Toledo Talk

Another downtown watering hole bites the dust...Easy Street Bar.

I was just told by one of their employees that tonight is their last night.

Someone listening to some of you guys around here would be fooled into believing the downtown Toledo bar scene was part of a thriving metropolis.

There still are a few more downtown watering holes that are circling the bowl.

Easy come, easy go.

Not to worry, the Chinese are here checkbook in hand.

created by 6th_Floor on Jan 30, 2011 at 01:19:37 am     Business     Comments: 2672

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There hasn't been a connection between the city of Toledo and boaters since Sgt. Richard Murphy retired from the police department. :) I belonged to two different yacht clubs when they planned the "marina district" and nobody reached out to any of us.

There is the AYC, which is an affiliation of yacht clubs in the region, but I can't see the AYC getting involved in one locale, because many communities are represented in the AYC.

The marine industry used to be stronger. The marine industry in Toledo used to be stronger. They, along with a heck of a guy named Jim Chamberlin once heavily influenced the building of the boat launch at Walbridge Park in the 60s.

posted by justread on May 04, 2016 at 03:28:59 pm     #  

has anyone ever tried to form some sort of organized effort (perhaps starting with members of the various boating organizations around here) to try to reason with some of the individuals making these poor decisions?

A small group of people rallied around Cullen Park, which has a pretty decent boat launch, which has resulted in improvements and absolutely necessary dredging. The city seems to have made Cullen Park a priority. Good thing too, because ramps are few and far between.
Other than that group, I can't think of anybody.

posted by justread on May 04, 2016 at 03:31:28 pm     #  

My family (and our friends) wasn't rich, but we had a boat and were on the river all the time.

Exactly. There are boats for the people with more to spend, and boats for the regular folks. But transient boaters spend money when they visit.

posted by justread on May 04, 2016 at 03:35:59 pm     #  

Rent the movie Absence of Malice with Sally Fields and Paul Newman where his character Gallagher asks Wilford Brimley after being falsely involved in a murder resulting in the suicide of his protege Teresa; "Who do I see about that?" Bureaucracy metastasizes when the one at the top passes the buck.

posted by Mariner on May 04, 2016 at 03:39:18 pm     #  

justread posted at 03:31:28 PM on May 04, 2016:

has anyone ever tried to form some sort of organized effort (perhaps starting with members of the various boating organizations around here) to try to reason with some of the individuals making these poor decisions?

A small group of people rallied around Cullen Park, which has a pretty decent boat launch, which has resulted in improvements and absolutely necessary dredging. The city seems to have made Cullen Park a priority. Good thing too, because ramps are few and far between.
Other than that group, I can't think of anybody.

The small group of volunteers who spearheaded the Cullen Park transformation should all receive "Outstanding Citizen of the Year Awards" along with our undying gratitude.
Yes, the city (We, the People) paid most of the $$ for the upgrade but the volunteers gave countless hours of their time and labor to turn Cullen Park into a real gem from the crap hole it had become.
Many thanks to those folks. And, just in time for the thousands of birders who we welcome into the Point this time each year.

posted by Foodie on May 04, 2016 at 03:56:59 pm     #   2 people liked this

From 2000-2006 grants were available from Ohio Natural Resources for projects like Cullen. Mary Jane Thurston Park, Rossfor Marina took advantage but Toledo would not for both Cullen and Walbridge marinas using the resources for other designations. Boaters were all rich guys playing with their toys instead of the economic investment they actually bring in from the outside.

posted by Mariner on May 04, 2016 at 04:21:57 pm     #  

Foodie posted at 03:56:59 PM on May 04, 2016:
justread posted at 03:31:28 PM on May 04, 2016:

has anyone ever tried to form some sort of organized effort (perhaps starting with members of the various boating organizations around here) to try to reason with some of the individuals making these poor decisions?

A small group of people rallied around Cullen Park, which has a pretty decent boat launch, which has resulted in improvements and absolutely necessary dredging. The city seems to have made Cullen Park a priority. Good thing too, because ramps are few and far between.
Other than that group, I can't think of anybody.

The small group of volunteers who spearheaded the Cullen Park transformation should all receive "Outstanding Citizen of the Year Awards" along with our undying gratitude.
Yes, the city (We, the People) paid most of the $$ for the upgrade but the volunteers gave countless hours of their time and labor to turn Cullen Park into a real gem from the crap hole it had become.

Many thanks to those folks. And, just in time for the thousands of birders who we welcome into the Point this time each year.

Thank you. My comment didn't convey my gratitude at the depth it was felt.

posted by justread on May 04, 2016 at 04:40:16 pm     #  

Maybe we need a community recreational water use committee, and our own thread.

posted by justread on May 04, 2016 at 04:43:47 pm     #  

Think your right but gotta tell you Sinebad's is too far to go for a drink.

posted by Mariner on May 04, 2016 at 04:51:24 pm     #  

Are any TT boaters heading to tomorrow's PITP at Hensville?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 04, 2016 at 07:16:35 pm     #   2 people liked this

Friday's. With or without a boat, for some it'll feel like 1985 all over again.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 04, 2016 at 07:17:44 pm     #   2 people liked this

I can't believe so little advance notice was given on this.

posted by upso on May 04, 2016 at 07:34:59 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 07:17:44 PM on May 04, 2016:

Friday's. With or without a boat, for some it'll feel like 1985 all over again.

Is Pat Dailey playing? I think that he used to kick-off the Party in the Park season in May.

1985? I could wear my Iron Maiden t-shirt with the sleeves cut-off.

posted by jr on May 04, 2016 at 09:06:13 pm     #  

upso posted at 07:34:59 PM on May 04, 2016:

I can't believe so little advance notice was given on this.

