The Cedar Creek "Mountain Dew for Kids" commercial is troubling

There's a television commercial that advertises free Dew for the kids?

Yes... but only if you attend the church.

Disgusting

I find it BS that in their ads only the KIDS get free soda.

I just don't understand how you could ever go to some place where the peacher is beamed in. I'm not hating if it is your thing, I just don't understand.

That kind of advertisement is really ineffective and weird...bad marketing on their part.

How dare they! I hear they will even help people with problems too. There outta be a law!!!

Captain KoolAid is an atheist.

I assume this is the commercial :

"I just don't understand how you could ever go to some place where the peacher is beamed in."

I hear you. That's why I prefer live theatre over movie theaters, and why I prefer to watch a football game at the stadium, instead of on TV. Unless it's a transporter, I don't want anything beamed.

its kinda about the message and the people around you. nobody makes anybody go. at least its there if they choose to go. but damn that carbonated bevie! damn it to hell!

Well, the Dew thing is better than snake handling or speaking in tongues I suppose. Selling "God and salvation" is a tough market. Gotta "Dew" somthing to get the younger generation's attention. What's next? Commmunion on skateboards?

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

HEY ATTENTION-SEEK, I MEAN CEDARCREEK "CHURCH"-GOERS! YEAH YOU! JESUS SEZ STFU WITH THE PRICK-WAVING "OUR CHURCH IS THE BIGGEST BADDEST THING EVAR! SEE HOW MUCH WE LOVE GOD AND PRAY TO HIM!" BULLSHIT. IT'S IN HIS BOOK, YOU KNOW, THE ONE YOU CLAIM TO FOLLOW!

How many "campuses" does CedarCreek have now? Good use of all those dollars they ask for, eh? Just like all the advertising, the fact that each of their "churches" has enough damn huge TVs to outfit 10 BestBuys.

Aaaaannnnnnddddd what are you opinions on the following:

portrayals of sex in advertising?
violence on TV and movies?
violent video games?
availability of contraceptives?
and the biggie, abortion?

Please share because I want to see how hypocritical you are vs the viewpoint you just expressed about how "nobody makes anybody go to CedarCreek, but it's there if they want to go".

u make no sense. if your bitter say your bitter.

Nobody makes a woman get an abortion anyhow. And by abortion I mean a nice safe medical procedure abortion, not a douchebag falcon-punching a woman in the gut.

Nobody makes nutjobs go out and shoot up the scenery.

Nobody makes people go out and get consensual sex on.

But funny thing, I hear all sorts of talk from Christians how abortion should be illegal, how sex ed, portrayals of sex, and contraceptives should be banned, toned down, all made "abstinence-only", etc. I hear how TV should be family-friendly and violent video games should be banned. You know what? You said "nobody makes anybody go", so what is the problem that Christians have with these things?

and i would hope nobody is PRO abortion, but FOR the decision. BIG difference. But I am not only for the decision, i encourage it even after the fetus has been born. especially when they grow up to be a psuedo liberal who is all "if it feels good do it", until it comes to someone finding solace in religion. in those cases i beleive in abortion up to a really old age. lol.

"VI. This Is Religion, Boy. Not Comparison Bloody Shopping! You Shall Not Subject Your God To Market Forces!" -- the Great God Om to Brutha, Small Gods by Terry Pratchett

Granted, what CedarCreek does is subject God to market forces... funny that nobody questions their advertising budget and why that money isn't going to, I dunno, HELP THE NEEDY?!?

um, ever think that they wouldnt have that budget to help the needy of they didnt have people giving donations? we can go around all night. go there and ask to see what the lead pastor makes. and then ask to see how much $ goes out to help. you have no idea and speak from what seems like fear. its realy hard to find too many people that have been there form day one anymore because they actually envourage people to find and help grow other churches to make room for the unchurched. trust me, lee was a big wig at sears making far more than he is now. but i guess when you discover that you will just see he must have a God comlex then.next!

