Tankless Water Heater?

I heard that the tankless heaters aren't very good up here in the north. I know my cold water is super cold at the moment. That may have changed.

Ive never heard that before. Do you have any information more solid?

Here's some info on these heaters: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm

"We didn't test electric tankless heaters because many can't deliver hot water fast enough to replace a conventional water heater if ground­water is cold. Even in areas with warm groundwater, most homeowners would need to upgrade their electrical service to power a whole-house tankless model."

What Pete said. :)

I have had a few installed, even in this Great White North. If you buy a quality heater that is sized appropriately, it works as designed. We've only done gas powered units.

FYI you water may not be as hot as you are used to. Building codes dictate a certain temp on water in a residential setting. The controls on a traditional unit can usually greatly exceed this limit, however a tankless unit is very accurate with their heat control. If you like really hot showers it may not be the best for you.

Would I put one in my house? Absolutely.

I would stay away from a tankless electric, but would consider a tankless gas if you met two conditions:

-You plan on living there a long time so it will pay for itself.
-The house is empty for extended periods of time when absolutely zero hot water is needed (this is where you will save on the gas bill).

A buddy who lives by himself and travels a lot replaced an old gas tanked unit with a gas tankless. He is happy with it because it only turns on when he is there, not every 45 minutes like the tanked unit did.

Talk to the guys at Arnold's Home Improvement. They do a water heater that is not tankless, but is solar-powered. It's a solar-electric hybrid that uses a panel on the roof to heat a liquid that warms a coil beneath the tank; electricity moves the liquid up and back. Solar is expensive, but between federal and state breaks, not to mention lower utility bills, you could end up saving in the long run.

^^ Using other peoples money to purchase things for yourself usually does make things more affordable :)

I installed a tankless gas WH'er, super easy to put in and cut my gas bill by almost 20%.

We have electric, no gas here. We dont use a lot of water during the day - as a family of 4 we are not very big water consumers.

"As a family of 4 we are not very big water consumers."

Are there teenagers in the household? Cuz, if they're ain't that statement will not hold water - pun intended - and neither will a tankless keep up with the demand. So sayeth my plumber when we were thinking about installing one.

Holland, yes there are. However we used timed showers (no more then 20 mins) and a low flow water head in our shower.

I dont run the dish washer, or washing machine during the hours we take a shower.

Those of you in the know - would you advise a tankless heater for a home of just two people? We'd need it every morning pre-work shower time, then not all day long, then laundry for 2 during the week...

Timed Showers? haha no thanks.

Oh man. Me neither on the timed shower. When I come in all achy from slinging around flagstone on a patio or pond project my old joints need a good, long, steamy soak. I guess I should thank OK for saving a precious resource for me to use. And use it I do - two ponds that get 30% biweekly water changes, plus a complete landscape irrigation system. In the summer I could use a hose that goes right down to Lake Erie.

I don't think a shower from a hose with lake Erie water would be too good, ha ha.

I hate to contradict your plumbing, but I think they may be mistaken when they say it won't keep up with demand.

It is an on demand system. It will heat as much water as you need. It works by running water through a heat exchanger that heats the water as long as it runs through it. It will heat as long as the faucet is on. A traditional tank system has a limited supply of 40-50 gallons, that once used has no reserve.

It is much more energy efficient, as it doesn't kick on throughout the day to heat a giant tank of water that continually wants to cool. You have to weigh the first capital cost vs. the life of the water heater.

Another thing you can do to help with either type of water heater is to have another 40 gal holding tank in between the incoming water line and your hot water tank.

The kisd get timed showers. There is nothing about sitting around all day at school that requires an intense hour long scrub and soak.

Slowsol is right.

also I have a contractor coming tomorrow to give me a free estimate, Ill let you guys know how it goes.

If you want to get another estimate from a good plumber with reasonable prices, give Grant a call at Grantman Plumbing. (419) 360-1988

Tell him Joe from Total Quality referred you.

Slowsol, will do.

Im having second doubts about this tankless water heater.

I have installed 2 in new construction homes, and I'm living in one of those now, and it was installed in 2004. Not only does the tankless supply the domestic hot water but it also heats the whole house in conjunction with a Lifebreath furnace. I would not hesitate to install one again. FYI the two in question are Bosch natural gas units. I would look strongly at the condensing units by Navion (sp?). And yes, sizing of the unit is paramount in any application regardless of the apparatus. I hope this helps, if you'd like more info, just request a contact and we'll connect. I even installed an electric unit in my first house and it is still in use by the present owners and it was installed in or around 2000, although I'd do that installation a little different than what I did.

20 minute showers???? LUXURY!!! around here it's 5 mins. too much perfectly good water being paid for and flushed right down the drain!! what did we say before about needing cisterns to catch the run off?? a 20 minute shower has AT LEAST 15 minutes worth of water you could drink going down the pipe only to be cleaned up and sent back through your meter for you to pay for again...THAT is not my idea of a good idea. plus, it's 15 more minutes I could be on the net, lol.

I'm not a plumber but i'm pretty good at layin pipe.

It was obvious you weren't a plumber when you recommended a holding tank for a tankless water heater.

slowsol said: “ I hate to contradict your plumbing, but I think they may be mistaken when they say it won't keep up with demand. ”

The facts contradict you, my friend. Any system only delivers so many GPM at a certain temperature. Tankless heaters are fairly low GPM deliverers. The ones commonly sold can only keep up with ONE 1.5gpm showerhead.

Even 50gal tanked systems can't keep up when you have a family filled with kids using the shower and all sinks with the hottest water blasting away. For tankless heaters, if the flow of water goes by too fast, it doesn't get heated up as much. It's physics.

