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9 things the rich don't want you to know about taxes

i'm no lib, but i think these are pretty damn damning

For three decades we have conducted a massive economic experiment, testing a theory known as supply-side economics. The theory goes like this: Lower tax rates will encourage more investment, which in turn will mean more jobs and greater prosperity—so much so that tax revenues will go up, despite lower rates. The late Milton Friedman, the libertarian economist who wanted to shut down public parks because he considered them socialism, promoted this strategy. Ronald Reagan embraced Friedman’s ideas and made them into policy when he was elected president in 1980.

For the past decade, we have doubled down on this theory of supply-side economics with the tax cuts sponsored by President George W. Bush in 2001 and 2003, which President Obama has agreed to continue for two years.

You would think that whether this grand experiment worked would be settled after three decades. You would think the practitioners of the dismal science of economics would look at their demand curves and the data on incomes and taxes and pronounce a verdict, the way Galileo and Copernicus did when they showed that geocentrism was a fantasy because Earth revolves around the sun (known as heliocentrism). But economics is not like that. It is not like physics with its laws and arithmetic with its absolute values.

Tax policy is something the framers left to politics. And in politics, the facts often matter less than who has the biggest bullhorn.

The Mad Men who once ran campaigns featuring doctors extolling the health benefits of smoking are now busy marketing the dogma that tax cuts mean broad prosperity, no matter what the facts show.

As millions of Americans prepare to file their annual taxes, they do so in an environment of media-perpetuated tax myths. Here are a few points about taxes and the economy that you may not know, to consider as you prepare to file your taxes. (All figures are inflation-adjusted.)

Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: AUTHOR ANALYSIS OF SAEZ & PIKETTY TABLE A6; 2008 DOLLARS

1. Poor Americans do pay taxes.

Gretchen Carlson, the Fox News host, said last year “47 percent of Americans don’t pay any taxes.” John McCain and Sarah Palin both said similar things during the 2008 campaign about the bottom half of Americans.

Ari Fleischer, the former Bush White House spokesman, once said “50 percent of the country gets benefits without paying for them.”

Actually, they pay lots of taxes—just not lots of federal income taxes.

Data from the Tax Foundation show that in 2008, the average income for the bottom half of taxpayers was $15,300.

This year the first $9,350 of income is exempt from taxes for singles and $18,700 for married couples, just slightly more than in 2008. That means millions of the poor do not make enough to owe income taxes.

But they still pay plenty of other taxes, including federal payroll taxes. Between gas taxes, sales taxes, utility taxes and other taxes, no one lives tax-free in America.

When it comes to state and local taxes, the poor bear a heavier burden than the rich in every state except Vermont, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy calculated from official data. In Alabama, for example, the burden on the poor is more than twice that of the top 1 percent. The one-fifth of Alabama families making less than $13,000 pay almost 11 percent of their income in state and local taxes, compared with less than 4 percent for those who make $229,000 or more.

Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: MEDICARE TAX DATABASE; CENSUS

2. The wealthiest Americans don’t carry the burden.

This is one of those oft-used canards. Sen. Rand Paul, the tea party favorite from Kentucky, told David Letterman recently that “the wealthy do pay most of the taxes in this country.”

The Internet is awash with statements that the top 1 percent pays, depending on the year, 38 percent or more than 40 percent of taxes.

It’s true that the top 1 percent of wage earners paid 38 percent of the federal income taxes in 2008 (the most recent year for which data is available). But people forget that the income tax is less than half of federal taxes and only one-fifth of taxes at all levels of government.

Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes (known as payroll taxes) are paid mostly by the bottom 90 percent of wage earners. That’s because, once you reach $106,800 of income, you pay no more for Social Security, though the much smaller Medicare tax applies to all wages. Warren Buffett pays the exact same amount of Social Security taxes as someone who earns $106,800.

Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: SOCIAL SECURITY MEDICARE TAX DATABASE

3. In fact, the wealthy are paying less taxes.

The Internal Revenue Service issues an annual report on the 400 highest income-tax payers. In 1961, there were 398 taxpayers who made $1 million or more, so I compared their income tax burdens from that year to 2007.