Ryan, did you spill Dew your keyboard?

on? yep! u2? lol

Religion is one thing. Go forth and believe in God, Allah, Xenu, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, Bob, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster (RAmen!) all you want. I have problems when religion gets organized and starts subjecting the rest of the population to their whims (see also the blue laws, bans on Sunday sales, abortion bans, etc. etc.) and when that organized religion has a book or some other holy set of rules to follow and they do what in my opinion is such a FAIL-tastic job of it that I have to mock them. Jesus was not happy with the Jewish authorities and got nailed to a cross in part for telling people they didn't need to follow some sort of hierarchical system of leaders in order to pray to God. So what'd His followers do? CREATE CHURCHES WITH HIERARCHICAL STRUCTURES! I feel sorry for the Dude. If He ever comes back, He's gonna look around and see the same sorts of hypocrisy He tried to get His fellow Jews to stop, except it's all being done in His name. Dude's gonna facepalm, tears running down His face, and ask "Why, Dad, why?!"

in closing, i KNOW i am a terrible representative for that place. so i will stop. but you really should not judge without knowing, and its really easy to find out.
btw, they knew they were going to get flack for that ad and sent an email out when the first person complained along with testimonials about how that actually made people pay attention. but we ALL know that nobodys kid saw that and wanted "free" MD so bad that their parents are stucjk going every week giving money so they can have pop. i mean, do you really think that makes sense? (i mean, people complain if the speakers dont tuck their shirts in), so they are used to it.

And the books are COMPLETELY open and you can just walk in and see they took in $X dollars on any given day, and where each penny of that figure was spent?

Funny thing but publicly traded companies are held to higher accounting standards than a church. Unless you truly believe that God has the ultimate ledger, that is, and in any case He is capable of forgiveness. The IRS and SEC and shareholders do exist, and they strive to a higher standard.

... the most ironic thing of all is that in pointing out that the Bible says "hey, go pray thusly", I'm in a way more fundamentalist than most Fundie Christian "Churches".

yea, you can walk in and ask to see that. but in your mind i am sure they have two books, lol.
you really need to run for mayor - you seem to hve all the answers. forget mayor, president! show that negro whats what!

errrrrrrrrrr

Great, just what this country needs more of a bunch of "sugared up" porkers.

Everybody bitchin' about the kids with diabetes and how ol' Joonyer is five years old and weighs 150 pounds and can't breathe - well, duh, here's part of the problem!

Isn't this the same "church" where they climb the walls, as in rock climbing? Seem to remember seeing that a couple years ago.

Well, churches have to get their money somehow - if luring in the kids with some caffeine and sugar so the church ends up in Mom's pocketbook or Dad's wallet - so be it, I guess.

Still don't understand how the great sky fairy is always so low on money ALL THE TIME!

2 quick points

1-I saw those very same ads and thought how "wrong". If you gotta get "bribed" to go to church, maybe you're doing it for the wrong reasons. When is the "free sex" ads coming out to get the Oregon Mayor to go?
2-While channel surfing, I found Jim Bakker's Ministry. Here's a link to what he's selling. It's not mountain dew.

http://jimbakkershow.com/lovegifts/today-s-show-offers/1-year-for-two.html

i didn't realize jim baker was out of prison!

...so i will stop.

And, reading right along, we all see how honest and meaningful that promise was, don't we.

Okay AC, I'm your huckleberry.

portrayals of sex in advertising? How about broadening this to public portrayals of sex? The Lord says nix on the blatant sex in public. Christian adults have varying opinions on this one, but usually nix the blatant stuff where kids can see it.

violence on TV and movies? No opinion that I know of.

violent video games? Again, no opinion that I'm aware of.

availability of contraceptives? Contraception should be made available to anyone who wants it. That said, the Lord says abstain until you're married; however, the Lord also gave you a brain of one sort or another which you are supposed to use. That means that if you have sex and kids are not wanted right now, buy an effective contraceptive device of your choice and use it.

and the biggie, abortion? The bottom line here is that the only person who can decide to carry a fetus to term is the mother. That's it. As far as approval goes, the Lord provides little guidance. However, the old commandment about murder can apply if the fetus can and does live outside the mother's body. At that point it's murder; prior to that it isn't.

Personally I've never had a problem with abortion. Those who want children will not have an abortion; those that do not want kids will have an abortion. I'm excluding extenuating circumstances for obvious reasons. Abortion is not only legal now, but it was a fact of life back in year one.