Some mention was made on the Hensville Facebook page.

Upcoming "Party in the Park" shows and other events are listed here:

Either their website has not been updated, or some open dates exist. Maybe the Party in the Park concert idea was a late-developing concept. I assume that organizers are working to complete the schedule.

Friday evening Hensville Party in the Park concert schedule (as of May 4):

  • May 6 : Mountain Heart - Concert only tickets are available for $15.
  • May 13 : Daphne Willis - Concert only tickets are available for $15.
  • May 20 : -
  • May 27 : Chase Bryant - General Admission tickets ($18).
  • June 3 : The Kelley Swindall Band - Concert only tickets are available for $15.
  • June 10 : -
  • June 17 : -
  • June 24 : -
  • July 1 : Phil Dirt & the Dozers - Concert only tickets are available for $15.
  • July 8 : -
  • July 15 : -
  • July 22 : -
  • July 29 : -
  • August 5 : -
  • August 12 : -
  • August 19 : -
  • August 26 : -
  • September 2 : -

posted by jr on May 04, 2016 at 10:11:51 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 07:16:35 PM on May 04, 2016:

Are any TT boaters heading to tomorrow's PITP at Hensville?

No. And there are a statistical minority of us. We should be mocked and ridiculed. We have nothing to offer, and we are unproductive.

posted by justread on May 04, 2016 at 10:20:52 pm     #  

jr posted at 09:06:13 PM on May 04, 2016:
6th_Floor posted at 07:17:44 PM on May 04, 2016:

Friday's. With or without a boat, for some it'll feel like 1985 all over again.

Is Pat Dailey playing? I think that he used to kick-off the Party in the Park season in May.

1985? I could wear my Iron Maiden t-shirt with the sleeves cut-off.

You sure you have the guns for that?

posted by justread on May 04, 2016 at 10:26:35 pm     #  

They should call it simply "Party At The Park", like Packo's At The Park. That fits in with the whole ballpark concept, unless they are specifically trying to highlight the separate yet adjacent Hensville park. A small change could differentiate their venue from the old Party In The Park and possibly avoid riling the purists.

posted by mixman on May 04, 2016 at 10:56:27 pm     #  

justread posted at 10:20:52 PM on May 04, 2016:
6th_Floor posted at 07:16:35 PM on May 04, 2016:

Are any TT boaters heading to tomorrow's PITP at Hensville?

No. And there are a statistical minority of us. We should be mocked and ridiculed. We have nothing to offer, and we are unproductive.

I mean, if you insist.

I MEAN HAVE YOU HEARD THE ONE ABOUT THE BOAT? LET ME SEE IF I GET THIS RIGHT. IT'S A HOLE. IN THE WATER. THAT YOU FILL WITH MONEY.

LOOK AT YOU BOATY MCBOATFACES WITH YOUR BOATS ON THE WATER HAVING ALL THAT FUN YOU GUYS MAKE ME SICK I MEAN HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN TO TURN IF YOU DON'T HAVE LANE MARKINGS

Did I do it right?
:)

posted by endcycle on May 05, 2016 at 08:27:33 am     #  

I don't know if you did it right because I'm still trying to get past BOATY MCBOATFACES.

Classic. I'm still laughing !

posted by foodie88 on May 05, 2016 at 08:32:59 am     #  

I'm in my mid 30's and still fairly up to date when it comes to music. I've never heard of a single artist listed above. I don't listen to country but a quick search tells me these aren't all country. I see Kelley Swindall is also lined up to play the Village Idiot, Homeslice, Swig and Stella's - all likely much less than $15 a show, probably free. Normally I consider myself positive and optimistic but $15 seems steep for an outdoor show of up-and-comers in Toledo.

posted by idinspired on May 05, 2016 at 08:55:35 am     #  

I do not know if I should be happy or sad when I get my new boat delivered next Friday.

posted by Hoops on May 05, 2016 at 08:57:53 am     #  

Be HAPPY Hoops. According to a couple of my nautical friends, the only 2 happy days for boat owners are the day the boat gets delivered and the day it gets sold. (hehe)

posted by jimavolt on May 05, 2016 at 09:00:40 am     #   1 person liked this

Hoops posted at 08:57:53 AM on May 05, 2016:

I do not know if I should be happy or sad when I get my new boat delivered next Friday.

Ecstatic. :)

posted by justread on May 05, 2016 at 09:43:45 am     #  

endcycle posted at 08:27:33 AM on May 05, 2016:
justread posted at 10:20:52 PM on May 04, 2016:
6th_Floor posted at 07:16:35 PM on May 04, 2016:

Are any TT boaters heading to tomorrow's PITP at Hensville?

No. And there are a statistical minority of us. We should be mocked and ridiculed. We have nothing to offer, and we are unproductive.

I mean, if you insist.

I MEAN HAVE YOU HEARD THE ONE ABOUT THE BOAT? LET ME SEE IF I GET THIS RIGHT. IT'S A HOLE. IN THE WATER. THAT YOU FILL WITH MONEY.

LOOK AT YOU BOATY MCBOATFACES WITH YOUR BOATS ON THE WATER HAVING ALL THAT FUN YOU GUYS MAKE ME SICK I MEAN HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN TO TURN IF YOU DON'T HAVE LANE MARKINGS

Did I do it right?
:)

The lane markings are shaped different. Like buoys.

You nailed the Boaty McBoatfaces though.

posted by justread on May 05, 2016 at 11:59:13 am     #  

Hoops posted at 08:57:53 AM on May 05, 2016:

I do not know if I should be happy or sad when I get my new boat delivered next Friday.