Despite skyrocketing incomes, the federal tax burden on the richest 400 has been slashed, thanks to a variety of loopholes, allowable deductions and other tools. The actual share of their income paid in taxes, according to the IRS, is 16.6 percent. Adding payroll taxes barely nudges that number.

Compare that to the vast majority of Americans, whose share of their income going to federal taxes increased from 13.1 percent in 1961 to 22.5 percent in 2007.

(By the way, during seven of the eight George W. Bush years, the IRS report on the top 400 taxpayers was labeled a state secret, a policy that the Obama administration overturned almost instantly after his inauguration.)

Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: AUTHOR CALCULATIONS FROM IRS

4. Many of the very richest pay no current income taxes at all.

John Paulson, the most successful hedge-fund manager of all, bet against the mortgage market one year and then bet with Glenn Beck in the gold market the next. Paulson made himself $9 billion in fees in just two years. His current tax bill on that $9 billion? Zero.

Congress lets hedge-fund managers earn all they can now and pay their taxes years from now.

In 2007, Congress debated whether hedge-fund managers should pay the top tax rate that applies to wages, bonuses and other compensation for their labors, which is 35 percent. That tax rate starts at about $300,000 of taxable income—not even pocket change to Paulson, but almost 12 years of gross pay to the median-wage worker.

The Republicans and a key Democrat, Sen.

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Charles Schumer of New York, fought to keep the tax rate on hedge-fund managers at 15 percent, arguing that the profits from hedge funds should be considered capital gains, not ordinary income, which got a lot of attention in the news.

What the news media missed is that hedge-fund managers don’t even pay 15 percent. At least, not currently. So long as they leave their money, known as “carried interest,” in the hedge fund, their taxes are deferred. They only pay taxes when they cash out, which could be decades from now for younger managers. How do these hedge-fund managers get money in the meantime? By borrowing against the carried interest, often at absurdly low rates—currently about 2 percent.

Lots of other people live tax-free, too. I have Donald Trump’s tax records for four years early in his career. He paid no taxes for two of those years. Big real-estate investors enjoy tax-free living under a 1993 law President Clinton signed. It lets “professional” real-estate investors use paper losses like depreciation on their buildings against any cash income, even if they end up with negative incomes like Trump.

Frank and Jamie McCourt, who own the Los Angeles Dodgers, have not paid any income taxes since at least 2004, their divorce case revealed. Yet they spent $45 million one year alone. How? They just borrowed against Dodger ticket revenue and other assets. To the IRS, they look like paupers.

In Wisconsin, Terrence Wall, who unsuccessfully sought the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate in 2010, paid no income taxes on as much as $14 million of recent income, his disclosure forms showed. Asked about his living tax-free while working people pay taxes, he had a simple response: Everyone should pay less.

Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: AUTHOR CALCULATIONS FROM IRS

5. And (surprise!) since Reagan, only the wealthy have gained significant income.

The Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute and similar conservative marketing organizations tell us relentlessly that lower tax rates will make us all better off.

“When tax rates are reduced, the economy’s growth rate improves and living standards increase,” according to Daniel J. Mitchell, an economist at Heritage until he joined Cato. He says that supply-side economics is “the simple notion that lower tax rates will boost work, saving, investment and entrepreneurship.”

When Reagan was elected president, the top marginal tax rate (the tax rate paid on the last dollar of income earned) was 70 percent. He cut it to 50 percent and then 28 percent starting in 1987. It was raised by George H.W. Bush and Clinton, and then cut by George W. Bush. The top rate is now 35 percent.

Since 1980, when Reagan won the presidency promising prosperity through tax cuts, the average income of the vast majority—the bottom 90 percent of Americans—has increased a meager $303, or 1 percent. Put another way, for each dollar people in the vast majority made in 1980, in 2008 their income was up to $1.01.

Those at the top did better. The top 1 percent’s average income more than doubled to $1.1 million, according to an analysis of tax data by economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez. The really rich, the top one-tenth of 1 percent, each enjoyed almost $4 in 2008 for each dollar in 1980.

