Toledo Talk

Fight of Franklin Park Mall

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=7276709.url

I'm not sure how they would count 300 kids running around but regardless even 2 kids fighting at the mall is more then enough. Where are these kids parents!? I think the mall needs to tighten up curfew and restrictions even more and maybe under 16 (since you cant drive under 16 and really have no reason to go to the mall since you probably don't have money to spend anyway)you must be accompanied by someone 21+. I say 21 plus because i feel it would cut down on being a hangout and more of a shopping destination.

As for the punishment these kids receive I think it should be to the fullest extent of the law. Many injuries to innocent people could have taken place and these kids obviously don't give a rats ass about anyone but themselves.

Assault on an officer at the old age of 14 are you kidding me? Kids these days have no respect for authority or elders. These are the same kids that you sit next to at the movie theater and they talk and laugh about their own conversation in the back. Yes, I am the guy that complains to the cops and gets you thrown out of the movie theater, you are welcome little bastards!

/rant

created by made_in_toledo on Feb 15, 2010 at 09:54:36 am     Business     Comments: 92

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Comments ... #

This is the kind of stuff that eventually killed Southwyck.

I did a double take when the Blade's headline called them "Scuffles." Are you kidding me? 300 kids in a "Scuffle?"

posted by corky on Feb 15, 2010 at 10:37:20 am     #  

"This is the kind of stuff that eventually killed Southwyck." - exactly, and this particular generation was spawn by 'em.

posted by justareviewer on Feb 15, 2010 at 10:45:18 am     #  

Mall of America - "Youth Under 16 must be accompanied by an adult 21 years or older from 4 p.m. until close." "During the Parental Escort hours, anyone 21 years or younger should be prepared to show a Mall of America employee identification card."

Doesn't sound like a bad policy.

posted by justphillips on Feb 15, 2010 at 11:09:52 am     #  

I'm going to go to the movies this Saturday,in order to see for myself why the paper is downplaying this, as if we don't already know. I wonder if any show in particular was the drawing card for such a large group of "scuffling kids"?

posted by Wulf on Feb 15, 2010 at 11:11:50 am     #  

You go and get to the bottom of this Wulfie!

posted by Ryan on Feb 15, 2010 at 11:28:01 am     #  

This is one of the reasons I haven't been to Franklin Park in such a long time, specialy to see a movie. Just too much riff raff hanging out there.

posted by steve155 on Feb 15, 2010 at 11:29:26 am     #  

Disappointing. I was in the line at Walmart, and the guy ahead of me said he was there for it, and said it was very violent and out of control. That alot of police had to be called in.

Well Franklin is our only indoor mall. Until another is made to replace it, that Mall is the only choice.

posted by OhioKimono on Feb 15, 2010 at 11:35:44 am     #  

I can do with out Franklin Park. I'm 32 years old and I can count on 2 hands how many times I've been there in those 32 years. There is nothing there for me, so I stay away.

posted by lfrost2125 on Feb 15, 2010 at 11:48:05 am     #  

Sounds to me like it was more of a riot. What can be done about this? I don't know. It is a difficult problem, of course the kids and the parents should address this, but they will not. Very touchy and knotty problem to solve. I am guessing Franklin Park will go the way of Southwyck if this continues but then the other malls will inherit the problem.

posted by ilovetoledo on Feb 15, 2010 at 12:21:05 pm     #  

I notice most of these fights seem to occur in the evening. I usually go to the Westfield Shopping Center before 5:00 PM, and the movies during the afternoon. So I have only heard about these incidents, and never seen them.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 15, 2010 at 12:43:48 pm     #  

Westfield should really invest more in security

posted by upso on Feb 15, 2010 at 12:55:02 pm     #  

Because it's not safe?

posted by billy on Feb 15, 2010 at 01:04:42 pm     #  

;)

posted by upso on Feb 15, 2010 at 01:17:16 pm     #  

Where is Carty when you need him.He would have put a can of whoop ass on those kids or maybe just called them fat asses.

posted by buckeye278 on Feb 15, 2010 at 01:22:04 pm     #  

wouldnt know - never needed him.

posted by billy on Feb 15, 2010 at 02:12:01 pm     #  

We were at Westfield yesterday for a show, and went downstairs to the mall about 6:15. I was shocked at how packed the food court was, particularly since the mall was closing. Tons of teens and younger adults, all dressed like thugs.

