/p/
Toledo Talk forums search sign-up login

Deer Hunting in Ottawa Hills

I caught the story on channel 11 tonight about the meeting and vote for hunting deer in Ottawa Hills. They showed several people for and against the cause.

One gentleman said something along the lines of the following. "If a deer was to jump over you and then kick you with a back leg, it could cause serious harm or injury."

Now, I grew up next to woods and I've seen my share of deer upclose, but I have never seen or even heard of a deer jumping completely over a person and then kicking them in the head. I just found that story/warning to be so freaking funny.

I imagine that deer, like any animal of that size, can get pretty dangerous if put in the wrong situation, but jumping over people and kicking them in the head? Why haven't we been warned of such danger before?

created by hockeyfan on Nov 24, 2009 at 01:11:47 am     Comments: 45

source      versions

Comments ... #

Try running around the woods during rutting season.

posted by Linecrosser on Nov 24, 2009 at 01:17:37 am     #  

??? That's like saying to try climbing a volcano during eruptions.
Who is doing this running through the woods and encountering these psycho deer? I'm a frequent visitor to the metroparks and have come very, very close to deer. I've been almost next to both buck and doe and have never experienced this type of behavior.

posted by hockeyfan on Nov 24, 2009 at 01:59:29 am     #  

Right now, I doubt a deer would jump over a person, but it would probably steamroll the person. Deer during the rutting season will run through yards and down streets within the city limits of small towns. When a buck is chasing a doe, things like obstacles and location don't matter much. It's really surprising where deer turn up now.

To solve the deer problem in Ottawa Hills, they should pretend the deer are Toledoans and get the OHPD involved.

posted by jr on Nov 24, 2009 at 02:22:10 am     #  

Also, it is statistically true that one has a greater chance of being severely wounded by police in Ottawa Hills than deer.

posted by Offshore on Nov 24, 2009 at 08:37:36 am     #  

Oh Hockeyfan - I've seen this!!!!

A couple of years ago, we had a deer on our street here in Point Place.

It seemed disoriented, being in the Point (imagine that), but we figured it had come across the bay from Grassy Island.

As it went down the street it gathered speed until it was running and then, yes, it jumped over a woman working in her garden. She had her back to the deer and didn't see it coming.

Now, the deer didn't hit her in the head as he jumped, but I can imagine that if she'd been more startled and moved, it could have happened...

I think there needs to be a law against deer doing these kinds of things. Government must protect us from this possibility, even if it's only happened once! (LOL)

posted by MaggieThurber on Nov 24, 2009 at 09:37:38 am     #  

I have a few questions:

First, why does it costs $30,000 to cull them? I could pick one off every night, with old painless, for free. I'll need someone to haul Bambi away. There is a big group just asking for it that walk through my OH yard.

Second, what happened to disrupt the 1998 cull in Perrysburg?

posted by bobo on Nov 24, 2009 at 11:50:26 am     #  

"what happened to disrupt the 1998 cull in Perrysburg?"

I don’t remember the exact details but it seems to me there was a lottery for hunters who were restricted to "shooting lanes" and therefore not many deer were culled. It was a fiasco.

posted by Offshore on Nov 24, 2009 at 12:24:34 pm     #  

Great stories, but still no account of anyone being injured by a deer.
Oh yeah, I forgot those "running" into cars. Good thing we didn't shoot kids to reduce their numbers after they got hit by cars.
I'm against the killing only because the reasons to me seem far fetched. Sure, a deer could charge you and kill you. Sure, it could kick you in the head. Sure, it could run through or into your house. But how do you know or make sure that the deer you kill is the one that would do that?
If you don't want deer, raccoons, or other animals coming in your yard then move into the city.
I would hate to see it, but if someone gets shot during these "hunting days", I hope it's worth it.

posted by hockeyfan on Nov 24, 2009 at 02:34:07 pm     #  

The entire Ottawa Hills Village Council meeting has been posted at http://www.knowledgestream.org/kstream/index.asp?item_id=4570

Running time 2:20 - Includes all citizen addresses to village council regarding deer culling.