The top 300,000 Americans now enjoy almost as much income as the bottom 150 million, the data show.

Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: MARTIN SULLIVAN, TAX ANALYSTS ECONOMIST, FROM DATA AT BEA.GOV

6. When it comes to corporations, the story is much the same—less taxes.

Corporate profits in 2008, the latest year for which data are available, were $1,830 billion, up almost 12 percent from $1,638.7 billion in 2000. Yet, even though corporate tax rates have not been cut, corporate income-tax revenues fell to $230 billion from $249 billion—an 8 percent decline, thanks to a number of loopholes. The official 2010 profit numbers are not added up and released by the government, but the amount paid in corporate taxes is: In 2010 they fell further, to $191 billion—a decline of more than 23 percent compared with 2000.

Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: IRS

7. Some corporate tax breaks destroy jobs.

Despite all the noise that America has the world’s second-highest corporate tax rate, the actual taxes paid by corporations are falling because of the growing number of loopholes and companies shifting profits to tax havens like the Cayman Islands.

And right now America’s corporations are sitting on close to $2 trillion in cash that is not being used to build factories, create jobs or anything else, but acts as an insurance policy for managers unwilling to take the risk of actually building the businesses they are paid so well to run. That cash hoard, by the way, works out to nearly $13,000 per taxpaying household.

A corporate tax rate that is too low actually destroys jobs. That’s because a higher tax rate encourages businesses (who don’t want to pay taxes) to keep the profits in the business and reinvest, rather than pull them out as profits and have to pay high taxes.

The 2004 American Jobs Creation Act, which passed with bipartisan support, allowed more than 800 companies to bring profits that were untaxed but overseas back to the United States. Instead of paying the usual 35 percent tax, the companies paid just 5.25 percent.

The companies said bringing the money home—“repatriating” it, they called it—would mean lots of jobs. Sen. John Ensign, the Nevada Republican, put the figure at 660,000 new jobs.

Pfizer, the drug company, was the biggest beneficiary. It brought home $37 billion, saving $11 billion in taxes. Almost immediately it started firing people. Since the law took effect, Pfizer has let 40,000 workers go. In all, it appears that at least 100,000 jobs were destroyed.

Now Congressional Republicans and some Democrats are gearing up again to pass another tax holiday, promoting a new Jobs Creation Act. It would affect 10 times as much money as the 2004 law.

Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: IRS TABLE 1.4 IN 2008 DOLLARS

8. Republicans like taxes too.

President Reagan signed into law 11 tax increases, targeted at people down the income ladder. His administration and the Washington press corps called the increases “revenue enhancers.” Reagan raised Social Security taxes so high that by the end of 2008, the government had collected more than $2 trillion in surplus tax.

George W. Bush signed a tax increase, too, in 2006, despite his written ironclad pledge never to raise taxes on anyone. It raised taxes on teenagers by requiring kids up to age 17, who earned money, to pay taxes at their parents’ tax rate, which would almost always be higher than the rate they would otherwise pay. It was a story that ran buried inside The New York Times one Sunday, but nowhere else.

In fact, thanks to Republicans, one in three Americans will pay higher taxes this year than they did last year.

First, some history. In 2009, President Obama pushed his own tax cut—for the working class. He persuaded Congress to enact the Making Work Pay Tax Credit. Over the two years 2009 and 2010, it saved single workers up to $800 and married heterosexual couples up to $1,600, even if only one spouse worked. The top 5 percent or so of taxpayers were denied this tax break.

The Obama administration called it “the biggest middle-class tax cut” ever. Yet last December the Republicans, poised to regain control of the House of Representatives, killed Obama’s Making Work Pay Credit while extending the Bush tax cuts for two more years—a policy Obama agreed to.

By doing so, Congressional Republican leaders increased taxes on a third of Americans, virtually all of them the working poor, this year.

As a result, of the 155 million households in the tax system, 51 million will pay an average of $129 more this year. That is $6.6 billion in higher taxes for the working poor, the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center estimated.

