Cornerstone’s senior pastor, the Rev. Michael Pitts, was in the news a decade ago after being arrested and charged with eight counts of public indecency. In a 1998 trial that made front-page news, the indecency charges were dismissed and the pastor was convicted of misdemeanor trespassing. More controversy followed, including Mr. Pitts’ arrest in December on charges of driving under the influence of alcohol. That case, his second DUI charge in 6½ years, is pending in Maumee Municipal Court.
400+ comment thread
Aggregating bits of info from the comments posted to the Sep 14, 2010 Cornerstone church thread. The following are user comments:
Sep 14 - I heard but have no confirmation that one minister and one pastor have been asked to temporarily step down.
Sep 15 - sunday minister derick thomas and pastor robert were temporarily asked to step down - it was announced from the pulpit by bishop
Sep 16 - it would be wise to keep your mouths from uttering not so nice things about God's man.. Whether you believe it or not doesn't matter, he is still God's man and our Daddy doesn't like it when you talk bad about His children.
Sep 19 - Now now now... let us not condemn the music minister for impregnating the choir member. That is still "alleged." Although, the current interest (which is still hot and heavy) is also a choir member. What is important is that we focus on the fact that the Other Pitts was found to be renting hotel rooms in the middle of the day.
Sep 20 - It is important to remember that Cornerstone Church in Toledo and its network are first and foremost a business. Make no bones about it that these ministries are set up to make a profit and reward their founders with lavish lifestyles and tax free status through the 501C(3).
Sep 20 - Now if we can only get more people to speak out and up about what goes on behind the green curtains of these institutions we may actually get some momentum and drive the moneychangers out of the temple of God (we are the temple by the way).
Sep 21 - I was in "leadership" and was closer to Michael than probably anyone to date. I travelled with him often and spent much time with him and his family on a personal level. I walked through the whole exposing himself debacle and stood with him through all of it. I gave up several years of my life to serve him and the ministry.
Sep 21 - I know what "really" happened to C STONE LEADERS Larry Mack, Rich Maus, Pastor Martinez, Rich and Cheryl (his sister) Gene Pitts (Dad), Dennis Carey, Ken Van Hoosen, Coach, and the rest of those who get black balled and banished if they happen to hear God for themselves and decide to move in another direction outside of C Stone.
Sep 21 - To be part of this "Corporation" for so long, you are a bit blind to not see the pattern of abuse and lack of love toward those who not only attend and drop dimes in the bucket to finance lavish living but also those who have sacrificed their lives in a leadership position for years and then receive nothing but hatred and false accusation if they want to move on.
Sep 23 - What the good Pope is alluding to is called "fraudulent conveyance". Yes, many businesses today set up corporations for all sorts of unethical reasons. Also, many people do this when they are anticipating a lawsuit or they are getting a divorce. It is a way of "hiding" assets from the creditor or ex-wife and is ILLEGAL.
Sep 23 - Bishop Long and Bishop Pitts run in the same Bishop circle. The revealing letter written of the GCMW seems to validate the accusation against Long.
Sep 23 - We got off on this tangent because Bishop Eddie Long Shanks is supposed to be a featured speaker at C Stone next week.
Sep 24 - Just pray people! and judge not lest ye be judged. If Bishop Long did this then he will answer to God for it. But lets not forget that God is still a merciful God and Eddie Long and anyone else who does not do right will have to answer to HIM and hopefully he will heed the correction he is about to receive.
Sep 24 - This thread is like a roadside car accident, I keep coming back to look/read. Can't help myself.
(That's all for now. It's going to take a while to go back through that entire thread.)
Entertaining Oct 7, 2010 post to Michael Pitts' Facebook page from another pastor:
To the congregation of Pastor Michael Pitts: Remember, October is Pastor Appreciation Month. Plan to do something extra nice for he and his wife all month. Gift cards to their favorite places to shop is good or even a card with a token (spending money) of your appreciation for their service. Your Pastor deserves it.
on Oct 07, 2010 at 10:04:18 pm
on Oct 07, 2010 at 11:52:16 pm
I'm actually very pleased that Michael Pitts has warned his congregation about this blog. Nothing will get some people's attention better than being told not to pay attention.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 08, 2010
at 09:09:23 am
Nothing will get some people's attention better than being told not to pay attention.
True that. What's really amazing is that grown adults will listen and obey this kind of order.
posted by madjack
on Oct 08, 2010
at 09:47:23 am
I'm sure that many in his congregation will attribute the negative comments here as the work of the devil, but hopefully for a few it will give them pause to think and actually see whats going on. And hopefully that some of those who have left will be more willing to explain why they left, and hopefully some of those like Minister Maus will find the courage to talk about what happened to him. And lastly hopefully a couple of the insiders that rumor has it are on the fence will finally take a leap of faith, and release what they know.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 08, 2010
at 11:07:30 am
they are "under attack."
The HoE down talked about how people turn their back on you. The house seemed to like that.
Do they realize they, too, are the ones who have turned their backs? I don't understand how a church can go from Christ centered self-empowerment to pointing the fingers at "them."
If you are not with Stoners -- you are against them. Is it the common enemy philosophy? Is the Stone Kingdom crumbling so the leaders are pointing to a common enemy to build cohesiveness and cause?
The heretical teachings at the Heaven On Earth conference where blatant. I find it amazing that when it comes to "sin" and living like a heathen, the grace of God and Jesus death is sufficient, but when it comes to giving the pimps money/offerings we need new levels, new anointings, more prayer, more blah blah blah...the veil is growing thinner? The veil was rent from top to bottom, the veil covering the scheming "men of gawwd" is the only thing growing thinner. I think that is what God is really trying to tell this people, but they are so lost and blind to their own way that they twist everything God is saying/doing to benefit their bank accounts.
The veil is growing thinner take heed, its almost transparent now. A little more time and all will be exposed.
I'm starting to see thru the "veil". Thanks for the analogy. I just think things are getting a little out of control. I've been hearing about shifting to a new level and ignoring all the "theys" that are "not on board". What about all the people that don't know Christ, are they considered "theys"? Maybe they mean that everybody who is in total submission, gets to be on board. I fear that Pastor is starting to replace my ability to hear from God myself. The other concern I have is that I heard someone claim that Pastor had oil coming from his hands. Is that possible?
Ask any stage magician. When he was alive, local magician Ted Carrothers could have reproduced any of pastor Pitts 'miracles' with ease.
posted by madjack
on Oct 12, 2010
at 07:08:08 pm
Here is a little common sense, for those who are so twisted they can't see straight, IF you are lying, cheating, stealing and conniving to get money from people and using the name of God/Jesus to do so, neither God nor Jesus is on your side! Get it? It's really quite simple. Quoting selective passages from the bible to make a lopsided argument is not a magic spell that you can cast to ward the off truth...I do not consider an abusive church leader who really is nothing more than a wolf is sheep's clothing to be my "brother or sister". I think it is shameful when these so called leaders use their church members to fight their battles for them while they hide out some where refusing to answer questions or to be accountable. Cowards.
Oil coming from his hands? Are you serious? Would you really believe that could be possible? I simply can't believe how gullible a person must be to even entertain the notion that somethng like that could occur. Run! All of you - Run! As far away as possible from this bunch of scammers and lunatics.
(Shakes head in utter disbelief.)
Pastor Pitts is NOT God. He can and should be questioned. His answers should be clear and complete, not evasive, secretive or deragatory. Above all he should never critize the questioner for asking anything, from full disclosure of the church finances to his rational for the necessity of a lavish lifestyle.
If you need a spritual home there are many, many good solid churches that are honest and transparent and dont resort to voodoo magic to fill the Sunday coffers.
posted by holland
on Oct 12, 2010
at 09:41:01 pm
Pope-do you mean the "they's" that the "sheeple who hear the voices" are NOT ALLOWED TO TALK TO?
BTW if you are hearing voices, you may need medication.
If you have chosen to shun your friends who don't believe in your Lord and Savior Oily Pitts, than what kind of "love walk" are you walking?
To be clear, no one has a problem with the members of Cornerstone, I feel sorry for you all, and I think you are being taken advantage of. The problem is with the leaders and their heretical teachings. Let them speak for themselves and fight their own battles. They get themselves in to all manner of embarrassing situations, they they so oh, church, we are being attacked!! Another example of how they take all the benefits for themselves and pass all of the bullshit on to you.
So Pope, when was it that you got promoted to Holy Ghost? You sure spend an awful lot of time watching Cornerstone online for someone who detests Mr Pitts. And no, there was no oil dripping from his hands...lol...obviously a rumor started by someone to stir up even more lies....but, you actually believed it...hahahaha
posted by wahhutch9
on Oct 14, 2010
at 11:05:46 am
Beetlejuice-have you ever heard of Consumer Reports? Consider this thread the "Consumer Reports" of the "church world".
Also, I would wager a bet that 99% of the people in Toledo (including the Pitts themselves) have no doubt that Pitts had NO oil coming from his hands and can not achieve or perform "miracles". The sane people of this world know better. We just find it amusing.
Pope-so what you are saying is that the "haters" hate it when people act like them. Well, they aren't being very good examples of Jesus Christ to this world, unless their image of Jesus is a stuck up, intolerant, money/power hungry conniver. In which case, WELL DONE!!!
I also heard a rumor on FB that some people who had left Cornerstone were thinking of asking the church for their tithes and offerings to be returned to them. It might be a joke, but who knows.
David R Huskins-Last night the aroma and oil appeared on Pastor Lisa Crespo, brother Keith and a young man that was visiting it was so strong they were saturated in it and at the end when the young man started ministering to the youth the results were AWESOME...
From FB, if this isn't "off" I don't know what is:
Kimberly Black ~ Good Morning, Bishop :). Thank you for the most excellent ministry at The River Tuesday night. I wanted you to know that on the way home, my seven-year old daughter, Stephanie, said, "I do remember meeting him before. He's looking very sharp...I wish he was my boyfriend :)!" :) I thought you'd get a kick out of hea...ring about that, Bishop, and you know her...Yes, Sir, she said it JUST LIKE THAT, ROFL :). Love you, Bishop!!
2 hours ago · View Feedback (2)Hide Feedback (2)Cynthia Helton likes this.
David R Huskins It was my honor to be there and I loved the people. Stephanie is a sweetie and I am flattered and tell her how I wish she were older...LOL but unfortunately if she were my age she would see it differently...but I like her view better than the view of those my own age. Something good is going on at The River...
Pope- be civil. You can't just beat someone down over their beliefs and expect them to change.I would encourage any and all cornerstone members to come on and rationally discuss the arguments against Cornerstone that have been presented, and they should be able to do so without being attacked. They should be asked to explain why the teachings at cornerstone are different than those in the bible (which were pointed out in the first thread), and they should be able to post their supporting biblical passages, or beliefs. I had hoped that the origional thread would lead to discussion, and help certain individuals who were on the fence decide what to do.There are some people out there who know a lot more than has been presented here, and they need to feel safe enough to come out, and expose what they know.
