Local Business versus Chains

I choose local whenever possible. Sometimes I have to choose a chain and I always feel guilty afterwards.

Choosing local businesses is good for our community for many reasons. I think the most important reason to choose local that your money will put wages and capital into the hands of your fellow local citizens rather than being sent out of the area.

I own a small video production house in Toledo and I am a member of Toledo Choose Local. You should look into joining when you get your idea off the ground. There are a couple of really good member benefits. Here's their site if you'd like to look into it.

http://toledochooselocal.org/

Two significant snippets from their site relate the main reasons I choose to buy locally as much as possible:

Why Choose Local:

“When needs are met locally by locally owned enterprises, people have greater control over their lives, money is recycled in the community rather than leaking off into the global financial casino, jobs are more secure, economies are more stable, and there are the means and the incentives to protect the environment and to build the relationships of mutual trust and responsibility that are the foundation of a community.”

Significantly more money re-circulates in Toledo when purchases are made at locally owned, rather than nationally owned, businesses:

A study commissioned by the Andersonville (Chicago) Development Corporation and Chamber of Commerce in October 2004 found that for every $100 spent at locally owned businesses, $68 stays in the local economy. For every $100 spent at non-local businesses, only $43 stays in the local economy. More money is kept in the community because locally owned businesses often purchase from other local businesses, service providers and farms.

I hope your dream comes true someday soon.

One more short thought about buying local versus chains or even versus the internet. I'm serious when I say that I try to buy locally as much as possible. Recently, I bought a laptop from from the Mac Cafe, a local retailer of Apple computers. I did a lot of research and found that I could by this item at a discounted reate and not have to pay sales tax or shipping on the internet. I could have saved $150. After much deliberation, I decided the best course was to pay full retail price at a local retailer. I was happy to know that my purchase would help to support local jobs and that the sales tax would also go into our local coffers. In this time of economic hardship buying local is more important than ever.

Thanks for reading.

Are we really in a position in Lucas County to be picky about what types of jobs are coming here? For the past 20 years (maybe more), this county has led all the urban counties in unemployment. If a company wants to locate here and bring jobs, shouldn't we welcome them all?

This is not about where we shop, but about what companies want to locate here - those are two completely different things. And I don't want to see people telling a chain that they and the taxes they pay, the jobs they create, the benefits they offer are not welcome just because some (probably many) would choose to spend their dollars elsewhere when it comes time to decide whether or not to patronize a new place.

It the chain doesn't have enough shoppers to support itself and make a profit, they'll then leave on their own.

INeedCoffee - you're thinking about starting a business. What issues are you weighing in making your decision? Isn't the bottom line (whether or not you can make enough profit to survive) one of the key factors?

The best way to bring new businesses into the area (regardless of what type of business it is), is to provide an environment in which they can make enough profit to survive and then thrive. That means that they need to have access to raw materials, labor and transportion that is affordable and efficient, they need to have overhead costs (utilities, insurance, taxes, wages, benefits, etc...) that can be covered by the pricing and sales of their product and they need to actually make a profit when all those costs are subtracted from their revenue.

The lower we can make those costs, the more likely it is that companies of all kinds will come here. It's really very simple and it has nothing to do with bike paths and parks...

Another thing that people don't consider is that tax incentives for new businesses can really hurt existing businesses - regardless of whether they are a chain or a local store. When a competitor comes into town and gets a tax break because they're 'new,' the 'older' companies are instantly at a disadvantage because they are paying more (on a relative scale) than their newest competition.

Yet despite all the politicians pushing people to 'buy local' to help the local economy, they're also freely giving away tax incentives to bring in more competition for those local businesses. Talk about contradictory!

Just a few thoughts to consider....

So can I quote you in saying choosing local is not important Maggie?

Maggie - Agreed that the business friendly nature of Toledo is not quite on par. However, we're mostly talking about retail here. The reason this county leads in unemployment is because of the decline in manufacturing jobs not retail.

I don't think Josh started this thread to create a big debate about why Lucas county is so shitty and why all the (presumably Democratic) politicians are screwing it up.

I think he started it to drum up some support for a large decision he is going to make in his life.

Maggie, stop being a Negative Nancy. There's too much of that in Toledo and on this board.

Amen Joel.

AMEN indeed!

