Has this been talked about? Promenade Park

Why on Earth should we spend $$ to expand a park that is rarely used???!!!

Aside from a few events a year, Promenade Park isn't much more than a place for waterfowl. The photo in the Blade article pretty much says it all. Both times we went down to the most recent Smoke on The Water event, the "crowds" were pretty much what you see in that photo - non existent.

Speaking of the park and waterfowl, here we had one of the few major events (Smoke...)and the city couldn't see fit to clean up the boat docks a bit? We watched in disgust as people returned to their boats after visiting the event - walking through bird droppings so thick they were removing their shoes prior to climbing back in to their boats. Ugh!

Seems to me we have far better uses for taxpayer dollars - such as the road repair you referenced. City streets are in deplorable condition.

Hey as country we do a great job of building roads, hospitals, and infrastructure... in Afghanistan.

I would like to see the city spend "some" money to turn that into a destination but the "water feature" is over the top. Develop reasons for people to come to the park in the first damn place.

From the Aug 17, 2011 Blade story linked to above:

In 2002, Toledo had a Downtown Master Plan that included changes to Promenade Park, but the plan was still on hold in early 2004.

But in the summer of 2004, Mayor Ford proposed his plan for Promenade Park, including how the project would be funded.

In 2005, Ford wanted to help finance the amphitheater project by using the CityParks Fund. In 2006, Carty moved the amphitheater idea to the east side of the river.

Chicago upgraded a similar underutilized grassy park. It's now Millenium Park with a water feature, outdoor cafes, sculptures that are pedestrian-friendly instead of just being big metal contraptions.

As someone who never goes downtown for beer-n-music fests, I never get any use out of the park as it currently exists. I love the idea of an upgrade ... and didn't a TT-er suggest a while ago that they close that stub of a street and create a larger greenspace? Looks like the mayor's office took your advice! ;-)

How does the city just come out of the blue with an idea like this?
I mean, after all the "Party in the Parks" have been cancelled or greatly reduced from previous years, what would be the return on something like this?
Also, isn't it a bit soon since the marina district was just purchased and improvements are going to be happening there as well?
I hate to be stagnant when it comes to improving the city, but with the casino, marina district, and the docks all finally becoming a reality, what is the rush to build/improve/spend on something that hasn't been really used but a couple of times this year. It's not like people are complaining of it being too small to hold any events there.

Shhhhhhh, the Chinese want this done before they buy it..., on the cheap.

So hush!

I'm all for development
But for a project of this size, it'd sure be nice to have some public dialog about it before they move forward

Thanks for remembering, viola!

And hockeyfan, I'd agree that there would need to be a simultaneous push on the events side. Make it a place to be by a) making it more inviting, and b) keeping it booked solid with a variety of events.

They have already spent way too much money on the downtown. I personally don't know anyonewho goes downtown by choice.

That's because you're old deere1.

Spent too much money downtown? HA!

Toledo Council Votes Down Park Improvement Funding

What would you rather have--an "improved" PP, or some of the streets fixed? Bell is going to veto this with the usual politician platitudes:

Mayor Bell countered that...planned improvements to Promenade Park would attract more businesses, people and jobs to Toledo, ultimately generating improved tax revenues for the city, enabling it to pay for more street repairs, the mayor countered.

Does anybody actually question officials anymore, or is it more of a stenography service? How does a (rather expensive) park touch-up generate more businesses, people, and jobs for Toledo? Details? Plans? Examples? Proof? Nope...no questions...just print it like its the gospel truth.

Is this all you have to say to get shit done in this city? Just say the magic 3 words: "Hey, I'm going to burn down every vacant downtown building, plant wild sunflowers, then force the ugly people to vacate the city-- but these improvements will attract more businesses, people, and jobs!"

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2011/08/26/Bell-vetoes-plan-to-use-750-000-for-street-repairs-rather-than-Promenade-Park-makeover.html

And now Mike Bell vetos council-approved plan to use that money for potholes! I knew I voted for Wilkowski for a reason... this just adds to the list.

