Toledo's Economy

ok

Alrighty.

how much crack do you smoke on a daily basis?

hunkytownsausage, prefer carbohydrates since I'm diabetic.

toledo = youngstown

I got a feeling what's in Toledo's future. Lot's of creative ways people are gonna get taxed

When I was a kid, I grew up in Schenectady, New York. The General Electric Company (G.E.) was the BIG employer in that region, along with state jobs in nearby Albany. My father worked for G.E. for 35 years. At its peak in the mid 1970's, G.E. employed over 27,500 people who lived in the Albany-Schenectady-Troy region. There were a lot of other companies too, that were in business, because G.E. was in town.

Today, only a couple thousand G.E. jobs remain. Things are terrible in Schenectady and Schenectady county. It's been like this for years. Taxes and the cost of living keep going up. I still talk to friends and old neighbors. They tell me stories. I keep thinking that what has happened in Schenectady, could begin to happen in Toledo.

I talked to a fire-fighter friend of mine last week. An old grade school classmate. He is a fire-fighter in Schenectady. He has a house that he paid $115K for, a few years ago. His monthly tax bill is just over $400.00 a month. The property taxes have been "thru the roof" for years.

When I was in Schenectady to visit my friends last summer, I stopped at a Subway shop to get a sandwich. I ordered a sub for carryout. Then they rang up my order and charged me sales tax. I told the guy this was a carry-out order. He said I still had to pay a sales tax anyway.

In 2007, the politicians in Schenectady wanted to create a list of all the property owners in Schenectady, who were landlords or absentee owners. They claimed they were only doing this, for safety reasons. In case the police or fire department needed to contact the property owner. There were stiff fines for landlords that didn't come forward. - Very stiff fines.

Two years later, now the politicians in Schenectady want to do something real special with this list of absentee owners / landlords. They want to make absentee owners / landlords pay higher property taxes than owner occupied properties. This story was in the Schenectady Gazette last week. It's being debated right now.

WA, thanks for the info. It could happen here.

I guess I started this thread because I see so much blame being apportioned to those union workers whose wages (when taxed) made so much of what we "enjoy" possible. When we look to the future we think that this is just a passing phase. There is no connection to a future that may be dystopian. And yet it may happen.

Try a nice antidepressant...with burbon

Silly justareviewer...go back to sleep.

I guess one difference between now and my childhood is that when I grew up on Alexis Road we took the bus to "downtown" to shop at Tiedktke's and the Lion's store. Later, when we got a car we could shop at Miracle Mile or take the bus to downtown. Since the 1970's there has been no downtown to shop at (lots of free parking at the malls). What do we come downtown for except for a meal at a restaurant or a drink in a bar.

OSEB has a good point, at least at first. Cities in Ohio that are allegedly prosperous have far lower rates of home ownership. Cinci and Columbus have rates around 35%, whereas Toledo and Cleveland have rates around 65%. No doubt that the capitalist scum are enraged that Toledoans and Clevelanders aren't on the hook for renting their homes from them ... but they are working strongly on fixing that, but making sure we have no incomes, leading to widespread bankruptcies and foreclosures, so that Toledo at least reverts to the capitalist ideal of "desperate renters".

Still, OSEB's proposal breaks down since he harps on the downtown issue. There is no law natural or otherwise that says the downtown has to mean anything, economically speaking. We don't have public transportation (TARTA is a joke -- it's the heavily subsidized system for moving the poor), so it just doesn't matter where anything is. Toledo has no hub and needs none. You can nearly anywhere you want in Toledo in about 15-20 minutes and that's good enough for the next century.

What Toledo requires is a reversion to what's supposed to be the natural state of the United States -- personal liberty, minimal government, and a strong respect for the law.

I do not think I meant to emphasize the downtown. Toledo is the largest town in the county (so that may be why it is the county seat). But we do spend most of our tax dollars for public safety in the aging, declining neighborhoods that produce less tax dollars from either income or real estate. Maybe it is time to eliminate the taxes, and pay for city services by fees from those who use the services. Others, who can afford safer housing in stable neighborhoods should not have to subsidize the poor. If they or their landlord cannot pay the fee we can get rid of another fire trap (let the fireman stand safely away and let it burn). This would definitely make our taxes cheaper, and our town less populous. We might eventually be "right-sized" with a population less in need of welfare.

OSEB, in order to achieve that end, you have to start voting for fiscal conservatives and Libertarians otherwise. Bell isn't it.

It's also going to politically tough to note that with the greatly decreased numbers of chairs, playing the game of musical chairs no longer suits the purpose of those with real salaries. It smacks deeply of hypocrisy.

That's why both taxes and welfare must be cut for everyone, not just select populations.

A few thoughts on this topic:

1.) Toledo must get over its "Jeep addiction"...meaning politicians will bend over (front and backwards) and give Jeep/Chrysler/Fiat anything they want to keep that plant in Toledo. In the meantime, any NEW business that may want to open here, they openly salivate at the thought of how much they can tax that business. This is a "business-friendly" environment where companies will flock? Please...

