Toledo Talk

Another downtown watering hole bites the dust...Easy Street Bar.

I was just told by one of their employees that tonight is their last night.

Someone listening to some of you guys around here would be fooled into believing the downtown Toledo bar scene was part of a thriving metropolis.

There still are a few more downtown watering holes that are circling the bowl.

Easy come, easy go.

Not to worry, the Chinese are here checkbook in hand.

created by 6th_Floor on Jan 30, 2011 at 01:19:37 am     Business     Comments: 3753

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Comments ... #

In my opinion, Easy Street was another business that failed due to poor management. I live near it and have dined there several times. Never once had good service and the food was average at best. The bad service is what kept me away for good. Even with a half-off coupon I wouldn't go there.

posted by Newbie on Jan 30, 2011 at 09:10:13 am     #  

I hate to see a local business fail, but when it's managed poorly it is to be expected.

posted by Newbie on Jan 30, 2011 at 09:10:54 am     #  

I was never impressed. They didn;t even know how to make their website easily accessible. That kind of thing will make a place close in any city.

posted by Ryan on Jan 30, 2011 at 09:35:19 am     #  

"Another downtown watering hole bites the dust...Easy Street Bar."

It appears to me that 6th floor enjoys it when a downtown business fails.There are plenty of places that have closed in the burbs.Why only mention the businesses that fail downtown?Open your eyes,it is happening all around us and not just in downtown Toledo.

posted by buckeye278 on Jan 30, 2011 at 01:09:27 pm     #   1 person liked this

This is not entirely surprising, their service sucked. It was impossible to get anything to eat in a timlely manner there. It's still sad though, I never like seeing a business close down.

Buckeye is right, it appears you like it when anything downtown fails. I work downtown and frequent many places downtown after hours. It bothers me when people trash talk our downtown, but hey this is America, everybody's going to bitch about something.

posted by hunkytownsausage on Jan 30, 2011 at 01:20:31 pm     #   2 people liked this

I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. Horrible service and the food was seriously lacking.

posted by HickoryG on Jan 30, 2011 at 05:05:29 pm     #  

"Why only mention the businesses that fail downtown?"

Because we're told that downtown Toledo is the key to the entire region. Berkey residents are concerned.

In August 2008, Lucas County Commissioner Ben Konop said

"The fate of our region, in large part, depends on the future of downtown."

A few years ago after a couple downtown businesses closed, county commissioner Konop held a meeting to discuss the issue. Why would a county commissioner be concerned only about businesses closing in downtown Toledo, when, as mentioned above, businesses close in other parts of Toledo and even in other communities? I'm sure it had nothing to do with Mr. K living in downtown Toledo.

posted by jr on Jan 30, 2011 at 05:13:15 pm     #   1 person liked this

"There still are a few more downtown watering holes that are circling the bowl"

Would you be more specific??

posted by Newbie on Jan 30, 2011 at 05:15:41 pm     #  

Sad to see someone's dream go. But I have to agree, the food sucked and the service was worse.

posted by slowsol on Jan 30, 2011 at 06:49:09 pm     #  

are we 100% positive it's closing? a friend went there and asked around. his waitress had no idea what he was talking about.

posted by upso on Jan 30, 2011 at 06:52:37 pm     #  

That's a good question, upso. I'm assuming your friend was there sometime today? When the OP started the thread it was just after midnight this morning, which would seem to mean that last night would be the LAST night for Easy Street. Or maybe it was just that particular employee's last night.

posted by valbee on Jan 30, 2011 at 07:19:48 pm     #  

Konop would have been concerned because he was a downtown resident.

posted by toledolen_ on Jan 30, 2011 at 07:51:24 pm     #  

Hah. Just reread your post, jr.

posted by toledolen_ on Jan 30, 2011 at 07:51:48 pm     #  

Thats lame. I am sure he is/was concerned about any closing. But we all put alot of pressure and attention on downtown and always have.

posted by Ryan on Jan 30, 2011 at 08:57:29 pm     #  

As usual, Jr did a nice job summarizing the subject.

Continuing the discussion...Buckeye, city hall and the local media continuously babble on and on about downtown economic growth everytime a new bar/restaurant opens. So yes, there is an element of "I told you so" involved now that some of them are falling apart.

Those places did well as long as the credit bubble scam continued. Now that scam has ended, many service related businesses are failing.

Frankly, anyone with a pulse knows the truth how the Toledo economy (dt included) is currently faring...it's lousy.

Contrary to what is believed by many, an economy doesn't function via people serving each other drinks and meals.

After the rest of the weak players in the downtown market fail, the remaining businesses will be left to prosper. How many survive has yet to be determined.

Ultimately, I've been going downtown for years...before and after the stadium hoopla began.

If you choose to post here places that open and close throughout the area outside downtown, feel free to do so.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 30, 2011 at 09:03:17 pm     #   1 person liked this

ok, it's been confirmed. Easy Street is NOT closing. Let's hold off spreading rumors.

posted by upso on Jan 30, 2011 at 09:34:18 pm     #  

Lol. Now I feel like the guy that says something bad about a buddy's ex girlfriend. Then they get back together.

posted by slowsol on Jan 30, 2011 at 09:52:01 pm     #  

6th floor has issues.

posted by Ryan on Jan 30, 2011 at 10:52:24 pm     #  

Well, looks like I know where my next burger is coming from. Pick your finger, 6th floor!

posted by toledolen_ on Jan 30, 2011 at 11:00:31 pm     #  

With me currently working in a logistical job type, how one treats other people, in the service industry especially, goes a long way. It's that Golden Rule/karma/laws of reciprocity type of thing. Easy Street must have 'earned' their fate I reckon

posted by djimpelr on Jan 30, 2011 at 11:17:55 pm     #  

"Easy Street is NOT closing."

That means they have time to address some of the other comments posted here:

  • "Never once had good service and the food was average at best. The bad service is what kept me away for good."
  • "I was never impressed. They didn;t even know how to make their website easily accessible."
  • "This is not entirely surprising, their service sucked. It was impossible to get anything to eat in a timlely manner there."
  • "I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. Horrible service and the food was seriously lacking."
  • "I have to agree, the food sucked and the service was worse."

If the food is "lacking" then at least provide good service.

posted by jr on Jan 30, 2011 at 11:37:31 pm     #  

This the same Easy Street that split up from the one in BG?

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 31, 2011 at 12:43:29 am     #  

If they aren't closing, two sources I thought were reliable last night gave me incorrect information.

Jr, how about adding to the time to address list: when does the building owner plan to pay the nearly 50k owed and past-due property taxes?

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 31, 2011 at 12:50:53 am     #   1 person liked this

When it was owned by the BG folks, it was a lot better. Service still wasn't great, but the food rocked. Since the split, it has been passable, at best.

posted by Anniecski on Jan 31, 2011 at 10:37:47 am     #  

They do have one thing going for them. Their fried pickles are pretty great.

posted by toledolen_ on Jan 31, 2011 at 11:57:59 am     #  

Hasn't been the same since it was Kelsey's(sic).

posted by roygbiv on Jan 31, 2011 at 12:16:45 pm     #  

Met my wife there when it was Kelsey's !!

posted by Hoops on Jan 31, 2011 at 12:17:41 pm     #  

I wonder if they will sell me the urinal that Kest and Lewandowski fought over. :)

posted by Molsonator on Jan 31, 2011 at 12:19:55 pm     #  

I thought that was at Wesley's ?? I could be getting them mixed up.

posted by Hoops on Jan 31, 2011 at 12:30:00 pm     #  

Molsonator - could you fill me in on the Kest-Lewandowski urinal fight? I only got to town around 1990, so maybe that was before my time. I know who Kest is, but who's Lewandowski??

posted by texlovera on Jan 31, 2011 at 03:38:51 pm     #  

http://toledoblade.com/article/20041129/NEWS33/411290327

&

http://toledoblade.com/article/20050825/ART12/508250330

"and restaurant located in the Uptown district of downtown Toledo, was known as the place where two long-feuding Lucas County officials duked it out in the restroom.

The scuffle, involving former Republican auditor David Lewandowski and former Democratic treasurer Ray Kest, occurred in the winter of 1989. The pair exchanged fisticuffs in the tiny bathroom, resulting in various cuts and bruises, not to mention next-day news headlines and lots of courthouse gossip."

posted by toledolen_ on Jan 31, 2011 at 03:52:24 pm     #  

I did two years of internship with Mr. Lewandowski in the mid 80's. Great guy and I learned a lot. The bathroom brawl - now I see at Wesley's - always cracked me up. Our staff used to go to a bar called The Cameo on payday for burgers. Mr. (Judge) Lewandowski would always pay the bill. I think it is long gone. Good times. Party in the park times.

posted by Molsonator on Jan 31, 2011 at 04:48:08 pm     #  

@upso Can you cite your sources that ESC isn't closed? I have called a few times today and nobody has answered. This doesn't mean it's closed, phones don't always get answered in bars. Just looking for confirmation.

posted by TJRubicon on Jan 31, 2011 at 11:46:19 pm     #  

UPSO posted: ok, it's been confirmed. Easy Street is NOT closing. Let's hold off spreading rumors.

---------

Acknowledge and accept the fact that Easy Street is closed. Whatever friend you had that went there must have went there on or before they locked the doors early Sunday am, and nevertheless was given incorrect information.

TJ Rubicon, I have no idea why upso would disagree and there isn't any reason why the employee I know and a friend who is a regular there would lie to me what they were told.

We'll see, but I think it's safe to assume Easy Street won't reopen with the current ownership.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 01, 2011 at 12:45:23 am     #  

Toledolen_ chimed in with: Well, looks like I know where my next burger is coming from. Pick your finger, 6th floor!

-----------

Unless you are grilling it upstairs in an apartment or tailgating in the parking for a Walleye game, you won't be having your next burger at Easy Street Bar/Cafe.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 01, 2011 at 12:56:59 am     #  

This will make some of you happy(6th floor).I just read where My Brothers Place is closing.It also is in downtown Toledo.Time for some of you to celebrate.

posted by buckeye278 on Feb 01, 2011 at 09:48:38 am     #  

6th_floor, my friend that works/worked there claimed to not know anything of the closing as of sunday. but yes, it does look like they closed. bummer.

posted by upso on Feb 01, 2011 at 09:55:24 am     #  

There is a note taped to the upper left corner of the door that reads closed for remodeling.

Apparently words from an employee and a regular patron weren't good enough for this crowd. Especially posters upso and valbee.

Here is what I also discovered this morning signed by a person named Shawn Neal and taped to the chained and locked door at Easy Street Cafe:

A note to the letter carrier.

As of 1-29-11, Toledo Easy Street is CLOSED FOR GOOD. However, there are still four occupied apartments upstairs. Please install a cluster box type mailbox or take the stairs and deliver the mail directly. 4 names listed.

At the very least if you carry a cellphone would you please call today on your arrival, so I may meet you downstairs. I am expecting a time sensitive document any day now. His #. If you personally cannot install a mailbox, can you direct me to someone that could help me.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 01, 2011 at 10:07:13 am     #  

upso, as bad as it is for the people and businesses that falter during the economic downturn, capitalism weeds out the weaker hands.

Both downtown and elsewhere. In order for the remaining businesses to survive and prosper, businesses like Easy Street have to disappear.

I don't know or care what caused ESC to fail, but I do know the building owner owes approximately 50k in unpaid property taxes. Likely the mentioned upstairs apartments are generating some income for the property owner and he still refuses or is unable to pay what he owes.

Personally, I think that property should be immediately foreclosed upon so those rents can no longer be collected and someone else can buy the property and begin paying taxes.

Lucas County and Toledo have enough financial problems. They shouldn't allow deadbeat property owners to continue collecting rent revenues, when it's clear certain property owners have lost the ability to remain current on paying property taxes.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 01, 2011 at 10:27:31 am     #  

I agree. Thanks for doing the recon on the closing 6th_Floor. Hopefully something great moves into that space. It's a great building.

posted by upso on Feb 01, 2011 at 10:35:50 am     #  

Thanks buckeye. I had never heard of the place. According to their facebook page, they opened November 16, 2009.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/My-Brothers-Place/209824194045

My Brother's Place ended lunch service as of last Friday, but will still do some catering.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 01, 2011 at 02:03:16 pm     #  

Easy Street had great cajun shoestring fries. The only place in the area I could get them. Sad to see them go, but I visited the Bowling Green location more than Toledo.

However, their customer service is something to be desired. I lived above the one in Bowling Green for a while, and I was always disgusted that I couldn't get a to-go order when the restaurant was busy. To get around this, I would go to the restaurant, ask for a seat, order and then ask for the meal to be boxed up immediately.

Some businesses would learn from reading Ari's guide to customer service: http://www.amazon.com/Zingermans-Guide-Giving-Great-Service/dp/1401301436. Customer is king -- learn it or meet your demise.

posted by JJFad on Feb 01, 2011 at 04:30:13 pm     #  

Geez 6th floor - I sure hope you live or work next door to that place because if you are spending time trying to prove its closing you may want to look into volunteering or something.

posted by Ryan on Feb 01, 2011 at 06:42:19 pm     #   1 person liked this

Just heard of this. I use to work with one of the owners but our plant closed last summer and we lost our jobs along with many others and he said things were bad then at easystreet. Mainly due to the road construction that took place on michigan leaving downtown. That just killed them. Seems like road construction can really hurt business, like the docks with MLK bridge. Max and Ermas and BK in maumee.

It seems so many people on here are never happy with there service or food anywhere.

posted by kwi50 on Feb 16, 2011 at 12:30:50 am     #  

It seems so many people on here are never happy with there service or food anywhere.

There are plenty of threads and comments on here that are positive about restaurants and other services around town. Try looking in the "Fish Sandwich" thread for starters.

I'm sure jr can come up with more...

posted by oldhometown on Feb 16, 2011 at 10:52:08 am     #  

"It seems so many people on here are never happy with [their] service or food anywhere."

If that's true, then it's a business opportunity for a restaurant to provide abnormally great service.

posted by jr on Feb 16, 2011 at 01:50:40 pm     #  

.... That just killed them. Seems like road construction can really hurt business, like the docks with MLK bridge. Max and Ermas and BK in maumee.

It seems so many people on here are never happy with there service or food anywhere."

Max and Erma's closing had nothing to do with road construction. They were in bankruptcy (the entire chain) and were purchased by Denver-based Newport Fidelity Holdings LLC for the seemingly paltry sum of $28 million.

The new owner went into immediate negotiations with it's many landlords to get the rents reduced. The landlord of the Maumee store was one who refused to negotiate so M&A's pulled up stakes and left.

As for the Burger King you reference, if it's the one on Arrowhead Road, that location closed well before the first shovel of dirt was turned for the cloverleaf project. Perhaps the same ownership as the closed BK on Monroe Street in Sylvania across from Dave White Chevy?

As for so many of us not being satisfied with food or service - I could probably be the Chairman of that group. For the most part, with a handful of exceptions, the fare offered up in this area is mediocre at best. But, I can't really blame the establishments. Most of them are packed to the gills most nights of the week. If NW Ohioans demanded better, they'd get it. Toledoans love their serving platter full of food for $5.95 - quality be damned.

posted by Foodie on Feb 16, 2011 at 04:27:03 pm     #  

Hey buckeye278, a couple more have walked the plank. Although, supposedly one is only temporarily closed.

Players Bar, across the street from the Huntington Center appears to have hit the skids. Didn't someone here post Players Bar had a good amount of business on UFC nights? Apparently, it wasn't enough to keep the doors open.

Spike & Muddy's, a bar on St. Clair Street, one block from the stadium seems to be on life support.

A sign on the front door at S&M reads, "temporarily closed". Maybe they will make one last attempt to survive when baseball season begins in April.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 23, 2011 at 11:46:37 pm     #  

Someone let Andrew Z know if he wants to open another pizzeria, there are a couple more downtown vacancies.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 23, 2011 at 11:48:20 pm     #  

Players is closed because of poor management and the "wrong crowd" always being there. It was always kind of "ghetto" in there. Let's be honest here folks, that's not the kind of crowd most people going to and from the arena want to be around. I willing to bet something else opens up there sometime soon, it's too good of a location.

Spike and Muddy's is in kind of a shitty place and it's small. People have to walk past at least two or three other bars/restaurants before they get to S&M. Come to think of it, maybe they should just call it S&M's. They might get some more interest based on the name, albeit by weirdo's, but hey it's a tough economy out there.

posted by hunkytownsausage on Feb 24, 2011 at 09:11:18 am     #  

I agree with the wrong crowd at "Players". Went in there after a hockey game and vowed it would be the last. Too many baggy pants down to the knees, sideways hats, bling and a language that resembled english

posted by Hoops on Feb 24, 2011 at 10:04:51 am     #  

I heard Spike and Muddy's changed ownership, hence the "temporarily closed" sign. Maybe the new owner(s) will be making some decent improvements in time for baseball season.

The name "Players" was enough to steer me away from there. Hope somebody does something nice with it.

posted by brainswell on Feb 24, 2011 at 10:13:28 am     #  

There is also a new place opening up on Huron with an "at the park" thrown into the naming.

posted by upso on Feb 24, 2011 at 10:55:39 am     #  

Near your place upso ?

posted by Hoops on Feb 24, 2011 at 11:42:09 am     #  

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I feel bad about Players. They had good food, and it was a nice downtown lunch spot.

posted by Anniecski on Feb 24, 2011 at 12:39:07 pm     #  

They had good food, and it was a nice downtown lunch spot

Never went there, but it wouldn't be the
first place to have a completely different clientele during the day than at night. Good point.

Although if my first impression was that this was a hangout for the baggy-pants gangsta set, I'd be out of there too, day or night...

posted by oldhometown on Feb 24, 2011 at 01:26:56 pm     #  

Upso, is that new place what used to be Avalon? I saw it was going to be called Quimbys at the park.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 24, 2011 at 02:55:34 pm     #  

yup

posted by upso on Feb 24, 2011 at 07:28:28 pm     #  

Upso, do you know what type of place is Quimby's going to be? Just curious.

posted by Newbie on Feb 24, 2011 at 09:40:13 pm     #  

Guessing the same Quimby's as Lambertville?

http://quimbysfoodandspirits.com/

posted by karen on Feb 24, 2011 at 10:18:11 pm     #  

same

posted by upso on Feb 24, 2011 at 10:48:09 pm     #  

I wonder why know hasnt tried putting something in back at the commadore perry? I worked there went it was banana joes, Good Times!

