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TPS Demands Will Hurt Kids

The Toledo Board of Education is currently negotiating new contracts with its employees. My sister, a TPS elementary teacher, showed me the list of cuts that were presented to teachers. Among them are:

*Elimination of all elementary art, music, and physical education teacher specialists. Regular classroom teachers would be responsible for teaching these subjects for which they are neither qualified nor certified.

*Increase art class size in secondary schools. (Who cares? Kids will have lost interest in art by the time they reach high school since meaningful elementary art instruction will be gone.)

*Cut planning time by 30 minutes per week and require teachers to supervise lunch periods, bus drop-off/pick-up,and monitor restrooms and hallways (currently handled by administrators and classroom aides).

*Raise class sizes to 30 students in elementary, 31 in secondary (or state minimum, whichever is less)

*Reduce or eliminate kindergarten professional development meetings, computer coordinators, audio-visual coordinators, library/media specialists and nurses.

*Reduce or eliminate money for classroom supplies, building supplies, audio/visual equipment, and miscellaneous budget allocations (Dig into your own pockets, teachers; they're not going to provide enough equipment or supplies to do your jobs).

*Eliminate current pay system and replace with merit (performance-based pay). Anyone who has read the three-part series in The Blade since Sunday will understand why this doesn't work.

*Suspend or eliminate contract articles pertaining to Adult Basic Education, summer school, reading department teachers, and Horizons (gifted student program). My guess is they're planning to get rid of these teachers/programs.

These demands are only the tip of the iceberg. Teachers will be laid off. The combination of these cuts coupled with the 10-20% reduced wage and benefit demands will produce a mass exodus of experienced teachers climbing over one another in a panic to get out, leaving Toledo's classrooms to young, inexperienced educators.

created by shortysmom on May 10, 2011 at 03:40:29 pm     Education     Comments: 86

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Comments ... #

Is this post about your frustration with the system or because your sister's gonna have to do more for less?

Your posted points are so vague, how can anyone truly assess what is going to happen? Like posting, "Reduce or eliminate money for classroom supplies, building supplies, audio/visual equipment, and misc budget allocations" What does that mean? Reduce by $5? $10? And what supplies?

Where do people think money comes from? Everyone yells and screams when budgets are cut, but who is keeping an eye on the budget normally and looking for waste, fraud, and abuse?
From education to welfare to government, every single budget should be reviewed for waste, fraud, and abuse. From politicians who approve their own raises, to extending unemployment benefits, what is fair?

posted by hockeyfan on May 10, 2011 at 04:01:14 pm     #  

The combination of these cuts coupled with the 10-20% reduced wage and benefit demands will produce a mass exodus of experienced teachers climbing over one another in a panic to get out, leaving Toledo's classrooms to young, inexperienced educators.

Where will the experienced teachers go? Sadly, there aren't exactly a lot of open spots in the surrounding districts either. Unless you're suggesting they will either retire or leave the area entirely?

(Not that I'm discrediting the teachers feelings about the proposed changes of course. Just observing that the experienced teachers may not have a lot of mobility, regardless of their feelings about the changes.)

posted by mom2 on May 10, 2011 at 04:02:19 pm     #  

Most elementary teachers I know don't get a planning period -- they do their planning while their students are away at art, music or phys ed. So, now they will have NO planning period, and have more to teach. Any planning will have to be done on their own time -- and for less money.

Boy howdy, people are going to be lining up to be teachers.

posted by Anniecski on May 10, 2011 at 04:11:01 pm     #  

Minus the merit based pay (which creates the wrong incentives for teachers absent a truly objective performance evaluation), this sounds a lot like what most private schools have been doing for years.

Now if they could only figure out a way to punish parents for their under performing students some real progress might be made.

posted by brainswell on May 10, 2011 at 05:04:30 pm     #   2 people liked this

I guess I didn't realize that elementary schools had individual art, music and phys ed teachers. When I was in school, our classroom teacher did all those subjects along with everything else.

How did these 'specialists' get started and why? If it was done in the past, can't it be done in the future? Why can't regular classroom teachers still perform those duties?

posted by MaggieThurber on May 10, 2011 at 05:26:20 pm     #   1 person liked this

When I attended elementary school, we had separate teachers for art, music, and phys ed. (Small, rural public elementary in Michigan - I started kindergarten in the fall of 1979.)

My kids currently attend a local Catholic elementary school. They have separate art, music, and phys ed teachers as well.

posted by mom2 on May 10, 2011 at 05:41:37 pm     #  

Now if they could only figure out a way to punish parents for their under performing students some real progress might be made!

^^^ duh, winning

posted by dbw8906 on May 10, 2011 at 06:04:44 pm     #  

Like Maggie, when I was in elementary school back in the 60's,
One teacher taught all the subjects in a grade. It didn't work out to bad then. Look how smart I turned out!

posted by barfly on May 10, 2011 at 06:26:04 pm     #  

The combination of these cuts coupled with the 10-20% reduced wage and benefit demands will produce a mass exodus of experienced teachers climbing over one another in a panic to get out, leaving Toledo's classrooms to young, inexperienced educators.

-------------

This is another union fear tactic and in today's economy it's also false. They could have prevented this huge deficit with proper budgeting in prior years. Other than some older teachers retiring, the overwhelming majority of tps still with a job aren't going anywhere else to work.

They only "accepted" a 1% pay cut last year, FULLY KNOWING what type of deficit was coming this year. Now they should be forced to swallow much larger pay cuts.

However, instead they are going to drastically increase class sizes, which will hurt kids.

Another thing the public should know, is that in 2008 when they had a 30m surplus, instead of planning for rainy days such as now, they rolled all of it into their salary structure.

Therefore, instead of the public "feeling sorry" for these self-proclaimed poor teachers, they should turn the other cheek and continue failing levy requests in order to force major pay and benefit concessions.

Unfortunately, in order to punish parents and again try to coerce voters to pass additional levy funds, they will cut things that should be mandatory.

Cutting all high school transportation to save a million or so from an overall operating budget of a few hundred million, really helped shine light just how rotten the leadership of tps and tft are.

They are a bunch of spoiled brats...it's time to correct the imbalances, and send their contract through a meat grinder. If tps cuts too many vital programs, fortunately Toledo parents may use the various charter school options.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 10, 2011 at 07:05:58 pm     #   2 people liked this

How did these 'specialists' get started and why? If it was done in the past, can't it be done in the future? Why can't regular classroom teachers still perform those duties?

Maggie, I'm surprised you asked this.

They were hired to add another group of union dues paying teachers and it also added another layer to the kingdom.

The same thing happened when the middle schools/junior highs were added.

One positive achieved through these levy failures in Toledo, is that the middle school layer is being eliminated.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 10, 2011 at 07:10:41 pm     #  

I would guess the vagueness is probably because specific amounts haven't been discussed yet, but each school has an individual, per pupil allocation for basic classroom supplies. Teachers already spend their own money because these budgets aren't adequate. It's interesting that monitoring for waste, fraud, and abuse is mentioned, and rightfully so, since there's been considerable in-system whispering about the district's treasurer giving his office's employees raises and hiding the expenditure elsewhere in the budget.

When I mentioned experienced teachers leaving, I meant they would retire.

Elementary art, music, and phys. ed. teachers have been in TPS longer than I can remember. We had them when I enrolled at TPS in 1966. Eliminating the specialists is a budget cut that shouldn't happen. Elementary teachers have their hands full teaching academics. Cuts should always be made as far away from the classroom as possible. I'm curious to find out what, if any, sacrifices will be asked of middle-management and cabinet-level administrators. They generally don't share the pain.

