Occupy Toledo

What is this, some sort of union thing?

Not necessarily a union thing, more like dirty hippie thing.

Think I might go just to check it out, the problem it will be hijacked by the wolfman's of the world who don't want change, just other people's change.

Libertarians = Republican Hippies

Out of the blue comes a left hook! While the Tea Party wallow in their corporate hijacked movement the masses are gathering in rage against the Wall Street oligarchy. You who listen to the WBSPDs of the world have been seriously misled! Just as what has happened to the European economy is now taking form here in the good old U.S. of A. When college grads cannot find meaningful work and are strapped with college debt so sparks the flames of discontent.

"Something Has Started": Michael Moore on Occupy Wall St. Protests That Could Spark Movement
A bit long but focus on the 3.15 minute mark.

OccupyWallSt.org

See the Wolfman types are all "get them evil rich people from taking from the middle class" and "stop the govt from giving our money away too the rich" till it's their COE's getting the money (see auto bailouts and Obama pumping money into unions and exempting them from BarryCare). End public money for all private companies, ALL OF THEM.

I don't want any of the rich man's money, I just want to stop The Fed from giving them mine.

Apparently "tax cuts for the rich" and "corporations aren't paying their fair share of taxes" are perfectly OK when more union jobs are at stake:

Chrysler Seeks Big Reduction in Value at Toledo Assembly Where It Plans $8M Expansion

The devaluation would cost the city’s general fund $2.5 million because tax payments that Chrysler makes on its existing plant are used to repay bonds the city issued in 1998 when the Liberty/Nitro plant was built.

Where are the "protesters"? Where is wolfman decrying "corporate fat cats"? Where are the usual suspects wailing and moaning about "fair share", yada yada yada....

Oh yes...that's right. There are union jobs at stake if Chrysler says "we're outta here"...

Oldhometown the parade has left you back standing alone. The worn out propaganda is just not working when the masses are getting restless, tired, homeless, hungry, and needing of meaningful employment. Platitudes of trickle down bull shit has never worked and your hero's are standing naked for all to see. All the money spent will not cover up the reeking rot that has destroyed the American Dream.

Do you ever just answer the question and not run at the mouth with a pointless harangue?

Why aren't you and your rabble-rouser bretheren protesting Chrysler Toledo for asking for "tax cuts for the rich"? If you were at all consistent, you would be. They are a corporation, and they are in line to receive a major tax break. Why aren't they the focus of your "injustice" rants?

As for "the masses", a few hundred people braying at the wind does not equal anything substantive. Didn't win back Wisconsin. Didn't recall Rick Snyder in Michigan. Didn't save Anthony Weiner's seat in New York (held by the Democrat party for over 80 years until this year).

I guess we'll see about Issue 2/SB5 in a few weeks.

What's the point? They are competing with the likes of KIA motors.Who are subsidize by the Korean government. This is the reality of the multinationals who whipsaw the life blood out of the working class. Your Republican nation has caused this trickle up while your snake oil ClearChannel brethren mislead the dittoheads against their own interests. But the gig is dying on the vine as more and more come to realize what fools they have been.

oldhometown,

I gave up trying to get responses from wolfman a while ago. I rarely even open his posts anymore. I would never want him shut down though - his remarks and copied links are just about the best advertisement there is for people who believe that success is earned and for people that understand that NO man is born who is responsible to provide a job and benefit to another man.

People like wolfman actually do more harm then good for their cause. The same holds true for the Right as well as the Left. I am generally open to viewpoints and that is why I like reading Toledo Talk as some points of view give me cause to ponder. But again - wolfman's articles always lead me to position myself toward the opposite of his cause - and I am sure I am not alone... Let him rant.

Unrelated to Occupy Toledo, but they will attend this event.

October 1st Day of No Nukes rallies in Monroe, Michigan and Toledo, Ohio :

Shut Down Davis Besse and Fermi 2! No Fermi 3!

1:00 - 4:00 rally in Promenade Park in Downtown Toledo.
Rallies will include speakers, music and other surprises. Lunch will be available at the rally site in Toledo. CONGRESSMAN DENNIS KUCINICH will be speaking in TOLEDO, music to include "The Insurgency" from Detroit, other speakers will include longtime environmental crusader and no nukes attorney Terry Lodge, Don't Waste Michigan's Michael Keegan, community activist and writer Stacy Jurich, Toledo city council members Dr Steve Steel and Joe McNamara, city council candidate Anita Rios and more.

An Ad hoc committee of citizen activists in Northwest Ohio and Southeast Michigan has joined concerned citizens of the world and C.A.N. “Coalition Against Nukes” who are currently organizing synchronized no-nukes actions in cities throughout the United States on October 1st.

With the threat of two dangerous nuclear power plants only 25 miles a part on the shores of Lake Erie, that threaten the lives and livelihoods of millions of people from Ohio, Michigan and Canada we feel that it is time to act. We are calling for Fermi 2 and Davis Besse to be shut down permanently and be replaced by RENEWABLE ENERGY sources -- wind and solar power partnered with CONSERVATION on the part of the citizenry and communities serviced by these dangerous reactors.

That is right in Wolfman's America when you are wasteful and negligent with your money (Big 3) you deserve some of someone else's. It's only evil when you are the one not getting the money (Banks). They always want a "fair share" until then run out of that "fair share" and need that "fair share" to be more "fair".

Even a Left leaning publication like the Economist published a report by the even further Left leaning OECD stated raising taxes on the rich will have left effect to stop a global downturn because governments will just fritter it away. Even some of the Left are coming around to the fact it's not a revenue problem, it's a spending problem.

http://www.economist.com/node/21530093

Is Occupy Toledo going to start at the Jeep Plant?

Which is the evil corporation in Toledo?

Oh rambling whats 8 Million between friends right? On top of what they where already given? Don't see the John Stewart crowd all grumbled up about this one? Kinda funny...

This is why I will NOT vote for teacher/fire/municipal levies because 8 million will keep a lot of teachers in classrooms. Apparently Toledo has enough money that they can give it away.

END PUBLIC MONEY FOR PRIVATE COMPANIES.

From that Blade story about Chrysler not wanting to pay its fair share of the taxes:

And those schools obviously employ union people.

Does the outrage over corporate tax breaks/incentives apply to HCR ManorCare, headquartered in downtown Toledo, or is that a different situation?

Sep 30, 2008 Toledo Blade story titled $30 million in state, city incentives offered to retain HCR ManorCare

Sep 29, 2008 Toledo Free Press story :

Oct 2, 2008 WSPD story

Here are a couple of more local businesses that just got a chunk of tax dollars. Both are non-union so none cares...

http://www.toledoblade.com/business/2011/06/28/2-local-firms-awarded-job-tax-credits-by-state.html

none = no one...

From the Blade story SensorG linked to:

Boo on The Andersons. I wonder if The Andersons threatened to move some part of their company out of Maumee?

What is the point of giving incentives to large companies? Sounds like it's to retain jobs and maybe add new jobs, and this allegedly benefits the entire community or region, right? Is this some kind of trickle-down idea? Somehow my life is improved because incentives are given to Chrysler, HCR ManorCare, and The Andersons.

Why would companies leave Toledo or Lucas County? We have affordable housing, and this is supposedly a good area to raise a family. We have the Toledo Art Museum, Toledo Zoo, Imagination Station, Mud Hens, a new arena, excellent Metroparks, excellent county library system, bike paths, etc. Many of our quality-of-life offerings are supported by tax dollars, so why would a company need more incentives to stay here or expand here?

Where oh where is Ed Schultz now that we so desperately need him?

Was he here and the evil, wall street backed, media overlords at Speedy just didn't cover it?

If Ohio, Lucas County and Toledo had overall low tax rates, they wouldn't need to grant abatements to anyone.

It'd be a great marketing tool as well:

"Come to our (state, county, city)! Our taxes are so low you don't need an abatement!"

But that logic seems to completely escape most people.

According to this Facebook post, Occupy Toledo will gather at Levis Square on Monday, October 10.

Tax abatements are a way to pick winners and loser, just like targeted tax loopholes.

Back to the topic! Well a few of you scoff at any thinking that is considered outside the box of Fox. I have lived my life never taking welfare, never taking foodstamps, basically probably a much more conservative lifestyle than the vast majority who post on this website. I've come to the realization after years of buying the Wall Street model that its slowly evolved into a oligarchy for a small elite who manage our economy for there own benefit. I believe in America for Americans not for those with the means and money to control us. You may think its a spending problem but I also think its a revenue problem as more and more Americans fall into poverty and become dependent from no fault of their own. Most civilized countries have an industrial policy to safe guard their manufacturing base. Hell they even work in partnership to promote industry. Here we allow blowhards and thinktanks (funded by secret donors) to set the policies of America. You may also think its just a few thousand protesters at Wall Street but the bigger issue is taking hold that our government is not working for Americans. Whether it be a misled Tea party member or a unemployed 25 year old college graduate protester we all know that this fact is true. So for those who hide behind silly ideology I say turn off the radio and cable. I remember the day when almost everyone had pensions and healthcare. I remember for those who didn't they worked while young to find those companies that did have benefits and stayed till retirement. The jobs then were available and plentiful. Look around you and ask yourself has the last thirty years served America well?

The last 3 sure haven't.

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If Occupy Toledo wants to "occupy" anything more than 50 square feet they better bring more people than this. This is the crowd at Promenade Park listening to Dennis Kucinich. Thanks by the way to a listener for the photos.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68163415@N03/6201676642/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68163415@N03/6201164107/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68163415@N03/6201671782/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68163415@N03/6201669128/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/68163415@N03/6201660472/in/photostream/

On Saturday, October 1, nearly 300,000 people assembled when totaling the crowds in Ann Arbor, Madison, and Columbus. For college football.

700 arrested after swarming NY's Brooklyn Bridge, shutting down lane of traffic for hours
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WALL_STREET_PROTEST?SITE=OHTOL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
NEW YORK (AP) -- More than 700 protesters demonstrating against corporate greed, global warming and social inequality, among other grievances, were arrested Saturday after they swarmed the Brooklyn Bridge and shut down a lane of traffic for several hours in a tense confrontation with police.

The group Occupy Wall Street has been camped out in a plaza in Manhattan's Financial District for nearly two weeks staging various marches, and had orchestrated an impromptu trek to Brooklyn on Saturday afternoon. They walked in thick rows on the sidewalk up to the bridge, where some demonstrators spilled onto the roadway after being told to stay on the pedestrian pathway, police said.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/223260/20111001/occupy-wall-street-protest-march-brooklyn-bridge-nypd-arrests.htm

About 1,500 marchers passed City Hall and approached the bridge just after 4 p.m. They had planned to take the pedestrian walkway, but the mass of protesters created a bottleneck, so some people started to walk into the vehicle lanes. Police officers with bullhorns announced that if the protesters continued to block traffic, they would be arrested.

<guffaw...cough...cough...chortle> Wow... massive protest! Out of a city of 8,000,000+, 1,500 socialist malcontents showed up. Oooh...I can feel Wall Street trembling now...

Ya...sure you are the "99%"....

Also, any asshole blocking traffic on a major artery deserves to be arrested. Don't care if you're protesting, sashaying, cooking up the world's largest simultaneous fart, imitating Hello Kitty--block the road, you're arrested. It's called public safety.

BTW, does the black power movement know you morons have stolen their fist logo?

Wolfman wrote;" Here we allow blowhards and thinktanks (funded by secret donors) to set the policies of America"

Speaking of blowhards,will Michael Moore,Rachael Madcow,Keith Sloberman or Ed Schultz be attending your Occupy Toledo rally?Just wondering.

Public Safety?

A still frame from video posted online shows Anthony Bologna, a New York police officer, firing pepper spray at retreating protesters on Saturday.

Socialist?

