South Toledo

Call your councilperson. Ask him/her what they've done lately to bring attention to the area. Emphasize that you're a voter.

And then. you know, vote.

Why start there?How about we call Marcy and see what she can do.After all,she has had 28yrs to help us.

^I bet you're fun at parties.

Marcy sits right next to the gavel and is fighting for the little guy. Must be no little guy living in South Toledo anymore.

"Why start there?How about we call Marcy and see what she can do.After all,she has had 28yrs to help us."

Or we can go straight to the top and ask Obama what he's done for South Toledo

Kaptur provided a $1.5 grant to TARTA in 2007 for biodiesel research partly to enable TARTA to help achieve greater economy in maintaining bus routes throughout the City, including the Southwyck area. That's just one quick example I could find. Need I list more?

buckeye278 - it wouldn't matter to you what she has or has not done at the local level, given the myopic predujice. You dont seem to understand what local officials are responsible for and what Federal officials are responsible for. She represents a much larger area than just the Heatherdowns - Byrne -Glendale area.

"You dont seem to understand what local officials are responsible for and what Federal officials are responsible for."
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That EXACT statement could be made to Iott.

Oh god,what was I thinking.I forgot,it was all Bushes fault.

^I bet you're fun at parties.

I am much worse when I drink.LOL!

I have a left field idea that would not be cheap or easy, but could have potential long-term benefits for the region.

South Toledo is a bedroom community. It's all residential and neighborhood commercial and generally a nice place to live. One thing that could help businesses in the area would be to improve transportation links with the rest of the metro.

A 'mid-town' river crossing. You heard it here. Between I-75 downtown and the Maumee-Perrysburg bridge, there is no direct-access crossing for many, many miles. Cross-river commerce is restricted to certain points, and South Toledo loses out on business because of that.

If you look at a map, there is probably only one place where this would work... parallel to the Turnpike bridge where an abandoned railroad crossing sits.

Extend Byrne Road to Perrysburg township with a new river crossing. People who live on both sides of the river will have better access to businesses and amenities.

Nice - Mixman. Out of the box and nice.

Wow, this thread went into the toilet quick after 99ems asked a good question.

What are the residents and business owners doing? Have they met and discussed the issues and devised a plan, or have they given up?

Is that area represented by a CDC (Community Development Corporation)?

Have the South Toledo neighborhoods with an increase in crime organized a blockwatch?

What ideas have been tried in the past to improve the area?

mixman produced an interesting idea, so the thread is not a total loss.

One thing - I can see the owners in The HAmlet not wanting easy access to their property.

Yeah, Perrysburg doesn't even want TARTA, so what makes you think they would want a bridge?

This is my old neighborhood. Had my first job at the Arby's on Reynolds. Shopped at KMart and, back in the day, Centre Supermarket. I remember when the Holiday Inn and Ramada were nice, off turnpike motor lodges. Little Caesars--Mom & Dad took me there to eat pizza and play video games in the little game room.

First the obvious: businesses are doing a hell of a lot better on the Maumee side of Reynolds than the Toledo side. Seems to me the money has voted which side of the tracks is more business-friendly. Look at the Toledo side--it's like it has been "business carpet-bombed"...with a gaping hole where a once vibrant shopping center once stood. Other side of Reynolds (Maumee): Restaurants, car dealerships, good motels, Meijer, a few sports bars (although some have up and closed). Then go up Dussel and hit all the other restaurants and, of course, Arrowhead Park.

The city of Toledo bitches and moans about how Arrowhead stole business. How 'bout instead of bitching you try to compete and keep that tax base in the city. Apparently that's asking the impossible.

Jr: Have the South Toledo neighborhoods with an increase in crime organized a blockwatch?

In many of the neighborhoods in that area (especially Eastgate/Cass, some on Heatherdowns), the blocks are too big to walk and don't have sidewalks...leading to a mushy miserable walk in October/November and the spring. Good idea, though.

Also, someone needs to figure out what city money was spent to lure Larry Dillon to do........absolutely nothing with the Southwyck property. If its gonna sit empty for 10 years, make it friggin' community park. Everybody seems to forget all the fuss about Southwyck as recently as 3 years ago. Now nothing. Dead topic.