And to FOODIE-thx 4 all the correct updates!! you sure are on top of things!!!

posted by kwi50 on Feb 25, 2011 at 11:27:51 am     #  

Maybe it's the type of customers that causes such shutdowns.
Here's the blade's article about Marilyn's being raided.

http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-Fire/2011/03/12/Downtown-strip-club-raided.html

posted by hockeyfan on Mar 12, 2011 at 02:13:31 pm     #  

Ummm... Easy Street didn't exactly share the same customer base as Marilyn's.

posted by toledolen_ on Mar 12, 2011 at 04:08:18 pm     #  

Marilyns is/was off-topic for this thread.

posted by jimavolt on Mar 12, 2011 at 04:11:42 pm     #  

"Easy Street didn't exactly share the same customer base as Marilyn's"

Sad but true. If there had been public nudity at Easy Street, I would have gone there a bit more often. Dinner and a show! :-)

posted by viola on Mar 12, 2011 at 05:06:08 pm     #   1 person liked this

If there had been public nudity at Easy Street, I would have gone there a bit more often. Dinner and a show! :-)

It's like a nude beach...you might want to see one, until you're there and realize who is naked...and it ain't pretty!

Don't know if you want a body-balmed, oiled up stripper serving you any type of food. Who knows what might have "fallen" in your food.

That hair you found may not have come from someone's head...

posted by oldhometown on Mar 12, 2011 at 05:13:40 pm     #  

I like Quimby's - we've been going there since it opened. Didn't realize they were opening a downtown location. Interesting.

posted by mom2 on Mar 12, 2011 at 05:48:15 pm     #  

I was trying to point out that with a place like Marilyn's, downtown isn't getting the best reputation. Especially when you're trying to build up downtown and attract businesses.

posted by hockeyfan on Mar 12, 2011 at 06:56:17 pm     #  

It's a strip club. What else can you expect? Just a few months ago the news stations were praising this place for doing lap dances for haiti. They got CNN attention. I'm sure Platniums Scarletts and all these others are the same. And the only way to stop it is to.....close them down!

posted by mk123 on Mar 12, 2011 at 07:26:35 pm     #  

Before we go on a moral journey, strip clubs aren't the only ones that have illegal activity going on inside them.
Prostitutes hang out at bars too. Gambling goes on inside corner stores, and drugs are all over.
Adult entertainment oriented businesses are always making money. Does that mean there should be one on every corner? Probably not.
I applaud the crack down on crime, but if there isn't enough police officers and people who care about it to stop it, it's a losing venture.
The prostitutes will move to another location, or to a massage parlor, the drug dealers will find other "sellers" and "buyers", and those wanting both will find it somewhere. Unless it becomes as important as American Idol or Jersey Shore, it will be an occasional thing.

posted by hockeyfan on Mar 12, 2011 at 09:41:45 pm     #  

The "entertainers" are usually flying on Xanax or Vicodin combined with the alcohol. Gotta get thru the night grinding on unattractive strangers someway. The local clubs talent level has always been sub-par, especially when compared to certain Detroit establishments. But there are enough people who find this exciting and really think the girls care, the other half are just there for extra-curricular stuff, too numerous to mention

posted by Hoops on Mar 13, 2011 at 11:16:33 am     #  

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=8095302

Hey Buckeye, did you make it over to Sidelines "at the arena" for one last drink before they padlocked the place?

The immediate area of Toledo's beloved and touted arena now is a checkerboard or closed bars/eateries.

posted by 6th_Floor on Apr 26, 2011 at 10:11:30 pm     #  

Now someone wants to put in a jazz club at the location. Hasn't Jimmy Jackson already tried that at the same location?

posted by 6th_Floor on Apr 26, 2011 at 10:13:17 pm     #  

Oh 6th Floor - you are everyones hero! Any chance of getting a life soon?

posted by Ryan on Apr 26, 2011 at 10:20:38 pm     #  

that's a pretty positive abc story!

as for "The immediate area of Toledo's beloved and touted arena now is a checkerboard or closed bars/eateries."

can you give more details? which closed places are you talking about?

posted by upso on Apr 26, 2011 at 10:20:45 pm     #  

Upso, you are downtown daily and have been active in this thread, so you fully know which places have recently closed.

Another one that hasn't been mentioned is the Slap Shot bar or Hat Trick Bar & Grill that recently attempted to reestablish business. However the place only made it about one or two weeks before it bit the dust. Ironically, their "open" flag is still hanging from the building. However, there is a 4 sale by owner sign in the window.

That particular block of Superior Street, I believe it's the 300 block has several closed businesses. Even the Chinese restaurant on that block tanked since the stadium opened.

posted by 6th_Floor on Apr 26, 2011 at 10:32:43 pm     #  

All these closings have more to do with 5/3 moving to Seagate and the Nicholas Building being mothballed than anything to do with the arena.

posted by JohnnyMac on Apr 27, 2011 at 12:03:40 am     #  

The Sidelines story isn't exactly what it was made out to be here. Eric is a friend of my husband's, and he told us about it awhile ago. (I didn't bring it up on TT, because it wasn't my place to be the one to make the information public.)

Sidelines was leasing the space. The building was sold, and the new owner wants to open a jazz club. That's it - nothing particularly sordid or scandalous. Had they not been pushed out by the new owner of the building, I'm 99.99% sure that Sidelines at the Arena would have remained open.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Sidelines open another restaurant somewhere else in the area in the upcoming year. Its my understanding that they're considering potential locations. (Not downtown - I have a few ideas of what part of the metro area they're likely looking in, but nothing definite enough that I'd be comfortable sharing here yet.)

Anyhow, those who want to be negative can simply state the partial truth that Sidelines closed. But the whole truth is actually somewhat positive - a person invested the money to purchase a downtown building, and wants to develop that location according to his own plan.

posted by mom2 on Apr 27, 2011 at 01:19:53 am     #  

Co-owner Eric Sitter says, "We didn't lose any money, didn't make any money. This guy wants to buy the building, so hey."

The new owner has plans to move the sports bar out and bring in an upscale restaurant and jazz club.

The arena sits across the street, and Fifth Third Field is just a block away. But without a concert or a ball game, Sitter says bringing crowds downtown is challenging.

"We had a good lunch crowd, but that's only an hour," he says. "Getting someone down when there is no event is tough."

Above is from the abc story.

Even with the believed great location, and the excitement of a new arena opening downtown, he admits the place didn't make any money. Their hours basically a while ago were reduced to only being open a few hours each day, he's likely happy to be leaving.

I personally don't believe a business model exits in Toledo which has break-even or profit only being open a few hours each day for lunch.

The new owner is opening an upscale restaurant and jazz club. Which is the same type of business that failed in the space prior to Sidelines opening. Also, Jacksons was open during much better economic times than now.

The arena is now operating, but who here actually thinks minor league hockey fans really going to hang out at a jazz club? Oh, I forgot, they also have concerts there. After the next Bob Seger, Reo Speedwagon, or Rush concert, I'll be sure to reserve a table well in advance. LOL

posted by 6th_Floor on Apr 27, 2011 at 02:34:37 am     #  

so much of the commerical failure in downtown is completely predictable - we continue to tear down historic urban buildings, cut off streets, and build all of our civic buildings directly adjacent to each other creating "superblocks" that have large essentially blank walls and made downtown to the warehouse district unwalkable most of the time. this approach is antithetical to all accepted planning practices - but our politicians, who clearly know best, ignore good planning and find a stooge (gateway) who will advocate on behalf of the site hand picked by the politician. sure the stadium and the arena are nice and do well, but they tend to suck the life out of everything around them when they take down buildings and are built so close together and destroy previously existing pedestrian and automotive paths.

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Apr 27, 2011 at 08:17:46 am     #  

"Hey Buckeye, did you make it over to Sidelines "at the arena" for one last drink before they padlocked the place? "

I have been to Sidelines a couple of times and I can say it was not one of my favorites.Sidelines had a restaurant in Maumee for a short while.Did you make mention of it when it closed its doors like you are for the downtown location?I guess when it happens in Maumee it is a non issue with you.

"I personally don't believe a business model exits in Toledo which has break-even or profit only being open a few hours each day for lunch. "

How about Grumpys?They have very limited hours and have been in business for quite some time.Grumpys is mainly open for lunch.

posted by buckeye278 on Apr 27, 2011 at 08:38:42 am     #  

27 years and going strong! :)

posted by upso on Apr 27, 2011 at 09:14:06 am     #   1 person liked this

I don't hang out in Maumee much, and the THREAD TOPIC is about DOWNTOWN TOLEDO. Help yourself if you'd like to post about other parts of the Toledo area.

I'll wait for upso to post about Grumpys, since he/she surely knows more about Grumpy's business model than you or I.

I haven't been there, and it isn't exactly the same type of business (booze with food) as the others mentioned, but the place is open m-f well before lunch hours. I don't have any idea if there is a bar or any liquor is served.

posted by 6th_Floor on Apr 27, 2011 at 09:30:44 am     #  

Sandwich, that's an interesting post with points that I hadn't previously thought about.

posted by 6th_Floor on Apr 27, 2011 at 09:52:40 am     #  

6th, we currently do not sell booze. Up until november we were only open for lunch M-F... but we now serve breakfast as well. :)

I am in the process of getting a liquor license, so we can play around with private parties etc... but it is not and hasn't ever been a part of our bottom line.

posted by upso on Apr 27, 2011 at 10:18:30 am     #  

Holy shit! Grumpy's has been open for 27 years? That's awesome. Wasn't it on Michigan at one point?

posted by TJRubicon on Apr 27, 2011 at 10:40:01 am     #  

If memory serves me correctly, the Sidelines in Maumee had to close because the building needed to be demolished (former XO building). Shortly after that, they opened on Laskey in the former BW-3 location.

(That's my recollection of the sequence of events anyhow - I can confirm later.)

posted by mom2 on Apr 27, 2011 at 10:51:36 am     #  

No Mom2, the building is still their. It's just cursed...

posted by SensorG on Apr 27, 2011 at 10:53:26 am     #  

Didn't they tear down the building and rebuild that Mesmerize place? I could swear I remember a lot of construction going on right before that place opened (was working at Arrowhead at the time).

Or maybe they were just doing extensive rennovations to bring it up to code?

posted by mom2 on Apr 27, 2011 at 11:09:03 am     #  

TJRubicon.. yes. It was originally on Broadway just south of downtown, then on Michigan (at washington) for 10 years. We've been on Huron in our current location for 12 years! :)

posted by upso on Apr 27, 2011 at 11:16:40 am     #  

grumpy's was in harry sparlings building on michigan (33?) across from kelsey's where lauri gallons bakery used to be. prior to that it was on broadway in the old south end... it sprang out of the former horne (sp?) hardware - making sandwiches for construction workers who came through at lunch to pick up supplies. about right?!

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Apr 27, 2011 at 11:21:12 am     #  

OK...I had to text my husband to clarify, because it was bothering me that I couldn't remember.

The actual structure of the building was a disaster - think there might have even been some type of mold issue. Mr. Mom2 also said that the utilities in that building were unreasonably higher than you'd expect for a comparable building in the same area.

Perhaps that's why I recall all the construction before Mezzmerize opened - they probably had to invest a ton in the remodel, given the problems with the building.

(Guess that's why I assumed the building was nuked and rebuilt, because I thought there was a mold problem or something else serious like that.)

posted by mom2 on Apr 27, 2011 at 11:23:34 am     #  

folks, enjoyeverysandwich has hit the nail on the head with much precision. i'd comment further, but there's nothing left to say -- enjoy explained it all. too many squandered development opportunities...

posted by luvtoledo on Apr 27, 2011 at 11:56:56 am     #  

sorry, didn't elaborate: i was referring to enjoy's 8:17 post...

posted by luvtoledo on Apr 27, 2011 at 11:58:08 am     #  

"I don't hang out in Maumee much, and the THREAD TOPIC is about DOWNTOWN TOLEDO."

Weren't you the one that brought up Sidelines?I was just pointing out to you that they had another location that had closed.For you to blame Downtown Toledo for Sidelines closing would be just as crazy as me trying to blame the closing of Sidelines in Maumee on Maumee.I guess what I am trying to say is that Downtown Toledo is not the only area that has restaurants/bars closing.Why all the negativity towards Downtown Toledo?If you were to compare how many places that are open Downtown now as compared to ten years ago,I think you would find that there are more restaurants /bars open now then during that time.

posted by buckeye278 on Apr 27, 2011 at 12:56:56 pm     #   1 person liked this

Buckeye posted: If you were to compare how many places that are open Downtown now as compared to ten years ago,I think you would find that there are more restaurants /bars open now then during that time.

That doesn't equate to any net growth for Toledo. Contrary to what Toledo politicians would like people to believe, bars/restaurants don't add value to an economy.

Buckeye, if you or Toledo gov't throws enough shit against a wall, some of it is bound to stick.

If you drive northeast along Summit Street, you will see that since the arena and stadium have been built, it's completely dead.

I'm not "blaming" downtown for Sidelines closing. I have been hanging out downtown pre and post new arena and stadium. I'd like to see downtown do well. However, I'd like to see it happen with 0 or as little gov't involvement and money as possible.

Politicians will likely continue pouring great amounts of incentives (our money) and hype into downtown, but the end result will be the same.

Portside, Erie Street Market, Docs, Lagrange/Vistula revitalization, Marina District, concrete flower pots throughout downtown, a half dozen bankrupt apartment deals, etc. How many stupid political ideas have to vaporize to convince some of you folks gov't economic development is an oxymoron?

posted by 6th_Floor on Apr 27, 2011 at 04:44:19 pm     #  

"That doesn't equate to any net growth for Toledo. Contrary to what Toledo politicians would like people to believe, bars/restaurants don't add value to an economy."

Using that logic.If bars or restaurants opening or closing downtown mean nothing as far a economic growth,then why do you make such a big deal when one closes?

posted by buckeye278 on Apr 27, 2011 at 05:45:48 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Didn't they tear down the building and rebuild that Mesmerize place?"

It no longer has the name of Mesmerize on the building.It is now called Ambrosia.It also failed.

posted by buckeye278 on Apr 27, 2011 at 05:56:21 pm     #  

http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=623914

Yet another business in the heart of downtown bites the dust.

I'm surprised it lasted this long...the place has been dead every weekend for quite a while.

Still 2 more nights to have one last drink there under the current ownership.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 30, 2011 at 02:55:03 pm     #  

Wow - that sucks. With Murphy's and Rusty's closed, there are fewer local options for live jazz.

posted by historymike on May 30, 2011 at 03:17:28 pm     #  

According to their announced "plan", the new owners that bought the building in Dec 2010, where Sidelines used to be, are going to open an "upscale restaurant and jazz club" at the location.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 30, 2011 at 03:50:50 pm     #  

That is too bad. I really loved the intimate vibe there.

posted by Ace_Face on May 30, 2011 at 10:36:23 pm     #  

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/local&id=8210670

Another long-time Toledo eatery bites the dust.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 25, 2011 at 06:59:01 am     #  

The Budapest used to have excellent food.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 25, 2011 at 07:01:17 am     #  

"Used to" -- but not in a long while. A friend and I stopped there for lunch one day, and the food was so bland that we actually complained about it. The response was, "Well, we get a lot of senior citizens, and they like things bland."

Well, there, you've practically guaranteed your customer base is going to die off...

posted by Anniecski on Jun 27, 2011 at 09:02:49 am     #  

Our Brothers Place opened in the former Sidelines last Friday. I walked by on the way to the Hens game and noticed how busy it was. They actually closed the section of Huron next to the arena to use it as parking.

posted by brainswell on Jun 27, 2011 at 09:36:06 am     #  

If I ever had the cash I'd buy San Marcos and move it near the stadium. That place is so freaking good, and I imagine it would only do better near the action and not near the bridge.

That place has great food and is thriving. Just goes to show you, a good business succeeds and when a bad business fails...it's not necessarily an unfortunate thing.

posted by BusterBluth on Jun 27, 2011 at 02:01:07 pm     #  

Has anybody here heard any news about Mickey Finns on Lagrange? I drove by there a couple times this week, including tonight and the place wasn't open. That bar had a long run before the Mud Hens stadium opened with several nearby bars.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 15, 2012 at 02:16:45 am     #  

It's still going strong. I have several friends working there, and they are still employed.

posted by upso on Jan 15, 2012 at 03:07:12 am     #  

I was in MF's a cople of weeks ago...

posted by SensorG on Jan 15, 2012 at 09:15:11 am     #  

I'm hearing Thursday is the last day for Jed's downtown. The place was poorly operated from day 1.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 15, 2012 at 10:41:09 am     #   1 person liked this

I don't know if it was the ownership debacle or the fact that I'm not in college anymore, but I just haven't had the same love for Jed's that I used to in the early/mid 2000's. The Jed's on Reynolds used to be THE place to go to watch a game or just meet up with some friends, and now it's that place that gets named at the bottom of the "where can we get a beer tonight" list.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 15, 2012 at 10:48:02 am     #  

They weren't even open for events like the March Madness Final 4. Going out of business was never a question of if with Jed's DT, but when they finally would throw in the towel.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 15, 2012 at 10:54:13 am     #  

Too bad for Jed's. The guys who own/operate that one seem to do good in P-Burg, Maumee, and BG. It must be bad if they cannot hang on for baseball season. Went there last Saturday before the Walleye game and it was packed.

posted by Hoops on Feb 15, 2012 at 10:56:41 am     #  

That Jed's has been a dead spot since day 1. Horribly managed, service has always sucked, and the idea of a live band is just bad for a sports bar/grill. The last time I was there was after the Central Catholic/Olmsted Falls playoff game back in November and I was literally the only customer there. PATHETIC for a Friday night

They weren't even open for the Final Four back in April

posted by odnation on Feb 15, 2012 at 10:59:14 am     #  

The girlfriend and I went to Jed's DT after a game one night and couldn't order food because the where about to close. This was around 10:30. After that, we never attempted to go back

posted by steve155 on Feb 15, 2012 at 10:59:18 am     #  

I remember when it opened as the Dirty Bird in 2002 under Avie Caple and was packed for about three years. Then the wheels came off the wagon what with his use of drugs, alcohol and whatnot. Then it became Legends for a couple of years and those guys couldn't make a go of it. I don't know whether it's just bad management or the place has a hex on it. It's in a great location, too, but nobody can make it work. Too bad! A lot of money has been sunk into that building over the years.

posted by pete on Feb 15, 2012 at 11:11:46 am     #  

My issue with that location is that it is not set up to draw customers from Washington Street. If you don't know it's there, it almost appears to be an empty building when viewed from the ball park. Compare it to the Blarney and Fricker's; both have a visual presence in the area. I bet any bar could thrive in that location if they put an entrance from Washington Street in.

posted by brainswell on Feb 15, 2012 at 11:13:00 am     #  

I'm hearing Thursday is the last day for Jed's downtown. The place was poorly operated from day 1.

it's weird, because that location is ideal for just about anything but for whatever reason every business that it's had in the past decade has been poorly managed. it's like the building is cursed. you'd think a block from the ball park, with a patio and a parking lot would be a no-brainer.

none the less, i'm bummed it's closing it's doors.

posted by upso on Feb 15, 2012 at 11:13:36 am     #  

I agree Upso. People I know in the bar/restaurant have said exactly what you have about that location.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 15, 2012 at 11:24:56 am     #  

"... you'd think a block from the ball park, with a patio and a parking lot would be a no-brainer."