In addition, the Republicans changed the rate of workers’ FICA contributions, which finances half of Social Security. The result:

If you are single and make less than $20,000, or married and less than $40,000, you lose under this plan. But the top 5 percent, people who make more than $106,800, will save $2,136 ($4,272 for two-career couples).

Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: MEDICARE TAX DATABASE; CENSUS.GOV

9. Other countries do it better.

We measure our economic progress, and our elected leaders debate tax policy, in terms of a crude measure known as gross domestic product. The way the official statistics are put together, each dollar spent buying solar energy equipment counts the same as each dollar spent investigating murders.

We do not give any measure of value to time spent rearing children or growing our own vegetables or to time off for leisure and community service.

And we do not measure the economic damage done by shocks, such as losing a job, which means not only loss of income and depletion of savings, but loss of health insurance, which a Harvard Medical School study found results in 45,000 unnecessary deaths each year.

Compare this to Germany, one of many countries with a smarter tax system and smarter spending policies.

Germans work less, make more per hour and get much better parental leave than Americans, many of whom get no fringe benefits such as health care, pensions or even a retirement savings plan. By many measures the vast majority live better in Germany than in America.

To achieve this, unmarried Germans on average pay 52 percent of their income in taxes. Americans average 30 percent, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

At first blush the German tax burden seems horrendous. But in Germany (as well as in Britain, France, Scandinavia, Canada, Australia and Japan), tax-supported institutions provide many of the things Americans pay for with after-tax dollars. Buying wholesale rather than retail saves money.

A proper comparison would take the 30 percent average tax on American workers and add their out-of-pocket spending on health care, college tuition and fees for services, and compare that with taxes that the average German pays. Add it all up and the combination of tax and personal spending is roughly equal in both countries, but with a large risk of catastrophic loss in America, and a tiny risk in Germany.

Americans take on $85 billion of debt each year for higher education, while college is financed by taxes in Germany and tuition is cheap to free in other modern countries. While soaring medical costs are a key reason that since 1980 bankruptcy in America has increased 15 times faster than population growth, no one in Germany or the rest of the modern world goes broke because of accident or illness. And child poverty in America is the highest among modern countries—almost twice the rate in Germany, which is close to the average of modern countries.

On the corporate tax side, the Germans encourage reinvestment at home and the outsourcing of low-value work, like auto assembly, and German rules tightly control accounting so that profits earned at home cannot be made to appear as profits earned in tax havens.

Adopting the German system is not the answer for America. But crafting a tax system that benefits the vast majority, reduces risks, provides universal health care and focuses on diplomacy rather than militarism abroad (and at home) would be a lot smarter than what we have now.

Here is a question to ask yourself: We started down this road with Reagan’s election in 1980 and upped the ante in this century with George W. Bush.

How long does it take to conclude that a policy has failed to fulfill its promises? And as you think of that, keep in mind George Washington. When he fell ill his doctors followed the common wisdom of the era. They cut him and bled him to remove bad blood. As Washington’s condition grew worse, they bled him more. And like the mantra of tax cuts for the rich, they kept applying the same treatment until they killed him.

Luckily we don’t bleed the sick anymore, but we are bleeding our government to death.

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_want_you_to_know_about_taxes.html

created by JJFad on Apr 15, 2011 at 01:51:10 pm     Politics     Comments: 17

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OK, so raise taxes through the roof.

Oh wait, the Dems don't even have the stones to do that:

Just 77 Democrats voted for liberal budget alternative

I understand your points JJ (or whomever wrote the bulk of the post), but just jacking up taxes or blaming the rich for pushing supply side economics on us won't do it. The spending by both parties is killing us. It is utterly ridiculous that we were going to have a shutdown pissing about $60 billion when the deficit is $14,000,000,000,000.

I'm pretty conservative--anyone who has read my posts on here knows this. But yeah, from Reagan deficits, to Bush 1, to Clinton (I'll acknowledge the path to surplus was at least started here), to Bush 2 & now Obama, we have run up the credit card to unsustainable levels. It is both parties fault. It is a failure of leadership to be a good steward of the people's treasure (our taxes). Both parties establishment leadership has failed, amid a sea of lobbyists, earmarks, ease of adding riders to legislation that has nothing to do with the rider, etc.