Since it was just a day after the food court fight, I would've thought the cops would have cracked down more.

posted by Anniecski on Feb 15, 2010 at 02:43:15 pm     #  

My question is why hasn't more been done to prevent this already? These fights have been popping up for a few years now. It's not like the recent one was something new.

Why not adopt a 16 and up policy like Mall of America's or zero tolerance on loitering? Whatever the current policy is doesn't seem to be stopping these outbreaks.

posted by housebeats on Feb 15, 2010 at 02:46:12 pm     #  

Let's start up the guardian angels or something like that for use here in the area.

posted by hockeyfan on Feb 15, 2010 at 03:44:15 pm     #  

Has anyone thought to show this thread to the likes of the Mall management? To shock them into waking up toward the decay their image is in?

posted by OhioKimono on Feb 15, 2010 at 03:50:10 pm     #  

The world wide web is MY mall :^p

posted by djimpelr on Feb 15, 2010 at 05:11:43 pm     #  

I gotta believe that Westfield is more than aware of what is going on. They probably just don't know what to do about it. There is an elephant in the room that should be acknowledged: the issue is really young black teenagers loitering and fighting at a mall that caters mostly to white shoppers. Maybe Westfield doesn't want to seem like they are targeting minorities with any kind of "profiling" or what not. But they would be wise to note the lesson of Southwyck as to how fast a nice mall can become a ghost town if your average shopper is concerned about getting caught up in a brawl between gangs when all they wanted was to buy a shirt at the Gap and eat at Chik-a-fil-a.

posted by Ace_Face on Feb 15, 2010 at 05:28:31 pm     #  

Recently my son in law was walking in the mall when a group of teenagers were walking side by side trying to intimidate people coming towards them.Needless to say, they tried it with the wrong guy.When they wouldn't move he put the teenage thug on his backside.The punk looked up and said ,why did you have to do that man?My son in law told him that maybe the next time he might think twice before bumping into people and taking up the whole walkway.

posted by buckeye278 on Feb 15, 2010 at 06:07:24 pm     #  

My wife and kids went to a movie at Franklin Park Friday night, that is over for sure. The mall has to deal with dwindling revenue, the closed in 90's super mall design, and the implications of and potential lawsuits based on any accusation that their policy would be racially based. Its a lose lose, and once a lawsuit is filed by the parents of one of the willing participants, Westfield will leave Toledo like many other businesses.

TAHL

posted by CynicalCounsel on Feb 15, 2010 at 07:26:18 pm     #  

Any thoughts on what would happen to 300 white teens, from the "burbs", who would dare to cause a similar riot. Just asking.

posted by Elmo on Feb 15, 2010 at 09:13:45 pm     #  

Feb 15, 2010 - WTVG - Mall employees speak out after weekend brawl

According to the police report, three teenage girls who claimed to be part of a gang called the Wreck Squad got into a fight.

One mall employee who asked us not to show her face says Westfield Franklin Park mall lacks the proper security to handle fights. "We have groups of people that will congregate outside of our stores, and we have to go ask them to move because there's no security there to move them."

Employees tell 13abc fights happen all the time. Another mall employee believes shoppers are scared. "Oh, they do fear for their safety. You can watch the clientele, and at 4 p.m., all of our older generation is gone. It just turns into young kids, teenagers."

Mall officials released a statement, saying "we will continue to work with local law enforcement until this matter is resolved."

Mall employees called the statement a joke. One said, "Oh here we go again. We'll have another meeting. We'll discuss what happened. And nothing will get done."

posted by jr on Feb 15, 2010 at 09:30:19 pm     #  

The mall is only the venue. The attraction is the movie.

At UT last Friday, Savage Arena was the venue. The attraction was the Libbey-Scott basketball game.