They have already spent way too much money on the downtown. I personally don't know anyone who goes downtown by choice.

I find that hard to believe. Either that, or your circle of acquaintances must be pretty small.

Mike Bell=one term mayor with this attitude. Does he even drive eon the streets in this city?

Now that I look at my post from a couple days back, Toledo should just go ahead and legalize whorehouses.

I guarantee it will attract more businesses, people, and jobs...at least in that industry.

Legalize growing/owning small amounts of marijuana. Figure out a way to tax it. More tourists, jobs, small business startups ... I guarantee it!

While I don't ride the river Ganja, it sure would cut our legal/prison cost in half. Plenty of money for a fountain at a park that nobody wants to come too.

db, I don't ride either (anymore) but the economics of the matter just make so much sense! ;-)

"They have already spent way too much money on the downtown. I personally don't know anyonewho goes downtown by choice."

I go downtown numerous times and it is by choice.It is hard to believe that you don't know anyone that has gone to a Mud hens game,Walleye game,concert at the Huntington Center,to a restaurant or a show at the Valentine.I could list a few more attractions downtown but that would probably not change your perception of downtown Toledo.I wish Toledoens would take a more positive view of our city instead of always looking for the negative in anything the city trys to do to improve our downtown.

They really need to find away to bring in the pleasure boaters to the downtown area as well. My brother used to bring his boat down for party in the park, smoke on the water and other events downtown. Paid for a dock space and spent money at the events.

buckeye, I agree 100%. So much pessimism in this town, especially regarding downtown. I for one am happy to see efforts like this made around downtown, though I have mixed opinions about it's importance over maintaining city streets. Though there were some pretty interesting stats about how little the extra money for the streets would actually accomplish in the near future.

My reaction is that the administrations veto should be over-ridden for no other reason that the proposal suffered from strategic clumsiness. Am not sure why this evolved as an either or situation. Think it through clearly and bring it back later.

Isn't this Mayor Bell's idea?

I actually liked the reasoning Bell gave. We can either keep trying to scrounge every last dollar to make ends meet, or we can spend the money now to create something that can bring in more revenue. It's not like it's "do we redo streets or redo the park?" it's "do we give all the money to the streets, or do we divert a little bit of it to the park?" $2.5M is still going to street repairs.

Keep in mind, this isn't going go fix the park... Just start the project. What if they dont source funding for the next steps? I'd like to get a better idea of where they thnk they'll source additional funding to get the project done after round one.

I appreciate Bell's reasoning, I'd just like more information on the planning of all of this, including the timing.

Not sure if this is relevant but when I was downtown at the train station for a train show this summer, the metro parks had plans to take the land just south (or west?) of the Hi-Level Bridge for a park with a walking path over to OC. Can't imagine who would use the park.

And while i am thinking about it, what ever happened to the Swan Creek project behind Farmers Market? Is that dead?

Yeah, that project died. Tetratech, who had done work on San Antonio's river walk (the undisputed Sistine Chapel of river walks), was checking things out and had plans to buy up something like 27 parcels of land along the creek. The combination of cleanup needed (since everybody along the creek has treated it like a back alley for so long) and economic downturn in '08 killed their interest.

"we can spend the money now to create something that can bring in more revenue"

Like the Erie Street Market? How many millions of dollars have gone into that project over the past 15 years? That place probably peaked in 2001.

"Isn't this Mayor Bell's idea?"

Good question. From the Aug 17 Blade story:

Maybe they presented the plan on behalf of Bell.

True, the Erie Street Market probably peaked in '01, but can anyone argue that downtown isn't creating exponentially more revenue now than it was then? Sure, there have been some misses, but I think the overall trend has been hugely successful. So while you can say that it's a waste of money because it didn't work with the Market, I present exhibits a and b, 5/3rd Field and Huntington Arena. Give me a couple years, and hopefully I can add c, the Marina District to the list.

And also, just to comment on that, I have a problem with the fact that the city owns the ESM. Baseball stadiums, parks, etc, that's all fine, that's what the city is supposed to do. But in my eyes, the ESM shouldn't be a city-run operation. That should be a private sector endeavor. It makes as much sense to me as the city owning shopping malls.

