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Two Killed as Car Hurtles Into Pole

Article about stolen car and deaths that followed

"Stolen, speeding vehicle breaks into pieces in South Toledo

By BRIDGET THARPand MIKE SIGOV
BLADE STAFF WRITERS

Javaughn Jones had been behind the wheel of a stolen vehicle before.

When he was just 14, records show, he was in and out of juvenile court and was convicted for grand theft auto and petty theft.

Tuesday, the 16-year-old from central Toledo was the backseat passenger in a stolen, speeding auto that slammed into a utility pole, splitting the vehicle into several pieces that scattered across two city blocks in the Old South End. He was the lone survivor among the three in the car.

The Jones youth was thrown 100 feet from the vehicle and was critically injured.

Two young men in the front seat were killed. They were identified only by their fingerprints and tattoos after the impact tossed them several feet and face down onto the pavement on Broadway near Field Avenue.

Witness Juanita Kneisley, 24, of Boalt Street, found her way onto the scene after she heard the screech of tires before 3 a.m. in her home a block away. She said she was horrified as she watched the impact, which she said sent the front, back, and middle sections of the vehicle “skipping across Broadway.”

“The images are stuck in my head,” Ms. Kneisley said.

The middle section wrapped around a metal street-light pole at Field, near where the two bodies were found, one in the street and the other at the curb. The back and front sections continued down the block to Walbridge Avenue, where the survivor was found in the street, police said.
Ms. Kneisley stood back as a friend rushed to comfort the Jones youth, who suffered two broken legs.

Markeon Antonious Chaney, 19, and Gregory Williams, 19, both of central Toledo, were dead at the scene.
The families of the victims declined or did not respond to requests for comment.

It was initially unclear which of the deceased was driving the vehicle, and none of the victims carried any form of identification, police said.

Mr. Chaney was identified through fingerprints, and Mr. Williams was identified by photos of tattoos that were shown to his family, Steve Kahle, a Lucas County coroner's investigator, said. Autopsies are planned for Wednesday.

A man who identified himself as a family friend when he answered the door at the Jones residence said the youth was in surgery Tuesday and likely would face amputation of one or both of his legs.

He was listed in critical condition Tuesday night in Mercy St. Vincent Medical Center, a hospital spokesman said.

The wrecked car was reportedly stolen Monday between 6 and 10 p.m. from Aladdin's Eatery, 4038 Talmadge Rd.

Maryam Farhat, 25, a restaurant employee who owned the car, says it had been driven more than 220,000 miles.

The owner of the stolen vehicle, Maryam Farhat, 25, is a University of Toledo accounting student who works part time as a dishwasher at the restaurant. She said she initially thought a friend was playing a joke when she noticed the vehicle was missing from behind the eatery after she finished her shift late Monday.

She said she didn't know why someone would want to steal the older vehicle she's driven for about a year, a Honda Accord with more than 220,000 miles.

“There were a lot of cars next to [mine] that were better,” she told The Blade.
Her sister called her about 4:30 a.m. when she recognized the vehicle during television reports about the accident in South Toledo.

“It was a shock,” Ms. Farhat said.

The vehicle was traveling between 80 and 100 miles per hour at the time of the crash, investigators have estimated, although it was unknown why the vehicle was traveling so fast. It probably will take accident investigators until Friday to determine the speed at the time of the crash, Toledo Police Traffic Lt. Jeff Sulewski said.

Smaller pieces of the car surround the front end. The midsection was wrapped around a pole on Field, the back continued down Broadway. Officials estimate the car’s speed at 80 to 100 mph.

The accident is among the worst in his 25 years with the department.

“I haven't seen anything like it before,” Lieutenant Sulewski said. “I've seen some pretty violent accidents.”

Police said they believe the teenagers were taking a joy ride at the time.

A small crowd of onlookers watched police work at the crash scene Tuesday.
Frank Lesinszki, 50, one of those who called 911, said he was sleeping and had just rolled over when he heard “Boom!”

“I looked out of the window and saw what looked like a garbage can to me, right in the street. Then I looked again and went, ‘Gosh! That's a car!'” Mr. Lesinszki said.