posted by wgtepublic on Nov 24, 2009 at 05:15:41 pm     #  

Another great story, but it still doesn't support these "horror" stories told at the meeting. Kicking heads, charging, even killing.
I still disagree with killing them, but I can't afford to live in Ottawa Hills and don't drive a expensive car so maybe I can't understand it.
Rich people are funny. They build huge expensive houses right in the woods or along the woods, then want to destroy everything about the woods that they built in.

posted by hockeyfan on Nov 24, 2009 at 07:23:18 pm     #  

bitch much lately?

posted by wishiniwasfishin on Nov 24, 2009 at 10:24:06 pm     #  

not about nature

posted by hockeyfan on Nov 24, 2009 at 11:20:19 pm     #  

You're right, Hockeyfan. People who build near these beautiful wooded areas are the first who complain when they see deer or other wildlife on their properties. We need to learn to live with wildlife because we are going to increasingly have encounters with them as we encroach on their habitat. Killing them isn't the answer.

posted by renegade on Nov 25, 2009 at 10:30:45 pm     #  

Then what is the answer? Mountain lion attacks are reported more frequently in the Northwest, alligator attacks in the South. Another thing this crowd does is they try to stop hunting in these areas, too. Until one of them gets killed, or has a kid eaten. People seem to believe they have some sort of God given right to push animals out of their habitat, because they like the view, or whatever. Deer have no natural predators in the area to keep their numbers down. People can hunt them, for a very short time each year, and cougars, wolves, etc. have been driven out of the area. The rich can't have it both ways!

posted by Wulf on Nov 26, 2009 at 12:59:23 am     #  

The rest of us in Toledo live with the fact that anyone of us might be shot or brutalized any time WE go outside, so maybe it's just the RICH peoples turn!

posted by Wulf on Nov 26, 2009 at 01:04:25 am     #  

"People who build near these beautiful wooded areas are the first who complain when they see deer or other wildlife on their properties."

No, just an over abundance of them or when property is destroyed by them.

posted by Offshore on Nov 26, 2009 at 09:05:45 am     #  

Let's just move all the deer haters to Downtown Toledo.They should not have to worry about being irritated by the deer in the downtown area.They will have to be on the lookout for panhandlers or muggers instead.For me,I will take having to put up with deer anyday.

posted by buckeye278 on Nov 26, 2009 at 09:39:17 am     #  

New developments in OH case:
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091127/NEWS16/911270319
The case in Ottawa Hills is not unusual. In cases like this deer are viewed as potentially dangerous to drivers, pane glass windows, shrubs, landscaping, and ornamentals, citizenry who gets to close too rutting bucks, citizenry who gets too close to deer pellets, and Lyme disease because of deer-ticks.

In Ottawa Hills the chances of hitting one at 25 MPH is minimal but, since deer can’t read village limit signs or practice contraception, a greater danger may exist on Central, Secor, or Bancroft. But, while car-deer encounters can be deadly to drivers and the newly bloodied deer in the passenger seat, a main reason used for a cull/kill (whatever) is the damage to property caused by browsing.

A beautiful whitetail deer can be the most graceful animal this side of the Serengeti but they do more than idyllically frolic among the blue birds and butterflies at the birdbath.

They also love to @#ck

The Blades’s Steve Pollick wrote:
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091122/COLUMNIST22/911229968

"So even if you accept 104 deer in the village right now, by next fall, if nothing is done, there will be 145 to 156 deer. In the fall of 2011 there will be 203 to 234. By fall of 2012, 284 to 351. That’s a lot of landscaping browsed."

It is messy and emotional business. If the cull/kill happens, the scene, I suspect will be that while protesters hold candlelight vigils and create decoy corn piles, sharpshooters with silencers, small caliber rifles with laser sights will bait with corn piles and take well placed downward (using the ground as a backstop) headshots (for instant kill) at dominant deer (to confuse the rest of them). But, given the above reproduction rates this scene will have to be repeated for long lasting success and that's a consideration OH residents must also face.

posted by Offshore on Nov 27, 2009 at 12:15:17 pm     #  

It is possible to plant deer resistant landscapes and you can have a good selection of plants if you're willing to install deer fencing. Most back yards can accmmodate the necessary fencing if zoning allows. Front landscapes are stil left vulnerable. Hunger is another deer herd reduction strategy. Starvation culls. Fencing and limited landscaping coupled with starvation vs a bullet to the head. Nothing easy or nice about any of the solutions.