6th_Floor, your statement about the hiring of specialists is untrue. What sense does it make for board administrators to hire teachers in order to give the union more dues and, if you follow logical thinking, more power? And, ironically, it was the teachers' union president who told the board in the 1970s that their plan to create junior highs/middle schools was a bad idea and would have disastrous results. I guess the board has finally agreed.

posted by shortysmom on May 10, 2011 at 11:01:14 pm     #  

sm - where does your sister propose making the cuts?

posted by toledoramblingman on May 10, 2011 at 11:07:06 pm     #  

The combination of these cuts coupled with the 10-20% reduced wage and benefit demands will produce a mass exodus of experienced teachers climbing over one another in a panic to get out, leaving Toledo's classrooms to young, inexperienced educators.

Right. Because of this affront, experienced teachers" will voluntarily give up...

--tenured positions

--that pay their bills (Salary Info)

--that feature a 10 month working schedule, plus all federal & state holidays, extended holiday season break, and spring break. (Calendar)

--during a recession...oh hell, a depression...when people are literally desperate for work

--with the local unemployment rate is hovering at 10%--higher in other areas (Bureau of Labor Statistics)

--a lack of Fortune 500 companies in the area to hire the "educated" (story)

--and the alternatives for teaching being lower-paying private schools (20% less salary according to this article). Wait--20%--I guess they'd actually come out even on this one...

Don't think so.

posted by oldhometown on May 10, 2011 at 11:13:12 pm     #   1 person liked this

If teachers believe there are improprieties, then they should hire the best lawyer they can find and go after TPS admin & board.

I absolutely agree any cuts should be as far from a classroom as possible.

posted by oldhometown on May 10, 2011 at 11:17:29 pm     #  

If it is desirable to have students learn art and music, then I think it is worthwhile to have the specialist to teach it. Regardless of a classroom teacher's academic ability, you'd still need artistic or musical skill to teach those subjects effectively.

Yes, the argument could be made that art and music aren't essential subjects in elementary school, and therefore not worth spending money for a dedicated teacher. To an extent, I could understand the rationale behind that argument. But if that's the point of view, then why shift those subjects on the regular classroom teachers? Let them focus on the core subjects, if those are deemed to be the priority.

I'm not a teacher. If I were, I'd have a comfort level communicating information about most academic subjects and even music. But art? Eek...there's no way I could handle teaching art effectively on any level. I can barely draw a stick figure! If I were a classroom teacher, I'd panic at the expectation of being forced to teach art to my students. I'm sure there would be others who would panic at the thought of teaching music.

posted by mom2 on May 10, 2011 at 11:37:20 pm     #  

Rambling man, sports should be cut. Athletics are okay when the system is financially sound, but schools' main priority is educating our children, not playing games.

Cut multiple administrators in schools except at the high school level; even then, a principal, two asst. principals, and multiple deans and counselors is excessive. A lot of them do little more than shuffle paper anyway. Today's enrollment numbers don't justify having so many of these people. Make them carry the same load teachers are being asked to bear. Ditto for administrators at Manhattan & Elm.

Too many administrators are former teachers who left the classroom so they could make more money. An educational system that thinks it's okay to pay people more money for having less contact with students is ass-backward. Employee salaries are always going to be the largest cost for a school system. The highest wages should should be directed at attracting and retaining good teachers - the people who do the actual educating.

Get rid of programs that don't have a proven record of success.

Stop paying thousands of dollars to head hunters to find untalented bums to be superintendent. God knows TPS has had its share over the years. We haven't had a decent superintendent since Crystal Ellis retired ages ago, and we didn't have to go outside the system to find him.

More financial transparency and oversight is needed to avoid debacles like the Dan Burns affair that cost TPS $600,000+. This also means keeping a close eye on the treasurer - the person who really calls the shots in the school system because he holds the purse strings.

Electing school board members is a bad idea. Attend or watch a board meeting on-line. Sometimes these people act like they don't have sense enough to come in out of the rain. Boards of education should never be sold to the highest bidder.

OHT, I was speaking about teachers who are within earshot of retirement. They won't quit, they'll retire even if it means they won't receive full retirement benefits. Better to lose a little than a lot.

posted by shortysmom on May 11, 2011 at 01:46:28 am     #  

I absolutely agree any cuts should be as far from a classroom as possible.

^^^

OHT, I would like to agree, but don't see it being possible considering the deficit. Again, a deficit they have known about for a long while.

Shortysmom, the school administrators are part of the same bureaucracy as the teachers. Do you actually believe people like Pecko and Romano are going to openly approve pay cuts, when their own pay likely will be cut by a similar amount?

A superintendent in charge of 5k employees will likely be paid more than one in charge of 2k employees. Why does that not make sense to you? Equally, a union with 5k members has more bargaining, patronage, and political power than one with 2k members.

Regarding the board, many of them are recycled Democrats already in bed with tft prior to being elected to the board. Hell, even Jack Ford last year a 1% pay cut wasn't enough given the magnitude of the overall amount being cut from the budget.

Ford starts at 1:28 of the linked video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYDP9nnn64c

Why is it so awful to some of you for school employees'
pay being reduced? At least until the economy and property values somewhat recover? Has anyone read the recent TB post regarding Toledo home prices falling 12.4% from this time last year, and 3x greater than the national % rate?

I've already had my property reappraised and taxes lowered via the auditor's office. Since I filed earlier this year, they even refunded a 1st half overpayment.

TPS already should have prepared for lower revenues, but of course they haven't. That would mean taking away their cake and ice cream. Oops, I meant to type it's all about the kids, correct?

That's why they doubled the walking zone for k-8 and eliminated all bus service for high school students...saving that couple million was all about increasing the education tps provides the kids.

Shortysmom, since tft loves to tell us it's really about the kids, and art, music, & p.e. are so vital to the overall educational process, then they should accept an additional 4-5% pay cut. That will provide the money to pay the 7 million or so to continue those programs, as well as saving nearly 150-200 teaching jobs.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 02:04:16 am     #  

Cut multiple administrators in schools except at the high school level; even then, a principal, two asst. principals, and multiple deans and counselors is excessive. A lot of them do little more than shuffle paper anyway. Today's enrollment numbers don't justify having so many of these people. Make them carry the same load teachers are being asked to bear. Ditto for administrators at Manhattan & Elm.

------------

Do you understand that administrators have created layers upon layers to shield themselves from cuts?

There are so many of them now, they simply justify having meetings every day, albeit with each other.

Administrators should be cut at ALL levels, including high schools. That is one of the great benefits with junior highs being eliminated.

We are close to reaching cut levels that will no longer protect these people from cuts. They fully know this, and that's exactly why daily we hear all this grandstanding about these "devastating and drastic" cuts.

I've personally told teachers I know that if they wanted to save their own jobs, it's time for them to break rank and started outing the scams being perpetuated by administrators.

If the teachers aren't willing to do that, hopefully this community ignores the grandstanding threats, and continues failing levies and placing their children in charter schools.

Keep in mind, 75-80% of the district's total costs are salaries and benefits. Like it or not, tps will have trouble balancing the budget without tft concessions.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 02:21:34 am     #  

Overall, tps cut 39 million from the budget for the 2010-11 school year.

A 1% salary cut = approximately 1.6 million.

