It took the wind out of me to watch the guy just drop over after the shot...it is pretty hard to watch IMO.
Comments ... #
You're right - it is disturbing. Especially when the cyclist who was shot appeared not to be doing anything that would warrant the use of deadly force.
I posted quite a bit about this case when it happenned, cautioning everyone to save judgment until the facts were known.
The video is very damning. Ofc. White is in serious legal trouble, criminal and civil. I can't speak to his mindset. I think likely he made the CARDINAL MISTAKE of putting his finger on the trigger when he should not (rule #2), and had a negligent discharge.
Thus, he may escape an aggrivated assault conviction, with a reduction to some reckless or negligent level, but his civil case is going to be a slam dunk.
Tragedy for all.
Maybe he shot the guy in the back, because he saw Charles Bronson do it in a movie before:
I think TAHL nailed it. It looks like a case of poor weapon handling/negligent discharge.
I hope they don't have it set up where the only choice the jury is given is guilty or not to felonious assault with the gun specification. They at least need the option of a lesser charge.
There is simply no justification for shooting an unarmed man in the back. I watched it a few times, and I saw nothing that could be construed as a threatening move by the victim.
The video is very damning. Gee, do you really think so? You know, that gun that Officer Thomas White was using looks like one of those scary black guns. I know Officer White is a policeman and has had a lot of training on firearms, but do you think there's a chance that scary black gun got away from Officer White and just went off by itself? I mean, it could happen, right?
Mockery and sarcasm aside, White should be facing attempted murder as well as felonious assault and any other charges a vindictive and creative prosecutor can dream up.
I don't buy the accidental discharge story for several reasons. If you watch the video closely, you'll see that Officer White is holding his pistol correctly, with his finger off the trigger. Furthermore, after White shoots McCloskey he continued to berate McCloskey and refused to move the motorcycle off him for 30 minutes. McCloskey's leg was burned so badly the leg may have to be amputated.
Do you have any idea just how hardhearted someone has to be to stand around watching a wounded man being burned like that?
Depraved indifference comes to mind.
Just plain scary. Awful.
To paraphrase an old Richard Pryor bit about being pulled over--(yelling) "I AM REACHING INTO MY POCKET FOR MY LICENSE...'CUZ I DON'T WANNA BE NO MOTHERF#&*ING 'ACCIDENT'!"
The fact that Officer White reportedly turned the dashcam off and on several times is going to be an important part of the prosecution's case, IMHO. The prosecutors will turn this into evidence that White knew things had gone horribly wrong and was attempting to doctor the video evidence.
Agrred with MadJack that accidental discharge is going to be a tough sell here. White shouted and fired in just a few seconds, and he was in the classic police shooting pose at all times when the video captured the officer with his weapon drawn.
Also, when this story broke last year the OHPD initially tried to claim that the motorcyclists led police on a high-speed fleeing-eluding chase, but by my estimation only about 6-7 seconds elapsed between the time that White hit his lights and sirens and the motorcyclists pulled over. Maybe this was a bit pokey, but I buy McCloskey's claim that he did not immediately recognize he was being directed to pull over. However, "high-speed chase" is a helluva stretch, and it does not appear that the motorcyclists were guilty of anything more than being a bit slow to pull over.
Here is one of the early Blade articles, dated May 23, 2009, which is based on the police report and statements from OHPD. McCloskey, according to "authorities," supposedly "led police on a short chase in the village early Saturday." In this case, "short chase" means the eight seconds between the lights/sirens being activated and when the motorcyclists voluntarily pulling over, since the "chase" started after the motorcyclists accelerated after what appears to be a complete and legal stop at the previous stop sign.
Interesting to read the early spin by the Ottawa Hills "authorities," though to their credit they quickly turned over the rotten-smelling case to state investigators.
I don't think that it was a negligent discharge. I can see the "reach" the officer was speaking about. Gotta remember the officer isn't set to the right of mccloskey like the camera is. He would be behind the driver or to the left. Couldn't make out everything being said. Gonna be a mess no matter what. I wouldn't be surprised if the officer is found not guilty criminally but gets nailed civilly.