Frank Lesinszki, who lives on Walbridge Avenue, heard the crash and went to help the lone survivor.

All of those in the wrecked vehicle had criminal backgrounds that started at age 14, Lucas County Juvenile Court Administrator Dan Pompa said.

The Jones youth appeared consistently in juvenile court throughout 2008, until he reportedly moved to Nevada to live with a relative, Mr. Pompa said.

He was found delinquent in relation to misdemeanor auto theft and misdemeanor vehicle trespass — a charge which had been reduced from grand theft auto in April, 2008, Mr. Pompa said.
He was delinquent on another grand theft auto charge and petty theft in May, 2008.

He was delinquent of disorderly conduct and criminal trespass in January, 2008, delinquent of petty theft in February, and delinquent of criminal trespass and unauthorized use of property in March.

More than a dozen other various charges against the Jones youth were dismissed between January and August, 2008, including assault, drug possession, disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, criminal damage, and criminal trespass.

He faces a criminal damage charge, for which he was scheduled to appear Thursday in Lucas County Juvenile Court, Mr. Pompa said.
Mr. Chaney was arrested July 16 after pulling a shotgun out of the waistband of his sweatpants and pointing it at a man at 1710 Calumet Ave., court records show. Witnesses tackled him and detained him until police arrived.

He was convicted of violating a protection order and possession of weapons in a public place and was released from Lucas County jail on probation Aug. 5. He was to appear next month for sentencing on the protection order violation before Toledo Municipal Court Judge Amy Berling.

The other man killed Tuesday, Mr. Williams, was found delinquent in connection with obstruction of official business in September, 2006."

Wow, this really hits home. I have a step-nephew that could end up like these two. His paternal grandmother called, worried that he might be one of the victims yesterday morning (along with two younger brothers). I went on the Internet immediately, but did not find much until they published the survivor's name (I saw it about 11:00).

I would be concerned if I were the woman who had the car stolen. Did she secure it well enough, or will an unlocked car be grounds for a suit by the deceased's family members against her? Shouldn't she have had a car in better condition so that when it was stolen the thieves would not have been victims of the vehicle's mechanical defects? If I were her I would engage an attorney to prepare her defense.

created by oldsendbrdy on Aug 25, 2010 at 11:59:27 am
updated by oldsendbrdy on Aug 27, 2010 at 11:11:03 am
    News     Comments: 69

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Comments ... #

All that for a shitty old car with over 220,000 miles. Things like this are shockingly stupid, and a waste of ones life. I must be growing callous as I age, because as I reviewed the information about the 'thugs' deaths I couldn't help but think "welp, that is one way to save the system time and money". It's a cold thing to think.

What went wrong in their lives to end up like this, dead over a junk car? Were they just bad seeds? Bad parents? Whatever the case maybe, it's over now.

posted by OhioKimono on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:11:51 pm     #  

Bad parenting, or no parenting.

posted by madjack on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:17:33 pm     #  

"Witness Juanita Kneisley, 24, of Boalt Street, found her way onto the scene after she heard the screech of tires before 3 a.m. in her home a block away. She said she was horrified as she watched the impact, which she said sent the front, back, and middle sections of the vehicle “skipping across Broadway.”

“The images are stuck in my head,” Ms. Kneisley said.

Couple things here - #1, how the hell do you hear tires screeching, run a block and still make it there in time to see the impact?

#2 - if you are in bed at 0300 and hear tires screeching and a sickening crash what do YOU do? Do you get up, get dressed and walk a block from home? Do you call 911? Stay in bed and say a prayer? Stay in bed and bitch about some morons waking you up?

I dont know what I'd do in that situ.

posted by billy on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:33:09 pm     #  

People got off being good parents with whole "it takes a village" excuse. No, it takes you knuckling up and doing the tough (and often painful) things needed to raise a respectful and productive child. Many nights was I too tired to go over homework or do the little things to help them be successful but you just had to suck it up and do them because you love them.