Obama is at least mouthing the words "cut the budget" (as opposed to that monstrocity he introduced a few months back), so you know the issue is important and he views it as important for his re-election campaign. Say what you will, that is the Tea Party's affect on the country--they, at their core, started because of people's disgust with Congress' and politicians' fiscal policies (and it has now morphed into something completely different). No matter who it is or what coalition does it, it is time for someone to be a grown-up and stop spending money we don't have and cannot have no matter how much taxes are raised on "the rich" and others.

I don't oppose taxes that are necessary and proper. I oppose the waste, fraud, extortion (union bargaining), and other associated bullshit that happens in our government office. I oppose backroom deals cut by power brokers who skirt sunshine laws and other public forums to sweeten the pie for themselves at my expense. And the list goes on.

As for the issue at hand, this is the deal with the devil I would propose:

1.) First, Congress passes and 3/4 of the states ratify (as Constitutionally mandated) a federal balanced budget amendment, with the provision that deficits can be run in times of (a) a declared war--not a police action, NATO action, UN action--, a "President gets up before Congress and asks for a Declaration of War" war with a 3/5 majority vote, or (b) a declared national emergency--where the President gets up before Congress and implores Congress to act because of a disaster (physical, natural, financial, or otherwise) that needs immediate access to US credit resources with a 3/5 majority vote. Both deficit actions need to be reauthorized every year and for legitimate reasons (can't just reauthorize deficits and say it's an emergency deficit because schools are poorly financed). Otherwise, live within your (our) means--or tell your constituents you are raising their taxes. Hopefully, the constraints will bring an end to earmarking, "baseline budgeting", and other Washington-only budgetary crap.

In return for this passage of an amendment for fiscal responsibility, forcing Congress to act responsibly, I would support

2.) the implementation of a 10 year, sunsetted, federal tax to wipe out our debt once and for all. If taxes and spending are held to a Constitutional mandated zero balance, I would support paying extra ONLY to wipe out the debt. This money doesn't go to the general fund. It does not go to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, preserving the green-assed, three-toed BearPenguin found in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada (or associated cowboy poetry festivals, he-he)....it all goes towards getting China and other associated creditors off our backs. You know what would bring back hope and pride in America--not an Obama speech, not flag-waving our asses off, but being on the road to being out of debt to nations who we should view as nations trying to strangle us with our own extravagance. Wouldn't it be great to wake up one morning and hear on the news "Federal budget analysts have announced that the United States has a $100 billion surplus for fiscal year 2022. Congress supports spending this surplus on....(fill in the blank)" instead of the non-stop doom and gloom we hear every day? It's killing our national spirit, it really is.

Anyway, I'm sorry for going on and on...and I'm sure there will be plenty of people who point out the flaws and impracticalities and whatever with this--and want to blame one side or the other. We cannot go on the way we have been going, that is one thing we agree on JJ.

posted by oldhometown on Apr 15, 2011 at 02:48:16 pm     #  

Absolutely I agree that things cannot continue in their present state. I just thought the article was enlightening on the several myths that are presented as arguments when taxes are discussed.

I think the underlying point of the article, and part of your post, is corruption, manipulation of data, and a sense that America's current path is not sustainable. Whether it's unions or banks, the base of America's population is being destroyed and cannibalizing itself.

posted by JJFad on Apr 15, 2011 at 03:10:45 pm     #  

Whether it's unions or banks, the base of America's population is being destroyed and cannibalizing itself.

SHOULD BE

Whether it's unions or banks, the dishonesty has to come to an end. The base of America's population is being destroyed and cannibalizing itself.

posted by JJFad on Apr 15, 2011 at 03:12:40 pm     #  

I was very conservative, but the last couple of years with the things I've seen around the world and right here in my immediate friends and family (even some well written post on TT) has changed my view some what closer to the center.