MSNBC host Dylan Ratigan, an outspoken critic of the financial services industry, addressed Occupy Wall Street demonstrators, arguing that if the business of the state and the business Wall Street aren't separated, progress is impossible. A transcript:

My name is Dylan. I live five blocks from here. I think you people are crazy. I love the way you communicate. The world has noticed your voice. You have been here for three weeks, and you should be very proud of what you have accomplished.

For fifteen years I worked as a financial services professional. Have you guys said that yet? I can't believe I'm here talking to you. I'm here because I agree with you. I made the decision three years ago to leave the financial services industry. I did that because it was clear that the financial services industry was purchasing both political parties.

I believe that the fundamental problem with our collective desire to demand the debate America deserves is that both of our political parties are funded by well-heeled individuals, because they are bought. So I have been asking myself what the hell I'm going to do about this. I have decided that I am going to devote all of my resources, whatever those resources may be, with the knowledge that the decision to devote resources is much more important than what your resources are.

I believe that you and every other group of people who know for a fact that the government is bought and are making the decisions to make 2012 the year our voice will be heard. I ask myself -- what do I do with my voice? I look at myself like an an angry villager. I am irate. I know that if I cannot harness my personal rage for positive change I will harm myself and not help anybody else. My question to myself has been how do I harness fire in myself? You can either burn yourself in the town square or you can deliver a single a message to your government.
My message is that the government is bought. If we do not separate business and state, and harness this energy to make that the central mission of this years' election we cannot begin to do the work we have to do. Thank you for giving me some of your time and congratulations on your success.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/occupy-wall-street-protests-new-york_n_989221.html

Nice picture of the cop spraying pepper spray, so what are you saying? Should he have his gun out instead?

Cut it out mom, all of my comrades are looking.

http://occupytoledo.org --> For the Media

thanks JR - this was obviously in response to my request for someone from the group to talk with me tomorrow when I fill in on WSPD...it's the same as the email I got earlier in the day.

I understand that anyone who plans to participate can certainly talk about their own interest in the group and the movement, so if there's anyone involved who'd like to speak on the record about their personal involvement and why they've decided to participate, I'd love to speak with them.

You can message me through FB or my blog, www.thurbersthoughts.blogspot.com

Are most of these people unemployed? Who is available to protest in the middle of the workday?

Oct 3, 2011 Ch 13 WTVG story “Occupy Wall Street” continues, “Occupy Toledo” next

http://www.docspopuli.org/articles/Fist.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fist_Crushing_a_U.S._Fighter_Plane_Sculpture
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KB28Ak02.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raised_fist
http://neofactionapparel.spreadshirt.net/socialist-fist-I13619755
http://neofactionapparel.spreadshirt.com/anarchist-salute-A5178033/customize/color/196

oldhometown asked : "BTW, does the black power movement know you morons have stolen their fist logo?"

From the Wikipedia link that Linecrosser posted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raised_fist

From that same Wikipedia article:

"Stencilled symbol of the autonomist movement Autonome"

What really makes me laugh about all this is:

When Bush was President - Everything was Republican President George Bush's fault.

Unions put all their chips on the Democratic party and Obama was voted in promising change and greater prosperity. Unfortunately... things are worse now than ever. Failed Policies!

Instead of "Blaming the President" the left still can't accept any responsibility. Now it's...

The Tea Party's Fault. Corporate Greed....

N O R E S P O N S I B I L I T Y O N L Y B L A M E ! ! !

I'm posting this because I believe the good intent of the progressive movement in "Occupying Wall Street" will begin to loose public support when people like Rosanne Barr call for the beheading of bankers and the "movement" wishes to dump garbage on some one's personal property. We will lose middle American populous support which we desperately need. We can not let the small portion of the uber extreme hijack the great message being sent here, which is much of the problem with the Tea Party. When we make death threats against other Americans we will lose the battle of public opinion and continue to be labeled as "crazies". Ever hear MLK, the Dali Lama call for people to be beheaded or to ransack the homes of others?

It's the reason I can't hitch my wagon 100% to this "movement" as I will not be part to destroying the property of others or calling for physical violence to solve this problem.

An Open Letter to Occupiers and Libertarians

Submitted by thewhitewhale on Tue, 10/04/2011 (from the DailyPaul.com)

Dear Occupiers, Progressives, Libertarians, etc.,

Greetings and Salutations. I've been reading about your exploits this week in the news. Protests are spreading around the nation, and though largely symbolic right now it must striking a nerve :) (though you wouldn't know it by the lack of media coverage).

But that's about par for the course, isn't it? The Status Quo doesn't want to listen; isn't that part of what this is about?

I admire your efforts to get out and be heard. More over, I encourage you stay out there as long as it takes to be heard.

In that regard, I hope the weather is cooperative and kind to you, because lord knows, the police won't be.

And it is for this reason that I wanted to write to you.

The Occupy! website suggests that this movement seeks to imitate the "Arab Spring".

I'm concerned when I read that friend, because, well, if we're going "Arab Spring" on this, that means we're talking revolution here.

If that's truly the notion, you're gonna need some help.

You see, the crucial strategy that made the "Arab Spring" so successful (for the Egyptians anyway) was non-violence.

Occupy! may not know entirely where it's headed yet, but a few things are clear. First, the longer it continues the more likely the top 1% will use violence to end it. Now is the time to ramp up non-violent rhetoric. Take every opportunity to emphasize the non-violent nature of your presence.

Second, we're going to need to help each other. The second party to that 'we' being libertarians and Ron Paul supporters.

On that second note, what I hope progressives can come to understand about libertarians is that we see that the State can't give anything to anyone without first taking it from someone else through force. Sure, taking from the rich by force seems righteous, particularly in light on the fact that the rich and powerful got that way by using the violent mechanism of the State.

But Violence doesn't make food come out of the ground. Violence doesn't build shelters. Violence doesn't make people more enlightened. Violence doesn't care. How can the solution to any problem be "add more violence"?

Again, if "Arab Spring" is going to be the inspiration here, I want to take the opportunity to suggest that libertarians and progressives can be united against State violence. This includes but is not limited to issues on Corporate War and Crony Capitalism.

I hope that Progressives can find compassion for their Libertarian friends by understanding that Libertarians see even mundane State operations as proceeding only through violence - and it therefore should be as limited as possible.

And I hope Libertarians can find compassion for Progressives who may be attracted by the apparent efficiency of State violence to administrate certain desirable goods and services.

I hope these two groups can find compassion for one another because joining forces can be huge.

Ron Paul's candidacy is potentially game changing because if he were to win it is highly likely that he would tolerate, and encourage in fact, need!, a massive non-violent campaign (like Occupy!) to assist him. He's just one man.

This has incredible potential. But the intention must be made now and it must be unwavering. I hope that we can start weaving non-violence into all of our rhetoric, both as an explicit admission of a tactic, and as an opportunity to connect with others across the political spectrum. We can only join together if we can learn to stop being violent with one another.

I hope we can hear that. Because we need to connect. Connecting through non-violence can be a powerful coalition building tool.

As Jim Morrison said, "They've got the guns, but we've got the numbers." But we need to hear each other first before we get the numbers.

And I wanted to talk to about that too. About how it is we can get together, or more specifically what it is specifically keeping us apart.

It's really no surprise that here again, the crux is violence. Violence, not just in deed, but more insidiously, in thought also. The insidious part is that, violence in the mind, makes us entirely predictable and therefore more controllable.

You see the State is an Authoritarian structure. Authority rules by a game that Marshall Rosenberg affectionately calls, "Who's Right?"

"Who's Right?" is an important game in which the top 1% uses violence to control large groups of people. I mean, there's only so much violence at the disposal of the few at the top of the pyramid.

"Who's Right?" judiciously rations the violence by setting up the following rules of the game: Rule #1) The Authority is always 'Right'. Rule #2) If you're wrong you've got only two choices: submit or rebel.

Take a moment to reflect on this and evaluate if it isn't true. You can see it in all social relationships where Power is at play; where, by virtue of one's position, one's needs are assumed to ecclipse another's.

Chew on that a while. What I want to point out in the meantime is that whether you submit or rebel...you're serving the Authority. How? Well, the submission option is obvious. The rebellion option maybe not as obvious, until one remembers that the ultimate Authority has violence at its disposal.

Might makes Right, remember? Rebellion transforms dissent into the very form the State is most adept at dealing with: open hostility. The minute you pick that option you're already outgunned. I was serious when I told you I was concerned about the police out there.

“Who’s Right” is the thought process by which dissent can be effectively contained without ever threatening the true balance of power. Real societal change, “is not reached…through an assessment of the rights and wrongs of the issues at stake.” [emphasis added]. It is achieved through “an assessment of the absolute and relative power situations of the contending groups.”

These two quotations immediately above are from Gene Sharp’s From Dictatorship to Democracy, a book that looks at the characteristics of successful non-violent revolutions. Sharp outlines that nonviolence opens a new door unavailable to those caught in the submit/rebel paradigm. In assessing the “relative power situations of relative groups,” Sharp reiterates the State’s uncontested advantage in violent conflict, and identifies nonviolent dissent as “the most powerful means available to those struggling for freedom.”

Gene Sharp’s writings were influential in the formation of the Serbian student organization Otpor! (Resistance!) which was instrumental in the removal of Slobodan Milošević from power in Bosnia in 2000. Significantly, the leadership of Otpor guided and trained the ultimately successful April 6th resistance movement in Egypt that removed President Hosnai Mubarek from power in 2011 - from which Occupy! draws as least part of its inspiration.

What always becomes obvious at protest events is that the police aren't there to protect you. They're there to protect the Authority. That much should be plain, and I'd point out that scaling the scenario up doesn't change the dynamic. The State is not there to protect you. It's there to protect the top 1% - the Authority - because they're scared. They're afraid of what will happen to them if all of a sudden, they lose power and are no longer "Right."

What I hope to impress is that this way of thinking - "Who's Right?" - is cultural. We are all trained in it. Even the top 1%. The top 1% is scared. That's why the police are out.

The hard part is that, much as we'd like to, resorting to violence is not going to get us anywhere. We will have to resist the temptation to exact political retribution. We're going to need all the help we can get to resist such a temptation. We're going to need each other.

The first step is to start listening to each other not with the ears we've been trained with. The ears given to us by the Authority, to hear who is 'wrong' and therefore deserves to be punished. We need to start hearing each other based on our needs.

We all have common universal needs: food, shelter, connection. I applaud Occupy! precisely because people are attempting to satisfy their need to be heard. What comes next and how we can support each other is crucial and potentially electric.

It all comes back to the question of how can regular people get what they need without resorting to violence, be it physical, political, or intellectual.

For everyone's sake, I hope we can begin to connect in this regard.

"... though you wouldn't know it by the lack of media coverage ..."

I've seen that thought or complaint a lot about the lack of media coverage. But my thought is, why care about the media? You don't need the media when something called the Internet exists. And if the media did pay attention, the protesters would complain about the media's slanted coverage. And aren't the mainstream media outlets owned by big corporations?

dbw8906 that was an excellent letter! I agree with much of it and have been pondering this for a long time myself. So far the Rosanne Barr's of the world are not in any form of leadership of Occupy. She gets attention because of her celebrity. If fact they pride themselves of NOT having any formal leaders. This is an organic movement. I think the problem with the Tea Party is they allowed themselves to be associate with large media conglomerates in both cable and radio. The big money prostituted the message driving many people away including myself. I think the OWS and original Tea Party have much in common and it would be best if both sides could at least hear each other out before making enemies of each other.

Some occupywallst.org threads from the past week:

• The Corporate Media Black Out
• Screw the mainstream media!!!
• The Mass Media’s Disgraceful Coverage of Occupy Wall Street
• Mainstream Media not reporting the NUMBER of people
• Media smear of OWS
• The Media Twist!!!
• Horrible, offensive reporting by CNN

Complaining about no media coverage and then complaining about getting media coverage.