The problem is most parents know more about their favorite American Idol than they do their own children.

posted by dbw8906 on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:34:18 pm     #  

That was an excellent bit of investigative reporting by The Blade, to find out that the car had 212,000 miles on the odometer.

posted by CharlesBronson on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:35:33 pm     #  

I am sure it is somehow TPS's fault.

posted by ShonuffisDead on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:44:55 pm     #  

"... car had 212,000 miles on the odometer."

And no surprise that it was a Honda.

posted by jr on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:45:14 pm     #  

Actually yes, it was good they included that. Showed just how stupid it was that they stole a beat car like that and not some fine ride. Adds to the pointlessness of the whole thing.

posted by Ryan on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:48:57 pm     #  

80 to 100mph thru a neighborhood is a "joy ride"? Yikes.

"More than a dozen other various charges against the Jones youth were dismissed between January and August, 2008, including assault, drug possession, disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, criminal damage, and criminal trespass."

"Mr. Chaney was arrested July 16 after pulling a shotgun out of the waistband of his sweatpants and pointing it at a man at 1710 Calumet Ave., court records show. Witnesses tackled him and detained him until police arrived."

What kind of life must you have to assume life is worth nothing? To endanger people by driving fast through a neighborhood? To point a sawed-off (from your SWEATPANTS for fuck's sake) at another person? What kind of people raise these monsters?

There is no legislation to solve this. There is no authority to turn to. The idea that life is precious is a moral distinction, not a legal one, although we may protect it legally. No morals, no values other than thrills, power, & money = more of this in the future.

############

On a completely separate issue:

"Mr. Chaney was identified through fingerprints, and Mr. Williams was identified by photos of tattoos that were shown to his family, Steve Kahle, a Lucas County coroner's investigator, said.

Possibly the most poorly-constructed sentence I have ever seen in a metropolitan newspaper...and there are other examples in this piece. Is "editor" a ceremonial position at the Blade or do they actually do something? Such as teach them how to organize a sentence w/o commas. For example:

"Lucas County coroner's investigator Steve Kahle said Mr. Chaney was identified through fingerprints and Mr. Williams was identified by photos of tattoos that were shown to his family."

JRB--I'm available for $100,000 a year and I promise I'll actually make your paper readable.

posted by oldhometown on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:50:30 pm     #  

There are social pluses and minuses. These guys careers in crime ended abruptly. Maybe the person who had the protection order against Mr. Chaney will not have to worry now (or she may have other guys to worry about). Mr. Jones won't have to worry about appearing in court on Thursday. Mr. Jones will probably be supported by the taxpayers of this state (or another state) if he has one or both legs amputated. He won't have to worry about employment ever again. Maybe he will become a productive citizen, but I don't have my hopes up.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Aug 25, 2010 at 12:59:11 pm     #  

I want to take time to tell you about Greg Williams and what I know from that Monday night. Greg had spent the night over my sister's house. He was there helping my niece with her homework, because that is the type of young man he was. My daughter Toni joked with him, that the only reason he was over was for the fried chicken that had for dinner. They both had a laugh. Greg stayed till about 11:30pm. He was killed 4 hours later. So we know Greg was not the one that stole the car, just with the wrong people in the wrong place.

Greg loved his family and was very close to them, he was either with his brothers, at his Grandfathers or spending the night over his Uncle Darryl's and Aunt Vicki's. He had a big heart, big enough to love and call his Uncle's extended family his own (that would be my family). Greg loved to wear his hair in braids, his smile was a mile wide, his eyes always showed love and his demeanor was as shy and timid as a mouse. Greg was not the so called "Thug" that you mentioned. He was with the wrong friends at the wrong time.

Tears will flow rivers for Greg.

R.I.P. Gregory Williams

posted by ToledoLatina on Aug 25, 2010 at 01:11:31 pm     #  

Dirtbag jones will sue Honda over faulty vehicle and/or the city of toledo for not having "break-away" utility poles.
Can't wait for friends and family to be on foxnews telling everyone how kind they were and how they made everyone laugh and what a tragedy this is.

posted by hockeyfan on Aug 25, 2010 at 01:12:24 pm     #  

Oh, like I just did above your post. So sorry!

posted by ToledoLatina on Aug 25, 2010 at 01:31:29 pm     #  

I wonder why the coroner always performs autopsies in cases like this. It's obvious these guys died as a result of the accident.