Wait.... the 6th?

or the 13th?????

posted by justread on May 05, 2016 at 11:59:51 am     #  

My boyfriend's best friend owns a boat and joked he should have named it after his ex wife because all it constantly needs attention, bitches (makes a lot of noise) and takes all his excess money:)

As someone that likes to travel I was curious about the comments about boating in Canadian water. Are you required to have a passport to boat into Canada? I'm assuming you do but how is it enforced?

posted by classylady on May 05, 2016 at 12:35:48 pm     #  

In my experience it's barely enforced. We boated out to Pelee a couple of years ago... http://www.pelee.org/ I think we were supposed to check in once we arrived but we didn't. Stayed for a few days. No one asked us for passports etc.

posted by upso on May 05, 2016 at 12:47:28 pm     #  

Boat being delivered on Friday the 13th. That should be scary enough. Inland lake in NE Indiana, so I don't need a dock space in downtown Toledo.

posted by Hoops on May 05, 2016 at 12:47:49 pm     #  

Accurate and honest reporting should not state tonight's PITP at Hensville a success...

posted by 6th_Floor on May 06, 2016 at 08:42:54 pm     #  

I'll call the current PITP "crowd" 25-30 people.

Cheers Jim Avolt!

posted by 6th_Floor on May 06, 2016 at 09:10:02 pm     #   1 person liked this

Justread, you could have thrown a larger party tonight at the Marina District docks with a 12-pack of Miller Lite and a bottle rockets.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 06, 2016 at 09:20:57 pm     #  

After the baseball game with an at least half-empty stadium (Im sure theyll report more) ended the hensville party got busier, about 100-200 people are here now but why did we spend $20,000,000 for this?

posted by EconCat88 on May 06, 2016 at 10:48:01 pm     #  

We at dinner around 7:45 tonight and walking past the Stadium the crowd didn't appear to be much better than opening day. Blarney was pretty dead. Maybe the weather was too nice for a ballgame and people were enjoying the nicest Friday of the year so far.

We went out for a walk later tonight and PITP didn't look like it had that many people.

posted by classylady on May 06, 2016 at 11:08:36 pm     #  

I recorded some footage and left. The 100-200 had fallen back to 50-60. I will say they have a nice stage for the bands.

posted by EconCat88 on May 06, 2016 at 11:21:45 pm     #  

classylady posted at 11:08:36 PM on May 06, 2016:

We at dinner around 7:45 tonight and walking past the Stadium the crowd didn't appear to be much better than opening day. Blarney was pretty dead. Maybe the weather was too nice for a ballgame and people were enjoying the nicest Friday of the year so far.

We went out for a walk later tonight and PITP didn't look like it had that many people.

When the weather is cold it's why people don't attend games.

When the weather is rainy it's why people don't attend games.

When the weather is windy it's why people don't attend games.

Weekdays are used as an excuse for why people don't attend games.

When the weather is as close to perfect as it was tonight in Toledo, it's why people don't attend games.

CL, eventually there aren't any excuses other than besides maybe 5 or 6 dates per season, regardless of weather conditions, not a lot of people care much about Mud Hens' games.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 07, 2016 at 12:01:54 am     #   1 person liked this

6th_Floor posted at 09:20:57 PM on May 06, 2016:

Justread, you could have thrown a larger party tonight at the Marina District docks with a 12-pack of Miller Lite and a bottle rockets.

Maybe not. I don't know a soul who has taken their boat to the "Marina District." We view it as a Brenner operation to rent slips to east siders. Not that there is anything wrong with that. The more boating infrastructure the better, and Brenner is well qualified.
Point is that It's not a destination for anyone else.

But I get your point. :)

posted by justread on May 07, 2016 at 06:25:32 am     #  

Cheers back at you 6th!

I was at a golf outing yesterday, so I didn't have to make a conscious decision to avoid the PITP / Hensville event.

I wonder what the actual cash lost was on last night's event . . . not that the Hensville operator cares about such trivial matters.

posted by jimavolt on May 07, 2016 at 07:56:08 am     #   2 people liked this

Jim don't be so negative...there won't be any reported Hensville losses. The 30 purchased $15 tickets more than covered the costs to host the event. $450 is a lot of money...especially in zip code 43604, where poverty exists and infant mortality is very high. It'll be merely renamed an investment in our DT and WHD.

Possibly another committee needs to be formed to discuss these serious matters.

I'm sure regardless how few actually showed up, the propagandists at TB and local TV stations are figuring out ways to report that last night's pathetically attended PITP @ Hensville as a tremendous success!!!

posted by 6th_Floor on May 07, 2016 at 08:55:40 am     #   1 person liked this

"CL, eventually there aren't any excuses other than besides maybe 5 or 6 dates per season, regardless of weather conditions, not a lot of people care much about Mud Hens' games."

ok guy and you have some statistics to back that up other than I walked by a few times and so it must be true? PITP was a failure no doubt about that but the minor league games do not get more crowded until later in the season. Why? Good question I have no idea but I have been going to games for many seasons and April/May are always less crowded than June/July/August. In fact every team in the international league has a lower attendance average right now then they did at the end of last season:

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?y=2016&t=l_att&lid=117&sid=l117

posted by glasscityguy on May 08, 2016 at 10:24:30 am     #   1 person liked this

Why? Good question I have no idea but I have been going to games for many seasons and April/May are always less crowded than June/July/August.

A big part of this is because the games are family friendly events and school is still in session. Anyone with kids who play sports knows that evenings and weekend fill up fast this time of year. Once school is out, it lets up a little.

posted by valbee on May 08, 2016 at 12:08:52 pm     #  

Hey guy...last night looked like 50% or better. Are you happy now?

