Joe Wilson's The Liar.

I'm so glad Toledo is in fine shape and doesn't have any important, upcoming political elections because it allows us to focus on national issues.

So for proof you provide a link to the NY Times? The same NY Times that never printed one word about the whole Van Jones fiasco while it was going on.
Here's a few links that show the opposite to be true.
Notice in the first one it's pointed out that the CRS is an arm of the Congress, the Democratic controlled Congress.

http://www.szone.us/f86/crs-says-healthcare-bill-would-cover-illegal-aliens-33269/

http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/08-26-2009/0005083496&EDATE

http://n2sooners.amplify.com/2009/09/11/crs-illegal-aliens-can-receive-benefits-under-house-health-care-bill/

http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Yes-they-can-55389592.html

http://www.healthcare-digital.com/Could-Illegal-Aliens-Receive-Benefits-Under-House-Health-Care-Bill---_31446.aspx

http://opencrs.com/document/R40773/

There's about 40,000 more links I could post but why waste time.

SO, are those like yourself who claim Wilson is the liar and 0bama is telling the truth merely misinformed by the MSM who are in 0bama's pocket? Or are YOU the liars? Personally, I hope you're only misinformed.

Politofact.com

"Joe Wilson of South Carolina said Obama lied, but he didn't"

Factcheck.org

Summary

President Obama’s prime-time address to Congress and the nation on health care prompted a Republican congressman to shout “you lie!” Did he? Here’s what we’ve found:

* Obama was correct when he said his plan wouldn’t insure illegal immigrants; the House bill expressly forbids giving subsidies to those who are in the country illegally. Conservative critics complain that the bill lacks an enforcement mechanism, but that hardly makes the president a liar.

Nice try Wire, but they only believe what they want to believe. Even if its in front of their faces.

Blind Republicans stole all our Kool Aid and drank it themselves, fo shizz.

http://opencrs.com/document/R40773/

There's the link, read it yourself, or do you only pay attention to what your messiah spoon feeds you?

I don't see the term illegal alien anywhere in that link.

18 lines in is the first line I see "unauthorized alien" used.

“unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens”

Let’s not leave that part out Billy. Seriously you guys, you look desperate.

a politician that lies? That is outrageous.
Funny how strongly some defend their political party and members, but aren't offended in the least by the constant lying by both parties.

You're right. Neither part has a lock on truth telling.

Politofact and Factcheck.org are both non-partisan fact checking organizations. They are established, reliable, and trustworthy and oft cited by both sides of the isle. They argument begins and ends there. Everything else is spin.

Politofact is run by the St Petersburg Times, and factcheck is run by the Annenberg media. Whether they are or aren't non partisan is arguable.

The Congressional Research Service is an arm of congress, the Democratic controlled Congress. If they find two loopholes that would allow aliens health care then at the very least it's a poorly written bill.

Poor Joe, I feel for him. It's a mistake anyone could make. He just saw Obama's mouth moving and assumed it was a lie just like 99% of the rest of the crap that comes out of it. Face it people you guys picked a real loser. So far he's screwed up everything he's tried to do, but it aint over yet. Brace yourselves.

Does anyone read anything beyond what media outlets spew anymore? Try going to the portions of the bill that are cited and reading them - and the sections to which they refer. They are written in plain English, albeit formal, legalistic English. Instead of buying into anyone else's interpretation, do a little personal research.

On a related note, I notice that no one is still trying to perpetuate the BS about 'death panels'. It was a crock, but since anti-Obama types wanted something to hate him for, they latched on until it was clearly shown to be an outright lie.

Obama has been President for less than 9 months and has to contend with the worst economic downturn in 80 years along with a fairly significant war overseas. He may turn out to be a fairly ineffective President, but there is no way to know that now.

It took more than a decade to place the economy in the position required to create the current collapse. The car companies put themselves in the position that led to their near-collapse. The people who want to crucify Obama this soon are as bad as those who believed that his election would lead to immediate peace and prosperity.