I wonder if JR is going to have to create a Religion section because of this - it isn't really politics.

Those stadium-sized churches, lighting rigs, big-screen TVs, and all the associated equipment doesn't buy itself! Now if it magically appeared before my eyes out of thin air, I might accept the existence of God. Then I'd ask God why he isn't helping those poor starving kids in Africa!

Free sex at church?!? Well prostitution and religion have a certain "history"...

Also I guess they NEED the climbing walls, because I'm just picturing a pile of 8-year-olds after the sugar and caffeine of Mountain Dew. Hope they're smart enough to give it out AFTER the sermon, because the only prayers that would be going on if the kids drank it BEFORE the sermon would be "Jesus, I wish they gave the kids Jonestown Kool-Aid instead so these little crotch-fruit would stop kicking the back of my pew!" and "Christ, I am so going to smack the snot out of my kid when I get home!"

Free soda? Gummo anyone?

AC, you have been preaching your disdain for Christianity for over six years, and in that time, Cedar Creek's average weekly attendance has increased from around 5000 to 8500. "Its record attendance was 21,173 last Christmas." I fear your message is not being heard, and that you may need a bigger pulpit than TT.

A 58% inrease is decent, certainly. No way to quantify whether those folks moved from other chruches or came "in from the cold". The DEW thing looks like an "end justifies the means" approach. Not terribly important how you found the path to God, just that you get there.

I find all organized religion a huge turnoff, not just Christianity. However I don't harbor too much animosity. I'm not fond of priests molesting children, or jihad. But, If Ryan, and the many others who believe, find some comfort then I'm happy for them.

If you don't agree with the ad campaign, ok. If you don't agree with the format, method, size or message ok.

But why the hostility? No one his shoving the bible down your throat, no one is chastising you for attending or not attending, I have been attending Cedar Creek for almost 4 years, and have yet to hear a single member badmouth any other church or person.

What is it about you that motivates you to bash Cedar Creek, another church, or religion in general? Only you can answer that for yourself.

TAHL (Yes the irony of having a swear word in my screen name is apparent. I'm sure it will be called hypocrisy by some).

I'm no fan of organized religion, and I could go on for a few pages why... (and AC, spot on about the history of religion and prostitution!)

But as for this thread, I really don't see anything wrong here. Who cares if they have free beverages during their services? I don't feel like the doctor is trying to con me into something because I get to read magazines for free in his waiting room.

Mountain Dew was invented in the 1940s to serve as a mixer with whiskey. "Mountain Dew" is actually slang term for moonshine. Henceforth, I will refer to the beverage as "Jesus Juice."

Personally I think our city has bigger issues than churches giving kids free pop to attend. Just think the horror if ALL of the children in the city drank a glass of pop while at CHURCH! That would ruin our children and our community for sure!

As a parent of two children, I don't have a problem telling my kids no. If we went to church and my kids wanted pop but I didn't think it was a good idea, I'd lay down the law. For the children who don't have parents who keep an eye on them? Well atleast we got them off of the street for an hour with something as cheap as the word of God and a free pop. Just sayin...

new soda names to coincide with church marketing:

1-Mountain Jew
2-Dr. Pecker (Pastor Pitts exposing himself)
3-Jesus Juice (thanks to Marna for reminding me)
4-Confession Creme Soda
5-My Arms Are Too Short to Box With God-special 6 pack
6-10 Commandments (replaces 7up)
7-Budha Burst
8-Catholic Coke
9-Wiccan Wiz
10-Diety Diet Cola

Orange Crush the Infidels

Mountain Dew equals kids with a sugar high happy to be in church.

I don't see a problem here, unless when you show up there is no mountain dew.

Interesting stuff.

Surprised all posters who identify themselves as cedar creek attendees also endorse the commercial. Perhaps proving a lack of ability to be critical?

I think cedar creek does a lot if great things. I do not question anyone's faith, nor why they'd attend X church. Religion is a personal matter. That said, the ad should have never ran and should be condemned.

So, let's see...

"Personally I think our city has bigger issues than churches giving kids free pop to attend. Just think the horror if ALL of the children in the city drank a glass of pop while at CHURCH! That would ruin our children and our community for sure!"