Weather here usually sucks during April for baseball...we all know this. What I've been seeing is a gradual slide in fans in the stands for the past several years. The weekday games have been suffering from more than a gradual slide the entire season, not only April and May. "Reported attendance" statistics don't mean jack shit because it's obvious those numbers don't remotely represent how many fans in the stands.

There were several weekday April games that had 100-500 fans in the stands.

Because attendance sucks at other venues doesn't bail out why it sucks here. 21 million was wasted on Hensville, along with all the hype we've had to listen to for years regarding how great 5/3rd field is. It seems to me that with Hensville, shouldn't interest and attendance be higher this year? If not, why?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 08, 2016 at 12:19:03 pm     #  

\_(ツ)_/

posted by upso on May 08, 2016 at 02:01:30 pm     #  

:)

posted by 6th_Floor on May 08, 2016 at 04:21:44 pm     #  

""Reported attendance" statistics don't mean jack shit because it's obvious those numbers don't remotely represent how many fans in the stands."

So I am supposed to believe what you have been "Seeing" over reported attendance? Sorry but your random observations don't mean jack shit either.

posted by glasscityguy on May 09, 2016 at 12:09:16 pm     #   9 people liked this

I don't know...
If the "random observation" is an in-person rough head count, and the thing reported by the random observation is an attendance estimate, I think it has some credibility as a rough head count.

posted by justread on May 09, 2016 at 01:51:57 pm     #   3 people liked this

But hey.... \_(ツ)_/

posted by justread on May 09, 2016 at 01:52:31 pm     #  

Glasscityguy you wouldnt question a soul who saw a packed or busy mudhens game or other event downtown but quickly you move to discredit the truth being told about multiple mudhens games with 10 times more empty seats than occupied. Typical behavior from you and those like you who dont want the truth about what they endear being mentioned here or elsewhere.

posted by EconCat88 on May 10, 2016 at 01:27:10 am     #   1 person liked this

upso posted at 02:01:30 PM on May 08, 2016:

\_(ツ)_/

And suddenly it hit me. This is the evolution of the smiley face of my childhood. He was so simple then. Just a set of eyes and a smile. :)

But the world is harder now. And more confusing. Our innocent happiness has become cautious optimism at best, and our smile has become a smirk, or worse, a fake half attempt.
And also we are being mugged, which is why our hands are up. Out of frame is another stick figure, going through our pockets.

"Hey, when are they going to stop mugging us?"

"I don't know, but the rain may let up."

posted by justread on May 10, 2016 at 06:28:55 am     #   2 people liked this

EconCat88 posted at 01:27:10 AM on May 10, 2016:

Glasscityguy you wouldnt question a soul who saw a packed or busy mudhens game or other event downtown but quickly you move to discredit the truth being told about multiple mudhens games with 10 times more empty seats than occupied. Typical behavior from you and those like you who dont want the truth about what they endear being mentioned here or elsewhere.

I Have been to many games in April/May in a very empty stadium I have no doubt about that at all I am not disputing that....I have also been to many games later in the year that are in a full stadium....

I was responding to his original statement:

"CL, eventually there aren't any excuses other than besides maybe 5 or 6 dates per season, regardless of weather conditions, not a lot of people care much about Mud Hens' games."

My point is that attendance at Minor League baseball stadiums early in the year is very typical and the numbers that they report back that up. I never disputed that the stadium is empty early in the year....

posted by glasscityguy on May 10, 2016 at 10:47:59 am     #  

"Weather here usually sucks during April for baseball...we all know this. What I've been seeing is a gradual slide in fans in the stands for the past several years. The weekday games have been suffering from more than a gradual slide the entire season, not only April and May. "Reported attendance" statistics don't mean jack shit because it's obvious those numbers don't remotely represent how many fans in the stands."

My second point was that the reported statistics don't agree that there has been a gradual slide in fans. I could say that I have gone to quite a few games, over the past 5 years and my observations would not agree with that but would you believe me.? Why should you as you admit I have a bias. When then would I believe your observation when you very clearly have a bias as well. I never disagreed that there are many empty games.... I am disputing the "gradual slide" statement.

posted by glasscityguy on May 10, 2016 at 10:55:51 am     #  

Attendance in April and May suck. And its probably worse today than it was yesterday. Weekday games over the summer probably have seen gradually lower attendances. I concede....maybe Mud Hens games arent as popular as people think. So....what do you think should happen? Im failing to see the point. What are you hoping to achieve?

posted by BulldogBuckeye on May 10, 2016 at 02:55:49 pm     #  

"What are you hoping to achieve?"

Well, he's trying to point out that downtown toledo has already died. It's dead. Nothing can survive there. Certainly not a stadium. Or the best restaurant in the city. Or the best pizza place. Or the best coffeeshop. Or all the bars. Or the shitty pizza place. Or the multiple-named-strip clubs. or the housing. or the hockey. or the owens corning. or the promedica. or the hickory farms. or the dozens of other thriving businesses.

They're all dead.

THEY JUST DON'T KNOW IT YET.

so dead.

posted by endcycle on May 10, 2016 at 03:34:32 pm     #   7 people liked this

I am not sure that is a fair assessment of the goal in regard to sharing alternate data regarding Mud Hens attendance.