So the location is too good? Maybe those owners assumed their businesses would succeed strictly based upon location, and those owners believed they did not have to try hard to offer a quality product and quality customer service. Location trumped the desire to operate well.

posted by jr on Feb 15, 2012 at 11:36:10 am     #   3 people liked this

The downtown Packo's has to be bleeding money as well. Like a few of us have mentioned, there are several downtown establishments circling the bowl.

Unfortunately, with the location of the casino, many bars like Jed's around town are going to struggle to make a profit, and The Docks are going to greatly suffer.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 15, 2012 at 11:49:30 am     #  

The last few times I've beenin Frickers downtown it's been packed.

posted by SensorG on Feb 15, 2012 at 11:54:08 am     #  

Fricker's runs good specials (Beer, wings, chunks) on various nights and is half the price of Jed's on these nights.

posted by Hoops on Feb 15, 2012 at 11:56:45 am     #  

I always wish Frickers the best for they know how to correctly operate a bar. They are only closed one or two days a year and even if the place is dead, their kitchen is open until 1:30 and the bar until 2:30.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 15, 2012 at 12:07:45 pm     #  

Maybe those owners assumed their businesses would succeed strictly based upon location, and those owners believed they did not have to try hard to offer a quality product and quality customer service.

Sadly, this is not a Toledo-only phenomenon. A lot of places (everywhere) rely on their "view" or "prime location" as draws.....and the food quality, quantity, and service are just god-awful.

Been there, done that.

posted by oldhometown on Feb 15, 2012 at 12:23:24 pm     #  

I know Packo's has had it's internal issues going on for god knows how long, but I can't imagine the ballpark location is exactly bleeding money. I'm in there about every other week at inconsistent times (weekend nights, weekday nights, weekend afternoons, etc) and there always seems to be a decent sized crowd when I'm there.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 15, 2012 at 12:53:40 pm     #  

upso posted at 10:13:36 AM on Feb 15, 2012:

I'm hearing Thursday is the last day for Jed's downtown. The place was poorly operated from day 1.

it's weird, because that location is ideal for just about anything but for whatever reason every business that it's had in the past decade has been poorly managed. it's like the building is cursed. you'd think a block from the ball park, with a patio and a parking lot would be a no-brainer.

none the less, i'm bummed it's closing it's doors.

It's cursed Indian burial ground, like the corner of Dussel and Pburg/Holland. You could have 50k cars drive past daily and put the only In-and-Out east of the Mississippi there and post about it all over the Internet and it'd fail in two years.

posted by anonymouscoward on Feb 15, 2012 at 04:51:05 pm     #  

Haha, that Dussell corner... my family has had personal experience with the curse, as we were an early failure there. (no, NOT the strip club!) And yeah, it's just a revolving door of hopeful entrepreneurs.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 15, 2012 at 04:55:11 pm     #  

I'm still sorry the Holland House, on Holland-Sylvania road closed many years ago. Their Moronburgers were the best hamburgers I ever had!

posted by Wulf on Feb 15, 2012 at 06:08:05 pm     #  

It is sad that Jed's is closing. That said, I don't think that the owners really put much into it. I gotta agree with Upso on this one. A great location is one of many factors in the success formula. It also has to do with too many sports bars crammed into a few square blocks. They are all ultimately offering the exact same thing and it doesn't make sense to compete for wallet share by offering the same product as the guy down the street. I suspect that Quimbys will be next, sadly.

posted by Newbie on Feb 15, 2012 at 09:07:39 pm     #  

I don't think Quimby's is going to close. It's been open and under the same owner since 2004 or thereabouts. It's owned by John Bates. Ring a bell? His dad, also named John Bates, owns Heidtman Steel, a billion dollar a year business. Quimby's will be around for a long time.

posted by pete on Feb 15, 2012 at 09:34:41 pm     #  

I should add that it's been open under about three or four different names, but always owned by the same person.

posted by pete on Feb 15, 2012 at 09:35:54 pm     #  

It also has to do with too many sports bars crammed into a few square blocks. They are all ultimately offering the exact same thing and it doesn't make sense to compete for wallet share by offering the same product as the guy down the street.

good point! If you put something new / original in that spot I think it would do a lot better

posted by upso on Feb 15, 2012 at 10:27:36 pm     #  

Pete: What does having a daddy that owns a steel company have to do with running a successful bar? Just wondering...

posted by Newbie on Feb 16, 2012 at 08:09:22 am     #  

$$$$$$$$

posted by Hoops on Feb 16, 2012 at 08:48:55 am     #  

13ABC has a link confirming the closing of Jed's

posted by Hoops on Feb 16, 2012 at 08:57:10 am     #  

Newbie, the female equivalent of that "Dad money/son bar" scenario is the developer who sets aside a storefront in his strip mall for the wife / daughter / mistress to operate a dress shop or gift shop. Revenues can be irrelevant if the rent is subsidized by a family member.

posted by viola on Feb 16, 2012 at 11:53:00 am     #  

I understand that. My point is that being a daddy/sugar daddy/husband subsidized operation does not make it "successful". As soon as the payor comes to their senses that they are throwing good money after bad to support another's folly, the place is boarded up.

The one thing I think separates the successful businesses downtown from the failures is owner dedication and involvement. Every time I patronize the successful ones, the owner is almost always there keeping an eye on his/her investment. The ones operating on someone elses dime are never around - and ultimately fail.

posted by Newbie on Feb 16, 2012 at 02:09:54 pm     #  

They didn't leave because lack of business. They left because they didn't want to continue paying $8,000 a month for that building (lease).

posted by mk123 on Feb 16, 2012 at 04:06:45 pm     #  

because of*

posted by mk123 on Feb 16, 2012 at 04:10:07 pm     #  

Yikes that's crazy high rent

posted by upso on Feb 16, 2012 at 04:24:06 pm     #  

$8,000 is crazy high rent. I used to work for Frickers and they were only paying $5,000 a month for their rent and their landlord paid their gas, water, and electric.

posted by classylady on Feb 16, 2012 at 04:27:57 pm     #  

Word is a teenage nightclub is opening up in May in the space

posted by classylady on Feb 16, 2012 at 04:30:21 pm     #  

Woah. So basically $100K a year to lease their space? What's the square footage there? Were they leasing the entire building, or just the ground floor?

posted by Johio83 on Feb 16, 2012 at 04:30:29 pm     #  

classylady, where did you hear that? I'm a bit skeptical of that, since they just went through that whole ordeal with (I believe) Dave Ball pushing to have a teen nightclub a block away, and it got shot down faster than people could get to a computer to complain about it.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 16, 2012 at 04:32:07 pm     #  

Yeah, a teenage club in that area is not going to fly well with locals.

posted by toledolen_ on Feb 16, 2012 at 04:54:51 pm     #  

Johio83, I used to work at Frickers and live in that area. I was told that the building a block away was not zoned for a dance club. Jeds is. I was also told the same person that owns Jeds owns the building that wasn't zoned properly for it.

posted by classylady on Feb 16, 2012 at 05:13:48 pm     #  

Yeah, that's correct about the zoning issue. Well if it's the same guy (owner of the property that needed to be rezoned, owner of Jed's), that definitely adds some validity to the rumor.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 16, 2012 at 05:20:28 pm     #  

Johio83, I just read the Blade and there is an article on Jeds closing. You said Dave Ball was pushing to have a nightclub a block away. According to the Blade, Dave Ball owns Jeds. Jeds is obviously zoned as a bar. Still skeptical?

posted by classylady on Feb 16, 2012 at 05:20:29 pm     #  

When I said I was skeptical, I wasn't implying you were lying or anything - I was saying that, because the teen issue came up a few months back, you might have heard somebody say something along the lines of "well they've been trying to get a teen club down here" etc, and that person might not have known that the issue died back then. Since all you said was "word is" that could mean anything, ya know?

(And Dave Ball owns the building, not the business)

posted by Johio83 on Feb 16, 2012 at 05:44:13 pm     #  

I believe the building Johio83 is referring to (from a few months back) is the old Police horse stables - S.W. corner of St. Clair & Lafayette.

posted by toledolen_ on Feb 16, 2012 at 05:48:11 pm     #  

A teen nightclub would have a VERY strong opposition in the neighborhood. How could such a place afford $8k in monthly rent anyway? I'm sure Ball himself would not be operating it. Not gonna happen.

posted by Newbie on Feb 16, 2012 at 06:05:07 pm     #  

Newbie posted at 05:05:07 PM on Feb 16, 2012:

A teen nightclub would have a VERY strong opposition in the neighborhood. How could such a place afford $8k in monthly rent anyway? I'm sure Ball himself would not be operating it. Not gonna happen.

Why would a teen nightclub in the downtown of a mid-sized city face opposition from the "neighborhood?" Is it assumed that teenagers always cause trouble, but adults never cause trouble? Would Toledo be the first city of its size in the U.S. to have a teen nightclub in its downtown? Would a new cemetery or a morgue meet the approval of the neighborhood?

Reminds me of this October 2007 post titled Toledo's definition of a vibrant downtown means silence

It seems the neighborhood dislikes businesses that cater to adults too. Who is this "neighborhood" that wields so much power? It's the downtown of a mid-sized city not the downtown of Walbridge.

posted by jr on Feb 16, 2012 at 06:32:54 pm     #   3 people liked this

@Newbie. There can be a lot of reasons an owner with deep pockets chooses to keep a money-losing operation open. One is tax write-offs, another is personal. As Viola pointed out, giving one's wife or mistress a business to keep her happy and appreciative can mean a lot to Mr. Moneybags and he may not mind taking a loss. If it's a son, it may be all that more important to keep the kid occupied and happy. Third might be that the business is part of his professional image and he takes his clients and business associates there to entertain them. There could be a lot of reasons. Maybe what we at the bottom of the economic heap think of as success may not be so important to the guy who has more money that we could possibly spend in a year. Maybe the rich think differently than we do.

posted by pete on Feb 16, 2012 at 06:39:06 pm     #  

@pete yeah he can keep it open for the reasons you claim but not only is he losing money in the operation but he has the headache of looking after it. And the headache and stress is not worth it.

posted by mk123 on Feb 16, 2012 at 08:09:40 pm     #  

@jr: you seem to be taking this a little personally. Planning to open a teen dance club down here?
I don't mind people, noise or traffic. It IS downtown and I would say most people here welcome and encourage new businesses. But keep in mind that the area around the ballpark is mostly residential. The residents do have a strong voice and are likely to oppose things that don't complement a "safe-r and enjoyable" neighborhood feel. Sure, adults cause many problems when alcohol is added, but there are also grown-up consequences that go along with it. I have found people who live downtown to be much more open and tolerant of things that would give suburbanites heart attacks.
Don't make hasty generalizations when comparing a sports bar across from a nice ballpark to a teen club. What would you rather have in your 'hood.

posted by Newbie on Feb 16, 2012 at 10:36:23 pm     #   1 person liked this

Paying 8k rent per month, they lost their shirt operating that location.

Regarding the teen club and the neighborhood complaining about it. Who and how many really live in the immediate vicinity to oppose the teen club? Do even 25 people live within one city block of the location?

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 16, 2012 at 11:45:23 pm     #  

on NBC24 they just said, they are closing because of a lack of revenue

posted by upso on Feb 17, 2012 at 12:13:48 am     #  

Regarding the teen club and the neighborhood complaining about it. Who and how many really live in the immediate vicinity to oppose the teen club? Do even 25 people live within one city block of the location?

tons of people live in the warehouse district. just on the same block, st. clair has 20-30 people living, and then a block in most given directions you have more like 500 people living.

the warehouse district has a surprising amount of residential.

posted by upso on Feb 17, 2012 at 12:15:43 am     #  

in fact, that's partly why it's so quiet. :)

posted by upso on Feb 17, 2012 at 12:16:28 am     #  

@Johio83, sorry I misinterpretted what you were saying. Ball owns both buildings, so it does make sense that the teen club could go in there.

But as others have stated a teen club will not be able to afford $8,000 a month rent. Maybe the owner realizes how crazy that rent is seeing Frickers rent is only $5000 a month with utilities included, the Blarney Irish Pub and Home Slice Pizza are paying $3,500 a month for rent.

posted by classylady on Feb 17, 2012 at 12:55:54 am     #  

If I remember correctly there was a teen club briefly downtown in what was formerly Hat Trick then Slap Shot on Superior. That didn't last long at all, just like the other bars that tried to start up there. I happened to see the owner there today but didn't get a chance to talk to him. That was a fun place after Walleye games and another unfortunate one to see go.

posted by WalleyeWinger on Feb 17, 2012 at 01:06:37 am     #  

You confirmed my guess that 20-30 people live ON THAT BLOCK. The entire warehouse district doesn't really have any business telling an owner of a building at Washington/St.Clair that has already housed several bars, what type of bar can operate at the location.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 01:16:03 am     #  

I agree that 8k or even 5k a month for that location only operating as a teen club isn't feasible. Is the fire code capacity even counting the patio higher than 225?

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 01:22:59 am     #  

"@jr: you seem to be taking this a little personally."

@Newbie, did you buy the Jump to Conclusions mat?

"Don't make hasty generalizations when comparing a sports bar across from a nice ballpark to a teen club. What would you rather have in your 'hood."

I don't know what you're talking about, but you did make a hasty generalization about suburbanites.

Are you now saying the teen club is the preferred choice over a sports bar in the downtown?

Are you asking if I prefer Bigz or a teen club in my West Toledo neighborhood? If so, the answer is neither, which is why I live in the part of the hood that is just houses except for Elmhurst Elementary.

I'm talking about downtown. A lot of focus has been placed on downtown. It's suppose to attracts us to visit.

So I'm trying to understand why whiny residents live downtown. They complained about the existence of the The Durty Bird as described in that old thread posted above, and now the possibility exists that downtown residents would complain about a teen club.

This must be that bizarro Toledo thinking. Let's mime fun, so it's nice and quiet downtown.

January 2005 Toledo Talk post titled Toledo Entertainment District that pointed to a Blade story which said:

A proposal to create an entertainment district in the warehouse district with 15 new liquor permits is causing alarm in the budding residential community there. Some say the district would create too rowdy an atmosphere. A proposal expected to get a first reading tonight from Toledo City Council would establish an 80-acre community entertainment district covering Fifth Third Field, much of the Warehouse District, and the entire Owens Corning world headquarters property

Newbie, do you agree with those concerned residents from 2005? Is it too rowdy of an atmosphere in the Warehouse District, thanks to all those liquor permits? Does a teen club get a liquor permit?

From that 2007 post : "Complaints about noise from a downtown bar located in the entertainment district."

That sounds silly to me. People complaining about noise in the entertainment district. Is it wrong to have an entertainment district in downtown Toledo? Why do people live in the entertainment district if they dislike the side effects of entertainment?

posted by jr on Feb 17, 2012 at 02:35:55 am     #  

I would like to hear more noise downtown.

Residents of the Warehouse District arent just entitled to a quiet neighborhood. Not in a dense business district aka Downtown. I also remember hearing arguments against the new casino being located downtown because downtown needs to be family friendly.

Toledo just doesn't understand. Residential units that are in or around mixed use, downtown development can't have the same noise expectations and intolerance that a neighborhood of single family houses can.

posted by Tobias on Feb 17, 2012 at 03:14:11 am     #   1 person liked this

I live in Bartley Lofts and don't have a problem with bars downtown, providing they have security, cameras and are ran by responsible owners.

I realize people living downtown and the warehouse districdt shouldn't complain about a bar, just like people that live by the airport have no excuse for complaining about noise.

My concern with the teen night club is violence. Remember what happened at the one in Maumee, and that was in a burb. If the owner of the teen night club has security (which also patrols the area after hours), and the police enforces the curfew law, I have no problem with it.

posted by classylady on Feb 17, 2012 at 09:53:27 am     #  

To Tobias's point, I think that probably stems from the fact that our "urban living" landscape isn't very developed. In bigger cities, you have a lot of options for your urban areas - you can be right in the heart of all the craziness, or you can go to a little posh subsection a few blocks this way, or the artsy community the other way, etc. We are sort of in our infancy stage, where we sort of have different areas, but nothing very defined or well developed.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 09:58:19 am     #  

100% agree with classylady. A teen nightclub just seems like a high risk environment. Just thinking about walking through the parking lot after a high school football game, and seeing the recklessness and irresponsibility there - don't bring that downtown. The downtown bar scene should be left to adults who know (for the most part) how to handle themselves in that environment.

I guess to get abstract with it; there are different levels of nightlife. There's the tame "let's go have a drink and kick back" kind of atmosphere at one end, all the way to "let's have a crazy time!" at the other. The latter is better suited in a downtown environment - a little faster paced, and reserved for the professionals who know how to handle themselves. That's not a good environment to mix kids into, especially when the bar scene is such a big part of it.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 10:06:34 am     #  

All lot of good points here, i just wasted alomost a half hour at work reading them!

Then about 10 min on the docks saga!!

David Ball seems like a legit successfull business man!

And John Bates too, Quimby's will never close, i actually like there layout better than table 44 and blarney, just for some reason they dont fill up like those spots, cause they dont market at all...deep pockets!!

I enjoy this thead and the docks & bigz saga the most!! It seem watering holes create a lot of buzz, just wait till the casino opens and the buzz starts...

oh the last teen club was out in maumee,that i remember, that was shut down cause u got 18 and 19 years olds with 13 and 14??? and there was a shooting, good old maumee.

posted by kwi50 on Feb 17, 2012 at 10:08:55 am     #  

(and to clarify, I'm fine with the "let kids be kids" mantra. Everyone goes through the rambunctious high school age where we really don't consider the fact that other people exist. I'm just saying that mixing that immaturity level to a place with a high density of bars and adults who are partying is not a good thing)

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 10:09:20 am     #  

What kind of revenue do the teen clubs generate to sustain themselves? A $10 cover charge and $5 Red Bulls ?

posted by Hoops on Feb 17, 2012 at 10:35:45 am     #  

I have a hard time believing a teen club is actually moving into that building.

posted by upso on Feb 17, 2012 at 10:56:56 am     #  

I still haven't had an answer to my question earlier: was Jed's renting the entire building, or just a floor? What's the story with the other floors?

As others have said, that is a PRIME piece of real estate...