EXCELLENT POINT! So, ignore small issues and only deal with larger issues? Better yet, do not even open up discussion of smaller issues. Yay, America?!

I think most of the arguments can be consolidated into, "so what we offer one bad thing to bring people in? Cedar creek does a lot of good." Apparently, the idiotic commercial can be overlooked because there is a scoring system? Cedar creek has accumulated enough "good" points that will negate any negative points for their endorsement of giving kids high fructose corn syrup.

Or perhaps the problem of obesity, and endorsing products that promote obesity, can be overlooked because, after all, the kids, who wouldn't normally attend church, are attending church? Surely! Let's play with this point and see where the boundaries are.

So, I propose the next cedar creek commercial offer free booze for Indians. (ok, free booze may be too much... just A beer would suffice.) Sure, alcoholism is endemic amongst Indians, akin to obesity in youth, but hey... it all balances out. The Indians get beer (bad) and attending church (good) for a net of zero. Of course, as above, we'll prescribe more positive points to attending church and fewer negative points to beer. Now we have a net gain. Everyone wins.

Also, remember that the church will only offer A beer, which those with strong willpower can reject. And, the beer is only being offered on Sunday. Clearly, the church is not supporting the abuse or continued use of alcohol... it is simply offering something that attracts a certain group.

Please play on your own. Think of something horrible and legal, and then offer it for consumption. (cigs for smokers, subprime loans for the poor, methadone for addicts... oh yay!) Such a fun game.

... anyway, I thought they were supposed to be giving kids grape juice, or watered-down wine... pretty sure Jesus is pissed about the Mountain Dew thing (not that one could tell Mountain Dew apart from piss, except for the color, sometimes).

Again, does anybody REALLY believe that there are people there BECAUSE there is free Mountain Dew? They get a ride or drive themselves to church so they can have a few glasses of free pop. Really? LOL!

The point is: should they advertise mountain dew as a reason to attend?

For those that would enjoy a beer with their sermon I believe there is a "Suds and Salvation" that is done every tuesday at 7pm at the Portage Inn out in Elmore by one of their local churches... If the commercial was meant to get a reaction it has here... any publicity is good?

And, truthfully, I thought the mountain dew commercial was a joke. I expected this was a cover to get people into the church and then offer flavor water. THAT would have been clever and I'd applaud. But offering mountain dew is appalling.

Too sugary?
They arent offering MD as an actual reason to come, its part of the theory that its a relaxed and casual place so unchurched people who dont attend because they think it will be stiff and boring check it out. Thats the same angle with the live band, casual attire, kids play area, etc.
They could have offered hot chocolate in the commercial which they have served for years. Would that have been as offensive to you? I think you are taking things way too literal. Its not like they are offering fresh chilean sea bass! ;)P

And offering MD and then giving them flavor water would have been false advertising, a lie, a sin. :()

Lol at the seabass.

But, seriously, mountain dew is HORRIBLE for kids. I'll leave the research to you, as there are enough google links.

If they offered chocolate to kids, then I'd be equally appalled -- although I think chocolate is better than MD according to some recent studies.

And, they are offering MD as reason number whatever to come.

It seems like a good place. I know some good people who attend, but this MD point I will not budge on.

So, endorsing that children consume MD is not a sin, but a joking advertisement is? Gotcha.

Time to split hairs here:

Is it illegal? no
Is it morally wrong? no
Does it sound "not right"? yes

Just seems to be a little off center. Just like going to church and having the preacher give a sermon filled with off-color jokes. It's really not illegal, just maybe in bad taste. (No pun intended)

I personally feel that going to church and religion is a personal and private choice. I do not want people at my door "recruiting" me, nor do think churches should use "catchy" advertising to get people to go. Joking or not. Sadly, churches are money machines and I have never seen a church official lack for anything. Nice car, trips, etc. Maybe I'm old fashioned and like to see a bunch of people get together under a shady tree and worship there without all the hype or Mountain Dew.

Again, does anybody REALLY believe that there are people there BECAUSE there is free Mountain Dew?

I once changed churches because the one I went to didn't have air conditioning.

<hangs head in shame>

After seeing this commercial and the obvious crack I made to my husband about 'Kool Aid', I thought it was even funnier that this 'church' is offering to caffeine/sugar your kids up for free and then send them home.