I cannot wait until they break ground on the Marina District. Another place would be the Casino if they have a stage/auditorium area there...

Ha, can't believe I forgot that one! Yeah, hopefully the Casino will prove to be a good revenue builder for Toledo too.

Can anyone name a single business owner who has said, "I'm going to start my business (or relocate my business) in Toledo because of their great park down by the river?

As a business owner, I can tell you that 'destination' points (as defined by our local politicians) don't even remotely enter into the decision-making process.

So this park renovation isn't going to 'make money' nor is it going to attract a new business simply because it is changed into a larger stage/terraced area than what is already available next to COSI - or Imagination Station, I believe their new name is...

Additionally, money spent at such a venue is not NEW spending. It is only redirected - just like with the Mud Hens, the Walleye, the Valentine, etc...

People in this area, and in these economic times, are not going to decide to spend more money as a result of a function they may put on in the redesigned park.

If all these venues resulted in additional NEW spending, we'd see our county sales tax revenues constantly increasing. We don't. And remember - the consultants stated in their development report and fiscal analysis of what became the Huntington Center, that the vast majority of visitors to these events would come from a 50-mile radius - they weren't designed to attract people from outside our existing sphere of economic influence.

So what we are seeing is people choosing new options in their economic spending - not INCREASING their spending, just re-directing it.

We're not going to see overall economic growth as a result of anything they do at Promenade Park. Real growth is a result of increased wealth (from a new idea that is sold, employees that are hired as a result, etc...) - that doesn't come from 'destination' points, no matter how 'nice' they are.

Redirecting it. So instead of Toledoans taking their money to Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, Chicago, etc, we can stay in our own city.

And I can't agree that having a park won't encourage business. It may not directly affect it, but I think the indirect consequences could be huge. If the park is successful, and people frequent it, wouldn't that inspire retail to open nearby, say in Ft Industry Square or the old steam plant?

Not to change the subject, but Are we going to utilize the waterfront between downtown hotels and the casino....I think if we used the water taxi, or something we could make some money in the economy on that?

Johio83 - would new businesses open up near a renovated park? Probably...we did see that at 5/3 Field and the Huntington Center. But how many other businesses - similar to the ones that opened - closed during the same time frame?

No one ever talks about whether or not there is a net sum gain in the number of businesses. And that is a key point.

Collections of sales taxes show that we're not seeing an increase in spending, despite the new venues.

Is it possible that some people are not traveling to other cities and, instead, staying here? Yes - it's possible. But how many people would that be? Obviously, not enough to impact sales tax collections by any measurable amount.

Very true, there's no benefit to musical chairs for businesses.

Speaking of all of this, the locations proximity to the convention center should be noted. These are the kinds of things that city master plans should work toward - getting more events to come through Toledo and bring outsiders to our city. Then, they'd be right across the street from this proposed park, which would hopefully have places around it for the outsiders to spend their money.

Not sure about a water taxi as the casino will not have access to it by the water...so i was told.

Yeah, they've said there will be no dock activity at the casino. However, I could see a water taxi connecting Promenade Park with The Docks and the Marina District becoming a popular transit option. I know there's the whole feasibility of making a profit by offering a service like that, but I don't see why it couldn't be successful if the Marina District takes off.

A.) Casino operators want their draw in the building spending money not on the river taking a leisurely cruise and sight-seeing. B.) Operation of any marine enterprise might look good on post cards and from the shore but only equates to profit by running a Very tight ship.

I'm guessing the new Westfield Mall and the new Westgate are also creating more revenue for the city than they did 10 years ago.

Downtown Toledo consists of a few square miles while the entire city of Toledo is 88 square miles.

All your downtown exhibits and the casino do what? The downtown ones are simply massive beautification projects that only affect a tiny portion of the overall city. They do not improve the entire city.

