Health Care Bill language -- quoted.

Thanks, TAHL, for the link to the bill.

I suppose you're trying to deride the bill for making what sounds like a contradictory statement. But, by following the link you so kindly provided, I read back a ways and found that the piece you quoted was in a section on Definitions.

Actually read the section, and it makes sense.

Yeah, thanks AHL. This is just what I need to cheer me up this morning. Remind me to piss in your Wheaties next week.

Ironically enough, piss and Wheaties is the cornerstone of the existing national health system.

So if I understand that section correctly, if you choose not to buy health insurance you will be taxed up to an extra 2.5% of your gross income?

I hope so. It's about time people took responsibility for their health care and bought insurance, as long as it's affordable and coverage is reasonable. That group of folks who can get insurance but decline it have added to the costs of the premiums I and my employees have paid for years. Those people gambled with my money. If they got sick and couldn't pay, my premiums were priced higher because hospitals add those losses to every paying customers bill. Nice. Real nice.

Yes, Jack, that is correct. The 2.5% is equal to the cost of the public option health insurance.

If you decide to forgo any health insurance and choose to gamble that you will never get sick or injured, the government will make you pay. That way, when you do end up sick or injured, the rest of us don't end up paying for your gamble.

But if you do take their insurance the rest of us STILL have to pay for you.....hmmm

That doesn't make any sense.

I got my copy of the Atlantic in the mail yesterday and found this article about the current health care system to be very enlightening:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care

The gist seems to be that the current proposals are only increasing access to an already deeply flawed system, potentially overwhelming us with health care costs that will exceed the 18% of our GDP that we currently spend on our health care systems.

If the current rate of increase continues unabated, health care costs will get to that level anyway. The diffenence is it will cover fewer and fewer people for the even more money, generating even bigger profits for the health insurance industry, and leavng those with coverage footing the bill for the uninsured. No Thanks.

20% to 30% of each insurance company premium dollar is spent on stuffing money into insurance company pockets. Another 30% is spent on fighting the payment of claims to their customers, and, making sure they don't insure sick people. Then there is the amount they give to your elected officials, making sure you continue to get really really screwed on your health care.

Our enemy isn't the concept of insuring all Americans, our enemy is a well entrenched fascist system where our voice is bought every day by corporations or ,, the highest bidder. I don't see any way to recover from it. If there were such a will and method to recover the country, high level national security agencies would have acted 50 years ago. They are a part of it apparently. I don't really give a damn anymore, I'll follow orders like a good little fascist. Put who in the ovens? Yes sir!
But if you think things are bad now, just wait, the 25 to 45 trillion the fascists stole will burden this country for a hundred years. It will topple our country and it was very intentional.

There is a much more lucid question for society than ""should we allow our countrymen to have health care without forcing them to bankruptcy"". It's barbaric and vile to even ask such a question. The question is will your children be able to survive in a system where they and their grand children's children are banished to a life of competition with chinese lackeys who make $5 a week.
Within this decade, because of the wall street banking and political corruption that allowed the fraud, this country won't be able to defend its own stupid ass.

Well I'm about to start my daily reading of 50 or so pages.....

Update soon.

TAHL

SEC. 59C. SURCHARGE ON HIGH INCOME INDIVIDUALS.

(a) GENERAL RULE.—In the case of a taxpayer
other than a corporation, there is hereby imposed (in addition to any other tax imposed by this subtitle) a tax equal to—

(1) 1 percent of so much of the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer as exceeds $350,000 but does not exceed $500,000,
(2) 1.5 percent of so much of the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer as exceeds $500,000 but does not exceed $1,000,000, and
(3) 5.4 percent of so much of the modified adjusted gross income of the taxpayer as exceeds $1,000,000.

I guess I should be happy that at least the authors as calling it what it is. Pure, unadulterated class envy.

TAHL

Oh....that's so tough for those in that income bracket to manage isn't it? Right now, today, I pay a higher total percentage of my total persoanl income in taxes than Warren Buffet. It's not class envy, it's fairness.

FAIRNESS!!!!!!!!!