The residents are getting older. More "trashy" folks are creeping into the neighborhood (people that don't take care of their yards and houses). But I think another hinderance is also that there is a general increase in crime...and TPD has shrunk. May as well live in Maumee or elsewhere where you can be pretty sure a cop will come if you are robbed or something.

Just general thoughts...

What about trying to lure a mega water park onto the Southwyck property? Tax credits - whatever it takes. Free water? Just a thought.

There are many neighborhood block watch's in south Toledo. For example Arlington Neighborhood Assoc., Burroughs Neighborhood and Highland Park Block Watch.

More sad South End news - I heard on the radio today that Dudley's is being sold at a bank ordered auction. I didn't even know it was closed - or is it?

I think South Toledo is being hit by the long term effects of suburban sprawl. When my grandparents moved to the Byrne and Glendale area in the early 1960's, it was the edge of the universe. And, of course, downtown was the center. But now every household has two cars, employers have spread out and you can live anywhere in the metro Toledo or just over the line and be to work in less than 20 minutes.

I wish I knew what could be done in the South Toledo area as I live and work here. But it is an aging community and the older residents are slowly dying and moving out while being replaced with folks who don't keep up the neighborhood. Look at how nice the Arlington area used to be and look at it now. I worry that if things don't turn around (or at least stop sliding so fast) in 20 years Crossgates and Beverly will be the new New Old South End.

What about a redeveloped Southland? With a new Southwyck on the back burner, Southland (and Glendale with the new Wal-Mart) is the main commercial hub of the area.

If a developer were to buy up the existing, outdated center - along with the 'problem' apartments at Byrne and Arlington, and turn all that into a modern, mixed use development, that would do wonders for the area.

It could include the same neighborhood commercial it has now like Kroger and small shops, but also have a couple nice restaurants, some light retail, and maybe some new condo/loft apartments. Young professionals and medical students would have some attractive housing options.

UTMC would probably get behind it since they are right next door. Captive visitors at the Toledo Hilton are looking for something to do. Re-imagine that whole corner.

It just seems like yesterday that southwyck was the most popular mall in the city.Now it is hard to drive by there and see what it has become.It is too bad that the fallen timbers mall wasn't built there instead of where it is.It seems like such a waste of land both in the city and out in the burbs.How long will it take until the new mall becomes southwyck.Also,how about the theaters in Maumee?They were very nice and now they are also just a memory.We have become a throw away society.It is sad when you look at the sprawl and for what?

When the population stays the same, all we do is rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic by building new malls and restaurants in the suburbs. But, development follows the roads, and the people follow the development. Blame I-475.

Talk back to the people:

Foodie: I heard on the radio today that Dudley's is being sold

Sad if true. I actually liked that place more before they remodeled it 10-15 years ago to fit in more people!

Ace_Face: I'm more and more convinced that what you say will happen will happen. Every time I go to my mom's house, I can see some decline....

Mixman: Good ideas about Southland. UT should throw its weight around a little and get some things cleaned up (starting with the rootin'-tootin'-shootin'-partyin'-rapin'-screamin' apartment complexes between Southland and the church at the corner of Byrne & Arlington). But then again, I look at the neighborhood north of UT's main campus and think they are pretty poor at exerting influence on their immediate surroundings.

The 2 biggest problems with Southland are (a) it's design is completely out of date and (b) another huge competing center anchored by WalMart down the street. In regards to (a), unless you are Kroger or another anchor tenant, your storefront can't even be seen from Glendale or Byrne. Its worse than the WalMart complex down the street...and that's quite a ways away from Glendale. Plus, I'd say 75% of the parking spaces there are never used, making it look not happening...and that isn't a new phenomenon. Hell, my dad brought me there to learn the difference between the brake and gas pedal when I got my learners permit because he knew I wasn't going to hit anything! The center needs a "re-imagination"...or use some more of that parking lot space for further development.

When was Southland built anyway? 1960?

A developer should buy and tear down the entire present-day Southland plus the apartments to the north and build something akin to a mini Levis Commons - only featuring more neighborhood commercial instead of upscale retail.

There could be storefronts facing Byrne from the McDonald's up to Arlington. Businesses could be much closer to Byrne and Glendale, and the parking lots could be located properly. The project would have a residential component, be modern and sharp looking. The whole thing could tie in with the medical center campus and Hilton.

oldhometown: Funny you mention that you liked it prior to the expansion. We've always thought the same. I don't know why but after they got the new diner up and running, the recipes and quality suffered.