Both venues attracted large groups of thug dressed teenagers who were there only to cause trouble and fight.

Solution? Eliminate the attractions.
No movie or no basketball game, then no excuse to gather!

Westfield would be wise to close the theaters. The same as Savage is considering the ball game reductions!

posted by toledofred on Feb 15, 2010 at 09:38:10 pm     #  

The only problem is that if we keep eliminating attractions, they will find SOMEWHERE to congregate. And the same issues will continue to follow wherever the crowd goes.

Its unfortunate that we can't seem to tackle the causes of the trouble, rather than to keep closing things down and letting the problems move elsewhere.

(I don't have any answers to how to fix things, but a lot of it needs to start in the home!)

posted by mom2 on Feb 15, 2010 at 09:52:35 pm     #  

toledofred, no offense but that's an awful suggestion
the whole problem is there are not enough things for the youth of toledo to occupy their time with. our schools lack after school activities and our city lacks community centers.

idle hands are the devil's workshop etc etc etc
Mom2 is right. The kids will just gather in the streets if you take away the mall.

posted by upso on Feb 15, 2010 at 10:10:47 pm     #  

If I understand, if the theaters are shut down, then the thugs won't go to the mall...they will instead gather in the streets. Well then, it would be a safer mall for law abiding people to go to then, right?

posted by toledofred on Feb 15, 2010 at 10:46:41 pm     #  

Hey Westfield:

1. Adopt a Mall of America policy requiring an adult escort for anyone 16 years and younger.

2. Enforce it equally and fairly

3. Enlist the help of TPD and prosecute anyone who breaks the policy for trespassing, curfew violations, etc.

posted by corky on Feb 15, 2010 at 11:08:46 pm     #  

toledofred - I don't disagree that the mall is a business, and policies should be implemented to cater to their paying customers.

My point of disagreement was with this part of your statement:

Solution? Eliminate the attractions.
No movie or no basketball game, then no excuse to gather!

Kids will gather somewhere - they don't need an excuse.

As upso said, if there isn't anything productive to do, unfortunately that could make things worse.

I'm not saying its the mall owners's responsibility to provide them with a place to hang out, especially if they are being disruptive.

But we can't take away ALL attractions as you suggested, or I think that would create far more problems than it would resolve.

(And if we get to the point where we can't allow high school students to attend high school basketball games, then that says something really sad about our community.)

posted by mom2 on Feb 15, 2010 at 11:27:09 pm     #  

Corky is right.

They should double their security, with able bodies (not old men with hearing problems), implement policies where children have escorts and enforce it equally (the mall is NOT a substitute for babysitters!), and once they have done these things send out a press release to local media outlets as some serious PR damage control.

posted by toledolen on Feb 15, 2010 at 11:38:21 pm     #  

shakes head :( at this point I don't care about the mall I'm concerned why this is even a problem. Guess I'm a bit sheltered from seeing this on a daily basis but why are the kids like this.

Toledo has a lot of opportunities for kids and young adults, but tends to be spread out. Maybe a deep discount bus fair for students? Know Houston had that, and was nice.
Like $20 a month gets you unlimited rides around the greater Toledo metro.

Zoo, parks, other malls, museums, cosi, library, various eateries.

Just a from the hip idea.

posted by INeedCoffee on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:08:42 am     #  

The mall should not have to act as parents to these aimless teens. Parents are responsible for their kids.

posted by Hoops on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:09:25 am     #  

You're assuming these kids have parents. Most of the troublemakers probably come from families with only a mother, and the important question each boy asks a girl is "Who's your daddy" so they don't end in an incestuous relationship.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:18:37 am     #  

oldsendbrdy, dude, no.

posted by toledolen on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:45:16 am     #  

I propose a left-field solution for mall owners... build a new mall closer to the central city. Toledo is big enough for two enclosed malls, and in this case, seems to be suffering from having only one - which happens to be in a nice part of town and is obviously geared towards upmarket clientele.

Reverse the trend of following the dollars out to the suburbs and re-invest in the city. The old jeep plant site (bordered by I-75, Central and Detroit) would be perfect.

posted by housebeats on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:45:41 am     #  

The movie theaters should never have been part of the mall's update/expansion several years ago.