I'm just so sick of having money dumped down the tubes all over the world in killing people or having people stand around ready to kill people. I'm sick of dumping money down the drain on education and still not getting it right and the only answer is more money over and over. I'm sick of a broken welfare system that rewards families for not being together and giving raises when you compound the interest. I'm sick of knowing he have a billion flushed down the john in Libya (and there will be troops on the ground) but but old folks who have paid in their share over this life have to choose between meals or medicine.

Just because many "conservatives" are sick of the endless waste doesn't mean we believe we should pay no taxes. The President tells me his healthcare is going to be cost effective and it's not, who's gonna get the bill for that? Us the middle class. Then you tell me your not going to tax the middle class and you are gonna get those "evil rich people" but then propose to eliminate the mortgage interest credit which has been a reward to middle class people for home ownership. You can argue against it or for it but the 600 bucks a year means more to the middle class than 10k does to the rich. Until we fix the tax code and eliminate loopholes or goto a flax tax, no matter how much you tax "the rich" they will find a away out of it, so how will then get stuck with the debt? You guessed it, the middle class. Thats why I cant support more taxes cause "the rich" weasel out and the Dems flush the money down the tubes of ACORN and needles for hookers and we pay for it all (or in this case our grand kids too).

I agree with OHT, I too would pay a 10 year sunsetted tax to clear out the budget but only if it came with drastically reducing the size of government.

posted by dbw8906 on Apr 15, 2011 at 05:17:23 pm     #  

king james. Proverb 30:09. Inspirational. If youre so inclined.

posted by tm2 on Apr 15, 2011 at 09:43:54 pm     #  

Strange article that makes a lot of statements but also contradicts itself and tilts all commentary down one slope. There's a saying that suggests if you torture numbers long enough they will prove anything you want them to and any pundit on one side of the isle or the other can tell a story that presents itself in one fashion.

Fact 1, (from personal experience... not from something I copied and pasted) - I've paid a lot in taxes. My wife has paid a lot in taxes! I just ran a quick report and 57% of our expenses in the last 5 years was for taxes alone and that does not include the hidden taxes we see in your cable bills and other utilities.

Fact 2 - The more we made - the higher percentage of tax we paid on each dollar we earned. That's called penalizing success.

Neither of us have ever collected a penny for unemployment, disability or any other item. Can we get a refund for that? We haven't been inn jail or required a lot of "city services."

We know how much we have both paid into Social Security and how much our employers have matched into Social Security. Had we been given the option to opt out of Social Security when we were 18 and had that money go directly into a low risk bond fund it is likely we would have 10X the amount of payout we will ever see in money come back to us on Social Security. Who is getting all the money that was put in under our names and from our employers?

When reading articles presently about low taxes recently for the wealthy remember... many of them have carry over losses from investment losses incurred in 2008 if they sold shares. You might call that a tax perk but these same investors likely paid substantial taxes on gains during the market run ups. Many have shares now that have gains again and they will again pay tax on those gains once they sell again.

Fact 3 - Since I semi retired we have seen a sharp drop in taxes due to lower income. Not just the amount we pay but the amount on each dollar earned. So... we do pay less percentage tax as we earn less.

We don't smoke, we don't play the lottery. Even with a paid off mortgage we can't afford those luxuries and wonder how the poor can so we do not consider that as a valid discussion when saying the poor pay taxes.

Before asking for more money you have to slim down the Government waste. Mend the leaking holes before just adding more water! Our Government has to be lean and ultra efficient. The article above makes no mention that it is using historical data but not discussing the topic that we are not competing the same as we did 50 years ago. We are now competing on a Global marketplace.

Last - If there are serious flaws in a system that is grossly abused by many it's wise to be on the look out. Look who is making the biggest fuss about changes occurring in that flawed system (the abusers). Look who is most ridiculed (the reformers). That's why I love to hear the rhetoric about "Tea Baggers" or other such attacks. Anytime I hear one side so vilified I've learned to pay attention... They might be RIGHT, otherwise the bees in the nest wouldn't even be stirring.