I used to work right across the street from the old location. We made many a Dudley run across Reynolds Rd. Remember how they used to close up shop for the winter? It gave you something to look forward to come spring time. Sad.

<i>"Good ideas about Southland. UT should throw its weight around a little and get some things cleaned up (starting with the rootin'-tootin'-shootin'-partyin'-rapin'-screamin' apartment complexes between Southland and the church at the corner of Byrne & Arlington). But then again, I look at the neighborhood north of UT's main campus and think they are pretty poor at exerting influence on their immediate surroundings."</i>

Doubtful it'll happen. The city has done much to marginalize the University. The city would be smart to work with UT. Instead they go out of their way to make the students feel unwelcome (right off campus btw). The students represent the largest influx of outside money. A large portion come from outside of the NW Ohio area. They could easily get jobs and stay here. But many of the ones I went to school with left as soon as they graduated because they didn't feel like they were wanted because they were marginalized and harassed for 4 years.

MikeyA you also have to understand that in that area there are what you would call "well to do" people and don't always appreciate someone who speaks with phrases like "holla at you later" or nor do they appreciate the rising crime that is happening around the campus.

I'm not blaming the students but all of the issues in the area just get superimposed on them.

"The city has done much to marginalize the University. The city would be smart to work with UT."

Truer words have been seldom spoken Mikey. I believe too few citizens realize how lucky we are to have a university the stature of UT.

Especially since the merger of UT and MUO took place. We have two top notch institutions of higher learning that seem to receive short shriff from most of our politicos. That needs to change. The business community is finally learning what an absolute out of the box thinking gem Rocket Ventures is. High time those we elect do the same.

The politicians have too much ego (and I mean everyone--mayor, council, comissioners, school board, everyone) to want an actual partnership with the University. They (politicos) all want an "angle". How many of these assclowns have bashed the university over this 'n' that?

So, the University will do its own thing and do it well until someone from the political side decides to bridge the gap for the common good. And well they should--it isn't their responsibility to clean up the city. Their responsibility is first and foremost to the students.

I am an alumni. I have come to appreciate my school more over the years (at the time I was bummed to "stay home" for college, but hey--I graduated with no debt!). I don't think everyone in Toledo gets how much having a medical school at a great teaching hospital means to the stature of the University. Brings in a lot of talent and money. The city would be wise to start working with UT instead of fighting them.

Southwyck would make an ideal buffalo park. Tear up the concrete, plant prairie grasses, fence it in and establish a herd of bison. Around the perimeter of the property, create urban farm/homestead house lots and allow small herds of livestock and pet rescue shelters.

It would be great to have drinks on the balcony of a new restaurant and look out over the sun setting on an urban herd of bison. There are other business opportunities (farm stands, small-scale bakeries, specialty restaurants, nature-themed preschool, greenhouses, etc.) in addition to the need for a park ranger station, information center, animal technician training programs, and whatever else might grow in such an environment.

I have seen suburban herds along highways around the U.S. The sight makes people want to pull over and take pictures. And, as we all know, once you've stopped the car, you might as well have a bite to eat and go shopping!

What's wrong with Southland the way it is. It wasn't that long ago that it was remodeled. I go there all the time. It just needs a few more stores. It doesn't make sense to tear down perfectly good buildings.Also the apartments next door still look good.at least on the outside.

Southland isn't bad looking, it's just that the stores aren't very good: two dollar stores, a Big Lots, Rent-a-Center and a nail salon. Plus a Kroger. The Charter One across the street is robbed every few weeks and the Glenbyrne shopping center kittie corner hasn't been too great ever since Henry J's moved out almost 20 years ago. The Video News store in that plaza is one of the sketchiest video stores I have ever been in. But the other corner where Biggby, Doc Watson's and Tasty Thai are is always jammed. Go figure.

Since I've lived in South Toledo for the past 4 years I thought I should add my thoughts.

First of all I think the buffalo park idea is awesome, although I think the effort to remove all that concrete would be high and it would be wasteful to ignore the probably still functional and valuable underground infrastructure (like sewer lines).