Looking at where things were going 9 months ago and looking at where we are today, I think ineffective may not be exactly appropriate. I know I'm not the only one who feels the "open spout" of the bleeding economy is closing. Slowly, yes, but I see things getting better from a profession that focuses and benefits on/from many industries. Things are only getting better. Lets fix this healthcare problem!

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/11/2065287.aspx

excerpt of article from above link:

Today, for the first time as far as we know, the administration is backing a provision that would require proof of citizenship before someone could enroll in a plan selected on the exchange.

Here, the administration also concedes that hospitals would be compensated with public funds for the care of undocumented immigrants.

The bullet points sent tonight by the White House:

•Undocumented immigrants would not be able to buy private insurance on the exchange. Those who are lawfully present in this country would be able to participate.
•Undocumented immigrants would be able to buy insurance in the non-exchange private market, just as they do today. That market will shrink as the exchange takes hold, but it will still exist and will be subject to reforms such as the bans on pre-existing conditions and caps.
•Verification will be required when purchasing health insurance on the exchange. One option is the SAVE program (Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements) which states currently use to make sure that undocumented immigrants don't participate in safety-net programs for which they are ineligible.
•There would be no change in the law that requires emergency rooms to treat people who need emergency care, including undocumented immigrants. There is already a federal grant program that compensates states for emergency room costs associated with treatment of undocumented immigrants, a provision sponsored by a Republican lawmaker.

Now you're mad that he WON'T be reforming healthcare enough?

These guys don't need need a reason to be mad. It just comes naturally.

by the way, though the obama plan wouldn't cover illegals, since it was brought up...who do you think covers uninsured illegals right now when they receive healthcare? A little hint: the government pays for it.

BOOO! HEALTHCARE REFORM! BOOOO!

If "the administration is backing a provision that would require proof of citizenship before someone could enroll in a plan selected on the exchange."

and

"the administration also concedes that hospitals would be compensated with public funds for the care of undocumented immigrants."

today.....then that would mean that GASP! your messiah WAS lying the other night. Damn what a surprise, lefties wrong again.

Reimbursing a hospital for treating someone involved in a car crash is way different from providing someone with health insurance to go a doctor and a pharmacy.

Today, the illegal crash victim is treated and the hospital 'eats' the expense and pass the loss on to you and I anyway. Under Obama's plan, illegals don't cost the system any more than it does today.

BTW - what is you're solution? Should hospitals require proof of citizenship before any treatment?

Hospitals have been required to treat people regardless of ability to pay or citizenship for some time. Until 2003 they ate the cost.

Hospitals have been reimbursed for treatment of non citizens since 2003. Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement and Modernization Act of 2003, which contained Sec. 1011 authorizing $250,000 annually between 2003 and 2008 for government reimbursements to hospitals who provide treatment for uninsured illegal immigrants. The program has been extended through 2009 and there is currently a bipartisan bill in Congress to make it permanent.

So the latter part is fairly meaningless, but what about them wanting to add proof of citizenship to enroll in a plan on the exchange?
If they want to ADD it, it means it's not in the bill as written. Of course most of congress probably hasn't read it so they wouldn't know.

To answer your question directly, no. But as you said, emergency treatment is a far cry from providing health insurance.

BTW did you know that 70% of the women who gave birth at Parkland Memorial hospital in Dallas in the first 3 months of2006 were illegal immigrants?

We could cut health care costs if congress would do something about illegal immigration.

Or just make those damned women have their babies at home! How DARE they expect a nice, cushy hospital bed in which to push out their brats!

Here's a solution: Maybe, if they really expect to have their babies in American hospitals -- thereby making those babies legal American citizens with birth certificates and everything -- they shouldn't be allowed to take 'em home. There are plenty of couples -- good, solid, God-fearing American couples -- who want to adopt. Why should we let these illegal aliens keep their American babies? They probably won't even raise them as Americans, but teach 'em to speak Mexican! And that is NO WAY to raise an American citizen.