Cornerstone is a dying church, riding mostly on a cult of personality, (and the fact that Pitts is a very dynamic preacher, who right or wrong can fire up a crowd), but the attendence is down (from what I observed before I left and what I have been told by others still attending), and their receipts are down (from what I have heard, since these numbers have always been hidden). And hopefully those ready and willing to leave the congregation can be assisted in finding a better path.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 14, 2010
at 03:36:03 pm
I apologize to Beetlejuice. I bet you chuckled, however. It was clever, albeit nasty. It was with the Beetlejuice approach that I took issue. I am only human, after all.
I cannot admit that I hold their beliefs against them. Honestly. Beetlejuice, who seems to know all about me, must know that my belief system isn't 100% to any organized religion. I do not think anyone's is. This is only my opinion. And it is RIGHT. (A little humor injected there).
However, for a group of people (Beetlejuice has seemingly decided to be representative) I, for the life of me, cannot fathom what is going on.
The general "going on" yes. The pointing of the fingers at everyone but themselves accusing the "they's" of pointing the fingers at everyone but themselves, baffles me. How is this possible?
I cannot say, nor have I ever said, that Bishop Pitts isn't anointed. God selects whom He selects. We are all anointed. We are His select.
I have heard people explaining that they have found new churches to the disdain of their loved ones still at the stone. A few of those X Stoners were, in fact, informed that the "new" church did not have "the anointing." Perhaps I am completely wrong. Perhaps the world will end Christmas Eve 2012.
I suppose my facination with this is reading all this so called inside information coming from people who dont attend the church and obviously despise it yet seem to be consumed with what goes on there. Maybe you should spend as much time at your new church as you spend here and you may heal quicker but remaining emeshed in the goings on at Cornerstone will only prolong your agony. Your tossing out of bible verses by the thousands really does not impress me. The devil knows the bible too and can spit scripture out to justify anything,however, if you have lost the spirit behind it and have no revelation then they are just words. So, go to your own church, sit there and thank God for delivering you from the clutches of Pitts and move the heck on!
Perhaps, then what would we all talk about on christmas day 2012 pray tell? Look I dont attend the church either, I have in the past and when I am in town but that is not often, so I dont know who is annointed and who isnt.. I am attempting to be the objective observer with what appears to be a group of very bitter people. Thats all. Not tryinh to upset anyones applecart.
To the author of this website: thank you for posting the link to the Life After Cornerstone blog, it has really opened my eyes. I use to battle with myself on what to do, thinking it was just me. I realize how naive I have been, believing what I want to be true. Sometimes i guess, you have to realize when God says -enough. It just is what it is. I just want to get back to serving the Lord and loving my fellow neighbor. I know that sounds simple, but I just don't feel God in all the hype.
lololol....popo you amuse me!!....Well the problem with what people actually "have seen and know" is when they are anonomously blogging we can never be sure that what they are writing is in fact the truth. This church has been a bone of contention in this city since it's inception, long before any scandals, so one has to ask, why is Toledo so bent on getting rid of this particular church? Could it be that because it functions out of the norm of what Toledo is used to, that people are afraid and want to just keep the dead religion that allows them to sit in church and tell the pastor how to run things and tells the church and God what they are and aren't going to do rather than be accountable....that type of thing permeates Toledo. Or could it be that because it is so full of life that members of other churches are leaving in droves leaving the longstanding preachers of said churches angry and doing their level best to discredit this man of God so as to scatter his church? hmmm. Take a moment and ponder those options....I'm certain you are aware that just because someone said it, does not make it true...And what better way to destroy the character and reputation of a person than to slam the internet with lies and "eyewitness accounts" of wrong doing..
beetlejuice why has cornerstone been a bone of contention, there are plenty of churches in Toledo, some bigger than cornerstone, and yet they don't have all the drama that cornerstone does,nor do they get even a fraction of the bad press or bad blogging. Could it be that people see that the leadership of the church hides behind words that it does not follow, could it be that people see that cornerstone is s cafateria style church and picks and chooses parts of the bible that it wants and rejects or ignores the rest (all while pointing a finger at other churches it says are cafeteria style religion). Its ironic that you mention people leaving churches because cornerstone has been losing members for sometime now, while at least several other local churches are seeing growth. And I never saw any churches actively try to steal members like was reported here, that cornerstone used to stand out front of Cedar Creek and pass out cornerstone material trying to lure them away. Could it be that others like myself have personally heard Michael pitts during a service take pride in the fact that they they don't help members in need, even though the bible clearly indicates that they should. Could it be that Michael Pitts discourages members from discussing views and ideas and interpertations of the bible, or even understanding the bible independently of what he teaches and says. And I find it funny you mention people not wanting to be accountable, when that is the biggest thing people want of the cornerstone leadership, they want them to be accounable for their actions, and to follow the bible, I'm not even saying they have to step down, although as pointed out scripture does require this (the case of the recent temporary suspension) I'm saying that confession and repentance should be open and public (for the leadership) then let people decide if they want to forgive and continue supporting the church, but don't hide problems, and blame outside influences for bringing issues to light. I know a lot of people are bothered by tithing at cornerstone, and that never bothered me at all, what bothered me was the lack of transparency with church finances, and its not even that I want to dictate how money is spent, I just want to it to be open. If I disagree with how the finances are managed I can decide if I want to give less, or even go to another church, If I like how the fiances are handled I can decide to give more.
You asked earlier why don't the ex members just let it go, and get on with their life. Its not that simple because many of the members had put their faith into a Pastor that they believed would show them the truth and a valid path to God, they invested their heart souls and money to a church that they believed in, and then they realize or believe that that the church and the leadership may not have been what it presented its self to be. As a result many of these people end up confused and angry, not at just at the Pastor, or the church leadership, but God, its hard for them to move on to another church because why should they trust another church when they could be just as bad, or worse, and yet they want to believe in something. it is churches like cornerstone (in my opinion) that does far more harm to christianity than any other thing, a rational atheist cause far less damage than pastor who or church that goes astray.
You also mention that the devil (and people here) can use the scripture to make it say what ever we want. So am I to take it then that you are saying that their is no absolute truth in the scripture, and that for example the verses that indicate what criteria a Bishop or leader of the church should have, is some how twisted or that there is another verse somewhere else that says it is ok for Bishops or church leaders not to follow the guidelines found in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 or Titus 1:6-9. The devil may be able to twist your understanding of a bible verse by failing to give the full verse or the context in which it is meant, but by reading the actual verse you should be able to see the truth. Now I might be misunderstanding what you meant, so if you can show how the bible verses that people have used are somehow twisted or not being used correctly I would appreciate you showing everyone how they do not apply.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 15, 2010
at 01:17:43 pm
"popo you amuse me!!"
As you make my heart beat faster, my little BeetleSweety.
"....Well the problem with what people actually "have seen and know" is when they are anonomously blogging we can never be sure that what they are writing is in fact the truth"
You could ask headship, point blank. Of course, that is no guarantee of truth. If the anonymous people revealed themselves, would it REALLY make a difference? If your heart is there, your heart is there. Love is blind, after all. and deaf. and not always coherent.
Family is family. In the first thread I wrote a blithering diatribe about the process of "letting go." When a member of the family comes forward with an awful secret and are "excommunicated/disowned," this doesn't mean that love isn't there on either side.
There are ties, healthy or unhealthy, they ARE ties. People are hurt and angry on both sides. One thing the family will do (if unhealthy)is to try to make the one speaking out look like a liar, look crazy, angry, disgruntled, misguided, invent the "us" vs "they" dynamic: all of the above.
This in and of itself is crazy-making.
That one person who steps forward and speaks the secret is seen as "dangerous" to the unit. In fact, that individual is far more dangerous than any "outsider out to get" anyone within or the entire group. Why? Because that person knows what goes on behind closed doors. They know the secrets.
It is documented in every book about dysfunctional families on the market.
It is a process. The key is honest communication. This rarely happens in the unhealthy family of origin. It is too much of a threat.
This doesn't mean anything is true, I realize this. But from just standing back objectively, it is quite apparent things are not right.
LOLOLOL....you are too funny little popo....ok so we should all storm the place, demand answers and then kick some holy ass! sounds like friday night frenzy fun to me!!!! booyah!
And roygbiv; In this case size does not matter..it isnt the size that people have a problem with and who cares if it grows or shrinks, 2 can put 10,000 to flight so whatever! but, I am not the one to ask as to why this church has been a bone of contention, the pastors and bishops from other churches that politely asked mr pitts to leave town when he was on airport hwy because all their members were leaving and going to cornerstone would be the logical choice. Or maybe the people who tried to steal his children out of the childrens church in 98, or maybe the people that broke into his house and stole his answering machine, or the other pastors that came to his church and told him to leave town or things would get ugly (1995-2years before all the false allegations of indecent exposure) or maybe ask the police officer who falsified a police report by putting mr pitts license plate number on a report to place him at the scene of an "exposure" when pitts was out of the country..an officer who by the way was later fired...I dont know...you tell me. And please roy do not put words in my mouth, scripture is absolute, however, people do use it to justify doing things that are not scriptural...and maybe roy, pitts not allowing everyone to run to the church whenever they need help is a way for people to learn to trust God for themselves, lean on their faith, mature in their faith and turn to each other for help and support. I mean really, with as many people that are there, if they all came running everytime their rent was due, the place would be bankrupt in 15 minutes and the folks would have to help each other anyway. There would be no more internet services for you all to critique and mock, so hey, let the man run his church the way he sees fit.
Beetlejuice: you said "who cares if it grows or shrinks" well Pastor Pitts used to point out that proof of Cornerstones annointing was that it was a growing church, and that churches that were not growing were dying and had lost their way. I heard him preach this on a number of occasions.. that is until membership started to shrink and then he didn't preach on that anymore.
Beetlejuice I suppose you can lead us to police reports or newspaper articles regarding your allegations after all you are just an annoymous poster, at least we can show the arrest reports regarding Pitts DUI's and other legal issues, we know that the two pastors that were asked to temporarily step aside did something because they were asked to step aside albeit too little to late, we know the finances of the church are closed because you can't get access to them.
As for putting words in your mouth regarding scipture your'e the one who indicated that and I quote "Your tossing out of bible verses by the thousands really does not impress me. The devil knows the bible too and can spit scripture out to justify anything,however, if you have lost the spirit behind it and have no revelation then they are just words." But yet you don't offer any revelation or dispute the interpertation presented, So I can only assume that you either choose not look to see if the verses are true, or you do not know what the truth of the verse is.The devil can quote and misinterpert the bible to people who don't know it or understand it, however the Truth of the bible should be able to overccome any twisting by the devil or certainly anyone here, but your not impressed with the quoting of scripture because you would rather believe in a man, than the words of God, if you can not read the word of God and find the truth then those verses have no truth, most of the scriptual quotes have been given book and verse so you can read them yourselves, and if you think they are misconstrued point out how, don't just ignore it.