Here are my exhibits that prove what I'm saying: our neighbors Cleveland and Detroit. The following venues have opened in those two cities in the past 17 years:

Cleveland

• New NBA arena
• New Major League Baseball stadium
• New NFL stadium
• Rock n Roll Hall of Fame
• Great Lakes Science Center

Detroit

• One or two new casinos
• New NFL stadium
• New Major League Baseball stadium

Even with crappy home teams, those are big time sports franchises and not minor league teams playing in small venues.

Yet in recent years, when some kind of dregs ranking is released, Cleveland and Detroit are at or near the top. Highest poverty. America's fastest-dying cities. Coldest job markets. Lowest median household income. Both cities continue to lose population. Cleveland's public school system has consistently ranked lower than TPS.

How can Detroit and Cleveland be so depressed with all those economic saviors, like new stadiums and casinos? Their streets should be paved with gold.

Can someone explain to me what the appeal of Promenade Park is or would be to attract people and jobs? It's too small for joggers and too noisy for tai chi and yoga aficianados. Viewing it from Summit street, it sits in what looks like a hole. The river vista is not great (The Docks is much better, hands down). There are only a couple options for entertainment next door and one of them, Imagination Station, isn't something I would go to on a weekly, monthly, or even semi-annual basis (but then again I don't have kids). Fort Industry Square is 75% empty and the parking lot sits right on the riverfront, next door to the postage stamp-sized "park".

Side note--why hasn't anyone put the screws to that landlord to find out what the hell is the problem? With the Seagate Center, Huntington Center, 5/3 Field, the Radisson Hotel, Imagination Station, and the world headquarters of a major corporation literally steps away, you'd think that place would be teeming with stuff and people every day. Nope. Something is f'd up there...

Anyway, I just don't understand the fascination of city leaders with this little patch of land like it's the greatest city park this side of Central Park in NYC, Forest Park in St. Louis, or Golden Gate Park in San Francisco and we must lavish millions upon it. I don't see how spending 2.5 million on this little tract of downtown--that seemingly very few congregate in without an event going on--attracts business or jobs. What am I not seeing?

They are absolute lunatics to want to spend that amount of money for a park instead of paving a few roads. These people have stolen so much money from this community, they all should be publicly flogged and jailed.

According to the blade's website this afternoon, city council could not override the mayor's veto. Therefore, get ready for promenade park improvements.
Either the mayor is in some construction company's pocket and owes them a favor, or the park is his "erie street market/personal shower" project.

Mayor Bell will fix the potholes when one of the future rickshaw runners breaks a leg.

The potholes are a safety feature. They force motorists to drive slower, and that means safer Toledo streets.

Damage done to automobiles from driving over Toledo-style cobblestone roads can increase business at local repair shops.

If some neglected potholes reach crater-size, they may attract out-of-town, gawking tourists who will pay for fuel, food, and lodging within Toledo.

The big potholes located in high-traffic areas could entice businesses to buy naming rights to the potholes. These potholes would be painted with company logos. Since the city maintains neglects the streets, this pothole advertising money goes to city government.

Therefore, in addition to promoting safety, the potholes encourage economic development in Toledo.

Do your part to improve Toledo and jackhammer some asphalt.

or we could move to Michigan and be in awe of our super sleek streets by comparison.

Why does Toledo always want to spend money on cosmetics?

If they have extra funds, why not scholarships to pay for 750 students to attend Owens for a year with that money or something creative that will help create jobs?

maybe because they want their credits to be good for more than a year (bitter Owens student, lol).

The owens scholarships idea is horrible. Giving away free anything doesn't help people, it shows them how to get out of doing hard work and earning something. Scholarships, welfare, etc.

One big problem I see is that putting $750,000 into city labor will probably get you about $300,000 worth of work done. The other money will be spent on wasting time, sleeping on job, etc.
I'm not sure who is getting the contracts to do this park work, but I'd guess that it's either a current or future supporter of Bell's political career.
I'm glad the park will be all spruced up for the homeless and just in time for winter. At least the geese will have a nicer place to poo.

