and other questionaires and carefuly incorporated into the design.

The people who voted for the levy thought this to be an important enough attribute for Zoo expansion that they were confident in supporting it through passage of the levy.

If it turns out to be a swing set playground I will be throughly disappointed and eat crow here on TT. But untill we see the end results let's not belittle it by calling it a "playground".

Just my opinion.

posted by KraZyKat on Sep 11, 2007 at 08:24:28 pm     #



Okay, instead of a "playground" I will call it a "dumping ground" or a "daycare center" where parents can get rid of their kids for a few hours on "rainy Saturday mornings." From the Sep 7, 2007 Blade story:

“This is the place where Joey, who’s 4 years old, can run and can be noisy, and he can get dirty,” she said. In other words, go crazy, kids.

Yeah, kids never run and go crazy and make noise and get dirty at a playground.

If the point here is to teach very young kids about nature, the Toledo area already has some parks that offer educational opportunities on the subject.

And then the price tag: $7.5 million for a children's zone? That amount wasn't mentioned in any of the 2006 literature prior to the levy. And is a Children's Zoo and a Children's Zone the same thing?

posted by jr on Sep 11, 2007 at 11:38:17 pm     #



I seem to recall something about expanding the elephant area...that without the capital levy, they'd have to get rid of Louie because of space requirements...In fact, the elephant was on their yard signs.

Anyone know how that fits in with the children's zone?

posted by MaggieThurber on Sep 12, 2007 at 11:30:46 am     #



What's getting lost in this discussion is that fact that having a top ten zoo in our community helps make Toledo attractive. It drives our larger economic engine. All of these "what's in it for me" comments miss the larger point. I live in Toledo and do not have kids, and I gladly support institutions like the zoo, the museum, symphony and opera – they're the best things we have going.

posted by undawater on Sep 12, 2007 at 02:02:30 pm     #



Nothing is "lost" here because I said in the initial posting:

What's impressive about the zoo is its ROI. For every taxpayer dollar the zoo receives, the zoo returns five or six dollars back into the local economy. So in a spreadsheet numbers kind of way, it's easy to justify voting for zoo levies.

From the Toledo Zoo Web link that KraZyKat posted above:

  • Over the last ten years, each levy dollar the Zoo received has returned $6.50 in LOCAL economic activity, creating jobs outside the Zoo.
  • From 1996-2005, The Toledo Zoo had a $664 million economic impact in LUCAS COUNTY.

And here's info I posted in 2003 or 2004 to my old, defunct site ToledoArts.com:

A new study shows the Toledo Zoo is providing a substantial return on taxpayer investment. Executive Director Bill Dennler says the study indicates for every tax dollar the zoo receives, it generates about 8 dollars in local economic activity, and the zoo's annual impact on the local economy is estimated at 70 million dollars. Also, the study says people from outside the zoo's primary market area spend 22 million dollars per year at local businesses when visiting the zoo. The study was conducted by the Center for Policy Analysis and Public Service at Bowling Green State University.

So we're already aware of the positive economic impact the zoo provides for the area.


"I gladly support institutions like the zoo, the museum, symphony and opera – they're the best things we have going."

You forgot to mention our attractive Metroparks, nature preserves, wildlife areas, and even some city parks. That's the discussion.

Why spend 7.5 million taxpayer dollars on a children's zone at the zoo that will supposedly teach kids under the age of 9 about nature when we already have these wonderful taxpayer-supported parks that can teach kids about nature?

posted by jr on Sep 12, 2007 at 02:36:26 pm     #