COSI: A Lesson for Columbus

museums are the nation's attics? thats one of the most idiotic quotes ive seen on this website. come on

Don't worry about having a garage sale for COSI's exhibits. When the budget was tight a couple years ago, they decided to eliminate the storage facility (at Willis Day) and threw out all the unused exbitits!!!!! It was suggested trying to sell them, but the directors knew better! Another example of mistakes that lead to COSI's demise!

These COSI threads will drive me to drink! One more time: please go back two pages to:COSI-Issue 14, and re read my comments dated Oct30th(comments 4,9 and/or 10).

One more time:
COSI is a regional asset.
As such, the potential audience is more than 2 million people.
Why do we continue to look at it as a Toledo asset?
Why do we continue to look at it as a County asset?
If it is to be funded privately, and become a beacon of light that our region is serious about transforming itself into a technology savvy spot, why are we so averse to casting a wider net?
Why don't we ask all of the companies in the region that are dabling in various alternative energy initiatives to throw some money into the pot, and use COSI to educate the REGIONAL citizenry on the why's and wherefor's of alternative energy?

We all suffer from myopia! Let's not pass it on to our kids!!

No Lew, let's pass on the lesson to "our kids" that somebody else should always foot the bill for entertainment. Government (aka the taxpayers), private business, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny? Ah what the hell, don't forget the Tooth Fairy too! If kids want to learn about science, what's wrong with our "regional asset" called the library? How about all of these new and improved schools being built here in Toledo thanks to tobacco money. Like we don't have extremely well funded alternatives to COSI?

Personally I'd rather see private business fund expansion into their operations rather than funding COSI. Then when these "kids" become of age these expanded private businesses can provide "our kids" living wage employment instead of Saturday entertainment.

Beenthere, I might offer $500 for the "bike-on-a-cable" ride but then I'd have to get insured to use it. I wonder if COSI would go for that?

But I'm having "second thoughts". It probably has to be put in some technical way, and it would be my luck that "Mooch" and "Eddie", my drinking buddies, would screw it up, and fall off after tapping the keg, and trying out "their" ride. And I could just see the neighborhood kids crashing down on the lawn. Oh well, the dream delayed.

I must argue with you Lew (even if it does drive you to drink), COSI is NOT a regional asset. It is a lesson in how NOT to run an institution! It is a lesson in how NOT to treat loyal employees. It is a shining example of what happens when a board president (Mike Walsh) is allowed to bring in a consultant (Jim Mahally) who's idea of fixing the problems is to fire (or force to resign) the people who cared about the mission of COSI, and to promote those responsible for the very problems he was sent in to fix.

I admire Dave Waterman. He was courageous enough to take on a loosing battle. But, it was too little, too late. Maybe other not for profits can learn from COSI's mistakes.

beenthere,
As a former forklift driver for Willis Day I know exactly what you are talking about. COSI had a decent amount of things in storage in the warehouse, but for the life of me I could not figure out why they were holding on to that junk. They didn;'t have working exhibits there but boxes of old brochures, empty crates, pretty much just crap. I know, as i helped some of it into trash dumpsters. I'm not sure how taking out the trash led to their closing down though. At least they wern't payin rent on a bunch of junk.

Forkman, There WERE exhibits at Willys Day. I saw them first hand. They probably pitched those first, and then held on to the old crap a while longer. Paying storage fees for old crap would make sense to the same minds that closed the museum for a day (and turned away paying customers, as noted in the Blade), while holding a meeting to determine their next move after the levy failure. Like, they couldn't have held the meeting after 5pm?

Beenthere, maybe the stuff was "picked through" by employees for what they wanted. That is one of the benefits of working dead-end jobs. I had a friend that used to work for "Goodwill".

He would go out, and sit by the trailer waiting for stuff to come in. He always took the "good" magazines, and other stuff. When you're paid below minimum wage you think it is your due.

museums are the nation's attics? thats one of the most idiotic quotes ive seen on this website. come on

Upso, wake up - that's not original to OSB or this site.