Negative Nancy?? Stop sticking your head in the sand and look at what the problems in the area really are. Pointing out facts and what the effects of what has been done in the past is a good thing. You have 40 years of prime examples to learn from, maybe you should make some changes to how things have been done in the past. Including reversing some of the laws and regulations and getting rid of the people that brought them to you to maybe bring this area out of it slump.

INeedCoffee - Why did you edit down the original posting? Now everything below it makes little sense. It's a bit disingenuous to completely change the original post.

I can't delete my comments. So, I'm stuck with my comments under a post that has been hacked up.

From INeedCoffee: What is the best way to bring in new businesses and what kind of jobs can be brought in that won't harm other existing businesses.

The best way to bring new business to Lucas county is to decide just what it is that will make the area attractive to business, which of those items the local government is able and willing to provide, then provide them with enthusiastic cooperation. Simple, right?

Suppose Lucas county wanted manufacturing industries to set up shop here. The client company wants low costs (to themselves) for labor, taxes and utilities. They also want a solid infrastructure with easy access to shipping (truck, rail, air and ocean). The company also wants freedom; which is to say a distinct lack of regulation in all facets of their process, including pollution control.

Check out Cabela's in Dundee, MI and decide why they are in Dundee rather than, say, Sylvania.

As for jobs that won't harm other businesses, bringing in a new industry or an industry that has very limited presence in Lucas county is the best answer. Likewise with a service.

In another discussion on local vs. foreign, local business is always, always preferential to foreign due to the velocity of money. There are other considerations, such as taxes and a certain loyalty among residents.

From Maggie Thurber: Another thing that people don't consider is that tax incentives for new businesses can really hurt existing businesses

And create serious ill-will. Consider: If you owned your own business and have been in Lucas county since incorporation 30 years ago, and have been paying taxes all this time, just what would be your reaction if a competitor moves in down the street and you discover that the local government is subsidizing your competitor? I'd raise some serious hell over that one, then I'd begin researching relocation to an area where I was appreciated.

From Maggie Thurber: If a company wants to locate here and bring jobs, shouldn't we welcome them all?

No, we should not. There are any number of industries I would not want anywhere close to Lucas county, mainly because of pollution, an increase in crime and/or damage to existing businesses.

One example is a mega-store. When a mega-store moves in real estate prices fall in the surrounding area, traffic increases and local competitors either move or go out of business from the competition. Then when the mega-store is no longer turning the kind of profit the corporation thinks it should, it closes. Now the local residents have nothing. Local business no longer exists, tax money was spent on infrastructure that is no longer needed, crime is up along with unemployment, tax revenue goes down and the community is stuck with a real blight in the form of a giant, empty brick, glass and steel box.

What if the mega-store doesn't go under? Then the local residents still get shafted because what was once a nice neighborhood is now a high traffic area during the day and a an giant, empty parking lot at night. Both are equally ugly.

Another example is the casino. Casinos increase crime, hire very few people relative to their size and produce nothing except an area for vice. Don't believe me? Check the crime statistics for Las Vegas.

Or how about a coke plant, which is great if you're nuts about pollution and cancer. Here's a link to a story about the folks who live next door to a coke plant.

In short, no, we should not be too picky or too quick to allow a business to open in Lucas county. We should be extremely selective, because the decisions we make now will affect us for one or more generations.

Can't agree with madjack. I'll take any kind of business, even a cokeplant.

INeedCoffee, you shouldn't have edited your original post.

Madjack - I agree with you mostly. We should be selective.

I think it is important to think about what Lucas county wants to attract in the same way that a business thinks about what type of client it wants to attract.

I would say that the best plans for growth revolve around clarity of decision and specialization. It is not the best decision to try to attract every business to Lucas county. There are just too many types of businesses out there for Lucas county to be able to satisfy the needs of every one of them. So then, Lucas county needs to choose clarity and specialize. Lucas county needs to choose a few, maybe 1 or 2, specific industries that would be a good fit for the area based on what we have to offer and what an industry can bring to the county.

Think about the of the successful and growing cities in the United States and what they have in common. Most of the cities that are successful and are seeing continued prosperity specialize in a limited number of specific industries that the city or geographical area is well suited to supporting. And in turn those successful cities are well known to industry insiders as well as the general public as being "the place" to be if you want to do this type of business.