Great post,dbw.

The sentiment of the letter has been something that I have been wondering about. The position of the Occupy! movement is murky and amorphous, but, at the base, the Occupy! movement has a lot in common with other groups. That base is "SOMETHING about America is seriously fucked." I think libertarians, occupy!, tea party, etc would disagree on what that something is. But, until there is a united front, these groups will independently be seen as the extreme fringe and their voices disregarded.

I'm sure I'd disagree with aspects of Occupy!, but I have tremendous respect for anyone who protests against the parts of America that they believe are broken.

HA!

The Onion: Occupy Wall Street Growing

"Finally, something to do in the Financial District after 6 p.m."

Wolfman I agree that the OCW movement has no leader but if you don't do a good job of shouting down the Rosannes and Van Jones (you know White people are responsible for pollution) the movement we will not gain the traction needed. We have to tell the people who wish to use this movement as political fodder, to raise their Q Scores, or who want to just "stick it to the man" to sit down and STFU. You can not have legisitasy while you are looking to place heads on sticks or creating class warfare.

The Libertarian Party didn't do a good enough job in telling to Tea Party to not piss all over and bastardize our message. I agree with several of the things the Tea Party stands for but it was morphed in to Pappy's Republican Party which does nothing to address civil liberties, the wars, or trade relations. Solving union contracts does nothing while the rest of the country goes to hell in a hand basket and we wipe our asses with the Constitution. The whole ballot processes pisses me off because Ron Paul automatically has to run as a Republican because he can't even get on the ballot in most States as a Libertarian, so he get's lumped in with those "evil Tea Party" people.

I'm gonna go down there on Tuesday afternoon and try my best to be open minded because something needs to be done, but I will not support storming the "rich mans gates" or hating people because they drive nice cars. Revolution can't be spelled with out love.

Sorry as You can not have "legitimacy", stupid phone and even stupider spelling skills.

Our demands will be decided as a group in daily meetings of the General Assembly. Be a part of the process. October 10th at 11am in Levis Square, Downtown Toledo.

Just to clarify, is this group planning to occupy Levis Square indefinitely, beginning on October 10th at 11 am? (I'm presuming so, given the "daily meetings.")

Gotta love how these people--who I guarantee you 98% of which are Obama supporters when it comes right down who they would actually vote for--are protesting "the rich"; yet, they turn a blind eye to stories like this:

Nearly $500K to send Michelle, family to Africa

How much does it cost taxpayers to fly First Lady Michelle Obama, her two daughters and her mother, a niece and a nephew, a hairstylist and makeup artists to South Africa and Botswana to give a few speeches, meet Nelson Mandela, and enjoy a safari on a private game preserve?

Nearly half a million dollars, according to documents obtained by Judicial Watch via the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) concerning Obama's June 21-27 journey.

Judicial Watch said the U.S. Air Force provided a C-32 - a Boeing 757 modified by the military for the purpose of flying big-wigs around the world - to fly the First Lady and her entourage to and from Africa, at a cost of $4245,142. Another $928.44 was listed as the cost of providing 192 meals for the 21 people who made the trip.

The Obama daughters were listed on the manifest as "senior staff."

$500k for a vacation at this time in this country? With mom, the kids, the stylists, a niece, a nephew, etc. Seriously, lefties--how can you possibly support this and at the same time protest "the rich"?

Yet these tools on Wall Street Call For Totalitarian Government, Re-Election Of Obama. Brilliant. Nobody disagrees that there are problems and the unbridled risk taking (backed by the "too big to fail policy") is causing many people to say "that's not correct", both on the right and left.

But the people doing the "protesting"...and even worse, the "talking"...are not "the 99%". They aren't even the 1% of thinking people. This country is not socialist-bent, does not want to suspend elections (NC governor), does not want to see Obama become the next 4-term Roosevelt, most certainly does not want a "totalitarian" government (jesus effing christ--we fought AGAINST totalitarians in WWII!), etc.--no matter how loud you shout.

I don't agree with everything in the above linked article, but here are some of the more salient points. Taking a page from the wolfman playbook, here's a cut 'n' paste of some of the more salient paragraphs:

The ignorance displayed in these interviews knows no bounds. The protesters just don’t get it. They are calling for the government to use force to impose their ideas, all in the name of bringing down corporations who they don’t realize have completely bought off government regulators. Corporations and government enjoy a mutually beneficial relationship – getting one to regulate the other is asinine and only hurts smaller businesses who are legitimately trying to compete in a free market economy that barely exists.

The zeal for totalitarian government amongst some of the “protesters” is shocking. One sign being carried around read, “A government is an entity which holds the monopolistic right to initiate force,” which seems a little ironic when protesters complain about being physically assaulted by police in the same breath.

One woman interviewed by Kokesh also announces her intention to help Obama to capture a second term. How can a self-proclaimed Occupy Wall Street protester simultaneously support the man whose 2008 campaign was bankrolled by Wall Street, whose 2012 campaign is reliant on Wall Street to an even greater extent, and whose cabinet was filled with Wall Street operatives?

OHT that is my fear, that these people still believe Obama is the populous hero and ignore the crony capitalism & bailouts because he has a D next to his name and he excluded them from Obamacare, but I'm willing to go listen.

I want massive change also, but I'm not willing to trash the Constitution to get it.

So I have been paying attention to the Occupy movement, and I think I have some idea of what they stand for, even if no one within the group has formally defined it. If you are with the movement, feel free to adopt any or all of these points if they make sense.

-Reduce or eliminate corporate and upper class tax loopholes
-Congress should not be bailing out corporations
-Citizens United was wrongly decided, and Congress should react
-Reduce, eliminate, or increase the transparency of corporate lobbying of representatives
-Higher transparency and accountability for financial institutions
-Higher transparency or elimination of the Federal Reserve
-Democrats (Congress and President alike) have let them down, but they like liberal policy

I can see the movement being hijacked by "progressive" groups that are just really fronts for the Democrats, in an attempt to diffuse the situation and salvage as many D votes as possible. It will be interesting to see if this movement grows by next November, I would like to see some Democrats elected that aren't just going to tow the party line.

A thread from last week that has over 300 comments: Proposed list of demands

dbw8906 somehow the divide must be filled. The Rosannes and Van Jones are always looking for a camera spewing their thoughts, only to be thought of as some sort of self appointed leaders. They don't represent me and most of those I associate with. We see the potshots of disunity already taking form to divide what could very well help all of us. So ingrained is the mainstream hate mongers that this movement is already under attack by those that have to result in partisan nitpicking. I think Americans are intolerant of most people that don't look or act like them making any movement hard to be accepted. Got to go, see you October 10th.

Oct 1, 2011 NY Times - Occupying, and Now Publishing, Too

PDF version of the Occupied Wall Street Journal, sort of. It's a PDF of photos of the printed paper.

A few interesting links:

• From Blackout to Circus: The Evolution of Media Coverage at Occupy Wall Street
• Smartypants Occupy Wall Street protester makes Fox News interviewer look stupid, interview doesn't air
• 'American Autumn' - MoveOn.org is trying to use us to push the democratic agenda
• Dear MoveOn.org, Fuck Off!
• Let's discuss why the OWS protestors are criticized as 'anti-capitalism' and how to change this perception
• Dennis Kucinich - 'I support the #OccupyWallStreet Protesters'
• Unofficial - 7 Core Demands from the Occupy Wall Street Movement
• October 5 #OccupyWallStreet Union March From Foley Square on Wall Street

Here is an unofficial list of demands reported by some lazy and gullible media. That thread of demands with nearly 600 comments was created on September 26 at occupywallst.org, and it became a bit popular in the media on October 4 and October 5. That thread, however, is one of many "Demands" threads created at occupywallst.org, but for some reason, the mentally feeble media have cherry-picked that one thread.

The media complain about blogs and message boards posting trash, yet the media publish a story based upon one thread at a new message board that allows anyone to post, even those spreading misinformation. That's journalism?

Here's the link to the forum at occupywallst.org
http://occupywallst.org/forum

That webpage or forum page lists every thread created since July.

While you are viewing that forum page in your Web browser, click Ctrl-F and search that Web page on the word "demands," and you should see over 60 matches. Drop the 's' and search the page on "demand," and you should see over 100 matches. Several dozen threads have been created related to demands.

'Occupy Wall Street' a nearly all white endeavor

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/10/occupy_wall_street_a_nearly_all_white_endeavor.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I'm gonna ask about the evil corporate over lords who soaked up 22 million from the hard working middle class of Toledo when I get there. It will tell the true picture of this group.

I'm willing to budge and vote for increased domestic spending if we cut out dumping money all over the world and up and down Wall Street, but you can't say "down with the man" to one CEO and hand out checks to the other.

END PUBLIC MONEY FOR ALL COMPANIES!

From that story:

I should play the lottery today. On the Occupy Wall Street video feed this morning, I saw 50% of those African-Americans. What are the odds of that happening with such a short, random view of their video feed?

jr, I could see where the demographics could get slanted (in either direction) depending on the source of the photos/video.

If there were 6 blacks in 40 photos, then that would be ~15%. This is actually more than, or equal to, the 10-15% black composition of America. Why is this a problem?

RIIIIIIIGHHHT.

Find me a Teabagger protest picture with six black people in it. Go on. (And they have to be real live people, six pictures of Obama won't do.)

If there were 6 blacks in 40 photos, then that would be ~15%. This is actually more than, or equal to, the 10-15% black composition of America. Why is this a problem?

Wouldn't it depend on how many people were in the photos? 6 black people in 40 photos of 2-3 people per photo would be very different than 6 black people in 40 photos of large crowds?

(Not arguing the sentiment, just the underlying math.)

AC - find me this at a tea party rally

“Occupy Wall Street” Protester Spews Vile Anti-Semitism: “The Jews Control Wall Street, Fuck The Jews, Fuck Israel”…

http://weaselzippers.us/2011/10/05/occupy-wall-street-protester-spews-vile-anti-semitism-the-jews-control-wall-street-fuck-the-jews-fuck-israel/

Idiots on both extreme sides of this debate. Tea Party thinks the war is free and OWS thinks they deserve everyone else's money.

All I have to do is point to all the comparisons of Obama to Hitler and Glenn Beck's Nazi Tourette's.

But um anyway:
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/20556/ohio-tea-parties-host-open-anti-semite-nazi-defender-israel-hater/
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/11/17/130880/texas-tea-antisemitic/
http://hipsterjew.com/2010/09/17/jews-join-the-tea-party/
http://hurryupharry.org/2009/04/29/buchanan-demjanjuk-and-antisemitism/
http://www.alternet.org/news/148946/%22we_are_at_war%22%3A_how_militias,_racists_and_anti-semites_found_a_home_in_the_tea_party_/?page=entire
http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2009/11/06/1008998/njdcgop-must-condemn-tea-party-signs
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/2010/03/make-that-the-nas-tea-party.html
http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2009/09/13/pictures-from-the-tea-party-protests/

Amazing how the Teabaggers are not only anti-Semitic, but reverse anti-Semitic at the same time (painting Obama as worse than Hitler).

Who are we protesting at this event?

Is it great American icons like billionaire Steve Jobs where there is no public record of him every giving to a charity?

Is it great American companies who have billions like Apple and yet the CEO Steve Jobs cancelled Apple's philanthropic arm.

Why do we want to protest the legacy of someone like Steve Jobs and Apple who created jobs, some of the most amazing American products, and was a true American visionary and leader?

Steve Jobs and Apple clearly fall in the 1%.

Weren't the green plastic frogs supposed to make people like being in Toledo?

Just found the link to http://occupytoledo.org/ on another site and came here to relay. I miss so much by not checking the #politics section of this site.

