Better Business Bureau useless

Wow. That's pretty lame :(

Yep the BBB of Toledo is certailly worthless. What they really need is more members. Dick Epstein would like to get a really good toupee for his TV segments where he gives us such good advice.

Wow. Game was over when you mentioned 'she knows personally how good they are'. Talk about a bias! I've used the BBB a couple of times, one was the BBB out of Chicago and they put enough 'heat' on a company that the company shipped us the fitness machine right before we set sail. I used another one out of Mobile and they couldn't help me get my refund back, but they did recommend that the hotel get their act together. I guess it depends on how morally strong a city's BBB is.

My experience with the BBB is about the same. They have no real power or authority to do anything. All they do is keep a record of complaints. The problem is, if you ever get one of those "completely unable to make happy" customers, your record at the BBB is screwed.
Besides, as a business owner, you have to pay to join them so you can say "BBB listed business" as though that means something.

BBB honestly, from my experiance is a joke if not a hoax at best.

I dont hold fault with the BBB as a hold, think another posted summed it up pretty nicely when stating it might be a Toledo BBB thing.

One time back home I had a dispute with my phone carrier and one call to the BBB with my receipts and paper worked forced them to answer to the problem in a way they never did in the 2-3 months I tried to get it resolved myself.

The scenario was basically I paid my cell phone bill, and the receptionist accidentally applied my payment to someone else account. I had the receipt of payment, date, and it even showed the "incorrect" account # it was applied to. Even with obvious paperwork showing they were at fault they did nothing. So was grateful that the BBB had the "strength" to act on my behalf and get them to correct it.

Sad that appears to not be the case here. From the original posters comments it does show heavy bias and amazed they can do business like that. Sorry you weren't able to get it resolved.

We've gotta ask who the real rascal is here: US. How many people actually check the BBB record of a business before they make use of it? Very, very few.

GZ, you are correct, because I didn't and got taken by the worst shysters ever...Eyeglass World! The thing is, the local BBB, checked after the fact, had only one complaint. I found all the info I needed to confirm my belief that I had been taken online.

I always check out a business online at bbb.com before I make a online purchase. I have bought quite a few things computer wise through pricewatch.com which has its own review system but I still check with bbb.com before any purchase. I have found several companies that I did not use from the info I got from there. Sounds like either the woman was a good friend of theirs or was related. I would find someway to report her and a transcript of that conversation to another bbb.

Call for Action!!

Go down there and pay them a visit in person!!

They probably think of your claim as more work for them, and people these days are interested in that...

Are they non-for-profit??

I find most of these people that runs these type of nonforprofits are making way to much money and hardly do any work, and have great benefits packages and compnay car and credit cards......

I used to think the BBB Plaque at a business was damn close to being the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval." That ended when a neighbor, a couple of years ago, wanted to file a complaint against a local vet who is a member of the BBB. Well, guess what? The BBB may allow vets and physicians to be members but THEY DON'T TAKE COMPLAINTS AGAINST VETS AND PHYSICIANS! So, basically, all the BBB is a members only business organization, period. You pay your dues and you get to proudly display their lovely plaque which, if that plaque is in a physician's or vet's office, means absolutely nothing!

http://www.bbb.org/atlanta/business-reviews/optical-goods-retail/eyeglass-world-in-lawrenceville-ga-27255831

Here is what I found at bbb.com for eyeglass world, it rated them a F for complaints and resolutions. There is also a eyeglass world express, rating of nr, meaning another bbb section did theit rating.

I've never found the BBB to be anything other than useless. Unless a company wants to add or enhance its image of legitimacy.

Golddustwoman, you're absolutely right! I filed a complaint against a veterinarian, who is a member of the BBB and hangs the BBB plaque in the lobby of his facility. This veterinarian not only overcharged me for services my pet didn't get, but gave my pet a drug I specifically told him not to give her because she had an adverse reaction when she got the drug years before. His response? "I forgot." This vet was incredibly rude and incompetent. I filed a complaint with the BBB. Then I got a letter from the BBB saying, `Sorry, we don't accept complaints against veterinarians. File with the state licensing board.' I don't think it was fair that the vet is allowed to hide behind the BBB to promote his facility while the BBB refuses to accept complaints against him. I got on the BBB Web site weeks later and checked the veterinarian's profile. To my disgust, it stated "BBB processed a total of 0 complaints about this veterinarian in the last 36 months," and gave him an A+ rating. What a fraud. Either process complaints against ALL members and non-members, or remove their names from the BBB database if the BBB refuses to process complaints against them. Don't trust the BBB to give you information about veterinarians if you are thinking of taking your pets to a specific veterinarian because it's a farce.

The entire premise is wrong. Pay to join, and they track complaints. Isn't that a basic conflict of interest? Their time has passed.

I also called the BBB to complain about veterinary service and was told they would not take the complaint, even though the vet was a member of the BBB. His profile on the BBB Web site also notes he has had no complaints. I guess they protect members from complaints, which makes the BBB a joke! Growing up, I remember that the mere mention of the BBB to a business or service that had disatisfied customers sent shivers down their spines. No more. There is a book that was written by a professor in Illinois who is a member of the state's local BBB, and he talks about problems such as the northwest Ohio BBB and others across the country who protect members from complaints and how it discredits the BBB. If I find the book, I'll post it.

I've used the Toledo BBB several times and have always had excellent service.

"I've used the Toledo BBB several times and have always had excellent service."

Your beef was probably with non-members of the BBB.

Ouch! I was stunned to read these criticisms of our agency. We knock ourselves out every day trying to warn consumers about scams and dishonest companies, and absolutely nothing said by bikerdude sounds remotely like how we work. If anyone in my staff withheld letters addressed to me, or refused to accept a complaint because the company was accredited by us (a member) she would be out the door! We receive over 5,000 complaints every year on companies in 18 Ohio and Michigan counties. The idea that paying us money "protects" them must surprise the 14 dues-paying firms we expelled last year for complaint activity. We give letter grades on all businesses, and over 300 in our BBB area have grades of "F". If bikerdude would please email me at dickep@toledobbb.org, I will be happy to try to find out if we can help him and what happened when he complained to us.
Dick Eppstein, BBB

I have a question for you Mr. Epstein. Why allow vets and docs to be members of the BBB and then not allow a complaint to be filed? Like I said in my above post, I always thought that a business carrying the BBB plaque was like having the Good Housekeeping seal of approval. That they were the "gold standard" of businesses that could be trusted. From the above posts, I see that that is not the case. Why allow a business to be a memmber, hang YOUR plaque (which to me offers a false sense of security to the unwitting customer) and then refuse to take and/or accept complaints?

I was concerned about the charities that call us for donations, so I requested the Wise Giving and Charity Giving guides from our local BBB. They were courteous on the phone and mailed out the material the next day. Providing the charity ratings is a valuable service and I'm grateful I was able to get these publications to help me weed out the nonprofits that don't meet transparency and accountability standards.

I had a very similar experience to the OP several years ago. Useless is right.

"I filed a complaint with the BBB. Then I got a letter from the BBB saying, `Sorry, we don't accept complaints against veterinarians...I got on the BBB Web site weeks later and checked the veterinarian's profile. To my disgust, it stated "BBB processed a total of 0 complaints about this veterinarian in the last 36 months," and gave him an A+ rating."

Dick, please explain why you refuse to process complaints against veterinarians and other health care professionals, as Golddustwoman noted, as well as myself and Gemini, but when the public downloads their profile on your Web site, it states there have been no complaints processed against this person for the last 36 months. Now that is fraud, because the public is led to believe nobody has complained against these people, when obviously they have. It defies logic.

