Austerity and Debt Reduction - Republican Style

ILT - "When they are in power, they just cut THEMSELVES bigger and bigger pieces of the pie.Mark my words, just like the Wall Street Fat Cat he is"

While I agree that Repubs are not the answer, last time I checked the Obama admin shoveled money to BOA and half of his economic team is rolling in money from their time at Goldman Sachs.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=n00009638

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-20/politics/obama.goldman.donations_1_obama-campaign-presidential-campaign-federal-election-commission-figures?_s=PM:POLITICS

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/goldman-obama039s-enron-no-it039s-worse-updated

You can be grumpy your party lost all you want, but it's shameful to pretend that the Democrats have not enriched themselves on the backs of the people also.

John Kasich's Motto: "Do as I Say, Not as I DO"

I didn't vote for Kasich, but I respect him for changing his mind about having his swearing-in at home and excluding the media. Hopefully, he understands now that this isn't Lehman Brothers, it it a public position.

ILT, when I think of janitors, teachers and bus drivers, sure as shit I do not think they are "poor". The median household income for the City of Toledo is only $32K or so. Likely since that number's a bit old, it's even less now. And that's the entire household. But $32K is the starting wage of just one TPS teacher, and she only works 9 months out of each year anyway! In addition, I've never heard of a poor bus driver. From TARTA to school systems, they are very well paid.

Janitors? Who knows. But institutional staffs are always well paid compared to what their positions earn in the private sector.

Being well paid is relative but 32K for someone with a Bachelors degree is not that great, even for nine months. Try to support a family on that. I know plenty of teachers and it takes a long long time to get up to above 50K and teaching is a very difficult job. Janitors at UT earn about $10 per hour, have to pay a portion of their health insurance, retirement, etc....try supporting a family on that even if both you and your spouse are working in equivalent positions. It is shameful. What you say is incorrect about being well paid on average. As the study I posted showed, people with degrees are actually paid less in government jobs compared to the private sector. It is a myth that the public sector is overpaid.

Public sector people have taken it on the chin like everyone else with everyone else with layoffs, cut-backs, furloughs, increased cost for benefits...etc. What irks me is that those manufacturing the lies across the country, and I do believe this is something long on the Republican agenda, are the very ones most responsible for our economic collapse and they are the very ones who are making out like bandits as the rest of us continue to struggle. That is business elites and wall street stock brokers like King John. Imagine the hypocrisy of a rich wall street stock broker being outraged by teachers' salaries! The public is clueless about what has really been happening and who is duping them.

And another thing, our new leader is outraged at the political influence of unions. Another great hypocrisy! What about the political influence of large corporations and his Wall St. buddies that outspent those awful unions by 2 to 1 in Ohio and across the nation? Who is going to balance that influence and fight for the middleclass? I am convinced the goal is to entrench the moneyed elites power by weakening everyone else. And they are doing a great job at it pitting the classes under them against each other. If you think this is not the truth, then have no fear, they are winning. We are already plutocratic kleptocracy.

The discussion of public unions seems to encompass much of my conversation time these days.

I was again discussing this topic last night. This instance, with a newspaper writer along with some other long-time friends. However, most of the discussion was between us since he decided to take a shot at me. He was someone I assumed to have a greater understanding than the average citizen. That was a very incorrect assumption.

He has a couple of college degrees, of course, and decades of writing experience. Surprisingly, he has nearly zero knowledge about the methods he supposedly supports.

He was whining on and on about what teachers are paid, Wall Street, "rich" people, so finally I had enough and asked him many questions. Below are several, but not the complete list:

1. Are teachers forced to enter the job field of education?

Answer: After sitting there confused and not wanting to answer, he finally said nobody.

2. What exactly should a new teacher out of college be paid (SALARY AND ALL BENEFITS) per calender year? Answer: he never gave one.

3. What exactly should a day care worker be paid (incl S & B) per calender year? Answer: $8-12 per hour. Bells should be ringing in your head from that reply.

4. Are you willing to pay higher taxes YOURSELF to fund what you think teachers should be paid? Answer: No, let "rich" people pay for it.

5. What annual income and/or net worth defines "rich" according to you? Answer: 100-150k a year. Unsure was given about net worth and I didn't further press for one.

6. If you own a home, what is the total sq ft. including barn, garage, and other attached buildings. Additionally, the total acreage. I asked the acreage, for I already knew he owned a place with a few acres and others in the group were renters.

OF COURSE, his real mental definition of "rich" is everybody with more than himself, but he would never admit that for it would debunk all the other folly he supports.

The conversation later drifted to discussing communism and socialism.

He hinted that communism wasn't "all that bad" of a system.

I immediately stated that under communism, his employer and job would not exist.

Obviously he was and likely still is clueless what communism is, so I wasn't going to further discuss the topic. Since he was already neck-high in poo via his earlier statement, he didn't object.

Of course he then tells me he thinks socialism is great. Most of these self-proclaimed-do-gooders support socialism when they falsely believe someone else is paying the bill. Once they are handed a bill to support the cooperatives, they have a different opinion. Their motto is "palms up me like socialism, palms in own pocket, me don't like socialism."

I asked him his annual salary. What he stated I perceive to be truthful. It was slightly more than 1.5x what the average Toledoan earns. We didn't included benefits, but since he receives plenty from his job, he again supports socialism for his personal situation is net gain.