As for pitts not wanting to help people so that he can show people to trust in God, he is showing them that God has turned his back on them, when they come to their church and ask assistance and are reused, especially when Pitts has promised them that if they give/tithe they will receive back many folds more in return, so when a faithfull tither is turned away (when it is within the means of the church to help) because they need to trust God which they have already showed that they do by tithing/giving (and I know that the rain falls on the just and unjust alike, but being refused help is far different than accepting that good and bad things happen in our lives) And I can even see helping in different ways people who are always in need, but to categorically refuse to help is just wrong. However, and I know I'm just one person twisting the words of the bible, but 1John 3:17 says "But whoever has the world’s possessions and sees his fellow Christian in need and shuts off his compassion against him, how can the love of God reside in such a person?", but I guess its twisting the word when you expect it to be followed, notice and (you can read the rest oh 1john) it never says you don't have to help your fellow christian if you are just trying to get them to trust in God. Of course if he wanted to show his own trust in God he would do as the bible says in luke 12:22-34
"22 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For there is more to life than food, and more to the body than clothing.
24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn, yet God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than the birds!
25 And which of you by worrying can add an hour to his life? Matt 6:27;
26 So if you cannot do such a very little thing as this, why do you worry about the rest?
27 Consider how the flowers grow; they do not work or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these!
28 And if this is how God clothes the wild grass, which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven, how much more will he clothe you, you people of little faith!
29 So do not be overly concerned about what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not worry about such things.
30 For all the nations of the world pursue these things, and your Father knows that you need them.
31 Instead, pursue his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.
32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is well pleased to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide yourselves purses that do not wear out – a treasure in heaven that never decreases, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.
34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
But something tells me that he's not about to give up his worldly possessions to the poor, and to trust that God will provide him with food. Although I would be extremely impressed if he did.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 15, 2010
at 04:31:30 pm
Had to pull this one out by itself. but beetlejuice- you said "And please roy do not put words in my mouth, scripture is absolute, however, people do use it to justify doing things that are not scriptural..." and that is one of the things a lot of the people here have accused Bishop pitts of doing.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 15, 2010
at 04:34:29 pm
"you are too funny little popo"
Thank-you future parent of my children. Whatever is small is made up with the size of my Poping hat, my sweet love bug.
"....ok so we should all storm the place, demand answers and then kick some holy ass! sounds like friday night frenzy fun to me!!!! booyah!"
Now THAT'S what I am talking about! In a kindly Christian sort of manner.
ARE YOU READY TO RUUUUUUUUMBLEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
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PRAISE AND WORSHIP!
IT'S THE BATTLE of the MILLENNIUM!
DARK vs LIGHT - TRUTH vs LIE
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Son of Man,
Prince of Peace
JEE-ZUSS THE KEE-RIST
Prince of Darkness
The Thunder down under!!!
JOIN US FOR THIS SACRAMENTAL SHOW DOWN!
Lay hands ON the spiritually OFF
Be SLAIN in the spirit and BORN AGAIN
SUNDAY! SUNDAY! SUNDAY!
Come with your family! Cqme with a friend! Come with an Enemy!
BUT DONT COME LATE! SEATING IS LIMITED!
ADMISSION IS FREE! FREE! FREE!
Sunday 9am and 1130 am
At the corner of Reynolds and Dussel
sponsored by cstone congregation and x disgruntled congregation members.
Christian casual dress and 10% tithe required.
There were no heathens injured in the making of this ad.
because miracles fill the seats in the house. Nothing like a miracle to bring people into the house and to open up wallets. Of course they could get $1,000,000 from the amazing Randi by doing a faith healing in a controled environment with rules agreed on by the faith healer and Randi, but alas no one ever takes him up on it.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 18, 2010
at 05:59:56 pm
Crystal Cathedral megachurch files for bankruptcy.
I would love to see any one of these "miracle working men o' Gaaaawwwd" conduct one of their "miracle services" in a controlled environment...it will never happen. They would found out to be the frauds that they are.
I would like to challenge Cornerstone Church and any of it's network churches or affiliates to conduct a "miracle service" in a controlled environment. Double dog dare you!!!
My Dearest BeetleBaby:
Heck, we are all heretics here - are we not? You -- a declared Protester of the HRC. I, in your limpid pools of love, am embracing, as Pope, THE Great Apostasy. Of course, Mr. Pitts sort of preaches his own thing.
I have a biscuit for that butter.
ROY and Q - perhaps the miracles rode off on the back of a Harley. That is the rumor, anyhow.
Hey God does use the foolish things to confound the wise so be careful, God is able to do miracles in a controlled, uncontrolled or seemingly ridiculous evironment. I think you all have forgotten that the people that sit in this church are not idiots. They give if they want to and I am sure they realize that according to scripture, the people of God are supposed to fund the house of God and the work of God in the earth. We dont live in ancient Jerusalem folks, getting the work of God done requires cash, you cant show up anywhere with a goat and expect things to be done..Try that with Toledo Edison...I am sure it would go well for ya! I dont think Pitts preaches his own thing, I think Pitts preaches what God gives him and God is not always talking blessing. Sometimes it is rebuke and correction, but 2010 people dont like that. They like to be told they can live any old kind of way, do whatever they want and never have any accountability to God. Pitts tells it like it is and some people dont like that, but that is why not everyone is called there. And popo is that bisquit whole wheat?
Atleast Toledo Edison gives you an itemized bill and you know you are paying for your electric bill and not for someone to live like a rap star. People left and are still living precisely because Pitts doesn't preach any type of accountability. Are you kidding me? For a non-Cornerstone member, you really know alot about the members and what goes on there beetlejuice. Actually, you sound alot like Godskid...hmmmm, whatever.
No one minds giving to help the poor or those in need, people don't want to give to line the pockets of snake oil salesmen.
First I have no idea who godskid is and I mentioned that I do attend cornerstone when in town so I am familiar with it. I actually dont know any church in town that would give any member an itemized statement as to the spending of the money...If you follow what Cornerstone does and it seems you all do, then it should be obvious as to where the money goes. They do a lot of things for a lot of folks.
oh qwerty, if you think the CEO of Toledo Edison is living in squalor please re-evaluate...remember Toledo has the highest electric rates in the state. ALL the places you spend your money, the CEO's live like kings...So next time you go to Walmart, ask the owner if you could see his books, (not the public copy either) I am sure he would be happy to oblige.
beetlejuice- but the CEO of Toledo edison doesn't teach from a bible that that tell us we should give to to the poor, or that we should give a certain percentage of our income, for no services or goods in return (except the promise of rewards in heaven, although Pitts does promise you will get back here on earth many fold what you give but he doesn't garuntee anything), and you can not find out how much Pitts earns for doing this. However the CEO of Edison tells you exactly how much services and goods your money will purchase for you, and unlike pitts you can find out how much money the CEO earns and what benefits, and even what charity the company supports. And he never says you should give a certain percentage of your money to help the poor, nor does he ever imply that that is what you are giving Edison money for, in fact he will tell you his business is to make money. Over all Toledo Edison is much more open about why they want your money, what they are going to do with your money, what you get for your money than cornerstone ever has been.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 19, 2010
at 06:34:45 pm
Beetlejuice-Toledo Edison is a for profit company. I am not familiar with their corporate structure, but I can guarantee you that the CEO is accountable to the nth degree to a board of directors/and or shareholders if it is publicly owned. The CEO likely is required to have advanced degrees in business management etc. and would be fired from his position if he failed to run the business properly. We live in a capitalistic society. However, in contrast, the kingdom of God is not SUPPOSED to be about that, right?? We are supposed to be better than that? Putting the needs of others before our own selfish needs?? Right? Or am I reading a different bible?
MP likes to consider himself the CEO of Cornerstone Church. This is a very poor analogy. One, there are no shareholders (or people who own a stake in the church other than psychologically and emotionally). People give freely and are to expect nothing NOT EVEN ACCOUNTABILITY in return (by accountability I mean a detailed list of how much money was received through offerings and tithes and how much is spent on salaries and how much goes to "helping others around the city and across the world"). Secondly if there is a board of directors that approves salaries, you can be sure that the board is comprised of members that have strong ties to MP and will make decisions based on what he wants done.
Non-profit companies that are worth their salt (so to speak) consider "transparency" to be one of their main pillars. They will tell you how much they have received, exactly where it went, how much of every dollar you send goes to administrative and overhead and how much of every dollar actually goes to helping people. A well run, conscience humanitarian organization will have around 85 to 90 percent (or more) of every donation going directly to help those in need. So if you give a dollar, eighty five cents goes to buy food, clothing, medicine, etc. It does not go to buy expensive homes, luxury cars, designer clothing, fancy empty buildings, giant Jesus statues, etc.
To liken Pitts to a CEO is a bit of an insult to CEO's everywhere, even the CEO's of other worthy non-profits. From what I understand Cornerstone has employed "consultancy firms" in the past to teach them how to "grow" their church. So all of this talk about "God will bring them" is just more double talk.
Also, just to be fair, I don't shop at Wal-Mart because I disapprove of the way they treat their employees :)
Wait a second, I just learned from reading the "Life After Cornerstone" blog that MP's own mother and sister won't attend his church?? What the heck is that all about? They go to Cedarcreek? And no one is allowed to talk to MP's father??
Wow, what christian love, no wonder people make fun of christians. Does anyone know anything about this or is it just a rumor?? Inquiring minds want to know...
You read correctly - Mom and Sis are at the Perrysburg Cedar Creek compound. I believe (dont quote me on this one) that mess came to fruition when Derrick Thomas was "rumored" to have impregnated a choir member and it was hushed up.
Dad has an office and rarely do the other staff members engage him. I know of two staff members who chatted him up often, both were fired.
No, I am NOT saying one had to do with the other... Imjustsaying.
isnt tithing a matter of obedience and giving God what belongs to Him so what the church does with it is irrelevant? I mean if they decide to go to the track with it then isnt that on them?
From what I heard, sis left the church because her hubby had been bucking for a place on the platform for years and the pastor wouldnt allow it, he got pissed and left. And mom and dad have been seen recently at cstone. They still go there.
I had heard for some time about the Pitts parents, I had heard that the mother was upset about sweeping the alledged Derick Thomas affair under the carpet, and the sending the choir member to cornerstone metro detroit. And had heard that the father still had his position mostly to show family unity but that he was persona mon gratis amongst the inner circle, I personally had only seen Mr Pitts once and don't know if any of it is true, but the rumors certainly was well known. As for the sister I have heard several rumors regarding her leaving (although nt that her husband want to be on the Diaz, but that could be) Some of the rumors I heard were quite damaging to the Pitts but I only heard those from a few less reliable sources so I won't repeat them, but I do know that her leaving was before the alledged Thomas incident.