Big, big mistake. Said so at the time.

posted by McCaskey on Feb 16, 2010 at 02:16:00 am     #  

So mall owners should build a mall closer to central city so all the trouble makers will go there and leave the nice people at Westfield alone?

Gee - who'd be in line to finance that??

posted by billy on Feb 16, 2010 at 08:36:01 am     #  

There is nothing that can be done. The youths have nothing else to do so they come to the mall and trouble starts. Paying patrons no longer come and mall income drops, so stores close. The troublemakers also will end up going to Fallen Timbers or Levis Commons and the whole cycle repeats itself. That is what will happen.

posted by ilovetoledo on Feb 16, 2010 at 10:08:18 am     #  

Then maybe just surrender the city to the troublemakers and be done with it. Pull the police out, the guards out, and the lawyers out. Let each individual be responsible for their own security. See how long it takes for troublemakers to be dealt with, in a way troublemakers will be able to understand.

posted by Wulf on Feb 16, 2010 at 10:31:47 am     #  

It would be nice if the 300 people involved were given a community service project... like shoveling snow for elderly or for the city. In this case it seems that only the 13 arrested will face real punishment and the rest will have no consequences.

I didn't hear of a fight at the basketball game on Friday night. I was at the SFS SJJ game at Savage. In my opinion there weren't a lot of kids coming in for the Scott Libbey game. I thought it was sad how few people were there to support their school.

The problem is definitely a reflection on the parents who apparently have no interest contributing to the success of this city by making sure their kids do well in school and stay out of trouble.

I still shop at Westfield. If ever there on a friday or saturday evening I make a point to use good manners. If a kid bumps into me I say pardon me and smile. Most kids are good at heart, they just don't have a lot of options ie jobs or expensive extra curricular activities to keep them busy.

posted by fish4 on Feb 16, 2010 at 10:41:47 am     #  

I remember hearing that Fallen Timbers was specifically built as an outdoor to avoid the loitering teenagers. Levis hasn't added any stores that would attract teens thus far.

posted by fish4 on Feb 16, 2010 at 10:49:07 am     #  

"Westfield should really invest more in security"

"Westfield Franklin Park mall lacks the proper security to handle fights."

"They should double their security, with able bodies ..."

But what can mall security do? Are they permitted to intervene physically, or are they restricted to "observe and report" and wait for the police to arrive?

If the latter, I wouldn't count on the situation at Westfield Mall improving with the mall owners simply adding more mall security. It could all depend upon how fast and how many Toledo police arrive at the mall. And personally, I want our undersized Toledo police force focusing on more important issues on a weekend night than unruly teenagers at a shopping center.

This situation is being fostered by the mall owners. It seems "incidents" have been occurring at the new Westfield Mall for about three or four years now. It should be the mall owners responsibility to rectify the problem by implementing and enforcing new business rules. If this was a small business, Toledo government would be trying to implement a new law that could force the business to close.

You've probably seen this story from last week about an incident that occurred in Seattle last month. A teenager is beaten and robbed by other teenagers or young adults near three security guards who, apparently, are not allowed to intervene. If the guards touch the teenage attacker, they'll probably get sued. But because the guards did not help the victim, the guards or security firm will probably get sued. Love that legal system. I'm guessing these guards need the job, the paycheck, and if they violated orders by getting involved, they could be fired.

The first few seconds of the video are out of focus.

From the news story :

A teenage girl beaten in a Seattle bus tunnel as three security guards who were following company orders looked on.

"On a human level, they certainly should have intervened. Everybody agrees on that," Sgt. John Urquhart told CBS' "The Early Show Saturday Edition." "However, their role down there in the tunnel, what they're trained to do, what they’re ordered to do, is to observe and report. In other words, not get involved. And that's really very, very common with civilian security. Unfortunately, the public expects more."

Bible said there is a "substantial likelihood" a lawsuit will be filed.

