TPD rejects concessions

A kick to the groin from the TPPA to the citizens of Toledo. Let's go to bankruptcy and see what the state's representatives do. Or lay off about 300 and hand out their guns to citizens. Haven't heard much about robbery since those two got blasted a couple of weeks ago.

their choice = lose 1,250 a year or 125 of you lose everything really makes no sense to me. it's a no brainer to accept the concessions.

In this economy, it's selfish.

that's exactly what i'm feeling

State going to end up stepping in and renegotiate all contracts. Should be an across the board reduction of 5% for all employees of the county and cities. Just whack 5% off everything wages, funds, schools, pensions, any benefit or spediture, dont matter if its general fund, water department, bridges streets, if its from tax funds cut it 5%. Need to go back to the business of governing and not running businesses as well, no reason for city to own erie street market, the docks, an ambulance service. go back to what the charter dictates they have a responsibility for, get rid of the pools, let someone buy them and run them for profit, or let those neighborhoods set up a assosiation and all pay to operate them if they want them.

Union busting bankruptcy coming right up.

In this econonmy=ridiculous! They'll be laid off and unemployment will equal a bigger cut to their wages.

They have now made their bed, time to lay in it.

TPD thank you for turning you backs on the people who need you the most and by the way pay your salary. You continue to press for 1950's union fat cat deals. How many of the people who fund your pay checks (tax payers, well the ones of us left with jobs) get pensions or even paid holidays? I pay more in healthcare in one week than you have to pay all month!

Raise your hand if you get better benefits than you boss does? But that is the case with municipal unions, remember you are a civil servant, and when you stop serving the people don't cry to me.

What is somewhat interesting to me is the position of
the {Chameleon Formerly Known As TPD's Union Head}, Michael Collins.
As he posits for the cameras and microphones,
he now makes claims as to the evil's and cures for Toledo's financial ailments.

However, I recall sitting in one of his classes at UT in 2000 where
he bragged to his students about how he took the TPD contract with the city
in the 1970's from a position where some officers qualified for foodstamps
to a contract compensating the highest paid police officers in the state.

Pension pickups followed due to his headstrong negotiations with the city.

All other unions (firefighters, police command, AFSCME, etc.)
adopted the 'me too' attitude and as a result, we as a city
have been sliding downhill financially for years by overcompensating city employees.

I think it is humorous how Michael Collins created this trend of excessive compensation
in public servant contracts, and how he now tries to gain politcally from opposing them.

A true chameleon.

Well, some of them will be back to qualifying for food stamps again.

Incredible, but I guess it shouldn't be too surprising - they just can't see the writing on the wall. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Not much time left to get some sort of budget worked out, perhaps running the city is not as easy a being captain of a mid-major football team.

so the fire fighters accepted the concessions? the police must feel weird about that.

It's unfortunate, but I refuse to cast too much blame on the TPD. There is a big difference between a regular job and one where you face the chance of being killed on any given day.
It would take a lot for me to say that a police officer was over paid.

I don't envy Mayor Bell at this point. This city is screwed in a big way, and there is no fast way out of it.

It seems to me a worker at a convenience store might have a more dangerous job than a policeman.

jeepmaker, you're right. being a cop is MUCH more dangerous than bagging groceries but the thing is... they chose to be cops.

I look at it like this. NOBODY wants a pay cut, period. But they should accept it for now. That said; I would be a little hesitant (read: pissed) myself if I was police officer walking the beat being asked to take a cut while some of Bells office staff are getting up to 30% raises.

How has this man not been called out on that? It was a blip and then gone. I will not forget it. And it’s got me pissed off enough to actually campaign for WHOEVER is running against this tool in the future.

exactly upso. Police aren't drafted, they choose to do their job. I grew up with endless respect for police and firemen because of their jobs. As an adult, my opinion has changed. This is just the topping. As I've said before, the drunk cops, the ones busted for drugs, and now they are basically saying, "Screw the city, I want my money".

"It's unfortunate, but I refuse to cast too much blame on the TPD. There is a big difference between a regular job and one where you face the chance of being killed on any given day.
It would take a lot for me to say that a police officer was over paid."

It is not up to the taxpayer to subsidies anyone's career choice. Should of been a librarian if you wanted to be safe.

but the thing is... they chose to be cops.

Exactly. They choose to protect you, your property, your family -- all the while putting themselves at risk every day.

And people on here, in complete anonymity, with no risk to themselves, have the gall to say our police and firefighters should just accept less pay.

Thank God none of you are cops.