"We give letter grades on all businesses, and over 300 in our BBB area have grades of "F"."

How can you give a letter grade to businesses that consumers are not allowed to file a complaint on? Why do I see vets lisetd with A-plus grades with the statement that they have no complaints on file when the BBB DOES NOT ALLOW complaints to be filed against vets? To me, this is hinging on fraud.

Why don't we take complaints against vets? We do! In the past 12 months we processed complaints against vets in Toledo, Maumee, Sylvania, Perrysburg, Clyde, Sandusky and other towns. But we have important limits when we get complaints against licensed professionals, whether physicians, attorneys, dentists, architects, or vets. Complaints on billing errors, rudeness, false advertising, etc. are fine. But many complaints we receive against professionals involve allegations of malpractice, serious professional errors or even incompetence. In such cases, the proper action is to refer these cases to their own licensing boards or peer review groups for investigation. We explain this to callers and provide numbers or addresses (or forward the complaints if actually sent to us) so the proper experts can investigate the allegations. When found guilty, these boards can pull the licenses or even prosecute the professionals...which is what we want! We can't know if a surgeon or attorney or dentist committed serious errors; that is determined by their peers. Our problem is that we never can obtain the results of the investigations - so we are forced to wait like everyone else for the story in the newspaper. If action is taken against the dentist, or architect, or vet, they are immediately suspended by the BBB. Oh - if we see a pattern of complaints (billing, etc.) we will still kick them out. But I suspect these consumers had malpractice issues and I'm sure we asked them to get the Veterinary Board involved. The system is not perfect, but our office is filled with pet lovers and we have zero patience with malpractice when we can confirm it. Getting the proof is not as easy as so many folks believe. We spend hours reviewing many of these cases and we take them very seriously. I invite any of you who are skeptical to visit our office and meet with our people. We are human and don't bat 1000%, but we care deeply and will be happy to go over everything we do with you in person. We are at 7668 Kings Pointe Rd, just off King Road in Sylvania Township. Call us at (419) 578-6000 and we'll set up a time to meet with you. We have a very hard job and it is easy to criticize. I wish we could make everyone happy but no public service agency ever can. One more point. Of the 5,590 complaints we took in 2009, almost 30% (1,666) were against our "dues paying" Accredited Businesses. And as I said earlier, we expel those that don't resolve their complaints. (We threw out two in February.) Dick Eppstein, BBB

So, If I am reading your response correctly, Mr. Eppstein, you do recieve complaints against "professionals" but, because someone at your agency deemed them to be complaints that should go to their licensing board, there is never a notation that a complaint actually did come in. Therefore, when you give your grades out, they get sterling marks? You are kidding, right? Unfortunately, complaints that involve living things- whether human or animal, are never just about business practices. Typically, if a pet dies under what an owner may believe is the fault of the vet, it is precisely because that owner felt that vet did something wrong- either giving wrong meds, promising care that was not delivered, etc., etc. The very fact that these professionals are dealing with life as their business should make each and every complaint justified and it should come under your "strict" business practice limitations.
Now, I understand that you and your staff are unable to make the determination if the doc or vet was incompetent or worse. You just are not qualified to do that. BUT, there should be some notation at the BBB that a complaint did come in and "the caller was directed to such and such board." That way, other consumers would see that a complaint was received but the BBB was unable to make that determination. It would give would be consumers a "heads up" that there may be an issue.
As for the BBB being unable to get the results from aboard- that info. is public information. Anyone can get it! If a simple notation on the BBB site says someone was reffered to their licensing board, at least the prospective consumer can place a call to that board to follow up and find out the determination of that board concerning that complaint. To simply deny noting the complaint does nothing to help people looking to use the services of that professional. So, I guess the warning to those looking for info on one of these professionals is to not TRUST the grade that the BBB has given because, even though people may have complained, the BBB has decided that the complaint just did not fit into its "strict" guidelines and, therefore, the BBB's grades and "no complaints received" notations mean absolutely nothing.

OK, I guess I need to get into yet more detail. Every agency - Attorney General, Bar Association, Academy of Medicine, Dental Board - have provisions of confidentiality. If a doctor is accused of malpractice and the Academy reviews the claim, its findings are not public record. If the AG is investigating a business for fraud, this fact is confidential until they file a lawsuit - perhaps a year or more later. And many allegations against professionals, either those we receive or the ones we send to the licensing professionals, turn out to have no merit. Often the vet (in this case) sends us an exhaustive refutation of the customer's charges. These rebuttals can be pages long and discuss disease characteristics, proper treatment regimens, medications prescribed and specific errors made by the pet's owner in their complaint letters. This is why, you recall, I noted that our staff agonizes over such complaints. We do receive them but they are so disputed that we must rely on professional peer review systems to sort out the facts. Just as important, we watch for patterns. When reaching a definitive conclusion is impossible (most such complaints end up as "he said, she said") then every - every - every - agency looks to see if other victims come forward to report the same problems. You will note that when a government agency announces it is filing suit against a business, it always has a large number of victims. This is essential in the absence of irrefutable proof...which we almost never receive. Announcing to the world that we have received a complaint against a dentist and forwarded it to the Dental Board is highly inflammatory. If a consumer made a specious complaint or just lied (we get them!) and we reported this to the world, we might be liable for lost business due to our unsubstantiated report. The BBB never reports complaints on any business until we close them out for exactly this reason. But we certainly do work behind the scenes if we see evidence (especially a pattern) that a vet may be acting unethically. Again, handling such cases is hard, and our procedures have been developed over the years to give maximum information to inquirers when we can determine its accuracy. We also know that even the best professionals (or their employees) do make mistakes. My wife and I have spent a fortune on vet treatments for our Shelties, and I am sure that some of the diagnoses over the years might have been wrong and some treatments (by two different vets) ultimately unnecessary. Ditto my dentist, and my attorney. The BBB will certainly warn the public if we see a pattern or wrongdoing, but we can't possibly damage the reputation of hard working architects, or lawyers, or car dealers - because someone made unsubstantiated charges against them. We need proof! Such as, for example, bikerdude, who has never sent me any information supporting his terrible allegations against the BBB in the beginning of this blog. What car repair shop was he complaining about? Who at my office did he talk to? Where are the pictures he claims to have? Copies of the letters he claims to have written me? I have only unsubstantiated allegations that could damage our agency's reputation, yet they are broadcast all over the internet. If someone did that to you, would you think it fair? Dick Eppstein, BBB

Dick, I'm sorry, but if you aren't aware that your employees refuse to let the public talk to you, you are out of touch. I don't know how many employees you have there, but when I called, it sounded like there were two women - one I spoke to, and one I heard in the background. The woman I spoke to, as I have already stated, was incredibly rude and wanted to debate me at every turn. As I said before, I asked to speak to another customer service rep, and she angrily put down the phone, which I had assumed meant she was getting the other service rep. But then she got back on the phone doing a very bad job of disguising her voice. It was clear to me it was the same woman, and I called her on it. That's when "psycho-chick" really went off on me. I asked her if I could speak to you. She said you weren't in. I asked if you had voice mail. She said yes, but she would not let me leave a message. I was so polite to this woman, but I'm sure I spoke way too long to her because I was starting to get pissed off. I have a very long fuse. Frustrated, I finally hung up. One of my colleagues then called on my behalf because she thought I was too nice and not firm enough. She, too, was treated like garbage by the same woman. The woman only relented and let my colleague leave a message on your voice mail after my colleague threatened to go to the media. And Dick, you NEVER called my colleague back.