"speak Mexican?"

JeepMaker - How many times do you have to hear it! What the plan says and what Obama said is this - NO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT WOULD RECIEVE FEDERAL SUBSIDIE MONEY TO HELP THEM BUY INTO A HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN. Here is the bill language.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/healthcare/la-na-health-immigrants12-2009sep12,0,3465175.story

"Nothing in this subtitle shall allow federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States,"

Can that be any plainer?

And really JeepMaker. Have you thought the consequences through? An illegal immigrant gets sick, injured, whatever. They go to a hospital. They won't be turned away just like nobody else is turned away. They are treated. They don't have any insurance. So who pays? You do. Just like you're paying for American citizens who don't have health insurance through higher costs for you own health care premiums or your employer is footing the bills. Do you propose that any one who arrives at an emergency room be untreated and possibly turned away until they can show proof of citizenship? What the fuck is your solution?

The solution is simple.

BOOOO. SOCIALIST. GO BACK TO RUSSIA.

Huh? I thought he was born in Kenya.

Holland, can this be any plainer. THE BILL HAS NO PROVISION FOR PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP AS IT IS NOW WRITTEN.

Hence, easy for an illegal to access to the hp exchange. That's why they whitehouse now wants to insert language to require proof of citizenship.

Here's another question; much of the provisions in the bill won't take effect until 2013, after the next presidential election.
What's the big rush?

"THE BILL HAS NO PROVISION FOR PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP AS IT IS NOW WRITTEN."

The bill DOES NOT cover illegals. The Whitehouse is adding extra caulk around the windows to quiet a noisy minority dead-set on derailing this reform. However since taxpayers foot the bill for uninsured illegals already, your point is kind of moot. Am I supposed to believe this is the reason you are not on board with this reform of the 38th ranked Healthcare system in the world (We're sandwiched between Costa Rica and Slovenia). Clearly, we've haven't been doing something right.

And the big rush. Well, fellas like you want this reform to die a long slow death. We both know that.

You go right on keeping your head in the sand. I can do nothing to stop that, that's how your messiah got elected in the first place.

Would you stop with the messiah talk already? Do you really think anybody worships Obama? I mean seriously? We get it, you’re mad McCain didn’t win. Get over it, you have a long way to go and it’s bad for your health to be so bitter.

And why do you call people reading black and white and interpreting for what it is as having their head in the sand? You are the one refusing to read the thing and understand PLAIN ENGLISH! Again, you seriously think Obama has some big plan to secretly sneak coverage for illegal immigrants in there? What’s next? Are you going to lie on the floor kicking your legs and screaming like a 4 year old?

You know after 8 years of Bush/Cheney, Mitt Romney looked a lot like the messiah.

Maureen Dowd, in her Sunday column in the NYT made a point which I feel might apply here. She said that when Joe Wilson, yelled "You Lie", the unfinshed part of the utterance was 'Boy'. As in "You Lie Boy". Having traveled extensively down south I can personally attest that many southerners have never gotton over the Civil War - both the loss and the end to segregation. In addition, as Miss Dowd writes, they have a deep seated fear of a Federal take over. Add here my own understanding of the very conservative religious views most of the Bible belt holds and you have the "perfect storm" of conditions that provoke hatred of Obama and of the current administration. Some people are so blinded by these prejudices and emotions that they are not capable of objective, logical, rational thought about any policy proposal by a liberal, black Democrat. That's why you can't get a fact based answer from these folks. They can't articulate a fact based answer. They're not operating from facts, but from powerful biased emotions. Facts only upset them more, as facts can undermine their core beliefs.