I'd like to respond to one of the questions raised in this discussion, that of jobs for local people. For a couple of decades Promenade Park provided a part of my weekly paycheck, along with 10-20 or more other folks. Musicians, beer and food vendors, law enforcement officers, the clean-up folks for after the concerts, office workers (primarily CitiFest employees), and stagehands will drive that count higher. I'm sure all of us that were involved in the "good old days" of Promenade Park have felt the loss of activity there. The handful of events produced there in the past few years can't hope to produce anything sustainable from year to year. Will the "improvements" to the park directly put any money in the pockets of local people after they are finished? IMHO I don't know, the venue space is only part of the puzzle. I suppose if we build it, they will come.

$750,000 for an additional 50 people maybe getting some part time work on a weekend.
I'm not a financial expert, but that's not a good investment at all.
So the major reason the park is under-used is because it needs these or lacks improvements?
I thought the major reason for doing away for the weekly party in the park was that there was no funding. How is a bigger, improved park going to help that?
As far as "Build it and they will come" comment, just look to the erie street market. That place is a financial dumping hole.

The thing about downtown parks such as this, and these parks attracting business is that you have to understand to what exact person is this space valuable. You could take the whole space and build a big amphitheater that takes all of it up, and it probably wouldnt be as good for adjacent business, as just planting a bunch of trees and flowers would. Promenade Park is an important park with a very relevant location, but unfortunately, besides Fort Industry Square, most of the buildings surrounding it arent designed in a manner where they would host businesses that would benefit greatly from the park. Most of Summit down that stretch is just hotels, offices, and parking garages, that have no valuable streetfront space for businesses the public would use. Theres no space for any cool restaurants or cafes or shops to open up. Places like restaurants, cafes, coffeeshops, etc would be attracted to a nice green space across the street from their sidewalk patios, and in my opinion thats the best purpose that this vacant square of grass could serve...(to just be scenic) and serve as a Town Square. As you said oldhometown, its not as if theres room for all kinds of physical activity here. And like I said, theres not really proper buildings around it for business to thrive off of it.

I think its good to consider the possibilites for Promenade Park, but honestly, I think any downtown revitalization efforts should currently focus on reinforcing the districts that are currently patronized by lots of people, such as the Warehouse District/Fifth Third Field, Adams Street Arts District, and the Arena District. Focus on making these areas robust and thriving.

If the majority of peoples priority is fixing as many roads as possible with this money, then thats where it should go, as opposed to this particular project, right now. Downtown revitalization is important, but peoples local streets are essential, right now, and Promenade Park isnt necessarily essential to the prime areas where development is taking place, right now.

Good points Tobias. Dead on about the buildings surrounding the park--just not very usable frontage opening up to the park itself. Like I said, why Fort Industry Square sits empty when the rest of that Monroe St corridor is beginning to really thrive is mind-boggling. The schmuck or group of schmucks that own it must be wanting sky-high rent which still is not feasible even in that area of downtown.

I still think the park itself is a hole and not as valuable as politicos seem to think it is, but I appreciate your serious reply.

The "strong mayor" format raises its ugly head again. Mayor vetoes a city council vote on spending, and council is unable to override the veto.

So, against citizen and council wishes the Mayor decides how to spend $750,000 in road funds on a park.

Our city would be a lot different if everything wasn't planned in 4 year increments.

Why does Bell get a free pass on this from WSPD? Is this really any different than Carty's bike bath?

WSPD has been very critical of the Mayor on this issue, and others.

TAHL

Not even close to what they put Carty through on his bike path. They had Fred going out on the weekends taking pics of the cities other bike paths, it was crazy.

http://www.google.com/search?q=wspd+carty+bike+path+&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=#q=wspd+carty+%22bike+path%22&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&prmd=ivns&ei=rbFnTpy4Fc7TgQf8naTMDA&start=0&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=7d86af9665111856&biw=1280&bih=862

He spends way more time bashing McNamara over it.

As to the prospect of a water taxi on the Maumee, the operator of it would be required to carry liabilty insurance. Withstanding that, the taxi could not run 12 months a year because the river usually freezes over in the dead of winter.