Bettlejuice- tithing (if you follow the bible) is only in part a matter of obedience, and there are rules for tithing that are not followed by cornerstone (or really any church that I am aware of that pushes tithing), However along with obedience you are also called on to be a good shepard, or a good steward with what God gives to you, so you do have responsibility to ensure that your tithes are going to God and for Gods work (assuming you are not going to follow the way tithing is supposed to be done according to the bible). Granted tithing to someone who misuses your tithe will not prevent you from entering heaven, any more than never having tithed in your life, nor will the benefits from heaven be any less (Accordin to the bible if I have sinned all my life, and find jesus today and repent my sins, and then die, I will go to heaven and my reward will be as great as those who followed Jesus their entire life). And i restate that I don't want say or control over the finances of any church I just want openness I want to know how much of my tithing or offerings go towards administrative costs and building and how much actually goes to helping those in need or in spreading the word (reaching new unsaved people). If I learned that say 80% was going for administration and to get people in the seats, and only 20% (made up numbers for the record not related to anything) was going to help the needy or to bring the word of God to new people, at Church "A" while only 40% went for administration and getting keeping people in the seats, and 60% went to the needy or spreading the word guess where I'm more inclined to go, and where I am more willing to belive that Gods works are being done.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 20, 2010
at 11:05:23 am
well stated roygbiv. also I think it's a total copout to say "it's on them". It's on you also, you have a responsibility as a christian to live by the principles of good stewardship and accountability. Looking the other way is neither of those things and is not biblical concept.
The New Testament church in the bible DID NOT TITHE. As a matter of fact they spent a lot of time teaching and explainging why it was no longer necessary. Your Bishop is teaching you lies and half truths imjustsayin :)
My lovely Beetle who grows lovelier by the letter,
I must agree that if the Tithe is God's (why he needs cash is beyond me, but if he insists) then when it leaves my hands, that is it. However, I must say the issue I DO have is when people go in to discuss issues with Robert and he is sitting with their tithing record.
As for Sis and Bro in Law and Mom. I heard they were "working on things" but was unaware of Mom's presence in the house. She was seen weekly at The Compound (Cedar Creek). I remember that she would make "special" appearances. Perhaps they have better communal wine in Perrysburg.
Was the sister also the one that raised eyebrows with the $52,000 Christmas decor? I do know that her absenteeism had to do with sweeping things under the rug. What the public story is, I have no idea.
Besides, do we REALLY DARE enter the realm of the family dysfunction?
[ ] Physical Abuse
[ ] Sexual Abuse
[ ] Alcoholism
[ ] Drug Abuse
I remember, quite vividly, sermons about Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5). I remember them because of the context they were preached and how our first 10% is God's.
There is nothing like the threat of DEATH looming over a person concerning tithing and gifting and putting ministry time in.
UPON FURTHER INVESTIGATION, however, it wasn't the withholding of funds that was the sin. It was lying to God. The story nearly scared the Pope right out of me.
I was also told of stories about how person A would cross church person B and next thing you know, person A is being carted away in an ambulance having been "struck down" during a meeting. I cannot give credit to the Pitts brothers for that one, though.
I loved how they preach that with God there is no fear. Yet, people grow fearful of those in the House of God.
Pope- to fully understand acts 5 you have to read acts 4 starting around verse 32:
"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.
34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
36Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement),
37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles' feet.
So it wasn't even a matter of tithing, as a community they had agreed to share equally so that no one would be without (which is one of the fundmentals that Jesus taught), Aranias and Sapphira lied, and were greedy, and in essence of the group were theives because the land and its proceedes belonged to God and by proxy the group as a whole. And I know that corerstone does not operate this way, although I'm sure that the Pitts boys would not mind their congregations giving up everything that they have, just as long as they (the Pitts) can keep theirs, and maybe a bit of yours as well.
The death Ananias and Sapphira, although a bit extereme is not nearly as scarely as the Book of Job, which in my opinion is the scarest book in all the bible.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 20, 2010
at 05:17:00 pm
Job is a trip. Although I did love that his friends were chastised for saying that Job was going through it because he must have sinned / he must not have had enough faith / etc.
That sounds vaguely familiar.
Thank you for the Acts 5 Lesson (MP pronounces AX).
I think I would stay away from the House of Happy (The Stone) while all of these things are being laid out... ESPECIALLY in light of Acts 5. ;-)
Is Minister Thomas sleeping with the entire choir? Why would any leader want that covered up?
posted by c-money
on Oct 22, 2010
at 03:50:55 am
Stewardship has to do with what You have been given responsibility for. The people of that church are not running anything. The pastor of that church has stewardship of the money that comes in there not the congregation. So if people are tithing as unto the Lord and the pastor decides to do wrong with it, then verily, verily I say unto you, he will answer for that. And yes, the question of the day..to to tithe or not to tithe...do what you want, but I would say let the people tithe if they want to. In the end, when we all get to stand before God, it is then that we will find out who was in fact correct. Until then, can't we all just get along!
beetlejuice and you are responsible for all that God has given you, so that would include any increase that you are tithing on. The bible warns of false teachers, how are you to identify them if you don't ask questions, or if you don't look behind the veil. You are told that you can judge a tree by the fruit it bears, but how can you judge the fruit if you are not allowed to see it. Its not just Cornerstone I would not trust any church where the financial records are not open. And you have to ask yourself if the church has nothing to hide or be concerned about, why not make it public, if I saw that my thithes were for the most part 80-90% going to help others or to spread the word to the unchurched or unsaved, then I would probably divert some of the money I donate to charity to the church above my tithing to the church. Likewise if I found that they were using an unreasonable amount for the building, and administration costs like cars for the pastor (and other church workers), and salaries, then I would probably be inclines to either not tithe and take the money I would have tithed and give it to charities and causes that actually do help people, I would also look for anther church..oh wait I did.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 22, 2010
at 02:49:17 pm
Th real problem here is the literal application today, of a collection of writings written roughly 3500 yrs ago. Language and the meaning of words change overtime. The second problem here is a craving for spiritual fulfillment so strong that it borders on addiction, which leads to the suspension of logic and common sense in order to fulfill that craving.
posted by holland
on Oct 22, 2010
at 04:14:31 pm
Beetlejuice-christians are supposed to judge things, perhaps no one at your church points these passages in the bible out to you...but its in there if you care to look.
No where does it say we are to blindly follow any man. No where in the bible does it say we are to give money to a man who will use it for his own gain or as an "honorarium" for preaching God's word, which was given freely to all of mankind.
They have no right to make money off of it. It's disgraceful. If they want to be wealthy they should find employment in the types of business endeavors that allow for the accumulation of wealth. People who sincerely work in the non-profit sector are not trying to get rich or "lie trying".
These people do not show the sincere heart or spirit of Christ which is self sacrifice.
This is a tired subject. It's not really a church. Cornerstone Club makes people feel good and the greasy Preachers get rich. It's kind of a joke isn't it? I wonder how many of the members are allowed to see the real financial books on a daily basis? Who really counts the money from each collection? It's really quite the clever scam.
Oh popo you disappoint me so. Now why would you post that dispicable picture? That is just not right. The only good thing about that is Denny Shffer got so much flack for doing that... He eventually ended up at the altar and got saved and now he is a Christian...
Beetlejuice- Denny was an idiot, but those billboards were only one of the reasons he was an idiot. And I don't think he got a lot of flack for doing them. I should also point out that he may have become a christian (although as far as I know he always was, he just beats the drum now) and he may have found faith in God, but I don't think he ever found Faith in Michael Pitts or in Cornerstone, I don't ever recall him saying that he was wrong regarding the billboards or Michael Pitts.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 25, 2010
at 02:15:17 pm
I may be forced to rethink my perception of Denny.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 25, 2010
at 02:49:51 pm
Oh I know. I never said he was at cornerstone. I said he made it to the altar..Which is a good thing...I dont care if he has faith in pitts or not. I care that he was disgusting in his public humiliation of another human being. After all the mocking and ridicule pitts took at the hands of this city during that time and still does, he never lashed out at anyone.
I dont know who the pastors were. I only know that several of them came to pitts. He would not give their names but I know for a fact that this happened, it came from pitts initially but was carroberated (forgive the spelling) by an outside source close to one of the pastors who came to meet with pitts.
I thought of all of you these past couple of days. "Why?" you may or may not ask. I will explain.
In the mail came St. Pat's of Heatherdown's annual report. It is dated Fall 2010, in case you are that interested.
On page 11 is the fiscal breakdown of where all of the congregations money flows.
I also thought of you because in the 9:30 service, a certain woman in a wheelchair who sits in the back always vocalizes "thank you Jesus," "amen," and "yes!" during the intentions, the sermon, and the gospel.
Anyway, maybe you could ask Robert where your money goes. If that is too harrowing of an experience to even think about, you could possibly ask his assistant. I hear they are pretty close.
About Denny Shaffer:
He was an active alcoholic and had a conversion experience. He left and went to Georgia where he broadcast a show from his home. He did this for a couple of years.
"On Monday October 12th at 9pm DennyRadio returns to the 7th largest radio market in the world, Atlanta. I will be hosting a nightly talk show on Atlanta's 920 WGKA. I am so excited and thankful for this opportunity since God did it all.
Please continue to pray for God's guidance as we step out on Faith."
Beating a drum? Who knows? God knows.
I am sorry you did not enjoy the piece of history I managed to dig up from the stenches of the internet, my beloved Beetlebaby.
The pastors did not come to Pitts. They met in a meeting room and he walked in and they were THERE. A rather unsuspected surprise party from what I heard. Of course Pitts never lashed out at anyone. He only does that to X members. Oh, and before his alleged park incidents, he had a good time tearing apart the Catholic Church. The same church that he now emulates.
The presence of God has left, but the gift remains.
my ever surprising popo, lets not quibble about how the other righteous pastors in toledo either came to or were already in a room to try and "convince" pitts to leave town, the fact is they did it and then all of a sudden, poof, allegations of impropriety abound in toledo...hmmm..I wonder, is your pastor one of them? Or yours roygbiv? I doubt that little tidbit of inofrmation will be included in the oh so open books... let's just agree to disagree on this one ok boys!
beetlejuice- I don't know if one of my pastors was involved because you can't tell me who they were , and you know the incidents didn't just occur, his first encounter was in 1995, the others were in 1997, and the ones in 1995 he was stopped at the scene (and police ropped the ball on charges. So its convienent that he starts a conspiricy theory about other churches procecuting him around the same time he he has some legal issues going on, that no one really knew anything about because the officials involved let him get counseling (http://www.crabwalk.com/misc/pitts.php). And the other thing you have yet to address is why hasn't this cabal of religious leaders went after any of the other churches that are growing surely they are stealing people from other churches.