i love how people who disagree with Obamma are called all sorts of negatives things, In Toledo, Ohio the last 8 years people have witten all sorts of stuff blaming Bush for everything, surprised no hinted he wasnt involved in the JFK assasination.
Onto health care, part of the reason people leary about the statements, "you can keep your Dr." provisions in current bills will actually make it cheaper for employers to get rid of sponsoring health care coverage for their employees, thus forcing people in a gov't program, that is scary! The gov't has done great with Amtrack, USPS, etc.
The other comment is how our health care ranks to other nations. I would point out that we (Americans) also enjoy the highest standard of living as well. Free health care/Gov't health care whatever you want to call it is a joke. I would agree there is a number of people who cannot afford it but a vast number are too lazy or unwilling to pay for it. Hard for me to be sympathetic to someone who doesnt have insurance but has cell phones. flat screen tv's, the internet, etc.
I have never understood why it the employers responsibility to provide health care anyways. If i go buy a car at Jim Yark in toledo, ohio they dont tell me I have all-state insurance, it's my responsibility to go find the insurance I want and can afford. The gov't cannot do it all, unfortunately we are becoming a nation of mediocre and average people

Irish - private insurance for my family would cost more than my house, cell, car insurance and cable bill per month combined... Assuming I could even get anyone willing to cover us.

For the last several years in a row health insurance in Ohio has gone up by 25% on average. I know my pay check hasn't gone up by that much. Our current system is unsustainable.

There you go again. - not dealing with facts but with what you want to believe.

Fact: Currently the US ranks about 15th, generally, in a Standard of Living Comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_the_United_States

Fact: The US spends more per capita than any other country on health care but we rank 22nd on life expectancy.

http://lost-contact.mit.edu/afs/sipb/contrib/wikileaks-crs/wikileaks-crs-reports/RL34175.pdf

Fact: The percentage of employers who offered health care benefits has dropped and is expected to continue to drop.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/insurance/2007-11-12-social-net_N.htm

Quoted:•"The percentage of all employers offering health insurance in the past eight years peaked in 2000 at 69% and has fallen steadily since, hitting 60% this year, according to an annual survey of employers by the non-partisan Kaiser Family Foundation. Among small firms of three to nine workers, the percentage offering insurance has dropped even more — from 58% in 2001 to 45% this year"

Fact: Health care insurance in the private market is not available for anyone with a pre-existing condition. I challenge to you find a private health insurance policy from any company for anyone with high blood pressure or diabetes or who takes medication for depression. For that matter, any pre-existing health condition. I challenge you to find an affordable policy for anyone that excludes the pre-existing condition but covers other basic medical care. Those policies are non-existant. How do I know? I'm closing a businees the day after tomorrow that covers it's employees with health care benefits. Because we are closing (selling) and we cover less than 20 employees, my soon to be former covered employees can't COBRA and they can't continue the current coverage even if they pay the premiums themselves. Worse, the new owner does not offer health care benefits. I'm putting several people in a very difficult position. I've tried to find them health care coverage. THERE IS NONE!!! NONE!!! I cry over this.

I wish you knew what you were talking about, but you don't have a clue. You're a patsy for the health insurance companies. Your uninformed support of the status quoe helps to cause unimaginable hardship for others.

Why, why can't you just look at the true facts and think things through?

Now let's take a look at the worst case scenario. We do this healthcare overhaul and it generates a number of problems that we find unacceptable. Even this can be a good thing because at least then, we are in a process of addressing the colossal failure our healthcare industry already is, verses neglecting it.

Doctors offices have nearly as much staff dedicated to dealing with insurance companies as they have addressing patients. Drug and healthcare costs are astronomical, not because they need to be but because the incentive structure our current system generates. Healthcare has been the fast growing failing business in America for generations.

I had a hernia surgery earlier this year. The surgeon cost $1200, materials about $100, the Op.Room for only 45 minutes cost $15,000.

My grandfathers month in the hospital before he passed cost well in excess of $2,000,000. That is more money than he made in his lifetime. This system is not sustainable.