Mom got me to church saying there was free wine ;-)

Sorry. I meant "more funny" (smacks forehead in disgust at self).

HF, i see what you are getting at, but the Walton days are over. CC and a bunch of other churches have brought alot of people to God thru marketing whether anybody thinks its right or wrong. Gone are the days when parents told their kids they were going and thats that, so if makes a kid excited, or more comfortable or thirsty, lol - i see no harm done.

JJ - i am no fan of pop at all, but I am well aware of the sugar load of MD and all its other goodies. Ever see someones front teeth that drank too much and didnt brush properly? Not pretty. But again, not the point of the commercial, at all. Just like there are really no bouncers there and nobody is cutting anybodys ties off, etc.

And while I am at it, if I went too off last night I am sorry. I realy am trying to learn how to "reign it in", but I just hate the hate people have for this place.

I do not have any hate for CC. At the same time, CC should acknowledge that offering free MD is horrible.

There is nothing wrong with saying, "hey, we fucked up. Sorry." I've said it many times and I'll say it many more. There is something wrong with not being able to acknowledge a fuck up.

And, no... there aren't bounces nor tie-cutters... but there is MD. So, I don't think what you're explaining applies to this one particular part of the commercial.

Listen, the people posting here aren't people that want to see CC crumble -- well, maybe some, but screw them. The posters here are.being rational and I think hockeyfan was very concise.

so your beef really is the drink of choice? i dont think its the healthiest thing, but then again i am sure nobody is going there to chug a liter. but like i said, i hate all pop and i cannot lie.

"God thru marketing"

So, give an Indian a beer for coming to church? Not seeing the delineation.

And yes, my beef is with offering, and promoting, MD for kids.

Also the fact that kids are getting bukkaked with mountain dew in the commercial is weird.

I can gaurantee you that what you are envisioning is all you. may want to check on that, lol.
it reminded me of a kid getting slimed ala nickelodeon.

Mountain Dew baptism!

Forget those bland wafers, let's get some chocolate chip cookies.
If parents can't parent their kids and tell them to go to church because they say so, then let the bribery begin.

Jesus wants you to have Mountain Dew, just like he wanted the priests to touch little boys.

What has happened to churches?

LOL!

The head priest at a certain church was giving confession one day when he was suddenly fell ill. Knowing that there was a long line of people waiting for confession, he motioned the deacon over and told the deacon to cover for him and pointed to the long list on the wall with all the sins and the penance for each sin. The deacon agrees and the priest dashes for the bathroom. The deacon enters the booth and takes over for the priest.

The next person in line enters the confession booth enters, says "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned, I have use the Lord's name in vain." The deacon looks at the list, traces his finger down the list until he finds "Lord's name in vain: 5 Hail Marys", and says, "All is forgiven, my child, if you do 5 Hail Marys." The person says "Thank you, Father," walks out, and does 5 Hail Marys.

Another person enters the booth, says "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned, I have been away from the Church for a year and today I felt so bad that I had to come in and confess turning away from God." The deacon looks down the list, finds "Turned away from God/been away from Church, read Gospel of Luke on the Prodigal Son, 10 Our Fathers and 25 Hail Marys", tells the guy "All is forgiven, my child, if you read the Gospel of Luke on the Prodigal Son and do 10 Our Fathers and 25 Hail Marys." The man says "Thank you Father and God Bless" and exits the booth.

Now the deacon is thinking he's got the swing of things.

Another man comes in the booth and says, "Forgive me Father for I have sinned... I... I have given another man a blowjob." The Deacon looks all up and down the list... blowjob... blowjob... nothing on the list indicates penance for a blowjob. In desperation the deacon opens up the back door of the confessional, looks around wildly, and sees little Johnny the altar boy. He whispers "Psst! Johnny! Come here, quick!" Johnny walks over.

The deacon whispers "Johnny, help me out here, what does Father give out for a blowjob?

Johnny says, "A pack of Twinkies and a Mountain Dew."

Mine got my to go by saying "Get in the car before I beat your ass".

I still go today because the message helps me gain prospective and helps me work towards finding balance. Getting my lazy self off the couch is not always awesome on Sunday morning, I sure wouldn't leave the house for a Dew.

