County Health Dept. increases fees, cuts back services

Is that an elected or a appointed position?

I believe it's been discussed before that it was an "appointed" position. Which opens an entirely new can of worms when making bad decisions.

As much as I dislike Grossman, in particular the money spent on anti-smoking enforcement which should be the state's responsibility, all of these cuts seem resonable and logical. I do NOT like him raising restaurant inspections fees however. Shifting the burden onto taxpaying businesses, who already are struggling in a down economy, is a bad thing to do. Though, as someone who eats out, a lot, I do appreciate the importance of food establishment inspections.

Seems like they could let the two retirement-age administrative workers go and hire cheaper office staff, instead of setting up two people to doubledip (pension plus 70% of former pay).

Blade 8/29 article said the HD would discuss deficit matters on a Sept 17 'retreat' -wonder where that was held

The retreat was probably held at Grossman's country estate... the guy makes enough money to have one. $140k+ salary from the county and who knows what from his private practice.

It's interesting that they had a conference when they claim to already have been in the hole. Shouldn't they have done this several months or maybe a year before they started asking for more money from the country? Grossman is a con-man. He should be summarily fired.

pete, How do you know Grossman has a "country estate"? Can you describe and define? And while I damn sure dont agree with his priorities at the HD and how its structured, I'm beginning to get pretty suspicious about some of your accusations. Grossman does have a right to earn a good living, particulary from his private practice. You seem to have quite an axe to grind. What's really going on here?

holland, I do have an axe to grind. He has cost me a lot of money. And he is an incompetent ass because he can't run his department right. He keeps going back to the County for more money when he eats up 30% of County funds. He has put a lot of people out of business. That's what's going on!

What's your problem with that? Or are you grinding an axe.

No axe here. I had no problems with the health department inspections in the thirty five years I was subject to them. The fee increases the last few years were certainly not appreciated though.

My "problem" is that I prefer accusations to be a little more factually founded. So far all I see here is bad mouthing with innuendo.

For instance: "He has put a lot of pople out of business." Which businesses and how? Anybody credible sue the health department to get a license reinstated? I do know of one such business, and believe me, the HD was well founded in revoking their permit. I can back that up with court online documents. How about you? Any backup data? If its the antismoking thing, that was a state wide initiative which has already been discussed here ad nauseum. And, again I ask, just what qualifies Grossman's home or property to be a "country estate"?

All right, I agree that I engaged in a bit of hyperbole with my "county estate" statement. But certainly Grossman has put people out of business or are you living in a cave? The State of Ohio is responsible for enforcing the smoking ban. Most counties have left that up to the state. Bars have gone out of business or are you not aware?

Grossman has not left that up to the state but continues to enforce it on his own funds. His eradication of the rat problem is abominable. He can't run his department within his budget. What more do you want?

Are you working for him or are you tone deaf? He needs to go! You are being too complacent.

curious. exactly what bars closed due to the smoking ban?

Business Type Of
Business Closed? BusinessLost TipsLost JobsLost City State/Country

Adam's Place Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Bait Shop Bar & Grill Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Blue Jeans Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Consaul Tavern Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Consaul Tavern had been in business over 53 years.
East Broadway Nightclub Nightclub 50% Toledo OH
"From the get-go I've lost business. I've lost 50 percent -- everybody's losing money."
East Broadway Nite Club Night Club Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Elbo Room Pizza Parlor/Tavern 25% 2 Toledo OH
End Zone Electronics Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Fat Tuesdays Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Jordan's Place Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Laskey Lounge Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Prime Time South Night Club Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Rack Time Billiards Pool Hall Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Ragtime Ricks Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Rooster Inn Brew Pub Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Shamrocks Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
The "In" Zone Tavern Closed 100% 100% Toledo OH
Bliss' Steak Ranch Restaurant Closed 100% 100% Eugene OR
http://www.davehitt.com/facts/badforbiz.html