Some examples:

Los Angeles = Entertainment Industry
San Francisco Bay Area = Computer Industry
Georgia = (the new) Auto Industry
Seattle = Microsoft
Perrysburg = Solar panels (largest manufacturer in the US)
Youngstown = Correctional Institute
West Virginia = Coal

Once upon a time, depending on the era, when Americans thought of Toledo they thought of our city as a national leader in a few different industrial sectors. Toledo was once the largest manufacturer of bicycles, once known for the great Jeep, and once known for glass manufacturing. Toledo and Lucas county have a long history of choosing industries that were a good fit for our area. We prospered from those industries and when they were no longer viable we found another one to keep us going. This is what we need to find today.

We don't need to try to attract the next Bass Pro Shop or Cabela's or fast food chain. We need to figure out what we have and how to market it to a few select industries. Is it Solar? Is it healthcare? Green manufacturing? Yo Yos? Gumballs? Maybe someday it will simply be an abundance of fresh water (Great Lakes contain %70 of the world's fresh water supply.)

What do you think? What's Lucas county great at doing? What 1 or 2 specific industries should we court? What do we want to be nationally or globally recognized for?

Linecrosser - I agree that some laws and regulations in Lucas county are outdated and cumbersome. But, ask Maggie about changing the laws. Based on her experience from Lucas County Commissioners she can probably tell you that it easier said than done. So in the mean time pointing out what is old news to me isn't going to bring about the forward momentum needed to attract new business and support our current business owners.

Talk to Gerken, Wozniak, Konop, Bell, Brown, McNamara, Waniewski, Martinez, Craig, Ludeman, Sorantu, Ashford, Collins, Steel, Copeland, and Webb about changing the laws.

Talk to Gerken, Wozniak, Konop, Bell, Brown, McNamara, Waniewski, Martinez, Craig, Ludeman, Sorantu, Ashford, Collins, Steel, Copeland, and Webb about changing the laws.

Maybe I could also talk to a brick wall. Would accomplish the same thing. Unless we're talking about changing Arizona laws--they have no problem voting on that (at least at the commissioner level).

Why I said changing the people in charge, the old democrat regime has failed us over the long run, maybe its time to start fresh. With a fresh group willing to look at and change some of the outdated stuff. If you like the status quo then you deserve all you get.

Linecrosser - I've put forward ideas. You have not. Consider going back to your first comment in this thread and changing "YOU"s to "I"s. Then you make a difference in this county.

joelwashing - Would you have made the same decision to "buy local" if the local was a bricks and mortar chain such as Best Buy as opposed to an internet seller? When I shop I try to buy "independant" vs chain. Until my recent retirement I was a local business owner. I can guarantee that the money stays here. We offered better wages for comparable work and paid better benefits. Please give your "Independant" business your dollars whenever possible. Try Churchills, Sautters, Kazmaeirs, instead of Kroger's or Walmart or Golden Eagle. If budgets are tight, and whose isn't, and you must go for the cheapest then give Costo a shot. At least they are a much more socially responsible employer than Walmart and Sams Club. What goes around does come around. The jobs you save could include your own.

Joel your an idiot, I dont like in ohio.

live, i dont live in ohio.

holland - I'm with you all the way. Sometimes you have to go Costco or Best Buy. But, yes when I say buy local I mean locally owned or independent business.

I buy my coffee from Flying Rhino who are local coffee roasters, I try to go to the Andersons instead of Home Depot, Mac Cafe instead of Best Buy for Apple products, locally owned restaurants, and the list goes on.

I think hard about the stores and business that I support and sometimes it takes a little more work and driving. But, I personally know the people that I'm buying from and I know that they care about me and the service I receive. It's a win win situation. The money stays here and I get great products and service in return.

Could agree with you more holland.

Btw, Linecrosser, so what you're saying is that I'm an idiot because you have just now elected to inform me that you don't live in Ohio?

There's that Negative Nancy thing again.

It's too bad that there are people on this board that so quickly resort to childish name calling. I really prefer civility.

I'm with Maggie on this.

As far as local vs chain goes, what are we talking about? You say Andersons over Home Depot and Lowes? How many employess does Home Depot have in the area vs Andersons in their home improvement center?

Lastly, I laugh at studies that contain the wording, "Every dollar spent here puts "X" amount back into the local economy." This has to be the most unscientific study ever. I place it right beside politicians when they say, "Last year we spent a million dollars. This year we estimated spending 4 million. So we went back and changed it to 2 million. See, we saved everyone 2 million dollars."
I laugh and laugh.