ToledoRamblingMan aksed "Who are we protesting at this event?"

Wall St. and the too big to fail banks...try to keep up.

As for Steve Jobs - what does he have to do with any of this?

As always John Stewart nails it -

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/jon-stewart-lampoons-tea-party-criticism-of-occupy-wall-street-video.php?ref=fpb

Thanks. It doesn't hurt to repeat such links, I guess. But that link was added to the top of this thread on October 1 after that site launched.

If you're curious, their other links listed at the top of this page include their Twitter and Facebook pages:

• http://twitter.com/occupytoledo
• http://www.facebook.com/pages/Occupy-Toledo/258979817473913

Mr G. - "As always John Stewart nails it" nobody always nails it, thats following a cult of personality because you like the guy. No better than the tea party who hangs on every word outta Limbaugh. But he did make a decent point.

Well I had the pleasure to talk too 11 U of T students who are very stoked for the Occupy Toledo rally and planned on attending. 9 outta 11 (one of them was going because his girl friend was "into it") blamed the Republicans for EVERYTHING, when I brought up the fact that Obama has flat failed our lied about his campaign promises they told me I was a "Bush lover". I asked about the Chrysler Toledo 22 million dollar tax abatement they said it was "good for the city", when I asked how it was any different than the bank bailout they claimed "lots of little people work for Chrysler" but they had no answer when I brought up the almost 300k people who work in banking (mostly middle class tellers and such) they had no retort.

They where in no way supportive of a 3rd party candidate and said that Obama should have more control and be able to "operate more freely". When I brought up the Constitution they began to speak about the fairness of the Geneva Convention... sigh.

I'm still going to attend the rally and try to stay open minded because we need change, but everyday I feel more and more this is a masked foot team for the Obama campaign. If so that's fine, people have that right, just don't try to hide it in in a "change" message.

Sensor - From occupy Toledo.

In the meantime, neoliberalism has taken away any federal oversight, resulting in banks that are "too big to fail" and big box marts that set sub-standard wages for employees both here and abroad. Simultaneously, since 1980 we have seen an increasing gap between the middle class and the “super” rich to the point where the 400 richest people have roughly half of the country’s wealth. All the while, we have been conditioned to express anger at those who "take advantage of the system" – the welfare recipients, those on unemployment, those who cannot provide for themselves. We have been carefully taught that these are the folks to whom we give our hard-earned tax dollars, and "no more forced charity!" becomes the cry of the hard-working fiscal conservative. In truth, the "super" rich have pulled a classic bait and switch: they take our money, and we blame the poor (and then we become the poor). With the Supreme Court ruling in Citizens v. United giving unprecedented power to corporations to buy the executive and legislative branches of our national government, the voice of the people has been essentially squelched. The Occupy movement is in response to these injustices.

Therefore, it would seem appropriate for you to protest against companies like Apple and individuals like Steve Jobs.

Lets not pretend this is just against the banks.

dbw--those college kids are probably having wet dreams be a part of this event:

Nationwide college walkout planned

Probably for the best--doesn't sound like they are learning much anyway.

I wonder if any of them...who are advocating that Obama become more like a dictator...were supportive of GW Bush when he joked about being a dictator. What he said then is essentially what they are advocating now.

"Therefore, it would seem appropriate for you to protest against companies like Apple and individuals like Steve Jobs." - No Steve Jobs made things that make people happy, and the hipster claim him as a forward thinking visionary. Even though the working conditions at his shops in CHINA are so people people off themselves at a record pace. He was a complete ASSHOLE CAPITALIST, he often forced people to work through nights and weekends, fired you if you didn't want to bleed for him, and cared more about profit over people every time, denied a unwed child and skipped out on child support payment. His on autobiography(which is a good read)states this. Steve Jobs was a complete douche bag, but he made it easy to waste time on the internet.

You have to be this way if you wish to be successful at the level he wished to be. There is so such thing as a gentle billionaire.

InfoWars.com: Occupy Wall Street ‘Stands In Solidarity’ With Obama Front Group

Fears expressed by some that the ‘Occupy Wall Street’ movement is being hijacked by the Democratic Party establishment have intensified after the official OWS website announced that it “stands in solidarity” with MoveOn.org, a lobbying group for the Wall Street-backed Obama administration.

“Join us on Wednesday to create a huge show of support for anti-Wall Street actions nationwide. Together, we’ll add hundreds of thousands of voices expressing our solidarity with the protests at Occupy Wall Street and across the country targeting the bankers who wrecked our economy,” states MoveOn.org’s website.

Yes – the very same bankers – Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase and Citigroup prime amongst them – who financed the Obama campaign, the same campaign vehemently supported by MoveOn.org.

Why does Occupy Wall Street’s support for MoveOn.org represent a problem? Because MoveOn.org is little more than a lobbying front for the Obama administration, which itself is a creature of Wall Street.

Why is the website that has positioned itself as the central hub for Occupy Wall Street activists announcing its support for groups which are little more than Barack Obama lobbying fronts? Wall Street spent millions financing Obama’s path to the White House and are supporting him to an even greater extent in 2012.

Some have argued that it is not fair to cite postings on OccupyWallst.org as representative of the movement’s character or goals. However, this is not a forum posting by an individual, it is prominently displayed on the front page of the website claiming it represents OWS.

Either the Occupy Wall Street website represents an accurate reflection of the sentiments of the protesters, that is supportive of the Wall Street-financed Obama administration and its lobbying front groups such as MoveOn.org, or the message has been hijacked by these very groups.

http://consumerist.com/2011/10/signs-in-chicago-board-of-trade-windows-say-we-are-the-1.html

The war is on.

http://consumerist.com/2011/10/signs-in-chicago-board-of-trade-windows-say-we-are-the-1.html

The war is on.

Ah yes InfoWars.com, a teabagger/rumor mill site filled with bullshit.

What are they using to back up their claim? NOTHING. They just merely claim the banks financed Obama and MoveOn.org is a front group for the banks.

I can claim the sky is purple and water is dry, and write up a nice story and post it on the Internets saying such, but that doesn't make it true.

Go get some critical thinking and analysis skills there, Skippy, and don't bother reporting back until they're above elementary school level.

They're not Apple's shops in China. They're owned and run by third-party suppliers, kinda like how all those "Toledo-built Jeeps" are made from parts made for Chrysler by other companies. If one of those suppliers runs a plant that treats its workers like shit, is it the CEO of Chrysler's fault? Granted, they can choose not to do business with that supplier in the future...

Go get some critical thinking and analysis skills there, Skippy, and don't bother reporting back until they're above elementary school level.

Your "revolution" is funded by the very people you protest, douchebag.

Why don't you blow it out your ass, you bought-and-paid-for, slogan-chanting, shouting at the moon but saying nothing, santorum runoff little piece of insignificant bacterium.

You wanna flame. Let's fucking go...

I can claim the sky is purple and water is dry, and write up a nice story and post it on the Internets saying such, but that doesn't make it true.

Oh, and when you respond, make sure you reference more of those completely "balanced" sites you love, like thinkprogress, liberalvaluesblog, hipsterjew, etc.

I notice your posts always seem to come 'round in the afternoon...just about the time high school lets out...

oldhometown, I don't understand why you would read a second-hand report from InfoWars.com when you can simply read the thread at the site referenced in the article.

Oct 4, 2011 - occupywallst.org - #OccupyWallStreet Union March From Foley Square on Wall Street - 399 comments

And you can read comments in that thread by others about associating with groups like MoveOn.org, such as these comments from that thread:

• Do NOT allow these liberal groups to infiltrate your movement. Always remember that unions and groups like MoveOn.org are little more than extensions of the Democratic Party, and even if their individual members might support your actual principles, as organizations they will do their best to fit you into their idea of a pro-Obama liberal protest.
• Do NOT become the Liberal Tea Party! If Obama supports you, continue to criticize his failures to help the middle class. And, conversely, if Republicans somehow support you, do not let up your push against them. Letting down your guard for even a moment will allow this whole movement to fall back into the rut of tit-for-tat two-party politics. Organizations and institutions, no matter their affiliation, are not your friends, as they will all drag you back into the world that you are trying to avoid. Accept the help of their individual members, but reject the help of the organizations themselves.
• It's a mixed message. I thought OWS was going to remain non-partisan. And you cannot be friends with moveon.org, Obama or any Wall Street puppet. if you are going to send a message you must not compromise. Now re-do the mission statement. or you will look foolish for defending and aligning yourself with the group that is making this country worse. make the correction so I can support you. You listed many groups that rely on wall st funding. Change it.
• I am watching the media constantly associate this movement with "Michael Moore, The AFL-CIO, MoveOn.org, ect...". Now I have no problem with these groups or people standing in solidarity with The 99%, but you have to understand something: The media uses these groups/people as "triggers" to turn "conservatives" away from any idea, or cause that they support.
• We must extremely careful about announcing ANY association beyond that of The 99%. Anyone is invited, but no one should be celebrated for joining our cause. I am already watching the media successfully turn Americans who would join us against us, by the very use of these triggers.
• This is NOT a "Liberal Uprising" as the media is attempting to paint us as.
• They can march. But why do they have to be recognized? It's about the people, not their stupid fucking union or special interest group. Fuck that.
• It's a co-opt/hijack by the Left. Don't be tricked by the left/right, Democrat/Republican paradigm. It is fake. They are all the same.
• These organizations don't have to be acknowledged. The exact same thing happened with the Tea Party and the Republicans.
• We've got to bring unions away from the Democrates and back to democracy, not bring us towards the Dems. But there's no way forward without workplace democracy and organizing (unions).
• I am all for the unions getting a fair shake. But I don't think it should become OWS (sponsored by the AFL-CIO). The media will have a field day with this and then they will turn the people who watch that shit against us, when in fact we are protesting against a lot of the things they also agree are big problems.
• I completely agree with your hesitance about OWS aligning with these groups and getting co-opted and neutralized. Particularly, lobbying groups like moveon.org worry me because they will attempt to woo us by giving us exposure and launching us into the spotlight but will try to harness whatever power we generate in the meantime.
• the one organization that I have the most trouble with is MoveOn.

For all kinds of reactions, visit Reddit at http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywallstreet

• It's official. MoveOn.org is trying to use us to push the democratic agenda

• An open letter and warning from a former tea party movement adherent to the Occupy Wall Street movement. - 593 comments

And you may see a Reddit post that points to this image that was probably not mentioned in the infowars article.

You wanted examples of Teabagger anti-Semitism, I provided them. Sorry that the "mainstream media" doesn't provide them more readily - but if they did, you'd go off on how the MSM is all liberally biased.

Funny thing but since the Kochs et. al. are behind your little "Teabagger Party", if your accusation is true then you have NO grounds to talk.

JR I wish everything in your post was true, I really really do because I would be in with 2 feet. But when I talk with those prospective Occupiers it doesn't ring true. Van Jones & Micheal Moore are not voting for a 3rd party candidate and everyone knows that, when they let them lead and speak at the rallies it gives the appearance they are you leaders. If OWS doesn't tell them to get off the talk show circuit and to stop talking for them, a natural association will be made. Nobody elected Bachmann or Santorum as the "head of the tea party" but since the people who had a good honest intent to return our government back to a Constitutional Republic did nothing to shut them up John Q Public associated them.

I know it's my Republican roots showing through but I can't get into bed with Micheal "I hate rich people but sued for a lager share of profits from 911" Moore.

We can't HAVE third-party candidates because the fucking electoral system is set up against them.

First off Ohio recognizes only two political parties, and to get on the ballot without being one of them you have to jump through hoops and get an inordinate number of people to sign your nominating petition, and all that crazy shit.