You compete in the NOW and you live in the NOW and you need solutions that are based on the NOW - Not on yesterdays. It's a brand new World out there today.

posted by Danneskjold on Apr 17, 2011 at 11:17:15 pm     #  

I'd love to see how you a break down of how you get to 57%. By Toledo standards my wife and I do reasonably well and we don't pay anywhere close to 57%

posted by SensorG on Apr 18, 2011 at 08:37:01 am     #  

So for 30 years we've been doing this to ourselves? Seems you forget who was in charge the last couple of years, Just like Toledo has been run by the same party for the last several decades.

posted by Linecrosser on Apr 18, 2011 at 09:05:30 am     #  

SensorG,

57% of "expenses" are taxes. Not 57% tax bracket. Sorry if confusing.

It's a unique way to look at how much you actually pay in taxes when you line it up with all of your other expenses.

Example - a person has $60,000 in expenses and taxes combined in a year. at 57% (as in my case) that would mean they paid $34,200 in taxes and $25,800 in other expenses like food, utilities, gas, vacation, etc....
* These are not my totals above but just an example.

I would suggest that anyone who keeps track of their expenses run the numbers.

That's why as I look at the bigger picture I'm not so inclined anymore to complain about a gallon of milk going from $1.90 to $2.18 as I am how much Uncle Sam is taking out of my pocket and frittering away.

posted by Danneskjold on Apr 18, 2011 at 10:59:45 am     #  

I got what you were saying Danneskjold, but I'd like to see how even at an income of $60K per year you're paying $34K in taxes. Show your work.

posted by SensorG on Apr 18, 2011 at 11:14:17 am     #  

I'm not suggesting $60k of income per year and $34k in taxes. I am talking purely about expenses for this exercise.

I'm not saying that income is not relevant (it is) but another way to really awaken to just how much money we pay in taxes is to compare it to how much you spend on all other items.

In my case - My wife and I pay more in taxes then we do for all of our living expenses. Taxes account for 57% of our expenses.

posted by Danneskjold on Apr 18, 2011 at 11:49:11 am     #  

Again, Danneskold...how? If you make $60K for example and live in a $300K house, your taxes are going to be larger part of your budget than if you lived in a $100K house.

That said, show your work.

posted by SensorG on Apr 18, 2011 at 01:07:26 pm     #  

Other tax news...America’s Taxes Hit Historic Lows
http://www.ocregister.com/news/-117079-ocprint--.html

While Republican lawmakers appear unified against tax increases and many Tea Party activists want existing rates rolled back, statistics consistently show that federal taxes are at a historic low.

For the past two years, a family of four earning the median income has paid less in federal income taxes than at any time since at least 1955, according to the Tax Policy Center. All federal, state and local taxes combined are a lower percentage of per-capita income than at any time since the 1960s, according to the Tax Foundation. The highest income-tax bracket is its lowest since 1992. At 35 percent, it’s well below the 50 percent mark of much of the 1980s and the 70 percent bracket of the 1970s.

Conservatives keep telling us that if we lower taxes and destroy unions the economy will respond. Well, both taxes and union membership is at a 50-60 year low. When is the economy going to respond?

posted by SensorG on Apr 18, 2011 at 02:44:40 pm     #   1 person liked this

Perhaps when either Democrat or Republican controlled Congress / The President stop authorizing $1 trillion deficits? Or any deficits at all?

Just a thought...

posted by oldhometown on Apr 18, 2011 at 03:00:36 pm     #  

SensorG, don't bring that liberal propaganda known as "facts" into this discussion, the neocons don't appreciate it. You have obviously also been brainwashed by George Soros, hate liberty, and do not believe in personal responsibility.

Also, Danneskjold is using terms that only have meaning within the context of his statements to make his argument look better and earn his argument sympathy. It is common for any propagandist to do, as when you define your own terms or use a narrow definition, you are technically telling the truth, even if your audience doesn't know what the terms mean.

He has used the term "expenses" where people expect to see the word "income". Expenses in his case probably means "income" minus "savings". We cannot be sure, because he has not stated what it means.