The Seattle Times reports that friends and relatives of the four arrested have said the situation has been blown out of proportion. They said the two girls have fought each other often over the past two years, and that the girl beaten this time has usually won.

posted by jr on Feb 16, 2010 at 10:57:42 am     #  

Toledo Police to discuss options to prevent mall brawls.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100216/NEWS16/100219761

&

posted by toledolen on Feb 16, 2010 at 11:30:56 am     #  

-&

posted by toledolen on Feb 16, 2010 at 11:31:07 am     #  

"Blown out of proportion", so that makes it ok and they condone the behavior. Todays kids have been told they are untouchable, that they have all these rights and that a good lawsuit is the result if they are interfered with. They have been told that if anyone especially their parents try to discipline them it is child abuse, and they therefore have a right to act as stupid as they want with no regard or fear of anything. Congradulations society has created monsters and now we reap the benefits, and of course those same worthless parents just consider that its not my kid thats the problem, not MY Johnie hes a good kid, he would never lie to me oh no he always tells me everything and never lies. Guess you hear and believe what you want, even if your just lying to yourself.

posted by Linecrosser on Feb 16, 2010 at 11:39:32 am     #  

I don't bother going to Franklin anymore when we have the Shops at Fallen Timbers and Levis Commons.

posted by AquaMan22 on Feb 16, 2010 at 11:43:29 am     #  

It could all depend upon how fast and how many Toledo police arrive at the mall. And personally, I want our undersized Toledo police force focusing on more important issues on a weekend night than unruly teenagers at a shopping center.

Undersized force or not, the situation at the mall many weekend nights is the bigggest reason there needs to be a beefed-up prescence of Toledo police officers there.

Particularly, as you've pointed out, the mall's private security people may be restricted in what they can do. There should not have to be calls going out for Toledo police after problems start; they should already be there.

I'm not talking 24/7, I'm talking Fri. and Sat. nights, say, 7 to midnight, or whenever the late movies end.

posted by McCaskey on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:01:43 pm     #  

Now the Blade is reporting it was 150 kids rather than 300, http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100216/NEWS16/100219761 . I wonder how many kids were really there?

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:02:06 pm     #  

I do like the idea of a venue for teens. Find a place near where the majority live or would want to go. Allow food vendors in there (let them to be armed, of course) along the wall (like at Westfield Center), put up some big screens or TVs for recent movies, and allow them to "rave". Maybe even set up a "cage" so those who want to can beat each other to a pulp. Or fill the place up, lock it from the outside, and let the survivors out in the morning. We need a place where the gangs can "punk" one another, and the survivors can leave the rest of us alone.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:09:50 pm     #  

Why not just pipe classical music inside the mall, nice and loud? That'll clear 'em out-or better yet, country and western! Seriously, music offensive to their ears is as effective as anything at keeping troublemakers out.

posted by Wulf on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:10:46 pm     #  

I wonder if this was planned. Do the gangs decide where to engage one another so that the rest of us can be intimidated by their activities? Since I am home before dark (mom does not want me out after) I hardly ever see what is reported as "crime" in the news.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:15:18 pm     #  

All I know is where else can you watch entertainment like this, for free? Think about it-why pay exorbitant prices for tickets and popcorn, when you can hang around the lobby and watch just as good a show, for nothing? Add to that the fact that there is some actual danger present, which should add to the entertainment value of "a night at the movies".

posted by Wulf on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:22:08 pm     #  

From JR: But what can mall security do?

Mall security has the same authority as any private citizen. Their authority to use force and arrest an alleged criminal is no different from any other adult who is not a member of the Toledo Police. Moreover, I believe that in Ohio the crime must be a felony or theft, and the arresting citizen must have directly witnessed the crime. The arresting citizen risks kidnapping by making a false arrest, which is itself a felony. Any attorney reading this please feel free to wade in and correct me.

My own experience with the TPD at Westfield Mall leads me to believe that the TPD has no real interest in making any kind of arrest or in keeping the peace. The TPD are present in the theater but do nothing to quiet rowdy teens in the audience or to settle teenage behavior in the halls.

posted by madjack on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:32:47 pm     #  

From the Blade article:

'Teenagers involved in the fight are students at McTigue Middle School, Rogers High School, Whitmer High School, Start High School, Bowsher High School, Central Catholic High School, Springfield High School, Phoenix Academy, and St. Clement Elementary School.'