And second, we have First-Past-the-Post elections, which means pretty much everyone has to vote for one of two people they don't like in order to keep the other asshole from winning. If we had some form of Instant Runoff Voting where I can rank the guy who I really like and whose views most match mine as #1, and a less appealing person #2, and the pinko commies, Teabagger and neocon fucks, etc. etc. at the bottom, and everyone else can rank their picks in the same fashion, we could actually get people in office that sort of match what the people really want, instead of getting highly partisan jerkoffs elected who turn government into a clusterfuck.

Third, if we can throw out all the campaign funding laws and make it into "unlimited donations from individual human beings to other individual human beings, state or national-level offical party organizations only, with full disclosure of amount, name, and address of donor", it might even work. That way, one of our esteemed members won't get in trouble for taking money from a third party and donating it in his/her name... since there would be no cap on individual donations... and "corporate" donations are not allowed, so the corporation's "owners" can either legally pay their people more (which gets taxed as income!) or they can pass it under the table and get popped for fraud and massively sued in shareholder lawsuits.

How about we ban all donations and CSPAN would be the only media outlet for campaigns. Any coverage from any other media including fox and msnbc, would have to be strictly measured for duration as considering it a campaign contribution. Now I know it would never fly because there is big bucks in those campaign adds, but it would be nice to wish.

Tea Party got co-opted by Fox News and the Kochs et. al. very early on and the Teabaggers were too stupid to realize they were being used. Tea Party was supposed to be against the bank bailouts, but quickly mutated into a super-far-right-wing-batshit-crazy fest where you Teabaggers were protesting TAX HIKES ON THE PEOPLE WHO GOT BAILED OUT. And they got bailed out because all the halfway decent Republicans (the actual reasonable small government and states' rights, conservatism means spend responsibly and make sure income is greater than spending, U.S. stay the fuck out of foreign bullshit, conservatism also means conservation of the environment and natural resources Republicans) got tossed out or drowned out by the Rush Limbaugh/Newt Gingrich/Karl Rove/Dick Cheney NeoCon fuckheads who ratcheted the insanity up and removed regulations on financial institutions and failed to enforce the regulations that were left, and totally rubber-stamp-approved any and all mergers, buyouts, and so on that let banks become "too big to fail".

Let me just point out who was responsible for it:

Let me just point out that before you go "BUT BUT CLINTON!", it was a REPUBLICAN CONGRESS and they had effectively neutered Clinton with the whole blowjob bullshit. On the other hand it passed with a veto-proof majority, probably because Congress was bought by the financial sector back then too, so the BUT BUT CLINTON defense doesn't go very far either way.

OWS at least here in the early stages is TRYING to warn people how to avoid being co-opted.

Oct 4, 2011 occupytoledo.org forum post titled Rough draft for 'What is Occupy Toledo?'

Occupy Toledo is a nonviolent assembly of individuals who will all gather in Levis Square, downtown Toledo. We will gather both in solidarity with the occupy movements in New York City and across the country, and to create an intentional community with our own purpose and action. We will continue our occupation indefinitely. We have no current set goals or demands as they will be determined during the occupation. However, we have many commonalities in our motivation for occupation, such as social and economic justice for the working class and ending corporate tyranny.

During our occupation, we will have regular meetings called the “General Assembly”, where the decisions that affect the group will be whole. Some examples include what our purpose is, what actions we will take, and what our policies or rules will be. General Assembly meetings are open to everyone and are inclusive of all individuals and viewpoints. Decision making will be consensus based and everyone present will have an opportunity to voice their opinions or concerns. Subcommittees will be formed to deal with issues that require more specific attention of a smaller group.

We are individuals from all backgrounds and walks of life. We are a diverse group intent on changing the world for the better. We will Occupy Toledo until we have an economic system that works for everyone, not just the privileged. We are beginning an uprising. We are the 99%.

Oct 6, 2011 occupytoledo.org forum post titled Occupy Toledo subcommittees and their descriptions (rough draft)

Legal committee:
The legal subcommittee deals with legal issues surrounding the action. It's primary goal is to research what laws which will hinder or support the occupation. For example, fire laws, electricity usage laws, and the usage and speakers. The committee will attempt to gain permission from the City of Toledo for the occupation. It will also be responsible for educating occupiers and the media on the “do's and don'ts” at the action itself. Training occupiers on how they should behave in case of arrest also falls under their duties. If this is the case, that people get arrested, the committee should also have steps in place to be taken. Formulating a list of lawyers and organizing funds to hire them to fight for the release of arrested occupiers should also be done. A contingency plan in the case of a police presence in Levis Square, like an alternate site, should be decided on. Finally, it will fall on this committee to make sure no laws are broken and that the protest is peaceful.

Outreach committee:
This group will be primarily responsible for contacting different organizations and individuals to spread the message about Occupy Toledo. They will also be tasked with formulating different strategies to organize events to raise money and funds for the occupation. Contacting different Unions, Organizations, and intellectuals to participate will also be necessary. Members of this committee will also be responsible for contacting the media to spread the message of our actions. A live feed will also be set up if possible, and members will be responsible for obtaining and setup of the equipment. They will also ensure photo and video taping to spread word and document the event.

Logistics committee:
This group is responsible for setting up and maintaining an information booth on site. There should be at least four items here: An open letter from Occupy Toledo; A safety rules pamphlet; Directions to accessible rest rooms; list of people to be contacted in case of arrest. They will also manage donated money and supplies for food, water, and other community items. Also to be managed is the garbage, compost, and sanitation plans for the site. Transportation for some individuals or actions may need to also be arranged. This committee will also provide help and install camps and other items to keep occupiers warm. They will also bottom line for ensuring security at the site, especially after dark.

Social Networking and web committee:
This group will set up and development and maintenance of the http://OccupyToledo.org website, as well as maintaining a presence on social networking sites. They will research other avenues to bring more people to the occupation and keep them involved in our action. Another important task is the monitoring and reporting of what is going on in other occupations. This group will also monitor any media coverage and new laws that can possibly hinder the continuation of the occupation.

I'd be more likely to extend credibility to this group under two conditions:

1) replace "Occupation" with "Movement".

2) Keep the unions out of it. they're just as at fault as the capitalist financiers that put the Citizen at this point.

This is a movement allegedly based on "Individual" and not "Group".

And in this "Global Economy", Unions are as useless as tits on a frog...

Troubling discussion going on here in Toledo. Some of the local Tea Party faithful are talking of some sort of disruption at Occupy Toledo. They have not listened to the peaceful nature of OWS and are looking for trouble. Occupy Toledo needs a strategy for dealing with outside planned disruption.

Maybe they can get some SCIU purple shirts to come around.

Do you actually have any evidence of these Tea Party discussions or is this just another one of your drive-by accusations?

I could be wrong, but I'm betting on the latter.

"Occupy Toledo needs a strategy for dealing with outside planned disruption." - Wolfie you mean like other people expressing and using their First Amendment rights? I didn't know OWS owned the Freedom of Speech. Wasn't the whole point of this thing to get people thinking and talking about the situation we are in? Don't the 99% say we are all in this together and everyone's opinion counts?

No AC Clinton was neutered because he LIED TO THE NATION ON TV. Isn't OWS's mission to bring accountability? I don't care if it's about getting a hummer or buying Hummers for the troops we must demand honesty from our President. How many things is it ok for the President to lie about? Your post are exactly why I am skeptical of the OWS movement, they don't seem to want the opinion of the 99% of America, only the Democratic ones. Your really demonstrate the love I keep hearing about from the 99%'ers for your fellow country men by calling them teabaggers and batshit crazy, your tone and voice is what hear from the OWS crowd and it is exactly why I can't buy into it. Not once in your rant do you mention the crony capitalism of the Obama admin, the building up of the war machine, Obama's crackdown on civil liberties, operation Fast and Furious, and the multitude of failure from this admin. I thought both sides of the isle where responsible for this problem? Wait I forgot Obama stands in the middle? Maybe above the isle? Let me guess Libertarians where responsible for Solyndra and the Green Party is keeping Gitmo open too huh? People like you reinforce that this is just a campaign team for Obama. I actually hope they put people like you are the front of the movement so the rest of the nation can see what OWS is really about.

Ha even Huffpo thinks this is being hijacked by the uber Left and there is no cross party cooperation.

"Yet as I walked through the #OccupyWallSt protest Wednesday, and asked people about such cross-partisanship, I was not encouraged. There is an anger and frustration among those on the Left. They feel they've tried compromise before. It got us this. They're not interested in more of this. They want something different. They want change. The sort of change they can really believe in." ---- But they will all vote for Obama... sigh

"It means instead a constitutional cross-partisanship: The recognition that however much we disagree about substantive issues, we have to be able to agree about the system within which we work out those substantive disagreements. That however much we disagree as Democrats and Republicans, there has to be a foundation of agreement as citizens -- about at the very least the system within which disagreement gets resolved." --- Could be the best thing I've ever read at Huffpo

I'm speaking just for myself, but I couldn't agree with that paragraph or that article more. I feel like Occupy Wall Street and Occupy Together could be a real chance for different types of people to join together and change our broken political system. I hope to meet you down there, dbw.

No drive by just fact. I talk with many different people on a daily basis. From some of my libertarians friends they seem to think its a socialist movement and they feel they must protect our way of life. Right or wrong I think Occupy Toledo should have some strategy for dealing with the unreasonable.

"should have some strategy for dealing with the unreasonable." like concentration camps? Re-education centers for those who don't agree? I understand you don't want anyone stealing the spot light, but any counter protester has the same right as OWS does to show up, not matter how much that rubs you the wrong way? This movement doesn't own free speech.

I would be willing to lay down the sword on battles over SS, Medicare, and union contracts as they are symptoms of the disease that is rotting out our Capital. We can fight about those things later, I would stand with any American that wants real change. But the Left must be willing to do the same and agree we can fight about those things later. But I will not trade being a slave to corporations into being a slave to the government, still a slave.

We will never truly stand in solidarity about social issues and maybe we never should, but I don't have a lot of hope when everyone I meet involved with OWS has AC's attitude. If middle of the road people show up with an open ear to only be called Tea Tards and bat shit crazy this movement will die off quickly. Remember more than Union employees are out of work.

But the union only care about union workers being unemployed the rest are scabs that dont pay union dues.

1.) I read this piece today and it's about the best I've seen in terms of disentangling everyone's feeling that "sumptin' ain't right 'round here" from all the political bullshit, left & right.

I'm not a financial expert at all, but this guy seems to lay out the "how we got here" in a very straighforward way without taking "it's their fault--blame them" shots. Good read, I thought.

And if OWS was truly wrapped around the issues laid out in the article, even I would cut it a little more slack. But, as dbw is noting (and I'm sure will experience early next week), it seems very much like it will be co-opted, willingly or unwillingly, into an arm of "re-elect Obama"...a president fully vested and helped by Wall Street dollars.

Jeffery Snider: Occupy Wall Street Has Little Right Except For the Target

At some point in their history, the largest banks on Wall Street may have participated in a marginally capitalist system, but it has not been that way since at least the early 1990's (the transformation began in the 1960's). What the financial system has become today is one of monetarism, not capitalism. This is an entirely profound distinction that needs to be fully appreciated to unlock both long-term economic growth and a denouement for the now-monetized economy.

2.) I apologize to AC for losing my temper the other day. Sorry dude--we all lose it once in a while.

Occupy Toledo will be a peaceful protest. All others no matter who are not welcome.

Allegedly, a new sign has been erected at Levis Square.

From an Oct 9, 2011 Facebook post

These imbeciles should take a detour to D.C., and find out why all the goodies they were promised, haven't been delivered yet.

Wulf in drag

Not a Herman Cain supporter in the slightest (neo con who wants to continue to drown us in war) but he ask a pretty good question on why nobody was occupying the White House.

Yeah, why was nobody occupying the White House during the Bush years when the banks ran wild?! Oh yeah, there was all that brush that needed to be cut on the ranch in Texas....