posted by holland on Nov 27, 2009 at 04:09:41 pm     #  

[Vinny is trying to dress properly for a hunting trip]
Vinny: What about these pants I got on? You think they're okay? Ho!
Mona Lisa: Imagine you're a deer. You're prancing along. You get thirsty. You spot a little brook. You put your little deer lips down to the cool clear water...bam! A fucking bullet rips off part of your head! Your brains are laying on the ground in little bloody pieces! Now, I ask ya, would you give a fuck what kind of pants the son-of-a-bitch who shot you was wearing?!

posted by Ryan on Nov 27, 2009 at 05:06:51 pm     #  

"Starvation culls."

Seems like a waste of good meat though. Plus, starving the deer doesn't sound humane.

posted by jr on Nov 27, 2009 at 05:27:32 pm     #  

From what I understand, non-lethal alternatives are very cost prohibitive and of questionable effectiveness.

One method, “wildlife underpasses” are already in place in OH. Other methods range from the afore mentioned fences, predator scent boxes to high tech ultrasonic or infrared devices to the wildly expensive birth control.

White Buffalo Inc.offers this. From the White Buffalo website:
"Applied contraception research
We are actively involved in assessing the feasibility of population control using anti-fertility agents. We will activily integrate contraceptive technologies when they become available for management (i.e. EPA registered)."

"Fertility Control
Perceived to be the ideal solution, fertility control agents are currently not available for managing overabundant deer populations. All field studies are strictly regulated by the Environmental Protection Agency and further research is required to assess the feasibility and practicality of using contraceptives. Fertility control agents exist that can prevent reproduction in individual deer. However, the need for repeated administration and limited delivery technologies significantly restrict the population size that can be experimentally manipulated. Data collected to date (cost of manpower and materials (~$600 - $1,000/per doe treated), adequate number of does accessed) suggests that use of contraceptives will be limited to small insular herds."

While many OH residents make this amount daily before their first coffee break, their willingness to save a few bucks may overwhelm their desire to save a few bucks. Also the emerging technology of deer-doctoring still sounds sketchy

In terms of chemical repellants, I’ve heard of bear dung and wolf pee being somewhat effective but there hasn’t been a lot of that around since the time of the, well, Ottawa.

posted by Offshore on Nov 28, 2009 at 09:46:15 am     #  

First they came for the deer, and I did not speak out — because I was not a deer;
Then they came for the raccoons, and I did not speak out — because I was not a raccoon;
Then they came for the field mice, and I did not speak out — because I was not a field mouse;
Then they came for the crickets, and I did not speak out — because I was not a cricket;
Then they came for me — but it was so damned quiet I heard them creeping up in the backyard and I blasted them with my .30-06 Springfield.

(apologies to Pastor Martin Niemöller)

posted by historymike on Nov 28, 2009 at 11:05:19 am     #  

The numbers I heard for culling are about $600 per deer which sound the same as Fertility Control.

One other thing I wonder about is the actual number of deer. From that I've heard the OH numbers are based on one sampling done in Jan. 2009. That doesn't seem like enough sampling to start culling.

posted by bobo on Nov 28, 2009 at 12:40:12 pm     #  

Bobo, according to the White Buffalo Inc. website the sharpshooting costs range from $150 to $400 per deer.

About their Co-founder

Dr. Anthony J. DeNicola

Co-founder and President, received his Ph.D. from Purdue University in wildlife ecology. His dissertation was entitled "Control of reproduction in overabundant white-tailed deer populations". In addition to being certified as a wildlife biologist by the Wildlife Society, he holds research affiliate positions with Rutgers University, University of Illinois, Trinity College of Hartford, and the Denver Zoological Society. Dr. DeNicola has 30+ publications in reputable scientific journals and has presented at numerous professional conferences.