The Smithsonian has been called "The Nation's Attic" for decades. Where've you been?

http://www.researchchannel.org/prog/displayevent.aspx?rID=10803&fID=345

If it's a regional asset, then move COSI out of downtown Toledo, since it obviously failed at the location. Real estate elsewhere may be too expensive, but who knows until some serious looking has been done. If saving COSI involves keeping it in downtown Toledo, then to hell with it. I want to see a new plan that means putting COSI or some other hands-on museum somewhere else. Why don't all these businesses get together and form a competing hands-on science museum with a business plan and location that has the potential to be more successful?

billy, im awake. i guess i should have included this part "Stuff everyone wants, but no one wants enough to take up space in their homes."

it's an idiotic sentiment, weather or not its been said before. the notion that we could all afford for an example a great work by picasso.. but we all just don't have the room in our homes is stupid. museums are there to share with the world things that are important enough not to be held in one person's home but instead shared with all.

and im not defending cosi. just defending museums in general.

LEW needs to understand that the current degraded environment of Toledo is the legacy passed on by the previous generation of Neo-Communists. Further Communism is obviously not going to improve matters.

The public and private domains should continue to have sharp divisions. LEW's sentiment is that they should merge. I can only then suggest he move and find another NATION where the merger of business and government is part of the legal structure to begin with.

O.K., please bear with me, but here are my responses to Guest Zero, Jr.,BeenThere, and RobRob, not necessarily in order:

Public and Private domains merge only in Socialistic and Communistic Societies. In a Capitalistic,Free Market Society they must be seperate, but work together understanding each other's roles.
The role of the public sector is administration of our tax dollars as efficiently and effectively as possible.
The role of the private sector is leadership.

Back in the 70's and 80's there was leadership from the private sector. We had the Committe of 100, and then the Area Growth Committee, all private sector entities.
We had a City Manager form of Govt., and tax dollars were efficiently spent.
So what happened?
We went to a strong Mayor form of Govt. and the private sector went away. Why? I don't know, but we blew it. (But that could be another thread).

Jr., I'm a bit surprised by your comments. If Toledo really is "The Jewel of Lake Erie West", don't we want as many things downtown as possible so that we could draw in tourist dollars and their multiplier effect? Ann Arbor has done an excellent job of becoming an "in" destination. Shouldn't Toledo be striving for the same kind of thing?

And, BeenThere, I fully agree with your comments, but all of those things happened because COSI was treated as a local asset, and we did not seek to draw from the entire region. In spite of the mistakes that were made, had we drawn in more volume, would we perhaps been less "penny wise and pound foolish"?
RobRob, if you read my previous posts on the "COSI-Issue14" thread, you'll see that I agree completely that COSI should be privately run. The $5.71 per thousand was to be a kick start in our transformation to a Technology based economy (read "Technology Corridor" as a starter). Who knows, it may still happen! Watch developments over the next several weeks. They may surprise us all!

GZ-

So, this means we shouldn't have things like the National Science Foundation, a major force in driving R&D in this country (although proportionally getting smaller), since their federal dollars routinely go to private organizations??? National Endowment for the Humanities? National Endowment for the Arts? Ohio Arts Council, or Arts Council Greater Toledo? Citifest (privately org, primarily funded through city dollars, though, I believe)? And sure as heck shouldn't go to provide infrastructure improvements or tax abatements for organizations like Jeep or GM Powertrain. And then the whole charter school movement is done, right, as that's public dollars going right into the pocket of private organizations.

I just don't buy that public money should not be used to support assets important to a community. Comparing that to Communism or Socialism is way off base. Government's role includes identifying issues of importance to its constituents (local, regional, statewide, national), and working to identify pathways and solutions.

Okay...back to reality...we've had all these 'amenities' downtown for how many years and the downtown is still in decline. They haven't done anything to change the path, so what makes us think that more of the same will give us different results?

Definition of stupidity: doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.

Even today's Blade says that we need more government subsidized ventures in downtown, completely ignoring the current failures of such entities AND their inability to change the direction downtown is currently on. But they "hope."

I don't believe in writing off the downtown area, but I do believe in changing the approach. And I don't think this has anything to do with whether we have a strong-mayor form of government or not. The problem isn't the form of government but the type of people we keep putting into it.

What's wrong with writing off the down-town? I see complaints all the time how we're losing farmland. Maybe the downtown area could become the new "truck gardens". It would certainly be close to the Farmer's Market.

Who said Toledo is the Jewel of Lake Erie West? I never made that statement. Here's the thing, this region is not just Toledo. The region is bigger than Toledo.

Tourist dollars? Wait a minute. I thought COSI was about the children?

See, I don't think this has anything to do with educating children and getting them interested in science. I think this has everything to do with having something in a downtown building that would otherwise be vacant. It's about getting people in downtown Toledo and hoping they spend money in downtown Toledo. It's about making downtown Toledo appear to be vibrant. And the children and their alleged science education are being used.