As to my botched car repair at the dealership, the general manager's secretary was kind enough to agree that what happened to my car was wrong. I had to deal with her because the general manager also refused to return my messages. His secretary was very understanding, though, and she eventually got the manager to agree to give me a partial refund. It was enough so that I could get my car fixed at another repair shop. The manager wanted me to get it repaired at the dealership, but no way. He wanted to charge me three times the amount of the partial refund. Fortunately, I was able get my car fixed at another shop that had much more reasonable rates.

Dick, as you can see on this thread, there are other people who have had problems with your agency. It is not just me. Perhaps you could hold some meetings at different locations in northwest Ohio to get feedback from the public about how you can improve the BBB. Peace.

Sure my staff screens complaints. They have to for many reasons. First, I'm the "guy on TV" and everyone wants to talk to me. But we have a staff of complaint handlers who specialize in cases, while I am often out of the office and can't get back to calls for days. (Last week I was at a week-long BBB conference in Phoenix, did a radio program in Findlay, yesterday I spoke in Bryan and this is being written from my hotel room in Columbus attending an Attorney General conference.) Our staff ends up with the complaints and they usually do an excellent job. We also have a Complaint Supervisor, Kathy, and our Director of Operations is Jean. These are the first people to complain to if you feel we have been unfair or rude. However I do spend considerable time talking to consumers about their problems. Just recently I was on the phone several times over a two week period with a gentleman complaining about negligent handling of his old boat at a Port Clinton marina. But I must rely on a truly dedicated staff to handle the casework; my involvement can often screw things up. You have my email address; I don't recall any voicemails I haven't returned, but you didn't say how long ago was your problem. As I requested before, please email me directly and give me the details on who, what, when, where & why. I'll try and discover what happened. We do NOT treat people like you described and I want to get to the bottom of this. As you can see from these painfully long responses, the BBB is not some faceless bureaucracy. We are an office staffed with real people and we take our jobs seriously. I am out in the community every day; on the Board of the Scott High Alumni Association, the City of Toledo Board of Control, and doing constant speeches throughout our 18 counties. My wife will testify that she basically had to raise our sons because I was never home. I don't deny that you may have received poor treatment from someone on our staff, but often there is much more to the complaint as I explained above. I need details, not just generalizations. Email me at dickep@toledobbb.org. OK? Dick Eppstein, BBB

Sure my staff screens complaints. They have to for many reasons. First, I'm the "guy on TV" and everyone wants to talk to me. But we have a staff of complaint handlers who specialize in cases, while I am often out of the office and can't get back to calls for days. (Last week I was at a week-long BBB conference in Phoenix, did a radio program in Findlay, yesterday I spoke in Bryan and this is being written from my hotel room in Columbus attending an Attorney General conference.) Our staff ends up with the complaints and they usually do an excellent job. We also have a Complaint Supervisor, Kathy, and our Director of Operations is Jean. These are the first people to complain to if you feel we have been unfair or rude. However I do spend considerable time talking to consumers about their problems. Just recently I was on the phone several times over a two week period with a gentleman complaining about negligent handling of his old boat at a Port Clinton marina. But I must rely on a truly dedicated staff to handle the casework; my involvement can often screw things up. You have my email address; I don't recall any voicemails I haven't returned, but you didn't say how long ago was your problem. As I requested before, please email me directly and give me the details on who, what, when, where & why. I'll try and discover what happened. We do NOT treat people like you described and I want to get to the bottom of this. As you can see from these painfully long responses, the BBB is not some faceless bureaucracy. We are an office staffed with real people and we take our jobs seriously. I am out in the community every day; on the Board of the Scott High Alumni Association, the City of Toledo Board of Control, and doing constant speeches throughout our 18 counties. My wife will testify that she basically had to raise our sons because I was never home. I don't deny that you may have received poor treatment from someone on our staff, but often there is much more to the complaint as I explained above. I need details, not just generalizations. Email me at dickep@toledobbb.org. OK? Dick Eppstein, BBB

Can I just say that I think it's really nice that Mr. Eppstien was willing to get on this website, address the complaint, and offer his email out for the person with the issue to contact.

Pretty sure that deserves a small thank you, regardless of this issue and how it may turn out.

Yes, Mesmerix, it is nice that Mr. Eppstein is willing to debate the issues some have had with the BBB. Hopefully, he now takes the complaints and suggestions offered here and makes the agency even better.
My problem is that some "professionals" are protected in that the agency refuses to note that a complaint came in on that professional and that the caller was told to go the licensing agency with the complaint. IF the BBB is unable to substantiate the complaint because it rightfully does not have the expertise to decide if that professional is incompetent or not (I do not exepect people at the BBB to be jacks of all trades)they should at least have a notation in the file that someone did call and they were sent to the proper licensing board. The exasperating part is that the BBB does not want to damage the reputation of that professional on one hand- stating that some of the cases may or may not have merit- which, according to its own guidelines- the BBB should not even make that kind of decision. NO ONE wants to see a professional's reputation damaged but NO ONE wants to unwittingly go to a professional who may have had complaints that aren't noted and find out the complaints were justified either.
I do not believe that a simple notation equalls damage to a professional. AND, again, those reports are public information. Let the consumer make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to go to that person. I, for one, went to the Ohio Veterinary Licensing Board (called them) and found out about a complaint that was filed against a Sylvania Vet. The OVLB not only described the complaint and offered to mail it to me, they also gave me the outcome- what the OVLB and its professionals decided concerning the complaint.That information made me a more informed consumer which we should all be!
There are too many stories of Docs who have had complaints filed and they simply went to another state to practice only to have more complaints filed- unfortunately they do not get caught until something horrible happens. Why? Because the board(s) simply do not transfer that info to the state where the doc resides. IF consumers were at least told, through a widely trusted organization like the BBB, that a complaint did come in and that person was told to follow up with the professional board, how is someone going to find that info out?
Why can't the BBB trust that the consumer can make their own decision and that the simple notation would not necessarily, in itself, damage the professionals' rep?
The BBB'smain job is to offer consumers information, good or bad, in order to allow the consumer to make a well informed decision. That is why the BBB plaque, hung proudly in a professional's office has, traditionally, been the "Seal of Approval."
IF the BBB cannot do that, then maybe the BBB should not allow the professionals (architects, docs, vets, lawyers, etc.) to be members. To grade these professionals and allow notations of "no complaints received) is just plain false. It does nothing to help the consumer make an informed decision!

On a morepersonal note, I too have shelties- have had one in my life since day one (47 years) and I, for one, want to know about a vet before I take one of my furbabies to them! It is my job to protect them and without vital information, how am I to do that?

Capitalizing certain words doesn't get your point across any differently. I understand the reasoning behind it and trying to add emphasis.

But honestly, it's quite ANNOYING.

:o)

Seriously folks, if you have a problem with the BBB, Mr. Eppstein as provided you with the appropriate contact information. By all means, email him to discuss the problem.

I understand it's a message board and forum with the purpose to generate productive discussions. I also understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But in my opinion (and not necessarily on this specific topic), some people are here strictly to "troll" around and make people mad and cause problems.

But to come here and bash businesses and people is a little childish. Whatever happened to discussing your problems and concerns with those directly involved? Instead, people hide behind their user names and computer monitors.

End of rant.

Golddust,

I also think Mr. Eppstein explained that they cannot put anything in quotations because of liability issues. I hear about people all the time filing false reports just because something didn't go their way.

My dad's had it done to his business personally just because he wouldn't do something that was against building codes and could have cost him his builders license.