Hurray for tft shared sacrifice, eh?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 02:28:02 am     #  

Shortysmom posted this at 11:01pm : Eliminating the specialists is a budget cut that shouldn't happen.

Then at 1:46am posted this: Rambling man, sports should be cut. Athletics are okay when the system is financially sound, but schools' main priority is educating our children, not playing games.

------

Pardon me but I'm a bit confused regarding these 2 posts. Exactly what are kids doing during p/e classes?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 02:39:09 am     #  

Shortysmom, I'm with you on most of what you say, except for this:
Too many administrators are former teachers who left the classroom so they could make more money. An educational system that thinks it's okay to pay people more money for having less contact with students is ass-backward.

I think it's important to have administrators who have classroom experience. Your prime example, Crystal Ellis, came up through the ranks.

I would be interested to see, however, the ratio of administrators to teachers in TPS.

posted by Anniecski on May 11, 2011 at 09:36:33 am     #  

Is there a way to privatize art, music, shop, p.e. etc to save money but also allow the schools to keep those programs? Do any schools have an outside company that comes in and teaches the various elective type classes?

posted by toledoramblingman on May 11, 2011 at 09:40:29 am     #  

Is there a way to privatize art, music, shop, p.e. etc to save money but also allow the schools to keep those programs? Do any schools have an outside company that comes in and teaches the various elective type classes?

Sure. I'd bet there are plenty of local artists, musicians, builders/electricians/plumbers, and fitness instructors. who would love to teach kids and give back to the community. But their told to f-off...they aren't "qualified" because they are not certified. So there you go.

I'm sure no one at the Blade sees the irony of having these two stories as the most commented stories of the day (as of 10AM):

Latest contract proposal to Toledo teachers includes 10 percent pay cut
Cleveland school workers cashed in on $5M in accumulated vacation, sick leave

And yes, the Cleveland situation absolutely happens in Toledo Public Schools. Story from about a year ago in the Blade

Schoolteacher Sherry Russell put in 34 years and 120 days.

Under state retirement rules, that's a full career and pension -- even though her last day was in the middle of the current school year. And like all retiring Toledo Public Schools teachers, she cashed in unused sick days as her severance package.

With a TPS budget in trouble and teacher contract negotiations under way, Ms. Russell and 106 other school system employees chose to retire now rather than wait until the end of June and, in turn, secure a $2,000 retirement bonus for giving adequate notice. When calculating pension payouts, teachers get credit for a full year at 120 days, and some have decided to leave midyear.

posted by oldhometown on May 11, 2011 at 10:04:41 am     #  

Back when I started kindergartner back in 79 we had separate teachers for gym, music, art and what not…feels like we’re trying to go backwards.

Today my children’s school (private, best in city IMHO) has separate teachers for Gym, Music, Art, French, Spanish and Technology. .. all those subjects are important and having a dedicated certified professional teaching is best for everyone.

posted by SensorG on May 11, 2011 at 10:07:39 am     #   1 person liked this

Regarding art, music, and PE teachers...does each building currently have their own set of specialists?

It seems like there could be some cost savings by having shared specialists who split time between schools. (Unless this is what they do already?)

posted by mom2 on May 11, 2011 at 10:09:49 am     #  

IMO school sports are the one thing that should be cut, as they are a massive sink for cash. The schools art and music departments do not get even a forth of the funding that the sports do. Parents should pay for their kids to play in sport - and do art, and music.

Children go to school to learn, not play football.

As for cashing in unused sick days, so? They earned it.

posted by OhioKimono on May 11, 2011 at 10:28:34 am     #  

Sick days are for when you are sick, not a prize to be hoarded until retirement.

posted by oldhometown on May 11, 2011 at 10:38:05 am     #  

Is there a way to privatize art, music, shop, p.e. etc to save money but also allow the schools to keep those programs? Do any schools have an outside company that comes in and teaches the various elective type classes?

-----------

RM, seeing that the United Way now has a deep relationship with tps, even if only on a limited basis, they surely can provide these services. The boys & girls clubs have art activities, gyms, pools, and sports teams. Rank and file employees at B&C clubs aren't paid much. I don't know much about YMCA, but it's obvious they also could be involved.

I'm sure tft won't like it much, but frankly, it shouldn't matter now how tft feels about it. If Toledo's kids can be educated with lower costs that's what should happen.

Even though they are walking a fine line of ethics doing it, United Way lately has been publicly endorsing every tps levy request.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 11:13:24 am     #  

OF COURSE THIS DOESN'T INCLUDE ANY BENEFITS.

ROBINSON , Mark E Phys Ed Jr High $96,089.78
KUSZ , Cynthia Phys Ed Jr High $79,468.10
NUESMEYER , Susan Diane Phys Ed Jr High $77,979.48
DICKINSON , Steven R Phys Ed Jr High $77,853.11
SMITH , Kent L Phys Ed Jr High $74,990.15
MCCUALSKY , Kim Roger Phys Ed Jr High $72,042.87
VORDERBURG , Dennis Phys Ed Jr High $69,453.61
TRUMBULL , Terrie Phys Ed Jr High $66,987.85
DYE , Cynthia Phys Ed Jr High $62,162.88
SAUNDERS , Rodney Phys Ed Jr High $61,527.21
HARRIS , Byron Phys Ed Jr High $57,550.97
NORTH , Sheila K Phys Ed Jr High $54,605.90
ALLEN , Kristin Phys Ed Jr High $47,660.97

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 11:14:19 am     #  

LYELL , Peter D Phys Ed-Secondary $88,776.54
BARTZ , Randall J Phys Ed-Secondary $85,202.91
SANDERS , Daniel Phys Ed-Secondary $81,271.89
BURY , Joel D Phys Ed-Secondary $81,239.07
CARN , Ernest Jr Phys Ed-Secondary $77,263.19
AMENTA , Carmen J Phys Ed-Secondary $75,677.34
CRANSTON , Larry W Phys Ed-Secondary $75,637.46
LUBINSKI , Craig A Phys Ed-Secondary $72,365.61
DERMER , Janice M Phys Ed-Secondary $71,938.74
LEHMAN , Janet Phys Ed-Secondary $70,286.51
WICZYNSKI-HUDDLESTON Phys Ed-Secondary $68,702.28
ZIEGLER , Kathryn L Phys Ed-Secondary $67,738.65
LORTON , Cristina Phys Ed-Secondary $65,600.19
BEAVERS-DECK , Kathleen Phys Ed-Secondary $65,190.99
MURRAY , Alice Phys Ed-Secondary $64,664.24

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 11:15:42 am     #  

BORING , Robert D Phys Ed-Secondary $59,668.55
SZYMANIAK , Barbara Phys Ed-Secondary $59,167.57
HARDER , Tyson G Phys Ed-Secondary $57,840.06
SHANKLAND , Diane F Phys Ed-Secondary $53,768.02
CRIGGER , Barbara L Phys Ed-Secondary $49,694.53
POLLOCK , Andrew W Phys Ed-Secondary $47,445.65

And some of you people believe this crap that these people are going to find employment elsewhere in private industry with comparable pay and work? Yeah, sure they are. LOLLLLL

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 11:17:44 am     #  

... and let's not forget the tax advantages to the employee of the benefits/pension system. Higher wage generally means higher taxes paid so most Union bargaining attempts to load the benefits and pension side of the equation so that the employee doesn't have to pay as much tax as if they had less benefits and a higher wage. (We want you all to pay higher taxes to support us but we'll keep our tax tab to a minimum, thank you...)