(Although I think it is a reasonable reflection on the regularly scheduled death watch that constitutes the narrative of the larger thread.)

posted by justread on May 10, 2016 at 03:53:54 pm     #  

Yeah, I was being hyperbolic and having fun with the original narrative of the thread. :)

Sorry about that. Let's get back to the accounting stuff. Anyone wanna get out the books and start auditing the pretzel and soda sales at the stadium for me please?

posted by endcycle on May 11, 2016 at 08:44:59 am     #   2 people liked this

\_(ツ)_/

posted by justread on May 11, 2016 at 02:19:25 pm     #  

The concessions staff probably has been reduced to a skeleton crew with the low turnout at games. Its all a huge waste of money and hensville wont make much difference.

posted by EconCat88 on May 11, 2016 at 05:37:36 pm     #  

EconCat88 posted at 05:37:36 PM on May 11, 2016:

The concessions staff probably has been reduced to a skeleton crew with the low turnout at games. Its all a huge waste of money and hensville wont make much difference.

There we go. That's what I'm talking about!

posted by endcycle on May 12, 2016 at 09:26:01 am     #   3 people liked this

Weather was a perfect May day last night. Boyfriend was in the mood for sushi so we went to Kengo and there was a wait. I am not a big fan of sushi and wasn't disappointed when he suggested we eat someplace else.

I wanted pizza and he didn't want to wait a long time for our food and home slice was pretty busy and we were told about a 45 minute wait on the food and we knew Pizza Papalis takes a long time to bake their pizza and went to Durty Bird. Place was pretty dead (there were almost as many employees as patrons and I don't understand why they pay someone to just stand around doing nothing at the hostess stand when nothing is going on and they don't need a hostess on those nights) but food was good and came out fast.

We were in the mood for a drink and he wanted a beer and hates Durty Bird's high drink prices so we walked past the Hensville bars and Frickers which looked packed and ended up at Blarney. There was only one other couple in the bar and it was a game night and normally the place is packed then but the patio looked busy. Pizza Papalis appeared to be pretty crowded.

It's strange downtown how some bars can be packed and other empty on a certain night.

posted by classylady on May 12, 2016 at 10:26:34 am     #  

Weather was a perfect May day last night.

And despite the perfect weather, the baseball game was played in front of how many, maybe 400 fans including the 25-30 watching from the Hensville rooftops?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 12, 2016 at 10:32:19 am     #  

Weather: 67 degrees, clear.
Wind: 6 mph, In from CF.
First pitch: 6:34 PM.
T: 2:31.
Att: 4,581.
Venue: Fifth Third Field.
May 11, 2016

*includes 4,181 ghosts.

http://www.toledoblade.com/gallery/IN-PICTURES-Mud-Hens-7-Louisville-5

LOL at 4,581 even the lower rows between the bases are empty.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 12, 2016 at 10:39:57 am     #  

justread posted at 03:53:54 PM on May 10, 2016:

I am not sure that is a fair assessment of the goal in regard to sharing alternate data regarding Mud Hens attendance.

(Although I think it is a reasonable reflection on the regularly scheduled death watch that constitutes the narrative of the larger thread.)

Ironically, this thread just won't die and the constant struggle between optimism and pessimism, with absolutely no one with any skin in the game.

As my father always told me-"it's bad form to count other people's money" I presume that extends to their business-another bit of irony-he was a CPA.

posted by ahmahler on May 12, 2016 at 10:40:01 am     #   1 person liked this

http://www.toledoblade.com/gallery/IN-PICTURES-Louisville-at-Toledo-doubleheader

Photo 16 of 19 shows behind homeplate in the 3RD INNING yet behind homeplate only had a few fans.

Notwithstanding endcycle and glasscityguy disagreeing, this Mud Hens attendance issue is beyond a gradual slide...it's a collapse.

100 or less is probably closer to the truth than 3,695.

Weather: 55 degrees, cloudy.
Wind: 6 mph, In from RF.
First pitch: 7:50 PM.
T: 2:04.
Att: 3,695.
Venue: Fifth Third Field.
May 9, 2016

posted by 6th_Floor on May 12, 2016 at 10:46:30 am     #  

Ahmahler, the Mud Hens is/was our money...and that's why the amount of money being spent/wasted is worthy of discussion.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 12, 2016 at 10:49:48 am     #   3 people liked this

So we are gonna get a play by play of the mud hens attendance this year.... SWEET.

posted by Xbuckeyex on May 12, 2016 at 10:57:23 am     #   5 people liked this

"Ironically, this thread just won't die and the constant struggle between optimism and pessimism, with absolutely no one with any skin in the game." - ahmahler

I think that last part is pretty debatable.

posted by Johio83 on May 12, 2016 at 10:58:07 am     #  

As my father always told me-"it's bad form to count other people's money"

Where does he fall on counting their heads?

posted by justread on May 12, 2016 at 11:05:13 am     #   4 people liked this

I was being hyperbolic

Thank you for not being sigmoidal.

posted by justread on May 12, 2016 at 11:16:22 am     #  

Wait a second - 6th_floor - are you alleging that the mud hens are lying about ticket sales? That's a pretty serious thing to accuse them of, especially when that's easily tracked by regular audits.

posted by endcycle on May 12, 2016 at 11:19:05 am     #  

Could be questioning the methodology and whether it tracks sales or actual attendance.