Whether Warren Buffet, or Bill Gates, or I work hard, save, use our talents to invent and invest, to better ourselves and our families has nothing to do with FAIRNESS.

For the Govt. to take from me and GIVE TO YOU or anyone else, is "fair??!!!!" I am MY BROTHERS KEEPER, not YOUR BROTHERS KEEPER.

It has nothing do do with how "tough it is for those * * * to manage." They are the ones who employ the most people, PAY THE MOST TAXES, and give the most to charity.

TAHL

Under Improvements to Medicaid is,

SEC. 1156. LIMITATION ON MEDICARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE PROHIBITION ON CERTAIN PHYSICIAN RE
FERRALS MADE TO HOSPITALS.

So there are prohibitiosn on physician referrals, and there are exceptions to the prohibition. Now they will limit the exception. But there is no rationing of care in this bill!!! Here is whats under that heading.

(f) REPORTING AND DISCLOSURE REQUIRE8
MENTS.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—Each entity providing covered items or services for which payment may be made under this title shall provide the Secretary with the information concerning the entity’s owner ship, investment, and COMPENSATION ARRANGEMENTS ,including—

(B) the names and unique physician identification numbers of all physicians with an ownership or investment interest (as described In subsection (a)(2)(A)), or with a compensation arrangement (as described in subsection (a)(2)(B)), in the entity, or whose IMMEDIATE RELATIVES have such an ownership or investment interest or who have such a compensation relationship with the entity.

Such information shall be provided in such form, manner, and at such times as the SECRETARY SHALL SPECIFY."

I work hard too, bub. And you aren't giving me or any other hard working taxpayer anything. You're paying back into a system that provided an economy and resources so that you could prosper. It's patriotic to PAY your taxes, not whine about paying what you think isn't fair. I beg to differ on the most charity giving and the most employment aspect too. But's those are other topics.

Try to think of it like you do real estate taxes. Surely you don’t believe that a homeowner that lives in a house worth 500k should pay the same amount as someone in a house worth 100k.

Holland, "bub" made me laugh. You don't hear that very often.

It isn't patriotic to pay your taxes. The only reason most people pay taxes is because they are forced to, or are you telling me that if our country abolished taxes, you would still send the government your share every year even if you didn’t have to, because it's patriotic???

What a dumb ass question - No taxes means no government which means no roads, no airports, yada yada yada and nobody works. The absence of government is anarchy. Where WERE you in Civics class anyway?

It was a hypothetical question. I know our coutry wouldn't survive without taxes. I was just asking if they did would you because you think it's patriotic.

Plus I didn't ask if our country would survive if we abolished taxes. I asked if you would still pay if they did.

Hypothetically, having history of a community activist, organizer and elected official, I would probably join forces with others who would see the coming anarchy and who also understood the value in a government funded through taxes that provides services, in order to pool our resources for survival. I only deal in plausible hypotheticals. So yes, under those circumstances I would voluntarily pay taxes. It wouldn't be long before the government crumbled anyway and group affiliation for survival would be critical.

That is a plausible hypotheticals. Since nearly 45% of the United States didn't pay any of their taxes last year. How much longer do you think it will be before that number jumps???

sorry didn't mean owe, but pay zero or are in the negative and get a return.

• "It's patriotic to PAY your taxes, not whine about paying what you think isn't fair."

• "Try to think of it like you do real estate taxes. Surely you don’t believe that a homeowner that lives in a house worth 500k should pay the same amount as someone in a house worth 100k."

• "... are you telling me that if our country abolished taxes, you would still send the government your share every year even if you didn’t have to, because it's patriotic???"

The Bartley Lofts in downtown Toledo sell for approx $150,000 to $300,000. A person living in any of those lofts gets a nice-long tax abatement [pdf file]. This kind of bribe is lauded as some kind of economic development.

I'm guessing a Toledoan living elsewhere in the city in a $100,000 home pays more than $380 a year in real estate taxes.

That would be a good counter if it wasn’t a limited abatement that the county made with developers to encourage growth.

"It's patriotic to PAY your taxes, not whine about paying what you think isn't fair."

So our founding fathers who complained that the brit's were overtaxing us werent patriotic?