Even in cases where it's just an unfortunate auto accident, involving an ordinary person, who was just riding along in their car. If a close family member or friend died in an auto accident, I probably wouldn't want the coroner to do an autopsy.

In a way, they're adding insult to injury......and desecrating someone's body.

Sure, I can understand how a family member might want to know if their loved one had a stroke or heart attack, while driving, which caused an accident. Maybe insurance companies need this information (cause of death) before they can payout on life insurance policies.

Still.......if it's obvious someone got messed-up really bad in an accident, and died as a result of those injuries, the autopsy sometimes seems rather pointless.

posted by CharlesBronson on Aug 25, 2010 at 01:41:18 pm     #  

ToledoLatina, that is tragic. It goes to show the importance of parents knowing where their kids are, and being involved in their life....and more importantly keeping company with those of good character.

posted by OhioKimono on Aug 25, 2010 at 01:41:23 pm     #  

I am truly sorry for your lose ToledoLatina.

Sometimes this board shows you how self righteous and smug most who post here are. I never knew of so many people that were born perfect.

And I am sorry you had to see that as well.

posted by Ryan on Aug 25, 2010 at 02:01:48 pm     #  

Charles, they need to do autopsies to make sure drugs and alcohol were not a factor.

posted by upso on Aug 25, 2010 at 02:07:30 pm     #  

The following is a quote from Gregory Williams Facebook:

TODAY GOIN TO BE OFF THE CHAIN IM ON MA WAY TO THE HOOD YOU KNOW 1200 PAGE AND SEE WATS GUD OVA THERE AND THEN IM GOIN TO FIND THEM LAME ASS KENT NIGGAS I TRY TO KILL ONE OF THE HOE ASS NIGGA FO SHO SO IF YOU NIGGAS SEE ON DA NEWS A NIGGA FROM THE NORTH DIE TO NITE JUST PRAY FOR ME CUZ I ANT GOIN DOWN WIT OUT A FIGHT

posted by jennygirlmarie on Aug 25, 2010 at 03:29:13 pm     #  

You are a real piece of shit Jenny. And to think you have a young child. I hope you teach her to be kinder than you are.

You saw ToledoLatinas post.

Idiot.

posted by Ryan on Aug 25, 2010 at 03:41:19 pm     #  

Got a link to the facebook profile to back up that claim/post?

posted by OhioKimono on Aug 25, 2010 at 04:15:58 pm     #  

Always two sides to every story.

posted by Hoops on Aug 25, 2010 at 04:16:49 pm     #  

Check "The Wall" for June 30, 1:30 PM for the above quote. There is a more current one (in bad taste) for Aug. 20, at 1:09 PM "IF YOU DONT WONT YO BITCH TO GET FUCKED DONT LIVE HER AT HOME ALONE CAUSE IF SHE CALL ME YOU BATTER BELIVE IM GOIM TO FUCK HER!!!! TO THEM LAMES WHO KEEP ASKIN ME IF I FUCKED THEY BITCH (LOL) I ANT PLAYIN"

posted by oldsendbrdy on Aug 25, 2010 at 04:20:05 pm     #  

His info also states he is attending UT College of Medicine. Lots of falsehood on Facebook, I bet.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Aug 25, 2010 at 04:22:26 pm     #  

NM

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000592827376&ref=search

Make up your own mind.

posted by OhioKimono on Aug 25, 2010 at 04:22:46 pm     #  

Direct from his facebook wall - "FUCK DA WORLD IS ALL ABOUT ME SO GET OVA IT"
"HIGH IS FUCK JUST GOT UP"

http://www.myspace.com/bossazzniggafromdanorth/photos/32815981 his former myspace that was linked on facebook

posted by OhioKimono on Aug 25, 2010 at 04:31:54 pm     #  

Pardon http://www.myspace.com/bossazzniggafromdanorth/

posted by OhioKimono on Aug 25, 2010 at 04:33:04 pm     #  

Are we sure thats him? His myspace profile says he's 21.