Who does the regular attendance audits that cross-check claimed attendance with actual attendance?

posted by justread on May 12, 2016 at 11:46:38 am     #  

I am kinda lost in this conversation - but I go to maybe 6 + games a year. Mostly business - either myself or Mrs. Molsonator's. Every time we are there it crowded as hell. Concession is booming. I don't buy that they are not doing well. They produce a quality family friendly product that is great for Toledo. Spring time is hard for families with graduations, wrap up of spring sports, cold weather, etc. After Memorial Day attendance goes up (I would assume).

posted by Molsonator on May 12, 2016 at 12:00:33 pm     #   1 person liked this

Johio83 posted at 10:58:07 AM on May 12, 2016:

"Ironically, this thread just won't die and the constant struggle between optimism and pessimism, with absolutely no one with any skin in the game." - ahmahler

I think that last part is pretty debatable.

fair point.

posted by ahmahler on May 12, 2016 at 12:01:32 pm     #  

Its half full or better so a good crowd at todays morning game for the schools older fans and shift workers. Molsonator look at the blade photos and then tell us again that most games are packed.

posted by EconCat88 on May 12, 2016 at 12:13:37 pm     #  

What do you want for attendance and why are you complaining? I don't get it. They are making boatloads of money. You would agree with that yes econ?

posted by Molsonator on May 12, 2016 at 12:42:41 pm     #  

Also - You must not have read my post. I said the games I go to are full and after Memorial Day it picks up. Just like the MLB. You come back with a 10am game before Memorial day to prove your point. Huh?

posted by Molsonator on May 12, 2016 at 12:52:30 pm     #  

Forbes: But, when you read the boxscore or hear that a game is sold out, think again. Remember its all about the money these days, and what the public sees as attendance figure and the actual number of butts in the seats are assuredly two different things. Dont ever confuse the two.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/05/25/how-sports-attendance-figures-speak-lies/4/#6bf4dd46711a

posted by justread on May 12, 2016 at 01:14:38 pm     #   1 person liked this

So we are to now accept that the first 40% of the seasons games should be ignored? You guys will say the same things In august when kids return to school and hot humid weather so the number will be 60-70%. Molsonator you seem to be the one complaining here. Attendance has sucked. Take a look for yourself at the photos or go to a weeknight game soon. What im saying is there have been too many empty seats In april and Into may relative to the costs to build the field and especially hensville. The reported ticket sales and attendance arent in the same hemisphere as the filled seats but youre telling us concessions are booming??? There still will be plenty of empty seats after memorial day for the majority of hens games

posted by EconCat88 on May 12, 2016 at 01:18:20 pm     #  

All I am asking is you quote attendance numbers, profit margins, etc. Use facts. The "cost to build the field"? Hmmm. You mean they haven't been able to pay it off? You just seem to be throwing crap out there without referencing anything.

posted by Molsonator on May 12, 2016 at 01:25:40 pm     #   1 person liked this

Here. I will help http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?y=2015&t=l_att&lid=117&sid=l117

Now its your turn. You brought it up. What is the break even for attendance for a game?

posted by Molsonator on May 12, 2016 at 01:28:26 pm     #  

Read the forbes article from justread and think more about the embarrassment theyre hoping to avoid from people understanding their lies. Do you expect them to report bad news and a couple hundred fans watching hens games after spending all the money they have building hensville? I think the time has arrived for a few videos of the actual attendance at hens games.

posted by EconCat88 on May 12, 2016 at 01:42:38 pm     #  

interesting-thanks Molsonator-

Talk about consistent. since 2006, attendance per game has averaged within 750 tickets, high to low. It's been pretty static for about the last 4 years. Relative to the league, the same. We were 7th in attendance for a good stretch, we're currently 8th, in avg attendance.

posted by ahmahler on May 12, 2016 at 01:45:10 pm     #  

I went to see Captain America Civil War on a Wednesday afternoon in mid-May and the place was nearly empty. That movie must be bombing.

**I give exactly zero craps as to what attendance at a baseball game is and have no idea if my analogy applies, but I still like it : )

posted by JoeyGee on May 12, 2016 at 01:46:50 pm     #   7 people liked this

I'm sorry Econ, what was the break even?

posted by Molsonator on May 12, 2016 at 01:54:35 pm     #  

I will give you one more. Maybe this will be easier. When will the Mud Hens have the stadium paid off? Are they behind schedule or ahead?

posted by Molsonator on May 12, 2016 at 01:57:26 pm     #  

JoeyGee posted at 01:46:50 PM on May 12, 2016:

I went to see Captain America Civil War on a Wednesday afternoon in mid-May and the place was nearly empty. That movie must be bombing.

**I give exactly zero craps as to what attendance at a baseball game is and have no idea if my analogy applies, but I still like it : )

perfect analogy.

posted by ahmahler on May 12, 2016 at 01:58:49 pm     #   1 person liked this

JoeyGee posted at 01:46:50 PM on May 12, 2016:

I went to see Captain America Civil War on a Wednesday afternoon in mid-May and the place was nearly empty. That movie must be bombing.

**I give exactly zero craps as to what attendance at a baseball game is and have no idea if my analogy applies, but I still like it : )

We were all golfing.

posted by justread on May 12, 2016 at 02:58:12 pm     #   2 people liked this

Molsonator posted at 01:57:26 PM on May 12, 2016:

I will give you one more. Maybe this will be easier. When will the Mud Hens have the stadium paid off? Are they behind schedule or ahead?

BUT FACTS ARE HARD MOLSONATOR I PREFER JUST MAKING SHIT UP AND CITING MY HARD-EARNED OPINION AS EVIDENCE THAT THE NEFARIOUS MUDHENS ARE DOING NEFARIOUS THINGS TO THE CITY AND IT WILL SOON OPEN UP INTO A DIRECT GATEWAY TO HELL BECAUSE DOWNTOWN IS THE LITERAL DEATH TRAP FOR BUSINESSES OF ALL SORTS

posted by endcycle on May 13, 2016 at 08:09:56 am     #   6 people liked this

Endcycle you should include a disclaimer so lurkers and new TT members know your work is somehow related to downtown and/or development. Nothing else better explains your childish attacks toward any criticism of DT.

Ahmahler doesn't think anybody here has any skin in the game. He's wrong...plenty like you Endcycle have a bread-winning job to defend. The continued fleecing of the Toledo taxpayers is necessary to fund this garbage aka Hensville while much of the city falls apart.