Numbers: According to the Blade's Pollick "So even if you accept 104 deer in the village right now, by next fall, if nothing is done, there will be 145 to 156 deer. In the fall of 2011 there will be 203 to 234. By fall of 2012, 284 to 351"

I guess we should be more concerned elsewhere.
According to the Insurance Information Institute deers kill 150-200 people per year in the US and estimates that 1.5 million deer-vehicle collisions each year occur costing $1.1 billion annually.

One article I read (no sources listed) claimed that deer kill ten times more people each year than sharks, cougars, bears, and alligator combined and more people than all commercial airline, train, and bus accidents combined calling deer Nature’s deadliest animal.

posted by Offshore on Nov 28, 2009 at 02:02:55 pm     #  

I think White Buffalo Inc. don't include fees for licensing and butchering/processing the kills.

posted by bobo on Nov 28, 2009 at 02:24:04 pm     #  

Human urine works as a deterrent. I used to live outside of Redmond, WA (a suburb of Seattle) and had LOTS of deer. Out there, deer are the least of their problems -- they're more concerned with bears, cougars, and coyotes. Anyways, my friend made her husband pee in a can out in the garage everytime he went to the bathroom. She'd then use the urine on her landscape. It actually worked pretty well. I thought this was so funny although I thought that she should also contribute to urine supply.
They ended up spending the big bucks and installed a 'deer fence'.

posted by surfer341 on Nov 29, 2009 at 09:23:30 am     #  

HistoryMike: Good one!

I think the locals in Perrysburg tried a deer hunt, complete with fire lanes, tree stands and bait stations and as I remember it one deer was killed that day - it got hit by a car.

I don't think there's much chance of a deer hunt in Ottawa Hills. For one thing, the vast majority of the populace are professional gun control supporters - no amateurs out that way.

posted by madjack on Nov 29, 2009 at 02:19:46 pm     #  

Maybe it will take someone colliding with a deer and being seriously hurt in order for them to do something. I almost creamed a doe this morning who decided to run out in front of my car while I was traveling north on Richards Road (near O.H.) at about 40 miles an hour with my young son in the back.

posted by Ace_Face on Dec 01, 2009 at 12:13:22 pm     #  

I was driving on Central Ave this summer by Wild Wood and there was a deer in the middle of the road and two police cars trying to move the deer off the side of the road and it took about 5 minutes. But really when you think about it, you cant blame the deer, they get so use to cars and people and protection that the have no fear...I have a few ideas of what they could do (not that anyone really cares but i will share anyway lol)

First: Why not trap the deer and then send them either to Up State Michigan or another part of Ohio? There is no reason to kill just kill them

Second: why not issue hunting permits to the citizen of Ottawa Hills exclusively and charge a huge premium for the permits ($750-$1000), that way you can find out how bad the village of OH really wants the deer removed. When they have to kill the deer and buy the permits with their own personal money.

Lastly: DEAL WITH IT!!!! who gives a damn...watch your kids play outside and don't do anything stupid and this should not even be an issue.

thats all i have for now...

posted by made_in_toledo on Dec 02, 2009 at 11:24:21 am     #  

"why not issue hunting permits to the citizen of Ottawa Hills...and buy the permits with their own personal money"

I missed the meeting but it seems the village would be exposed to unnecessary (significant) liability if they were to issue permit to residents.

Also, aren't we paying with personal money, in via property taxes taxes, for this circus?

posted by bobo on Dec 02, 2009 at 11:53:16 am     #  

"First: Why not trap the deer and then send them either to Up State Michigan or another part of Ohio? There is no reason to kill just kill them"

Transplantation leads to over populations in the new area. Besides, if I didn’t want to kill deer the UP is the last place I’d send them!

posted by Offshore on Dec 02, 2009 at 12:43:48 pm     #  

How would the village be liable for issuing permits? It would be the same as a normal hunting license but this one would allow you to hunt within village limits. I don't know everything about laws so this is only me assuming but wont the village be more liable to contract it out? If you got injured by someone the village hired out couldn't you then sue the Village but if it were individual residents shooting then if god forbid some accident did happen it wouldn't be against the Village of OH but only between the individuals.