... and then when teachers and Unions want to make their case they say "we only make this much per year..." and sadly some people buy that argument.

BUT... it's the shell game - they want you to focus on the wage and other extremely minor trivialities like "paying for pencils" without investigating the value of the pension and health care benefits and accrued sick days etc.

The public just doesn't buy it anymore. But... I digress... "This will hurt the Kids...." another stale tactic.

posted by Danneskjold on May 11, 2011 at 11:34:21 am     #   1 person liked this

Children go to school to learn, not play football. - OK

There is more learned on the field than where the goal line is. While I might agree that if you want to keep these programs parents should chip in a little more but to pretend these do not contribute to the development of a child is untrue. Things like: hard work pays off, winning does matter, trust, teamwork, how to handle loss and success are all gained through sport.

I'm pretty darn conservative but if you think that dropping a kid off at a place where they just drone through numbers and figures is a good idea, I feel bad for your kids.

Einstein was not brilliant because he could recite Newtonian mechanics verbatim, but because he had the CREATIVITY to do things with the numbers others did not. A CPA firm can hire the the person who graduated U of T with the highest marks, got a MBA from Harvard, but if they can't operate in the work environment or can not develop creative solutions, they are worthless. I know people with Masters that would piss themselves in fear if you dropped them off in the middle of a busy city surrounded by ethnic people, doesn't mean they are not smart but they lack the skills needed to navigate in the "real world". Life and the business world is much more than being able to recite the Magna Carta.

Art, Music, and Sports are just as important as 2+2.

posted by dbw8906 on May 11, 2011 at 12:58:22 pm     #  

Hurt the kids???? What is going to hurt the kids and its starting already is time has come to pay the piper for politicians buying the votes of the teachers unions. They are running out of easy money and the purse strings are slamming shut. The tax paying people are becoming aware of the excessive amount of give aways that local democrat, part a, and part b, government has given to the government unions and are putting all the lies together and resisting the usual stories for more money to maintain the same ole same ole. The standard line of "its for the children" and "if we just had more money we could turn our schools around" just aren't cutting it anymore. There has been so much money thrown at TPS the schools should have all the buildings, supplies, equipment it could possibly need for decades, but the truth is its all been siphoned off for the salaries and pensions. The are going to shutter a 3 year old school, kids don't have pencils or paper, what is wrong with the picture that a teacher has to pitch in to buy school supplies? And why do they do it in the first place, care for the children or guilt that they siphoned off some of the money that should of paid for supplies in the first place?

posted by Linecrosser on May 11, 2011 at 01:00:38 pm     #   2 people liked this

Mom2, they do share specialists in a lot of areas. For instance, a band teacher may travel from one school to another in the course of the day.

posted by Anniecski on May 11, 2011 at 01:06:30 pm     #  

Schools are like many failed businesses which try to do too many different things and end up doing most or all of them poorly. Schools need to focus on getting the basics right. English, Math, History, science, Government and how to THINK. It really doesn't matter if a kid can play a flute or draw a picture if they don't know how to make change for a dollar (without using a calculator). I have looked at all the different classes kids can choose from in high school today and at first I thought wow this is great, until I heard kids talk, and listened to their thought processes and I realize these classes are for the most part a waste of time, because most of these kids haven't learned the basics.

Now I firmly agree that parents and parental expectations play a big part in the problem, and maybe parents need to have an investment in how their children do, maybe education shouldn't be free, especially if the child nor the parent are unwilling to invest the time and energy into learning. However I also think that schools need to be totally redone and teachers should be more adaptable to the learning styles of their students, and more willing to hold themselves and other teachers accountable, (every teacher I know can name other teachers that shouldn't be teaching, but the Union won't let them speak out against them).

As a side note I am a big fan of the Khan academy (http://www.khanacademy.org/) and although I don't see it as a panacea, I do see it as one more piece in the solution. This video shows what Khan Academy is all about and where it came from: http://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_reinvent_education.html
I especially like the shift from having the teacher teach a lesson and assigning problems to be done as home work to having the lesson be the homework and the problems being done in class, where the teacher can actually address issues the student is having. I remember when I was in school I always thought it was dumb for the teacher to teach us from a book that I could read for myself, but the teacher was not around when I tried to figure out problems that were assigned.

posted by roygbiv on May 11, 2011 at 01:19:14 pm     #  

"Children go to school to learn, not play football".
Physical and intellectual educations are all components of classical education:-trivium, quadrivium and gymnasium.

posted by Offshore on May 11, 2011 at 01:54:06 pm     #  

Is there a cap on how much sick time teachers are allowed to cash in?

posted by valbee on May 11, 2011 at 03:05:56 pm     #  

For the record, I attended TPS...spent all my elementary days at Edgewater Elementary in Point Place. Started there in '69. While it appears that other students in TPS during similar years had separate art, music and phys ed teachers, we did not. In fact, my sister (2 years younger) did have a music teacher in her 5th grade year ... but that was a new addition.

We did some pretty creative things, too. We built an outline of the USA and a rock garden around our flag pole (including rocks from all 50 states which we requested from the states), we had a gold hunt (as part of our history classes about the gold rush), we painted and did ceramics (including some bicentennial plates that my mom still has on the shelf - right next to the clay angel that looks like a kindergartener did it...lol), learned the bamboo sticks/jumping thingy, and much more...

Was I deprived by having my classroom teachers cover these items(music, art and phys ed) and not a 'specialist'?

I doubt it, but then, we played kickball and I hear that's been outlawed these days.

As for today, the question isn't is it 'desireable' to have specialists teach these aspects of schooling, but whether or not it's the most economical solution. Do elementary school kids really need teachers with such specialized degrees? I'm thinking probably not, especially if there isn't any money to pay them.

I'd rather kids go without specialists in these fields than some of the other cuts they're threatening - which are always to the worst benefit of the kids so people feel guilty/bad and approve more taxes...

posted by MaggieThurber on May 11, 2011 at 03:36:58 pm     #  

Schools are like many failed businesses which try to do too many different things and end up doing most or all of them poorly.

Keep in mind that a lot of those things are state-mandated.

posted by Anniecski on May 11, 2011 at 04:56:35 pm     #   1 person liked this

Is there a cap on how much sick time teachers are allowed to cash in?

-----------

Currently they receive 15 sick day per year. They are allowed to "cash in" up to 370 days at retirement, and paid at 70% for those days.

The current concessions list I've read from tps, they want to reduce annual days to 10 per year. Also, they may only "cash in" up to 120 days at retirement, and paid at 30% for those days.

They also are proposing eliminating "sick leave sharing", meaning employees giving accumulated sick leave to each other. That was necessary in order to prevent sr teachers close to retirement giving leave to jr employees.

IF THIS IS APPROVED, WE CAN EXPECT MANY SR STAFF TO RETIRE THIS YEAR. Imo, other than the short term payment required, this concession is a win-win for taxpayers and the district. The retirements help to prevent middle-tier and younger teachers from being laid off, as well as possibly new teachers from being hired.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 05:46:47 pm     #  

6th, never underestimate what the top management of TPS will do. Several years back, I believe when Gene Sanders was superintendent, he gave cabinet level staff raises (bonuses) of thousands of dollars while the rest of TPS employees got nothing. When it was made public, he asked (not ordered) that they give the money back; most of them did. The last time I checked the Blade's info on TPS wages, the superintendent's secretary (she's considered cabinet-level management) made $99,000 a year, not including benefits. Now that's some fancy wages, but it's typical of what the upper crust pays itself. Romano either approves all of this or he just keeps his mouth shut because he's a cabinet-level beneficiary, too. Of course, all employees will have to accept cuts in wages and benefits; I never said they shouldn't. But it will be interesting to see how much administrative personnel are asked to give up. BTW, most of TPS management is unionized. All mid level management (directors, supervisors, principals and assistant principals, counselors, deans, and psychologists) belong to the Toledo Association of Administrative Personnel.