Interesting. Three private schools (what the hell is 'Phoenix Academy'?), including an elementary school, and a 'suburban' high school (Springfield) included in the mix.

posted by McCaskey on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:36:40 pm     #  

Start holding not only the kids responsible, but their parents too.

posted by JeepMaker on Feb 16, 2010 at 12:59:36 pm     #  

This shows Phoenix Academy's mission, http://www.phoenixtoledo.org/mission.htm . They might want to consider adding self-defense, or maybe socialization in a gang setting.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 16, 2010 at 01:01:37 pm     #  

To Fish4.....The first game at Savage last Friday was without incident. The second game, attended by about 75% less fans, ended with numerous brawls both inside and outside the arena. Many, many security personnel responded quickly to all incidents. The were ready for problems. UT Police, Toledo Police, Luc Cty Deputies, and TPS Security were all present for the second game.

posted by toledofred on Feb 16, 2010 at 01:06:26 pm     #  

My nephew goes to this place, http://www.internationalboxingclub.org/ . He used to play football, and got interested in this place (partly because his grandfather used to box). This place would be coaching a lot more kids but they can't get more coaches. The place really teaches discipline. The kids are required to do their homework there before they begin their workouts. He also has them cleaning the gym as part of their discipline. It is usually several months before the kids can have a bout. It is more than just beating the crap out of one another.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 16, 2010 at 01:10:15 pm     #  

"Start holding not only the kids responsible, but their parents too."
*******************

I agree totally, but when these kids learned this behavior from the parents it is impossible. You can do nothing when one segment of the population just does not give a damn.

posted by ilovetoledo on Feb 16, 2010 at 01:25:59 pm     #  

"Mall security has the same authority as any private citizen. Their authority to use force and arrest an alleged criminal is no different from any other adult who is not a member of the Toledo Police."

So that's a long way of saying mall security can only observe and report and not get involved, correct?

"Undersized force or not, the situation at the mall many weekend nights is the bigggest reason there needs to be a beefed-up prescence of Toledo police officers there"

From today's Blade story, that was done or tried years ago:

Toledo police and mall officials agreed to increase security in December, 2006, after two males, 15 and 18, were hurt in a fight with a group of teens at the mall. Police increased their presence at the mall with occasional visits from patrol and gang task-force officers, and off-duty officers to supplement mall security.

posted by jr on Feb 16, 2010 at 01:36:21 pm     #  

The only reason I go to Westfield is for the movies and Chick-fil-a. I think Chick-fil-a needs a stand alone store in Toledo, and then I would be all set! Does Westfield prohibit CCW? I guess Im going to have to start carrying when I visit!

posted by draven4099 on Feb 16, 2010 at 01:36:24 pm     #  

posted by toledolen on Feb 16, 2010 at 01:40:17 pm     #  

I think Westfield should go the way of UT or Cedar Point. They should have their own police force, by hiring OPOTA ceritifed candidates. You can incorporate these individuals along with the existing security, in order to beef up a show of force. Plus, you create new jobs in Toledo!

posted by draven4099 on Feb 16, 2010 at 01:42:31 pm     #  

i forgot the name of the (black) comedian that said it best "there's two kind of malls in america, ones that white people go to and ones that white people used to go to".

posted by creon on Feb 16, 2010 at 03:08:41 pm     #  

I've been really interested reading this thread the last few days. I generally only go to the mall for the movies, or Bravo's but occasionally we will walk through. I understand why people would be so intimidated by the throngs of teens that gather there at times. Everyone knows that the group mentality can be very scary.