For example, if one makes 80k and pays 20k in taxes and saves 40k, half of what they spent total (40k, "expenses") is money spent on tax for the 80 k of income. Without knowing what types of "savings" are occurring and what is considered "savings," the 57% doesn't mean very much. Principal payments on a mortgage or purchases that do not lose their value (precious metals, bonds, guns, collectible cars, etc.) could be considered "savings" in his context, we do not know.

posted by brainswell on Apr 18, 2011 at 03:20:53 pm     #  

At first I was baffled why this is confusing but I think after reading Brainswells comment I understand (and btw I'm not a propagandist - I can barely spell that one...)

Savings are separate from expense - for my purposes and I assumed everyone's.

A house payment would not be an expense but the interest would be. Same for an automobile but you have to account for depreciation as an expense.

Our expenses include essentially anything we charge, write checks for or buy. All automobile expenses and insurances, and depreciation. All utilities, All groceries, all dining out. All insurances - health, home and auto. All leisure expenses meaning movies shows, etc. All charitable expenses, vacation expenses, home remodeling, gifts... Essentially everything.

In our case in the last 6 years (2005 through 2010) we have paid more in tax then all of those expenses above. We are not in the highest tax bracket btw.

I do not know what a professional football player or actor making $20,000,000 a year does to limit his or her tax liability (creating charitable entities I suppose) but I know from personal experience if you make decent wage and are honest - you are paying taxes - lots of them. And the more you make the more tax you pay on each dollar earned.

Back to my original point - For people who do keep track of their personal finances I would suggest you look at how much taxes you paid in 2010 and look at all of your other expenses combined. Taxes might not be 57% of that total (I am admittedly frugal) but you might find out that you pay more in taxes then you do for all utilities, groceries and auto expenses combined.

This is not a left or right thing guys - this is an observation based on each persons own finances. You should know how much taxes you are paying and though we all like to paste an occasional link with a story attached somewhere the best factors are what we really experience.

posted by Danneskjold on Apr 19, 2011 at 12:09:36 am     #  

I do not know what a professional football player or actor making $20,000,000 a year does to limit his or her tax liability

Oh that's easy for some of 'em--whether they're A-list or D-list celebs. They don't pay their taxes. Instant tax break...until they get caught.

The Detroit News has a blog called The Tax Watchdog that details many famous people's problems figuring out that, yes, even celebrities have to pay taxes.

You'd think they'd have figured it out since Wesley Snipes went to prison, but no.

Some notables from just the first few pages. BTW--there are a ton of fun YouTube videos on this blog, so enjoy!:

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The IRS filed a $624,934 tax lien against (Nicholas) Cage on March 25 with the Los Angeles County Recorder of Deeds.

The state of California filed a $205,575 tax lien against (Michael) Madsen on Feb. 2 with the Los Angeles County Recorder.

The state of California filed a $62,622 lien against the 50-year-old (Daryl) Hannah on March 24 with the Los Angeles County Recorder of Deeds.

The IRS filed a $629,085 lien against (boxer Roy) Jones on March 21 with the Santa Rosa County Clerk in Florida. According to the lien, he owes income taxes from 2009. The IRS filed a (separate) $2,946,650 lien against him Feb. 11, 2008, in Santa Rosa County. He owes income taxes from 2003 and 2004, according to this lien.

The IRS filed a $5,610,034 tax lien against Li'l Wayne on March 28 with the Miami-Dade County Clerk. According to the lien, he owes income taxes from 2008-09.

The IRS filed a $3,359,279 lien against (Floyd) Mayweather on Jan. 21 with the Clark County (Nev.) Recorder. He owes income taxes from 2009, according to the recorder's office.

The IRS filed a $164,406 tax lien against (figure skater) Irina Slutskaya on Monday with the New York City Register.

The IRS filed a $740,171 lien against (Vince) Neil and his wife, Lia, on April 27 with the Clark County (Nev.) Recorder.

posted by oldhometown on Apr 19, 2011 at 12:45:31 am     #  

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