I did read the article in The Blade today about the drop in housing prices. I'm glad you brought this up because it brings to the forefront the biggest reason for the financial devastation of public school systems in Ohio. Schools should never have been made dependent on property taxes for support. The Ohio Supreme Court ruled years and years ago that Ohio's system of school funding is unconstitutional, and the ruling has been upheld time and again. Yet, the state legislature has failed (or refused) to come up with an alternative to fund schools. Even with employee concessions, it will be nearly impossible to balance the budget without alternative sources of revenue. Another frustration is that industries won't come to town unless they are promised tax abatements.

I'm not sure, but I think physical education is a state-mandated course and you can't get away with not teaching it. Sports can't be substituted for that reason. I'm not saying sports don't have value but, when your back is aganst the wall financially, pay-to-play is the only way to go if you want to keep them.

Charter schools are not a panacea for ailing public education. If you check statistics locally, you'll find their rate of failure is higher than their public school counterparts and there are many fewer of them than public schools. My sister has a little girl in her class this year who had attended nothing but charters since kindergarten. She was so far behind academically that she had to be tested and placed in special education in order to get the individualized help she needs to catch up. Kids routinely come back to TPS when charters fail them.

Annie, it's shameful to say, but TPS has a long history of jocks who became teachers so they could coach. This dates back to the days when you had to be a teacher in order to hold a coaching position. When the coaching days were over, they would apply for administrative jobs so they wouldn't have to be in the classroom anymore, since teaching was never their main objective to begin with. The best teachers rarely leave the classroom. It's no secret that the administrative ranks in TPS are filled with less than the best and brightest. So much for administrators with teaching backgrounds.

OHT, I've known Sherry Russell for many years and she's a good friend. She was an excellent teacher and ended her career working in the School Consultation Program where she provided assistance to teachers experiencing classroom difficulties with discipline, organiziation, and lesson prep and presentation. The 120-day rule is law, not a negotiated item. The $2,000 bonus was established as an incentive to entice long-time teachers to retire, thus saving the district money.

roy, you're somewhat misinformed because, in TPS, it's the union that evaluates first-year teachers and veteran teachers with problems and decides whether their employment should continue.

Maggie, regular elementary teachers don't have the time or training to teach art, music, and phys. ed. They are too busy teaching math, science, language arts, reading and social studies and preparing their students for standardized tests.

6th, your premise concerning sick leave donation is completely wrong. It was established so that teachers with an established minimum of accumulated sick leave could donate days (5 max per year) to other teachers suffering catastrophic illnesses or injuries who had depleted their own sick leave and still could not return to work. Those donated days helped some less fortunate teachers survive when they had no income. Also, teachers who donate days cannot recover them.

posted by shortysmom on May 11, 2011 at 08:56:13 pm     #   1 person liked this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zDZFcDGpL4U

posted by jennygirlmarie on May 11, 2011 at 09:02:49 pm     #  

posted by jennygirlmarie on May 11, 2011 at 09:05:11 pm     #  

SM, I'm aware why they had the donation program. When I first read they were trying to remove it, I wondered why would they do that since it doesn't seem to cost the district anything.

However, after thinking more about it, getting rid of it now makes total sense.

Teachers that cannot retire yet, but still have 200-400 sick days accumulated, would donate the sick time they had over the 120 day limit. They would donate it to employees retiring that didn't have 120 days or younger teachers with many remaining working years.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 10:15:12 pm     #  

Charter schools are not a panacea for ailing public education.

----------

I never posted they were. I posted they were an option for parents, since tps likes to play childish games such as elimination transportation.

The pigs on Manhattan even tried firing all the crossing guards...pennies in their overall budget. Shortly before the school year started, they "found" 700k to keep the crossing guards employed.

Public schools, at least in Ohio's largest cities now have competition. They hate it, for their past methods of shoving new levies onto the laps of homeowners no longer work all the time.

As Dannes posted, the standard line "it's for the kids" is so stale now, it mostly falls upon deaf ears.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2011 at 10:24:35 pm     #  

I don't know if this is how the TPS program works with donating sick leave, but the majority of companies have some restrictions in place on who can receive donated sick leave.

Typically, its not a matter of a person on the verge of retirement just giving the sick leave to someone younger. At my employer, the recipent has to be currently on an approved medical leave that will deplete that person's own sick bank.

A person who isn't on an approved sick leave can't receive donated time...at least not at my employer. I'd hope that TPS had similar safeguards in place to prevent abuse of the program.

posted by mom2 on May 11, 2011 at 11:38:52 pm     #  

The problem with this whole thread is if you're looking for any good ideas the TPS administration and the TPS teachers are the last place to work.

They both are failing their students. They're just arguing about who will fail them more at this point.

posted by MikeyA on May 12, 2011 at 12:36:33 am     #   2 people liked this

Mom2, the TPS program has similar guidelines although the program is rarely used except in cases where exhaustion of sick leave for illness or injury has threatened to cut the employee off financially. You must have accumulated X number of days (I don't know what the figure is) before you are allowed to donate and the donor is limited to a maximum of 5 days per year regardless of the number of teachers they donate to. Employees who have sick days donated to them are not allowed to solicit donations. Although it's not prohibited, teachers usually donate only to teachers in their own schools. Donations cannot be made to teachers until all their sick leave is gone.

6th, getting rid of the program will serve no useful purpose that I can see because, any way you slice it, it's not a cost to the district. The Board's intention is that once the 120-day accumulation proposal is adopted, teachers who currently have more time accumulated would lose it. Since teachers are not allowed to randomly give away their sick days, what you say doesn't make sense. As I said, they can only donate five days per year contractually, and only under restrictive rules. Any notion that a teacher could give away chunks of sick leave is ridiculous.

posted by shortysmom on May 12, 2011 at 01:28:54 am     #  

Mikey, as usual, you have nothing useful to contribute, either positive or negative, so why don't you slither on back to SB where you're more at home. I'm well aware of your limited knowledge about education not to mention your penchant for having nothing good to say about schools in general and your fondness for beating up teachers.

posted by shortysmom on May 12, 2011 at 01:44:22 am     #  

I was not aware that after the contract changes are made, people with more than 120 days would lose any days greater than 120. Regardless, I think the perk is excessive and during these times, a reduction is a sign of tps being better stewards of funds.

Overall, I think they may strike before accepting all of the current proposal. I also believe it will backfire on them regarding voter sentiment. It would have been an easier pill to swallow had they accepted small reductions the past couple years. They didn't, so now as someone else posted in this thread...now it's time to pay the piper.

Again, I cannot stress these few points enough. Tps has robbed so much wealth from this community, it will take many years to repair the damage.

1. Tps and tft knew this large deficit was coming in 2011-12 in 2010 and likely earlier. Nevertheless, they only received a 1% pay cut for the 2010-2011 school year. That 1% cut amounted to less than 2 million.