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:07:10 am     #  

Don't jump to the conclusion that John Bates (the father) is who keeps Quimby's afloat. I happen to know otherwise.

John Bates (the son) has other interests besides Quimby's.

posted by Foodie on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:09:05 am     #  

So, Johio83 is ok with a teen nightclub operating in other parts of the city, but not his own utopia, downtown? I personally think a teen club in Toledo is going to have problems no matter what area of town it's located.

Even if the place does open, it won't be open long, imo. However, I think you downtown dwellers are being very hypocritical about being so against it.

The only other bar on St. Clair Street is Frickers and it's busy times are before midnight. Downtown was a graveyard last night after midnight. The only bars that seemed to have many cars post midnight were Ottawa Tavern and Bretz. They aren't even really downtown, but in the uptown neighborhood.

No matter how much you guys trumpet how great downtown nightlife is, the fact is most nights, post midnight the area is empty.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:11:47 am     #  

6th_Floor, go back and reread my statement, but this time, read it for what it says, and not with "I'm gonna make such a good comeback to this" floating through your head the whole time.

I said that in a place like downtown, where there is a high density of bars, and is more of an "adult night life playground" area, I don't feel it's a good idea to put a teen club there.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:15:17 am     #  

Read my post again and since you live downtown, if your eyes are open you should know. More often than not, post midnight, the high density of bars more resemble a graveyard than an adult night life playground you are proclaiming.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:18:20 am     #  

Upso, I also don't believe it will happen. The space isn't large enough or ideally designed for a teen club. I would think a teen club would need one large room and Jed's doesn't have that. They'd have to charge $10-15 to enter and $10 for a red bull to be profitable. Again, even if it does open, it won't last 6 months. Either lack of business will tank the place, or the cops will.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:27:12 am     #  

I don't see the relevance. Wouldn't a teen club in downtown be busiest at the same time the bars in downtown are busies - weekends?

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:27:54 am     #  

I don't know which nights would be busiest. When I was a kid going to Glass City Boardwalk, it was Sunday nights.

Other than Frickers, what bar is within shouting distance of Jed's at the yard?

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:34:58 am     #  

"Ottawa Tavern and Bretz. They aren't even really downtown, but in the uptown neighborhood."

And Manos and Manhattan's have existed on Adams St for several years. Maybe the key is to open a bar or restaurant away from the baseball stadium. After all the Hens have not played a game since last August or September. If a biz is heavily reliant on traffic from baseball games, that only covers around 70 days per year. Maybe it would be better to concentrate the small business entertainment in Uptown, and let Uptown be the year-round place to go.

posted by jr on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:36:57 am     #  

Imo, the design of Quimbys is best-suited for a teen club. They already tried a "club" at that location and both times it flopped.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:38:14 am     #  

"The only other bar on St. Clair Street is Frickers"

Don't forget about home slice.

"More often than not, post midnight, the high density of bars more resemble a graveyard than an adult night life playground you are proclaiming."

Depends what you are talking about. Sure on a Thursday Night there are very few places downtown that have a big crowd after midnight on a weekday, but Friday/Saturday are different story. I don't know about Bretz but Ottawa tavern tends to have more of a younger crowd so I m not surprised they have a crowd on a Thursday night.

posted by glasscityguy on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:46:27 am     #  

Agreed about Quimbys being the best design for a club. I think the reason Avalon failed, and is probably the case for a lot of downtown's failures, is a lack of advertising. I can say with almost no exceptions that none of my friends new about a single bar or club that wasn't next to the ball park before I moved downtown. And considering there are so few clubs around Toledo, I can only imagine what a couple tv and radio spots for Avalon could have done.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:47:24 am     #  

Yeah, I did forget about Home Slice. Any city I've visited that had an "adult night life playground" had plenty going on Thursday-Saturday. Toledo's doesn't resemble anything remotely close to what should be named that, but hey you guys are a glass-half-full crowd for sure.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:52:35 am     #  

I'm not saying that Toledo has a crazy night life, because it's obviously far from it. I'm saying that the downtown night time environment is geared toward adults who are there to have a crazier time than just kicking back and relaxing with a beer.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 11:54:55 am     #   1 person liked this

Johio83: I still haven't had an answer to my question earlier: was Jed's renting the entire building, or just a floor? What's the story with the other floors?

As others have said, that is a PRIME piece of real estate...

It really isn't a prime piece of real estate. It's already housed 3 bars that have closed in ten years. Before it sold in 2009, the previous owner took a real beating after it was was listed for sale when Legendz closed. It's on a block with plenty of empty space, so what's so prime about it? The upstairs there needs quite a bit of work.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 12:08:00 pm     #  

I guess I should say it SHOULD be a prime piece of real estate. With that location, I'd think it would be ideal for a couple upscale lofts on the upper floors.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 12:12:28 pm     #  

Agree it should be.

I have a lot of respect for people like upso who are making a few bucks downtown operating a business, and actually making downtown a better place. Unfortunately, this city is controlled by idiots who repeatedly make foolish decisions and downtown isn't going to prosper. I mostly believe that if private money doesn't finance business it shouldn't happen.

The downtown Toledo urban utopia that politicians lied about, to date, has yet to happen, and I'm not holding my breath waiting for it either.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 12:21:52 pm     #  

That corner is prime real estate, at least is should be. I agree with the person who said that it looks abandoned from the Washington St. side. The whole layout of the first floor is wrong-in my opinion. Tear out the bar, open up the windows that were once there facing Washington, put a U-shaped bar in the middle - where the stage is now, and knock out the dividing walls to create a more open space. I think the atmosphere is a deterrent for people. Dark and kinda dingy. Plus, it just looks like the Durty Bird with a few new signs on the walls. Not impressive. I always preferred Frickers with it's open layout and awesome view of the field.

I've heard a rumor that the space across the street attached to the stadium has sold. I have no idea what will go in there, if anything. Hopefully it won't be another sports bar. A new theme would have a better chance of surviving the off-season. Blarney, Papalis and even Forty-4 do decent business this time of year. Blarney and Papalis were both busy last night (I didn't make it to Forty-4). I have a list of what I'd like to see for more downtown adult and family entertainment, but the main thing is that the business is well run and helps make downtown a destination, not another Blade article of what's failed. As for the teen club, Dave Ball is not an idiot. I don't believe it will be brought up again.

posted by Newbie on Feb 17, 2012 at 01:26:31 pm     #   1 person liked this

I don't believe it will be brought up again.

-Except on TT, of course.

posted by Newbie on Feb 17, 2012 at 01:28:28 pm     #  

I was thinking of this - I have been traveling to a lot of downtowns lately and a few things I would like to see in downtown:

1) A very nice somewhat upscale restaurant. I know Rockwell's is pretty close, but it is not within walking distance of the hotels and the Warehouse District. It wouldn't need to be big, but something that would appeal to bigger spenders and the business diner. Unless I'm forgetting one or two, I can't think of one within walking distance there.

2) A Micro Brew. Again, Maumee Bay Brewing is in the vicinity, but just slightly out of the way. Some day when I have a lot of money, I will open one.

3) An Aquarium - something that would be in conjunction with UT or BG or both to do research but be open to the public to visit and be a part of. (wouldn't exactly fit the area, but something to consider close to the convention center).

I have others, but those are like my top 3.

posted by avinsurer on Feb 17, 2012 at 02:50:07 pm     #   1 person liked this

I agree with Newbie about the bar being too dark and closed up. I would love to see windows that are large and could open up in the summer that are screened like at Pizza Pappalis, but I realize in that area it is inviting vandalism. Another idea would be to have overheard door type walls that aren't made of glass that could open up in the summer.

What I wish a bar would do on St. Clair seat is to have roof top bleachers to view the game and fireworks. Several bars near wrigley field have bleachers on the top of their buildings, but am not sure if fans could get a view from the height of the buildings in that area or if there is some restriction in place by the mudhens.

One positive thing about Jeds was the parking lot. I normally walk with a friend, but for people that don't live downtown it was nice having a parking lot. Another profitable way to market Jeds would have been to offered free parking to the game or Huntington event with a $20 minimum food purchase.

posted by classylady on Feb 17, 2012 at 03:13:55 pm     #  

I never made it over there when it was Jed's. However, I was a frequent customer of the Durty Bird when it first opened.

I also was a frequent customer of the Jed's on Reynolds back then as well. The last time I ate at a Jed's was when it was still open in front of Northtowne. It seemed that the quality of the food had declined. I don't know if my tastes had changed, or if they were doing something different?

posted by mom2 on Feb 17, 2012 at 03:37:03 pm     #  

JOhio: Blarney and Papalis were both busy last night (I didn't make it to Forty-4).

They may have been busy earlier, but when I made it downtown at 12:15 they were closed. They weren't mopping the floor or counting the drawer, so they hadn't just closed. Papalis doesn't seem to make it to 10pm accept weekends, games, or concert nights. Blarney is busy on Fri & Sat nights. I don't really go to Table 44, but weeknights the place is dead or closed. The building owners at Table 44 currently are 13k behind in property tax payments, and they've owned the building less than 3 years. 610 Monroe for those who want to see it with their own eyes.

Imho, if an adult night life playground is thriving, it should still have buzz at a couple spots after 10pm with or without events, even during a couple weeknights.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 04:21:23 pm     #  

I don't know what the deal with them being behind on their tax payments, but I do know that they're doing well. They've poured quite a bit of the money generated by the downtown location to renovate the Chop House into a second Table Forty 4 spot.

They've done a heck of a job with 610 though, haven't they?

posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 04:35:07 pm     #  

6th - I think you are touching on a generational issue here. This city is generally of an older age and of a different type of worker. If you look at other cities where they have more younger professional type jobs, they have the spots open and hopping after 10pm. It all comes down to demographics. Toledo has an older demographic and the local places know that. Until we get a younger demographic living downtown, or in this area for that matter, it's going to be like this.

I still think the downtown is great, but I'm not going to be down there on a week night after midnight. So, I don't really mind this. However, if you work the second shift and don't get off until 10 or 11, I guess you would mind. But again, I don't see many entry level professional jobs down town that do this.

posted by avinsurer on Feb 17, 2012 at 04:38:56 pm     #  

AV, you make some excellent points here. Unfortunately, I think the casino is going to draw many people who were going out to eat and drink downtown.

The area leadership really dropped the ball having the casino located across the river. Many downtown business really could have used the increased foot traffic and buzz. However, the casino sure is happy with it's location.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 04:52:36 pm     #  

J83: They've done a heck of a job with 610 though, haven't they?

Yes, even a skeptic like myself will admit Table 44 is a nice spot. My guess is they really aren't doing too well, but I'm downtown later than most people. I don't know why people are so anxious to open discretionary spending businesses during this economy, but their effort is respected.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 17, 2012 at 04:57:52 pm     #  

one of my waitresses also works at table 44, and she claims they do a great evening business.

posted by upso on Feb 17, 2012 at 06:00:16 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/Food/2012/02/18/Longtime-Reynolds-Road-eatery-closes.html

Not a downtown eatery, but still another long-time, Toledo, business owner has thrown in the towel.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 18, 2012 at 04:23:24 am     #  

Avinsurer- Upscale restaurant will be there soon. Jefferson and superior in the Secor Building- Chef Erika from Art Museuum and Diva. Place looks incredible-got the tour last week. Great attention to detail and the menu looks just incredible. Look for a mid-March to late March opening http://registrybistro.com/

posted by ahmahler on Feb 18, 2012 at 11:23:09 am     #   2 people liked this

Awesome! Can't wait to find out more about it!

Definitely count me in the group that wants to see more high-end options in downtown. I really wish Ice (in the PNC/National City/Ohio Bank Building) would step it up a bit. For the building it's in and the style it's going for, that could be a really swanky joint. Instead, it's pretty run of the mill food.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 18, 2012 at 05:43:51 pm     #  

"1) A very nice somewhat upscale restaurant. I know Rockwell's is pretty close, but it is not within walking distance of the hotels and the Warehouse District. It wouldn't need to be big, but something that would appeal to bigger spenders and the business diner. Unless I'm forgetting one or two, I can't think of one within walking distance there."

Georgios next to the Valentine theater is an upscale restaurant in the downtown area.It is one of our favorites for a special occasion.

posted by buckeye278 on Feb 18, 2012 at 07:27:22 pm     #  

Heard from a very reliable source today that Dave Ball will be opening a restaurant in the former Jed's space.

posted by dell_diva on Feb 18, 2012 at 08:09:56 pm     #  

I heard it will focus on barbeque. As I said before, I hope they put some money into fixing it up inside and don't make it another burger- chicken chunk- wing place. Fingers crossed.

posted by Newbie on Feb 19, 2012 at 08:21:36 pm     #  

The first thing this city must do is keep the younger crowd in Toledo. My daughters and step sons moved away as soon as they graduated. The same with grandchildren. It all was for employment in their fields which didn't exist here. Two were engineers, one a doctor and one a computer science graduate. And this was back when there were jobs here if you wanted to work in the car industry.

Till jobs recover the flight of our young people will continue. And that leaves a lot of us old folks here. And the days are passed where we go downtown for dinner.

posted by jackie on Feb 19, 2012 at 09:22:20 pm     #  

Jackie - you are dead on correct - but, you see, here in Tole-duh, the only people that matter are those who are still working (or collecting rocking chair $$) and paying union dues.

'Cause those are the only ones the politicians seem to hear.

As for the mentality of Toledo voters who are responsible for the miserable economic condition of Toledo that causes the intelligent, educated young to flee, nothing proves the point more than the election of Edna Brown over Tom Wasniewski for State Senate.

posted by Foodie on Feb 19, 2012 at 09:50:41 pm     #  

The city government in Columbus is also worried about the loss of their bright young people immediately after graduation. If they can't hold 'em, no city in Ohio can. I think it's natural for young people to want to explore their geographical options. I couldn't wait to leave my college town right after school, and it's a thriving city in the sunbelt.

posted by viola on Feb 20, 2012 at 12:32:21 pm     #  

I know this thread bothers some of the downtown homers here, but if you see what appear to be hawks circling prey at Table 44, believe it.

Although people swear they are doing a great business and all is swell, I don't believe all is well at Table 44.

They are already 13k behind with property tax payments @ 610 Monroe Street, which was purchased less then 3 years ago, so they likely aren't doing as well as patrons and passerby folks believe.

This is a separate story, as today some of their employees were being questioned by state authorities regarding labor and wages.

I'm not saying a 44 closure is imminent, but it wouldn't surprise me if within the next year, Table 44 soon finds a place on the growing list of downtown watering hole/dining spot casualties.

We shall see if anything substantial comes from this labor and wages situation. However, if they aren't going to pay their owed property taxes, the city/county should force them to close, so the businesses paying their bills are can continue prospering.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 20, 2012 at 08:15:23 pm     #  

13k behind in property taxes? yikes!

so they haven't been paying since they opened? that seems really strange. where are you getting this information? I'm not doubting you... I just didn't realize this stuff was public record.

posted by upso on Mar 20, 2012 at 08:53:29 pm     #  

They did pay what they owed for the first half of this year, but basically they hadn't paid anything up to that point starting from when they purchased the building.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 20, 2012 at 08:59:06 pm     #  

Upso, look up 610 Monroe Street and see it for yourself. Easy Street owed 50k before they finally tanked. They owe 60k property taxes now @ 814 Washington Street and another 16k for 20 North Michigan, which is their parking area.

http://maps.co.lucas.oh.us/areis/areis.asp

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 20, 2012 at 09:05:01 pm     #  

I personally think The Blade needs to work with Anita Lopez's office and start publishing lists of businesses that owe large amounts of property taxes.

These deadbeats are being allowed to operate at an advantage to the businesses that are paying their bills and on time. If the county would padlock table 44, I bet they would quickly come up with that 13k to avoid the bad press. If they don't have 13k, they shouldn't be open anyway. They are stealing from all of us since the city either and/or has to provide less services or raises our taxes to cover costs.

Put their mugshots on tv and in the papers just like they do deadbeat dads once in a while.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 20, 2012 at 09:12:43 pm     #  

i'm surprised taxes are so high downtown, and also surprised they let you get so behind. the easy street numbers are frightening!

posted by upso on Mar 20, 2012 at 09:24:58 pm     #  

One day when your bored, research some of the properties along Monroe Street near Franklin Park and you'll know who won't have any clothes on the next time the tide changes.

Also, have a peek at some of the empty houses in your neighborhood and you'll know what bills neighbors left the rest of us to pay. In fact, many of them are still squatting/stealing until the sheriff finally knocks on the door demanding the keys.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 20, 2012 at 09:28:15 pm     #   2 people liked this

thank for the insight.

posted by upso on Mar 20, 2012 at 09:32:28 pm     #  

Here's something else for you to ponder Uspo. The Berdan Building owners owe more than 100k property taxes. Which is also why I believe so much press is given to why it "needs" to be developed. Essentially, they need a bailout and without it they are screwed. The current owners paid more than 1 million for that piece of crap building when they bought it from the Root family.

Your landlords have blood on their hands as well, regarding the Berdan Building. They dumped that for 1.1 million profit, but decided to hold onto all the surrounding property. How many phone calls and conversations at the golf course have they had trying to get that building developed on the tax payer's dime? My bet is plenty.

Savvy business if you can pull it off, but in my opinion it really does fail the smell test.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 20, 2012 at 09:40:01 pm     #  

Berdan Building is 1 South Erie 72k owed and 23 South Erie 27k owed.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 20, 2012 at 09:41:57 pm     #  

Wait....I thought everything was GREAT downtown? I thought Toledo was just a wonderful place to be young and grow a family? You mean the nightly shootings and stabbings are real? The nightly arson fires? The closing businesses?

posted by Star56 on Mar 20, 2012 at 09:57:54 pm     #  

Downtown has it's bright spots, but I do get sick of hearing about how rosy things are or soon will be.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 20, 2012 at 10:04:54 pm     #  

Of course, this ASSUMES that the auditor & tax dept are keeping the records and web site up-to-date too. I wouldn't necessarily believe what's on the site to be true.

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 20, 2012 at 10:21:58 pm     #  

Nightly arson fires downtown? Am I missing something??

posted by Brewster on Mar 21, 2012 at 07:27:36 am     #  

Nightly stabbing? I'm downtown a night or two a month...I haven't seen a fire or body yet.

posted by SensorG on Mar 21, 2012 at 08:18:03 am     #   2 people liked this

I've lived in or worked downtown for well over 10 years... I'm thinking I must live in a different Toledo than Star56.

posted by upso on Mar 21, 2012 at 08:40:29 am     #   2 people liked this

In fairness, Star56 can't tell the difference between Toledo, Spain and Toledo, Ohio.

http://toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/article/111294/Another_Not-So-Flattering_Reference_to_Toledo

Though I've spent time in Toledo, Spain and found it quite lovely.