It would be interesting to see a comparison of what Toledo Police officers get, in terms of total compensation, versus what police officers are getting in other cities (like Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columubus, Dayton, Akron, etc.)

I think The Blade may have published a story like this, sometime in the past couple years.

Anniecski, I think you're misinterpreting what i'm saying...
I have nothing but respect for the police force, as well as other public officials that choose a self sacrificing life of public service. My point is.. they chose this path in life and have to deal with the consequences just like any other choices people make in life.

If you choose to be a public servant in a rust belt city there is a lot of baggage associated with it. You have to expect the economy will be a factor in your job just like it is with all of us. Why someone wouldn't take a miniscule paycut vs possibly losing their jobs just doesn't make sense to me. If they were concerned about the public safety of Toledo, as i'm assuming they are... they wouldn't want to risk being laid off.

I'm not looking to punish them for keeping us safe. I'm looking for a solution where they don't get laid off.

All i know is, if i had to take a "temporary" pay cut to save my job i would, REGARDLESS of what that job is. I haven't had a raise in over 2 years, and in this economy i don't expect one, nor will i ask for one, i'm happy to be employed at all.

The local economy shows no sign of improving, so we will be debating this issue again next year and, no doubt subsequent years.

E.

to that point, I can understand why they would resist now

5% paycut? at least 10% across the board. 95% of those cops probably never shot their gun while on duty. It is somewhat a dangerous job because you never know. However, this isn't NYC. They choose to become cops.
Overall their jobs all no more dangerous than a lot of jobs. Don't try to make it out something its not.

5% on everyone mayor to garbage collector, secretary to police officer, teacher to auto maintenance garage worker.

linecrosser, teacher salaries in Toledo come out of the state budget. It won't impact the Toledo budget shortfall. Other than that, I agree with you cuts across the boards.

Yes, they chose to be cops, and the city chose to agree to a contract with them to pay them a certain amount.

They also agreed to provide you with city services at a set tax rate and not just increase it every year. Kinda like that temporary 3/4% tax from way long ago. If the state pays the teachers why are they seeking more taxes from you? They chose to be cops I agree, but when you cant afford to have them its either pay less or pay fewer. I still have yet to hear a good argument as to why fire and police are the first on the chopping block when budgets are short

Well...all those soldiers overseas in the military CHOSE their job too...does that mean if they get killed by some piece of shit terrorist...we should have no sympathy for them as well because they CHOSE to be a soldier? That's B.S.!

Terrible comparison.

Annie has to understand and accept that when the rest of us largely face a future of $12/hr or less, then the 10-yr police vet can't anticipate making $50K a year. Period. If We The People are going to end up impoverished, then we cannot and will not afford a highly-paid set of so-called public servants. Salaries have to shrink, and their huge benefits packages will have to either shrink or be paid for by them in the first place.

The Age of the Public Union is coming to an end. Considering how little we get for how much the unions cost us, I say "good riddance".

And attempt to put this truth to the test will find Toledoans either moving away, becoming welfare recipients, or going off the books as far as income taxes are concerned. Understand and accept, Annie, since you simply have no choice.

Really Ryan...Let's see...
Cop's Job=protect citizens from those that would harm them
Soldier's Job=protect citezens from those that would harm them
Cop-chooses job
Soldier-chooses job
Cop=public servant
Soldier=public servant
Cop-puts life on line during duty
Soldier-puts life on line during duty
Cop-follows orders, patrols streets he/she is assigned to
Soldier-follows orders, patrols streets he/she is assigned to

Ya...terrible comparison...moron

Glad you agree.

(hint: it's a numbers game, that may be where you are getting lost)

I don't blame TPPA. They were told that if they don't accept concessions they'd be laid off. However if they do accept concessions the city promised..... nothing. No job protection, no promise to not lay anyone off for 6 months or a year. Having talked to a few TPD people my understanding is if the city had offered something in return, like a year without more threats of layoffs, it would have passed.

Meanwhile the mayor gives raises to his people. The city hides money (cough, snow removal fund, cough). Administrators get to cash in their sick time for a fat check. Thousands of dollars in city equipment can disappear from the face of the Earth and the person responsible can simply shrug and say "I dunno where it is." The city government refuses any sort of accountability or responsibility for anything, and the moment they can't pay their bills their first thought is always to spit on legal contracts they willingly entered into, ramp up the scare tactics against the public, and demand that their employees shoulder the burden of their bad decisions or face layoffs.

I love how people who are underpaid and trying to get by on slave wages begrudge those who are doing a little better.