Sure people people failing to stand up in the past should continue in people not standing up in the future. Nobody would ever learn from their mistakes :(

I heard Nixon untied the dollar from the gold standard, because nobody protested it 74 means we should shut up about the devaluation of the dollar now right? By your logic because the Occupy crowd did nothing during the Obama bailout time frame so they should all go home too?

But Bush eats babies and scarifies kittens to the devil (Dick Cheney).

From occupytoledo.org:

OK, this just reached a new level of absurdity:

Ben & Jerry's: To Those Who Occupy: We Stand With You

Ben & Jerry's. Raised a lot of money with an IPO in 1985. (a.k.a. participated in "evil" Wall Street-type activity). A company that was publicly traded as a stand-alone on the NASDAQ stock exchange until 2000 and is now traded (as part of Unilever) on the NYSE (a.k.a. "Wall Street"). A company that was sold for over $300 million dollars a decade ago "stands with" the protesters? A company that is part of a huge FOREIGN (British-Dutch) multinational corporation now stands with the occupiers?

Absurd. Utterly absurd.

And before you post it, I am well aware of Ben & Jerry's responsible corporate citizen stuff--salary cap for executives (five times lowest paid employee), limiting the IPO to Vermont residents, etc.). The "good" stuff doesn't change the facts that Ben & Jerry's--to become "the rich" and expand their business empire--used the same "evil" Wall Street methods to acquire capital (IPO) and build/maximize value to shareholders ($326 million worth as of the 2000 buyout) that they now "protest" today.

If they feel so damn "in solidarity", then they can drain the value of B&Js and distribute it to the protesters. Otherwise, STFU.

I must have missed the memo. I didnt know that an IPO was considered evil, nor was getting your company listed and traded. I thought insider trading, massive timed electronic trades that were quickly cancelled to manipulate share price, and stock and bond rating agencies that overvalued known junk securities were the evils. I'm all for the capitalist market, when its not rigged. The "Wall Street" capitalist market is a good invention as long as it operates with tranparency and fairness. As it functions today its a sucker bet for the small investor. Even the big pension funds got taken to the cleaners over overvalued mortgage securities. Get your evils striaght.

1.) I don't think making a ton money or being rich is evil, as opposed to many who are protesting.

2.) I'm with you as far as the market being cleaned up and not being "rigged". See the article I posted earlier. However, you still have a better chance of earning a return in stocks than you do in a lot of investment vehicles right now.

3.) Here's where we diverge. You don't see the slightest bit of irony in two rich faux-hippies, who raised a ton of capital on Wall Street, who sell a way-overpriced corporate product, who were bought out for over $300 million by a multinational corporation, saying they support a movement whose main signs seem to be "Eat the Rich", "Wall Street is an Organized Crime Family", "It's Not A Crisis, It's a Scam"? Ooooookkaaaayyyy...

They got theirs...$326 million. But they say the right things...give their corporation a pass on the protest. Free Ben & Jerry's for all! And most of the morons will believe that B&J churned it themselves in their little hippie haven...

Those protesting don't think making money or being rich is evil. You really should upgrade you news sources.

Quoting Krugman -
"What’s going on here? The answer, surely, is that Wall Street’s Masters of the Universe realize, deep down, how morally indefensible their position is. They’re not John Galt; they’re not even Steve Jobs. They’re people who got rich by peddling complex financial schemes that, far from delivering clear benefits to the American people, helped push us into a crisis whose aftereffects continue to blight the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens."

"Yet they have paid no price. Their institutions were bailed out by taxpayers, with few strings attached. They continue to benefit from explicit and implicit federal guarantees — basically, they’re still in a game of heads they win, tails taxpayers lose. And they benefit from tax loopholes that in many cases have people with multimillion-dollar incomes paying lower rates than middle-class families."

"This special treatment can’t bear close scrutiny — and therefore, as they see it, there must be no close scrutiny. Anyone who points out the obvious, no matter how calmly and moderately, must be demonized and driven from the stage."

Nails it...

Aaah...Krugman. Such a fair-minded, balanced fellow...what a source. </end sarcasm>. Absolutely no agenda there </no really, end sarcasm>

The Blade is up with coverage on Occupy Toledo (link )

Wolfman, dbw? Did you make the pictures?

Things are going well down here.

It's nice to see so many turned out.

Hopefully the momentum keeps up.

The crowd learning about "tickle fingers" and how to use hand signs during the assemblies. This afternoon's assembly went off without a hitch. They agree with so much of what WSPD says it's amazing. They are calling for an end to the Federal Reserve, no bailouts, smaller government, the pitfalls of a two party system, and and end to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
http://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/view.sfly?fid=91ac9c1e1a6f21e76cbbd47cbb382743
http://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/view.sfly?fid=91ac9c1e1a6f21e76cbbd47cbb382743
http://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/view.sfly?fid=91ac9c1e1a6f21e76cbbd47cbb382743

It's definitely an inclusive group because I'm positive I saw Carty there around Noon. He had his arm draped around someone. When he left, he gave a big wave goodbye to all.

Here's the group gathered for the 1:00 p.m. general assembly. I estimated 150 to 200 people of all ages. It was not overwhelmingly dominated by young people. I was surprised by the number of people over the age of 40 who attended.

I had to leave about 1:15 p.m.

Occupy Toledo is posting:

• updates at http://twitter.com/occupytoledo
• photos at http://twitpic.com/photos/OccupyToledo

They will probably be prohibited from staying after dark. But I saw one chap unload his car and carry into the square his sleeping bag, duffel bag, folding chairs, some other things, and a medium-sized trash can. He looked ready to camp. I hope he brought a radio, so he can at least listen to the Bears-Lions football game tonight, which should be a donnybrook.

I briefly spoke with one of the Toledo police officers and mentioned that I thought they were planning on camping. He said it was OK as long as they stayed on the sidewalk.

I'm not sure he's right about the Ohio laws, but I think they are going to try camping. The "Info" table provided good material on Ohio laws and how to not break them.

BTW, The police were polite and seemed disinterested.

I spoke with police officials last week. Despite laws against camping in the park police will play it by ear. Protestors have the relevant ordinances posted on the info table so they are forewarned.

According to this tweet, still over 100 people at the park at around 6:00 p.m.

And another recent tweet said:

The cops realize they're one layoff away from joining the protesters. And that while SB5 doesn't touch the cop union, there's nothing stopping the TeaOP and that Koch-sucker Kasich from removing collective bargaining from the cops in the future.

I think the decision by Toledo police to allow people to stay in the park on Monday night was more like what fred said:

"Despite laws against camping in the park police will play it by ear."

Apparently, the Occupy Toledo group must have behaved well enough on Monday afternoon in downtown Toledo that police decided to allow the group to stay in the park after dark for at least one night. And if Occupy Toledo behaves tonight and tomorrow, the police will allow the group to stay another night. And so on. But after the first bit of trouble, then I think the police will enforce all laws or ordinances.

I think this was a nice gesture by Toledo police and/or city government, and it's because Occupy Toledo earned good behavior points on Monday afternoon.

That's the word I got from the brass last week. Follow the rules and you can protest. Act like morons, get arrested. Seems fair.

It amazes me that the Occupy Toledo peaceful protest would garner so much police. When I was down there the place was swarming with police. Reminded me of the movie Blues Brothers! Damn for a peaceful gathering I've never seen this much police action when the Tea Party had their shindigs. You would think that Toledo had no money problems to throw that much police overtime at this!

Wolfie, did you ever consider the police pay attention to what goes on around the country? The reason they were there in force, is because cops know troublemakers when they see them.

Yeah, you see, when it's Teabaggers carrying signs about armed revolution ("We Came Unarmed [this time]") the Republicans and police weren't concerned a damn bit, but now that there's a pile of supposedly gun-hating pinko commie librul greenie-weenie treehugger socialist gay-marrying atheist hippies camping in parks and waving signs around, THE GOVERNMENT IS THREATENED! QUICK! CIRCLE THEM WITH FENCING AND PEPPER SPRAY THEM ALL!

Or maybe I should just go the route of saying that the Teabaggers probably have the cops outgunned between open and concealed carry and whatever they can smuggle in on their Rascal scooters and under their rolls of fat, so the cops clearly and carefully maintain a low profile to avoid setting the right-wing off.

Hmmm....

How about that so-called liberal media bias, while we're at it:

Think the red line indicates liberals searching for any dirt they can find, the blue is lack of peoples interest for 2 weeks and now trying to find what they are trying to say, which as far as I can tell no one still has a clue what they are trying to accomplish.

Swarming? I overlooked that. What time were you there? How many police officers are in a "swarm?" Provide some rough numbers.

Between 11:00 a.m. and 1:15 p.m, I only saw five to eight police officers. One stood behind me, and we were back near the building. Three or four other officers stood together to the north, well away from the group. These officers chatted with each other and with curious onlookers. They certainly did not seem intense nor were they positioned in any kind of swarming formation.

Maybe other officers were present along N. St. Clair Street or to the south that I did not see, but I think you might see more police at a high school football game.

I did not see police swarming inside the square. The Occupy Toledo twitpic photos do not show any swarms of police. You know that if police were swarming like wolfman describes, someone would have taken a photo. Maybe that photo exists somewhere.

Here are a couple tweets from early Monday afternoon:

1. Police overlooking start of event from roof of parking garage had scoped rifles for "our protection"

2. Also, police with the rifles were not TPD, most likely feds.

I overlooked that too. wolfman, is that what you mean by swarming?

Here's an Occupy Toledo photo with the caption: Police friends watching from above.

Blade story

From what I experienced at midday, the Toledo police officers backed way up and got out of the way of the demonstrators. I never got the feeling of a big police presence.

I observed citizens assembling, and I did not observe police swarming.

As someone who was there and spoke with the police Paul you should try to stick to facts. I counted 5 officers on the perimeter which hardly qualifies as a swarm. Swarm might be a word to describe the number at either of the Nazi demonstrations but not here. Look at the photos I posted and you'll see no swarms of police.

Some of the activists told me of police that were on top of some of the adjacent buildings with binoculars. When I was there at around 2:30 yesterday there were many on foot and in unmarked vehicles parked or driving by the area. Much more than what I would have thought would have attended a Tea Party rally of this size. Now I'm not an expert in these things but one would think if all where city police and I'm not sure ALL where city police that Mayor Bell would be worried of all the costs associated with this.

So it goes from a swarm to many on foot, and driving be the area. You are correct when you say you are not an expert in these things. I counted 10 officers yesterday, I counted 8 Sunday morning for the 1Matters walk for the homeless, and all we were doing was walking to the Erie St. Market.

Keep on living in that Tea Universe. Faux News was all over promoting the Tea Party when it got started... they had propaganda-pushers, er I mean correspondents at like FIVE Teabagger parties simultaneously at one point. Liberals didn't have to search for jack shit, Faux News was pushing it hard on air every minute.

Wow this place has more looser assholes than I thought. Just a bunch of idiots that don't know what they want, but if they follow everyone else like a herd of sheep something good is bound to happen. If they would put this much effort into working on their own personal problems and jobs they would be much better off. If you ask 100 people why they are there, you'll get a 100 different answers. The bottom line is; they'll blame anyone but themselves for their lot in life. Maybe next time they should think before they vote.
I told you Obama would be a loser. This is just some of the result of his change and "Yes We Can" deal.

AmericanPie...you could have just as easily described a Tea Party rally…

Photos from Oct 11 up @ http://toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/article/97127/Occupy_Toledo_photos_from_Oct_11_around_9am

Did anyone stay overnight in the park?

There were a few there when I stopped by at 4:30a, but not many.

Unfortunately there weren't many people there today when I was in the area. I was hoping to see what all the hoopla was about. I'm going to drive by again and see if the crowd since has increased.