If we change it now and find problems, at least we are in the process of addressing them, rather than ignoring the total mess this system already is. We need to address the longterm stability of our healthcare system, not the short term profitability like the wall street investors controlling these private health providers want. We saw what this incentive scheme looked like when it collapsed the financial sector. Do we really need to see what wall street can do to the healthcare industry?

well lets just get free health care for all

as for the illegals, they should be given free health coverage at the hospital, police should be notified immediately, arrested and deported

sensorG

well u mention a house, maybe cheaper house or apt would be better, same for the car u mentioned. You also mentioned cable, that is not necessary. I realize i am being lil over the top but my point is that the cosr of insurance may be to high but if it was truly the most important thing to you, there should be ways to find to pay for it---not only is the current system unsustainable, all the things we are doing as a country are unsustainable. We cannot subsidize everything with the gov't

In the private market:

You can't buy it AT ANY COST if you have a prexisting condition. Health insurance companies don't write any individual coverage if they deem you already sick.

If you get health care insurance when you are healthy, then get sick, as soon as your policy anniversery date rolls around they don't let you renew it.

Why can't the US government subsidize it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

Fact: Quoted: Universal health care is implemented in all industrialized countries, with the exception of the United States.¹ It is also provided in many developing countries.

Please just don't spout off with what you think, try to get the facts. You hurt people.

"as for the illegals, they should be given free health coverage at the hospital, police should be notified immediately, arrested and deported"

How would they determine if they were "illegals"? I don't carry my passport on me.

Eventually the government will take care of you cradle to grave, that is what the liberals are after. Ask yourself why, well because then they own you and your vote. Just look at who they are and how THEY live their lives, not the little folks in the trenches but the bosses and their leaders. They are making for themselves a nice life, the future american ruling class.

Uh, like the captains of industry that are the CEO's of the health insurance industry who make over $5,000 an hr. in a 40 hr work week? Those guys certainly are making themselves a nice life. If you support the status quoe you're helping them preserve their "nice life". Nice life indeed! You should be proud!

well for starters there should be a universal idenity card and illegals shouldnt be allowed to get a drivers license
this country is going to hell with all the gov't involement, we are becoming mediocre and just plain average, thanks mr obamma

yes bill says no health care for illegals but there is no enforcement, why? democrats in committee in house voted against this

Illegal aliens never got driver licences before Obama became president? And a National ID card so people can 'show me your papers' when requested by a government or public official is your response to big government?

Paying for illegals is a straw man at best and represents small fraction of health car dollars.

OK you win, I concede all your points. Give me a public plan and I promise it won't cover illegals, abortions or have death death panels. Happy?

Yup, In 8 months Obama ruined the country. Never mind the 8 years of the Bush administration which precipated a near total world wide financial collpase, and that took a budget surplus of $800 billion and turned it into a deficit of almost $1 trillion. All the while the Republican administraion sat on their hands about the health care crisis. The Republicans have fought the REAL ID National ID card inititive tooth and nail to the point it's nearly dead. The Republican leaning Chamber of Commerce has consistently fought the Federal E-Verify system the has employers check the legal status of propestive new hires before they employ them. The system is easy to use and free. Now why would a Republican business group not want the citizenship status of a woker verified? Any ideas?

Holland what do you think the professional politicians are doing for themselves.

Oh - I don't know. Maybe getting political contributions from the poultry processing industry and a major employer in your district while one of their members gets busted busted for hiring illegal immigrants?

http://www2.wjbf.com/jbf/news/state_regional/south_carolina/article/300_suspected_illegal_immigrants_caught_in_sc_chicken_plant_raid/7396/
http://www.scpoultry.org/legislative/

Or getting help with funding and campaigning from a supposed tax exempt entity? (acorn) in case you didn't know tax exempt are not allowed.