Fred- I had not heard that people think the travel documents were forged, but if they were and the courts couldn't prove it the courts are idiots. As I recall some of the trips were out of the country and if they were forged that would involve forging a passport stamp which I believe is a federal offense.
I will say that from everything I read the exposure charges (especially those from 1997) are exteremely shakey and I'm not sold one way or the other. The 1995 incident if it occured was actually the stronger case, but it was poorly handled by the court in Delta.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 26, 2010
at 11:21:51 am
Oh love of my BeetleJuicy life I adore you,
You are correct in that truly, it matters not whether he came or not. I am a stickler for details which makes me quite boring.
I am sorry to quibble, but quibble I must. My next quibble is that I do not have a pastor, I have a priest. My priest isn't a bishop. I am but a papal pawn on this ecclesiastic chess board.
However, Catholic Priests are notorious for not getting involved in such Stato Pontificio hanky panky. This due, naturally, to the fact that once a Priest becomes involved in those types of political perplexity, the names of alter boys start appearing on the national news.
Are we ready to take this relationship to the next step? Would you like to see what a "real" annual report is supposed to contain?
It is possible to have fake passports, no? I am not a member of the underground so I do not know if they also fake the stamps. I can't imagine it NOT being possible. I fear it sounds too much like a conspiracy.
I would hope the court looks further than a turd labeled "exhibit B." I'm pretty sure anything can be doctored or twisted through those computer photo programs.
Pope- you are of course correct almost anything can be faked to the untrained eye. but a trained eye and a bit of research is almost impossible to fake, I can give you a fake airline ticket to show you went somewhere, but I can't fake the documentation that the airline is holding.That is why I said that if the courts let slip buy suspected forged documentation then they are idiots, and failed to perform due diligence.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 26, 2010
at 02:21:44 pm
I think that you are all giving mr pitts waaaaaay more power than he deserves.. To forge a passport, pay off police or whatever.. come on...I think perhaps the reason he walked from the indecent exposure cases is due to the fact that oh, I dont know, he didnt do it...hmmm..imagine that.
popo poo poo, I dont want to see your "annual report" as tempting as it is...I went to a catholic church once..it was a christmas mass...I fell asleep...only because I dont understand latin and this priest did the whole thing in Latin....why!
Actually roy, the pastors from other churches made a visit to pitts when he was on airport hwy and had 40 members..way before this stuff...you just cant allow yourself to think that he truly is innocent can you? and to answer the obvious question before you ask it, yes, I can allow myself to think it is possible that he is not innocent...but again, he is not my pastor/bishop whoever so it matters not to me..I visit when in town....
bettlejuice- I said already that I am not swayed either way. I don't know if he is guilty or not, and I was aware of the incidents while I was at his church, so it did not have any influence. I do however find less credibility in his crying that other church leaders plotted against him. And I like that you jump up and say we give pitts more power than he deserves and that their was no way he could arrange a cover up, but you obviously believe that pastors from churches being drained by the members leaving to go to Pitts church did have the power to arrange all these false allegations. As I have also stated before that even if true the alledged exposure incidents is very far down on the list of issues I have with Pitts and Cornerstone. Now you say that Pitts had only 40 members when this occurred, so he stole 40 members from a group of churches and caused this great wrath, most churches lose 40 members due to apathy in a year, there is nothing about that that would lead me to believe that they were so upset about losing members that they would threaten another pastor, especially when other churches have grown way faster.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 26, 2010
at 02:56:47 pm
I doubt that he stole members. I am leaning toward them leaving on their own, making their own decision to leave their dead church. You cant make people leave their church if they are growing and happy. At the time all of this was happening he had 40 members, but as the church grew,thats when the pastors came to him and wanted him to stop, stop having an alive church I suppose. I mean for real, Toledo has some old religious dead churches and at the time cornerstone came to toledo it was at the height of deadness. There were no so called megachurches, just dusty religion. But now there are many good churches so everyone has a smorgasboard to feast from.
So were the threats made when he had 40 members or was it later. Remember the first charges are from 1995. Now above you said and I quote "At the time all of this was happening he had 40 members, but as the church grew,thats when the pastors came to him and wanted him to stop, stop having an alive church I suppose." so if all this was happening when he had 40 members and only later did the other churches complain, then they are not related. It should be pointed out that in 1995 Cedar Creek was also coming to life (if the 15 anniversry promotion recently is accurate), so Cornerstone was not the only chuch coming alive. And I should point out that you already said that a church growing does not indicate that it is alive or annointed, so those churches that people were leaving may well have been alive, or if people leaving is a sign of a dying church like Pastor Pitts used to preach, then we must conclude that Cornerstone is a dying church because its membership is in decline.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 26, 2010
at 04:51:58 pm
ok roy, cornerstone came to toledo in 1986 and was at the airport hwy location when people from other churches started to hear about it and come. I wasnt there so I am not 100% certain of the exact amount of people that sat there week after week but I do know it was less than 100 people at that time. As word got around that it was a happening place, people started to check it out and leave their churches. So, when cedar creek came around, cornerstone had already been in toledo for almost 10 years and was at the currant location by then. But it was at the airport location that pitts was approached by the pastors because by then word had gotten to them that epople were checking it out...so there ya go...
Beetlejuice-your comments seem incredibly nonsensical to me. Who are these "shadowy figures" that are "out to get" the Cornerstone Pastors? No names, no dates, no factual data...just a very generic story about how "some bad guys" (them) are out to get the "good guys" (us) because they are jealous (they hate me cause they ain't me) of the "anointing that no one else but the one chosen guy" has. How very delusional in the most grandiose and egotistical tradition.
If you knew anything about how this thing works (I don't think you do), you know that anyone seeking to form a cohesive group always seeks to identify an "enemy", and where no real enemy exists, one is invented. If there is a common enemy, then the people in the group will band together and feel like they have something to fight against.
You are your own worst enemy. Stop blaming others and take personal responsibility.
I wasn't insinuating Pitts forged anything. I highly doubt the place has the brains or the talent to do such. I was sincerely wondering if it were possible. Thanks Roy for answering the Q.
I suppose if Pitts was going to pay anyone off, he could have done it to that cute sheriff that stopped him for his last DUI. He did have 7+ grand in his pocket.
I'm sorry you fell asleep at Holy Christmas Mass. Latin IS a dead language. "WHY?" you lamented. The best answer I can surmise is because you have boring friends. Latin Mass was ousted with Vatican II in the early 60's. So you are either relatively old, or you went to a "traditional" service that many Catholics still enjoy and feel the rising of the spirit.
Next time perhaps a contemporary or progressive service would whet your Pentecostal whistle.
The Mass isn't about you though, it's about God. And to think you only went once and declare it DEAD.
We have Charismatic and modern services too. Oh, yes, that is right. You guys are now Charismatic Catholics.
Thank God for the entertainment factor at Cornerstone! If it weren't for that, you might be bored. Would you care to accompany me? Do you have a nun's habit? Not for the service, of course. That would be for later.
PS. "you just cant allow yourself to think that he truly is innocent can you?"
Let us put all of what he has been accused of aside. Now, let us look at the doings of his staff. He (Bishop) isn't truly innocent. He knows what is going on. He helped cover things up. He is head of that house and is absent from overseeing any accountability. (2 weeks vacation is not accountability)
You don't want to see my financial report? It would shatter the belief that the Stone is rolling in the 10% of thousands. We don't do too bad minus the "tithe."
I was talking to a group of people the other day about religion and brought up this thread. And one of my friends stated that there is an easy way to see the diffrences between say Cornerstone and CedarCreek, he said to watch them both online or try to download their services and the differences become clear. I indicated that I know Cornerstone broadcasts their services live but wasn't sure about Cedarcreek, and he said to just try it and that I would see the diffrence. So we all gathered around a lap top and tried. It wasn't during a service time for either so there was no live feed (Cornerstone does have a live feed that is free during their service, we could not find a live feed from Cedar Creek). So we decided to try and watch or down load the services. Cedarcreek allowed us to watch videos, or listen to audio of services, or we could download them at Itunes all for free, and maintained an extensive number of service topics, additionally you could download two different study handouts for each service that we looked at. Now by service it was usually after the praise and worship portion, but a large number of their praise and worship songs are on Youtube, although not well organized we did find some great clips. Now at cornerstone we found that you could download audio "messages" services for $3.00 each, no video services and no supplemental information. You can find some video snippets on youtube of services, and some music from praise and worship but it also is not well organized. So we started discussing what we found and it all came down to the fact that Cedar creek allows you to access them and God and what ever annointing they have for free, at anytime, while Cornerstone if you wanted saved at any other time than a regular service time it cost you $3.00 per message. And that pretty much summed up that at Cornerstone money is more important than reaching and saving people.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 28, 2010
at 10:51:23 am
robert pitts is still currently married to kelly pitts although for how long who knows. They have been married a little over 20 years.
wow roy, you should really start your own church since you know exactly how it all should be done...why do you care so much really? If you no longer attend this church, why is it your business whether this man charges 3 bucks for a download or not? I mean if your motivation is to save and enlighten the stupid vulnerable left overs who haven't yet come to their senses and left cornerstone and found true religion elsewhere, dont you think that love would work better that constant berating and criticism? I think this would only put them on the defensive. Just an observation...Another observation, I have been to cedar creek too and the only thing I can compare it to is dinner and a movie. There is absolutely no challenge there. God bless pastor lee and they have their own calling and all that but the church is somewhat dry and dull except for the fact you can eat and drink in the sanctuary..yeah! dinner and a movie, see...
The problem, for me, was never being shouted at. It was the fact he shouted at you about changes he deemed everyone should make, in order to reach some higher platform where every Christian should be. Where this higher level/platform is in the Bible, who knows? He only cares about his agendas and how much the Church should be giving, and that at Cornerstone everyone should be a 100% tither. It, to me, is a huge money making scam. I was at the service this past week, where he proceeded to preach about how he made money off Martha Stewart's misfortunes. He wasn't giving stock advice, which he was adament about, but seriously?
beetlejuice- Why do I care, I care because I believe that God does not want us to stand by while others misuse his name and his word for their own benefit, and or purpose. I actually don't claim to know how it all should be done, but I do know a good refrence...the bible which does tell how it should be done, and nowhere do I recall God saying take the words that I give you and make as much money as you can, I believe that you are not called as a christian to reach the nations, and make as much profit as you can while you are doing it.