What happens if these claims are false(not saying anyone's here are) and they put a quotation and it causes them to lose business. They can then go after whom ever caused them to lose business.

I am not asking the BBB to quote what the complaint or accusation was. I am asking that they be an actual advocate for the consumer. Simply stating that a complaint did come in and the caller was referred to the licensing board allows me, the consumer, to follow up on it. I then am allowed to make the decision based on what I hear from the board.
There may be some people out there that think the simple notation is immediately damning to that professional but, damn, give some of us credit in that we will seek out our own info and make our own decision.
It is just pure logic. If the BBB cannot do that then maybe those professionals who could be damaged by the mere notation should not be allowed to be dues paying members who are given A grades even though some may have had a complaint that did not get noted because of an arbitrary hard and fast rule of the BBB.
And, to answer wahhutch9: Before reading this thread, did you know about the BBB's rule concerning reporting on vets, docs, lawyers, architects, etc.? Probably not. Hopefully, people have learned something from it. Mr. Eppstein was aksed about this same issue a couple of years ago and it was quoted in a local suburban paper. If I would have just discussed this with Mr. Eppstein, in private, the info would not be available to you or anyone else.
I argue that this board is for that purpose, to inform people and to get them thinking. I am not attacking the BBB as a whole, it has a very important purpose and has served the community well in many cases. I appreciate the warnings and information given by Mr. Eppstein. That helps me be a more informed consumer. I am only taking issue with one area of the BBB and I am hoping that a change can come about.

You are correct, I did not know prior to this topic.

And I also don't disagree with you that it would be nice if there was some indication on the BBB website if a complaint was forwarded to the State Licensing Board for that particular profession. Unfortunately, in my opinion, that would likely be abused by people with an "axe to grind." I truly do see the benefit.

My question is... if they began indicating these complaints on their website, how many people would truly follow-up? I can honestly say that I wouldn't.

And then factor in the additional time, effort, and costs incurred by the BBB for implementing something like this. I don't know how much extra work would be involved, but I'm guessing we can all agree that there would be additional work.

Maybe they raise their annual dues to companies to make up for the additional "man hours" needed. Then some companies decide not to renew.

Also, do we know if the local BBB organization can implement such a change without approval from the "parent company"?

You are right. I have no clue if they can implement that change without going through the national organization. Only Mr. Eppstein can tell us that.
I know this sounds like a personal "pet peeve" and maybe it is but I would like to think that more people are now made aware of this policy.
Another suggestion might be to put these "special" professions into a separate category with a disclaimer that would read something like "The BBB is unable to process complaints concerning allegations of malpractice, serious professional errors or incompetence. Please feel free to contact the appropriate licensing board for more information.
That way, no one's reputation is being harmed.
The BBB can then offer a letter grade and "no complaint" status with a disclaimer reading: "The following grades are given due to complaints on billing errors, false advertising, poor customer service, etc."
That way, everybody is informed on the rules. I would not think that that would be such a hard thing to accomplish.
Heck, until Mr. Eppstein responded, I did not know there was a licensing board for architects.

A smart consumer does their own homework. Why would you trust a company just because they haven’t had complaints with the BBB? Sure, it’s a start – but nothing beats UNBIASED personal accounts by real people. There are too many people that complain over petty things or complain just to complain because their car broke down after it was fixed 5 years ago, etc.

"Another suggestion might be to put these "special" professions into a separate category with a disclaimer that would read something like "The BBB is unable to process complaints concerning allegations of malpractice, serious professional errors or incompetence. Please feel free to contact the appropriate licensing board for more information."

That seems fair. At least the public would know, when looking up a doctor, veterinarian, lawyer, that the BBB may have received complaints against them, but they were forwarded to the proper licensing agency. For the BBB to give these professions A+ grades and state on the BBB website that there have been no complaints filed against them, when there may have been, is very misleading. I don't think it would take much to make this change. It is much more honest. Will you do that, Mr. Eppstein?

Ryan: I totally agree with you. A smart consumer should never assume that the info on the BBB website is all there is. But, at least starting with the BBB is doing some research. How many times have you read stories about people being scammed by companies or non-profits, or thieves trying to get bank info.? Then, when they go to complain to the BBB- surprise, surprise... The agency had already had notations or warned consumers about the companies, non-profits and thieves. The BBB is not gospel but it is a good place to start.

"A smart consumer should never assume that the info on the BBB website is all there is."

There are other Web sites that rate veterinarians' servivces. They have really grown in number over the years. I would also check with the Ohio Veterinary Medical Licensing Board to see how many complaints have been filed against a veterinarian. If more than one or two in a three year period, I would want to know what those complaints are about. The complaints are public record.

"Complaints on billing errors, rudeness, false advertising, etc. are fine."

Dick, I don’t know how you can say that. I included this in my complaint against this vet, but your letter stated, "Sorry, we don't process complaints against veterinarians."

"But many complaints we receive against professionals involve allegations of malpractice, serious professional errors or even incompetence. In such cases, the proper action is to refer these cases to their own licensing boards or peer review groups for investigation."

I don't think I need a licensing board to tell me if it was wrong of this veterinarian to give my dog a drug I specifically told him not to give her because she had a severe reaction to it and nearly died the last time she got it, but this vet injected her with it anyway. When I complained, he shrugged and said, "I forgot," as if he were casually ordering from a restaurant menu. That is not a licensing board issue. That is plain sloppiness and poor customer service. The BBB should have processed this as a valid complaint. I also complained about false advertising, billing errors, and rudeness, as I said at the top of my post, but when I called the BBB to ask if that part of the complaint would be processed, I was told no because those issues were also board issues. Obviously, they are not. Finally, I was never contacted by this veterinarian or his staff when my dog's condition deteriorated while she was there overnight. When I later got my dog's records, I saw that her condition was critical as she struggled to breathe over five hours before she died there. But nobody cared enough to call me so I could be there with my best friend to comfort her so she wouldn’t die alone on a cold floor in a strange place. Is that alright with you, Dick? Should other pet owners in the community have the opportunity to read a complaint about a vet who never contacted a pet owner while their pet lay dying, unbeknownst to the pet owner, for several hours? Is that a board issue too, Dick? Most pet owners I know want to be with their pets when they die. It is not a medical, or board issue. It is common sense. It is common decency. I would never, ever consider taking a pet to a vet who had failed over a period of several hours to contact a pet owner about their pet's deteriorating condition!

The law in Ohio considers pets personal property, as in many states, but if my dog had been a damaged piece of furniture, Dick, you would have processed the complaint (or maybe not, considering what happened to OP). Pet owners consider their pets members of the family. They are not replaceable! You are supposed to be protecting consumers, or at least processing complaints they have against local businesses and professionals, and – yes – that means veterinarians.