With as much money as people bring into the stores in the mall I hope the renters are making a case to Westfield that it is their responsibility to address the issue. This is not a City issue. We penalize bars that have fight problems, no reason we shouldn't do the same to Malls.

posted by tlm0000 on Feb 16, 2010 at 03:27:08 pm     #  

Or do what the did in England, they pipe some god awful noise at a frequency that only kids can hear. Kinda like dog whistles hehe think about 20khz or so adults have enough hearing lose to not be able to hear it but kids do.

posted by Linecrosser on Feb 16, 2010 at 03:30:55 pm     #  

Let's carry the English bit one step further-re-institute that grand old English punishment for habitual troublemakers-the ear 'lopping'!

posted by Wulf on Feb 16, 2010 at 03:57:52 pm     #  

As much as I hate to say it, I believe we are seeing the end of days of the Shopping Mall all over America, and the revival of the Shopping Centers such as the original Miricle Mile, Great Eastern, West Gate and Swayne Field type faciilities.

Security has a lot to do with this issue. Outside of the building security problems are of less liability than inside the building. There's obviously less costs related to the Mall, but I've observed that Malls close mostley due to security issues. An assault inside creates a lot more of a problem than when it happens in the Parking Lot.

I've lived all over the midwest and watched this occurring.

Out of control youth.

posted by rch101 on Feb 16, 2010 at 04:21:34 pm     #  

there was a comic who was popular about 20yrs ago. He did a bit about how cities all have two different malls.

posted by billy on Feb 16, 2010 at 04:39:29 pm     #  

Chris Rock, http://thinkexist.com/quotation/every_town_has_the_same_two_malls-the_one_white/201894.html , made the comment about the two malls.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 16, 2010 at 05:23:39 pm     #  

If we lived in a small tribe how would we deal with miscreants like these? Would we permit them to act out, and go on their way, or would they warrant severe punishment? What is the proper punishment for striking an officer of the peace? We have evolved (in law) to this state. Children are permitted to "act out", and are given quite a bit of leeway. Our culture (and law) permit this. Instead of having harsh laws to cover everything we have left law to the "experts" who have evolved the law case-by-case.
We no longer hang children for being pickpockets. Instead we grant them more leniency than they will ever know as an adult. And we wonder why they act as they do. We have moved from one extreme to the other.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 16, 2010 at 06:01:21 pm     #  

I remember that as a youth in Toledo a trip by Police to C.S.I. (Child Study Institute) or the minors equivalent to jail was a very bad thing. And the really bad guys were sent to Mansfield to the Boys Industrial School. When you came out of there, you either never got into trouble again or ended up in the State Pen. Steal a car when you were a minor and it was grand theft auto and always followed you. Well as long as you stayed in Toledo anyway. Back then, the Police remembered you and your character from the time you were a little tyke riding a tricycle on the sidewalk until you finished High School. You never wanted to make yourself look bad in front of them. Or disgrase your family. I would like to know how many of the kids in this fight were from single parent homes.

posted by rch101 on Feb 16, 2010 at 07:10:48 pm     #  

What can mall security do? Not much until their superiors the mall management empower them to do something.

By that I mean, the management has to first adopt a policy of no one 16 years and younger without a parent.

Then, mall security officers, need to "grow a pair" and simply enforce the policy of the management but do so fairly and equally. If a person refuses to leave, the police should be called and the possibility of trespassing charges should be pursued.

Believe me, it wouldn't take long before the message got out.

posted by corky on Feb 16, 2010 at 07:41:52 pm     #  

Fox news reported today that mall management, security, and police have worked out several new policies.

I think this will help, and it's good that they're not banning all kids as only a small percentage of them start trouble.

posted by housebeats on Feb 16, 2010 at 08:25:25 pm     #  

Westfield Franklin Park considers curfew.

"Westfield must first discuss a controversial 7:00 p.m. curfew option with their corporate office before adopting the curfew for the mall's younger patrons."

http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=417212

posted by toledolen on Feb 16, 2010 at 09:38:02 pm     #  

Checked the new policies out. I have faith in capitalistic businessmen. Eventually their "best intentions" will be overcome with the desire for more profit. They will cut the number of people involved in security, the kids will catch on, and we will have more "incidents" in the future as we've had in the past. This will occur about the time they decide to abandon Westfield Center, and build new elsewhere rather than do the maintenance required to keep the structure workable.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 16, 2010 at 09:57:35 pm     #  

The sky is falling the sky is falling.

posted by Ryan on Feb 16, 2010 at 11:04:21 pm     #  

From Ryan: The sky is falling the sky is falling.