2. Using the tired tactic of trying to force parents into voting for another levy, tps made a bunch of punishing cuts to programs such as sports and transportation. Thankfully, it blew up in their face, the levy greatly failed, and 1400 students enrolled elsewhere.

3. In 2008, tps had a 30 million SURPLUS. Rather than planning for future reductions in revenue, which they SHOULD HAVE known for the housing market was already falling in 2008, they rolled that money into their salary structure. Removing at least that amount from their current pay is a good starting point.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 12, 2011 at 02:17:59 am     #  

Ohio voted in a governor and legislature that are no friends to public education or working class people. For years people have been turning the screws on educators. No one wants to pay more levis. Thanks to other republican policies there are no jobs to increase the tax base. You get what you vote for.

posted by ilovetoledo on May 12, 2011 at 08:16:24 am     #   1 person liked this

6th Floor - I don't necessarily think that allowing employees to accumulate a lot of sick time is a bad thing, as long as there is something in place to prevent abuse of that perk.

200 days of sick time sounds like a lot for the average person, but say for example a person was undergoing aggressive cancer treatment. That 200 days would be used up rather quickly.

If a person accrues sick time and save it for if/when they become sick, I have absolutely no problem a safeguard like the sick bank in place.

Reforming the sick leave policy to prevent abuse of the perk absolutely makes sense. I just don't think we have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Just make sure the right people are using it under the right circumstances.

posted by mom2 on May 12, 2011 at 08:59:23 am     #  

Here is an example of the sick leave days being used properly...

My Uncle worked at UT at a high end position (not saying which out of respect for privacy). All his years at UT (24+) he never called in sick, and was reserving his sick days in the event of something major happening. This guy worked even while on vacation, he was a hard worker and seriously dedicated to his job.

Late last year he suffered a massive stroke. It's bad, real bad. The stroke is so bad that he lost his higher brain function and can no longer perform his complex job. He cashed in his sick days, hoping that in the time with therapy and time he could recover and return to work. He used his time off (around a year collected)....and well, he has not recovered from how bad the stroke is. All the same he used those sick days in a proper fashion.

People who are going to play the system and abuse it, most likely wont even save up sick days in the long run. They will be using those paid sick days as they have them.

posted by OhioKimono on May 12, 2011 at 09:11:25 am     #  

Mom2, I somewhat agree with you.

I think a better solution is reducing their annual sick days to 5-10 days per year. That would be closer to what others receive. 15 per year for teachers that aren't working close to a 12-month work schedule is excessive.

If the proposal is adopted, tps can be sure many employees will use all their accrued sick days...especially employees closer to retirement.

Phones of substitute teachers will be ringing more than past years.

Many workers, including some in federal gov't adopted a policy "use it or lose it" many years ago.

Tft is fortunate to still have this perk. Looking at this objectively, if employees are cashing in 370 days at retirement, the 15 days per year is more than most employees need and should be reduced.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 12, 2011 at 10:10:20 am     #  

Another thing that should be noted is that with the current 370-day cap over a 35-year career (for maximum retirement benefits) the sick leave accumulation works out to 10.5 days per year. It's almost humanly impossible for anyone to retire without using sick days at some point over that many years. Accumulated sick leave paid at full retirement is 70%. The percentage reduces incrementally for those who retire with 30, 25, or 20 years.

posted by shortysmom on May 12, 2011 at 12:26:26 pm     #  

As I stated before. If the people of a community are unhappy with public servents and their bennies---eliminate public services and privatize. All schooling in this country should be private with the parents paying directly for services rendered. Not happy? Change schools. Same for fire, police and other such services. Eliminate all taxes paying for public services and let the "public" pay private corporations for the services. Not happy? Fire the provider. Shrink the federal government back down to pre civil war era size. I would actually like to see my federal employer go bye bye. It's one of the most abused and wasteful agencies in the federal system. My skills are in high demand not only in the U.S but world wide so not a problem for me.

posted by Wydowmaker on May 12, 2011 at 03:32:25 pm     #   1 person liked this

"My skills are in high demand not only in the U.S but world wide so not a problem for me."

Are you a stripper?

posted by barfly on May 12, 2011 at 06:40:08 pm     #  

how much worse could public schools really get? Kids graduating without being able to do simple math or answer simple questions, gang fights, police needed inside schools?

I say it's time for a serious makeover. The bottom line is that if kids disrupt class and/or do not behave, they should not be in school.

posted by hockeyfan on May 12, 2011 at 09:45:08 pm     #   1 person liked this

These school budgets falling apart aren't a Toledo phenomenon, so just accept the cuts until the economy at least stops collapsing.

Of course, it deserves mention that these school folks, who tell us they all have a master's degree, failed to budget based on the property bubble ending and the chickens coming home to roost.

http://bowlinggreen.wtol.com/news/news/bowling-green-close-two-elementary-schools/54681

From the article: Bowling Green discovered it will lose big money because of Personal Tangible Property Tax reductions.

“This is not a plan that has been in the works for months or for years. This is a plan that literally within the last three weeks that has come together,” said Ann McVey, Superintendent for Bowling Green City Schools.

PROPERTY VALUES FELL? NO SHIT SHERLOCK...CALLING DAN ROMANO TO READ THIS.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2011 at 10:18:54 am     #  

Barfly---
Actually no, I am a nurse and paramedic with over 25 yrs of experience including certifications in trauma/critical care,dialysis,cardiology and several more. I'm also a combat vet with two tours under my belt. So how do you contribute anything to mankind? Oh, and I also taught high school kids as a sub.

posted by Wydowmaker on May 13, 2011 at 11:52:12 am     #  

Hockey, disciplne is a sore issue in TPS. Principals and the folks at Manhattan & Elm live in fear of high suspension rates. Parent and community groups jump down their throats for suspending kids, even when the discipline code mandates it. For that reason, some seriously disruptive kids get away with their behavior. TPS does have a couple alternative schools for some of the worst, like kids with mental health issues and serious criminal records, but, by and large, the majority stay in mainstream classes. By law, public schools have to accept these kids and "educate" them. They must also teach special education students with severe physical, developmental, and myriad learning disabilities, and all of these students' standardized test scores must be included when the state grades school districts on performance. Who else is going to take them? The charter and private schools?

posted by shortysmom on May 13, 2011 at 02:14:24 pm     #  

"If the people of a community are unhappy with public servents and their bennies---eliminate public services and privatize. All schooling in this country should be private with the parents paying directly for services rendered. Not happy? Change schools. Same for fire, police and other such services."

Wouldn't that be great? Choose where your money goes?

This might work for a couple years until the difference between rich and poor becomes so vast the middle class disappears. Poor people will continue to get poorer as their schools close because those with means put students in other schools and police and fire move farther out into the 'burbs.

posted by idinspired on May 13, 2011 at 02:39:50 pm     #  

shorty, I've heard that too. When kids get suspended, the parents are outraged and attack the school district/pricipals, etc.
Just like the cops. We've taken away all the power of the cops and schools, and now we're left with dealing with unruly students.
Like I said. Let's make 2012 a "redo" year. Redo the education structure.
Pubic education must be for those who want to learn, who are able to learn, and who behave. If the budget can support those with behavior/mental and other issues, then make separate programs for them. Putting all kind of students together isn't good for any of them. If that is the current law, let's change it. Obviously it isn't working the way it is now.

posted by hockeyfan on May 13, 2011 at 02:41:22 pm     #  

How many other professions mandate that their employees continue to take more and more post-graduate courses and yet want to decrease the salaries? I've seen a few different figures quoted on here of various teacher salaries; this was posted earlier by oldhometown:
http://www.tps.org/employment/teacher-salary-schedule.html
A teacher with 30 years of experience and a Master's Degree (mandatory in Ohio) + 60 hours maxes out at $69,234. That seems entirely reasonable to me. With a Master's degree running at a minimum of 33 credit hours that puts the total cost of that teacher's POST BACHELOR'S DEGREE at $44277.30 (using current graduate level credit hour pricing from UT). Would you prefer that we have less educated teachers? If we're going to cut teachers' salaries does it make sense to force them to take continuing education credits to stay abreast of current information in their field?