Faux News said they live off smoked salmon and heroin. Anyone know where we can get those delivered?

bobo - that was actually a New York Post story: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/it_nyc_lam_sterdam_bmE4vlV5aDUWhBRv9IbaiK

Pretty scary to think that criminals are using the protests to hide - despicable, too.

From Maggie's link:

But as the protest ground on for a 23rd day, it was evident that there were challenges. Zuccotti Park smelled like an open sewer -- with people urinating and defecating in public.

Awesome.

And some couples have taken advantage of the free condoms distributed by organizers to do the nasty in full view of other protesters.

“It kinda makes me think of what Woodstock must have been like,” said one protester, Sarah, 19 from the Upper West Side. “I haven’t hooked up with any guys ... but one of my friends did have sex in a tarp with a guy last night.”

Mom & Dad must be so proud....so very, very proud.

“People say they are here for the cause, but the real reason is the free food,” quipped Cameron, 26, of Jersey City. “On my third day, they had smoked salmon with cream cheese. You know how much smoked salmon is a pound? Sixteen dollars. I eat better here than I do with my parents!”

Fight the power, man. Peace and love, peace and love...and salmon...

At one point yesterday, a speaker from Washington, DC, told protesters how to break out of zip ties and handcuffs in case they get collared. The protest vet, Ryan Clayton, 30, demonstrated how use a bobby pin to spring the cuffs open -- while claiming he was “not encouraging people to break out of restraints.”

Of course not...just educational purposes...totally believable...

So it's Woodstock minus the great music and brown acid, but with cops all over and better food?

When Faux News quotes the Post then you are seeing one bogus propaganda organization using the other as a reference.

Toledo Blade
Wall St. protesters fill downtown square
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2011/10/11/Wall-St-protesters-fill-downtown-square.html
Quote:
"Toledo police officers patrolled and two officers with what appeared to be rifle cases were observing the gathering from the roof of an adjacent parking garage."

'Insane' even by Illinois standards? Union official to get $500,000 in pensions So will Occupy be protesting this?

"A labor leader in Chicago is expected to receive pension payments of nearly $500,000 a year, while another could get about $438,000 a year, according to reports Wednesday. It said an analysis showed that this 59-year-old union official, Liberato "Al" Naimoli, would get a total of about $9 million if he lived to his expected lifespan."

Also - "Another official, Charles LoVerde III, a former trustee of the city laborers' pension fund, stood to receive three pensions for the same time period totaling nearly $500,000 a year, the investigation found.

The Tribune said he took leave of absence in 1998 from a job with the city's water management department, which paid $44,000 a year, to work full time for the local." - So you get 500k in pension from a 44k job? ROFL

In the same piece another stunning example: "The Tribune said the joint investigation with WGN-TV found that Naimoli, president of Cement Workers Local 76, was receiving a city pension of about $158,000 a year. It said his city pension was based on his union salary.

Naimoli, who retired in 2010 from the $15,000-a-year city job, is also now eligible to receive a pension of about $60,000 a year, the paper said, from the Laborers' Pension Fund for Chicago and Vicinity. He also will become eligible for payments of about $220,000 a year from a third pension, provided by the national union, LIUNA, on his 60th birthday next year.
The Tribune said he had not worked his $15,000-a-year job with the city for a quarter of a century."

So is it only stealing when Wall Street does it? Wonder how many "little people" you could keep employed with these insane pensions, but I guess it's only bad when Wall Street employees steal from the tax payer. BTW they are closing 3 Police Stations in Chicago that protect the people of the city, but can afford to dole out insane pensions.

Can watch Occupy Toledo live at http://www.livestream.com/occupytoledo

Snapshot shortly after 8:00 p.m. Looks like a lamp in the background.

anonymouscoward I love your posts! And to all you closet liberal readers out there (I know you're out there) it would be nice if a few more of you could participate here!

Not sure if this was posted yet or not...

"CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About..."

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

One of my most serious concerns not listed in the article above is the legal definition of a corporation as a person. The ramifications of that are enormous. It's just not acceptible. I could occupy anywhere to protest that nasty piece of legal chicanery. Corporate officers hide behind the corporate shield and commit all kinds of wrondoing without any reprocussions.

And, yes, I too revel in anonymouscoward's postings.

How’s the saying go?

I’ll believe that a corporation is a person as soon as Texas executes one.

toledolen_ That was an AWESOME article that every poster here should read!!! Great find I will be using this going forward!
"CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About..."
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

Hey toledoramblingteabagger, try this on for size:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/13/conservatives-smear-occupy-wall-street-protests-as-anti-semitic/

"The young man has been portrayed as an “Occupy Wall Street” protester, but the vocal New Yorker is Danny “Lotion Man” Cline. He is Jewish."

He's apparently a Professional Asshole... but feel free to ignore reality and go on with the "OMG LEFTIES ARE ANTI-SEMITIC HITLER-LOVING NAZIS" or whatever the TeaOP is paying you to say today.

re: the praise for my postings

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The "Right"-wing is full of loudmouth assholes and other "if you repeat the lie loudly enough times, eventually everyone will believe it as true" types, all of whom are playing dirty, engaging in logical fallacies and propaganda tactics, and the "Left" is inherently too nice to stoop to the sewer (the gutter would be a step up)-level tactics. Thus the ignorant masses end up being swayed by bullshit (because they're too lazy or tired after working 2 jobs to make ends meet to bother even thinking let alone looking something up for verification). Of course the endless repetition of "Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck are Fair and Balanced and everyone else has a liberal bias" also taints the whole idea of verifying anything. Add to that the fact that the average American has an attention span of minus three seconds (except perhaps when sex and violence are involved, thus explaining "entertainment" for the most part) and the inability to remember anything beyond a week out. Since the "Left" won't drop down to grade-school level explanations and actually call bullshit on the TeaOP and do it despite whatever illogical bullshit the TeaOP throws back at them and continue to call bullshit louder and harder than the TeaOP, well, I guess I gotta do it. I don't really WANT to do it, but the sheer amount of hypocrisy, cognitive dissonance, fallacy, etc. out of the TeaOP/"Right" wing drives me right up the fucking wall.

Example. What did we have during the Chimpy McFlightsuit years? The ENTIRE RIGHT WING screaming that criticizing the President in wartime is treasonous, that we should respect the office if not the man, etc. etc. What's the FIRST fucking thing out of them when Obama got in? ZOMG ARUGULA! SPICY MUSTARD! SHIRTSLEEVES IN THE OVAL OFFICE! TELEPROMPTERS! BIRTH CERTIFICT WHERE OBAMA WHERE! OMG HE TOOK A VACATION AND WAS OUT GOLFING AND ON A DATE WITH HIS WIFE! WHARRGARBL WHARRGARBL HERP DERP DERP OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST! But don't you dare criticize Bush, you traitor!

Fox News is "Fair and Balanced" yet has REPEATEDLY captioned Republicans that got in trouble or they didn't like as Democrats on-screen. REPEATEDLY. As they say, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is ENEMY ACTION. And it's been more than three times.

"Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal." -- Nixon, who established a theme for the Republicans ("it's not wrong when we do it!")

Another example: When Democrats held a minority in the Senate and were filibustering bills, the GOP threatened a "nuclear option" to override the rules of the Senate and end the filibuster. But now that they don't control the Senate, they're filibustering like crazy.

Or how about how the Republicans are for SMALL GOVERNMENT and LESS REGULATION, but are the WORLD'S BIGGEST CHAMPIONS for passing GAY MARRIAGE and ABORTION BANS, both of which are MORE GOVERNMENT AND MORE REGULATION (more laws on the books that tell Americans what they can't do!) Laws that tell the "corporate person" they can't poison the Earth and its inhabitants are pinko commie librul greenie-weenie treehugger pure evil regulations that restrict Almighty Capitalism, but any law that tells individual living breathing American human beings things they can't do are A-OK. BULLSHIT! And don't forget how the Republicans in Congress can't fucking do a damned thing about jobs for millions of Americans, but can rush back to Washington on a HOLIDAY WEEKEND (IIRC) to pass a bill solely to give FEDERAL courts jurisdiction over the Terri Schiavo (forgot about that already, didn't ya?!) case, which was a STATE matter. Yes, the great party of STATES' RIGHTS/LESS FEDERAL INTERFERENCE specifically passed a bill on a fucking WEEKEND to have the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT interfere in the matter of ONE WOMAN. BIGGEST FUCKING HYPOCRISY EVER. And of course we won't see any of the Teabaggers here call out the TeaOP on it, nor will we see the Teabaggers actually do the right (ha ha, pardon my pun) thing and say "fuck the TeaOP" and go join the Libertarian Party or form something like the LP. Instead, they'll all start up the LIBERAL DEATH PANELS! bullshit, neatly ignoring how many people were EXECUTED by Republican governors or had their asses shot off in Iraq due to the bullshit and lies Republicans spread to get us into war there. That's the TeaOP: fight tooth and nail to force women to bear unwanted kids and to keep the infirm and brain dead alive (despite their wishes, because "assisted suicide" is wrong too and what with the War on Some Drugs it's hard to get effective pain control for painful terminal diseases), but if you are anything else, well you can be sent to go die in a bullshit war because we can't supply the troops with what they need to be safer, or if you happen to be suspiciously black, or retarded, or anything else the "authorities" don't like, well, hope you enjoy Death Row and no, we will not re-try your case even if DNA evidence and new testimony and prosecutorial malfeasance exonerate you.

:: pops open a beer, chugs it

Now watch as the Teabaggers here refuse to acknowledge any of my points, let alone the validity of such or even deign to see how I may have come to my conclusions and opinions, and instead resort to personal attacks against me for daring to contradict their happy little Teabaggger world where Republicans can do no wrong. Watch as the few with any sort of actual real gonads might, MIGHT claim to have held a contradictory opinion at one point. But NONE of them, NONE, have the actual stones to say "you know what, AC is right, my party is one of absolute hypocrisy and bullshit and I RENOUNCE it!" Instead, they'll just go "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

::slams empty beer on table.

a/c, dude you really need a life. This is sad.

Go out. Meet a girl.

Life is beautiful if you let it be.

These threads about "Occupy" have gotten pretty boring. How long will Wolfman try to keep this alive to divert the blame about the economy to someone other than the President and the Democraticly held Senate?

Divert Blame - Not me...

Yawn....

Danneskjold why not just leave this post then? You add nothing to the discussion so please find your own day long local fair weather Tea Party rally and have at it! Better yet call Fred Monday and give him some of your predictable partisan drivel. Or maybe start your own blog- that's it- start your own blog.

Now that's what I call high-minded advice. Especially considering it comes from the guy who cuts and pastes just about every piece of partisan drivel he posts.

A big part of why Unions like the Pension system is due to the fact that it limits the amount of taxable income a member has to report in their lifetime. Many states also adopted pension friendly tax incentives so that once income is derived from the pensions the tax bill for the individual is extremely low. Although I do not favor some of the ridiculous incidents of tax limitations on corporations such as Obama friendly GE I would just like to point out the hypocrisy of your movement which seems to demonize corporate America for similar actions.

HEY MOM2:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/12/1025555/-Open-Letter-to-that-53-Guy

I think the picture above shows that this kid worked their ass off only to be ignorant and probably poorly educated.

Wondering how that college senior is going to feel post-graduation, after their parents aren't allowed to include them in their health care plan... after they cannot get a job... after the Fall/Autumn...

Either you didn't read or comprehend the note. Because if you did, you would have realized the answer is none of your damn business.

http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

• Recipients: 926
• Total Committed: $633,575,722,738
• Total Disbursed: $579,952,314,483
• Total Returned: $277,816,965,263

Top 20:

1. Fannie Mae
2. AIG
3. Freddie Mac
4. General Motors
5. Bank of America
6. Citigroup
7. JPMorgan Chase
8. Wells Fargo
9. GMAC (now Ally Financial)
10. Chrysler
11. Goldman Sachs
12. Morgan Stanley
13. Bank of America subsidiaries (incl. Countrywide)
14. FHA Refinance Program Fund
15. PNC Financial Services
16. U.S. Bancorp
17. Wells Fargo Bank, NA
18. SunTrust
19. JPMorgan Chase subsidiaries
20. AG GECC PPIF Master Fund, L.P.