I stated he earned 1.5x more than the average Toledoan, he immediately (as expected) shouted he "deserved" more since he was a college graduate. I debunked that as nonsense. He will pay his share regardless of how much schooling he obtained.

Thus, when buys a beer next time, he should pay AT LEAST 1.5x the quoted price. Anyone without an income will get all the beer they can drink free of charge or he will contribute to buying it for them. Someone earning half the average Toledo salary will pay half-price.

Ilovetoledo, I think maybe you and this chap attended the same school of folly.

I'll ask more later when I have time, but I must ask you a question.

What exactly do you believe a janitor at UT should be paid per hour including all benefits?

ilovetoledo said: “ Being well paid is relative but 32K for someone with a Bachelors degree is not that great, even for nine months. Try to support a family on that. ”

First of all, NO, being well paid is not "relative". The cost to live a modest life in Toledo has a set price tag. Homes now sell for $50K in Toledo. Oh wait, wait, you'd have to live near Blacks. LOL!

The relativity of the issue is created by racism and other entitlement mentalities. That's why teachers take their $48K median wage, and run out to Maumee and Perrysburg and Oregon and Sylvania and Swanton, to pay $200K for a house. They believe they are merely middle class, when in fact they spend money like they are rich. Therefore it will never be enough.

Second of all, half of Toledo does support a family on that, since that's what "median" means.

You cannot sanely explain away the unwarranted compensation of TPS teachers. You also cannot ignore that we are taxed to provide for that compensation. As their employers, we have every right to restrain that outrageous expense.

6th_Floor said: “ 5. What annual income and/or net worth defines "rich" according to you? Answer: 100-150k a year. Unsure was given about net worth and I didn't further press for one. ”

For income, he was fairly accurate. For 2007 or so, 90% of American incomes were below $109K. About $120K puts you into the top, oh I dunno exactly, 8% of American incomes. For $150k, maybe the top 6%.

If you make more than 90% of your fellows, we can rationally conclude that you are rich. Of course, we must examine your expenses and savings (i.e. wealth base) to reach a more detailed conclusion. After all, $109K doesn't go as far in Manhattan as it does in Toledo.

Those making $109K or more in the Toledo area, however, are very much rich. They can get a home here very easily for only 1x their yearly income. If they don't want to wait by renting cheaply and saving for a house, they can take out a 15-yr mortgage and pay it off easily. That gives them a home they own free and clear for the majority of their lives, giving a big advantage for accumulating life capital. I dunno exactly, as before, but $109K should put you in the top 5% of Toledo incomes.

6th_Floor said: “ OF COURSE, his real mental definition of "rich" is everybody with more than himself, but he would never admit that for it would debunk all the other folly he supports. ”

Great observation. That's a common mental affliction in the United States. The upper middle class is only holding on by teeth-skin, due to supporting the same forces that they used incisively against the rest of the middle class and the lower class. The same forces have evolved into attacking the upper part of the middle class now, and they're not happy. So they live in a fog of delusion and propaganda. They are hypocrites.

That's why to a man, TPS teachers refuse to see themselves as occupying privileged, frankly unsustainable positions. They can't admit they are overpaid, since like all dishonest money-grubbing worms, they would lose what they love most.

And, 6th_Floor, don't be bashful. Tell us the dollar amount he told you. I'll decide from the published stats, what multiplier he's at.

48k not including benefits.

From the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Ohio#Demographics :

The median income for a household in the city was $32,546, and the median income for a family was $41,175. Males had a median income of $35,407 versus $25,023 for females. The per capita income for the city was $17,388.

No matter how you analyze it, he does make quite a bit more than the average or median Toledoan earner or family or household. He's not rich, but he's definitely in the upper part of the middle class around here.

That 48k also does not include what his wife earns.

No kids under 21 either.

I suppose if I head out later this evening and run into this guy again, I'll let him know since he loves socialism he should pay 2.5 or 3x the quoted beer price, instead of 1.5x.

I am disputing the $10 per hour UT custodian statement as utter bullshit.

http://toledobladedata.com/caspio/UT.asp?appSession=17891794444154

More than 240 custodians at UT...laughable.

Ilovetoledo posted: What irks me is that those manufacturing the lies across the country, and I do believe this is something long on the Republican agenda, are the very ones most responsible for our economic collapse and they are the very ones who are making out like bandits as the rest of us continue to struggle. That is business elites and wall street stock brokers like King John. Imagine the hypocrisy of a rich wall street stock broker being outraged by teachers' salaries! The public is clueless about what has really been happening and who is duping them.

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It looks like you are manufacturing your own lies and have your own agenda.

What I do agree with you about is the public is clueless about what has really been happening and who is duping them.

If the average worker knew that janitors at UT were being paid more than they are with benefits, they may look further into the bloated public sector union dilemma.

Apparently the link sometimes directly shows the custodian salaries and sometimes it goes the UT section.

From the UT section, click job title, click custodial worker, not the other custodial categories as they only list a couple each.

The custodial worker job classification lists salaries of 241 employees and they are being paid greater than $10 per hour.

From that database, which has plenty of inaccuracies, there is no mention of actual job responsibilities or any other factors affecting compensation.

As far as the uncertified number of 241, how many buildings does UT own on each campus?

It is a myth that the public sector earns more than the private:
http://campusprogress.org/articles/the_myths_about_public_employee_compensation/