It's sad that this police department's lack of discipline has caused a citizen to be paralyzed. The OHPD should be disbanded. They are far too agressive and blunder prone. They are detrimental to our community (Ottawa Hills and surrounding neighborhoods.) Ottawa Hills citizens should be embarrassed and ashamed.
I believe that the shot that paralyzed that man might have come from the "grassy knoll".
Seriously, I'd like to have heard the cop's testimony about what happened. I'm considering several things:
1-The suspect did take off and lead them on a chase. People run for a reason.
2-I did not hear what was said by the officer before the shot.
3-Did the officer think he saw the suspect reaching? If so, what is the procedure before taking a shot?
I'm not justifying the shooting, but I have to believe that if the suspect stopped when asked the first time, none of this would have happened. That being said, this just enforces my previous posts and beliefs. Policemen must be of a higher degree of person. They must be held to higher standards and treated as such. When they make a mistake, people die or get seriously injured. Pretended that they are "just human" and can get a slap on the wrist for drinking on duty, failing drug tests, etc. is crazy.
From what I've seen on the video, in my opinion, the shot was taken way too soon and was not necessary. Tonight, I'm glad I'm not a cop. The good ones deserve every penny of what they make for the pressure they must be under in a situation like that.
1. This happened almost a year ago. Has officer White been on paid, or un-paid leave all this time ?
2. How much do you think this will COST the Village of Ottawa Hills, in the civil case ? Will there be a settlement, or will it go to trial ?
3. I wonder how much this legal defense by Jerry Phillips, is going to cost officer White & his parents ? Anyone care to take a guess ?
4. The jury consists of 9 women and 3 men. --- Interesting
1. White is on unpaid leave and has not worked for OHPD since the day after the incident.
2. This will be in the millions, IMHO. Ottawa Hills would look even sillier in a civil court, so there will be pressure to settle, but McCloskey's quality of life has been significantly diminished and the judgment will reflect this. Quick guess: $2.5 million.
3. Jerry Phillips is one of the most experienced (and thus expensive) criminal trial lawyers in the area. This defense will easily cost $75,000 or more, especially with all the case prep and expert witnesses. Of course, if White is found guilty of lesser charges and receives less time in prison (or avoids prison altogether), this will be money well spent.
4. Not usually one to make gender-based assumptions, but this could go either way IMHO. Both White and McCloskey are young men, and empathy might be extended toward either one: McCloskey, for his injuries, and White, for what might be interpreted as a horrible mistake. I think the gender issue will be a wash if it even exists. We also do not know the demographics of the jury members: would wealthier jury members be more inclined to support the officer, or would less affluent (or non-Ottawa Hills) jury members be more likely to side with McCloskey?
I would be Mr. Phillip's fee for handling this case is in the $10K-15K range. $75K is way off base, Mike.
Ottawa Hills' insurance compnay will pay the lawyers to handle the civil side of things, remember.
Are you kidding, JohnnyMac? I'll bet Jerry Phillips asked for that much just in his initial retainer. My figure includes the costs to the defense, not just what Phillips will bank, and you have to include the costs of those expert witnesses, the researchers, and the rest of the legal team. Remember too that this trial is going to last a least a week, maybe longer, and that there will likely be appeals. The figure you quoted would be appropriate for a 1-2 day felony trial that is less complicated.
If Ofc. White is found guilty of a criminal charge, Ottawa Hills insurer will argue his conduct falls outside of any coverage. Therefore, Ofc. White could shoulder the burden of any civil defense and judgment. That would not go well for the McClosky, given that White would likely be forced to declare bankruptcy - making any civil judgment against him unenforceable.
If the Villiage is held to be responsible for Ofc. White's conduct, this is easily a multi-million dollar case. Again, if criminal convictions are entered, the civil case becomes even more ripe for a large settlment.
As for interpreting Ofc. White's stance, finger position, body language etc. as showing indifference, that is difficult. How about - panic, fear, anxiety, indecision, regret, and a heavy "Oh Shit" factor. White had just shot someone, the impact of that cannot and should not be underestimated.
Unjustified!! IMO an open & shut case, though I know it won't be that easy.
TAHL - Ive always wondered what the term "Aggrivated" means? seems like every crime there is can have 'aggrivated' tacked on to it...