One last thing: I really like hearing all the crazy ideas people have for improving Toledo. Someone should start a thread where people can add more, even if it's an amusement park on the water.

Second, I'd like to add that UT is an interesting place in that it is the only university I've ever seen where there is no local business district within walking distance for the students to spend their discretionary income, for better or worse. I think part of the reason is that it is bordered by major roads (Secor and Dorr especially on the Southwest) that are not pleasant to cross. Drivers in Toledo are not trustworthy and harassment of pedestrians and bike riders is more common here for some reason. I think a skybridge over Dorr, leading to the small crop of businesses at "the oasis" or whatever that place is called might help, although I wish there was more to that area.

Third, I would like to put in a plug for Plate 21 in South Toledo (on Rugby, off of S Detroit). It is a cool cafe that frequently hosts live music and provides a nice place for people to sit and talk and you commonly see people studying there, which reminds you that there does exist a sizable group of people in Toledo who are trying to better themselves and hopefully the rest of the world (a feeling that I sometimes miss as I drive by the numerous restaurant chains). I think this place is a good "nucleus" that attracts people to the area and gives people a reason to live in South Toledo. I hope that it lasts for a long time, spend money there!

Ace--Tasty Thai is one of my favorite Thai places (and not just in Toledo). It ain't fancy, but it sure is good. Love it.

And you're right about Glenbyrne Center. Horrible since Henry J's closed shop. Just not a damn thing I'd want to "shop" at, but I guess you need those type of centers too.

Of course, maybe I'm biased because I remember going to the medical place in that shopping center to get blood tests and booster shots when I was a little kid.

Also, I went to kindergarten at the church right next to Glenbyrne Center.

I'm up for a buffalo park @ Southwyck. And to answer the poster above me, maybe we can utilize all the sewer lines to get rid of the buffalo crap!

KertapNohj , Plate 21 is a GREAT coffee shop. Thanks for bringing it up.

Just had some Pad Se Ewe from Tasty Thai tonight. Tasty.

Plate 21 just switched their bean supplier and their coffee tastes even better now. And their pistachio muffin is awesome! I just wish they were open on Sundays....

At the old mall site, why don't hey build an outside roller rink for roller hockey, a skateboard park, and surrounding that some restaurants and gift shops geared towards that kind of crowd. It would be a recreational area but with businesses.

*** Disclaimer *** You will all call me racist and "teabagger" but the truth hurts.

The problem with South Toledo is it became the convenient dumping ground for section 8 residents. Around the country as inter-city housing complexes close down due to age, dilapidation, mold problems, ect... these people need to be moved somewhere. Investors or people who are moving turn their homes in the suburbs or residential neighborhoods into section 8 rentals. People are moved into neighborhoods where they have paid nothing to be there and don't give a rats ass about the area because they have no skin in the game. They don't care about the fact you put 10 grand into rehabilitating your home or increasing your curb appeal while they care little if their lawn looks like a untended forest or that they bring the crime downtown to your neighborhood. What do they have to loose?

The 43612 area has massively suffered due to section 8 migration over the last 10 years. What was once are wonderful middle class neighborhood is slowly becoming handout heaven with all the trapping that come along with it.

Why would someone invest in a fixer up home and try to beautify an area when hot johnny hangs out in front of your house? Why move into a neighborhood where crime is going up? Would you open a business to be harassed by kids who walk the streets at all hours of the night?

So people who can afford to leave do so, and those who don't just get tired of it and leave an unpaid mortgage behind for safety and piece and quite. All this does is exasperate the problem. But no politico is willing to take a "black eye" and put their foot down to stop it, the current admin is projected it increase welfare spending by 30%!

This isn't a Toledo problem, it's a national problem. We can't enact drug testing for welfare recipients because that would be a violation of their "civil rights" but they have the right to destroy what where once wonderful areas.

Actually, the school system is one of the biggest factors of people moving out of the South End (SE). I live in the “New” SE behind what used to be Southwyck Mall. We’ve had multiple families decide to leave the neighbor than to send their kids to Glendale Feilbach or Byrndale. My kids go to private school, so for us we got a huge house, in great shape, for a very nice price. But for many of my neighbors, they’re leaving…

The section 8 housing near the Black Pearl restaurant looks nice from the street,but I have seen on many occasions an unmarked Metro drug unit vehicle parked just outside the entrance of the apartment complex.I also have seen groups of youths wandering the parking lot and on one occasion while we were eating dinner there were two young men(adults) pressing their lips against the windows and making faces at the patrons of the restaurant.They continued doing this until the manager and staff went out to chase them away.