posted by upso on Aug 25, 2010 at 04:56:59 pm     #  

Upso, he could be lying to make himself older. The address he lists does not exist on AREIS. He might not want to expose his person to attack so posted false information. Or it might be a different person.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Aug 25, 2010 at 05:17:59 pm     #  

Maybe he was attending UT's College of Medicine as a janitor.

posted by CharlesBronson on Aug 25, 2010 at 05:20:49 pm     #  

Now before you go posting things that you claim to be my nephew, you should check your facts. That is not my nephew Greg's Facebook. He doesn't even have one. If you would like to compare pictures let me know how to post a face picture on here and I'll show you what the real Greg looks like.

posted by ToledoLatina on Aug 25, 2010 at 06:07:06 pm     #  

Now are you big enough to apologize?

posted by ToledoLatina on Aug 25, 2010 at 06:07:48 pm     #  

When a former classmate passed away recently, his Facebook page was loaded with comments telling him they'd never forget him, expressing condolences to his family, etc.

Strangely enough, none of that was on the Facebook page linked above. And it never occurred to any of you that maybe, just maybe, there might be more than one Greg Williams in the city of Toledo BEFORE you started claiming that this Facebook page belonged to him?

Wow.

posted by valbee on Aug 25, 2010 at 06:18:38 pm     #  

I am sorry for your loss ToledoLatina. Ignore the negative and try to keep your head up.

posted by Courtney on Aug 25, 2010 at 08:40:41 pm     #  

If its not him sorry, just looking up posted materials.

We should have an instruction guide on posting photos here.

posted by OhioKimono on Aug 25, 2010 at 08:48:39 pm     #  

So if it WAS him you aren't sorry? What is wrong with you people? Seriously. The internet sure makes you all big bad pure and innocent doesn't it?

Pathetic.

posted by Ryan on Aug 25, 2010 at 08:57:59 pm     #  

When I noticed this morning that 2 of the boys were identified because they had fingerprints in the system, it made me wonder about the 3rd boy. Was he a relatively decent kid who ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people?

After reading ToledoLatina's post, it sounds like perhaps that was the case. Sorry for you and your family's loss, ToledoLatina.

posted by mom2 on Aug 25, 2010 at 09:24:09 pm     #  

Thank you mom2. That is how I feel it happened. Wrong place/wrong friends.

posted by ToledoLatina on Aug 25, 2010 at 09:26:34 pm     #  

Ryan, your grabbin at straws here. Man, you really do just jump in there and do your best to provoke things further and further.

The intent is that if that if this is a case of facebook mistaken identity in this matter, that I am sorry for the confusion and possible harm in regards to the facebook/myspace mixup. Clearly, an apology isnt good enough for Ryan....but I'm not concerned about Ryan. My apology is for TA and the young man in the mixup.

posted by OhioKimono on Aug 25, 2010 at 09:46:27 pm     #  

Karma works in so many ways

posted by dino on Aug 25, 2010 at 09:52:04 pm     #  

Ohiokimono, you were not the one that I was referring to for the apology. Jenny started the post about Greg's FB. You done what you asked Jenny to do, back it up.

This is a picture of Greg on my Facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?pid=4880373&id=511057331&ref=fbx_album

posted by ToledoLatina on Aug 25, 2010 at 10:01:27 pm     #  

ryan, you're a douche.

What is wrong with people? Who lives a life that believes that a 19 year old that sleeps at numerous houses and has no real "home" is acceptable? What did this kid do for a living? Where did he get his money? Did he have a job? I'm not a psychic, but given the circumstances, I could predict he was headed for trouble.
If everyone cared so much about this kid, didn't anyone care that he was out to all hours of the night? What did they think he was doing at 2am? Working with a church group?
I know it sounds rough, but when are people going to wake up? There is nothing good to come from being out after midnight without reason. Wrong place at the wrong time? No, this kid hung out with thugs and this is what happens when you do. Who gets into a car with friends and doesn't notice the ignition switch yanked out?
Horrible situation, horrible results, but all avoidable. Everyone loved this kid, but no one cared he was out all night or running with the wrong crowd. Well this is what happnens when you do. What did you really expect? He would find a great job or career running around at 3am?
I am not high or mighty and I'm not stupid. If one of my kids even thought of being out past midnight or even thought about hanging out with kids that had police records like those, it would be their last.
I feel sorry for your loss, but also question why this has to happen to anyone?

posted by hockeyfan on Aug 25, 2010 at 10:17:16 pm     #  

Ryan: "Sometimes this board shows you how self righteous and smug most who post here are. I never knew of so many people that were born perfect."