And as for saving the unenlightened, I love the members of cornerstone church (I don't even wish the leadership ill will, actually I hope that they can find their way), but I also know that many of them are blinded to the realities of what goes on there either by apathy, or by following a cult of personality, and some benefit from the dialog here and elsewhere, and most who find it, find it because they were looking. You accuse me of putting people on the defensive, thank you for noticing, unfortuately you have to put some people on the defensive to get them to examine what they believe and understand, because only by examining what you believe and comparing it to others views can you start to determine what is and isn't true for yourself.
As for Cedarcreek I only used it as an example because that was the example brought up to me. I actually don't think most churches have audio or video downlaods of their services. As for Cedarcreek being dull I couldn't say, but from my understanding for a dull church it is actively growing and outpacing the lively Cornerstone (which I admit I enjoyed the liveliness of a Cornerstone service, it was entertaining even when I didn't agree with the message and/ or the messenger). Someone informed me that not only are they growing as a church, but they also are helping churches grow that they are not affiliated with, maybe someone who goes to Cedar creek can comment further.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 28, 2010
at 01:09:21 pm
Cedar Creek has always worked with other churches in one way or another. Whether it be a Thanksgiving dinner for the underprivledged at Solid Rock Church or helping others with maintenance and even building churches in other countries. Lee Powells mission is to get people churched, whether it be through Cedar Creek or another church. He has even encouraged people to leave Cedar Creek if they feel compelled to explore another church more convenient, closer to home, etc. That is what separates them from alot of others.
*I have not attended in a long time and almost didn't post this because I don't want people to think that I am a typical attendee (most are quite nice). I know I come off as a jerk on here half the time. I am working on it.
One of the best books I ever read regarding churches, is "Jim and Casper Go to Church", which you can read part of here http://files.tyndale.com/thpdata/firstchapters/978-1-4143-1331-3.pdf
Which has an atheist and a christian, explore different churches around the country (mostly Mega churches) and then discuss them with each other from their own perspectives. It is a fairly quick read, but very interesting, It really helped shape the way I thought about churches and religion in general.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 28, 2010
at 01:37:05 pm
saving souls, bringing the gospel of Jesus Christ to people outside the walls of the church is not a free undertaking. Could it be that is why the church, any church takes in money I mean come on folks,there is not a free thing on the planet besides advice of course and you cant do what this church does without spending money my god people grow up! would it please you more if he paid for everything himself and people just showed up and said "you go boy" with no input or investment..this is the work of God in the earth and If I am not mistaken, God has designed it so that the church meaning the people in it, you remember, the body of Christ, is supposed to fund the work of God in the earth.
As for pitts shouting at people to do things he doesnt include himself in, pay attention next time you inconspicuously listen online. He does include himself in what he says, he hasnt ever placed himself in a position of not having to grow and change...
Of course it costs money, he just keeps WAY too much for himself. Period, the end. I don't see how you can even argue with that. All that extra money he keeps for himself could be doing a lot of good out there. He lives like a king.
BeetleJuice- the question is not does it cost money to run a church, because yes it does, the question and the issue with Corenerstone, is how much money do you bring in and where does it go. Would I rather see money going for free downloads so that the word of God can can go to more people, or would I rather it go to pay for a car for a church staff member, or to ensure that the pastors income far exceeds the average income (mode)of its members. I'm sure religion would have taken on a whole different look if Jesus had charged admission for the sermon on the mount, but Jesus taught that the word was for any who was willing to receive it,not those who were willing to pay for it. As for the operation of the church it should be ran off of the offerings and tithes of its members, and the needs of the church should not supercede the mission of the church. The mission of the church is to reach people and to teach them to follow jesus, so that they can enter into grace with God. Nice buildings and facilities are great (but not mandated) and I don't expect pastors to be paulpers, but I do think the bulk of money received by a church should go to its mission. I personally think that Pastors salary should be around the average (mode) of their congregation, especially for Pastors who preach that your tithing and givings will comeback many fold to you, that way if the congregation is truely blessed and their incomes increase so will the pastors.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 28, 2010
at 02:46:22 pm
Its called reaping and sowing roy. It is not the job of the church to provide cars and houses for the congregation. They have to sow for themselves, work their own faith and believe God for themselves. Just like he has. Who cares how he lives, he should live well, he works very hard. I dont begrudge him a thing. I sow, I reap and I live well also and I know where evrything I have and everything I am comes from..so does he.. Its a spiritual principle you have thrown away so stop being jealous and myob.
God has given us ALL things to enjoy so when someone has ALL thats a testament to the faithfulness of God and you ask pitts, he will tell you God has blessed him.
pitts not only runs the church but runs his happy ass all over the world preaching Jesus, leading people to the Lord, doing for people and he did it for many many years with no compensation, still he sowed...now its harvest time...and? It doesnt matter that you think pastors should live at a level that you are comfortable for them to live at...it isnt up to you...God blesses whom He blesses and He is faithful to His Word...when you sow, you reap, pressed down, shaken together and running over..so pitts blessings are running over..deal with it...
Beetle Love, you do not sound like a mere "visitor when I am in town."
What do you mean he took his "happy ass" all over the world with no compensation? How did his "happy ass" pay for all those plane rides, hotels and meals then?
Of course he has been blessed. Of course he will say that. He wouldn't be much of an alleged false prophet if he didn't attribute everything to God.
He is nothing more than a big fish in a small pond. He is nothing in the big scheme of things, truly. Do you really give him credit for leading people to God? Doesn't God lead people to God?
Pitts just happened to be the one whipping people into a tranced out frenzy that day.
Indeed, we do reap what we sow.
"when you sow, you reap, pressed down, shaken together and running over..so pitts blessings are running over..deal with it..."
That includes all the "Down Low" too.
Pressed down, shaken together and running over... from what I understand, you better fasten your seat belt. It's going to be a bumpy ride.
Is this why the names Robert and Amy suddenly appeared together as man and wife? Are they pressed down shaken together and running over?
Beetlejuice- Yes I do believe that he knows exactly where everything he has comes from- his congregation. I have never said that he should by the congregation homes or cars, in fact I clearly believe that the congregation should give but that they have a right to see their money being used for God's work. I don't even have a problem that if Cornerstone came out and said (as an example) that 2% (and give a weekly dollar estimate) of what we collect actually goes towards our mission of helping those in need and reaching the unsaved, 30% goes towards maintaining our building, and 60 % goes towards the Ministry staff salaries and the rest is for support staff salaries. Again with the estimated dollar amounts being shown. But even as messed up as those example numbers are I would be perfectly fine if people said I'm ok with that, I don't mind my money mostly going to the pastor. But its a different reality when the number sare hidden and people just assume there money is going to do Gods work. But I am glad that you clairfied something for me, I always thought (in error) that becoming a pastor or a minister was a calling to do Gods work as described in the bible, I never understood that it was actually means to become rich telling everyone to follow the bible so that you don't have to.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 28, 2010
at 04:11:07 pm
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 28, 2010
at 04:21:29 pm
I really dont think you would be satisfied with anything he said. If he came out with the annual report you all want to see all the time, you would claim it was falsified. If he said he got paid X amount of dollars you would call him a liar..so whats the point anyway...
And my popo bubby, I do visit when in town...I am in town a lot..I actually love cornerstone. I visited a lot of churches before going there and I have to say, it is the only one that feeds my spirit, challenges me to grow and allows me to serve Gods people in a way that I could never do at any of the other churches.
And FYI, before pitts was flying his happy ass all over the world, he was driving all over the US, sleeping in his car and basements of churches...He and his wife...
And you would still belive he could do no wrong even if it was laid out in front of you, which is what he counts on, people being 100% faithfull to him, and him alone, and no one thinking for themselves.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 28, 2010
at 05:11:34 pm
Be Lovie Dovie Juicy Juice,
You are in town a lot? Does that mean you take 23 and manage the exit from your house which is what, 10 to 30 minutes away from Reynolds at Dussel? Or do you actually consider the Pitts Property of God knows how many rentals "out of town?"
I do stand corrected from when you said, "pitts not only runs the church but runs his happy ass all over the world preaching Jesus, leading people to the Lord, doing for people and he did it for many many years with no compensation, still he sowed...
posted by beetlejuice on Oct 28, 2010 at 03:32:44 pm"
To actually mean,"And FYI, before pitts was flying his happy ass all over the world, he was driving all over the US, sleeping in his car and basements of churches...He and his wife..."
So he was driving not flying. The question of where he got money to fly, eat and sleep is moot.
Regardless, his ass was happy. I bet it was pretty humble back then. There are advantages to being last, not first.
You also posted, "he is not my pastor/bishop whoever so it matters not to me..I visit when in town....
posted by beetlejuice on Oct 26, 2010 at 02:35:01 pm"
means "I actually love cornerstone. I visited a lot of churches before going there and I have to say, it is the only one that feeds my spirit, challenges me to grow and allows me to serve Gods people in a way that I could never do at any of the other churches."
Does that mean it DOES matter, my coy little vixen?
"If he came out with the annual report you all want to see all the time, you would claim it was falsified."
That, BJ love, is a stupendous excuse to NOT publish an annual report with itemized finances! The congregation doesn't need to know where their money goes. Again I say, again I say, burn the offerings and rejoice.
I am not sure how many people would actually call Michael the financial liar. How many people believe he even runs the show? I think more people are apt to believe that his big brother is pulling the marionette strings.
Perhaps the financial anointing (is that evangelical for "responsibility"?) is laid solely upon his brother, Robert and his money-changer wife, Amy.
beetlejuice- I had an epiphany, we should agree to disagree about the money issue at Cornerstone because we see it as two different things. I see the offerings and tithes as God's, meaning people give it for the glory and work of God, part of which includes the running of the church and salaries for those involved in its administration, but mostly to fulfill the mission that God has set out for us (i.e. to reach the unsaved, and to help the poor and needy)and meaning that we need to make sure that God's will is done. While you obviously see it as being Michael's money, meaning that people give the money to Michael to do with as he sees fit. And that only michael is accountable for what he does with his money.
Now I know your just going to maintain that I'm jealous of what he has, and I have thought about that the last day or so, but no I'm really not, would I like more than I have now, sure most people if being honest would, do I deserve more than I have now, no not really. In reality I have more than I need, and more than most people in the world. If I was going to be jealous of someone with money or stuff it wouldn't be the Pitts boys, it would be someone like Gates who I don't begruge his wealth in the least.
The other thing you said that I have thought about is regarding seeing him as innoccent and that I refuse to. I went to Cornerstone some time after his first DUI, being fully aware of it and the exposure scandals (the 1997 stuff not the 1995 incident) stayed after the second DUI, and gave him the benefit of the doubt. But the longer I was at the church and the more I saw and heard (in and out of sermans)the more doubt about his character I had. So it wasn't those early incidents that made me question the truthfullness and rightousness of Michael Pitts, it was his later behaviors and actions that caused me to question my overlooking those earlier events. And as for believing financials if he put them out I would probably question them , given that I have good reason to question any of his actions at this point. However I do believe that releasing Cornerstones financials would be a good start to redeeming himself and the Church.