Criticism from the DT fleece squad isn't new here and I expect it to continue...just as this thread will continue documenting it.

EC, go to lunch today at another money-losing restaurant and tell us about another amazing sandwich or sub.

While you're at it, go to PITP tonight and tell us how amazing the draft beer and band were and that the place was jam-packed with 50 people.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2016 at 08:39:06 am     #   3 people liked this

I think the time has arrived for a few videos of the actual attendance at hens games.

@EconCat88
No more videos. Your videos are a waste of time.

posted by mixman on May 13, 2016 at 08:57:29 am     #   6 people liked this

"while much of the city falls apart."

Here's why I support downtown's revival.

Toledo has lost jobs and population for almost half a century now. We peaked in 1970, and have been losing taxpayers across the city lines ever since. Arrowhead Park is a perfect example: it boomed in the 80's and 90's, almost exclusively at Toledo's expense.

We are in a new era, now. Dense urban areas are where large employers want to be, because it's where talented young professionals want to be. It's the reason ProMedica chose to relocate to downtown. It stands the best chance within Toledo of attracting other large employers.

I see the focus on downtown as an investment in Toledo's long term success. Do we need potholes filled? Of course. But we have a pretty limited amount of money to work with in this city, due to the shrinking tax base. Fixing the pothole will help it this year, but there will be new ones to fix next year, and the year after. We need to increase the amount of money we're working with for these maintenance issues. Focusing on building up downtown, making it more attractive to employers as well as residents, will boost the tax base, and therefore increase the amount of money we'll have to pay for those pothole repairs next year, and even more for the year after, and so on.

posted by Johio83 on May 13, 2016 at 09:09:51 am     #   6 people liked this

Speaking of boosting the tax base...Table Forty 4 has returned to not paying anything for more than a year.

Their owed property tax grand total is well above 30k.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2016 at 09:30:15 am     #   1 person liked this

Yeah, they were on a payment plan for a while, but it appears even that has fallen off. I'm not sure what the issue is, because we have never had a payment issue with them over the years. Not sure if they were just putting the city at the bottom of their priority list, or what. Hopefully just an error that needs correcting, but who knows.

posted by Johio83 on May 13, 2016 at 09:34:15 am     #  

6th_Floor posted at 08:39:06 AM on May 13, 2016:

Endcycle you should include a disclaimer so lurkers and new TT members know your work is somehow related to downtown and/or development. Nothing else better explains your childish attacks toward any criticism of DT.

Ahmahler doesn't think anybody here has any skin in the game. He's wrong...plenty like you Endcycle have a bread-winning job to defend. The continued fleecing of the Toledo taxpayers is necessary to fund this garbage aka Hensville while much of the city falls apart.

Criticism from the DT fleece squad isn't new here and I expect it to continue...just as this thread will continue documenting it.

EC, go to lunch today at another money-losing restaurant and tell us about another amazing sandwich or sub.

While you're at it, go to PITP tonight and tell us how amazing the draft beer and band were and that the place was jam-packed with 50 people.

okay, I can put in a disclaimer if you need, but... I thought I was just over the top enough that anyone can get it.

Wanna join me for lunch today? I did pack, but I'd be happy to meet you - wanna pick a spot? No? It's cool. It's a beautiful day out there. Might walk over to Grumpy's. Let me know.

I would totally go to party in the park tonight, but my wife is travelling and I'm on solo kid duty. A couple of coworkers were talking about going either this week or next, so I'll check in with them about if they had fun with the other 48 people or not.

posted by endcycle on May 13, 2016 at 09:44:17 am     #   3 people liked this

6th-I'm certain this has been said before, but the fervor with which you seemingly root against anything downtown and/or continually try to build your case (this 2000+ post thread in itself is a shining monument to this notion) can be very frustrating. If this was just a splash of much needed cold water, that would be one thing, but it's pretty unscientific. You lob anecdote after anecdote, which don't build a case against the reality of the growth (or lack thereof) of business. This is akin to the snowball in congress refuting climate change, perhaps not quite as egregious.

Downtown has changed. Will it be the next _____________? No, it will be Toledo. But the way things are going, it will be a better version than it has been for a generation or more, along with failed businesses and frustrating government moves.

I get that you're done with the government and with the favoritism, cronyism, incompetence etc. All are VERY valid criticism about the problems with this area, and also about many municipalities.

Unfortunately, the line can become blurred, and there is an energy and dynamic movement in Downtown, that has been building for a decade or more and is unlike anything I've seen in my lifetime. I, myself, have railed against some of the favoritism, and the questionable nature of the Hensville project. Ultimately, the business owners in the downtown area, are largely in favor of most of these projects. We are going through some major growing pains. The Mud Hens, while partially funded by tax dollars, receives the most credit for energizing downtown. If not for them, much of the change may not have happened. Why does it matter? Here's why-

I was having lunch at Selden Standard last week in Detroit. A city and a restaurant that has been written about breathlessly by every cool and important publication in the country. Their chef/ partner is a St Francis grad. I was speaking with his partner and when we discussed personal life in a chat, he proclaimed that he's heard that Toledo is really coming around and has some very cool thing happening. He mentioned a handful of things in the area-all of which were downtown. Now-It really takes something major for someone from Michigan to acknowledge anything special about Ohio, but here's one of the hottest restaurants in the country talking about the possibility that Toledo might actually be cool. Do I really care if people think Toledo is cool? Yes. Not out of pride, but by knowing that this piece of PR/ word of mouth is the sort of thing that helps a city get back on it's feet. It's the one flower on earth in Wall-E. It's that one stupid single sign of life that might mean something. This happened because of Downtown. And Downtown happened because of the Mud Hens, and all of the businesses that followed (including & especially OC). This is our best asset. This is what will make people want to stay or even move here. Johio83 is right (as per usual). We need downtown to be great beacuse it's the thing that unites this entire city, thread and forum.