From my handy Black's Law Dictionary (yes, I have too many books), a legal condition/stipulation of "aggravated" refers to "any circumstance attending the commission of a crime or tort which increases its guilt or enormity or adds to its injurious consequences, but which is above and beyond the essential constituents of the crime or tort itself."
Ah, a new ID for you, truthispainful? Flame away, troll.
Did you just get tired of posting under the pseudonym "louloscoudo," or were you banned, truthispainful?
When has TAHL proclaimed himself to be an "expert on everything under the sun"? His input is intelligent and noteworthy.
Some people have wide ranges of experience. Years ago, these people were respected due to their wisdom and experience. I guess the new generation considers that being arragant.
No HF, apparantly someone thinks MIKE thinks of himself as the expert...
I asked a question on a public forum and it was answered.
Im conservative and mike's liberal - so what? I asked a question and he answered it. must've sounded like clip clop, clip clop because it brought a troll out fm under his bridge...
Thanks Hockey - but I think Truth was calling History Mike names.
The more I watch the video and read about the incident, the more I believe it was a negligent discharge.
Had White intended to shoot McCloskey, he would have fired at least twice. Every academy and department in the country train basic firearms technique as two shots to center mass.
Had White believed McClosky had a weapon, or posed a deadly force threat, he would have stood at at a distance, in a shooting stance, until backup arrived, or handcuffed McClosky and searched him properly.
As for "leaving the bike on him for 30 minutes" MadJack -- the bike was moved off McClosky 2 minutes and 20 seconds from the shot.
Sorry to burst your bubble, truthispainful, but I have posted here for over five years and I will continue to do so. If you do not like what I write, find another place to troll.
I hate when I get my nuts yawned on. Itís like ďArenít they entertaining? Why do you find them so boring?Ē
Donít give my nuts a complex. Nothing worse than nutty nuts.
From TheAssHoleLawyer: Had White intended to shoot McCloskey, he would have fired at least twice. Every academy and department in the country train basic firearms technique as two shots to center mass.
That's a good point, and it's about the only valid point I've seen yet for an accidental discharge (AD). Moreover, I've heard that many departments are training the cops to shoot until the target goes down, which explains the high volume of shots at any police shooting. NYC, for example.
From TheAssHoleLawyer: Had White believed McClosky had a weapon, or posed a deadly force threat, he would have stood at at a distance, in a shooting stance, until backup arrived, or handcuffed McClosky and searched him properly.
Okay, so he didn't do that. All he did was dance around waving his pistol and cursing. WTF?
From TheAssHoleLawyer: As for "leaving the bike on him for 30 minutes" MadJack -- the bike was moved off McClosky 2 minutes and 20 seconds from the shot.
You're right about that. I don't know where I read or got 30 minutes, but I was wrong. It was slightly more than 2 minutes.
That said, let me rest a red hot motorcycle engine on your leg for two minutes and stand around watching you scream for help, then see what the judicial system does to me. Of course, I'm not a big, important policeman from Ottawa Hills, am I?
White was using a Glock, which has a long trigger pull designed to help prevent an AD. A person has to really pull the trigger to get the gun to go off.
More telling is White's depraved indifference to McClosky plight right after the shooting. Both officers ignored McClosky's pleas for help about the bike and the leaking gasoline. McClosky could have been burned alive and neither White nor the other officer cared.
White didn't like motorcycles in Ottawa Hills. He wanted to shoot McClosky, did so and then regretted it.
Madjack, TAHL, bad news guys....not all academy's teach the "double tap". Officers are taught to fire their weapon until the threat ceases. As for why the motorcycle stayed on mckloskey for 2 plus minutes could be explained several ways. If ofc White believed there was a weapon present he could have been waiting for additional units to arrive, he could have been awaiting ems, or he could have simply needed someone that didn't fire a gun to assist him (anyone that has ever had to shoot at another human will understand why).I don't buy the accidental discharge. I still say that no one should be surprised by a not guilty ending to this one.
I heard McClosky was having an afair with the "pig's" wife. He should have shot her instead.
The cop will walk, and McClosky will get paid by the "HILLS"
Of course none of this will be brought up thou...
The latest blade article on the shooting.
I can hardly believe they found an "expert" with the audacity to claim the shooting was justified.
What a load of horse crap.