So only half of the bailout money has come back, and nobody has stood trial or been imprisoned for being part of the massive fraud and manipulation of the financial system. Sounds like a good reason to protest to me.

Chrysler, GM, dont see many crying about their bailouts, as long as its dem hand picked winners its ok.

I believe Occupy Toledo plans to protest/demonstrate at the Midwest focus of economic conference, scheduled for this Thursday, October 20 at the Unversity of Toledo.

http://utnews.utoledo.edu/index.php/10_06_2011/midwest-focus-of-economic-conference-oct-20

Some excerpts from the above link:

They do plan to disrupt the conference but I'm wondering if they know it costs around $35 to register. They have about $1500 right now so they need to be careful with thier money.

Since when did these people want to pay for anything? According to them, everything should be "donated"...food, electric, tents, heaters, etc. Preferably by the city...

They can add "admission to conference" to their donor list. Or they can just storm the castle.

I'm guessing they'll chose the latter. If it's true there's only about 50 or so people down there, they only have enough money for about 43 of 'em to attend by paying admission (1,500/35 = 42.857)

By "Capital Availability" do they mean bailouts?

Suprising remark on Occupy and Small Business from Huffpo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gene-marks/how-the-wall-street-occup_b_1016731.html

I mentioned my kids' education above and it just occurred to me that Wall Street isn't so far away from New York University. What a great opportunity! I have an idea that would also help my small business. Would you mind dropping in on John Sexton, the President of NYU, who earns $1.3 million a year? I mean, if you're going to protest greed, you might as well protest the higher education industry's greed too.

Because of the bloated administrations and tenured professors that have created this system, it's going to cost me upwards of $55,000 per year to send each of my three kids to college. That's kind of tough to afford running a small business. I don't see those costs coming down. And it seems like those guys are pretty greedy too, don't you think If you could occupy a few college campuses over the next few weeks it may help these guys realize how devastating their cost structure is to the future of this country. And how difficult it is to reinvest in a business and hire more people when every available penny is going to college tuition. I'm sure you'll agree that asking the government for loans on this is a little much, given their dire state of affairs. I would really appreciate your help on that. By the way - Sexton works right near Washington Square so you can pick up a few other "goodies" there too if you want (psst....I'm winking).

But academia is one of the pillars of the Left, heaven forbid we attack a system that causes you to incur more debt than your first home to actually earn money. Government solution is to be the dealer and just raise the money you can borrow so colleges know that and just raise their rates.

I love the intent of the Occupy crowd and support a quite a bit of their agenda but I wish they would for once look at the man behind the curtain and see the government is the source of the problem just as much as corporate greed.

How much was Dr Christa Adams making at Owens? And the nursing program was fucked up under her watch. And the faculty were going to strike because they were paid TEN PERCENT under average... all while Owens jacked up tuition.

Owens was mismanaged, and they should have been building a lot of the campus UP (2-storey or more for the AVCC/Math and Science buildings). They probably manipulated the deal to get Penta to build new (yay more taxpayer money!) so they could take over that campus to save their asses space-wise. But hey, I saw the plans to build out a new Administration building back like 8 years ago before they got their hands on Penta, at the same time they jacked up tuition and then gave the administration a raise right afterwards.

Now, go figure out who was Governor during that period and who appoints the Board of Trustees and then who sat on the Board of Trustees and tell me what the hell interest ANY of them have in anything having to do with students. Board of Trustees, Board of Directors, it's one big incestual circle-jerk of who knows who and who has money, regardless of it being higher ed, national non-profit (United Way, Red Cross), or publicly traded corporation.

I say we need serious regulation on who can sit on a board, and enact some term limits there too!

When did Ownes "jack up" the tuition?????

They have consistently been the least expensive option in the area???

Just about every year over the past 10.

Not to get too far off topic, but Owens tuition will rise again in the spring semester to $138.89 per credit hour.

Compare--

Fall 2011 Tuition & Fees
Spring 2012 Tuition & Fees

Event posted at the Occupy Toledo Facebook page:

• What : Occupy Federal Reserve Bank Speech in Toledo

• When : Thursday, October 20, 12:30pm - 2:30pm

• Where : Crowne Plaza Toledo, 444 N Summit St, Toledo, OH 43604

Oct 19, 2011 posts to occupytoledo.org :

12:19 am

2:36 a.m.

He made it rain?

I have no real dog in this Ownes Fee "jacking up" rant by ac, but he quoted them at $138.89 per credit hour.

Just checked University of Toledo Fees and they are $316.58 per credit hour.

If you are going to statements branding an institution as as though they were raping their students financially, at least make sure that is what is actually happening.

They seem to provide a very good cost per credit hour for their students.

Sorry about the typos!!

....but he quoted them at $138.89 per credit hour.

If you are going to statements branding an institution as as though they were raping their students financially, at least make sure that is what is actually happening.

Check the by-lines next time. AC made that case. I only posted their tuition is rising next semester. That's the only thing I posted...just noting that their rates are rising like just about every other institution. No agenda, no rant.

And Owens is a great deal, comparatively speaking...

In about 8 years Owens went from like $75 (2002?) to $140 a credit hour and upped "lab fees" and all the other "hidden" costs. What was the rate of inflation during that period?

Administration gave themselves pay hikes multiple times.

Nursing program was rendered worthless (lost accreditation) due to malfeasance by the administration. Never did hear how the students made out in suing Owens over that, but that was thousands in tuition times how many students who got utterly FUCKED (no accreditation = no course transfers and degree not recognized).

I understand oldhome - I wasn't directing that at you.

ac - They DID screw the nursing students in that time period. However, the program was NOT rendered worthless. The degrees are still recognized, especially in this area and Ohio but the students have to go through some hoops if they want jobs outside of Ohio.

I have child that was in the first class that had that bombshell dropped on them so I saw firsthand the problems they had and how they have been able to overcome them. They still got a good job nursing in the area. That aside, it was a ridiculous lack of competence on the part of those administrators responsible and they are no longer with Owens.

ac if you think costs haven't gone up everywhere then you are living in a fantasy world. Look at UT's costs from 2002-now, BGSU's, Findlay's, etc.

My guess is that by percentage they have all raised comparably. I'm going out on a limb here, but I am guessing that costs went up between 1992 and 2002. I'll go even further out on a limb and guess that they went up between 1982 and 1992.

I am not saying that whatever raises the top admins had were excessive or not. I have no idea. But quite frankly ac, based on the statement that you made above that was fl;at out untrue, I doubt that you do either.

Do you usually check your facts closer before ranting?

The last president of Owens got $240,000 a year.

The president of OSU gets over $800k/year.

Both schools are STATE schools. And tell me why the head of Owens, a TWO-YEAR SCHOOL, is worth over 1/4 of what the head of OSU gets?

Too bad that Issue 2/SB5 is only out to bust FACULTY unions... when it's the ADMINISTRATION that need to take some fucking pay cuts.

Sooooo, in other words you are ignoring that you pulled a comment from where the sun don't shine about the worthiness of the nursing progam and someone called you out on it?

I can get an unaccredited degree from a diploma mill and have it "recognized". Doesn't mean it's worth shit. Owens nursing students can still sit the state test and get a license in Ohio. Elsewhere, they can be shit out of luck. But graduating from an unaccredited program and trying to go get a BSN (unless Owens has a special deal with another school) is pretty much a clusterfuck. And of course absolutely everyone wants a BSN now. The piece of paper is worthless for all but getting the state license. In fact, Mercy REQUIRED their nursing applicants graduate from an accredited program, but they changed it after the Owens fiasco. Good luck being hired by anywhere that does require you graduate from an accredited program, though.

Please read other posts before ranting.

They DID get a nursing job.

Was it a cluster at Owens? Yes !!! But the degree was recognized for a nursing job at a major hospital here in Toledo.

I'm assuming however that you won't let reality ruin a good rant.

So what I'm reading here is a bunch of nurses have infiltrated the Occupy Toledo gathering at Levis Square in downtown Toledo.

I'm currently a student at Owens (a post retirement "encore" career). I also have a Bachelors in finance from UT earned in the 1990's. (I was in my 40's when I decided to go to college.) Yes, tuition costs did go up while I attended UT, but most certainly not at the rate its climbing today.

I can honestly say that the Owens program I'm enrolled in ( Landscape and Turf Management) is pretty darn good, having the ability to compare it with the 4 yr. degree earned earlier. I am getting value for my money. I also see many, many students in my discipline getting work in their field, a good portion while they are still in school. I don't know any second year student who hasnt been able to find employment. This includes me, who at the age of 65+ got my dream job. And, I had a choice of four positions from which to choose. I'd say that Owens is a very good value indeed.

Approx 7:00 p.m., Wed, Oct 19, 2011 Occupy Toledo Facebook post :

Occupy Bowling Green is scheduled to begin this Sat, Oct 22 at 4:00 p.m.

<p style="font-size:11px; font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color: #999; margin-top: 5px; background: transparent; text-align: center; width: 420px;">Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy</p>

BTW Obama stands with the 99%'ers and hates dem der evil CEO's unless it's one of the ones he is a billion too, this one isn't even for American production for heaven's sake.

From the article: "Fisker is more than a year behind rolling out its $97,000 luxury vehicle bankrolled in part with DOE money." - 97k vehicle, that really sounds like soemthing to help the middle class.

Also: "Between them, Fisker, at $529 million, and Tesla, at $465 million, have secured nearly $1 billion to jump-start production of their cars. Combined, the companies have already drawn down more than $300 million, Federal Financing Bank records show." - How many teachers can you keep in the classroom and cops can you keep on the street with a BILLION dollars. Thats right Barry "stands with the 99%'ers in hating the EVIL CEO's" well that is until he is giving them your money.

BTW the best part: "Both companies have political heavyweights behind them. One of Fisker's biggest financial supporters, records show, is the California venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers. The firm financially supports numerous green-tech firms, records show.

Kleiner Perkins partner John Doerr, a California billionaire who made a fortune investing in Google, hosted President Obama at a February dinner for high-tech executives at his secluded estate south of San Francisco. Doerr and Kleiner Perkins executives have contributed more than $1 million to federal political causes and campaigns over the last two decades, primarily supporting Democrats. Doerr serves on Obama's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness. Doerr has not replied to interview requests since March." - VENTURE CAPITALIST wait you mean Obama is friends with those evil bankers!!!???!!! You mean the same EVIL BANKERS who donated over a million dollars to Democrats in exchange for getting these loans!!!???!!!

Wait don't forget about Captain "I'll become a billionaire from carbon trading" Planet Al Gore gets paid off this too: "Former Vice President Al Gore is another Kleiner Perkins senior partner. Gore could not be reached for comment."

But the Fleabaggers (the disillusionment part of the 99%er's who still think he is the messiah) will follow him into the voting booth and right off a cliff. This 99%'ers is a complete Obama re-election team and they are not even smart enough to realize it. Best grifter in modern history, but don't worry he will throw you a bone and increase welfare payments by 20 or 30 bucks while he engages in crony capitalism to sell out the nation.

END PUBLIC MONEY FOR ALL PRIVATE COMPANIES. Only one candidate truly believes in this message but he is the "crazy one" and "anarchist". The sane ones love to hand your money out to all their buddies. Obama keeping people working in Finland, you should be proud.

http://www.nationalmemo.com/article/occupy-wall-street-tables-resolution-denouncing-two-party-system