As far as buying locally, be careful. There is no law that states Andersons has to buy their produce from Ohio and Michigan. In fact, I'm sure they are buying wherever they can find it cheap too.

Joel who resorted to name calling? Nancy.

buying local food isn't the issue, and it's silly to bring up.

buying local DOES affect the local economy WAY more than buying from a chain that has a local branch. we're not just talking toledo employee wages... we're talking about CEO wages (not based here) etc

also... local businesses understand the city way better. Look at the anderson's expanding their garden centers. They get the demand and are reinvesting back into toledo. If the business is based in texas or new york, they are going to reinvest there first.

PLUS local business rarely get the previously mentioned tax breaks so more money comes into the area. when big box places come in, they often negotiate different breaks. correct me if i'm wrong.

Upso is right.

hockeyfan - I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but you would really rather just assume that it's not better for Toledo to "buy local" because you don't trust studies?

Simply put: Local businesses are owned by people who live in this community, are less likely to leave, and are more invested in the community’s future. (from http://toledochooselocal.org)

joelwashing, it's nice that you have enough disposable income to spend an extra $150 just because an item was sold locally, not all of us have that luxury. I am a bargain shopper and scan the ads every Sunday to see what is on sale where. If it means having to shop at 2 or 3 different places for my groceries, then so be it if it saves my family money. More often than not, the cheapest prices are at WalMart but every once in a great while, I have luck at Walt Churchill's Market and Anderson's. Just because a chain/big box store isn't local doesn't mean they're evil or less deserving of our business. They employ a huge amount of local people, for which I am thankful.

WalMart having the cheapest prices is a myth. And if they are cheaper it is not by much anymore. People are just trained to beleive that. Even if it costs a few dollars more to go elsewhere it is worth it, the piddly savings is not worth supporting that legal monopoly.

Yeah, Ryan, you're right. WalMart low prices are a myth. Frozen items that are $9.99 at Kroger are $6.99 or lower. Coke products have been $5 or lower for 24 packs for over two straight months now. I must be imagining things.

I guess I should have said “as a whole”. Of course they will have some things lower just like other stores will.

No hate, just sayin’.

Pop is gross, btw. :0

Maggie pointed out some facts - while they may also be her opinion, they are facts nonetheless.

I don't see how that can be construed as being a Negative Nancy. Nor do I see anything in her post that stated buying local is not important.

Perhaps some of you have an option on your computers that allows you to see things that my monitor does not display....

As others touched on in their responses: folks, we've continued to elect and re-elect the same basic group of politicians in this area for far too long and, where has that gotten us? On the brink of financial collapse, a declining population, manufacturing jobs evaporating and an anti-business climate that scares the hell out of any new major player thinking about locating here.

Until we change that, NW Ohio will continue its economic decline and shriveling population base - especially those of us who work and pay taxes. Take a look around you - we have a very affordable cost of living standard here - when compared to most areas including just over the line in Michigan; we have two of the most heavily travelled interstates in the country, an airport with nothing but room to grow, a waterfront port that can rival that of most any larger city with such access; rail systems galore, a downtown waterfront that goes largely unused; a skilled labor force; centrally located just hours from several major cities and tens of millions of people; a world class zoo and art museum; the list goes on and on.

Yet, here we sit dying on the vine. I've been in Toledo for 30 years now waiting for the day I might see the situation change and it continues to get worse. And, please don't tell me the entire country is in this shape because it isn't. There are areas that are thriving and have nearly full employment - at our expense.

The status quo in this area simply can not continue if we are to survive, let alone thrive. High paying manufacturing jobs are great for everyone but the salad days we enjoyed during that period are gone - and they aren't coming back.

What's required is out of the box thinking to attract (and maintain what's left) new industry to the area - whatever it may be. And, for government to get the hell out of the way and allow that to happen.

And, for the voters to cease sending and returning the same bunch of empty promise politicians to elected office. If we do not, then, as posted above, we deserve whatever we get.

Excellent post Foodie. I agree 100%!!! Some people don't like to hear the truth, instead like to call others names and label them as negative.

"... not all of us have that luxury."