Yes, my friend--we have read your posts too. Many posts where you have held your beliefs as superior to others.

Ryan:_"The internet sure makes you all big bad pure and innocent doesn't it?"_

Nobody has said that. We all have failings. But because, like all human beings I fail from time to time does not mean that I (or anyone else) cannot comment on things that do not seem right to me.

I'm quite certain this young man will be missed by those who knew him, but the questions of people on this board are valid. Hockeyfan has some great questions in the post above mine.

It's not a matter of being "perfect" in one's own life to be able to question the wisdom of (1) having known criminals as friends, (2) rolling with your 'boys at all hours of the night, and (3) offering opinions as to how this could have been prevented.

posted by oldhometown on Aug 25, 2010 at 10:51:40 pm     #  

The young man was 19. He was not a child.. now the 16yr old I can question why he was out late. At 19 hockeyfan where you in bed by 9?

posted by ToledoLatina on Aug 25, 2010 at 11:04:15 pm     #  

Hmmn...when I turned 19, I was living on my own for the first time (away at college). Was I in bed by 9? Does 9 am count? lol

It does make you wonder what kind of parent(s) the 16 year old had. No way in hell would I have been out at 3:30 am at age 16 - my parents would have tracked me down and dragged my ass home!

Actually, even when I was a college student/adult and came home for a weekend, I was expected to be home at a decent hour. My parents said they might not be able to dictate what time I came home to my apartment, but when I was a guest under their roof I was expected to follow their rules.

Seemed unfair at the time, but now I'm grateful that I had parents who tried to instill some order and responsibility into my life!

posted by mom2 on Aug 25, 2010 at 11:31:26 pm     #  

At 16 my parent would have kicked my butt if I hung out with kids that had a police record. I also had 2 jobs at 16 and didn't have the time to "hang out", especially at 2am. I also slept in my parents home and if I got out of line, my grandparents would put me back in it if my parents didn't.
At 19 I was not in bed by 9, but I was in the Navy. As a teenager I was never out past midnight unless I was with family. None of which have a police record.
Growing up I knew exactly who was in trouble or had been in trouble with the police and I stayed away from them.
Like I've said, I'm not perfect or above anyone in any way. I do however credit my parents with being parents the hard way. Knowing who I was with, what I was doing, when I was doing it and when I'd be back.
If these kids had parents or any other adult that showed some tough love this could have been avoided.
Also like I said, sorry for your loss. Kids that lead these types of lives are destined for tragedy. Until more parents/adults get that into their heads, more tragic incidents will follow.

posted by hockeyfan on Aug 25, 2010 at 11:34:03 pm     #  

when i was 16 I already had a police record, and I turned out a.o.k

to judge young people based on their mistakes is silly. we have our entire lives to sort out our problems

posted by upso on Aug 25, 2010 at 11:37:39 pm     #  

what kind of police record was it? Something serious like grand theft auto, rape, armed robbery or something else like petty theft, disturbing the peace, etc.? There is a difference.

posted by hockeyfan on Aug 26, 2010 at 12:25:22 am     #  

are you suggesting that a youth with a GTA rep can't turn out to be a decent human being?

posted by upso on Aug 26, 2010 at 12:35:16 am     #  

Actually, if we're going to focus on the police records of these young men, the Blade only mentioned one charge for Gregory Williams, when he was found delinquent of obstructing official business in 2006. Being found delinquent means he was a juvenile at the time. If the Blade had found more, based on what they listed for the other two, surely this newspaper that many of you bitch about frequently would have printed it.

Incidentally, my son was charged with obstructing official business when he was 20. He was at a party in Maumee that was broken up by police and he was drinking a beer. So, he gave the police a fake social security number.

posted by valbee on Aug 26, 2010 at 07:52:25 am     #  

No, I am not suggesting that someone with a police record cannot turn their life around, but lets be smart.