Instead of begrudging the TPS, TFD, and TFT what they have, why not organize YOUR workplace and agitate for higher wages and better working conditions? Why is it OK for the CEO of a company to make 400x what you do? Does anyone honestly deserve that much money?

No. Americans -- including our teachers, firefighters and police officers -- should be earning a living wage. Direct your anger where it's deserved -- at the fatcats who put their money in offshore bank accounts to avoid paying taxes, whose companies accept tax abatements that mean less money for our schools.

Organize, people. It's the only way to fight back.

"I have nothing but respect for the police force, as well as other public officials that choose a self sacrificing life of public service."

Bullshit. They choose this self sacrificing life because of a job that is not hard, excellent pension, can retire early, can double dip, liberal overtime, excessive days off, excellent health insurance and a decent salary. This is the REAL reason that 98% of people want to be a cop, fireman or public servant.

"Yes, they chose to be cops, and the city chose to agree to a contract with them to pay them a certain amount."

I don't blame the cops either. I blame the SOB's who sold the public out so they could keep those votes coming in. A vicious cycle which has come home to roost!

I never understood that kind of mentality.

If I had to pick between taking a small paycut or losing my job, I'd pick the cut.

Something is better than nothing, and if it truly sucks make do with what you have to keep the money flowing (and bills paid), and look for a job elsewhere till something better comes along.

Why do you always assume that a person who makes a negative comment about a union is poorly paid "slave labor"?

I earn a comfortable living, and frankly, yes - I question the intelligence of a group who doesn't see the writing on the wall.

The tax base of the city is steadily decreasing. Its logically follows that the city's total wage expense will have to decrease as well. This will either happen by lowering pay scales, reducing the number of employees, or some combination of both. Its basic math.

Who among us hasn't had to make some sacrifices in this economy? I've had to take a few unpaid days, & I'm working more hours for the same money (salaried, so no overtime). But you know what? I'm not complaining - we had a choice between each of us making small sacrifices, or else they would have had to eliminate some jobs. Even though my job would have been safe from elimination, I'm still a team player and did what had to be done to protect jobs.

Annie,

Would the proposed cuts really affect the police's "living wage"
I know I can live with a $32.50 a week income cut.

"Why is it OK for the CEO of a company to make 400x what you do?"

What does CEO salaries have to do with the Toledo Police? Does the mayor really make anywhere near "400x" what police make? I get where you're coming from, but I don't agree with your logic.

cops and military comparison is hilariously wrong. You don't know a thing about either.
Cop-just started having random drug tests and some got caught
soldier-has had random drug tests for years
Cop-protects citizens from those who would harm them? You are watching too many Dirty Harry movies. From my point of view, all they've shot is a mentally ill woman and a motorcyclist in Ottawa Hills. What part of protecting the public was that?
Cop-may or may not patrol streets ordered to, may also drink or drive around aimlessly and no one would know the difference would they?
Military-who are speaking of? Only those in Iraq or Afganistan on the front lines are under constant fire. Many in the military never face any danger worse than a paper cut. And by the way, please interview those 300# fat cops and tell me what danger they face everyday besides having a heart attack. The military has guidelines and those who don't meet those them can be discharged. Cops can complain to their union and make excuses until they retire.

Any military member could be told at any time to give up their life for absolutely no reason other than an order. And if they refuse, could face prison or worse.
Any cop ordered to give up their life can resign, then sue the city or boss.
Cops and military wear uniforms, that's about the only thing they're the same on. Please don't insult my career and veterans that I know by saying cops do the same job and face the same risks.

salutes hockeyfan.

_S!

The next police contract definitely needs to have a physical and weight clause.
Some of these officers are in no shape to apprehend, chase or shoot anything. I did not know they made uniforms that big.

Amen, hockeyfan !

UPSO, the mayor makes $136000, the last I heard. The median police salary is about $50000, which I have obtained from a private source. That's x2.7.

Annie, if you think "agitation" will result in greater worker power, you're forgetting altogether the lesson of Doehler-Jarvis. The Capitalist Scum have all the power now. Attempts to organize will and must fail, on that basis.

The only answer is to reduce our citizen overhead to prepare for an era of artificial scarcity. That means cutting government, to reduce our taxes.

I work in a certain government job at the moment, and our site manager has mentioned several times that there are over 5700 people in the recruitment database that are just waiting to be called to take a job, any job. That isn't just a claim; I know the recruiters and from observing their work, it's easy to see such a number is true.

So, rock the boat around here, and you're tossed off, so that another person will take your place. So I'm not late to work, since two tardies will result in termination ... and then one of the 5700-plus will be called to take my place.