Yes, O.H. is paying for it with there taxes but why subject everyone to paying for it. And selling permits would actually generate money for the village and people interested in protecting the deer can buy permits and not use them, while people that dont want the deer can buy permits and shoot deer. And lastly people that don't care don't have watch (in my opinion) wasteful spending.

posted by made_in_toledo on Dec 02, 2009 at 01:09:46 pm     #  

"Transplantation leads to over populations in the new area. Besides, if I didn’t want to kill deer the UP is the last place I’d send them!"

My comment wasn't about killing or protecting the deer it was just an option to consider...I was just saying that it MAY be more cost effective to have the DNR trap and remove the deer then to spend 10s of thousands of dollars to contract out population control of the deer.

posted by made_in_toledo on Dec 02, 2009 at 01:17:18 pm     #  

Then it becomes more than an OH problem since the DNR is a state angency paid by tax payers not just OH.
And, what do you do with the deer, make them someone elses problem too?

posted by Offshore on Dec 02, 2009 at 01:23:32 pm     #  

"Why not trap the deer and then send them either to Up State Michigan or another part of Ohio?"

Because other parts of Ohio have even more deer. Maybe someone in eastern Ohio is saying send the deer to northwest Ohio.

2003 ODNR release :

Deer densities vary widely across Ohio. East-central and southeastern Ohio densities are between 25 to 35 deer per square mile. Densities are much lower in agricultural areas of central and western Ohio, about 5 to 10 deer per square mile.


I'm assuming Ottawa Hills residents won't mind paying more taxes for someone to live trap deer and transport them hundreds of miles away, assuming they can find some place to take the deer.


2007 Our Ohio magazine article titled it’s time for more ‘deerly’ departed :

Part of the problem is we have too much of a good thing. Ohio’s current deer herd is estimated at 600,000. Just 20 years ago, we had 150,000. Making things worse, the herd has grown while open space has shrunk. As we turn their habitat into housing tracts, we’re forcing the deer onto freeways and farms.

If 600,000 are too many, what’s a better number? 250,000 would be good, according to Ohio Farm Bureau delegates. The problem has been growing for years with no resolution in sight, creating a frustrating and unacceptable situation for farmers.

In 2005, 27,000 Ohio drivers saw, up close, what a deer in the headlights really looks like. Those car-deer collisions carried a cost of $71 million. Deer damage to crops, timber and nursery plants cost farm families additional millions. One Farm Bureau member has documented $70,000 in personal losses, likely an extreme, but indicative of the problem. A Cornell University study said that nationally, deer do more than $2 billion in damage every year.

There are people who don’t condone hunting at all. But this is not a debate over whether we manage the deer herd; it’s a debate over how we do it. This conversation belongs to farmers, hunters, wildlife officials and others who understand that hunting is an acceptable, even preferred wildlife management tool. It’s not the time to allow an important public policy debate to be sidetracked, even stolen by proponents of extreme beliefs and values. We can hold the argument over whether “animals are people too” some other time.


2008 Columbus Dispatch article :

By 1904, after decades of unlimited hunting, the white-tailed deer was wiped out in Ohio. What a difference a century makes. State wildlife officials say Ohio has at least 700,000 deer. That estimate doesn't include thousands living in metro parks, suburban areas and city fringes.

Officials say that many deer in Ohio damage crops, slow new forest growth and cause auto accidents. So the state now drafts plans to winnow Ohio's deer population through hunting. This year, a record 250,000 deer are expected to be killed. Despite this annual thinning, the total remains steady year to year.

Tonkovich and Petit said deer coexist well with nature when there are 15 to 20 per square mile of habitat. Petit said that when deer exceed that population density, they begin to overgraze, killing out wildflowers and tree seedlings.

That leaves fewer habitats for other animals, including ground- and shrub-nesting birds such as hooded warblers, wood thrush and Acadian flycatchers. It also affects a forest's ability to replace older, dying trees with new growth, Tonkovich said.

The Ohio Department of Natural Resources estimates that deer exceed 25 per square mile in 23 Ohio counties, primarily in the east and southeast. Cuyahoga Valley National Park has 45 to 50 deer per square mile.


Ohio's deer population:

Nov 29, 2009 Columbus dispatch article :

... the 2008-09 harvest was large enough to affect this year's deer population, which fell from an estimated 700,000 in September 2008 to about 650,000 in September 2009.