I've formed two 501 3C organizations in my time. I'm well aware of the restrictions. It has always amazed me how some chuches can politic from the pulpit and get away with it.

i do not say the drivers licenses issue was something Obamma started, this is a real problem that both party's need to solve.

the 47 million total of uninsured is a grossly inflated number, most estimates have the actual number between 10-20 million, seems totalling wrecking/overhauling a system most people are happy with doesnt make sense. i think all would agree something needs to be done with rising cost/pre existing conditions and people able to get affordable insurance.

i do not have faith in govt to correct these issues, both sides have major flaws, democrats whine/complain about Bush and blame him for everything under the sun, republicans say no to everything...ALL of these people just want power and have lost touch with average Americans, both party's are a disappointment

I served 2 tours in Iraq since 2003, just very sad to see the condition of this country anymore. I am losing faith in both party's. Both do not represent the will of the people, only the will of power, money and the ability to get re-elected

Do you have ANY credible evidence - a study or report by any unbiased institution, to back uo your assertion about the number of uninsured?

Holland! Do you?

Regardless of numbers everyone agrees that the largest groups of uninsured are the 18-25 age bracket (most of which are students or low income earners) and those with preexisting conditions. That's who we should focus on insuring.

If students and preexisting conditions were covered then whatever the number is would greatly be reduced.

Yes deere1, I most definitely do, the second link being the most authoritative.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=628

http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
Quoted from the above link:

"Several studies estimate the number of uninsured Americans. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, their latest data available.1"

without my reading it, does it list the people that could afford insurance, but voluntarily choose to roll the dice with no insurance?

I can name four of those right off the top of my head...

Insurance for illegals is a straw issue anyway, as soon as they get amnesty.

I went to the Census bureau data directly and I can't find any mention of any data sampling that would differentiate voluntary lack of health care coverage vs involuntary lack of health care coverage.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/p60_236sa.pdf

I'll go out on a limb here and say that if such data had been collected it would be reported somewhere. There is available somewhere the sampling questions used but It's buried a little deeper than I have time to dig out. Interesting question. There would be a grey area hard to quantify. Would you have health insurance if it was affordable? What's "affordable" mean, really? If your a miminum wage employee or middle management you'll get a different answer.

What I looked at was this:

"In 2007, 17.6 million of the uninsured had annual incomes of more than $50,000 and 9.1 million earned more than $75,000." That's rather telling. What we don't know is if they were recently unemployed and without insurance at that moment, or if they simply chose not to have coverage, or if permanently laid off with no immediate hope of coverage. Stastics are slippery. Lots of folks in middle management lost their jobs in 2007.

Just need to annex Mexico, we have half their citizens here now or soon will. Then their taxes can help pay for their citizens healthcare. Can send on troops to just kill the drug cartells and hey be a nice place to visit in the winter like florida without a passport.

So, what about that "Statue of Liberty" thing which is inscribed with:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Should we add to the inscription a new line?

"Just Kidding!"

Now Holland, we both know that only applies to our Irish/German/Polish/Hungarian/etc ancestors, not our Mexican neighbors, heheh.

there was a comment above about the PHONY "death panel" thing....I would say that there may not be an actual panel BUT if there turns out to be a gov't option which will turn into something huge because employers will just stop electing to provide coverage (pay the fine/penalties which would be cheaper for them than providing insurance) then I would argue the GOVT system as a whole/itself is the death panel.

like i previosly stated in previous post, I served 2 tours in Iraq, i utilize the VA which is a joke/goodluck trying to see a dr in a timely manner there

another above post mentioned Obamma and "only being in office 9 months and the bad bad bad problems" her stepped into....i would agree with some of that but the way he came across b4 the election was that he could just wave his hand and all this stuff would just go away instantly.
this guy is scary, whether its this health care stuff, the Energy Bill (great idea for business/job creation of cap/tax, we have card check around the corner (talkin about jobs going overseas haha) when will people wake up and see what is going on?

When in Iraq and Kuwait people would ask us why we were there fighting for their freedoms/liberty's when we get home we may not recognize our own country.....

My accountant raves about the care he receives from the VA. He goes to Ann Arbor.

The insurance companies are the true death panels. I've posted about this before but it bears repeating here. My neighbor had Medicare A and Part B Paramount insurance. She had a reoccurence of breast cancer. The chemotherapy treatments were $7,000 - EACH. Her combined insurance coverage for each treatment was $300. To put it bluntly she opted to not receive treatment because she didn't want to bankrupt her family and she died.