SensorG - What do section 8 school children normally do to the quality of the education when they migrate in to the school district?

It understandable because they are spending tax dollars that they do not chip in for. More and more students who's parents don't contribute into the pot. Can't complain about class size or teacher quality when you are paying none of the bill.

Detroit is welfare central and only 30% of the kids graduate. The average section 8 family shows little to no value in education. Frankly little value for anything or the people or world around them.

People need help and I believe there should be systems in place to help them but 40 years of failure by our current social systems have done nothing but destroy middle class neighborhoods. Lets just keep dumping dollars down the drain.

The real cost are the child's lives who see nothing but handouts and are lead to believe they can never be anything better than a recipient.

DBW, you can't have it both ways, that is decreasing federal spending while increasing restrictions on handouts. They are opposite values, because the restrictions increase the size and the role of government in those handouts. Do you have any idea at how expensive it would be to drug test every applicant for welfare? How many governemnt clinics would have to spring up overnight with an untold number of new government employees? The current screening process is about as balanced as one can get for efficiency and cost effectiveness.

I will be the first to admit that the current system of handouts is abused and needs to be reconsidered. But you can't do it by giving it more power to allocate. I suggest a 30 year phase out, with a 2-3% reduction in all benefits across the board per year, not accounting for inflation. It will provide enough incentive for people to start getting their acts together without creating pandemonium in the streets overnight.

And the root cause of our current problems are that people who are the least suited to raising productive members of society are the ones who are having the most children. But we believe in this country that anyone has a right to reproduce as they wish, as a natural and fundamental right. Only a few communist and highly socialized countries have ever restricted the right to reproduce in the modern era. So, one solution to the problem is socialism/communism with high restrictions on individual rights, the other is an aristocracy, where the lower classes are subverted in exchange for the benefit of a few, with no class mobility. I think the middle ground, where we are right now, is about as good as we can get without mandatory education regarding parenting/child raising or restricting childbirth through law/taxation.

B-Swell you are 100& right with "the root cause of our current problems are that people who are the least suited to raising productive members of society are the ones who are having the most children".

But our current system rewards you for making more mistakes! Every unprotected sex act is a entry into the welfare lottery. And a good chance the progeny will vote Democratic, nothing like breeding your own voting base huh?

We paid 23 million to Kenya to force them to write abortion laws into their constitution, and another 20 million to teach Kenyans to wash their junk, and another 20 million to buy GE Ranges (you wonder why GE supports the Obama team so much) and give them away to 3rd world countries, and we keep fighting in the catbox called the Middle East (even though Obama said he would not). We hired thousands of IRS agents just to run a healthcare program the majority doesn't want, ect...

I am not a member of the Tea Party and I understand things need to be paid for in this country but B-Swell there is plenty of money for quarterly urine testing, but that would hurt the democratic voting base, now we wouldn't want that. Maybe we can get some of those Kenyans with clean genitals to come over and administer the test.

Southland is okay? You gotta be kidding. It may have gotten a facelift, but it's still incredibly outdated by modern standards, and could offer so much more to the neighboring residents. There could be trendy shops and restaurants there that draw people from all over the city instead of dollar stores and Big Lots.

And the apartments complexes nearby may also look nice, but are undeniably home to some of South Toledo's biggest crime stories.

The medical campus is a jewel for the region and deserves something better next door.

This is pretty simple. The town moved farther away from the city center and crime clusters move into what used to be middle and upper income neighborhoods without much criminal activity.

The areas of South Toledo you guys are wishing to return to its' more glorious past are long gone.

Areas that used to be quiet and safe such as Byrne/Glendale & Airport from Westwood to Reynolds now have high concentrations of section 8 trash.

The middle and upper class people have moved farther away from Toledo, to Maumee, Monclova, Perrysburg, Sylvania, and Waterville. Unfortunately they took their money with them and during the intermediate future, most of them aren't going to shop at Reynolds/Heatherdowns/Glendale and Southland Mall regardless what's built there.