The trouble is that water has a fairly large heat capacity. That's great when you heat water up; there's a large amount of heat therefore locked up in it, and it hangs around a long time. Of course, that becomes very bad when you are exposed to steam, since you get burned badly due to the heat content of what's really a tiny bit of water vapor. But the large heat capacity means that it takes more energy to raise the temperature of a set amount of water, and that takes time. And it's time that you don't have with a tankless system.

The big problem we have now is that essentially all housing is installed with tanked systems, which are often wasteful since they don't match energy delivery to usage. Note also that in every case, these tanks are designed with pathetic amounts of insulation, as if they were designed to waste energy (and they are). The best adaptation was when they started to make these tanks smaller, like the size used in apartments today. But that's as good as it ever got.

You can't even make use of a hybrid system, since that would only bring back the tank, which is the energy-waster in the first place. The fact of the matter is that you can get better efficiency off of a hybrid if you only bothered to schedule your showers and the like. But Americans doing that would feel poor, and so they would refuse. Nations with appropriate energy pricing (i.e. higher pricing) are used to doing things like turning on the water-heater tank about an hour before they take a shower. Since American society is insane and self-destructive, there's no point in making further points about this issue.

No matter what you choose, shower with a friend. It saves water and energy.

I read GZ's post twice. I still don't understand what he's trying to explain. I do give him credit for some how tying in America's dying society into a discussion about water heaters. Good job.

I believe barfly was putting the holding tank in front of the tankless heater. Saves energy, improves performance in winter.

The water in this tank can gradually rise toward room temp before feeding into the tankless unit. Say basement temp is 60-65, cold water supply is 40-45 in winter (mine is 42 today). Water resting in the tank might rise by 10 or more degrees over water supply temps depending on how long it sits. Since this water requires reduced temp rise in the tankless heater, the tankless heater can move more GPM w/ less gas consumed.

I can understand that logic. Most of the time, getting rid of the tank is part of the benefit of a tankless unit though.

Another vote for Grant the plumber. He's well skilled and always prices his services so he gets your call next time you need something done. Grantman Plumbing. (419) 360-1988.

The way I saw tankless used was as a sole hot water supply for a single bathroom, only cold water pipes run to it and it ran to the shower and sink. It was a small unit that was installed in the cabinet under the sink. it was on an outside wall.

So...personal experience.

I dealt with Ben Franklin Plumbing.....personally, I was not happy. I was seeing big numbers tossed around that I know are bs. I felt like I was being taken advantage of for being a woman. Sad thing for them...I did my homework. I was hearing $1,000+ for an electric tankless heater....for the small one. That doesn't include install and regular maintenance.

I've looked around at models online, what is the right sides for our household is roughly $300, not $1,000.

Ill call the recommended numbers you guys posted next.

$300 seems awfully low

That seems very low. I've paid between 1200-1800 three different times. And I'm a builder. A standard tank heater will run between 300 and 500. That's just for the unit.

"It was obvious you weren't a plumber when you recommended a holding tank for a tankless water heater.

! posted by slowsol on Jan 28, 2011 at 06:56:48 pm #

What is even more obvious to anyone who knows anything about plumbing is this: Pay attention and learn something. Whether tank OR tankless, taking 55 to 58 degree water and bringing into a holding tank to warm up to the ambient temperature of where the tank is located, can raise the temp of the water 10 degrees which means that is less work that the tank OR tankless heater has to do. Do you understand now junior?

See posts above your reply. I already said I was misunderstanding you. You are right, it would help. Thanks pops.

Ive looked up many online, the electric tankless water heaters are cheaper then the gas ones (at least from what I have seen).

Online they range from $300 for the small units to around $1000 for the top end models.

Really? Can you post the links? Are you sure you're not looking at point of use tankless water heaters? Not disputing, I just haven't seen any that cheap.

Go to google, do a search for 'electric tankless water heater'

Lots of results in all ranges, almost all under $900.

Most of those are point of use water heaters. Not whole house water heaters. Check out Lowes or Home Depot's website for closer pricing.

Rinnai and Bosche are two brands we've had good luck with.

Also check out Consumers Report. They weigh the advantages and disadvantages. The biggest disadvantages are the wait time to get the water up to temp and the long period before you get a financial payback. Some users report difficulties with the unit keeping up with dishwasher cycles and water temps going from hot to cold and back again in one shower. Those complaints were similar across brands.

Don't these tankless units have a problem with deposit buildup in the tubes if you have hard water--moreso than a regular water heater?

I love the concept of having a tankless, but I worry about the durability of the unit itself going through all those hot/cold/hot/cold/hot/cold/hot/cold cycles.

Slow - amusingly Bosche was the company the guy giving me the quotes directly tried to keep me away him. He cited them as having lots of problems.

the way this is going, I think I will shelve this project. It's a great idea, but at the moment it seems like such a new 'technology' that its pricey and awkward.

Hmm. What did he recommend? I suppose we all have preferences. I'm sure there are people that have had bad experiences with Ferrari's.

Well, it is your decision of course, but if you need hot water I would use a tankless again. If you're too skittish about them, then there are some new tank models that are pretty efficient, and ALL hot water heaters are expensive. $300.00 for a tankless unit, I'd have to see it. It sounds like a point of use model and not one that would deliver up to 8gpm for a whole house. Be wary of electric tankless only in regards to how it is installed. As I stated in my post above, installation of that type of unit would probably require some additional electric work. I had my electric running off of dual 60 amp breakers within the 200 amp service panel and when the hot water was demanded, the lights dimmed in the whole house as it pulled up to 28 amps. I would install a separate 100 amp sub panel for any new electric tankless unit. Look, there is nothing stopping you from going to Famous Supply and talking to the salesperson at the contractor counter if you want to investigate further. Good luck.