Small business are dropping health care coverage for their employees at an increasing rate every day because the of the growing cost burden. Did you understand when I explained that you can't find affordable private insurance coverage and some people cant buy any coverage no matter what they can sfford? You must not have, because that's a death panel that has nothing to do with the government. Wouldnt it be better IF there was a public plan that was guaranteed affordable coverage?

You've got a lot of nerve griping about folks who want a public option health care coverage for all when you're comfortably covered by a GOVERNMENT RUN health care plane.

While I am grateful for your service in Iraq to our country you are an ignorant hypocrit.

i do not use my VA benefits because it takes so long to get into see a DR there, if your friend is going to Ann Arbor then he/she is going to the VA Hospital not a VA Clinic....big difference

I pay for insurance thru my employer like most people, why? Because the VA is a joke. Insurance is the most important thing I can have and I treat it as such.

My aunt's surgeon wanted an MRI before operating to remove her breast cancer. The insurance company called it experimental and wouldn't cover it. I guess they just knew how to better care for her than her doctor did.

If you accountant is using the VA I wonder how good of an accountant he is. The VA is poorly run. Is the care good? Yeah if there is a bed available. I am in the military and I will only do a full career so I qualify for Tricare-for-life and NOT the VA.

That's the other problem with mentioning the VA. Most think that Bethesda and Walter Reed are operated under the VA. They are not. Military medicine and the VA are distinctly different.

If you want to see how the VA works drive up to Ann Arbor. Stand in the lobby. Ask around as to who is paid and who is a fellow Veteran who's volunteering their time. Talk to the patients. The last one I talked to said the people there were nice but he was waiting on a surgury to save his feet from amputation but the FUNDING WASN'T THERE!

My accountant has had several procedues done at what called Ann Arbor VA. He was very satisfied with his care. He is 70+ in age. I don't know any more details than that.

The media is having a field day with Joe Wilson's impulsive outburst. He apologized, that should have been the end of it. Now he's getting sucked into a whirlpool that the media has generated. The media is full of controversies about controversies.

Well Holland. I'm glad to hear your accountant loves the VA so much. Most Veterans experience a level of frustration I do not want to. The consensus I found there was that the patients thought the doc's and nurses where nice and tried to help but the place was broke.

I would hope that if I were a practicing accountant I would be able to pay for my own health care.

As far as the VA my mother's neighbor is in his 80's. He's a veteran. He has been in and out of the hospital. Currently he is at a senior's home. The reason is because the VA doesn't have enough beds.

Uh, MikeA, My accountant is a veteran too, obviously. I think any veteran is entitled to use the care promised them for their military service. It's extremely distrubing that it isn't sufficiently funded.

Yeah, citing political issues from either left or right leaning sources is almost self serving these days. But interestingly I noted that The Toledo Blurt plays heavily toward the left too. I have been reading for some time now The Toledo Blurt and the Cleveland Plain Dealer, on a daily basis, and am shocked at the differences in choices of national headlines and coverage of national political matters. It became pretty clear that The Toledo Blurt puts their underwear on with the left foot first. And doesn't put the right foot in their shorts at all. You might say that means the Cleveland paper is just the opposite in leaning to the right? I decided I couldn't come to that conclusion when The Toledo Blurt totally ignores coverage of many right leaning matters. Cleveland at least publishes both sides. And sports? I won't even go there.

I am in the military and I will only do a full career so I qualify for Tricare-for-life and NOT the VA.

Mikey, you probably won't believe it from me, so go ask your CO, but there it is: TRICARE IS GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE. You are against government health care for others? When you have it yourself?

And Irish, get over yourself. Obama never said he could just wave his hand and make all the disastrous failures of the previous eight years go away. The man has stated time and again that fixing the many problems he is faced with won't be easy, and it won't be quick.