Attract new businesses by offering real incentives, not political ploys. You may not get all the taxes you want from the "business", but there would be at least more people paying that precious local income tax that voters seem so enamored of approving every few years. Oh, and stop making scumbag deals with developers who promise much and seemingly deliver little (still waiting on that big "Southwyck development" deal to come through).

2.) Toledo has huge safety issues, both in reality and perception and its killing any recovery spurred by business investment. My mother is still talking about the guy who was killed with a brick in the OWE by that 15 year old. What about the other kid who openly raped someone a few months back? Thanks to the internet, these stories were national news. Think people & businesses will be flocking to our fair area with that kind of PR?

The Franklin Park Mall incident is a real shock for people who don't frequent it much anymore because that mall sits right in the middle of what used to be a "nice" area. It was a treat to go to FPM when I was a kid (we lived in the South End). Now, people are getting held up at their cars in the parking lot while wanna-be thugs roam the interior.

All this is happening while the city continues to cut back on police and other safety personnel. People haven't been moving to the suburbs just because of economics--its a matter of shielding themselves from the expansion of crime in the city. And you can't blame people for voting with their feet "Get me away from here."

3.) Wages/unions/etc.: It isn't completely the high "union" wages of current labor that is driving costs; it is the legacy costs of retired personnel that is crippling the city...and older companies in general. Pension plans with full health coverage (with little to no copay) are strangling budgets across the country. When these deals were made, the actuaries were not calcualting a ton of people living well into their 80's and 90's.

I don't know what to do about this--people were promised things 30-40 years ago and I generally feel we should live up to that bargain. They planned their lives around terms of that agreement. However, that should not automatically mean someone who starts tomorrow gets the same deal. It is unsustainable.

4.) Downtown: It is correct that no city is entitled to a vibrant downtown; however, without one we appear to the world as a dead city. I actually supported moving the sports teams downtown--at least that brings people into the area and helps.

What would also help is if we could assess downtown realistically. It is NOT premium retail real estate, nor is it premium office real estate. How many empty floors of skyscrapers do we have downtown? Empty buildings (hello, Fort Industry Square)? How about decent name brand hotels? In any normal economic sense, there is a glut of available space for start-up businesses to have a great, spacious place to work, but apparently its better to have empty buildings rather than cutting deals to get people IN those buildings. Toledo has good technical and transportation infrastructure--but somehow the rents stay sky high and we cant get people to start businesses in our hub area?

I would love to hear your thoughts on these matters as this thread continues.

Given our economy, and the intransigence of the unions for our public employees should Bell just let the state take over, and dictate the terms of our budget for this year? It seems as though the Mayor will have to continue to do the heavy lifting while members of the city council "duck and cover".

oldhometown, I don't know how "legacy costs" would cripple the city. Those retirees who stay here contribute to the economy with their purchasing power. Health coverage may be a general drag on the whole economy, but most people want to live longer (not die). Those who partake of Medicare are also a drag on the economy. Most "entitlements" could be eliminated if Congressmen could only run one term. They vote for these programs because they think they can do more good staying in office.

OHT, if you don't understand by now that government is the problem, not the solution, then you're beyond all help.

The city has been "cutting deals" for DECADES now. Witness the result, all around you. Obviously, cutting deals isn't the answer. The answer is to have less of the people and procedures for which deals are cut in the first place.

Practically the first thing that Czarty did in his 3rd term was to try to kill off the Westgate "deal" with his personal interference. He then pipelined money into that crook Dillin's pocket, with the predictable result that we have:

1. An empty lot where the Southwyck Mall once stood.

2. A "road to nowhere" running along the Maumee River.

People like you are obviously in love with the power of government, regardless of how pathetic or destructive or wasteful it is. You are part of the problem.

The next time you get in front of a voting machine, don't throw your vote away on the Democrat-picked elite that will only try to increase your load of taxes and fees and fines. Instead, pick the guy that will CUT THE CITY BUDGET NO MATTER WHO SCREAMS ABOUT IT.

Toledo had that option in November, but they chose Mike "tax man" Bell, instead.

Pretty good points but the bottom line for Toledo is that it is based entirely on autoworker jobs. Jeep, powertrain, and others hit hard times, so does Toledo. If they are booming, Toledo is doing well. They are locked together. If Toledo is to be "recession proof" and get better for the future, it must start by bringing in some other type of income from taxes.
If this cannot happen, get used to this up and down lifestyle.

Don't ask for whom the Bell trolls ... he trolls for your wallet?

GuestZero, please read what I actually wrote before flaming me.

I said "stop making scumbag deals with developers"--notice the word "stop"? I know exactly what Carty did with Larry Dillon and it sickens me. That was the whole point--stop this behavior. Stop it now. Did you not see that?

The only time I mentioned taxes was about city leaders "salivating" over how much they can tax any new business that may want to move to Toledo. I further mention that instead of doing that, they should accept (and promote) lower taxes on businesses because the revenue they would get from existing-level taxes from people actually WORKING (sales tax, local income tax, property taxes, etc) would be higher than any punishing business tax. It's called supply side economics--not exactly a liberal idea.