OH Toledo Arnie's Eating & Drinking Saloon Restaurant/ Bar Arnie Elzey was one of the main proponents of a successful effort to modify Toledo's smoking ban.
OH Toledo Bait Shop Bar & Grill Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Blue Jeans Tavern Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Consaul Tavern Tavern Closed 100% 100% Consaul Tavern had been in business over 53 years.
OH Toledo East Broadway Nightclub Nightclub 50% "From the get-go I've lost business. I've lost 50 percent -- everybody's losing money."
OH Toledo East Broadway Nite Club Night Club Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Elbo Room Pizza Parlor/Tavern 25% 2
OH Toledo End Zone Electronics Tavern Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Fat Tuesdays Tavern Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Fitzpatrick's Tavern Closed 100% 100% I had to auction off my tavern of ten years here in Toledo as I never recovered from our last smoking ban.
OH Toledo Jordan's Place Tavern Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Laskey Lounge Tavern Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Max's Diners (2 locations) Restaurant Closed 100% 100% The Kaminskis say they tried to contact the city several times last year to see if they could get some help.
OH Toledo Ottawa Lanes Bowling Closed 100% 100% “He was so drastically impacted by the smoking ban in Toledo.”
OH Toledo Prime Time South Night Club Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Rack Time Billiards Pool Hall Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Ragtime Ricks Tavern Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Rooster Inn Brew Pub Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo Shamrocks Tavern Closed 100% 100%
OH Toledo The "In" Zone Tavern Closed 100% 100%
http://www.smokersclub.com/banloss3.htm

The Ohio Liquor Control Commission has scheduled a hearing Thursday in Columbus on whether to revoke the license of Sandusky Street Tavern, which has racked up $28,200 in smoking-ban fines and currently owes $24,182.83 with interest and fees to the Ohio Attorney General's office. A decision on the liquor license is not likely to be made immediately, said David McCallister, the commission's executive director.
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2011/09/12/Tiffin-bar-s-license-in-state-s-sights.html

After reading about the effects of Ohio's smoking ban and the state Health Department's statement that business profits are not adversely affected by the ban, I did a double take ("Heart ills down 26% since ban on smoking; Ohio law didn't hurt restaurant, bar sales," Sept. 2). The Bronze Boar downtown, which used to be a cigar bar, lost 50 percent of its customers and revenue after the enactment of the smoking ban.The ban had a devastating impact on Ohio bars, without any question. Some went out of business. The study is a self-serving sham. http://www.toledoblade.com/Letters-to-the-Editor/2011/09/09/Oregons-vote-to-keep-pike-lauded.html

i would be curious to see a list of places that "closed" (some listed here are open, like Arnies, regardless of new mngmt.)the year or two before "the ban". and I put that in quotes because I have been to many that people still smoke in. i am sure thats available somewhere if closings are kept track of on the up and up. otherwise its just a list of frustrated owners. I mean, ragtime rocks? really?

Unfortunately, there is no way to attribute the closings solely to the smoking ban. These places could have been on the downhill slide long before the ban and simply by closing after the ban, are now the "poster children" for the smoking ban's effect on business.
I'm sorry but people don't go to bars to smoke. They go to drink. The smoking ban may be an inconvenience, but I find it hard to believe people stopped going because they couldn't smoke. Are we really supposed to believe that these people stayed at home to drink and smoke?

With the UFC fight the other other night at Frickers' along with the UM, OSU and Tigers playing, they had a two hour wait...

A two hour wait for Frickers... boggles my mind.

As for your list, a lot of them were dive bars at best. Arney's was just gross. Back in the day, it was the only place in town to watch a football game on Sunday, now there are a hundred better places, including the NFL ticket on direct TV. Rag Times was in the same boat... Ottawa Lanes Bowling sold out to a resurant chain...

Sorry you aren't making your argument.

OH Toledo Ottawa Lanes Bowling closed 100% 100% “He was so drastically impacted by the smoking ban in Toledo.”

I'm sure the closing had nothing to do with the fat wad of money offered for the property by the Smokey Bones people.

And the last season of bowling leagues at Ottawa Lanes was before the smoking ban.

My husband bowled in a league there all the way up to the last season. I was pregnant with our first child that season, and the smoking ban wasn't enacted until after my daughter was born.