So-when you rail against downtown, I'm not sure what the endgame is, but the whole damn thing is moving forward whether or not Table Forty4 pays their taxes or not.

posted by ahmahler on May 13, 2016 at 10:34:34 am     #   17 people liked this

I made the post about 44 because I got a phone call this morning from a friend who works in government about that subject. It carried over to this thread. 44 or any other business should not be permitted to have that type of competitive advantage.

Capital moves where it's treated best. Period.

People will move where the jobs and paychecks are...not where the latest wine sampling can be had, or a minor league baseball game can be viewed.

I do believe the attendance figures at 5/3rd field aren't reflective of fans in the seats. Hensville never should have been built and many of your friends in the restaurant/bar industry will agree soon enough if they already don't.

This whole thing you keep repeating about DT having to be great for the entire city to survive is ridiculous.

Disclosure was mentioned a few posts ago, so here is another request...this time for yourself.

Unless you've moved, I recall you mentioning that you live in Holland. So you demand that we all fall into line with your beliefs about DT being great, yet you made the decision to live outside the city altogether.

Put your money and your couch where your mouth is Ahmahler.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2016 at 01:35:18 pm     #   5 people liked this

Unless you've moved, I recall you mentioning that you live in Holland. So you demand that we all fall into line with your beliefs about DT being great, yet you made the decision to live outside the city altogether.

Put your money and your couch where your mouth is Ahmahler.

Springfield Township. We moved here because of the schools 12 years ago. I've mentioned before that this was a regrettable location decision made from afar. If we could move and come near to breaking even from what we paid AND we could get our kids into TSA (Tried, haven't), we would. We will be down there soon enough, hopefully by the time our oldest graduates (2020). In the meantime, i just spend my entertainment dollars, offer my energies and expertise as I can (even though wine tastings won't alone save downtown). You may not realize this-You don't have to LIVE downtown to enjoy it and promote it, again, it's all of ours.

posted by ahmahler on May 13, 2016 at 01:56:14 pm     #   5 people liked this

"People will move where the jobs and paychecks are...not where the latest wine sampling can be had, or a minor league baseball game can be viewed."

Yes, I agree 100% with this statement.

Well, 90%. I think that people are willing to live away from where they work if the amenities make it worthwhile. THAT SAID -

This is why every housing development project in downtown toledo is saturated right now and developers are scrambling to get things moving in order to capitalize on the jobs moving downtown @ promedica.

posted by endcycle on May 13, 2016 at 02:22:49 pm     #   2 people liked this

I was told by Dave Balls father, the security guard at the Ohio Building, that Plate 21 has a signed lease with a projected opening date of July 1 in the old Biggby space. Hopefully it won't be like Maddie & Bella's and will open up in the fall of 2017 and really will open July 1 or close to it.

posted by classylady on May 27, 2016 at 12:36:59 am     #  

Ahmahler, I find it humorous that you mentioned I've been lobbing anecdotes throughout this 2,000+ post thread, yet your entire post/rant above is filled with your own anecdotes. You've mentioned before that you wish this thread would die...get over it.

Carry-on...from the suburbs, until "Hopefully and soon enough around 2020 you return to Toledo." Of course, where you live is your choice, and thank you for your honesty because frankly many self-proclaimed "Toledo loyalists" fail to disclose they live elsewhere.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 27, 2016 at 07:06:57 am     #  

classylady posted at 12:36:59 AM on May 27, 2016:

I was told by Dave Balls father, the security guard at the Ohio Building, that Plate 21 has a signed lease with a projected opening date of July 1 in the old Biggby space. Hopefully it won't be like Maddie & Bella's and will open up in the fall of 2017 and really will open July 1 or close to it.

M+B soft open is scheduled for June 6 as of a few days ago - I heard they were waiting on the results from a final inspection before setting that date, so that sounds firm-ish.

Well, as firm as anything can be in that business anyway.

posted by endcycle on May 27, 2016 at 03:56:19 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 07:06:57 AM on May 27, 2016:

Ahmahler, I find it humorous that you mentioned I've been lobbing anecdotes throughout this 2,000+ post thread, yet your entire post/rant above is filled with your own anecdotes. You've mentioned before that you wish this thread would die...get over it.

Carry-on...from the suburbs, until "Hopefully and soon enough around 2020 you return to Toledo." Of course, where you live is your choice, and thank you for your honesty because frankly many self-proclaimed "Toledo loyalists" fail to disclose they live elsewhere.

I will say this - AHMahler does more to promote Toledo and support Toledo businesses than just about anyone I've ever met. He is a fierce cheerleader and has worked hard to help restaurants succeed despite themselves. He also has organized some incredible events, brought amazing winemakers here when they could have skipped the city altogether, and has been pushing hard to make a difference. He believes in this town.

So yeah, I hope he does carry on - from the suburbs, from the OWE, or from wherever. He's a part of the reason this city has become more interesting every year.

Yeah, I know he's my brother- and I've got his back - but everything I've said above is something I would say even if he wasn't my brother. In fact, I'm probably tempering my words a bit because of that. I'm not used to saying nice things about him.

signed -

The younger one.

posted by endcycle on May 27, 2016 at 04:02:55 pm     #   10 people liked this

I need to make a point to go ask Dave Ball's dad some stuff.

posted by justread on May 28, 2016 at 05:44:12 am     #   2 people liked this

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