Maybe he Star56 thinks this board is about Toledo, Iowa.

posted by SensorG on Mar 21, 2012 at 09:22:11 am     #   1 person liked this

Star56 posted at 09:57:54 PM on Mar 20, 2012:

Wait....I thought everything was GREAT downtown? I thought Toledo was just a wonderful place to be young and grow a family? You mean the nightly shootings and stabbings are real? The nightly arson fires? The closing businesses?

Consider the above source: the king-master of mass generalization Star56, who just said about Promenade Park:

How will they filter out the druggies, hobos and prostitutes that wander into the park whenever any event is scheduled there?

Star56 also recently started a nonsensical thread about a story from nearly 20 years ago that supposedly disparages Toledo.

On Feb 28, Star56 posted about the Westfield Mall:

Assaults in the parking lot are common place ...

Back in January, Star56 described downtown Toledo this way:

Dirty, nasty downtown Toledo with a Ho and pimp on the corner. Homeless degenerates drifting around.

Maybe it's Star56's magnetic charm that attracts the problems that he describes.

posted by jr on Mar 21, 2012 at 09:48:03 am     #   12 people liked this

I am totally surprised by some of the back property taxes due in Lucas County, wasn't the prior auditor turning them over to a collection agency or something I think along those lines. Some property taxes are close to the value of the property. I wonder what they are doing to collect now. This should be Blade front page news.

posted by Nyse on Mar 21, 2012 at 07:41:43 pm     #  

As someone with very close information on Table Forty 4, they're doing just fine. I don't know what the deal is with the $13K owed to the city, but they're paid up on everything else. And doing well enough to have refurbished the Maumee Chop House to be updated into a second Table Forty 4 location.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 21, 2012 at 11:05:12 pm     #  

So is it that local businesses just aren't being pursued by the city for taxes properly and "persuasively"? I was under the impression that if you didn't pay your property taxes, the city could put a lien on that property and take it from you?

posted by toledolen_ on Mar 22, 2012 at 12:40:07 am     #  

Well that amount is only one pay period delinquent. That would be like if a credit card company cancelled your card if you fell behind on it. If that happened, very few people would have credit cards anymore. It wouldn't behoove them to do that, because they'd lose too many customers who would otherwise make good on their debts. Now, if they hadn't paid up since '08 or something like that, then there would probably be more cause for concern.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 22, 2012 at 07:02:23 am     #  

Perhaps Table 44 is on the list of companies awaiting tax incentive refunds owed by the City of toledo. Article in the paper today says the city owes various companies up to $700K

posted by Hoops on Mar 22, 2012 at 07:22:04 am     #  

It isn’t specifically this restaurant, start clicking on Aeries downtown and all around Lucas County, business, LLC’s, private and be amazed at the amount of back property taxes owed. Some have paid nothing since 2008. The auditor should be asked the total amount in back taxes due in Lucas County and what steps are being implemented to address this situation.

posted by Nyse on Mar 22, 2012 at 07:30:22 am     #  

Comments above sent to Lucas County Auditor - Anita Lopez by the contact page. Very curious on what is being done to address back property tax in Lucas County and the total amount owed.

posted by Nyse on Mar 22, 2012 at 07:43:06 am     #  

How many local public officials are behind on their property/income/business/other taxes?

I would guess there are more than a few. And major incentive not to rock the boat chasing after others for their back taxes.

A wild speculation on my part. But with the city hurting for revenues, you'd think cleaning up the books would be something to do...

posted by oldhometown on Mar 22, 2012 at 08:41:27 am     #  

my property taxes are bundled into my mortgage payments (for my house)
I thought that was how it worked for everyone. is that not the case?

or should we assume if one is late on property taxes, they are also behind on mortgage payments?

posted by upso on Mar 22, 2012 at 08:51:41 am     #  

It depends on how your mortgage is set up. My old one was configured like yours upso. The one I have now is not so I pay my property taxes directly to the County.

posted by shamrock44 on Mar 22, 2012 at 08:58:56 am     #  

ah ok. makes sense

posted by upso on Mar 22, 2012 at 09:01:44 am     #  

Not necessarily, upso.

Many people pay property taxes from an escrow account through the mortgage company. (That's what's happening when you pay your mortgage payment each month - the company puts the portion for the property taxes into an escrow account, and then pays the property taxes in a lump sum when payment is due.)

However, it isn't mandatory to pay property taxes with your mortgage payments.

My mortgage company gave me a choice. I did go with the escrow though, because it was easier for me to include it in the check I was already writing every month. (As opposed to saving the money on my own and remembering to make the lump sum payment twice a year...not one of my strengths!)

posted by mom2 on Mar 22, 2012 at 09:06:05 am     #  

Most the time a lender charges you a higher rate if you do not escrow taxes and insurance as either of them not being paid is a liability for them.

posted by dbw8906 on Mar 22, 2012 at 09:14:33 am     #  

Points to consider

I find it shocking some of us find the property owners as thieves. We ought to have more concern about the thieves that take our money for allowing us the privilege of owning property. Where are the millions upon millions going and are we receiving adequate benefit for the dollars being confiscated.

A significant number of business' do not own the property they occupy, they lease.

It is common for taxes to not be paid during periods of property values being contested.

The difficulties of a business are not always tied to the viability of that sole business. It is common for business owners to have other interests and obligations that can eventually become enough to drag down a viable interest.

Change is constant, cities are organic. Places close, places open. It is undeniable bar and restaurant activity in downtown has increased dramatically over the last decade.

posted by MrGlass419 on Mar 22, 2012 at 11:15:45 am     #   3 people liked this

Well if you look at AREIS for table 44 you will notice they are listed as on a "DELINQUENT PAYMENT PLAN" and have made monthly payments every month for over a year. Also hard to tell due to the fact bars bury themselves behind LLC's but the owner on the building is not the name listed on the Liquor permit.

Really getting tired of Toledo's need to cheer for others to fail.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Mar 22, 2012 at 06:32:49 pm     #   1 person liked this

In not the fact that they cheer for others to fail, who they choose to fail. The same folks looking for Bell to fail wouldn't dream of Kaptur failing or most of the idiots running the city, its their team.

posted by Linecrosser on Mar 22, 2012 at 07:00:57 pm     #   1 person liked this

Wow that made no sense. It's not the fact that they cheer for others to fail, it's who they choose to wish to fail.

posted by Linecrosser on Mar 22, 2012 at 07:03:43 pm     #  

Johio83: Well that amount is only one pay period delinquent.

--------

Event though they are regularly paying something, the 13k owed is not equal to one bi-annual amount, it's equal to approximately 4 bi-annual payments or 2 years owed.

The property taxes are $3283 bi-annually and they owe 13k.

Again, many circumstances exist, but johio83 if they are doing as well as you say they are, they should pay the total amount.

To those who are upset about Toledo's need to "cheer others to fail" I equally am tired of Toledo's need to reward deadbeats on the backs of those paying their bills on time.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 23, 2012 at 05:22:47 am     #   1 person liked this

Places close, places open. It is undeniable bar and restaurant activity in downtown has increased dramatically over the last decade.

-----------

All they've really done is shuffle the same cards, moving them around and spending our money while making it appear they are "doing something." Before the stadium, Summit Street had 4 bars operating East of Cherry to the 280 bridge, and now all of them are closed. Also, Mickey Finns doesn't make nearly as much money (if any at all) as pre-stadium, and if not owned by a long-time owner, would have closed several years ago.

So, in my opinion without even considering decreased Maumee activity where the Hens used to play, any official bar count downtown at least should subtract 4 or 5 from the total to be accurate, just based on what has happened along Summit to the 280 bridge business activity.

Many of the downtown bars have closed and reopened. Eventually the places that already have tanked, but reopened several times won't be reopened.

I'm going to stick with my beliefs regarding that the casino is going to produce a lot of red ink for many night-themed downtown Toledo businesses (including the docks). However, it will be a year or maybe 2 years before the damage is apparent.

If downtown was such a money-making market as some of you folks claim, Toledo would have large hotels and restaurant chains standing and waiting in line to do business downtown. The fact is downtown still is a small-time, low-dollar market, which is why the big-timers aren't here nor will they be any time soon...get over it already. It's also one of the many reasons why the casino wasn't built downtown.

I do admire, respect, and share some of your love for Toledo. Where we differ is I prefer to view things as they are, rather than how I would like them to be or they otherwise "should be." Also, some of us just refuse to continue believing the same bullshit plans we've been hearing about FOR YEARS from the Toledo political machine, and it's pom-pom, peanut gallery. Ignorance really is bliss, I suppose.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 23, 2012 at 06:11:29 am     #   2 people liked this

Len, eventually the county will move to foreclose because of unpaid property taxes, but the 13k owed at 610 Monroe only is about 6% of the property's purchase price in April, 2009.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 23, 2012 at 06:27:07 am     #   1 person liked this

I am a longtime lurker on this board...in fact I read it everyday. While we are on the subject of back taxes, here are two (as a longtime south Toledo resident) that really disturb me.

1. The Genesis "DreamPlex," located at 2429 S Reynolds. Former Holiday Inn. They owe approximately $710,000 in back taxes.

2. The former Clarion Hotel, located at 2340 South Reynolds. They owe approximately $210,000 in back taxes. Broken windows, uncut grass too.

These two properties owe the city $920,000. At $90,000 each counting benefits (I am estimating on the high side to make my math simple), they owe enough to put 9 police offers on the streets for a year.

Why aren't these taxes being collected? Is the city afraid of the backlash of the constituents of the Genesis Dreamplex?

That is a lot of cash to leave on the table...

posted by Dappling2 on Mar 23, 2012 at 11:53:47 am     #  

My guess is there is no means to repay the taxes. Then city is forced to foreclose on worthless properties that would not sell. They are then forced to maintain the properties.

posted by slowsol on Mar 23, 2012 at 01:12:19 pm     #  

slowsol, why not foreclose and sell them at any price, even giving them away if no cash bids, which is unlikely for the above-mentioned Reynolds Road properties?

Let the market work, crashing the prices if necessary, so someone else can buy delinquent properties, and start paying the needed property taxes.

Dappling2, thanks for posting as I have never researched the Reynolds/Southwyck area, but I'm sure many properties owe greater than 100k. Just about every office building along that Southwyck loop has a for sale/lease sign on the front lawn.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 23, 2012 at 01:50:19 pm     #  

OHT: How many local public officials are behind on their property/income/business/other taxes?

--------

I don't know about business properties, but I've searched every city council member, the mayor, fire and police chiefs, and they always have been paid in full. Ray Kest making headlines for his indebtedness probably helps.

However, I have noticed a few "community leaders and organizations" who at various times have been delinquent.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 23, 2012 at 02:02:38 pm     #  

Genesis Dreamplex...$710,000 <sigh>...

Another "Christian" business that apparently doesn't read the Bible for those things that Jesus guy said.

Pay your taxes, bunch of phonies...

Mark 12:17

Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.

posted by oldhometown on Mar 23, 2012 at 02:09:15 pm     #  

A NY based hospitality corporation bought 2340 Reynolds in December 2010 for 1.16 million, and hasn't paid a cent of taxes since the purchase.

The Dreamplex owners have only paid FIVE thousand property taxes since mid-2008 and purchased it in 2006. They still are behind hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I agree Anita Lopez needs to dance with TB and TV stations and put these deadbeats on blast.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:28 pm     #  

Some thoughts and observations, not sure how correct any of these are. Anyone feel free to jump in with additional information.

1. If you are contesting your tax liability to the city, and therefore have not paid yet, does the auditor's site list you as being delinquent? Everyone can appeal the amount they owe and how it is assessed, correct?

2. Locking the doors to a place is a sure way to ensure it will never generate any tax dollars. Such a notion could only work on the premise that all business owners are sitting on piles of liquid assets, which I can assure you, they are not.

3. The complex relationships that can develop between a building owner and their commercial tenants. If the tenants are in arrears, maybe the owner doesn't have the cash to pay the taxes. See number 3 as to why the owner wouldn't kick them out. Finding new commercial tenants is probably very hard; keeping someone who tries to pay all they owe might be a better option to some building owners.

4. The complex relationships that can develop between the business community, the auditor and other public officials, and the constituents. No public official wants to be seen as being business hostile to the business community or the city at large, even in Toledo. If a huge tax lien goes onto a building, it will discourage a future purchaser. I believe a lot of these liens are forgiven if you are willing to invest enough into a business.

posted by brainswell on Mar 23, 2012 at 02:30:49 pm     #  

Brainswell, do you think the citizens should be made aware of property owners who owe excessive amounts of delinquent property taxes, with "excessive" being decided by the auditor's office and city leaders?

Personally, since the city has increased fees to continue providing certain services (potholes, water, garbage) I would like to know who owes large amounts of delinquent property taxes, and reading this thread I don't think I'm alone. Additionally, I generally would prefer to spend my dollars at businesses that are paying their bills on time.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 23, 2012 at 02:37:31 pm     #  

I would have no problem with the auditors posting a list of properties (by address) that are behind on their taxes more than X % of the appraised value of the property, granted that there are no pending disputes over the amount owed.

posted by brainswell on Mar 23, 2012 at 03:40:04 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 01:50:19 PM on Mar 23, 2012:

slowsol, why not foreclose and sell them at any price, even giving them away if no cash bids, which is unlikely for the above-mentioned Reynolds Road properties?

Let the market work, crashing the prices if necessary, so someone else can buy delinquent properties, and start paying the needed property taxes.

Dappling2, thanks for posting as I have never researched the Reynolds/Southwyck area, but I'm sure many properties owe greater than 100k. Just about every office building along that Southwyck loop has a for sale/lease sign on the front lawn.

No reason not to. There is a considerable risk that the property would get no offers. The tax and maintenance bill would be heavy, especially in an area that has seen little positive commercial growth. You have to hope (pray) that someone is willing to buy. But what if they don't? Then the county is stuck with a property that they have to maintain and they cannot give away. Take a look at Detroit. There are buildings in Detroit that they have tried to give away to developers and could not.

posted by slowsol on Mar 23, 2012 at 03:50:12 pm     #  

A list of properties with back taxes is published in the Blade every Nov, I even see the one for 2010 by a google search, but can not find the 2011 one. http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2010/11/06/Late-taxes-reaching-over-9M-in-Lucas-County.html. One was published in 2011 in the Blade even though I can not find that link. I think the problem is that a lot of these owners are hidden so deep in LLC's, that they are difficult to track down. This forum has shed some daylight on the problem and I think the auditor's office and Treasurer's office are aware of problems and have been working on them.

posted by Nyse on Mar 23, 2012 at 04:40:30 pm     #  

6th floor you just spent your time talking about closed bars in Maumee and outside of downtown. The statement you quoted was

"Places close, places open. It is undeniable bar and restaurant activity in downtown has increased dramatically over the last decade."

It is undeniable don't shift the discussion.

posted by MrGlass419 on Mar 23, 2012 at 10:42:13 pm     #  

We're upset Genesis Dreamplex owes $710,000 in back property taxes? How in the world did our county assess $710,000 of taxes on a property that holds little to no value. The outrage should be directed at anyone that expects $710,000 to be handed over for the privilege to own property. $710,000? Absoulte insanity. You wonder why business activity is stalled? $710,000? Anyone ready to open a business and write that check? Might as well let the Reynolds corridor revert to farmland. Do we want jobs or social services. I guess its ok as long as they're not demanding your money right?

posted by MrGlass419 on Mar 23, 2012 at 10:58:50 pm     #  

What are you suggesting MrGlass419? That businesses shouldn't pay taxes? Are you suggesting that those buildings have no value?

Slowsol...basically you are suggesting that Toledo should never pursue delinquent property taxes because the city might get stuck with the maint. costs of unsellable buildings?

I must be a schmuck. I dutifully pay my property taxes 2x per year. Based upon Glass and Slowsol I should cease and desist immediately.

posted by Dappling2 on Mar 23, 2012 at 11:13:50 pm     #   1 person liked this

Dappling2... a fresh voice of reason on ToledoTalk. Welcome!!

posted by dell_diva on Mar 23, 2012 at 11:30:57 pm     #  

I'm posting the obvious, $710,000 is insanity. Will anyone ever purchase the property and provide jobs if it creates those obligations? Keep assessing outrageaous amounts and wonder why that entire corridor will lay barren? No one can dutifully pay their 2k a year if they can't find employment. Yes taxes have an impact on the valuaton of a property. Have you attempted to finance a home or business? It is absolutely taken into account in the valuation process. You can place taxes at a rate that effectively make a property worthless.

The current situation is we're collecting no tax on the property by making it prohibitively expensive for anyone to operate from it. We're creating no jobs, and we have had consistently high unemployment.

You think we're on the right path with that? Let's please not use the schumck bait as I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the comments.

posted by MrGlass419 on Mar 23, 2012 at 11:32:26 pm     #  

$710,000 is a cumulative amount...the Genesis Dreamplex has paid very little since they purchased the place in 2006. That is not the amount that is due every half.

The Reverend Culp's Church is venturing into the hotel business. I wonder if the city's lack of action is tied to their perception of political fallout if they pursue a business that is controlled by a heavy hitter in the local community.

BTW, to add fuel to the fire, the Department of Neighborhoods has given the Genesis Dreamplex a grant...so the taxpayers are doubly losing.

posted by Dappling2 on Mar 24, 2012 at 07:21:42 am     #  

Dappling2 posted at 11:13:50 PM on Mar 23, 2012:

What are you suggesting MrGlass419? That businesses shouldn't pay taxes? Are you suggesting that those buildings have no value?

Slowsol...basically you are suggesting that Toledo should never pursue delinquent property taxes because the city might get stuck with the maint. costs of unsellable buildings?

I must be a schmuck. I dutifully pay my property taxes 2x per year. Based upon Glass and Slowsol I should cease and desist immediately.

I'm not suggesting that. I am simply stating an opinion on why the auditor probably does not pursue properties that are this delinquent with little value. I pay my taxes as well. It annoys me as much as anyone else that others don't.

posted by slowsol on Mar 24, 2012 at 09:23:45 am     #  

If the back taxes are really high/owed for a really long period, then do one of the following:

1) Seize the property and sell it at sheriff's auction for taxes owed.
2) Retroactively re-assess the property value and re-calculate back taxes as a special one-off deal.
3) Come up with a payment plan.
4) Streamline adverse possession in cases where taxes are owed, such that anyone adversely possessing/maintaining the property can have a court transfer deed to them upon X number of years maintaining property while the deed-holder failed to pay taxes, and as part of transfer of deed the adverse owner pays a negotiated portion of back taxes.