If it was truly about getting children interested in science, then a hands-on science museum could be located anywhere, such as Sylvania, Maumee, or northern Wood County, or maybe even across the line in Michigan. Why this bias towards downtown Toledo when discussing the region?

People in the Toledo area like parking in a lot next to the building or business they are entering. COSI located somewhere else could attract more visitors by having what this area calls easier parking. The Warehouse District or Uptown would be an improvent over COSI's current location. But I bet it would draw more people if COSI was located in West Toledo or South Toledo or in a suburb.

COSI's attendance has declined steadily since 2001. Why would a new levy change that? Fresh exhibits? What does that mean, "fresh exhibits?" No proof exists that tells us that a new levy would reverse the trend of declining attendance at COSI.

COSI and the Erie Street Market began when Carty was mayor back in the 90's, and I'm sure he doesn't want to see the plugs pulled on these two orgs that obviously have been on life support for a few years now. So the taxpayers pay for it.

The blame for COSI's problems does NOT belong to those voters who voted NO in 2006 and 2007. 100% of the blame goes to COSI's management.

What's needed is a new design for a new hands-on science museum at a new location that's lead by a new management team with a new business plan.

Jr., you and I agree on much more than we disagree, but I'd rather have our dialogue occur over a cup of coffee in the Westgate area. I'm much better with words than typing.
You name the time and place. I'll buy.

And now, for Maggie: Downtown is still in decline because any govt, has two strikes against any type of leadership program:
Strike one: Term limited(2 years or 4years, thats it, short term not long term view).
Strike Two: Boundaries; city; county; township; state; all of which limit the macro view needed to implement true regionalism ( a la Silicon Valley and the Research Triangle ).

Want proof? Click on Lake Erie West in the right hand column of Toledo Talk, and then click on Lake Erie West just above SEED on the left hand side of the page.

Scroll down to:"Another Story That Should Knock Your Socks Off", and read. This was published in the Toledo Technical Topics, a publication of the University of Toledo and the Engineering Societies of Toledo in 1993. Sadly, it could be published in its entirety today with no changes 14 years later. Had we implemented regionalism back then, Toledo would be gaining population today, and the entire region would be in a growth mode.

But, the only way that it could have been brought about would have been through leadership from the private sector, which can cross political boundaries with ease. ( Examples: ProMedica, Lathrop, JCC/YMCA, and many others.

Again, sadly, while the rest of the world is busy implementing regional economic development, the USA can only boast two players: The Research Triangle and Silicon Valley. And here we sit, with at least 5 sustainable competitive advantages our geography has blessed us with, and we continue with our "Band Aid" approach to economic development, and everything else, because we refuse to even peek at the macro view.

You know this Maggie, most politicians come from legal, accounting, financial, and other backgrounds that teach caution, problem solving, and other cautionary disciplines. The worst thing you can do to them is to ask them to seek out opportunities, and take risks, and look at the long view like marketing people and entrepreneurs do. Its not fair to them, nor is it fair to the citizens of Toledo, who deserve much better.

lew - I don't disagree that we need and should rely upon private leadership for economic development. But my 13 years in politics showed me that the elected officials just can't get out of the way.

In fact, lew, most politicians do not come from backgrounds that teach caution. None of our current commissioners or Toledo city council members have ever run a business (except Betty Shultz who has worked with her husband and his business for years). THAT is the problem. They have no idea what it takes or how to create a business-friendly environment.

But you are correct that they never take a long view - they're too worried about their next election.

As to Toledoans deserving better? Well, I'm of two minds on that. Yes, they do, but they continue to elect the same people and philosophies over and over again, so maybe they don't???

maggie... didnt you get in trouble during your stint with politics? should you be giving wisdom on such things?

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter who is elected. Whoever it is will be hemmed in by the political boundaries of that particular elected office.

So, our only hope is the private sector if we are to enter the global marketplace as a region. Where can we look for leadership?

ProMedica---all five regions fit neatly into what we are calling Lake Erie West.

The JCC/YMCA---Robert Alexander has led the way in showing how to increase membership while reducing costs by thinking and acting regionally.

The Arts Council-Lake Erie West Martin Nagy has duplicated the Common Space Facility on Reynolds Rd. in many locations throughout the Lake Erie West Region.