Lastly you keep going on about since I don't go to Cornerstone what do I care, and why don't you just let it go. And like I have said repeatedly I think we are called to stand up against what we see as false teachings and or someone misusing the word of god. But mostly I care because I have seen the damage that is done to people's faith when church leaders preach one thing and act another, or when they cherry pick verses to teach lessons that are not fully biblical, and in truth I would rather have 100 atheist trying to convert christians from God than one pastor or minister who twists the word for their own purposes trying to save christians, because the atheists usually do less harm.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 29, 2010
at 03:39:03 pm
I say if pitts said he was going to burn the offerings I would not have a problem with that..once that money leaves my hands, it is just that, out of my hands. I gave it based on my fatihfulness to God. I realize not everyone feels that way of course, I mean those who think they have a say in how the money is spent...Look at what the church does and you will see where it goes, I think an itemized statement is for the thickheaded and blind......It really is not up to me how much pitts gets paid for what he does...does anyone determine the salary of anyone anywhere you give your money???..nope-o-pope-o...the church is no different, the congregation does not determine the salary of the pastor......And where do you find these nutball websites, my my my popo part of my heart....
nope...like I said.. I know how hard he works. It is not up to me to determine his salary...nor is it up to you....if you dont like how much money he has then dont go to the church, if you do go there, leave..simple... :)
its not blindness, its just none of my business. I am a steward over my money, after it leaves my hands the person who has it is the steward and is responsible, I did my part.
roy roy roy..I agree we should agree to disagree..and for the record, I dont believe the money that comes in there should belong to pitts. it should go for the aid of people and work of God, and it does..pay attention...cornerstone does a tremendous amount for a tremendous amount of people...unfortunately for you he still gets a portion since he does deserve that. If you are a reformed cornerstonian and finally have seen the light and your motivation is to expose the fraud and deceipt in the church, maybe a different venue would be more effective. Anounomous blogging really doesnt do much..Get out there in the light roy, yell it from the street corners! Call all the newspapers and show up at the church and demand to see the books. Make an example of him roy. make a difference. help the left overs to be free!
Beetlejuice- ministers and pastors who have left the church and know far more than I do, are afraid to go against Pitts, and I know that Pitts can throw more money at laywers than I can, and I am smart enough to know that knowing something and being able to prove it in a court of law are two different things. That said however If the right prople come out with the right information I would back them all the way, and put them in touch with some people who can make a more public impact. As for showing up and demanding to see the books, legally he doesn't have to show them, and could have me arrested for trespassing, this whole discussion is more a moral argument than a legal one.
So I'm guessing that you believe it is never appropriate to question a leader of church, or to try to help others see the truth, LIke Jim Baker, or Earl Paulk should have been left alone and allowed to continue what they were doing, and people should have kept on giving money because it was out of their hands.
posted by roygbiv
on Oct 29, 2010
at 04:51:22 pm
The release of finances, I feel, is part of being transparent and accountable. You know, the way you said Michael IS. I think I side with Beetle on the fact that after the money leaves my hands, what happens with it is not up to me. That is life in an Oligarchy. That is why I would rather know how it is distributed. I think I would have a coronary if I read, "Guest Speakers: $878,977" and "Charitable Donations: $32,000."
Not that the Stone brings in that much bank. Not according to that tax report that's posted.
I believe accountability is a must for such organizations, however. I personally feel that is where the Stone suffers. Roy is right, the whole Tithe issue is more about morality. It tells me, however, that the unwillingness to show how the funds are used (or misused as the case may be) is an issue for THEM.
I am glad you would not have a problem with Burnt Offerings, BJ. I imagine you are one of the souls that doesn't take the end of the year receipt to claim on your taxes for God's kickback either.
So let us let the talk of the tithe die away. Beetle doesn't mind that everyone's hands seem to be dirty. Let us look at the other issues that have been skirted.
Those websites I find are pretty good, aren't they? They seem to be exposing the truth behind the megachurch and wannabes. Don't read any of them, they hold too many facts.
I also find it most entertaining that for a person who speaks out against Catholicism (really, Pitts, you could get far more creative), is living Catholic. Sans Mary and the specialized Saints and Intercessors.
Look at the mess man has created. The Pitts dynasty is going down right along with Jakes and Long. It is only a matter of time. The house is morally BANKRUPT.
It's reflected in the headship. That veil tore from the top down. The house will fall from the top down.
Which is what needs to happen. So Jesus can do His thing.
Oh look at that! Did you see what I did there? Full circle: Moral issues.
I am sure Michael will rebuild, as they all do, just not with as much gilding.
pope- the tax statement that was posted I believe is only for the taxable arms of the church some investments and things not covered by sec 503. The tithes and income and expenses related to being a 503 are included. At least thats how I saw it.
posted by roygbiv
on Nov 01, 2010
at 10:04:28 am
I think what is reflected in this church is humans who make mistakes are forgiven. Whatever happened with Robert and Derick, I dont know, but I wasnt there when they asked for forgiveness from God. Repentance is a personal thing and done in private. I dont think having them step down for 2 weeks, 2 months or 2 years makes any difference. When we ask for forgiveness from God and repent from our discretion, HE remembers it no more..Why should we treat others any different? I think you all are just pissed that the time they spent off the platform was not long enough to suit YOU...but I think you have forgotten, what goes on in this church doesnt include you, is not about you and doesnt affect you...I find it refreshing to be in a church where the pastors are people just like those in the congregation with faults and issues and to watch them walk it out like we do. To watch them go through things and trust God to get them through...Instead of the implied fakeness of the "I have it all together" preachers. Roy, I do not claim my tithes on income tax, never have, never will...I could care less if he had a bonfire and burnt it all every week, I think the only people who are having a problem with tithing is you.....you dont do it, dont want to do it and are mad that others do for whatever reason....you cant pick and choose waht to believe in the bible...you either believe all of it or none of it, but if you get no revelation then you will be subject to funny kool-aid and cults. Roy, as far as your question about questioning church leaders...I have faith in the God that I serve to lead me to the right church and set me under the right man/woman of God. I am not a fool, if pitts started talking about funny kool-aid, I would be gone. I am not easily swayed or convinced. When I hear him preach, I hear the voice of God answering questions that I have asked of Him. Since I was not put in charge of running this church I dont feel it is my place to question how it is run. If I felt it was off I would leave...just havent seen any of that...I guess my heart leans toward the bible in that when the nakedness of someone is revealed, I turn around and cover them rather than try to embarras or humiliate someone. That is just wrong. I just remember some mistakes that I have made in my life and if it were left up to you perfect people I would have been stoned to death. Think about your own lives people, have you ever done anything to anyone that you wish you wouldnt have? Have you ever made a ridiculously stupid mistake? Have you ever asked for forgiveness from anyone? If not, then good for you but you are a liar and God is not in you!
pope- I meant the tithes are excluded not included.
posted by roygbiv
on Nov 01, 2010
at 01:43:40 pm
beetlejuice- I do believe in forgiveness (and I frequently ask God for forgiveness), as long as one is repentent. And I don't believe in stoning. I do not believe that forgiveness allows you to just continue on doing the same things over and over it must be followed by actions, I also agree with the bible that leaders of the church need to be of a certain character (which we have pointed out to you, but you just say we are twisting the word although you can't explain how). It is quite clear that there is no offense that Michael Pitts could do that would not be forgivable to you, or that would lead you to believe that he no longer deserves to lead the church, and thats fine. I can't stop you from believing what you believe any more than you can stop me from believing what I do.
posted by roygbiv
on Nov 01, 2010
at 02:16:14 pm
roy I do believe as christians we all need to strive to reach a level of charachter that does not put the name of Jesus to shame but my point is that no matter who we are, we all dont come in that way. Whether we are member of a church or bishops...we are still subject to temptation and sin and we are all a work in progress. The bible does indicate the qualifications of bishops however it does not state that they must enter bishophood that way, that is the end result. The bible also states that even the elect shall be tempted so give a brother a break, worry about the beam in your own eye and let the Holy Ghost do His thing with the pitts brothers. And for the record, forgiveness is not abut saying what someone did is ok, it is about relaeasing them. I would forgive him anything, like I do everyone else, but that does not mean if he started killing people I would still remain there unless he stepped down, but I would certainly forgive him....
beetlejuice- I have no problem forgiving the Pitts or anyone,. However I must ask you where you get that the qualifications for the Bishop is an end and not a requirement for the position, because it is quite clear that it is the requirement for the position. this link gives a better explanation of the qulifications than I could. http://www.gotquestions.org/qualifications-elders-deacons.html
posted by roygbiv
on Nov 01, 2010
at 03:52:00 pm
"I think what is reflected in this church is humans who make mistakes are forgiven. Whatever happened with Robert and Derick, I dont know, but I wasnt there when they asked for forgiveness from God. Repentance is a personal thing and done in private..."
I side with Roy here. This isn't a "forgiveness" issue unless, of course, "forgiveness" to you means pretending like nothing ever happened. Or you feel that headship doesn't have to be accountable.
Repentance involves behavior and mind set. You better believe you would be there if this was going on... you would SEE it.
I believe that your Bishop preaches blessings from "the head down" and covering is from "the head down."
Well, according to the teachings/beliefs when you have someone corrupt in headship, guess how that Cornerstone crap rolls? Perhaps everyone's vision is clouded by hallelujah scat.
Think about it, if someone is involved in embezzlement/writing bad checks/illegal money issues, you aren't going to allow them near the church money, are you? Oh, bad example. Sorry.
If someone wants to work with the children's ministry, you would never allow a charged/convicted pedophile in there. You would most certainly always check backgrounds... Nevermind.
I think you have got me on this one.
I do not know what "proper" protocol is for such things in the evangelical world. Apparently just a dramatic "gasp" is enough in their world.
You also stated that you do not know what happened with Derrick and Robert? Have you not been reading? Of course you have. I think you DO know. And like everyone else in that church, you will sit there and pretend that elephant in the tutu isn't tap dancing across the pulpit/Vegas stage. Hey! Just like the Catholics did until people started to talk!!
I do not believe God wants us to be anyone's victim. It is one thing to stumble once, maybe twice. My goodness, though, it has become a hobby for the headship of that church.
As far as "Bishop" goes, I don't know. He used to preach against titles given by men. Ironic how he (and all the other "Bishops" popping up, so to speak) struggles wearing the mantle of a title of men. God tests us with the little things.