Effectively, some of the now-empty lots from abandoned homes, some of the empty commercial properties, and so on would be turned over to the people who have been working their butts off fighting the blight on the cheap, and other people now have a reason to mow empty lots or slap some cheap paint on an eyesore. I say if they do the maintenance for 3 years and the property owner's been contacted repeatedly about failure to maintain the property and pay taxes, it's time to turn it over to someone who's busted their butt on it.

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 24, 2012 at 12:20:25 pm     #  

The property valuation is $2,750,000? Absolute Farce.

You are upset they don't pay taxes and like paying yours?
Is this what they do with your taxes.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1La7gOcBNNA

http://itstime4change.hubpages.com/hub/Was-Toledos-Investment-in-Genisis-Village-a-Good-Investment

posted by MrGlass419 on Mar 24, 2012 at 12:30:29 pm     #   1 person liked this

Thanks 419. That infuriates me. $600,000 of OUR money that was doled out. Where is the oversight? Where is the accountability? Where did the money go?

posted by Dappling2 on Mar 24, 2012 at 02:31:34 pm     #   1 person liked this

That is unbelievable - though it is pure Toledo. Our own local version of crony capitalism.

$600 large to a "qualified" scam artist - and we continue to drive on third world roads.

But, once again Toledoans, keep voting those same idiot council members back in and you can be assured of more of the same.

posted by Foodie on Mar 25, 2012 at 06:05:17 am     #   3 people liked this

419, the discussion has been ongoing and evolving in this thread for greater than a year. I briefly mentioned Maumee. Others here have bashed me for focusing too much only with downtown businesses that close. What I pointed out is moving a stadium from the outskirts of the city to downtown, merely shifted economic activity from other locations to downtown.

Also, while I'm fully aware that Summit east of Cherry isn't officially downtown, it's close enough to be part of any downtown bar scene discussion. Similarly the docks and empty marina district, and uptown are included. It's obvious that several bars along Summit Street have closed in recent years.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 25, 2012 at 09:17:43 pm     #  

Spoke with a friend of mine in-the-know, and he said the Standart Lofts (Triangle Building) have already leased out 68 of the 75 units! Considering they've only been on the market for a couple months, I think that is extremely impressive.

A friend of mine is looking to move downtown, and has been in contact with a few of the apartment complexes. In terms of single bedroom apartments, both the Hillcrest and Commodore Perry have told him they have no openings right now, and LaSalle only had one for him to check out.

In my eyes, these are about as clear-cut as you can get in terms of indications that downtown is on the rise. People can cite bar or restaurant closings or things like that all they want, but there's simple math here: the number of residences keeps going up, and the vacancy rate keeps staying low.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 29, 2012 at 12:30:27 pm     #  

Xerox has left the building...

801 Washington St. is completely empty, and the owners of the building say that they have nobody lined up or even interested in leasing it. The majority of the 65 employees (peaked at 80+ in 2006) have lost their jobs and only a skeleton crew have been retained in a small office (not in downtown) to keep a local account going. Eating lunch in downtown Toledo was a regular outing - especially Michaels on Monroe and Superior. Anytime visitors came (i.e. from world headquarters), PJs Deli, Pizza Papalis, Jimmy Johns, or even Packo's at the Park would have a massive order for a week straight that would total at least $200 per visit. Depending on season, these visitors would also be taken to Mudhens or Walleye games while staying at the Crowne Plaza (or whatever it's called these days). Also gone are the few Mudhens season ticket holders who use to purchase them because they would be able to park for free at 801 Washington St. and only walk a couple blocks to the stadium. Other companies also took a hit from losing Xerox because they are no longer needed - Romanoff, IPS, Forklifts of Toledo, Aramark, Toledo Cleaning Services, and Guardian Alarm just to name a few. And how I can forget the Shell gas station on Monroe St where a lot of the employees would go fill their gas tank and grab a snack or two.

posted by odnation on Mar 29, 2012 at 02:41:32 pm     #   2 people liked this

Thanks for posting that information OD. Toledo suffers another private employer downsizing, and downtown has another large (100,000 sq. ft.) moth-balled building.

The few, but vocal fans of downtown are probably already anxious to lease/purchase apartments if/when built at the location.

The building was purchased for 850k in July 2009 and the 6 month taxes are 12,800. That's a hunk to eat without a tenant paying rent. The tax payments are paid in full to date.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 29, 2012 at 03:48:56 pm     #  

Who cares that another business has left downtown? Haven't ya heard that residential is booming??

posted by dell_diva on Mar 29, 2012 at 04:19:03 pm     #  

I heard Trotters Tavern on Heatherdowns and Reynolds has been sold… Trotters is my hang out bar, I hope it stays open, but I feel bad, I really liked the owners and it’s a great place for big band and live jazz. Also, I doing shots with the bar tender makes up for the hit and miss service even the regulars got.

posted by SensorG on Apr 04, 2012 at 03:16:47 pm     #  

Yes, the service part... that's always been my dilemma with Trotters. I've always enjoyed my food there (the brown jug steak is freakin awesome, and I could start every meal with their scotch eggs). But the service has consistently been among the worst I've ever received. Always slow, even when it isn't busy, and they never seem to care that it's slow. They act like you're hassling them if you ask about the order you placed 45 minutes ago. So, long story short, hopefully the change in ownership will result in the same caliber of meal with better service!

posted by Johio83 on Apr 04, 2012 at 04:32:55 pm     #  

Agreed..we used to go there. We quit because of the service. It got to the point where I would order three beers, knowing that it would be a good 45 minutes before I would see the waitress again. I never understand why service is like that. If I was a waitperson, i would hustle in the pursuit of tips.

posted by Dappling2 on Apr 04, 2012 at 09:52:58 pm     #  

Marilyn's on Monroe looks like it has closed.

I refuse to believe Toledo's downtown is thriving, when the only downtown go-go bar has closed. LOL

posted by 6th_Floor on Apr 18, 2012 at 03:37:56 pm     #  

More single mothers working their way thru school are now out of work

posted by Hoops on Apr 18, 2012 at 07:42:04 pm     #  

if in fact marilyn's IS closed, i see it as a good thing. the attractions coming into downtown (ball park, arena, restaurants) are all family friendly. i never understood why they dumped so much money into something the city tried so hard to get out of downtown in the first place.

from the stories I've heard, the place is / was a dump.

posted by upso on Apr 18, 2012 at 08:20:08 pm     #   1 person liked this

Upso, after seeing it dark for more than a month, it looks like Marilyn's is closed.

I stopped at Durty Bird yesterday for a few cold ones, and noticed that the Ahava Wellness Center/Spa on St. Clair, next to Homeslice Pizza has closed.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 15, 2012 at 01:10:22 pm     #  

I thought Ahava was still open, Upso do you know? I do konw they are not open on Mondays.

http://www.ahavaspa.com/index.php

posted by glasscityguy on May 15, 2012 at 01:50:47 pm     #  

There is a for rent sign in the window. Maybe they are renting space within their space?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 15, 2012 at 02:16:18 pm     #  

Ahava is still open as far as I know.

posted by upso on May 15, 2012 at 03:05:04 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 02:16:18 PM on May 15, 2012:

There is a for rent sign in the window. Maybe they are renting space within their space?

In general, it's not unusual for salons/spas to rent booth space to someone who is an independent contractor instead of employing that person directly.

Don't know if that's the case here, but it's possible.

posted by mom2 on May 15, 2012 at 03:11:03 pm     #  

I hate seeing this topic hit the top... I was probably one of the few who really loved Easy Street, and really wants their name plate off the wall. I see this thread and think, wow maybe someone bought it and is reopening it. Nope. It's about a spa closing possibly.

posted by smbfc on May 15, 2012 at 05:22:52 pm     #  

Ahava is still open. What has the for rent sign in the window is in between Home Slice and Ahava. It may still be part of their space and for rent.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 15, 2012 at 06:21:46 pm     #  

Has anyone else heard that ye olde c 'n' b will be opening this week?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 15, 2012 at 06:34:13 pm     #   2 people liked this

I haven't heard anything, but I walked by it today and it looks like it is getting close to opening.

posted by edg1262000 on May 15, 2012 at 07:24:22 pm     #   1 person liked this

Jim said he was planning to open tomorrow, but that was last week.

posted by Brewster on May 15, 2012 at 10:00:08 pm     #  

I was told that the city inspectors have been ridiculously nitpicking Jim Mettler prior to being to open the Ye Olde C&B.

He's already lost a few large Spring draw events...including approximately 1/3 of the baseball home games.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2012 at 11:40:11 am     #  

Agreed smbfc, jr can this thing be locked? This horse has been beaten dead.

6th_floor create a new topic for christ sakes if you find the need to report on every business closing. (or ones you hope are closed.)

posted by glasscityguy on May 24, 2012 at 12:08:08 pm     #  

GCG, I would think if this bothers you so much, not opening the thread would be easier than making another ignorant comment.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2012 at 12:13:11 pm     #  

Well, I think the only real problem is the title of the thread. The topics in it are still pertinent, basically a thread that would be better titled "openings/closings in downtown"

posted by Johio83 on May 24, 2012 at 12:29:30 pm     #   1 person liked this

"city inspectors have been ridiculously nitpicking Jim Mettler"
That's par for the course when dealing with city inspectors. I think they'd be happier if no businesses opened in Toledo. The inspection department is a hindrance to city development... very difficult and dictatorial organization.

posted by pete on May 24, 2012 at 01:00:45 pm     #  

Ignorant like how you assumed Ahava was closed? Ignorant, meaning lacking in knowledge or training, unlearned, unaware? That type of ignorant?

As Johio has pointed out I do not think it makes sense to continue to use this post with a title about “Easy Street Bar” to continue brining up new topics.

posted by glasscityguy on May 24, 2012 at 01:47:57 pm     #   1 person liked this

GCG, you already know it is no longer about Easy Street and now has turned into a general thread about local businesses closing mostly focused with downtown.

Did you read johio's post? The topic(s) in this thread are still pertinent.

Quit acting like a punk, crying to jr about this thead, and either add something related to the thread or ignore it.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2012 at 02:12:21 pm     #   1 person liked this

Boys ... my scrolling fingers get sore trying to find the business end of this thread. I vote for a new start, instead of checking comment #302 and higher.

posted by viola on May 24, 2012 at 05:56:04 pm     #   2 people liked this

I agree Viola. It would also make it easier to search for in the future if it was it's own thread.

posted by slowsol on May 24, 2012 at 06:53:45 pm     #  

Drove by this morning and noticed that the Easy Street building now has a SOLD sign on it.

posted by idinspired on Nov 28, 2012 at 12:07:23 pm     #  

Anyone have plans for the two year anniversary of this thread? Man, these topics just grow up so fast.

posted by hank on Nov 28, 2012 at 12:11:56 pm     #   1 person liked this

Easy Street building now has a SOLD sign on it

Yeah. So? It's undoubtedly another fool looking to lose money.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 28, 2012 at 01:05:27 pm     #  

GZ you seem rather pessimistic. You're not a believer in the potential of the WHD?

posted by BusterBluth on Nov 28, 2012 at 01:29:27 pm     #  

I noticed "sold" was pasted on the for sale sign earlier this month. Hopefully the new owner didn't pay more than half the previous sale price.

Anyway, thanks for the laugh bumping this. I was waiting for the next bar/rest to open.

I also noticed last week that the building housing "Quimbys" is for sale. The place has been consistently dead and obviously losing money. So, even the "rich guy" owner who allegedly wouldn't mind losing money has a limit to what he's willing to lose before throwing in the towel.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 28, 2012 at 01:39:58 pm     #  

KWI50 on Feb 17th 2012:

All lot of good points here, i just wasted alomost a half hour at work reading them!

David Ball seems like a legit successfull business man!

And John Bates too, Quimby's will never close, i actually like there layout better than table 44 and blarney, just for some reason they dont fill up like those spots, cause they dont market at all...deep pockets!!

I enjoy this thead and the docks & bigz saga the most!! It seem watering holes create a lot of buzz, just wait till the casino opens and the buzz starts...

-------

It appears Mr. Deep Pockets, aka John Bates has other plans, thinks a good price can be fetched for the building, or simply no longer buys into the WHD fantasy.

The casino has been open 6 months...and it hasn't created a lick of buzz with downtown. Heck, even the casino mgt admits it has performed "below expectations." Hopefully, nobody is holding their breath waiting either.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 28, 2012 at 01:56:08 pm     #  

"The casino has been open 6 months...and it hasn't created a lick of buzz with downtown"

Hmmmmm........wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the collective genius didn't locate the thing downtown to begin with? Nah, must be some other reason.

posted by Foodie on Nov 28, 2012 at 03:10:59 pm     #  

"It appears Mr. Deep Pockets, aka John Bates has other plans"

Keep in mind that the deep pockets are actually his father's - the other John Bates.

Perhaps the depth of his pockets have been decreasing.

posted by Foodie on Nov 28, 2012 at 03:12:48 pm     #  

"... wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the collective genius didn't locate the thing downtown to begin with."

Nope. The casinos are not designed to help other businesses. If a potential casino patron is dining or being entertained elsewhere, then that's less money spent in the casino. Being located next to I-75, away from a gaggle of other entertainment-type businesses makes sense for the casino owners. People exit the highway and practically turn right into the casino. They drop coin in the casino, leave, get back on the highway, and head home. Simple and effective.

posted by jr on Nov 28, 2012 at 03:40:21 pm     #  

jr posted at 02:40:21 PM on Nov 28, 2012:

"... wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the collective genius didn't locate the thing downtown to begin with."

Nope. The casinos are not designed to help other businesses. If a potential casino patron is dining or being entertained elsewhere, then that's less money spent in the casino. Being located next to I-75, away from a gaggle of other entertainment-type businesses makes sense for the casino owners. People exit the highway and practically turn right into the casino. They drop coin in the casino, leave, get back on the highway, and head home. Simple and effective.

That, and hey, you WANT it somewhere that's visible to lots of passing traffic. That is free advertising right there. There was plenty of land for Bass Pro to build on in the Crossroads area. There's a reason they built right next to I-75.

posted by anonymouscoward on Nov 28, 2012 at 05:12:12 pm     #  

I fully understand all the reasons that Penn National wanted to locate where they did. Did we (the Royal, collective we) have no say in where it was located? Seems I recall that one of the restrictions was that no hotel could be constructed in close proximity to the casino for fear of drawing that business away from downtown. I may not be remembering that accurately.

Am I alone in thinking that having the casino downtown would have been more of a benefit for Toledo and the county? Die hard gamblers will find a casino regardless. Seems to me it would have been a plus to also attract those downtown for other reasons who may not normally seek out a casino. And, at the same time, generate considerable foot traffic for existing downtown businesses or create a need for new ones.

On the flip side, last time I went through Detroit's Greektown - which was a favorite haunt of mine back in the day - I noticed many of my former favorite restaurants were OOB. Due to the Greektown Casino? Or just Detroit's plethora of problems? I have no idea.

posted by Foodie on Nov 28, 2012 at 05:41:46 pm     #  

Excerpts from a Nov 25, 2012 Toledo Blade story about the casino's impact on local businesses.

When Ohio voters gave casino gambling the go-ahead back in 2009, they also voted in the Bulldog Diner. “I waited until the casino levy was passed and the site was picked and then I picked this spot just for that reason,” said Rob Socie, who opened the small diner on Rossford’s Superior Street in April, 2010.

“I have to admit, I’m a little bit disappointed in the amount of patrons we’re getting that are coming here to eat. But we’re getting them, and we’re getting them almost daily,” he said. “The numbers are real small, a couple here, a couple there, but I think a year from now that will have grown.”

The diner is a short, European walk away from the casino. It's tough to get an external eatery much closer to the casino.

Six months after the Hollywood Casino Toledo first opened its doors, many area business owners and tourism groups say that while the casino isn’t going to make them rich, it is generating a small but noticeable increase in business.

So far, no one has done any research into how many dollars the casino has generated for the area economy. Downtown Rossford businesses say they are not seeing a large bump from casino patrons.

Concerns that Hollywood Casino’s four in-house restaurants would take business away from establishments in downtown Toledo also seem to have evaporated for the time being. “I’m a regular at the downtown restaurants,” Mr. Wersell said. “As a customer I’ve gotten to know a lot of the owners. Nobody’s complained that the casino has taken their business way.”

No talk about whether the casino has improved business for some in downtown Toledo.

Carla Whiteman has tended bar at Danny’s Cafe in Rossford off and on since 2000. On a recent Monday evening, she pointed to the row of empty bar stools when asked how the casino had affected the bar’s business. “It’s definitely had a negative impact,” she said. “A lot of our regulars are going there.”

Tony Mansell, operator of Manta Cars, a taxi service based about a half-mile from the casino, said he picks up some business from the casino now and then, but it hasn’t provided him any big jump in fares. “It has helped some ... but I don’t think it’s made a lot of people a lot of money,” he said. “It certainly hasn’t made me any money.”

Mr. McGrady runs the Cold Stone Creamery & Blimpie located off Fremont Pike in Rossford — about seven miles away from the casino. He thinks it unlikely many out-of-town visitors are going to venture down to his store. But he does offer 10 percent off to casino employees.

Overall, hotel occupancy in Lucas County’s 44 hotels is up five percent year-over-year. Rich Nachazel, president of Destination Toledo Inc., the area's convention and visitors bureau, said some of that is attributable to the casino, though there are other factors as well.


Nov 13, 2012 WWLP story titled Casino bringing excitement, opportunity, but not solving all city of Toledo's problems. WWPL is located in Massachusetts.

22News headed to Toledo, Ohio to see how the community has changed since a $320 million casino was built there. We chose to come to this city in Ohio’s northewestern corner due to its similarities to Springfield. The metropolitan areas of Toledo and Springfield are almost the same size, and the unemployment rate for both was over 14% a few years ago.

Toledo [Rossford] restaurant owner Rob Socie told 22News that he has been getting customers coming in who had been visiting the casino, but he hasn’t seen a huge influx of casino workers coming-in to eat.

“That has been disappointing, for that many employees, we thought we'd be getting more employees or we're getting very few. I guess they have a big cafeteria down there and they give their employees food discounts, so there's not a whole lot of reason for them to come off-site,” Socie said.

posted by jr on Nov 28, 2012 at 06:37:31 pm     #  

Well the racetrack will be gone and then when the casino fails, there will be 2 holes instead of 1. Should of built it next to the docks with no eateries inside. Nice view across from downtown.

posted by Linecrosser on Nov 28, 2012 at 07:00:26 pm     #  

I do like that so far it seems the casino's plan to isolate itself has somewhat backfired.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 28, 2012 at 07:30:02 pm     #  

Hi 6th. Backfired, in what regard? Between valet parking, a nice comfortable bar, games and tables galore and several restaurants, people do not leave unless they are going home.