No public money should be used rebuilding Southwyck or "revitalizing" the area near Southland Mall.

If a water park is built at Southwyck, the capital should be from the private sector and not the Toledo taxpayers.

Toledo politicians have wasted enough money on ridiculous projects such as: the road-to-nowhere Marina District, Erie Street Market, Docks, Hillcrest, Commodore Perry, Portside/COSI/Imagination Station, and Carty's bike trails.

Had the city spent OUR money more wisely, we wouldn't be paying the $180 per year garbage fee.

The downfall starts with parents. They don't care what their kids are doing and/or can't control them so the kids lose their adult input. Then the parents shove them off to public school for them to handle the problem. The public schools can't and shouldn't have to do what the parents can't so all that ends up happening is kids get sent to the next higher grade without education, without discipline and without parental guidance. The neighborhoods accept this "rebellous" behavior as more and more find it acceptable and what you end up having is south toledo.

I would say in general you're right hockeyfan, but there ARE some good parents living in South Toledo. Or at least they're trying to be good parents, though they're up against some pretty bad outside influences.

6th_Floor makes a point: The reason there are Big Lots and Dollar Stores in Southland is because people patronize those places. In my South Toledo neighborhood, off Arlington, there's not a whole lot of discretionary money floating around that could be spent at "nicer" restaurants and shops even if you filled Southland to the brim with them. And I can't imagine what shop or restaurant would be so worthwhile that it'd draw crowds from Perrysburg or Sylvania, for example. So I think if you want to revitalize South Toledo, there's only so far that a "re-do" or "upgrade" of the service sector -- shops, restaurants, hotels -- can take you. What South Toledo -- and ALL of Toledo -- needs is more industry of the production type, or possibly research, or ... I wish I knew. But honestly, I feel like adding or upgrading restaurants or shops is actually a logical progression of revitalization AFTER you've already got a better income base established, and to do that, (South) Toledo needs better-paying jobs, whether they're blue collar or white collar. You can't rely on pink collar jobs in the service industry to revitalize anything, because the people working there don't usually get paid enough to patronize the places they're working at.

Some time ago when their was talk of closing COSI as was the will of the voters someone mentioned that it brought in lots of tourists. To which I pointed out the large ball of twine in Minnesota received more visitors and thus we should start our own ball of twine.

Southwyck could be just the place for that ball of twine.

C'mon think BIG here people!

Those are good points, especially how cities like Toledo have grown outward towards greenfield suburbia. I also agree that Toledo proper needs more quality jobs and private sector investment.

But... and not to harp on the Southland thing too much - I think that corner could really be something special. Look at the new Westgate. I drive 8 miles to shop at Fresh Market and eat at Five Guys.

Why does West Toledo deserve a shiny new shopping center any more than South Toledo? The Arlington neighborhood between Detroit & The Trail has a much different economic makeup than the Crossgates or Beverly or River Road neighborhoods. There are still a lot of middle to upper-middle and even some upper income families who might like to have a proper shopping center nearby.

If they did it right, people from Maumee and other surrounding areas would surely patronize it - just like Westgate.

"Look at the new Westgate. Why does West Toledo deserve a shiny new shopping center any more than South Toledo?"

I don't think it's about one area deserving something more than another area of the city.

Westgate opened in 1957. In August of 2005, the Westgate property owner, Liz Holland, announced her redevelopment plans. The project was supposed to cost Holland's group at least $30 million.

In December 2005, Mayor Ford said the city and state would contribute some money to the Westgate redevelopment.

The Westgate project met resistance from some local officials and residents, and for a brief time, the project seemed in peril.

In May of 2006, demolition of the old Westgate began.

In January of 2007, if not earlier, the first new Westgate store(s) opened. Project announcement to new stores in less than two years.

The Westgate redevelopment project was led by the property owner, not government. Liz Holland basically said, this is what I'm doing, so jump on board. I'm guessing the city and state have made more money from the new Westgate than they invested in the redevelopment effort.

In the spring of 2006, the taxpayer investment in a new Westgate was said to be $2.5 million.

In January of 2006, Liz Holland said

The redevelopment of the Westfield Franklin Park mall was also led by the owners and not government.

Government has been leading the development efforts of the Marina District and Southwyck mall properties.

Who owns the Southland property?