First, if you are 19 and have had a police record from 18, you have not "turned your life" around yet. Give it a couple of years.
Second, if your son was drinking at a party at 20 (illegal) and then gave police a fake SSN, he's an idiot. If he lived at home with you and went to this party, you're also an idiot.
What makes people think their kids can drink under age? Second, what part of your parenting did you teach him to lie to police? Did you punish him after this? By allowing that type of behavior, you're sending the wrong message. I'm not saying he should go to prison or be punished for life, but c'mon. Drinking under age and then lying to police should not be acceptable. If you believe your son was mature enough to make a decision to drink under age then you should have told him the consequences of his actions. Not to "lie" his way out of it.
You can raise your kids how you want, there is really no law about how to do it. I don't get why anyone thinks it's ok for kids to drink under 21 or smoke under 18 when none of us were mature enough to make that decision at that age. Combining alcohol and young people together is a recipe for disaster.

posted by hockeyfan on Aug 26, 2010 at 01:29:12 pm     #  

Furthermore, everyone does something stupid and usually gets caught. How they react is a reflection on what kind of person they are.
If you steal a pencil from a store at 14years old and get caught and you never steal again, you learned your lesson and are better because of it.
If you steal a pencil from a store at 14, get caught but then steal a coat, then a car, etc. You did not learn and you are headed for big trouble.
We've all done stupid things when we were young. The lucky ones had someone or something that "snapped" us back on the so-called "right track" of life. Those who aren't so fortunate are the ones we read about in the news. It's sad. Lives are so valuable and precious to be wasted.

posted by hockeyfan on Aug 26, 2010 at 01:33:23 pm     #  

You need to write a parenting book you are so damn knowledgable and wise!
Do you really beleive what you type?

posted by Ryan on Aug 26, 2010 at 01:40:54 pm     #  

Hockeyfan makes a good point. You have to teach your children to do right no matter if there is a reward attached to it or not. I'm not a big fan of police procedures but teaching your children to lie their way out of the situation is not the right road to put them on.

I had a juvenile record (fighting at school) and my parents let me be drug through and hung out to dry by the whole legal process. Never once did they pat me on the back and say "the worlds against you son" or "it's just the man holding you down". They told me if I wanted to be a big boy and throw my fist around like one, then I must learn the repercussions. 500 dollars worth of restitution (which came out of my own pocket) and 120 hours of community service sent a message that I paid attention too.

posted by dbw8906 on Aug 26, 2010 at 02:05:19 pm     #  

Valbee didn’t say they taught their son to lie.

You people are amazing. What color is the sky in your world? Can you read a sentence and actually comprehend it?

Testing.

posted by Ryan on Aug 26, 2010 at 02:35:44 pm     #  

You people are amazing.

Thanks!

What color is the sky in your world?

Blue skies...nothing but blue skies...

Can you read a sentence and actually comprehend it?

Yes. I can also write and speak them fluently too!

Test passed.

posted by oldhometown on Aug 26, 2010 at 02:46:48 pm     #  

Sorry Ryan, in my world kid's behave mostly what they are taught by parents. I assumed since it was their kid, they taught them. I guess I should have asked or assumed it was the tv that raised them.

You people are amazing. You know what is right and what is wrong, yet you justify doing wrong. Since when is it ok to lie to police? Since when is it ok to be out at 2-3am as a teenager on the streets? We're not talking about going to a late movie or being at a friends house, we're talking about riding around in a stolen car. A STOLEN FREAKING CAR. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? At 80-100 miles an hour.
If you don't see that is wrong, then that is why our basic system has broken down. What ever happened to integrity? Trust? Following the rules? I'm not talking about being perfect. This is lying to police and stealing cars. Pretty serious things I believe.

posted by hockeyfan on Aug 26, 2010 at 04:00:29 pm     #  

When you steal a car and drive 80 - 100 mph, your going to die. I don't have any feelings for the robbers. Sorry.

posted by Molsonator on Aug 26, 2010 at 04:11:48 pm     #  

Did anyone actually say it was ok to steal a car and speed?

posted by upso on Aug 26, 2010 at 04:21:34 pm     #  

Or to drink underage or lie to cops?
No.
But I guess since valbee didn’t disown their son they must approve of those things.
You are an armchair parent.

posted by Ryan on Aug 26, 2010 at 04:27:53 pm     #  

Ryan, I'm gonna leave this right here for you.......