It seems like bulldog diner's business plan included having people leave a casino and jog 3/4 mile to his facility for a plate of hash; he was 100% wrong.

I might gamble more than the average Joe, but I leave a casino only if I'm A) late for an appointment or B) tapped out. In either event, I am not looking for a snack.

posted by jimavolt on Nov 28, 2012 at 10:35:43 pm     #   1 person liked this

I just heard on the news that the Easy Street is going to be converted to townhouses.

posted by michl on Nov 29, 2012 at 11:26:12 pm     #  

Meanwhile, the Willis Day building on Washington and Ontario is still empty ever since Xerox and their employees vacated back in February.

posted by odnation on Nov 30, 2012 at 02:24:59 am     #  

http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/20223649/easy-street-cafe-to-become-townhouses

Holy Toledo! They paid 75k for the property. It previously was purchased for 500k.

Now that's what I call allowing the market to properly operate. Flush out the weak hand that paid too much and move the assets into stronger hands at whatever price the market will bear.

75k is a real bargain for the property imo. Congratulations to the new owners.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 30, 2012 at 04:04:16 am     #  

Residential makes a boat load of sense as there is currently a lot of demand! That's a steal and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with the place!

posted by upso on Nov 30, 2012 at 07:40:58 am     #  

Townhouses would be interesting, but the news said they would be renting for $1000 - $1300 a month. Would people actually pay that to live in downtown Toledo?

posted by JeepMaker on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:44:14 am     #  

People are already paying a lot more than that. Yes I do believe there is demand for that price point.

posted by upso on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:58:58 am     #   4 people liked this

2,000 sq ft townhouse with 2 car garage renting for 1,000-1300 per month easily will fill.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 30, 2012 at 11:27:01 am     #  

Nice try, Upso. Toledo is in a huge glut of housing. And if DT Toledo was such a great place for move-ins, why have all those condos and apartments gone LMHA or Sec8? Obviously there's a big gap between expectations and reality there.

This is just more money looking desperately for any rate of return, since the government has criminally held down interest rates. The real demand for money is huge, and so are the concomitant risks. Interest rates are the price of money, and should reflect demand and risk, as does any pricing model. So they should commonly be above 10%, not hovering near 0. We're following Japan's corruption plan.

Desperate moves are foolish. Corruption this deep will only end badly. But I wouldn't expect you to understand, Upso.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 30, 2012 at 02:20:29 pm     #  

"But I wouldn't expect you to understand, Upso."

GuestZero, can you elaborate? Why would a downtown business owner/operator not understand downtown development?

posted by jr on Nov 30, 2012 at 02:47:02 pm     #  

"Meanwhile, the Willis Day building on Washington and Ontario is still empty ever since Xerox and their employees vacated back in February."

Hey, no worries Odnation! According to Upso, we can just renovate that huge building into yet more condos or townhouses or apartments or something like that. There's apparently "a lot of demand". LOL! Seen big crowds of Chinese on the downtown streets of Toledo? Anyone?

Prices for housing across Toledo will only continue to fall. This is a general economic collapse, aiming towards the outcome of Detroit's obliterated residential blocks. The city crooks (i.e. politicians and officials) can't demo housing fast enough to restrain the huge glut, just like happened in Detroit (and is still happening). Heck, according to numerous sources, about 90% of the housing that you DO see empty, isn't being put up for sale. It's called "shadow inventory". Check it out; unless your fingers are broken, you can use Google. Banks used to be tasked to clear out property that it held, by law. The Congress stopped pressing the issue when it became obvious just how huge the housing crash was across the nation. Pure corruption.

But the properties are still there. It's still idled supply. It's like a mountain of gold under a tarp behind a coin shop that doles out a coin here and there for an absurd price per. Since property requires maintenance and is still taxed, the carrying costs will force dumping it on the market sooner or later.

Price falls will be met with demand snapping it up, but that relaxes demand, and then more price falls will happen. The same market forces that built inflation will now build deflation. To a certain extent, 6F is right about fit. But the overall direction for prices is DOWN. And that's not what most property buyers are in the game for. They expect prices to go UP. They don't buy to use, so much as to re-sell.

And going UP won't happen in our middle-aged lifetimes. For we middle-aged people, the property market is over. If you were trying to play the game (as if property is some sort of game; I spit on it) then your time passed around 2007 or so. It's over. Sane men should plan accordingly.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 30, 2012 at 02:53:17 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Why would a downtown business owner/operator not understand downtown development?"

Jr, I've tried to explain this particular mental block for what, nine years now? Why do grown adults believe in the economic equivalent of the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus? In a world with finite energy supplies, exploited at a certain economic level, you can't keep having economic growth. The way Americans consume (20% of the world's energy supplies using only 4.5% of the world's population) means that there must be an energy crisis of a very final nature.

There's a limit to growth. And we kept using credit to exceed that rate, which only meant that when growth stopped, it had to stop in a more brutal fashion. Detroit and Toledo are showcases of what that braking process looks like. Rusted out hellholes, packed with welfare recipients, Liberals, union crooks and the dust of fleeing Whites (who are in such deep debts themselves that their exoburbs will become the new ghettos).

I've talked to another blogger about these issues, and I'm wondering what the picture looks like downtown with property taxes in arrears. Anyone want to start talking about that? How much PT did the ESC owe by the time it closed? Aren't huge pending PT bills a good indication of failed business development? In fact, are ANY indications whatsoever, that people are looking at? That people would even agree on? We've already blinded ourselves to the most fundamental economic indicator of all, the collapse of manufacturing.

posted by GuestZero on Nov 30, 2012 at 03:06:07 pm     #  

Downtown apartments and condos have gone section 8 or lmha? Since when? Where?

posted by downtown on Nov 30, 2012 at 03:12:59 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/10/06/Council-to-be-asked-to-approve-refinancing-on-Macy-s-Apartments-loan.html

Since the start of certain properties.

And if you count newer buildings in "uptown" such as New Cheney Flats @ Adams & 17th, Arts Center Apts @ Adams & 14th, Hillcrest, you'll see plenty of section 8 type, low income residents throughout the area.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 30, 2012 at 03:56:07 pm     #  

"I'm wondering what the picture looks like downtown with property taxes in arrears."

One more reminder, Downtown Toledo Holiday Loop Art Tour - Fri, Nov 30, 2012

GuestZero, opportunities will exist this evening to ask people yourself about downtown whatever stuff. Do some investigative work and report back.

Based upon the meteorological calendar, today is the last day of fall. December 1 begins winter. This evening's activities seem like a good way to ring in the new season.

The weather is nice. Dry with little wind. Comfortable enough temps. It should be a decent turnout for this evening's art loop. And it's fun.

The new MySpace won't miss you, so get out and enjoy life a bit. Engage with other humans directly. Those wacky Toledo artists are pretty cool. And several small businesses will be open too. Four hours, however, will not be enough time to take it all in.

I understand the complaints and the data, but sometimes you have to say, "To hell with it, I'm going to selfishly enjoy a good time in T-town." (Yeah, I know that's a split infinitive.)

There's a time to care, and a time to cut-loose and have fun. Life ends soon enough, so I don't see the point of droning on every minute of every day about the same problems. Otherwise the tombstone could read: "Here lies Mr. X but not by choice, so now he has one more thing to complain about."

posted by jr on Nov 30, 2012 at 04:13:29 pm     #   3 people liked this

Wait... there's a 95 percent occupancy rate and GZ says there isn't a demand?

Um. ok...

posted by toledolen_ on Nov 30, 2012 at 04:15:31 pm     #  

Something that needs to be included with the ESC property being purchased, is the 75k price tag is 85% less than the previous purchase of 500k less than ten years ago.

The 85% price collapse while a bloodbath for one, is great value for another. The asset, the building still exists, all the rest is merely poker chips leaving one player's and moving into another player's hands.

In my opinion, the recent 75k price would have provided value even if only for the handful of upstairs apartments. They don't seem to be involved with any tax credits and hopefully the city doesn't offer any. If they must have tax credits, then the building should remain empty.

Agreeing with GZ, what DT Toledo needs more than anything is private sector JOBS! Preferably jobs derived from wealth producing industries. Toledo's unions and political machine have chased away many employers with "living wage" rubbish.

All the efforts and tax credits to add more residents, bars, restaurants, shops, without large employers in the area really is as foolish as buying a plate without any money to buy food.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 30, 2012 at 04:31:16 pm     #  

GZ, I hear what you're saying. There are problems all over the city. While the economy as a whole is not doing great, and there are of course problems with the housing market all around toledo, downtown IS attracting residents. And I'm not talking section 8, which exists all over the city.

I stand behind the register of one of the busiest restaurants in downtown toledo, and speak with two to four hundred people a day, even if ever so briefly.

6th_Floor is right, we need jobs more than anything else. And what I'm seeing is, DT seems to be attracting a lot of young professionals that work downtown. We're also seeing people new to toledo, that want to be closer to their employers and they are finding DT attractive for a variety of reasons. I'm also seeing a lot of college kids (usually UT) finding downtown living more appealing than living closer to campus. Obviously college kids won't stick around, but they bring some life.

With the Old West End lacking enough available units, uptown beginning to really thrive (relatively speaking) and DT near capacity for residential... 5 extra units is a positive addition to the neighborhood.

I lived across the street from the easy street building for 6 years, and am happy to see it developed into something. It's a great building and it would have been a shame for it to sit abandoned.

As for the xerox building... who knows? It's huge and will probably sit empty for a long while. But just down the block is the berdan building which is actively being looked at by an out of town developer for even more residential. Positive changes are happening downtown, even as other problems continue and exist. Things won't happen over night. Change in toledo happens very slowly.

I don't see the problem of embracing the positive as long as you acknowledge the negatives.

posted by upso on Nov 30, 2012 at 06:29:59 pm     #   4 people liked this

I've had dinner at the Bulldog Diner about 5 times in the last month (client out that way). A couple of things stood out.

The food is homestyle and very, very good. Also a good value.

The establishment is just about the cleanest I've ever encountered.

His weekday dinner business was solid on the nights I was there.

He did have one couple who told the waitress loud enough for me to hear that they were on their way to the casino. They said they ate there on every occaision they went to the casino. They were also in their late seventies or so. The gentleman was using a walker. So, elderly, probably frugal (except for casino trips) judging by their modest but well groomed appearance, and most likely lived within a reasonable driving distance because they undoubtedly went home at night.

Not your average highrollers!

Rossford is definitely NOT benefitting a great deal commercially from the casino. There is no incentive for the average casino visitor to venture outside the casino and into Rossford. Where would they go and what would they do?

Maybe, as casino employees get comfortable with their work schedules and learn the local environment, they MIGHT venture into downtown Rossford.

However, from what I've seen, Rossford has done nothing to encourage that. There is no business marquee or any other signage that directs visitors to restaurants or retail shops. Rossford has to get serious about letting casino visitors and casino employees know what Rossford has to offer, besides the Double Down Consignment and Pawn Shop.

posted by holland on Nov 30, 2012 at 10:15:12 pm     #  

Ok so as usual something positive happens and all half the people can do is whine an hope they fail because it doesn't fit their idea of what they think is best.

I've lived in the warehouse district for over 7 years and seen a lot of good things happening. But one thing for certain it is not being done by those people who always see the negative side. I've also come to realize that most of the residents in the WHD are not originally from Toledo perhaps this is why they have a little more optimistic outlook on life.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Dec 01, 2012 at 02:04:14 pm     #   4 people liked this

Hollywood casino is a joke. You can't do nothing there but gamble. I went to MGM today. My girlfriend went shopping in the clothing boutique. We went to one bar and had drinks in a great atmosphere. Then went to another bar for great dessert. We walked around and it was nice. So many people there I feel like they do more business on one Friday then they do in one month at Hollywood. Final cut is nothing special then the average steakhouse in any city. The casino could have been a hit with a different developer but the way penn national constructed the casino they give no one a reason to drive there. They give no respect. All the Pitt bosses from A to Z are rude. Go on there Facebook comments and look at MGMs in Detroit and you will notice a huge difference in customer service. I hope penn fails miserably and sells to someone who re innovates. Btw had a young employee of mine who's worked for me for 5 years get banned for life for being next to a fight and not telling the casino what he seen. He didn't seem to care about going back but talked to some people I knew from the casino and they said the night head security guard by the name of John will ban anyone for life for the dumbest reasons.

posted by mk123 on Dec 02, 2012 at 01:12:39 am     #  

I just want to say that we are excited to start the "Easy Street Cafe" project. We have a lot of great ideas and believe they are going to turn out beautful and fit in perfectly with the Warehouse Districts over all vision.I'd also like to state we are not asking for any assistance finacially from the City/County/State or Federal gov't. The risk will be our own to bear and not the taxpayers. My office and loft are both in the Warehouse District and I happen to love our little section of Downtown Toledo and all the people who are working hard to make a difference here. We have a long way to go, but we have come a long way already compared to recent decades.

posted by JustinLorenzen on Dec 03, 2012 at 04:35:37 pm     #  

Good Luck, JustinLorenzen!

posted by Molsonator on Dec 03, 2012 at 04:40:15 pm     #  

Welcome to TT Justin and thanks for the update regarding funding. Also, congratulations with being able to purchase the ESC property at a great discount.

Another update for downtown PoleKats opened last week in the space that used to be Marilyns Adult Entertainment.

posted by 6th_Floor on Dec 03, 2012 at 05:02:26 pm     #  

6th, when will your review be coming?

posted by Johio83 on Dec 03, 2012 at 06:00:01 pm     #   4 people liked this

I haven't seen it with my own eyes, but today I heard that Azul Tequila @ 1800 Miami Street, at the Days Inn, across the street from the casino, has closed.

419-666-3000 has a recorded message that the number has been disconnected.

I guess the casino isn't having the trickle down benefits that Mike Bell and Co. had wished to happen.

Regarding bar & restaurant closings, 2013 & 2014 are going to make 2008 & 2009 look light in comparison.

posted by 6th_Floor on Dec 26, 2012 at 05:30:55 pm     #  

Yes. Azul Tequila is closed. Happened a couple of weeks ago. I think management was a little confused as to the benefits (or lack there of) of the casino.

posted by Molsonator on Dec 26, 2012 at 05:55:54 pm     #  

geez...they didn't speak English & the food sucked, can't imagine why that didn't work out for 'em.

posted by justareviewer on Dec 26, 2012 at 06:10:44 pm     #  

Closed down due to partner disputes and money problems. Plus I'm sure the Days Inn name scares away most people even if they had great food.

posted by mk123 on Dec 26, 2012 at 06:12:20 pm     #   1 person liked this

I kept seeing a Latino night club ad on Facebook for them. If your going to party - why not the casino? Security is a lot better. More to do.

posted by Molsonator on Dec 26, 2012 at 06:28:09 pm     #  

"I think management was a little confused as to the benefits (or lack there of) of the casino."

Maybe it was not confusion but being too optimistic and ignoring the realities of a casino.

In the past, I've excerpted from this 2009 Toledo Free Press story about the Lawrenceburg, Indiana Hollywood Casino:

The bar’s owner, Bill Wagner, is a native of the area and has owned the bar for two years. He does not frequent the casino. "It takes your money," he said. Casino tourists do not make many visits downtown, he said. “People go to that boat, gamble and go home,” he said.

Earlier this thread, a couple links were posted to stories about Toledo's casino that mentioned the owner of the Bulldog Diner, located in downtown Rossford.

“I have to admit, I’m a little bit disappointed in the amount of patrons we’re getting that are coming here to eat. But we’re getting them, and we’re getting them almost daily,” he said.

... he hasn’t seen a huge influx of casino workers coming-in to eat.

“That has been disappointing, for that many employees, we thought we'd be getting more employees. I guess they have a big cafeteria down there and they give their employees food discounts, so there's not a whole lot of reason for them to come off-site,” Socie said.

Downtown Rossford businesses say they are not seeing a large bump from casino patrons.

I think it's misguided to ever expect to see a large bump in business from casino patrons, especially if the business is a restaurant or a bar.

posted by jr on Dec 26, 2012 at 06:29:20 pm     #  

As I posted earlier, there is no real incentive for casino patrons to leave the casino. If Rossford would create a better avenue appearance between the casino and downtown, with a business marquee, casino employees might venture through and perhaps stop.

Otherwise, its just a big, yellow, elephant of a building on the outskirts with no real local interaction. I don't think its even architecturally enticing to go there. I've been by it many, many times lately and I'm struck by the downright ugly facade. Yuk.

posted by holland on Dec 26, 2012 at 06:50:47 pm     #  

"If Rossford would create a better avenue appearance between the casino and downtown, with a business marquee, casino employees might venture through and perhaps stop."

I don't know about that. A downtown Rossford improvement may not attract more casino patrons nor employees.

I think the Lawrenceburg, Indiana casino opened in 1997. Penn National Gaming took it over in 2004. I visited downtown Lawrenceburg in the fall of 2009, during a trip to a nearby oxbow lake. Lawrenceburg is a nice downtown. Pretty vacant, but it's nice.

My comment about visiting Lawrenceburg in October 2009:

I noticed the new buildings and new facades in downtown Lawrenceburg that were built from casino money. But I also noticed how vacant its downtown was. The local person told me that visitors go to the casino, and then they head for home. He told me that the expected spillover of casino patrons into downtown Lawrenceburg has not happened.

posted by jr on Dec 26, 2012 at 07:18:35 pm     #  

I still say should have been built opposite the restaurants I think there is a sort of hillside sorta there would look nice or where the sports arena used to be. No inside restaurants would pump up all those at the docks.

posted by Linecrosser on Dec 26, 2012 at 07:50:24 pm     #  

Update: After months of no evident progress, a roll-off dumpster has appeared in the back lot of the Easy Street Cafe building. Maybe all those renovation dreams are becoming a reality.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 21, 2013 at 03:53:06 pm     #  

GZ, it's only been a month and a half since they acquired the building. Considering the planning that goes into it, like floor plans, securing contractors/tradesmen, getting quotes, working out details with banks, and not to mention the fact that the permit process takes a while before the city gives the OK for each and every feasible task, I'd say we have quite a while before we can have any legitimate concern that things aren't moving along as planned.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 21, 2013 at 04:35:25 pm     #  

Johio, I was under the impression that you didn't need a permit to start a tear down.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 21, 2013 at 05:20:20 pm     #  

That's obviously not what's happening with this building, but you actually do need a permit for demolition.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 21, 2013 at 05:26:50 pm     #   2 people liked this

Swank Gifts @ 48 St. Clair Street appears it's ready to add to the bites the dust list.

I think they threw in the towel before Thanksgiving, because I haven't actually seen it open since them, but now the shelves appear empty.