• Slight correction - it looks like the alley might have closed after my daughter was born, but I know that they were already aware that it was going to be closing while I was still pregnant. That's why my husband's bowling team was searching for another league to join. So, I'm extremely skeptical of anyone who claims it closed because of the smoking ban.

April 24, 2005

"The bowling alley is closing because the property has been sold and the building is soon to be razed to make room for a Smokey Bones Barbeque & Grill."

Article

It also seems feasible that the purchase negotiations would have been in the works for some time before that date.

The point is they still cannot control their costs. The last I had read the HD still had a few million in it's coffers so why are they raising fees? Last thing small biz needs. I last posted on another thread 9/7/11 regarding how the HD is funded (info from the auditor's office)

Also, I used to spend a lot of time at the Bait Shop Bar & Grill with a big group of friends (pre-kids and husband...well, he & I started dating during that time frame, but I digress).

Anyhow, I can assure you that the crowds there were steadily decreasing long before the smoking ban came into play.

By late 2002/early 2003, you really only saw the place packed for special events like when the Menus came into town. Otherwise, the crowd was not anywhere near what it had been when I first started going there.

The Bait Shop closed in what...2004? And Toledo's smoking ban went into effect in August 2003?

It wasn't the smoking ban that killed the Bait Shop. It just fell victim to the normal cycle of popularity in nightclubs.

I agree with mom. Several of the places that have closed (restaurants as well as taverns) since I've been in town were scary, grimy dens that were relying on an aging customer base. We had lots of coupons and discount deals and in some of those places we didn't even want to collect our free meal. I'm sure it was all great fun back in the day (such as, 1979) but the times have changed.

Not to defend the Health Dept. (much) because I feel they could improve, but since they are responsible for paying the medical expenses for certain types of handicapped individuals who will need perpetual medical care, they maintain a multi-million-dollar-fund for that purpose ... or so I read in the Blade some time back.

I just realized that HF and I agre on this issue. I guess that means I have to stay home this weekend waiting for the monkeys tp fly out my butt. (and yes, I know that just opened up some jokes for him):0p

Wasn't that in A Very Special Episode of Glee?

Had to beat someone to the Glee reference...LOL

They are ALL special, silly.

Huh. Thought this thread was about the fact the HD blows through our taxpayer money. Of course, they spend most of their time applying for gov't grants so it's no problem, except that is also...OUR MONEY.

OK, private: the Health Dept. and Grossman are blowing through money as fast as the monkeys are coming out of Ryan's butt. Now we are all on the same page again.

Not sure I get your meaning Viola. Just wondering why their 'retreat' was not public record. They lay people off, raise fees, etc.. Why is that not public??? Why not in their monthly meetings?

Private, I guess they are not accountable to anybody nor do they have to go on any public record. Grossman and company seem to do what they want. Doesn't seem like any "public" governmental organization in my experience and maybe that explains why they need more money. These guys really need to be audited.

Can someone help me out here? What would we need to do to see that the county health department gets audited? Do we ask our county commissioners, or do we go beyond their level and request a closer look by someone with the state? If I were to submit a Freedom of Information request to get their records, what exactly do I need to examine? Thanks.

Questions I would like answered would be the following:

Gross Annual Budget

Gross Annual Budget for Rat Control or Abaitment

Number of inspector or sanitarian labor hours assigned to rat control or abaitment

Number of labor hours expended on rat control or abaitment

Average cost of rat control or abaitment labor hour

Number of annual complaints received regarding rats

Number of annual complaintes acted on in the field regarding rats

Gross Annual Budget assigned for smoking legistation enforcement

Number of labor hours assigned for smoking legislation enforcement

Number of labor hours expended enforcing smoking legislation

Average cost of labor hour for smoking legislation enforcement

Number of complaints received annually regarding smoking legislation infractions

Number of complaints acted on in the field regarding smoking legistation infractions

If I had the time to do this ( work and school don't permit it) I would start by asking for copies of whatever report(s) they give to The City of Toledo and to the Lucas County Commissioners. The only cost should be a "reasonable copying cost".