It seems the owners of the Southwyck mall property have never had much interest in redevelopment.

Westfield and Westgate owners redevelop their lots into something new and shiny.

Southland and Southwyck owners ...???

The Ws lead the Ss. West Toledo vs South Toledo. I would say Westgate and Westfield benefit from being close to Ottawa Hills and Sylvania.

And even though the new Westgate and Westfield properties are comprised of mostly chain stores, other stores, including locally owned ones, exist nearby. I'm guessing the Cricket West stores appreciate a new Westgate, but I don't know that for sure.

Mixman, you and others are missing alot of the point here.

An economy doesn't grow and prosper with retail. The private sector decided to invest money in areas such as Westgatge, Westfield, Levis Commons, and Fallen Timbers.

Frankly, alot of the current retail in the Toledo area needs to close, so the businesses that survive the storm can prosper.

What am I missing here? Do you guys not see even Levis Commons and Fallen Timbers are struggling?

Larry Dillin has been handed millions of Toledo tax dollars by local politicians to build extra retail capacity here that we didn't need.

If the city wants to help the local economy, it can skip the water park at Southwyck and give it to a company wanting to build a solar plant on the site.

Toledoans will also help the local economy and especially retail businesses, via voting against issue 5, the tps levy (robbery) request.

Cricket West has several empty spaces. They can probably point their fingers at Westgate being remodeled.

The city jumps up and down about all the bars and restaurants that have opened since the downtown stadiums were built.

LOL...drive east along Summit Street past Cherry and several bars that used to prosper there have since closed. I'm sure as many bars and restaurants around the former Mud Hens stadium also have been since seen their sales fall.

Thus, none of this gov't spending has created any net economic growth or long-term job growth. However, they continue chest-pounding about these self-proclaimed great projects have benefited the area.

Again, an economy doesn't prosper with everyone washing each others' laundry. The same is true about bars and restaurants.

Westgate probably benefits from a larger trade area and being close to I-475.

I agree that government sponsored reshuffling of service-oriented businesses is not the answer to the job creation issue.

Tiny improvements here and there like the new Westgate or the bar & restaurant boom in the warehouse district have positive long-term effects for the whole region. They help Toledo shed its stuck-in-the 50s, rust belt image and show people it's a nice place to live.

South Toledo already has a lot to offer... the zoo, several parks, stable neighborhoods, UTMC, the river. It's up to the people who care about it to keep it going.

I went through the parking lot at Cricket West this evening. About half the stores are vacant both in front and rear of the plaza.

I posted on the Southwyck Mall thread. And that thread will also fit here. I love Toledo, That is the Toledo I once knew. That Toledo (I'm sorry to say), is gone and grants, public investments, tax breaks and any other financial razzle dazzle in Toledo is nothing more than smoked glass and mirrors. If Toledo (or any other city) is to survive, it must stop gangs, drugs and crime. No politician, or political party is ready to hit the problem at it's roots. I feel bad about our military being deployed time and time again into harms way. The National Guard was never intended for these deployments. If our Nation made the decision to win the war on terrorism and urban terrorism and reinitiated the draft, you would see carnage in our cities like never before. Their would be the civil war like we have never seen or could believe.

When a society raises many many generations on a welfare system, then that society is "trained" to perform the duties of sustaining their lives by working the welfare system. Generation after generation.

My intention is not to offend anyone. As a retiree with almost 50 years of working for wages and paying taxes, the above is just my observation. By the way, I worked on the construction of Southwyck; my Dad on Great Eastern and Miricle Mile. Many of the features and structures that are now being demolished have my family name on them and it hurts to see them go.

jr - thank you and to answer your questions, i am a business owner in the South End and it is very difficult. I have contacted Collins the call was never returned after he said he would put me in contact with the development department - now I am waiting on Ludeman.

There is a large empty grocery store on Byrne (the former Farmer Jack) - why not turn it into an indoor sports complex for soocer, basketabll, skating, ice skating. This could fill up with leagues for kids and adults due to the recent cut backs at TPS w sports.

There are several block watches organized in the area but I really think City Council needs to step up and make it happen! Citizens w no pull can only do so much....

Also as for the development at Westfield do you really not think that the local gov had nothing to do with it. They could do a much better job marketing South Toledo to developers

bump

Prostitution went down, right?