6th floor pulled out some figures of phys ed teachers that were far higher than this salary. The majority of teachers take on additional duties to make extra money - such as coaching. Coaches can make several thousand dollars on top of their salary. I agree with OhioKimono that if you want to make cuts - cut sports. Make all sports pay to play. Add up the cost of coaches, assistant coaches, gear, bussing, security, score keepers, etc and it gets out of hand quickly.

Here's a great article about teacher's salaries:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01eggers.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

posted by idinspired on May 13, 2011 at 02:59:15 pm     #  

With a Master's degree running at a minimum of 33 credit hours that puts the total cost of that teacher's POST BACHELOR'S DEGREE at $44277.30 (using current graduate level credit hour pricing from UT).

How did you come to that figure? Unless you are factoring in either not working while getting the Masters (which few teachers do--take a year or two off to pursue a Masters) or paying out of state tuition (which would be stupid--if you live in Michigan, go to EMU), a 33 or 36 credit hour M.A. doesn't cost anywhere near $44,000.

According to the figures below, even if you went per credit hour, the total would still be only $17,247 ($476.10 × 36 credit hours for Ohio resident). Call it $20,000 once you add in books & gas to get to campus. Not $44,000. Am I missing something here?

University Of Toledo--Tuition & Fees

Graduate-Main & Health Science Campus

Ohio Resident (12-15 credit hours): $5,713.20/semester
Non-resident (12-15 credit hours): $10,830.24/semester

Credit hours above 15

$476.10/credit hour (Ohio resident)
$902.52/credit hour (non-resident)

Fewer than 12 credit hours

$476.10/credit hour (Ohio resident)
$902.52/credit hour (non-resident)

Would you prefer that we have less educated teachers?

A teacher's effectiveness in the classroom is not correlated to the amount of degrees he/she has on a wall. Many instructors in private local high schools (St. Johns, Notre Dame, Central Catholic) have only bachelor's degrees, yet those schools crank out National Merit Scholarship finalists year after year after year. There are many young, effective teachers in the public schools who have no need to get an MA--it's only to get a raise so they have to put themselves through the hassle. It is a stupid requirement on the part of the state, serves only to frustrate good teachers...but no politician can say "stop forcing Masters degrees on teachers who don't need them" because then you're for "less educated teachers". Sorry, it's a BS argument.

You don't need a masters degree to relate to and teach grade-school children on an everyday basis for chrissakes...your B.A. should be enough to prove you can do and potentially teach grade school reading, phonics, arithmetic, and English.

posted by oldhometown on May 13, 2011 at 04:23:05 pm     #  

You're correct, I left out part of the math... 33 hours for the Master's, plus 60 - which was what I was saying a teacher's salary could top out at without a PHD, per your attachment.

I went to school for education (and since have moved on - for a lot of the reasons discussed here)and at that time (early 2000's) the state of Ohio was implementing a law that teachers must obtain their Master's degree within the first 5 years of becoming a teacher. Followed by 6 graduate credits for every license renewal (which I believe is 5 years). Forcing teachers to pay out of pocket (some of the suburban schools do cover a percentage) for continuing education and not compensating them is crazy.

Using the private schools as a level of measurement is ridiculous when comparing teacher education. The advantage students at those schools have over most TPS kids is that their parents obviously care about their child's education, which is why they sent them there. Ask a teacher at a TPS high school what their biggest obstacle is and I'd bet 8 out of 10 would say discipline - that the parents don't discipline the kids at home and also that they don't back up the teacher when there's a problem in the classroom. They're parents don't care about education - to many it's like free babysitting.

posted by idinspired on May 13, 2011 at 04:58:29 pm     #  

wydowmaker, Oh I see

posted by barfly on May 13, 2011 at 06:31:53 pm     #  

The article linked by idinspired should be read by those who complain that teachers are overpaid. You get what you pay for, and other countries value education. The U.S. doesn't, and that's why, globally, we continue to fall further behind on the learning curve. Budgeting millions of dollars for sports -and cutting teacher salaries in order to pay for them - is shameful, but that's what American parents want. They would rather see good teachers leave the profession rather than pay them what they're worth as long as Johnny can play football.

My dad was also a teacher who got a master's degree in the mid 1950s, when few teachers had them. He taught for less than 2 years before discovering you couldn't support a family on a teacher's salary. He was forced to leave and find another way to make a living. He made good money, but he had to trave out-of-state 5 days a week and it wasn't a job he particularly enjoyed. In 1961 he turned in the company car and took a nearly 50% pay cut and went back to teaching American and world history and government. With a wife and 4 children (and no medical insurance or other benefits) it was a monumental financial struggle to survive, and he always worked summers to make ends meet. One of the greatest honors he ever received happened when a former student, now a noted doctor and cancer researcher, received an award a few years ago and said that his high school history teacher was the best and most influential teacher he ever had, including those in college and med school. We need to remember that without the influence of K-12 teachers no one - doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, mathematicians - would have been able to achieve success in their chosen careers.

posted by shortysmom on May 13, 2011 at 06:33:55 pm     #  

I thought teachers were in the education field, for they love teaching and wanted to help kids?

It sure seems they complain a lot that they aren't paid enough money.

The solution is simple. Line up and vote against the next levy this November, and again during each subsequent request. 73 million in 2013 should just about bury them in red ink.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2011 at 07:26:04 pm     #  

SM, again trots out another hack line. They would rather see good teachers leave the profession rather than pay them what they're worth as long as Johnny can play football.

^^^^^^^^^

Where exactly are these tps specialists going to find employment with a pay and benefit package even half what they currently receive to teach?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2011 at 07:32:17 pm     #  

Now that I stirred the pot. Folks,I in no way want to see the poor and disadvantaged further disadvantaged. I'm only trying to make a point. The "public" seem to love the nanny state. We want cradle to grave care and services and only the very best will do. But we want it at a huge discount. We want the finest schools and teachers, the best public health care, free housing and food for the "poor" and we expect the public servants who provide and manage this system to do it while working for minimum wage and no benefits. To get the best you have to pay the piper. You don't get a flawless diamond for the price of cubic zirconia. Not that I am saying that all public employees including teachers actually earn their money. I'm a federal employee and believe me I work with some people that I would crap can as of a long time gone by. It ticks me off that I have to work twice as hard because some of my co workers receiving twice to three times my pay sit on their dead butts all day. But it's the same in the corporate world. There are two types of people in the world. Those that are willing to work---and those that are willing to let you.

posted by Wydowmaker on May 13, 2011 at 07:41:19 pm     #  

we expect the public servants who provide and manage this system to do it while working for minimum wage and no benefits.