In my experience as an elected official (on a very, very small scale) I have found that government agencies sometimes duck giving out information by denying that such imformation exists in the manner requested. Example: If you ask for a "Rat Control Report" they say they dont have a rat control report. They do have that information, but in a report or reports with a different name. So, go overly broad, or go very specific with a request. See what turns up. Expenditure reports are usually the most telling.

I'm not implying that government agencies always deliberately don't cooperate, but there are times...... And you'd be surprised about how many requests they do get that are just nonsense time wasters.

Thought this thread was about the fact the HD blows through our taxpayer money.

The person who started the topic is the one who introduced the topic of smoking and bars as well.

Viola, the Lucas County Auditor is responsible (among other things) to:
• Account for millions of dollars received by the County each year;
• Issue payments for all County obligations, including the distribution of tax dollars to the townships, villages, cities, school districts, libraries, and other County agencies;
• Administer the County payroll; and
• Produce the County’s annual financial report.
http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/index.aspx?NID=1337

This means the department also issues a financial report of all departments, including the Health Department. Every year the auditor issues a Comprehensive Annual Financial Report that includes the finances of all departments. http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/documents/Auditor/Accounting%20and%20Finance%20Reporting/C.A.F.R/C.A.F.R.%202010.PDF

My impression is that the county auditor is not an investigative agency and does not seek out justification for expenditures of any of the county departments. I believe that each county department is responsible for putting its own budget together and living within that budget. How they spend the money is up to them. If they can't live in their budget, they go back to the county and ask for more money. That is what Grossman has done.

My question and, apparently, Holland's too is why can't the HD live within its budget so that it has to cut services and raise fees, and what the heck is it really spending all that money on anyway? Let's have a detailed breakdown of its costs and expenditures. That's what I mean by an audit... a real audit, not a cursory sign-off of a general overview.

From the August HD meeting minutes.

Administrative Services
Joanne Melamed reported as follows: We finally received the official Audited Financial
Statement for the Health Department for period ending December 31, 2010. Gilmore, Jasion
and Mahler, Ltd. prepared the document. The independent auditors looked at our financial
8 mef/board 08-25-11 minutes
position including cash receipts, cash disbursements, changes, cash balances and reserves for
encumbrances. There were no “material misstatements” meaning we are very healthy
regarding the reporting of our finances. The auditors reviewed two federal grants—Women,
Infants, and Children and Public Health Emergency Preparedness. There was full compliance
with all laws, regulations, contracts, and all grant application requirements. Last year, the
Health Department received two audit corrections, which were cleared. Next year, we asked
the auditors to also focus on our smaller grants.
Ms. Melamed said that regarding revenue opportunities and as we look at budget cuts, we
also want to pursue additional revenue streams. We have learned that anytime staff assists
clients/patients in applying for Medicaid, the billing division can bill for administrative
services. Other counties have received from $50,000.00 to $200,000.00 annually for this
service. Also in our pharmacy there are about 17,000 patients and about 25 percent of those
are third-party insurance patients. If we are able to charge for this service, it could be an
additional revenue stream.

About rats from same meeting.

Nathan Fries, Registered Sanitarian (R.S.), was recently featured in the Lagrange Street
News publication for an article entitled, “Rat Proofing Your Property from Pesky Rodents”.
Paul Bauman, R.S., is now the President-elect of the Board of Directors for the Ohio
Mosquito Control Association. He also serves on the Board of Directors for the Toledo Area
Sanitary District.

Here is where I found it.
http://co.lucas.oh.us/documents/Health/8-25-11%20-%20BOH%20Minutes.PDF

Nice piece of research Linecrosser.

With winter coming, I'm glad to have found a friendly neighborhood bar that allows smoking in the evenings. Now I'll be spending money in Toledo, instead of heading to Detroit where the ashtrays never left the tables after Michigan's ban was enacted.

Simple I stopped going to bars, buy beer at the grocery store and smoke in the garage.

ha