And as taxes in Toledo/Lucas County continue to rise, fewer people will have that luxury. My thoughts from previous posts :

Toledoans can change buying habits to find savings that will help offset increases in income and property taxes. Do more comparison shopping. Shop more at big box chain stores, instead of the small, local, independent businesses if money can be saved. Shop more over the Web for the same reason.

If you can save 5 to 10 percent or more a month by eschewing small, local businesses, well, that may be an unfortunate but necessary change in shopping habits. At some point, households "selfishly" have to think about themselves. [T]ax increases may cause Walmart to gain more fans, which is an ironic situation for Toledo.

Higher taxes have obviously not helped Toledo in the past, so why would anyone think more taxes will help Toledo now? Higher taxes will cause more residents and maybe small businesses to flee Toledo. The fleeing citizens take their spending power with them, which hurts the small, local independent businesses those residents may have supported. And even if residents don't move, they may have to change their spending ways and spend more at the cheaper chain stores to offset tax increases.

Maybe the local business owners don't have time to follow local politics. Maybe they don't mind higher taxes. But I'd like to see at least some of the local businesses band together and speak out as one voice in opposition to tax levies when they come up.

@Madjack-Just some trivia regarding Cabela's:
I was in on the Cabela's project from early on, and I learned a lot by keeping my mouth shut listening to the corporate officials. The decision to come to the NW Ohio/SW Michigan region was based largely on the incredible amount of catalog business generated by the area over the past twenty years.

Early on, their first choice location was in Maumee at the SW corner of Dussel Drive and Ford St., where I think a Cracker Barrel sits now. Keeping the location as close to as many major interstate crossroads as possible also made the Maumee site attractive.

Anyhow, unable to make a deal in Maumee they fanned out over the area, looking for a suitable location. Cabela's is based in Nebraska where land is a relatively abundant resource, so when the Corp. saw how prices went up the closer to the lake they got, they went inland, and found Dundee.

As the story goes, people had been trying for years to purchase the piece of land where the store now sits from the farmer who owned it to no avail. So some reps from Cabela's knock on his door, talk hunting and fishing, lay on the good 'ol boy shtick, and low and behold it turns out the guy has been a Cabela's customer for years and...the rest is history.

At the time Cabela's was still privately held, recorded annual sales in the hundreds of millions, and had but six retail stores (Dundee is #7). Dick and Jim still ran the business with a hands-on, vest-pocket mentality and seemingly made million dollar decisions on a whim. On at least one occasion during the final construction and layout of the store, major decisions were held up for weeks because a document was sitting on the Cabela's desk back in Nebraska waiting for a signature, one or both of the Cabela's away on a hunting trip in some exotic locale.

At the time, informed insider speculation was that the chain would never have more than ten or twelve stores in order to keep their "exclusive destination" vibe. When the Dundee store opened it was stocked with literally hundreds of incredibly knowledgeable and dedicated sportspeople. Although the pay was low, we had great medical and 401k.

Then they went public, and finally made the decision to get down in the dirt with Bass Pro - and to a lesser extent Wally World - with unchecked retail expansion and pricing. I have no idea who the staff is and/or what benefits and pay are like anymore.

A little more info from the study joelwashing mentioned earlier, or this is from a different study:

Thackeray's closed in 2005.

Funny, I worked part-time at Thackery's for years too. It's loss was a crime. The owner literally provided us with the best retail environment I've ever been involved in, and the employees actually loved working there. And, unlike McBarnes and Yarnell, it actually had a little character and flavor directly reflective of it's employees and Toledo.
Not only local, it was a world-class independent bookstore.

Great info from Savage, jr, foodie, and dell_diva.

We've pretty much run the gamut with this topic. Conclusion seems to be that Toledoans would rather send their dollars of area to save a few bucks. Fair enough.

But, I'll keep shopping local as much as I can and enjoying the extraordinary service and value that I get from my fellow community members.

As will I jw - whenever possible and economically feasible.

What I won't do is pay triple the big box chain price to the local guy. I realize that is rarely the case but I have seen it.

INeedCoffee, back to your original question... i'm currently working on a plan to open a business downtown... hopefully opening this fall. One big thing i'm looking at is what other similar business are not doing and trying to fill those gaps. Without being too vague, I think it's important to find a niche and try to fill it. For example, Andrew Z is doing breakfast pizza. That's a good call for downtown, as there currently aren't many breakfast options.

So, whatever type of business you are thinking of opening, if job creation is a big motivator for you, try to figure out how to make your business stand out. Can you create something that has no competition? If so, you're on your way to new jobs.