Well, I was with my last sheltie when we were forced to put him to sleep, and it was one of the great traumas of our family's life. He was our "child" for 12 years and we spent a fortune trying to save him. You are absolutely correct that the conduct you describe would outrage anyone. But I recall your complaint; you and I discussed it back when it happened. You took your dog in to the Vet on October 19, 2005. Our BBB notes on this dispute are huge; our staff specialist had several conversations with the Vet who insisted to us that his treatment was appropriate and that he asked you to file your complaint with the State Veterinary Board because he was sure they would "clear his name" (his words.) The issue was administering improper medications and negligence; clearly the responsibility of licensed professionals. Our people took it very, very seriously and worked very hard; but the vet completely disagreed with your views and insisted that his people were not negligent. Can we call him a liar? Can we say that you are? Of course not! We were in the middle and had no option but to conclude that we needed Columbus to decide if the Vet's conduct constituted malpractice. Perhaps these days the licensing boards are more transparent, but I can tell you that in 2005 it was impossible to pry out from them the outcome of their deliberations. However consider this; if the BBB said, "We advised one consumer to file her complaint against this Vet with the State Vet Board (etc.)" it would have a chilling effect on that vet's business. If Columbus then came back and told us that they disagreed with the your allegations of negligence (which can always happen), then the BBB would have no way to defend ourselves. Allegations are not proof; that's why we have trials to decide what really happened. Our notice should only be posted after a decision had been reached, and I don't believe we ever learned of the outcome of that very sad, heart-rending complaint. We needed an outcome and, since it wasn't obtainable, I think our staffer finally closed it out about a year later. I might also mention that this Vet office has a large practice (with several doctors), and we have never received another complaint of neglegence such as you told us you had experienced since then. Believe me, we watched to see if other reports came in back then and still do. Perhaps your experience resulted in their improving their practices. I hope so.

I'm still not over losing my poor sheltie and I'm sure you miss your pooch as well.

Now, let me update you all on the "BBB wording" issue. One response I avoided in my earlier messages about BBB language was, "this is policy". I avoided it because I hate that "explanation" and refuse to accept it when given to me by a bureaucrat trying to justify doing a dumb thing. But some earlier comments understood that we are not entirely free to devise new reporting language. There are over 120 BBBs in North America, and we are not all free to devise our own reporting language whenever we want. However, I was in Columbus at the Ohio AG's conference earlier today and had the rare chance to raise this issue with one of the BBB presidents who is on the very committee handling such reporting language issues(!) He told me that language almost identical to that proposed by renegade (above) has been devised by the committee and may be available to the whole BBB system soon. This will help avoid misunderstandings.

We have never claimed that a BBB report was a 100% guarantee of anything. We are limited by the experiences consumers decide to report to us. Others may have terrible problems - with remodelers, car repair shops, plumbers, whatever. We are careful to explain to consumers that the BBB report is simply one source of information which they can use to make their buying decision. And it is also true that we often get calls from victims who have been ripped off. They tell us their sad tale, only to discover that the company they hired already has a BBB grade of "F"! I'd like to have a nickel for each consumer who admitted that they hadn't checked with us before hiring that crook but said, "Next time I'll call you first!" Imagine how frustrating that is for our staff.
Dick Eppstein, BBB

Dick, I appreciate your response, but that does not look like my case. You and I never spoke. In addition, I never filed a complaint with the state licensing board. I wish I had, but I was too caught up in my grief, and the fact that the vet treated me like dirt, which made my grief even worse. That said, I had ample proof, including detailed records, that showed my dog was not supposed to get this drug. I agree that would have been a board decision to determine if it caused her death, but the fact this vet knew I did not want my dog to get this drug, and gave it to her anyway because he said he "forgot" she wasn't supposed to get it, is a valid complaint. He acknowledged it verbally and in a letter. He was sloppy. Secondly, the fact that this vet failed for hours to contact me regarding my dog's deteriorating condition until she died was also a serious flaw in customer service that I think the BBB should have processed as part of my complaint.

"You are absolutely correct that the conduct you describe would outrage anyone."

Thank you for acknowledging that. Perhaps you would consider such conduct as a valid complaint for the BBB to process should it happen to someone else. That has to do with customer service. I agree with you that all things medical should be forwarded to the OVMLB.

"if the BBB said, `We advised one consumer to file her complaint against this Vet with the State Vet Board (etc.' it would have a chilling effect on that vet's business."

Dick, I don't think you give consumers enough credit to judge for themselves whether they want to do business with a veterinarian based on just one complaint. The BBB is just one resource I would use when looking for a new veterinarian, etc. I would check with the licensing board, do a Google search of the veterinarian, and ask around. All those things would come into play. I would also want to know how this vet responded to the customer's concerns. Angie's List processes complaints against veterinarians, and allows veterinarians to respond. I like that.

I'm not looking for perfection, by any means. I understand mistakes are made. But when a consumer has a series of valid complaints regarding rudeness, poor customer service, billing for services that weren't provided, false advertising and dishonesty, for which there is proof, and the veterinarian fails to address these issues with the consumer, I think the BBB should process the complaint.

"He told me that language almost identical to that proposed by renegade (above) has been devised by the committee and may be available to the whole BBB system soon. This will help avoid misunderstandings."

Dick, are you referring to this: "Another suggestion might be to put these "special" professions into a separate category with a disclaimer that would read something like "The BBB is unable to process complaints concerning allegations of malpractice, serious professional errors or incompetence. Please feel free to contact the appropriate licensing board for more information. The BBB can then offer a letter grade and "no complaint" status with a disclaimer reading: "The following grades are given due to complaints on billing errors, false advertising, poor customer service, etc. That way, everybody is informed on the rules."

The above were actually comments from golddustwoman that I had copied and pasted in my post. But if that is what you're referring to, that would be great if you could put that on the BBB Web site. It would clear things up and be less confusing. And I know pet owners would appreciate it.

"I'm still not over losing my poor sheltie and I'm sure you miss your pooch as well."

Dick, I'm sorry to hear about your dog. I hear shelties are great companions. I know people who have had shelties their whole lives and wouldn't have any other. Mine was just a mutt, but I loved her just the same. It's been a while, but it still hurts, mostly because I wasn't with her at the end.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this.

Thank you Mr. Eppstein for taking the time to discuss this issue in a public forum. It says a lot about your agency and you to come back time after time and discuss this with us. Like I said in earlier posts, many people did not know about this policy and now they do.
The mere fact that someone in Columbus was actually drafting similar language as to language I proposed is very comforting. It means that I am not the only "troll" out there that has had an issue with the policy and the lack of public information concerning the policy.
To put that policy on your website- clearly stating that certain complaints against certain professions are not accepted by the BBB and that more information on these professionals may be had by contacting their respective licensing boards goes a long way in levelling the playing field for consumers.
Consumers going to the BBB to check on the records of vets, docs, lawyers, architects, etc. do not go their to see if they give good customer service or if their billing is correct. People are looking to see if a lawyer has been caught stealing from an estate, if a doc has been accused of making a grave error, or if a vet screwed up. To simply have a grade of "A" with a notation stating "no complaints" may tell the unsuspecting consumer that that person is a great doc, vet, lawyer or architect. We now understand that the grade given for these professionals has less to do with their professionalism and more to do with their billing departments and those who give customer service.
A general disclaimer concerning these professions should in no way hurt or damage their reputations and it puts the information in front of the consumer. It would then be up to them to follow through, call the licensing boards, if they so choose.
Mr. Eppstein, could you please let us know when the disclaimer will be put on the BBB website?
As to Renagade: OMG! My heart aches for you. It really does. I am in tears over here. How horrible that you and your pet were treated in such a callous way. Trust me, if my vet had given my sheltie a drug it was not supposed to have and did not inform me that things were not going well, I would be just like you. Hopefully, your vet has learned and has made some changes.
I can tell you that when my male sheltie died several years ago, I was lucky to have been there and have him in my arms. I took him to the vet because I thought he had a cracker stuck in his throat because he was coughing badly( we used to shae cheese and crackers at night.). I took him to my vet and $400 and some dollars later- which included a chest x-ray which revealed he had congestive heart failure, and many meds- he ended up having a massive heart attack two hours later. The vet assistant (bless her soul) stayed on the phone with me as I had a panic attack and cried uncontrolably as my dog took his last breath. The vet called me a little later expressing his sympathy and he again called the very next day to see how I was doing. I received a beautiful card a couple of days later. They were wonderful and I really do wish that you would have received the same heartfelt treatment. I am so sorry for your loss.
Mr. Eppstein: I sure hope that you have another sheltie in your life. It took me five years but I now have a 1 and a half year old male who has brought back the joy in my life! There are many rescues out there that need great homes- look on petfinder.com.
Mr. Eppstein, again, thank you so much for taking the time and for considering adding language which would clarify this issue! It means a lot!