Dec 1, 2009 Ohio DNR press release

Ohio hunters had near ideal weather for the opening day of deer-gun season. Hunters took 33,607 white-tailed deer on Monday.

Counties reporting the highest numbers of deer checked on Monday included Tuscarawas-1,763, Harrison-1,374, Coshocton-1,353, Guernsey-1,284, Licking-1,182, Holmes-1,165, Washington-1,010, Athens-925, Ashtabula-836, and Muskingum-799.

Combining the results of Monday's harvest with those from the early muzzleloader season, the first six weeks of archery season and the recent youth deer-gun season, a preliminary total of 97,371 deer have been killed so far this deer hunting season. That number compares to 95,074 harvested last year at this time. In all, hunters took a total of 252,017 deer during all of last year's hunting seasons.

Approximately 420,000 hunters are expected to participate in the statewide deer-gun season. Ohio's deer population was estimated to be 650,000 prior to the start of the fall hunting seasons.

The white-tailed deer is the most popular game animal in Ohio, frequently pursued by generations of hunters. Ohio ranks 8th nationally in annual hunting-related sales and 10th in the number of jobs associated with the hunting-related industry. Each year, hunting has a $859 million economic impact in Ohio through the sale of equipment, fuel, food, lodging and more.

posted by jr on Dec 02, 2009 at 01:30:04 pm     #  

Does anyone know how they determine these numbers? Even the U.S. census is wrong. How are they determining the number of deer in a county?

posted by hockeyfan on Dec 02, 2009 at 09:09:58 pm     #  

From Bobo: Also, aren't we paying with personal money, in via property taxes taxes, for this circus?

I'm not. I don't live in Ottawa Hills but I can watch the circus for free, including the clown (ahem) retired Ohio Supreme Court Justice Alice Robie Resnick :

"I was really surprised at such behavior. I would think everyone would respect other people's opinions," Ms. Resnick said (from The Blade)

Resnick needs to either hire a better PR man or get in touch with reality. What a buffoon.

From HockeyFan: Does anyone know how they determine these numbers?

Actually, I can answer that one. The deer are required to get a special village deer license when they enter Ottawa Hills, but I think the cost went up from last year to $1.50 for bucks and $1 for does. Yearlings and under get in free.

I can't believe that these fools actually considered spending $30,000 to hire 'sharpshooters' to clean out the deer, when they could have hired Cody Williams, The Poor But Honest Gun Trader of South Dakota for $10,000 along with a few of the cowboys from Diamond Dave's for another $5000 to clean out the deer and coyotes in ten days or so. Those old boys have had a lot of practice and never hit anything they weren't aiming at, and that's the truth.

posted by madjack on Dec 02, 2009 at 10:00:17 pm     #  

Madjack, I live in OH so I'm partially paying for the circus.

Hunting in OH is not like sitting in a corn field. The minute someone goes wrong or right they're capable of filling the dockets. This issue is very divisive.

posted by bobo on Dec 02, 2009 at 11:11:27 pm     #  

"Does anyone know how they determine these numbers?"

Forward looking infra red (FLIR) spotting deer heat signatures for deer which vary from other animals, from high altitude airplanes
Spotting per square mile from low alt. flyovers
Deer tags turned in by hunters
Breeding rates
Road kills
Mapping using GPS
Geographic information systems (GIS) mapping

posted by Offshore on Dec 03, 2009 at 08:45:43 am     #  

FLIR? I thought they just counted them.

I feel for you Bobo. No joke. With the economy as lousy as it is you'd think the elected leaders could find something just a little more important to discuss. But maybe not in Ottawa Hills.

posted by madjack on Dec 03, 2009 at 08:27:20 pm     #  

FLIR is part of my concern. I've only heard the total deer count based on one visual count done from an aircraft in Jan 2009. If we're going to start culling I would like to get more samples of the total population size.

posted by bobo on Dec 03, 2009 at 11:53:49 pm     #  

posted by toledolen on Dec 08, 2009 at 02:22:04 pm     #  

Serving this
http://www.bigskybrew.com/Our_Beers/Moose_Drool

posted by Offshore on Dec 08, 2009 at 02:36:12 pm     #  

Login or create an account to post a comment.