The latest stats that I read about showed that 6 people were looking for work, for every 1 job position that's being advertised. Think about what that means. We workers have no power, and any attempt to exert power will result in termination, general layoffs, even closing down of the work site in our area.

I raise my bourbon glass to hockeyfan.

from the blade:

The Blade's website has an article with a searchable database that lists the compensation for all Toledo Police and Fire personnel:

http://www.toledoblade.com/article/20100328/NEWS16/100329854

Mom2 --

In this economy, a person making the minimum wage is indeed making slave wages.

You do understand, don't you, that most of those jobs have no benefits and no retirement to speak of? That a person making the minimum wage (or even just above) is more than likely one sick child away from homelessness? If that isn't slavery to a job, please, tell me, what is it?

As Guest points out, workers today have few rights -- there are simply far more workers than there are jobs. And the federal government, over the years, has made it far harder for workers to organize or have any sort of voice in the workplace.

As more and more money has been concentrated in the hands of a very few, the rest of us are left scrambling for the crumbs from their plates. This is the world that will be available for our children, unless we do something about it. And as individuals, we can do precious little.

Our only power is in numbers. As Benjamin Franklin said, "We must all hang together or surely, we will all hang separately."

How much is the Mayor also getting for his retirement income?He might be over the 200,000 dollar mark with his double dipping!

If you want to compare police with soldiers you should compare their wages as well, just compare a brand new soldier with a brand new cop in Toledo.

i don't think we should compare them at all.

Annie, you're still not getting with the program.

Your numbers are meaningless, since no exertion of numbers under our current laws can stop a private entity from doing what it wants with its private property, including its investment capital.

Come back when you're willing to make use of your popular numbers to pass laws against the free movement of money and equipment. Until you do that, your numbers mean precisely squat.

P.S. And good luck with that, since any law forbidding the free movement of capital would come back on you twice as hard. Would you like to apply to a special government department in order to sell your home, or to move your money from one bank to another? Be careful for what you wish for, or for where your thinking logically ends up at.

slavery to a job is one that is minimum wage or close to it?
Are you a few fries short of a happy meal or what?

There is a reason for minimum wage jobs. It's for those with little or no training to make money. If you want a better job, go to school, get additional training, etc. You cannot just "show up" and expect to earn a living wage. Instead of parents giving everything to their kids because we don't want to make little johnny and josephine upset, they should be teaching them to support themselves. That life isn't all about xbox and facebook and MTV. That to exist financially you have to have a career and make a living.
Can you imagine what would happen to the economy if every job had retirement, benefits, health plans, and paid a living wage. Good luck with that.
The people of numbers you speak of are the ones that have gotten lazy. They have not had "hard times" to experience. Talk to the generation that went through the great depression of the '20s. Or those who lived during a world war. Those are the ones that worked hard and made a living.
Not the spoiled brats of today's world. Where cell phones, new cars, and designer clothes are considered "standard" for kids.

You missed my point, Anniecski.

I'm well aware that there are a lot of minimum wage employees out there.

However, I was disputing your assertion that anyone who complains about a union must be a "minimum wage slave" who is jealous of what the union employees have.

My husband has worked 2 union jobs and HATED every minute of it. Neither union accomplished much other than collecting dues and protecting the lazy employees. Nothing like a person busting their butt and being one of the best employees, but being one of the first employees on the line for a layoff because some other lazy fool has been in the union longer.

I'm sure its no coincidence that right-to-work states tend to have lower unemployment on average.

(And I've always thought it funny that a group that promotes "worker rights" doesn't give them the right to accept or decline membership, other than turning down the job completely.)

I don't assert that anyone who complains about unions is a wage slave. What I AM asserting is that there are a whole lot of wage slaves on here -- people who admit they make little more than minimum -- complaining about those who are fortunate enough to earn more.

And check your facts again, mom2. NO ONE can be forced to join a union. There is a law, called a Beck Objection, that states anyone who objects to paying union does doesn't have to, except where they are covered by collective bargaining. In other words, if you are accepting a job that pays union wages, those wages have been bargained for on your behalf, and you have to pay for that bargaining, but other than that, no, you are apart from the union.

Sorry your husband didn't work out in a union job. I'm sure he's doing much better now.

"All I have to say is "maybe the city's budget could be a little less" "if" the cops would get off their ass's and enforce the city codes and ticket the violators,Like the morons with the loud radios!

if it can be heard 55' away its "supposed to be a $110.00 fine" that would go into the city coffers