I don't see anywhere in my post where I advocate expanding government, taxing more, or coming up with more "guvmint" solutions. Perhaps you think because I mentioned high union wages in point #3 I am defending them. I'm not--I'm saying they are not the ONLY cause of city budget problems. The tremendous pension costs of city retirees, which will only increase as health care costs go up, are a 1,000-ton weight on the budget and it is a problem that needs to be addressed. I simply say I don't know what the best solution is. Once again, that position makes me a leftie? Don't think so...

Read things completely before blowing your stack at someone next time.

GZ, we are stuck with Bell until the next election, or recall. I voted for Moody myself. Not so much because I believe in his views, but I would like to see a Republican (or conservative) actually be in a position to change things rather than complain about them.

I wish they had left Southwyck alone. It was a nice, empty space in which to walk in the afternoon. They could have charged 50 cents or a dollar's admission and a lot of us "mall walkers" would have paid it. Now the only alternative is the Woodville Mall.

As to the "road to nowhere" I guess you're talking about development that is supposed to be done on the East Side. Maybe the fellow advanced the money should pay it back, and look for a more profitable venture.

OSEB's idea of economic developement = leaving a large, empty, run-down mall open for the old farts to walk in. Only alternative is Woodville Mall? Ever heard of a park? Or sidewalk? If I ever get to the point that I seek empty mall to walk in, I hope my kids put a bullet in my head.

Was watching a new blurb tonight that kind of shocked me into reality and had a tone similiar to the one here on TT.

Toledo really is a solar cell capital in it's own respects, I'm excited for its future. But despite having the technology, top rate photovoltaics department at UT, various research centers, and a great factory/working class to fill those jobs one thing kept us from being #1 so far.

Taxes, apparently Toledo lost a LOT of contract jobs we were more than qualified and able to fulfill but couldn't do to the taxes here.

Sad.

muddyriverduck, I still walk outside, but sometimes it's nice to get out of the rain and snow. I walk with a friend who doesn't like to walk in the snow. His wife (she was shopping alone) was accosted by young people in the mall several years before it died. She was told to leave. That it was their place, and that she did not belong there. She is white, they were black. That kind of ruined the shopping experience for her there. By the end the only thing Southwyck was good for was mall walking. People die, and malls die. Now we have an open field to develop when the economy improves. Hopefully they will not make the mistake of building another indoor mall like they did Southwyck.

OldHomeTown, what an excellent post. I look forward to hearing people's thoughts, too.

Your 2nd point, that "Franklin Park Mall incident is a real shock for people who don't frequent it much anymore because that mall sits right in the middle of what used to be a "nice" area" was a surprise to me. I think the area's still very nice (though I don't live there).

We shop and eat all around the mall area at all hours ... spouse likes Kohl's, we both love Andersons; the J.Alex and Starbucks (not to mention the Macintosh store) attract an upscale clientele.

I have never much enjoyed strolling around inside the mall -- any mall -- due to personal preference, not because of any incidents or fears.

It seems like a nice area to me; however, there is a Chuck-E-Cheese nearby ;-)

OHT, did you say the following?

“ Attract new businesses by offering real incentives, not political ploys. ”

“ cutting deals to get people IN those buildings ”

Yes, you did. It's clear English, and it meant that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

The PROBLEM is that city politicians have long thought they have the ability to run a macro-business called the "Toledo economy". They cannot, since as politicians they are generally morons ... and it gets even worse, since they are wholly insulated from the consequences of their mistakes, unlike small businessmen.

There is only one solution: No deals. No incentives. The government is now ALWAYS a barrier, not just by involvement, but by its very existence.

I told you before that distributing favors (which is the ONLY thing that happens when you incentivize or cut deals) doesn't work, since what you see around you is the end result of a generation of doing that sort of thing.

So in return I cordially and in good humor invite you to stop complaining about having your biases exposed, and spend some time instead considering what's wrong with your assumptions and plans. Stop being a "useful idiot" in your support of ELEMENTS of government, which just enables the larger, more destructive scam that our government actually IS.

"OSEB's idea of economic developement = leaving a large, empty, run-down mall open for the old farts to walk in. Only alternative is Woodville Mall? Ever heard of a park? Or sidewalk? If I ever get to the point that I seek empty mall to walk in, I hope my kids put a bullet in my head."

Best post ever!

Guest --
I have a feeling you're a huge Gleen Beck/Rush Limboo/Sara Palin fan. They advocate all the time that government is a problem, while, at least in Palin's case, running for office. If you hate government, stay out of it.

Government isn't a problem. Government is a necessity to a well-ordered society. When you advocate against government, you advocate against society itself.

Civilized people have long accepted certain facts: a well-educated populace is better for all than an ignorant one. When police and fire are absent, the public safety is threatened. When an area is allowed to become overgrown and run down, it is a haven for vermin, and a health concern.

While there should always be those who oversee our government to keep it honest, your pointless anti-government rants are getting old.

When I hear someone who rants as much as you do against a government that is OF THE PEOPLE, I suspect that there is a certain amount of self-loathing present.