Actually I thought that breakfast idea tanked. I don’t think they are open in the morning anymore.

I still don’t get your theory that to be considered a “new job” it has to be something never done before. That is taking the word “new” a little too literal. I know quite a few people thankful for the “old jobs” created by Andrew Zs and the like.

SavageFred - I think that land (where cracker barrel is) was owned by the White Family of White Family dealerships? Can't remember.

Hey, I'll support your business Coffee! You let me know when you have a banner or sign and I'll get with you and put it up at the rink.
It might not bring thousands of customers, but it'll get some exposure from 280, the website and people who come there.
I'd be glad to do the same for any other locally owned business. Like I said, it may not bring you customers by the thousands, but it couldn't hurt.

Well, let's take a look at Lowe's v Anderson's. All the top executives of Lowe's live in North Carolina. The Anderson's executives live in Northwest Ohio and Southeast Michigan. The doctors, lawyers, schools, grocery stores, lawn services, car dealerships, hockey rinks etc. that Lowe's executives employ are located in North Carolina. The doctors, lawyers, schools, grocery stores, lawn services, car dealerships, hockey rinks etc. that Anderson's executives support are located here. The doctors, lawyers, schools, grocery stores, lawn services, car dealerships, hockey rinks in North Carolina spend their money in North Carolina. The doctors, lawyers, schools, grocery stores, lawn services, car dealerships, hockey rinks in Northwest Ohio spend their money in Northwest Ohio.

You don't have to spend all your money on locally owned businesses, but the more you support locally owned business, the more you support your community.

that's very cool of you hockeyfan

Well put Ace_Face.

"Conclusion seems to be that Toledoans would rather send their dollars of area to save a few bucks. Fair enough."

That's not what I implied nor theorized with my comments. Unlike governments, households, at least some of them, have to follow a budget. For these budget-minded people, they may need to be more concerned with how much they can buy with the money they have and less concerned about keeping dollars local. Maybe they would like to support local businesses, but they cannot afford it. And with taxes continuing to increase in Toledo/Lucas County, that means less money to spend on local businesses. Seems like simple mathematics to me.

Anyway, I can't agree with Madjack about welcoming, purely because it's not our business in the form of government representation to tell WHICH businesses may come here and set up shop.

As long as the business is legally complaint with a necessary minimum of laws, the rest of literally none of our frakking concern.

Because if we do make it our business, soon enough, your little shop will be targeted with a local ordinance and put out of business, purely on some ideological whim.

If we go that way, then we should just call ourselves the People's Republic of Toledo and let outright Commissars run around and run things on the basis of how their digestion ran from the last night's meal.

Unfortunately, GuestZero, this has already been going on in Toledo - convenience stores and daycares were the victims of unfair stipulations and moratoriums recently.

I've wondered about this. These "local" businesses that make profits, and invest them out of the region, then retire to Florida or southern California. Do they take their profits with them, or do they keep them invested in our region? The world (and individuals) are more complicated than "local".

Which businesses are you referring to? Of course some people retire and take their money with them... but we're talking about active businesses based in Toledo.

I imagine that while some Ohio executives may retire to Florida, quite a few stay. But I bet not too many Florida executives retire to Ohio.

In this day and age of information at an instant, prices are kept as low as possible from competition.
The Andersons is not going to sell a "drill" for $100 while Home Depot and Lowes will sell one for $50. I've shopped at all three and found that if you're willing to shop around, you might get a deal on some products, but pay a little more on others.
No store has the "inside" secret on doing something cheaper or able to buy something cheaper.
There is no loyalty with money. If Home Depot wanted to buy the Anderson stores for a decent price, do you really think Andersons would say, "No, I'm not selling because I love Toledo and the people there."
And until you can put microchips on money for tracking, who can really say where the money is going?

If Home Depot wanted to buy the Anderson stores for a decent price, do you really think Andersons would say, "No, I'm not selling because I love Toledo and the people there."

If it were up to the Anderson family itself, I bet they would.

A dead horse just called, they wanted the beating to stop.

Ha. Exactly one more post was made after your last one and now you call for the conversation to stop because its a dead horse?! Especially amusing since Ace Face made such a good point. Were you the kid that would get mad when they lost and take the ball home?

the dead horse post was an attempt at humor.