(BTW, they were being taxed WAY LESS than we are now)

The main issue in 1776 was Taxation Without Representation. I assume you participate in the representative democracy in which you reside. Crap. Either the schools don't teach history or civics today or you were absent a lot.

Oh, please, billy. Stop with the founding fathers, fer chrissakes.

We were being taxed without representation. They were not allowed to produce their own goods, and forced to buy them from Britain, and then taxed on them.

Holland's got it right. It is patriotic to invest in your country. If you have been blessed to earn more, than you should be happy you are fortunate enough to pay more. Our tax rate is much lower than many other countries, particularly for the upper brackets.

And TAHL, get a grip. Such information shall be provided in such form, manner, and at such times as the SECRETARY SHALL SPECIFY.

It means they will come up with a form, and whoever wants to receive reimbursement will have to fill out the proper paperwork.

Geez, it's not like they're saying they'll make you write it in lamb's blood across your doorpost. Sheesh.

Lets break this down:

33% goes to medicare,medicaid, and other manditory medical costs.

I don't use either so why in the hell should I pay for other people. Medicare is so messed up it probably won't even be there when I'm old enough to use it.

20% for defense

21% social security.

Again why should I pay into something I don't use and definately won't be there when I'm old enough to collect.

18% non-defense discretionary

8% on interest of debts

"Taxation Without Representation" - What does this mean today? What about living and working in two different communities? I think Shanahan believes Toledo's refuse fee/trash tax is taxation without representation because the citizens never got to vote on that tax.

Annie --you honestly believe that the incredible power over your private information "in a manner and form" yet to be determined by a government official; is only a statement that the official will designate the style, paper weight, margins and font of the request; and means nothing as to what information they will require be disclosed and banked?

I don't equate the health care bill to passover, I simply refuse to willingly and quietly allow our country to jump towards socialism, providing uncle Sam control over my private information,, health care decisions, and liberty; and would at least like those voting and the citizens to know what is in the bill.

How much of the bill have you read? Instead of attacking me, and making wild inflammatory analogies, lets debate the content.

HOLLAND -- BUB -- That's your problem. You think the GOVERNEMENT "provide[s] an economy and system" which allows us to prosper. WRONG. The government (as a means to enable the social contract that is our democratic republic) provides a measure of national security, is supposed to make limited laws, and ensure those laws do not infringe on citizens rights, so that THE PEOPLE can live in freedom and liberty.

It is PRIVATE CITIZENS who create an economy, use resources and develop a system that allows people to prosper.

To some small amount of greater degree STATE government supports this activity at the local level, but state and local governments are likewise LIMITED in their power.

I have been a public servant most of my life. I don't begrudge all taxes, I pay more than my "fair" share. I simply don't believe in socialize medicine, increased government power and intrusion, or that the GOVERNMENT can fix our economy. BUB.

TAHL

You can approach your elected officials to end reciprocity.

"You can approach your elected officials to end reciprocity."

What about Toledo's 26-year-old, temporary 3/4% payroll tax? Only Toledoans get to vote every few years on whether to renew it. Do residents who live outside Toledo but work in Toledo have to pay that tax? If so, how come a Temperance, Michigan resident working in Toledo does not get to vote on this tax?

But you're fine with for-profit insurance companies having all your medical information to use as they wish?

Because they have your best interests at heart, right? They would never cut you off just as your chemo got expensive, or just when your child needed that operation, or make you wait through just one more appeal while the tumor gets larger and larger.

And Santa's coming Dec. 24.

jr - Here's the Village of Holland Tax ordinance re: reciprocity. Holland rewrote it's entire tax code about five years ago with outside tax experts. It's was modeled in large part on the City of Toledo's Tax code. I can't answer your question about Michigan/Ohio reciprocity because I don't have a clue as to what Michigan does. I do remember the tax office having difficulty collecting tax from out of state construction firms that were here for a short time. While all personal/businees tax information is always completely restricted from public view, issues like this would became public knowledge when court action had to be taken to collect.

http://www.hollandohio.com/tax_pdfs/109_15.pdf

posted by lfrost2125 on Aug 28, 2009 at 07:10:27 pm     #