Eddie Boggs grabbed the Lake Erie West concept and created the Lake Erie West People's Choice Performing Arts Hall of fame located at the Seagate Center.

Good Start !!! But, if we want to compete in the global marketplace with a new identity/global address, we'd damn well better stop looking for different people to elect, because they will be encumbered by those same term limits/political boundaries of their predecessors, and nothing will get done.

Instead,I suggest we Dial up the Research Triangle on the internet; look at their five year strategic plan ( which seeks 100,000 new jobs in those five years) and emulate some of their successes, so that some of those jobs would come our way.

Finally, The Technology Corridor is under construction by the Universities. Let's get behind that effort and expand it to include Biotech Blvd.; connecting the Medical Facilities at the University of Michigan to the Medical University of Toledo. If we combine the Biotech and Medical jobs of both states, we fall into second place behind the Johns Hopkins Corridor, but ahead of the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota.

Let's stop wringing our hands, and do something!!!

It's a sad day for many families in southern Michigan. I live in a suburb of Detroit and we LOVE COSI. For us, it is the first place our children became interested in science ... it is one of their favorite places to go.

We live closer to the Ann Arbor Hands On Museum and to the Detroit Science Museum, but we visit COSI more often and are members there. It is hands down our favorite.

For those of you who think COSI is not about educating children, you are wrong.

For those of you who think COSI does not have an impact on tourism, you are wrong.

We come to Toledo several times a year ONLY for COSI. In addition to our daily visits to COSI, we come down for two weekends out of the year, stay at a hotel in downtown toledo, eat in toledo and shop in toledo. We are not the only ones. I know of at least 8 other families who do the same thing, which doesn't sound like a lot. But those are only 8 families (quickly off the top of my head) that I know personally and that I know for for a fact spend weekends in Toledo due to COSI. I'm sure there are many more.

You may be thinking I'm one lone voice, but there are many, many like me in southern Michigan. We don't stay the weekend for the zoo (and yes, you have a very nice zoo, but we don't come down for zoo weekends). Many of us are planning our last trip down to see COSI before it closes.

Speaking for many sad families in the Metro Detroit Area, we will miss COSI ... and Toledo.

I'm having a hard time believing what you say, neighborinMI. If what you said was true, that kind of info would have been known and promoted by COSI management ahead of the levy. Maybe it was, and I didn't notice it. Does COSI give surveys asking for this kind of info? Has an economic impact study been done on COSI?

And how would you know that? Do you have the data to support your claim, neighborinMI? You may not be a big supporter of the Toledo Zoo, neighborinMI, but the Toledo Zoo has a proven track record of supporting the local economy.

• Over the last ten years, each levy dollar the Zoo received has returned $6.50 in LOCAL economic activity.
• From 1996-2005, The Toledo Zoo had a $664 million economic impact in Lucas County.

That was the zoo promoting itself ahead of a levy.

Here's info about the zoo from 2003 or 2004 :

COSI Toledo has existed since 1997. Obviously, COSI cannot produce data about levy info like the zoo because no levy exists for COSI. But where is the COSI info for the following questions :

• What is COSI's annual impact on the local economy?
• How much money is spent locally each year by people like you neighborinMI who visit COSI from outside COSI's primary market area?
• What has been COSI's economic impact on Lucas County since COSI began in 1997?

It can be argued that the Toledo Zoo is a good investment for the taxpayers of Lucas County because of its return on investment. Can the same be said of COSI? Where's the data for COSI? If COSI wants taxpayer support, then it needs to produce this data.

So neighborinMI, if COSI was moved to West Toledo or South Toledo or Maumee or Sylvania where it would have a better chance of succeeding financially, would you stop going because it was no longer located in downtown Toledo? Since you say you visit this area only for COSI, then I assume it doesn't matter where COSI is located.

A Toledo Blade story from a year ago, Nov 8, 2006 :

What evidence exists that suggests Lucas County taxpayer support would cause COSI attendance to increase?

COSI is a Toledo financial abomination. Let Toledo taxpayers bail it out if taxpayer money is used. Don't require citizens in other Lucas County communities to chip-in when they had no say in COSI's start ten years ago. Toledo's answer to its screwball project is to steal money from other communities.

"... where it would have a better chance of succeeding financially."