^^^^^^^

HUH? How are teachers with total compensation payments near and many greater than 100k (working much less than a full year) supposedly underpaid? Especially in a city with double-digit unemployment, and property values falling at a faster rate than the nat'l avg.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2011 at 08:12:29 pm     #  

6th, you're typical of the kind of person who would still insist that if the earth was round we'd all fall off, proof be damned. You wear blinders and firmly clamp your hands over your ears in order to ignore people who just might make sense and then repeat your mantra over and over to reinforce your magical thinking.

posted by shortysmom on May 13, 2011 at 10:16:44 pm     #  

When did paying people for a job with tremendous benefits no matter how you slice it, SM (vacation time, all holidays, 370 days of "sick" time you can cash out), $35,000 a year to start....with progressive increases in salary through age and career achievement...tenure...and a pension guaranteed by the state become something the community needs to hang its head in collective shame over because we're not "paying enough"? WTF? Please...

The median household (not individual) income in this town is $32,000 or so a year. For a household. Intern individual teachers start at $35,000 (salary grid) and, with that all-important state-mandated Masters degree, you'd be up to around $40,000 a year by year 6. All with benefits your union fought so hard to get which, believe it or not, cost money too...you just don't see it as "compensation". Why should any taxpayer be feeling guilty about this pay level? In a recession. With high unemployment and people of ALL education levels so desperate they are lining up for minimum wage McDonalds jobs?

Nobody forces anyone to become a teacher. That the job did not lead you to a glory road of riches and fulfillment and the Barbie Dream House in Ottawa Hills is not parents, students, or taxpayers problem. It's your problem. It's your gripe about your lot in life. You chose to teach because other career options were not what you wanted to do. That's cool. But it was your decision.

If you don't like that the state forces an unfunded mandate upon you ("get a Masters degree"), then work to change the law.

Don't like that the school board puts you in shitty buildings with no supplies for your kids and spends money like fools--work to change the school board and protest against the administration who can't seem to make a budget (and considering this bunch led by Jack "Sleepy Time" Ford, they deserve to have teachers pounding down their doors).

Feel like you're underpaid--take your chances out here in the private sector--the sector with no tenure, no guaranteed state pension, and a work schedule that includes 1--maybe 2--weeks of vacation a year. No summers off, no Christmas & spring breaks, and working on federal holidays. Make the change now before your education and earnings potential go to waste even further.

Otherwise, sit down and do your job that you are otherwise compensated well to do. The rest of us are struggling too. I'm done with the never-ending nagging guilt trip bullshit from people who should be thankful they have such decent above-the-median-income jobs in this economy.

posted by oldhometown on May 13, 2011 at 10:50:19 pm     #  

6th

I made no statement that these teachers are underpaid. The statement concerned all the bitching about teachers and other public employees being overpaid and overcompensated.In some areas of the country teachers are very well paid. In some areas teachers live in near poverty. I know teachers who work under such horrible conditions they need armed escorts to and from classes.I know others here where I live who spend thousands of dollars out of their own pockets to buy classroom supplies for their students. I volunteer some of my spare time as an unpaid school nurse because they are almost non existent where I live. The problem is a very bitter citizenry who in the current economic climate are just boiling over with hatred for anyone else who seems to be doing well at their expense. Yes in some cases it is justifiable. But as I stated. If you want the super nanny state to take care of your and yours cradle to grave it's the price everyone will have to pay.

posted by Wydowmaker on May 13, 2011 at 10:53:25 pm     #  

SM, you are the type of person that thinks money grows on trees.

Regarding people making sense, I'm patiently sitting here and waiting for you to post anything that makes sense about the proposed tps cuts.

What exactly do you propose to correct the deficit other than cutting sports and administrative payroll? That isn't going to get you the 40m needed.

YOU don't think sports are important, but you think p/e teachers being paid 50-100k a year are? LOL

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2011 at 10:55:58 pm     #  

Wydow, points well-taken.

First, I don't want any super nanny state, so direct that elsewhere.

If you or anyone else can cite examples of teachers being forced to enter the profession, I'd like to read the material.

I'm not doing poorly during this economic downturn, and I'm bitter what they are paid.

There is a breaking point with fees and taxes. Any money "taken away" from teachers, is money in the hands of the rest of this community. You seem to grasp the reality that money doesn't grow on trees.

The school system takes money from others to pay their salaries. This would be completely reasonable, if the schools were performing. THE FACTS ARE THAT TPS IS A FAILING DISTRICT.

I also do believe that even if their pay were doubled, it wouldn't be "enough"...they'd be back to the voters asking for more in a few years "for the kids."

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2011 at 11:06:06 pm     #   1 person liked this

$35,000 a year to start.

^^^^^^^

OHT, using a factor of 1.33 - 1.5 based on a school "year", 35k salary suddenly becomes 46k - 52k a year. A pretty decent starting wage.

Dannes made a great post about this. Educators mask their real compensation via benefits. They do this to shield much of it from the tax man (leaving it to the rest of us to pay), also so they can use crying towels to complain about their low salaries during any contract negotiations and/or levy campaigns.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2011 at 11:18:44 pm     #  

It's about our priorities. Who deserves to be well-paid? Professional athletes? Hollywood actors? Rappers who regurgitate filth at our kids? These people make the big bucks because we're obsessed with "entertainment." Education is a very low priority in America. We're totally screwed up in our priorities and thinking.

Do you delude yourselves into thinking there's no correlation between the educational systems in the world that turn out the best-educated kids because they rigorously train and employ the best and brightest their countries have to offer and then pay top wages to keep them?

Until the U.S. decides to get its priorities in order we'll remain brain dead and morally bankrupt compared to much of the rest of the civilized world.

posted by shortysmom on May 14, 2011 at 12:47:11 am     #  

I don't know this for sure, but I'd bet the US can't have many rivals regarding annual dollars spent per public school pupil.

Measuring results per dollar spent, we have to be leading by a lot.

Imo, too much of the budget is used for employees' benefits and salaries. Thus, the proposed 10% wage cut is a breath of fresh air for Toledo taxpayers.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 14, 2011 at 02:35:28 am     #  

Maybe instead of wasting school time and resources creating a bunch of worthless "save our schools" signs, they instead should read the below linked thread.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/work-employment/1128493-recent-college-grads-living-streets.html

posted by 6th_Floor on May 14, 2011 at 02:51:22 am     #  

". I volunteer some of my spare time as an unpaid school nurse because they are almost non existent where I live. "

Wydowmaker, where do you live, in the hills of Appalachia?

posted by barfly on May 14, 2011 at 07:07:30 pm     #   1 person liked this

Does not matter how good the teachers are or what college degree hangs on the wall. The kids do not care and the parents do not care. Whatever happenned to a little home discipline, making sure the kid is doing the homework and caring if the report card is not up to expectations. Teachers are teachers, not parents.

Take a survey on how many parents show up at orientation, parent/teacher conference, etc. Mama Hoops was there for everything, made sure I was respectful to my teachers, encouraged good grades and supported all of my extracurricular school activities and sports.

posted by Hoops on May 15, 2011 at 12:23:03 pm     #   2 people liked this

good post Hoops. I agree 100%

I say change the rules/laws. If the parents/kids don't care, then the system shouldn't either. School should be a privilege, not a right. It's being abused and everyone involved is being hurt by it. Teachers, students who care, etc.

posted by hockeyfan on May 15, 2011 at 02:58:45 pm     #  

Hoops. is right. If the parents or parent don't give a shit
neither will the child. You can't get blood out of a rock.

posted by barfly on May 15, 2011 at 06:17:12 pm     #  

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