Let's assume for a second that the victim had a gun.
The cop is BEHIND him and the victim is straddling a heavy motorcycle.
Can you imagine trying to quickly draw a weapon and turn far enough to get a shot at the cop? If he tried the cop would have all day to shoot him.
The general public should fear this being the new acceptable standard for the police shooting someone.
I can hardly believe they found an "expert" with the audacity to claim the shooting was justified.
Jeep - these 'experts' are paid for their services. Getting someone to say something he's paid to say isnt that big a mystery. the same with all the studys and surveys that corporations and politicians alike love so much. Surprise, Surprise - they always come out the way the people writing the checks want em to...
From KWI50: I heard McClosky was having an afair with the "pig's" wife. He should have shot her instead.
If that were the case, it would have been brought out before this as it would make the motivation for the shooting much different. Something like that might rate an attempted murder charge - and if the prosecutor didn't want to go in that direction, the news media would run with it in a heartbeat.
From JohnnyMac: The general public should fear this being the new acceptable standard for the police shooting someone.
You got that right. The standard for police shooting anyone is whatever the cops say it is.
So far White's defense consists of "I thought he had a weapon." White thought McCloskey was armed. Didn't know, just thought.
White should go to jail for the full eleven years. The village of Ottawa Hills should pay up to McCloskey, and this trial should have taken place ten months ago.
If the motorcyclist (McCloskey) had thrown his hands up in the air.......right away, and the COP still shot him anyway, Jerry Phillips could have found an expert witness, who (for a fee) would have agreed to testify that the COP had the right to shoot the motorcylist, because any COP could reasonably assume, that the motorcyclist was about to toss a grenade that he had clenched in his hand.
This hit Gawker today: http://gawker.com/5538270/what-terrible-things-have-police-done-this-week?skyline=true&s=i
Link is half down the article list with a bullet that just says "This."
The more I see about this the angrier it makes me.
The cop said, "it would be "unusual" for someone to turn around when he shouted a command to them and so he believed Mr. McCloskey was reaching for a weapon".
Horse crap! the bike was still running, the cops siren was still blaring away, and the cop was in back of him. The most natural thing to do is what he did, turn so that the sound he was trying to hear, (the cop) was coming more directly towards his ear.
Question for TAHL or anybody in law enforcement: At what point, when someone is pulled over, does the cop call in the plates? If White followed McCloskey all the way down Indian Road, did he call in his plates before turning on the lights and sirens?
From The Blade:
"Based on the totality of everything that had happened in addition to [his movement], I felt I had to use deadly force," testified Officer White, 27. "It appeared as if he was reaching for a weapon. I feared for my life, so I fired one shot."
Okay, the accidental discharge theory is out the door. Now this cop says the shooting was justified because he "feared for his life". What complete and utter bullshit.
The only thing as outrageous as this cop shooting an unarmed man, who was threatening no one, is the defense of the cop's action. Are we seeing the new standard here? If a cop thinks his life is in danger, is that enough to use deadly force?
Like I said, the full 11 years and serve the time in a maximum security prison.
If he feared for his life wouldn't he have unloaded his clip? It appears he may not have been sure after he fired the first shop. If you fear for your life you make the other guy look like swiss cheese unless you have more than one target.
The judge has to give him 5 years, minimum, by law.
I must say that I am surprised. I truly believed there would be a hung jury on this one. Gonna be interesting to see how this one plays out now.
Only 6 hours to deliberate - sounds like they all had him pegged for guilty going into the jury room. I wonder what they offered him as a plea bargain. If he had a chance at Community Control he must be regretting his decision today. Sad thing is, I think the people who posited negligence were probably right. Had he used that defense, at least he would be facing less time. Going for broke can pay off big, but it has a very strong down side.
I wonder if White wishes he'd emptied his clip. If there was no survivor he would have had a stronger case, I think. McCloskey is just lucky that White wasn't on the police longer. He would have probably known a lot of ways to cover his ass.
"I wonder if White wishes he'd emptied his clip. If there was no survivor he would have had a stronger case, I think. McCloskey is just lucky that White wasn't on the police longer. He would have probably known a lot of ways to cover his ass."
Yeah, like turn off the dashcam long enough to put a "throw down" gun in his hand after he killed him.