Minus 10 internets sir

posted by OhioKimono on Aug 26, 2010 at 05:14:16 pm     #  

Wow, this thread took an ugly, ignorant turn. I would ask how some of you sleep at night, looking to find a deceased young man's Facebook page in order to further disgrace him, but I answered that question in my first sentence.

On the other side of upso's post, I've never had a record or gotten in any legal trouble (I've had 1 speeding ticket!) and I wouldn't trust a cop as far as I could throw him.

My condolences, ToledoLatina.

posted by dhr on Aug 26, 2010 at 05:34:31 pm     #  

Thanks Ohiokimono.

I pictured you with more hair, but the smile was pretty much what I figured.

posted by Ryan on Aug 26, 2010 at 05:41:44 pm     #  

Wow, hockeyfan, you sound just like my dad--who, if you recall in a previous conversation we've had, is a retired cop.

No, I didn't teach my son to lie to police. Are you insane? And no, I didn't punish him after he lied to the police, because--and I'm guessing you didn't read what I wrote--he was TWENTY YEARS OLD. He wasn't even living at home.

Was he an idiot? Hell yes. Did he learn his lesson? Of course. He and his brother, whom you know from street hockey, are both fine young men and I'm pretty damn proud of them.

Admittedly, my son hung out with some sketchy people at one time. Drove me crazy for a while, but then I realized that he was trying to be a good friend to people who maybe didn't have many good people in their lives. Did I teach him that? I certainly hope so.

So, who's to say that wasn't the kind of person ToledoLatina's nephew was? I don't know. Neither does anyone else, except perhaps ToledoLatina. No one here is speaking up for the other two young men, but we heard ToledoLatina speak up and let us know that Gregory Williams was loved. It would be nice if we could all take a moment and respect that.

posted by valbee on Aug 26, 2010 at 06:13:23 pm     #  

"No one here is speaking up for the other two young men". I am sure their mothers believed that they would die as loving men. Maybe there is still time for the younger to do something good with his life. The other, dead young man may have died before he did much worse. Perhaps he was honored by his "set" as a real "banger". He could be like all those we honor who died at Omaha Beach. We have no idea what good (or bad) they might have done with their lives. We can only see what happened before their deaths.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Aug 26, 2010 at 09:18:59 pm     #  

Message boards are hard to get a true feeling about what someone is saying. That is true here.
Valbee, I don't know exactly who you are or who your sons are. What I got from your previous post was that those actions were o.k. Reading your follow up post, I get it now and we're talking about the same thing. Mistakes can be made and what happens after that determines what kind of a person you are.

As far as ToledoLatina goes, I do feel sorry for her and for her loss. Her nephew seemed to live in a hard world and got caught up with a bad situation. Loving adults must step in and hopefully learn from something like this to prevent it in the future. Sadly, those who need the most direction seem to have the least amount of positive enforcement in their lives.

posted by hockeyfan on Aug 26, 2010 at 10:08:46 pm     #  

oldsendbrdy, why did you update the initial post when it appears you did not make any changes? The thread wasn't buried.

And did you copy the entire Blade article? If so, edit your initial post, remove some text, and excerpt parts of the article. At least you linked to the Blade story.

posted by jr on Aug 27, 2010 at 11:34:29 am     #  

Did not update. Used old post to check why my new post wasn't working. Trying to post another article. Now (with passage of time) decided not to bother. Could be a mistake I made trying to post (referred to article in Blade), or glitch in system.

posted by oldsendbrdy on Aug 27, 2010 at 11:47:09 am     #  

The surviving teenager died this afternoon.

posted by mom2 on Aug 27, 2010 at 09:28:08 pm     #  

As far as raising a family goes, the type of discipline kids get at home has a lot to do with their behavior outside the home.

posted by flinty on Aug 29, 2010 at 06:01:08 pm     #  

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