I should have said where it may have a better chance. Why a better chance of survival in these other areas? Just guessing, but look at the Westfield Mall and Westgate redevelopments and all the traffic in that area of West Toledo and into Sylvania Township. Maumee's Arrowhead Park is home to some or many businesses that once existed in Toledo. May as well throw in northern Wood County as a possible location for a hands-on science musuem, since it is one of the hottest sprawlville development areas around here right now. Land or lease rates may be too expensive in these areas for a non-profit.

Sure, reusing an existing building in the downtown is a noble gesture, but if the business or org fails, then it fails. Let it go. Or move it to a location where it might have a better chance of surviving. In the past, we've discussed downtown parking here. Some area residents have no problem navigating and parking in downtown Toledo, while others in the area dislike going downtown. So maybe a hands-on science museum with its own surface parking lot would have a better chance of attracting more visitors. It's the sad reality that many area residents prefer strip mall type parking over downtown parking.

I believe a hands-on science museum would succeed if it was located in the Golden Triangle now known as the Crossroads Centre.

But the cost of acquiring land and constructing a building out by I-75 and the turnpike is probably too expensive, unless Bass Pro donated some of their extra land. The new Bass Pro will be attracting visitors from outside our area.

Some of those outside visitors will be families. Some will stay for the weekend in a hotel near the Bass Pro. And some of those families could partake in other activities like a hands-on science museum conveniently located near the Bass Pro. I doubt outsiders will drive to downtown Toledo and park in a garage. They may go to the downtown Toledo COSI if a shuttle service is provided, which I think was an idea of Karen Shanahan. Anyway, a Golden Triangle hands-on science museum is obviously still close enough and convenient enough to serve metro Toledo and Lake Erie West residents as well.

Nov 13, 2007 whiotv.com story :

10 million taxpayer dollars were used to start COSI. It got enough public support, and it failed. It needs to close. This area cannot tolerate that kind of waste nor coddle the imbecilic management team who screwed this up.

If more taxpayer dollars are used to keep COSI open, outsiders will laugh at Toledo and think that a bunch of mental troglodytes live here. How can the continual support of failures like the Erie Street Market and COSI encourage outsiders to invest in Toledo? We're embarrassing ourselves by throwing taxpayer money down the drain. Why would outsiders want to invest in a city lead by buffoons? If Toledo public officials are this stupid, then it's possible they could create moronic legislation in the future that could hurt a business started by an outside investor.

I usually don't bet but I think it will be a close bet between which structure stays up longer: Portside (can't really call it COSI anymore), Northtowne, or Southwyck. Toledo, home of the "dead malls". These will make nice places for the homeless in any case. Once Southwyck empties out perhaps TARTA could start transporting the homeless there (unless Portside stays open for "business").

Either way Toledoans can't let go of these examples of 1970's and 1980's mall architecture. Even though Portside never succeeded as it was there will be those who claim, "Leave it open; some entrepreneur will make it work if only the commissioners will forgive the new business's real estate tax." It's important for the remaining businesses to pay increased real estate taxes so whoever moves into Portside can get "tax forgiveness" so they can succeed in Portside. It will add to the revenue base of the county, LOL.

Jr.: As you know, I have attempted to find out the annual or monthly costs for heating and/or cooling the Portside building. I have not been successful, but I know it is a large number.

Let's look at it positively for a second: if it is as bad as I suspect, then it is impossible for any business to make a go of any type of business in that building.

Therefore, let's not form a lynching party for the managment of COSI. Let's instead chastise them for falling in to the trap of looking a gift horse in the mouth. Portside, as it stands today,is a loser, no matter what kind of business would like to locate there.

So the solution is what? To keep dumping good money into it? Let the building sit empty until some private developer without brains takes an interest in it.

Nov 16, 2007 Thurber's Thoughts blog posting that relays some appalling but not surprising news :

Fine. Then let the Blade fund it themselves 100%. More from Maggie :

Again, if this lamebrain COSI taxpayer-funded school happens, this will make Toledo and Lucas County look like massive morons. Why would a business want to move here or stay here when public officials act like this? Don't these boobs know that their actions matter to the outside world?

Anyone planning to invest in Toledo is smart enough to look past the PR crap from the Mayor's office and look past the symbolic resolutions from Toledo City Council and the Lucas County Commissioners and do his or her own research on whether or not Toledo/Lucas County is worth investment dollars. And I would think researching the political mindset of Lucas County would be one of these areas to research. How much do the politicians disregard the vote of the citizens? How much taxpayer money do the politicians enjoy wasting? How much do the politicians interfere with private business? And why in the hell do the citizens elect the same damn people over and over?