Run and hide, Chicken Little!

Here's a quote from the article Zero tolerance in wake of mall brawl

In the wake of Saturday's melee, a former Westfield Franklin Park security guard said he still wouldn't send his wife to the mall by herself on a Friday or Saturday night.

"Anyone here knows the name for security guards is rent-a-cop," said Mike. "They don't listen to you because you have no authority."

Mike said that lack of authority and lack of presence of real police officers makes children under 18 can run wild and commit crimes without getting caught.

Or if caught, without being punished. Mall cops have no real authority and both kids and mall cops know it. TPD doesn't want to be bothered.

If you talk to the store owners and workers you'll find that teen fights in the mall are common, as is theft and vandalism.

Of course now that the mall has posted these rules and adopted a zero tolerance policy, all this will be past history.

posted by madjack on Feb 17, 2010 at 10:51:35 am     #  

I noticed this in their code of conduct.

Possession of any item that could be used as a weapon, including but not limited to: firearms, explosives, fireworks, clubs or sticks over ¼ inch in diameter (excepting umbrellas or canes), chemical dispensing devices, knives with blades over 2 inches in length, or any other object(s) that may be used in any way to inflict bodily injury on another person.

I have never noticed "no guns" signs on their doors, has that changed? I will not patronize a business that prohibits me from protecting myself.

posted by JeepMaker on Feb 17, 2010 at 11:27:47 am     #  

Kids already complaining about mistreatment from mall guards: http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=11997004

posted by ilovetoledo on Feb 17, 2010 at 11:34:52 am     #  

Maybe issue all the guards segways?

posted by billy on Feb 17, 2010 at 11:51:52 am     #  

Reads like the guards, http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=11997004 , better start wearing video cameras so the liars can be shifted from those who tell the truth.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Feb 17, 2010 at 11:54:47 am     #  

Another example of "Oh my babies perfect and would never do anything wrong"

If there is a fight with that many people, they are going to detain as many people as possible until they figure it out, so no one that was involved gets loose.

posted by lfrost2125 on Feb 17, 2010 at 11:56:12 am     #  

Let's just change the sign to "Westfield Day Care and Thugs Drop-Off"

There are plenty of surveillance cameras in the mall common space to assist in defining stories.

A curfew is inevitable at this mall. The Blade stories indicated this worked wonders at Fairlane Mall in Detroit and stores saw sales increase.

posted by Hoops on Feb 17, 2010 at 02:39:09 pm     #  

Way to deal with 'thugs'? Not suggested that you try this: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread544363/pg1

posted by ilovetoledo on Feb 17, 2010 at 03:11:19 pm     #  

hahaha. wow.

posted by toledolen on Feb 17, 2010 at 03:18:37 pm     #  

Man went and moved and the brother had to egg him on, think he made a mistake, and then stole the guys bag of stuff on top of it, or the woman did. Did you hear her say want to press charges i got it on video?

posted by Linecrosser on Feb 17, 2010 at 03:23:08 pm     #  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQJFv9SMSMQ - the Bus fight video being refered to for those who want a more "common known source"

posted by OhioKimono on Feb 17, 2010 at 04:08:18 pm     #  

>Does Westfield prohibit CCW? I guess Im going to have to start carrying when I visit!<
After I got my Carry Permit I looked for "GunBuster" signs and only found them on the doors leading into the theater. That's been several months ago. I'll need to re-check.

posted by Trilby on Feb 17, 2010 at 05:49:38 pm     #  

Pretty good discussion.
I only go to Westfield when Macy's is having a sale. I prefer Fallen Timbers or the catalogs.
I remember a parent telling me that she only permitted her teen to watch movies at Maumee because there was no trouble for her to get into out there. this is at least five years ago.
She would drop her off and pick her up knowing there was security if trouble erupted.

posted by estioney on Feb 17, 2010 at 06:56:22 pm     #