Your constant battle with my posts gets annoying. Instead of attacking individuals, why not just stick to the topic being discussed for once.

Were you the kid that got beat up all the time and then found a keyboard to hide behind and be a jerk?

I've enjoyed catching up on the thread especially since my comments seemed to generate much of the discussion. I also think, for the most part, the discussion has been respectful and that is appreciated.

I believe that individuals should make decisions about where they buy things based upon their own needs and their ability to afford the cost. Some choose local and some choose chains. YOU should be able to make those decisions without others dictating to you - or trying to make you feel guilty - for your choice. It's YOUR money and you should be able to spend it as you choose - as should others with their own money.

While I understand the desire of some people to determine which businesses and what 'kinds' of businesses we 'allow' into our community, that decision is not usually made by the community - or, rather, the market. That decision is often made by politicians who 'purport' to be representing the people because they got voted into office. But for every person who thinks a Wal-Mart is a 'bad' business, there is another who would welcome it as a 'good' business. What usually ends up happening is that the politician decides based upon their own opinion - or based upon the loudest group with an opinion. So who, exactly, is the politician representing when they support/oppose such stores? As Shakespeare says, "aye, there's the rub."

Brian Wilson is correct when he says it's not WHAT is decided but WHO gets to decide.

So that is why I said that 'we' should tell any business that wants to come here that their taxes, jobs, etc... are welcome. Let the PEOPLE then decide if the business will be successful or not, through their decision to shop there.

I believe 'we the people' should be the ones to make that decision through our patronage of the company. And if there isn't enough people buying, the company will go away on its own.

Does that mean that some local store might be negatively impacted by the new competition that might come into town? Yes. But there are things the 'old' business can do to effectively compete. And if they can't or won't effectively compete, why should the government protect that firm? When government interferes to prevent competition, it is the consumers who suffer. Besides, the consumers are much smarter than the government, so it makes sense to let them decide.

Of course, there is then the contradiction that I brought up originally. Politicians and some groups seem to think that local companies should be 'protected' from chains, but don't think other, existing businesses should be 'protected' from unfair competition generated by the government when it gives tax breaks to the new business. That's a much more 'unfair' competition than any chain coming into town and is a slap in the face to the company that has been 'loyal' to the community all along.

But this just highlights that government is really bad at such things and shouldn't take sides or try to pick the winners and the losers in the marketplace.

As for the 'choose local' campaign, I think it's fine that local businesses have joined together to promote themselves. What they are doing is competing in a manner that they believe will help them. Though I take exception to politicians joining in the effort because you then have elected individuals who are supposed to be representing ALL picking and choosing who they're really 'representing.'

As for me personally, I believe in buying local when it makes sense and buying from 'chains' when that makes sense.

My loyalty to a business is not based solely upon whether or not they are local or even upon their price. As any smart business owner knows, so much more goes into building customer loyalty (like customer service, knowledge or experience, reputation, quality, etc...) than those two things. If a company is going to be successful, it won't be because of some ad campaign telling people to 'buy local.'

MaggieThurber, does this mean that we should look askance at supporting the loan to Eyde for the Fiberglass Tower? Aren't our leaders, in essence, giving tax breaks to Eyde since he will get a lower rate of interest than through a commercial loan?

oldsendbrdy - I've already commented on that on my blog. I oppose the guarantee of the loan because Toledo has enough debt already and no money to cover the loan if the development of the tower isn't successful.

http://thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com/2010/06/doesnt-toledo-have-enough-debt-already.html

From MaggieThurber: What usually ends up happening is that the politician decides based upon their own opinion - or based upon the loudest group with an opinion. So who, exactly, is the politician representing when they support/oppose such stores?

Is this anything like the squeaky wheel and the grease?

Maggie makes a good point. Failing any other input, the elected official will do as they like. The catch to this is that virtually all politicos know this and insulate themselves accordingly. They don't want commentary from the great unwashed, and some don't make too many bones about it.

Try this for an example: Point your browser at the official Lucas County web site (or click here) and see how easy it is to find a name, mailing address, phone number and email for our three elected county commissioners. These three should be listed on the front page in a large type font, with the pronouncement that The Buck Stops Here! along with the promise that if you can't find it or get it solved, call me and I'll answer the phone.

These three don't even bother to publish an email address.

So, next election I plan to vote for someone who will at least answer the phone when I call.