"Leaven of Sexual Immorality - The Corinthian church was noted as a church that was used mightily in spiritual gifts and the supernatural. Yet they were called CARNAL by Paul throughout 1 Cor. 3rd chapter. He mentions their carnality many times. In 1 Cor. 5:6-9, Paul admonishes the leadership to NOT even eat with a brother guilty of sexual immorality because of what it can do to the flock. It is interesting to me that when a Pastoral dictator is involved in sexual sin, and a person from the congregation chooses to leave because of this, how the person that leaves is the one marked as evil or divisive, yet those involved in lewd behavior are the ones who should be disciplined. If the leaders are admonished to be on the look out for sexual immorality and deal with it, how much worse is it when the leadership are the ones involved in it. Sadly, you are told not to judge or "cast any stones", rather than make
righteous judgment for your own life and guard your family."
How nice that someone still believes in the bible...
What YOU don't seem to understand is that walking away is sometimes the biggest act of love. When dynamics are toxic and there is no change in sight, everyone will be poisoned. Change begins within. But that does not mean I am forced to stay through all of the crap waiting for it to happen to someone else. That isn't my responsibility.
Obviously, you don't care about the moral/spiritual state of those who are morally/spiritually leading you. Your words tell me that. Or you care in terms of pitying them, as opposed to empathizing in a healthy manner. Something tells me that you do not know the difference, however.
This isn't about "love" or "forgiveness" and you know that.
You can forgive a philandering spouse, but that forgiveness doesn't mean you are obligated to stay in the relationship.
What does it matter anyhow? It seems you are backed into a corner and now you must do a disappearing act. Which is typical. There are no valid statements so we will run away and pretend nothing happened. Again.
Sow like you already got what you are going to get. We would have payed a lot for the Symphony to be here tonight. I'm willing to turn that over to the house plus a little somethin' somethin' for the Bishop.
When the "Bishop" or "Bishops Brother" or "Bishops Music Man" do their not-so-holy thing (but oh-so-human thing), so be it.
However, when none of them seem to step forward in responsibility or accountability, the camp becomes split.
One side of the congregants make assumptions: Alcoholic/Philanderer/Pervert. The other side of the congregants just "forgive" which to them means to "ignore." The atmosphere is dysfunction and poison. Take a look at your own families, boys. You aren't poster children for a healthy family life.
The house is divided and they don't even see that the leadership are the ones who divided it.
It's all good though. Sho' good nuff. It won't be the sleeping around or drinking that will bring them down. It won't be the hiding of the sleeping around, drinking and alleged masturbatory habits. None of that has the power.
The money, however, will. The Toledo Symphony apparently incurred a huge expense upon the Kingdom of Pitts. Sho' good nuff.
It is amazing to me that this man and his temple can have all these forums, blogs, and other internet sites revealing all of this stuff and people still support this every week with their hard earned money.
I did a search on Cedar Creek and other Toledo Temples and nothing at all shows up like this on the internet. If all this stuff is not a red flag to someone who is a member or someone who is Church shopping, I don't know what is...
Maybe it isn't so much that people can't handle the Truth, maybe they don't objectively look at this stuff or even want to know the truth to begin with...
I guess if you have years invested in this type of thing, not to mention thousands of dollars, it's hard to face the reality and disengage from the co-dependent environment.
Last thing you want is all the people that told you that place was off years ago, being absolutely right and having to humble yourself to realize you were indeed wrong and were deceived.
Religion really is a drug, an opium of the masses.
Hopefully, the internet can be the new Gutenberg Press and people can follow their curiosities to sites like this to save wasting their lives at these set ups and making sales guys rich.
Hopefully this time we don't burn down the building and leave the foundation in tact and just call it a bunch of different names like: Lutherans, Wesleyan's, Episcopal, Baptists, Independent Charismatic (Catholic Re-Incarnated), Idiots, etc.
Luther never dug out the root system. I think God is going to have quite a "come to Jesus" with these Church CEO's who spend millions on bricks, while turning away those in need, like the poor and those without clothing who sit in the bleachers.
Jesus never said, I was without a 2500 seat sanctuary and you built one for me, what you have done to the bricks you have done it unto me.
I don't know. I am thinking poor stewardship here. Build a sanctuary that costs a million plus and meet there for say 6 hours a week.
I am telling you tithing is the root problem and false teaching that feeds the rest of the BS. It is the main root and needs to be uprooted.
Tithing is a scam and has no biblical basis for how we ought to give in the NT. We are to give freely as WE PURPOSE, not even as God leads, and give to PEOPLE directly who are less fortunate.
When you give to the middle men, Church CEO's, Red Cross, Haitian Government, Pakistani Government, you get screwed and the money never gets to the intended subject.
But you know what, the people that buy the BS false hopes spewed from the lips of these wolves and who want to believe that something is right around the corner for them, or there is some unbiblical "shift", are going to have to take it the old fashioned way, and they will feel the "shift" alright when their hard earned money goes to feed some slick crook to finance his over indulgence of material goods and they work harder for that carrot that was never on the end of the rope to begin with.....
May God judge these places yesterday....and may the flood lights come on for those who are playing in the dark.
posted by neo
on Nov 09, 2010
at 11:13:10 pm
1 person liked this
Who is this "Amy" person that Pastor Robert is marrying? Is that the person he was cheating on Kelly with?
posted by qwerty
on Nov 10, 2010
at 01:26:11 pm
1 person liked this
Let’s see what’s been going on over the past 25 years? What you been doing for the Lord…imjustsayin…
Leave your “covering” or Pastor in Lima without his approval to start a church business in Toledo. So we start a “work for the Lord” with the foundation being headship rebellion and not submitting to your Pastor and his guidance and revelation for your life. Nice starting point.
Partner with your bro who buys and rents properties in the slums of Lima, OH to handle all the financials and entity set ups for the Church Business. No need to expound any further on the bunny trails here.
Teach the “false doctrines” of NT tithing and seed sowing to accumulate wealth every week that goes into an entity owned by guess who? Not the members. There is not ONE scripture in the NT that teaches tithing PERIOD for the NT believer. I welcome an open debate at any time with anyone. Bring your Bible.
Purchase RE and other Assets all over the city owned by guess who? Not the members.
Live an over the top lavish celebrity lifestyle while your staff shops at thrift stores for their clothing and one of them actually files BK??? How did that tithing doctrine work for you there DB?
Turn people away in your own congregation who need basics like food and clothing because, quote, “you are not a bank”.
Have no numerical membership growth in the Toledo Church business for say the last 15 years? Remember church membership growth is a sign of God’s blessing and anointing on your life. You werejustsayin….
Leave another one of your Pastors (CP) because you just happen to not agree with him over his new doctrinal revelation. God forbid your followers ever do that to you, not agree with any of your teaching that HAS ZERO Biblical basis and actually follow the teaching and leading of the Holy Spirit.
Have ZERO successful church business plants with the leaders “groomed” under your Apostleship, well I guess you have DR in Lima. Then again, who couldn’t start a ‘God wants you rich” Church business in the poorest city in the country? Not hard to do. Third world ain’t hard to do either. When you have a minute do the demo’s in Toledo also.
Lose countless God fearing and morally pure leaders and members because of your pride and arrogance over the years and your unwillingness to be teachable and actually listen to wise counsel with BIBLE scriptures and backing. Then treat them like mere heathens and spread lies about them to discredit them and their beliefs.
Be an example to the flock and the youth by getting 2 DUI’s and the whole exposing yourself in public debacle and accusation years ago. Not the earmarks of a “Bishop”.
Hold big hype conferences and allow other false prophets to steal money from those you are supposed to guard and protect and have them puff you up so they can get a bigger honorarium check and a another title with no fruit supporting the actual title.
Allow these people to come impart into those you are to guard, remember you are the “covering”. Oral ROBerts, Earl Paulk, Roberts Liardon, Carlton Pearson, Mark “Sell out to TBN” Chironna, Rod Parsley, Clint Brown, Barry Cook, Paula White, TD Jakes, Eddie Long, Larry Lea. (just do a little Google for all these people and you will see the carnage). Remember, birds of feather? Like attracts Like. You show me your friends; I’ll show you your future. Yea, we see the future, not good, get it, not good, good.
Now go Google Cedar Creek and their Pastor and see what comes up. See if there are countless blogs and forums trying to warn people to run now and never look back because of the danger of these co-dependent leaders and environments of control and manipulation.
You praying for a sign? You got one: The almighty Google.
From all the folks that ain’t doing nothing, we’re just saying ..Without even getting into the most recent current events.
Please return to your “First Love”. He is waiting with open arms and so are we.
Humility and being teachable are not signs of weakness they are the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.
You ask why we post, why we pray, why we expose? Because we Love and when a house is on fire and there are people in the house, you would be a heartless, careless person not to do something to try to get them out.
Neo - wow. Preach on! Preach on! I think you covered just about all of the hypocrisies being examined.
I believe you also forgot all the pregnant teens and pregnant youth leader who is now not pregnant(allegedly)... speaking of fruits of the spirit.
It is hard to believe that so many are coming forward and people are still able to just stick their heads in the sand. Which would mean that the congregation at Dussel and Reynolds is ass up.
RyanR - That article was interesting. David Huskins reportedly was the one who had rose scented oil flowing from his hands. I read on another blog a response that was to the effect, "Because a man dying and raising from the dead isn't quite enough for the elect."
85 days drunk in the spirit at Cornerstone Church. How appropo. I hope the spirit didn't drive. That's all they would need; the Holy Ghost blowing over limit after leaving the Stone.
This rumor pops up every now and then, sometimes it is Robert that is moving away, but it is usually just hopefull thinking, or people trying to convince people that something is about to come out regarding Michael so he is going to take the Money and run, but usually there is nothing new coming out, and of course he doesn't move away.
posted by roygbiv
on Dec 15, 2010
at 05:05:10 pm
This here is a story about Mike and Robert too, two young pastors with nothing better to do. Sittin' around Lord's house getting by with other's loot.
Come one take the money and run... Toledo would be better off without you.
posted by dbw8906
on Dec 16, 2010
at 08:09:37 am
1 person liked this
Moving rumors have been circulating for years. Mostly about Mike. The latest is that he is building or has built a house to become an Aussie.
I don't know if it is a good idea to hope for them to move away. They might end up in some unsuspecting town, whereas we know what to expect from those shisters.
One who speaks bullshit fluently in order to fool people out of money or other possessions, often associated with used-car salesmen.
popo! not sure about a ministry person leaving, seems to be a rumor that the bishop is building a house in austrailia and is planning on flying the coop at sopme point although this has not been confirmed by anyone..but there seems to be a mass exodus taking place among the sheep....
posted by roygbiv
on Mar 09, 2011
at 01:37:33 pm
The Rev. Jerry Jones - who presided over the wedding, was a salesman & sales manager for The Blade, for many years. He retired several years ago. Jones also used to teach a marketing class (in the evenings) at The University of Toledo. Good guy, well liked by a lot of people.