Well, just wrapping this up, I will report that my wife and I did get another sheltie after losing the last one. He is great and takes care of her when I am on the road...which is often. One final (I hope) observation. During and after my speeches I often talk to employees of professionals; doctors, dentists, lawyers, vets, etc. Almost without exception, they tell me how hard their doctor/lawyer works to take care of patients or clients. They are very proud of their doctor or lawyer and often describe (very generally, of course) a particularly difficult situation where their doc worked way beyond what might be expected to help the patient or client. A personal note; many years ago my wife had an agonizing toothache on Christmas Day! She was in so much pain that I called our dentist at his home, and he came in and opened up his office (just himself) to clean out her absessed tooth and relieve her pain. He didn't make a big deal; he just came in and relieved suffering, then went back home to his wife and kids on Christmas. Employees of these professionals tell me that they are all aware of a few bad guys in their professions, and these scumbags hurt the reputations of all doctors/lawyers, but most are hard working, dedicated men and women who just want to help their clients/patients. We in the BBB are no different than anyone else. We want the quacks and shysters driven out of their professions and, if it were possible, into a nice, cool jail cell. But we also have a place on our web site where consumers can file compliments! And some of the warm stories we receive are truly uplifting about car repair shops, remodelers and, of course, professionals. I know dedicated service doesn't make ratings or sell newspapers, but it happens every day and, as Linda Loman says in Death of a Salesman, "attention must be paid."
Dick Eppstein, BBB

Nicely stated Mr. Eppstein.

It is very interesting that people can post nice things about vets and other professionals but not bad experiences... That is an issue.
Mr. Eppstein: Will you advise us when the new disclaimer is up on the website?

"but most are hard working, dedicated men and women who just want to help their clients/patients."

I agree with you and can say that about most professions.

"We want the quacks and shysters driven out of their professions and, if it were possible, into a nice, cool jail cell."

Thanks for your passion for justice. I'm sure some ended up getting run out of town because of the BBB.

There are some, however, who aren't quacks or shysters, but still harmed someone either through lousy customer service, overbilling, etc., that should be part of their profile on the BBB's Web site.

"Will you advise us when the new disclaimer is up on the website?"

We would be very grateful for that. Thanks again for enlightening us.

Renegade, you have my heartfelt condolences on the death of your dog and that it died alone. My family was also left in the dark about our dog who died at the vet's office. We never were told about her condition taking a turn for the worse. We told the vet we wanted to know if her condition got worse, and gave him our home number and office numbers. We were furious when a vet tech called us hours later to tell us that our dog had been in critical condition for hours and that she had just died. We called the BBB to complain about this, which is a customer service complaint, as Renegade said, NOT a medical complaint. We were told by the BBB lady that they would not accept the complaint because it was medical in nature. That is not fair. I think you're being disengenuous when you say, Mr. Epstein, that the BBB will accept non medical complaints because that was not true for my family.

"Well, I was with my last sheltie when we were forced to put him to sleep, and it was one of the great traumas of our family's life. He was our "child" for 12 years and we spent a fortune trying to save him. You are absolutely correct that the conduct you describe would outrage anyone."

I am pleased you find it an "outrage" that a vet would not call a pet owner when their pet becomes critically ill, Mr. Epstein. I am glad you were able to be with your dog when that happened. I am sure you and your family were relieved. I find it rare when a vet has not called a pet owner to tell them their pet is in very bad shape. I can honestly say I have never heard of a case like ours before other than Renegade's. How insensitive of any vet not to notify a pet owner when their pet is dying to give them the chance to be with them. The BBB should have accepted the complaint.

I am also pleased you are going to consider a disclaimer to post on your website so that people are aware that ratings given to vets are based on non-medical complaints. It would be even better to define what non-medical complaints are as opposed to mere customer service complaints.

Also, Renegade and Golddustwoman have asked you to please update them when you will be posting the disclaimer, but you haven't responded. I will be the third person to ask politely if you would please notify this board when the disclaimer has been posted. Thank you.

Will you people relax? Mr. Eppstein has stated why the things are the way they are and you can't let it go. Do you think he has the magic wand and the last say at the end of the day? He was nice enough to spend time here explaining things and yet you continue to badger him with your "requests". Move on already and do your own homework. He has made it clear why the BBB is set up the way it is.

I believe, Ryan, that we are asking for an update. Yes, he spent some time on this board and we do appreciate it. We are just requesting that he come back on this board when he has an update on the disclaimer. Why don't you relax? You really just seem to be a troll with nothing better to do than contradict everything anyone has to say. Can't you just move on to one of the many threads on here and say something equally ignorant? Some of us find BBB policy to be important.

Believe it or not GDW - it's not about YOU!
Who do you think you are that you can tell people how to run their business?
I am so sick of the "poor me" generation.
Update that!

And heres an update on your disclaimer:

NOT!!!

I'm surprised people would expect ongoing public dialog from ANY business owner... BBB or otherwise.. we're lucky to get a post or two from the business owners in question. If people don't respond.. take it to email & phone calls people!

Here is my take on this after reading all the comments and why this thread keeps popping up:

The BBB was called out by me for failing to assist me in my complaint, which was eventually resolved outside the BBB. Other people on the board then shared their experiences, both good and bad, with the agency. Dick then came on the board to respond to some of the comments. Golddustwoman and others asked Dick why some professions, namely veterinarians, are members and use the BBB logo in their advertising and promotions, when the public is turned away by the BBB from submitting complaints about these professionals. Things heated up when Dick said, "Complaints on billing errors, rudeness, false advertising, etc. are fine." Then Renegade and Gemini allege this is false because they had submitted complaints of a "non-medical" nature to the BBB against vets regarding piss poor customer service. Dick has not explained why this is. I appreciate Dick has come on this board to respond, but I think they deserve a response since Dick claimed that non-medical issues are processed by the BBB.

"Our problem is that we never can obtain the results of the investigations - so we are forced to wait like everyone else for the story in the newspaper."

This statement by Dick was easy to check out, which I did because golddustwoman was so adamant that Dick was wrong. I have butted heads with golddustwoman before, so I called the Ohio Veterinary Medical Licensing Board this week. Dick, you are wrong and golddustwoman is right. Complaints submitted to the Ohio Veterinary Medical Licensing Board are public record, regardless of whether discipline is imposed. Thank you to the OVMLB for their patient explanation of this to me. I don't know why Dick said he has tried unsucessfully to get information from the board regarding complaints against vets. I thought it may have been a recent OVMLB policy, and that Dick was unaware that it was changed, but the OVMLB said complaints have always been public record.

"I was in Columbus at the Ohio AG's conference earlier today and had the rare chance to raise this issue with one of the BBB presidents who is on the very committee handling such reporting language issues(!) He told me that language almost identical to that proposed by renegade (above) has been devised by the committee and may be available to the whole BBB system soon. This will help avoid misunderstandings."