If any "Church" is teaching anything other than:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Loving God is loving the ways of Christ: Love, Joy, Peace, Long suffering, Meekness, Humility, Patience, Kindness, Self Control. All of which I fail at miserably on a daily basis.

Many years ago I, a mere protestant, learned about Catholicism from the family across the street. In particular I learned about confession, and that you don't really have to have anything to confess, you just have to confess to stuff. I was then tempted...

Forgive me Father for I have sinned. I thought about murdering my sister with a rusty screwdriver that I'm keeping under my bed. I have a hammer too, and I thought about putting the screwdriver up to her head while she slept and hitting it with a hammer. Since it's my dad's screwdriver it probably has his prints on it, and I could tell the police my dad did it. Then he'd go to jail and I wouldn't have to put up with his big mouth any more. Then I'd have to wait a while, but after a long time, maybe a year or two, my brother Sammy could go swimming when no one was around.

I also looked at my sister while she was taking a bath. For a long time.

So. I don't know quite what happened, but the kid next door was grounded for a long time and had to see a doctor. What a howl!

Sugar making children hyper is a myth. As is yahweh, Noah's Ark, Adam & Eve, Exodus in Egypt, religion being related to better morals etc.....

CC does not serve firewater -- not even at communion (homage to JJFad's incredibly funny and racist comment).

CC does serve -- coffee, cocoa, water, soda - I think all Pepsi products - Coke is after all evil. - lemonade, bagels, cinnamon rolls ........hummmmm and other sundry snacks.

They also serve - meals to the homeless and less fortunate, school bags and supplies to kids, groceries to anyone who comes in the door with ID on mobile pantry days, free auto repairs and often free used vehicles to single mothers..........

The price for the drinks and services -- nothing. The expected participation/attendance -- zero.

The message that is delivered with all of it - God is real, God loves you, and if you choose to - you can have a personal relationship with him.

I guess MD in massive amounts is unhealthy, as is coffee, cocoa, donuts, bagels, alcohol, sugar, caffeine, exercise, sleep, aspirin, work, play and oxygen.

By the way, CC's message also includes personal responsibility, parental restraint, and common sense.

As for a lack of ability to be critical -- I'm a lawyer, a conservative, a parent, and a man -- I have all sorts of ability to be critical. I have expressed constructive criticism to the staff at CC when I felt it was necessary.

TAHL

Isn't it nice to give to those less fortunate when it comes from others?

What is your insinuation HF? That I
am taking credit for or have a sense of self gratification for the deeds of others?

I will pray you find the peace and grace to let go of your cynicism. I struggle with it every day.

TAHL: That's a nice post, and IMHO the best contribution on this thread. Good job.

The only part that I have trouble with is this:
I have expressed constructive criticism...

Criticism, sure. No problem. Constructive? Ah... maybe not so much. It's not easy to envision anyway.

Ha!
Ha!Ha!
Ha!Ha!Ha!

I'm pulling your chain. You did good.

TAHL, not at all.
My point is that the church takes donations, then gives them out as though they are the ones doing the donating. I guess they are, but they take their "cut" off the top to keep that huge church machine going.

I am cynical. The world has made me that way.

Well at least we have hockey.

BTW -- CC does have shinny in the winters at Tamo.

Come check a christian..........lol.

TAHL

Local pastor (Daniel Bellavia First Baptist Church of Greater Toledo) says Cedar Creek is "dumbing down" message: "...the advertisement appeals to the “junk food culture” of today’s young people. In a world in which empty calories are causing high caloric mal-nutrition in our urban regions, an appeal to free Yoo-Hoo seems counter-productive. This echoes one of the primary criticisms of the mega-Church movement. In its attempt to present the gospel of Jesus Christ to the masses, they are “dumbing down” the radical call to follow Jesus to a junk food derivative of the church; all empty calories and sugar water. It fills the belly, but offers little real nutrition. It is quite literally “Wonder bread alone.” http://www.fbcogt.com/2011/11/10/pastors-perspective-november-2011/

Very good article, TARTY. Thanks for the link.

Just some added "food" (and drink) for thought!

Giving free drinks isn't a bad idea. Jim Jones gave free kool-aid. Got rid of many blind followers that way.