Dick made a statement, and Renegade, golddustwoman and gemini have politely asked Dick if he would update them on when this new language would be part of the local BBB chapter's Web site. I think they are just very passionate about their pets and feel this could help other pet owners avoid similar fates.

Renegade, if that had been my dog, I would have popped the vet in the nose. What happened to you was wrong. In another post, I told the board about a stray cat I had taken care of for a few weeks that had to be put down because it had FIV. It was important to me, even though it was just a stray, that I be with it, hold it and stroke its head, while the vet injected it with the death meds, because I had already bonded with the cat and wanted to comfort it in its final moments. I presume you had your dog longer than a few weeks, Renegade, and that you likely considered it a member of your family. Your pain must have been devastating. I give you, golddustwoman, and gemini credit for trying to make changes for pet owners' benefit. These changes are not radical, but something Dick has hinted would be made at the BBB. If Dick doesn't respond about the disclaimer, then his words ring hollow. In the meantime, I urge you to tell friends, relatives, associates, acquaintances - everyone you can about what the vet did to you. These type of complaints against veterinarians and doctors have legs. I have a friend who is a nurse, and when I have to go to a new doctor, I ask her if she knows if the doctor is good. She always replies, "I haven't heard anything bad. I only remember the bad ones." There you go.

"Will you people relax? Mr. Eppstein has stated why the things are the way they are and you can't let it go."

Maybe because Dick has some holes in his explanations, Ryan.

"And heres an update on your disclaimer:

NOT!!!"

Ryan, you have said on this messageboard you are a dog lover, always urging people to adopt - a noble request. But your lack of sensitivity to people who suffered because they could not be with their dogs when they died due to a veterinarian's failure to contact them, is surprising. I hope like hell I never lose a pet that way, and I hope you don't, either. Nobody is forcing you to visit this thread. If you don't like it, then, as you say, move on. Geesh!

Thanks Bikerdude. I am glad you took the time to investigate and get your own information.
To Ryan: Guess what..It is about ME, and you, and every other consumer who uses the BBB to check out businesses, lawyers, docs and vets! The BBB policy concerning these "professionals", as Eppstein put it, is wrong. I get that the BBB cannot make certain decisions on these "professionals" but to allow them to be members, to be graded, and to say that "no complaints have been received" is wrong and fankly hinging on fraud- the BBB collects dues from these "professionals" but by not clearly indicating to the general public that they cannot accept certain complaints and then giving these "professionals" A grades is beyond bullshit.
As for upso: Mr. Eppstein came on this board because he heard there were negative things being said about his organization. The best part was when he said he could not take calls cause he was the "guy on tv." Really? He heads the BBB and I expect even a tv personality to answer questions for his bureaucratic organization. That is what he is paid to do- not just show up on tv, but to answer the public's questions and to insure the public is protected against fraud.
Eppstein stated that others were having the same issue in Columbus with the policy and were possibly drafting policy close to the disclaimer I suggested. All I am asking for is that he take another few minutes out of his time to just say he will keep us updated as to when that disclaimer will appear on the local website. I do not expect it to happen yesterday but, I do expect it to happen given that there are issues with it outside of Toledo. To not answer our requests feels like backsliding to me. In order to affect change, sometimes you have to keep these people, politicians included, feet to the fire.
What we are requesting is a very small change that would enlighten the general public when they go to the BBB website about BBB policy!

OK, OK. So on March 6th I finished what I thought was a thorough response to the questions thrown at us and hoped it had cleared things up. These responses are very time consuming and I am deeply immersed in budget issues, heated national BBB policy disputes and local investigations of several bad companies. We just unveiled a massive ethics program; best in North America, that took our Foundation four years to create. We are a few weeks away from another unveiling of another major program that will be unique in America. In my opinion it will save thousands of dollars for local consumers - and make me a whole new bunch of business enemies. Two days ago our BBB leadership met for several hours with law enforcement officers from all over NW Ohio and SE Michigan to review progress of investigations on door-to-door remodeling crooks (back in the area) and promoters of get rich schemes in our area. Monday I met with Attorney General Cordray and spent all afternoon at a BBB booth at the Toledo Public Library...after which I went to an evening speech. This weekend our tiny staff will be manning a booth at the Home Improvement & Garden Show, just as they did a couple weeks ago at the Home Builders Show at Seagate Center. We are maxed out. Finally I come back to this blog and discover that I'm still a bad guy because I didn't promise to let you folks know when our language will change. OK, I promise. As soon as I get the green light, I'll come back with the news. But please, people. Repeating myself, we are not perfect. If I took every call from every consumer that wanted to speak to "the guy on TV", I could get nothing done! It is terribly inefficient! We have a staff of trained complaint specialists who answer public questions and undertake investigations. They know much more about current cases than I do; I'm involved in management stuff, not casework. Yes, sometimes when I hear how one of our people handled a call I feel like I would have handled the call differently. But our people answer hundreds of calls each day,constantly getting very difficult questions on literally hundreds of subjects. They are cursed because the caller bought a used $500 "as is" car which broke down six months later and the caller demands,"What is the BBB going to do about it!" They patiently explain to callers that they really didn't win the Nigerian Lottery, and to NOT SEND MONEY! They hear about leaking roofs, false car dealer ads, bad builders, TV & appliance store problems, misleading promises from mattress sellers, computer service issues, disputes with funeral directors and phony charities. Yes, I wish sometimes they handled a call differently; but more often I marvel at their patience and professionalism in the face of constant challenges. As I have already explained, we are an open agency and anyone who wishes can come out here and visit and talk to our phone specialists. Our Director of Operations has copied all of these comments and shared them with the entire staff. They take your criticisms very much to heart and have spent much time studying and discussing them. They are constantly listening to your messages.
Dick Eppstein, BBB

I agree the BBB should institute changes and process complaints against veterinarians and other professionals.

Gee Dick why dont you get one of those on your staff to explain the BBB policies then, since your so busy. I feel that any legitimate complaint regardless of class of business should be filed and recorded. As stated by a couple people in this thread, going to the BBB site and seeing "no complaint filed" does not truely reflect the experiences of some people at those businesses. It seems almost like "False" advertising to me. If you cant get a impartial scorecard on people accredited by the local BBB what good is the local BBB. Would Angie's List be a better source for the consumer?

Thanks for responding Mr. Eppstein. I will keep looking at your website for updates to the policy.

Mr. Eppstein, after lurking on this board for awhile, I had to jump in after reading this thread, I don't think anyone is making you out to be the "bad guy". Everyone has shown you respect. Some only asked you if you could give some updates on the changes you said "may be available to the whole BBB system soon".

Ya know, I have to put my 2 cents in on this one...this post has been lurking for days and I just wish it would end. A number of years ago some genius at an oil change place in Toledo put a wrong/faulty, whatever you want to call it oil filter on my car (for an oil change)at a quick lube. The darn thing fell off (the filter) while I was on the xpressway and blew my motor up. The BBB was the most unhelpful thing in this whole process...I sued the quick lube and won my case.

Sorry Dino and others who thought this issue was dead.. BUT.... Just saw a BBB commercial showing how you can use them to get information on "reliable" companies and they list a few of them including a veterinarian. Just ticks me off... Again, to list a vet or other "professional" on the website is crap! How do I know if they are "reliable" or not? The BBB does not take complaints on them!!!!
Again, sorry, but the commercial just set me off, again.

Reviving this thread on account of latest news about the BBB taking payments for better ratings. Can we assume our local branch, with any of the above complaints, is without guilt?

I just finished watching the 20/20 episode. The way it was reported on the show, the "buying an A grade issue" was across the US. I wish they would have taken on the aspect of the BBB allowing DR's and Vets to be "A" graded members when the organization itself does not allow negative comments about those two businesses. I guess I will finish this post and then hop on over to ABC site and put that little bit of knowledge in their ear.

Thanks, linecrosser, for reviving this very important thread on the troubling problems of the Better Business Bureau.

I saw a clip of this investigative report about many BBB chapters across the country by the award winning investigative journalist Brian Ross on ABC World News Tonight with Diane Sawyer Friday night. At the end of the clip, Sawyer said there would be more on the report on 20/20 later Friday night. I encourage everyone to go to the 20/20 website at http://abcnews.go.com/2020 and download Friday night’s episode called “Better Business Bureau Probe,” which calls the BBB’s rating system a fraud, basically.

Here is part of it: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/video/wolfgang-puck-12132380

For the most part, the report showed that many small and large companies across the country accused their local BBB chapters of running a “shakedown racquet” because they would only receive good grades if they paid the BBB. If they didn’t, they got an F. Wolfgang Puck, the famous chef and restaurateur who is chosen to prepare the big gala dinner for the annual Oscar ceremony in Hollywood, did not pay the BBB, and he got an “F” grade as a result. As he said in the piece, “If you have to join an organization to get a good grade, I think it’s wrong.” He called it a “pay for play” scheme.

BINGO! I pretty much guessed as much since earlier this year. Conversely, if you pay the BBB to get a good grade, I would guess that you will probably maintain it NO MATTER WHAT.

Puck also questioned where all the membership fees go. Good question.

Also highlighted in the report was the manager of an antique store who told Ross that a BBB salesperson told her she had to buy a $395 BBB membership to improve her grade from a C to an A. After she paid the BBB via credit card on the phone, with Ross as a witness, her grade went from a C to an A the next day.

Ross also interviews the national president of the BBB, Steve Cox, who defended the organization, saying hundreds of thousands of non-members have received A grades. Bwhahahahahahahahaha. Where have I heard that before?

“BBB accreditation and the BBB ratings are not about generating money,” said Cox. “Not just anyone can be accredited,” he said. But earlier this year, according to 20/20, someone registered the Middle East terrorist group Hamas with the BBB for $450, and the group received an A plus rating by the BBB.

The report also showed that the BBB gave a white racist website an A plus rating after getting paid $450.

The Connecticut attorney general called on the BBB to stop using its nationwide grading system, saying it’s a “deceptive practice” that is potentially harmful and misleading to consumers.

“This rating system is really unworthy of consumer trust or confidence,” he said.

Thank you Brian Ross and 20/20.

From kwi50 - "I find most of these people that runs these type of nonforprofits are making way to much money and hardly do any work, and have great benefits packages and compnay car and credit cards......"

Can you site specific knowledge of anything to back up that claim? You used the word "most". So can you give examples of salaries, perks or detailed "cushy" job descriptions from any named not-for-profit organizations? Otherwise I think you're just ignorant and jealous and someone who likes to jump to conclusions about anyone else's possible successes because you yourself have none.

bikerdude, that's an eye opener if there ever was one. My businesses were all BBB members. (We sold last year.) I can honestly say that we were never shaken down for dues. We did get one customer complaint to the BBB. One of our businesses accepted utility payments. The customer claimed we did not forward her cash payment to the utilty company. This customer did not have a receipt nor could she say specifically what day she made the payment. We made a good faith effort to review our records for the entire month in question and looked at video tapes to see when she had been in to conduct any business at all. Couldn't find a thing. The BBB was satisfied that we had done all we could.

Up until this post I trusted the BBB to be generally honest and working for the consumer. This is a huge blow to any reputable business that thought that BBB membership actually meant something good. If I were still in business I would yank that plaque off the wall and never write another dues check.

Good synopsis of the show Bikerdude. Wolfgang Puck getting an "F" grade. Too freakin funny.
I agree with you Holland. The best part of the shw was when Steve Cox just got up and left the interview. His "assistant" informed him he had to go. Uh Huh....
LIke I said, some of the BBB practices and policies like not letting people comment on docs and vets should be clearly printed on their website. Too many people out there believe any business with an "A" rating and any vet or doc proudly displaying the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" (The BBB Plaque) has never had one complaint. It is misleading at best, fraudelant at its worst.

"Up until this post I trusted the BBB to be generally honest and working for the consumer. This is a huge blow to any reputable business that thought that BBB membership actually meant something good."

I couldn't have said it better, Holland.

golddustwoman, I applaud you for raising the same concerns as Brian Ross about the BBB's rating system and how it was misleading the public in this thread last March.

If one could grade the BBB, I surely would give it an F.

I find it interesting that our local BBB has yet to comment on this thread after the 20/20 show. I am also waiting to see if the BBB would be honest enough to just print its policies concerning vets and physicians. I understand that the BBB just wants to deal with the "business" aspects of those two business entities but to not clearly state on their website that an "A" grade on a vet's or doc's business is only a grade on their business practices (billing, customer service, etc.) and not their medical practices is just fraudulent. Where does our local BBB stand on all of this?

The last time user Toledo_BBB_Viewpoint logged in was March 12, 2010.

Obviously who ever used to frequent this board and clued Dick Epstein in on the previous discussion either hasn't let him know that this thread has been revived or stopped coming here. Either way with his last post he seemed like he thought his time was better spent elsewhere.

I think you may be right Linecrosser

I'll wager that the national BBB headquarters issued a "silencio" edict to all local units when the abc report aired. Some laws have been broken here that warrent investigation. However, enforcement depends on local prosecutors and/or states Attorneys General. With the recent GOP takeover any anti-business, pro-consumer action might just get ignored. Hard to tell what might happen, but I don't think this is over.

"Hard to tell what might happen, but I don't think this is over."

I have to agree, Holland. If the corruption is so widespread, and it appears that it is, according to Brian Ross's report, the investigation is probably ongoing. The 20/20 report will probably also spark more feedback from businesses and others who feel they were also victims of deceptive practices by the BBB and its rating system.

Wow. The 20/20 BBB probe was very powerful. As Holland said, I don't think this is over. As some of us said at the beginning of this thread, we have serious concerns about the BBB's rating system. Apparently, Ross, and an attorney general agree that the BBB's rating system misleads the public.

Dick Eppstein said on March 4:

"I was in Columbus at the Ohio AG's conference earlier today and had the rare chance to raise this issue with one of the BBB presidents who is on the very committee handling such reporting language issues(!) He told me that language almost identical to that proposed by renegade (above) has been devised by the committee and may be available to the whole BBB system soon. This will help avoid misunderstandings."

Dick, did the northwest Ohio BBB adopt this language yet regarding concerns we have with the rating system?

I also saw the 20-20 episode on the BBB, and it made me sick to my stomach to see corruption at this level by a group that is supposed to be a consumer watchdog.

"Obviously who ever used to frequent this board and clued Dick Epstein in on the previous discussion either hasn't let him know that this thread has been revived or stopped coming here."

Linecrosser, Epstein's silence is deafening.

"Puck also questioned where all the membership fees go. Good question."

Bikerdude, the 20/20 episode says that the salaries of top BBB officials are in the six figures. The head of the LA BBB makes over $400,000 per year. I guess it is about money.

"The best part of the shw was when Steve Cox just got up and left the interview. His "assistant" informed him he had to go. Uh Huh...."

I loved that part, too, gdw. Somehow I missed that part of the segment the first time. So I watched it again. I guess Ross's questions got too hot for Cox and he had to flee. I hope 20/20 does an update next year.