Although smack-dab in the belly of the beast (WHD), it couldn't survive. It doesn't appear they are going to further attempt to masquerade it's economic losses via reducing operating hours.

I wonder when the people who foolishly believe owning shopping themed businesses downtown will finally wake up to the reality of continued Toledo economic contraction?

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 21, 2013 at 06:27:29 pm     #  

yeah, they have gone out of business. they actually had a thriving internet sales / biz but you're right. the foot traffic isn't / wasn't there for retail

posted by upso on Jan 21, 2013 at 07:35:24 pm     #  

It really is a shame to see the determined efforts of people like Kathy Steingraber heading down the drain. A lot of effort has been put forth upgrading the buildings on that block. The hours were pinched a while ago, but it was evident the area didn't have enough shoppers and the business dissolved.

Unfortunately, most of them paid far too much, and are trying to earn profits in the midst of "The Great Depression Part Deux." As ridiculous as I think it is to try to open any new business in that area right now, shopping/retail is almost a guaranteed path to quick, and heavy lo$$e$.

Swank Gifts won't be the last business to close on that block during 2013 & 2014.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 21, 2013 at 08:25:58 pm     #  

A few problems I see for the WHD/downtown ever sustaining economic viability.

1. Toledo has very limited numbers of folks with the bankroll of a one-percenter.

2. Among that limited crowd, only a select few care much about downtown/WHD. Therefore, they aren't willing to piss into the wind endless thousands of dollars to operate hobby businesses or sustain perpetual monetary losses.

3. Despite efforts to delay and masquerade the ongoing economic contraction, Toledo's economy isn't going to recover soon and in fact the ongoing decline needs to contract deeper to more equally reflect the average household income of it's residents.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 21, 2013 at 08:42:54 pm     #   1 person liked this

UPSO said: [Swank Gifts] actually had a thriving internet sales / biz

Well, can't they just continue doing that part? You can run that sort of thing out of your garage.

Hmm, still seems to be open:

http://www.swankmartini.com/

posted by GuestZero on Jan 21, 2013 at 10:57:05 pm     #  

I'll have to counter you there, 6F. Toledo's economy will never recover. This is a long-term contraction leading to permanent despondency. Combined with government interference with the process of clearing bad debt, what should have taken about 5-8 years to clear up (at maximum pain for all the rich a$$holes that created it) will now go on for about 30 years. So that means Toledo's contraction will continue until the late 2030s... and by then, worldwide petroleum depletion will reach critical levels, killing off a lot of the industry that Toledo depended on. This depression will never end for Toledo. Nor will it ever end for any of our regional rusty cities... Toledo, Cleveland, Detroit.

Toledo has some assets going for it. Lots of fresh water and arable land, mainly. But these assets cannot possibly be leveraged to produce prosperity for a people who are loaded up with impossible modern expenses, like student loans, mortgages, health insurance, utility connections, etc. These things would have broken the backs of any Medieval villein (peasant). And peasantry is the only future when all you really have is well watered, arable land. Heck, not even that, since it's arguable that much of that land will fall into the hands of modern oligarchs, who won't accept that land reform is necessary. The neo-oligarchs will merely continue the muttering that our current oligarchs do, complaining that we workers should just "find jobs" that they themselves had totally obliterated or undermined in the first place through the system of globalist labor arbitrage.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 21, 2013 at 11:21:11 pm     #  

Is there any evidence Swank Gifts and Martini are owned by the same person(s)? Probably as much as exists that the world will have "just about ran dry" of petroleum before 203ish.

Most Americans are going to be reduced to peasantry because of excessive debt and reduced world wage levels.

Businesses such as Swank Gifts are rapidly becoming less necessary (especially in Toledo) during the economic collapse.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 22, 2013 at 01:26:57 am     #  

GZ, sometimes I'm not sure if you're trolling, or you really are just a little bit nuts. You're the Bill Spencer of economic future forecasting. I mean yeah, Toledo definitely has a difficult road ahead of it, but you could write fan fiction for the SyFy channel with the pictures of doom and gloom you paint.

To that end, and getting a little bit off topic (but who really cares, we're 362 posts into this thread and have covered a LOT of bases so far), what would your suggested plan of action be? What would the city have to do by the 2030s to, at the very least, maintain its status as a "mid major" city?

posted by Johio83 on Jan 22, 2013 at 10:05:55 am     #   2 people liked this

"1. Toledo has very limited numbers of folks with the bankroll of a one-percenter.

2. Among that limited crowd, only a select few care much about downtown/WHD"

6th, I don't think that implication is correct. I would argue that the vast majority of residents in the WHD are anything BUT 1%ers. I'd say the vast majority are young adults just starting their careers, and they like the urban lifestyle better than the 'burbs. And in turn, the businesses in the WHD are trying to cater to them. Sure, not every business works out, and sometimes the timing isn't right, but that doesn't mean we're talking about some retired CEO of a fortune 500 that decides he wants to waste away his fortunes on some dream of running a small business. And really, a good amount of the businesses in St Clair Village were started by 20 somethings who put up everything they had to get off the ground.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 22, 2013 at 10:21:20 am     #  

"... what would your suggested plan of action be? What would the city have to do by the 2030s to, at the very least, maintain its status as a "mid major" city?"

Here's some banter from a few old posts at Toledo Talk that discuss the area and not just Toledo:

posted by jr on Jan 22, 2013 at 11:03:25 am     #  

lol..Guest Zero...that was a gloomy post. I have a mental picture of you. You look like Charlton Heston...I am convinced of it! I am sure after you made your "Toledo in 2030" prediction you shuffled off muttering about the price of Soylent Green and worst of all, those damn dirty apes! "It's a madhouse...a madhouse!' lol

posted by Dappling2 on Jan 22, 2013 at 11:27:42 am     #  

No, Dappling. Heston was far too handsome and craggy faced. I look almost exactly like Wil Wheaton does now. Other TTers who've seen me will verify that.

Look, there's no point in insisting people become educated, if you don't accept the outcome of education. I've been formally educated in math, physics, chemistry, engineering and electronics, and I've pursued philosophy, economics and sociology on my own. Physics and geology themselves were enough to conclude that we're in trouble as a civilization. We are 99.9999% dependent on fossil fuels. By definition, those are running out. No other source of fuel delivers the overall punch of fossil fuels, particularly petroleum. It's math and physics, guy. You're can't economically run our civilization on nuclear energy. It may have extraordinary energy density, but you can't deliver it cheaply enough and you most certainly can't deliver it practically enough. Oil (through its distillates: gasoline, diesel and kerosene (jet fuel)) was like magic for Humanity. That's why it came to power almost everything that moves in the world. And it's therefore how our civilization will strangle itself, with billions unable to eat, since they relied on an energy-intensive, highly mechanized agriculture system.

In the end, you don't need Soylent Green when the far easier avenue is to just let people starve to death, while you barricade your gates during the overall gigadeath event. Naturally, this means wars, and those will start to dominate the latter 21st Century (the period I call "petroleum starvation" for more reason than one). In effect, World War III has already started, with the permanent occupation of the Middle East's oil fields and pipeline runs (i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan, soon to be joined by the occupation of the SW quarter of Iran).

Like I said before, if you find the outcome of education so unacceptable, then stop pushing education.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 22, 2013 at 12:19:16 pm     #  

I am going to play along for ten minutes...GZ When will we run out of oil? Ballpark figure.

posted by Molsonator on Jan 22, 2013 at 12:29:52 pm     #  

GZ, you're acting like people are oblivious to the fact that oil will eventually run out. We all know it's going to happen. Most people are just too reluctant (re: selfish) to change their habits unless their hand is forced, which is why a little part of me has a shit eating grin every time gas prices skyrocket. The sooner we put a REAL effort into finding a solution, the better off we'll be. And maybe Toledo will get lucky and be the home of a major advancement in the solar industry, and that can be the next chapter in our economic history.

And to tie this into the original conversation in this thread, that's why downtowns are important. Walkable urban environments that put a huge damper on the stranglehold of gas prices. Downtown Toledo is leaps and bounds behind most other developed urban areas, but we're still moving along at a promising pace. I live downtown because I love the urban lifestyle it affords me. The fiancée and I go out to eat or out for drinks a couple times a week in downtown, and it requires no gasoline for us to get there. I love that.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 22, 2013 at 12:45:57 pm     #   1 person liked this

Johio said: what would your suggested plan of action be? What would the city have to do by the 2030s to, at the very least, maintain its status as a "mid major" city?

Oh, I'm glad you asked, just as long as you realize that as my analysis is socially unacceptable, my plans are equally so.

The plan is already being worked. Roughly: Leave or downsize. Lots of people know they can't survive here, so they've left. That only works for so long. I've considered that option myself, but I'd be just another desperate yahoo seeking work in zones where jobs exist. I'd be a renter then until I died; I may as well just throw open my doors now and hand everything away. As a side note, I'm a materialist, I have lots of tools and equipment. So I'm not going to be doing something like that. I've said before that other people need to leave, than me. I want 50K people to leave Toledo ASAP. All you people with degrees and families, please just pull up stakes and get your asses out of my sight. You're only here taking up jobs that people like me need to survive.

But leaving only works so far, especially considering that most people "leave" merely by White Flight; they go into the suburbs and exoburbs, and hold onto their swanky city jobs while doing so. That creates a new class of house-indebted and energy-gulping citizenry who will crash and burn soon enough. If there's one thing that will keep increasing in price combined with running into serious shortages, it's that wacky gasoline. Eventually commuters will be as rare as piano players. In the 1800s, you didn't have commuters, and that's where we're going to end up. After all, it's physics. We just won't have affordable energy sources to support millions of people who blow through far too many joules of energy in transporting themselves 35 miles each day plus their avg wt 4000lb vehicle.

So much for "leaving". What remains is downsizing. For all those middle class who were parodied in the 1990s for not understanding what "buy less stuff" meant, that means LESS. Less spending. Less consuming. Less commuting. Less entertainment. Less health insurance. Less beer. Less. Less. Less. I have to keep repeating that since it really can't get through the thick skulls (bone all the way through) of the middle class who were indulged like silly little girls during the Boomer Era with lifetime employment and then endless credit lines.

Well, all that stupidity is over now. Careers are pretty much over except for the Golden Class (the top 10%) and of course The One Percent. That leaves 90% to eventually hang from the gibbet, from a rope woven from bills and taxes. Eventually people who even try to downsize, will keep getting slammed with bills and taxes, and then will revolt. That's a long time into the future, however; people, particularly Americans, and specifically middle-class Midwesterners are abysmally stupid. They'll keep holding on, spending where they can, borrowing where they can, until more and more catastrophes pretty much devastate their class. Foreclosures, bankruptcies, divorces, unemployment, and stress-related illnesses are just the beginning.

For those still reading, you probably know what to do. Instead of renting a movie, how about taking it out of the library? Read a book. Don't go out; that costs gasoline and wear on the car. Stay in with family, whom you're supposed to be loving and supporting anyway. Learn to garden. Build a root cellar. Build downspout cisterns. Add more insulation to your wooden box of a home (which was the most insane architecture, ever, for this climate). Get back to family and earth, since in the ongoing socio-economic collapse, that's all you'll have anyway. The goal is to not need a job.

Of course, to truly not need a job, you have to be apart from the cash economy, which is how you're enslaved today. That means a tax revolt must come, sometime down the line. But it's like directing a war through blogging and decades of time; it's not even worth discussing until it gets here.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 22, 2013 at 12:52:58 pm     #   1 person liked this

WOW - I will wait for the cliff notes...

posted by Molsonator on Jan 22, 2013 at 12:56:01 pm     #   1 person liked this

Johio said: GZ, you're acting like people are oblivious to the fact that oil will eventually run out.

Yes, because they are oblivious.

Johio said: The sooner we put a REAL effort into finding a solution, the better off we'll be.

There is no solution. It's physics and geology and economics. Nothing replaces petroleum. All other options are either too expensive, too impractical, or both. The solution is to have less, and worldwide, that means billions fewer people. People eat, and today they are effectively eating petroleum, via our energy-intensive, highly mechanized system of agriculture, including distribution and retailing.

The problem, really, with my generation is that people have watched too much scifi or something, and they believe that technology creates energy. Tech only exploits energy sources. And when it comes to powering our civilization at our economic level, there's nothing else but petroleum, then natural gas and coal. Even converting stuff over to use natural gas won't work, since we can't afford the sheer expense of doing so. We're stuck. Oil was just too good a source of energy: Dirt cheap, energy dense, and very practical. Petroleum ruined us... because like any stupid bacteria, we proliferated without any concern whatsoever that the petri dish was only so large.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 22, 2013 at 01:00:51 pm     #   1 person liked this

GZ, I think it's weird that you aren't more pro-downtown, considering the views you've just expressed. Not spreading ourselves out so much, consolidating to a smaller geographical area that would boost densities, leading a lifestyle that requires as little gasoline and car dependency as possible... these are the philosophies of pro-downtowners.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 22, 2013 at 01:02:20 pm     #  

"There is no solution. It's physics and geology and economics. Nothing replaces petroleum. All other options are either too expensive, too impractical, or both."

This kind of ignores the past 100 years of technological innovations. A battery that produces enough energy to run my laptop for a few hours would have been the size of a car a few decades ago. In that same regard, look how far solar tech has come in the few decades it has been an actual industry. The cost per watt is literally half of what it was only 5 years ago. It was $1.23 in 2007, and is $0.67 today. Noting this progress, you don't think there's the slightest possibility that it could be a viable energy source by the 2030's?

posted by Johio83 on Jan 22, 2013 at 01:10:06 pm     #  

Molsonator asked: When will we run out of oil? Ballpark figure.

You have to watch your terminology. We'll never actually "run out". It will merely become so expensive or bothersome or both, to exploit further, that mankind will eventually stop drilling for it.

People have trouble with the "running out" concept, so I've had to come up with terminology to describe it. Many have come before me, like Hubbert. He coined the term "peak oil". He was trying to get people to slowly understand, since most people are pretty much dumb as posts.

We reached peak oil worldwide in 2005. That's the world production peak. Except for a single month's bump in 2008, petroleum production in the world will never again exceed that amount, about 90 million barrels a day. The production peaks for the USA and other major producers were reached in the 1970s. World oil discoveries peaked in the 1960s. The major producers are now at half their peaks, and discoveries are also at half, and those discoveries are falling consistently.

This really should be obvious, considering oil isn't infinite, as the Earth isn't infinite. And all petroleum geology specifically notes that oil is a fossil fuel. It only renews over scales of millions of years, which is about a million times slower than we use oil. And oil was never in great supply anyway. We've blown through a trillion barrels so far, and the next trillion will assuredly come at much greater cost, including war.

Moving on, past peak oil, we really ended the Cheap Oil phase. Petroleum will never be that cheap again. Ever. So we're now in the Moderate Oil phase. That must be followed by the Expensive Oil phase. (I use these terms from the perspective of some dumbassed middle class Midwesterner, who consumes energy hugely and without care.) The Moderate Oil phase will take about 15 years, to 2020 or so. Then the Expensive Oil phase will begin, and so the 2020s in the USA will be a deeper depression than we have today. After all, oil runs everything that moves, and that's how commerce happens.

The EO phase will slide into the late 2030s, when petroleum depletion will become critical, hence Petroleum Starvation will begin. A condition of permanent world war will exist, but that's easy to predict, since that's really what we have now, with the permanent occupation of the Middle East's oil fields and terminals. WWIII already started in Oct 2001.

By the 2050s, oil will have so seriously depleted that there will be 50% unemployment in the USA, much like any Third World nation. Nothing replaces oil. Nothing can match its combined cheapness, energy density and practicality of exploitation and use. When it drains from our society like a falling tide, never to return, our economy will follow.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 22, 2013 at 01:18:15 pm     #   1 person liked this

Johio said: This kind of ignores the past 100 years of technological innovations.

No, you're just not listening. I already said that technology doesn't create energy. It merely exploits those that exist. We reach exploitation efficiencies fairly quickly. And you're ignoring that we've had electric cars for a century now. Notice that really nobody uses them.

Johio, you've been bit by the tech bug bad. Seek inoculation or something. Education is supposed to inoculate you against mythology.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 22, 2013 at 01:21:47 pm     #  

Right. The sun creates the energy, and the solar cells exploit it. For all intents and purposes, the sun will never stop the endless stream of energy we've had for all time. (Obviously it'll end at some point, but when that happens, it kinda renders this conversation useless)

Secondly, that's my point. Technology advances to the point where things DO become practical. Computers have been around since my grandpa was my age. But they were massive, slow, and pretty useless from a personal use standpoint. Then technology advanced to the point that I can now have a device in my pocket that is more powerful than all of the world's computing power combined back then. Electric cars haven't made much sense in the past, and still aren't totally logical. But that has no bearing on how useful they could be in the future. What happens if we get solar production efficient enough that you could have a 6" × 6" panel on the top of your car that converts enough energy to power the car? Would that not replace oil's usefulness?

posted by Johio83 on Jan 22, 2013 at 01:34:33 pm     #  

"... which is why a little part of me has a shit eating grin every time gas prices skyrocket."

Nice. Combine that with our increasing local taxes, fees, and assessments, and that means less money to spend downtown or on local businesses, especially for non-essential items.

I guess it's a good thing that we have Internet shopping and a plethora of chain stores that offer discounted goods.

"Walkable urban environments that put a huge damper on the stranglehold of gas prices."

And right now, the local leader for a "walkable" urban environment might be the chain store-dominated Westfield Mall, which is closer than downtown Toledo for people living in West Toledo, Sylvania, and Ottawa Hills, so the mall is saving gas and money for consumers. People may not walk to the mall, but people can walk inside the mall. And because of the mall's density, people can visit a lot of businesses for shopping, food, and entertainment, which is probably appealing to many people in this kind of weather with single-digit temps.

A soybean field walkable area exists at Levis Commons. Shopping, food, entertainment, businesses, and residential dwellings exist out there, allowing for the possibility to walk everywhere.

Old post from 2007 mentioned before: Maybe the best location in Toledo for a walkable area

posted by jr on Jan 22, 2013 at 01:52:22 pm     #  

"Nice. Combine that with our increasing local taxes, fees, and assessments, and that means less money to spend downtown or on local businesses, especially for non-essential items."

Again, the point being that people won't look for a new solution until a) the current one runs out, or b) the price gets out of control. Everyone knows oil will eventually run out, but nobody is willing to cut back on usage so long as it's cheap. Seriously, everyone just consider how you use your car. How often do you drive to a store to grab a $3 item, as opposed to waiting until the next time you have a full list of groceries you need and get it then. How often do you drive to meet 5 other friends, all of you driving separately, as opposed to doing any car pooling. We waste so much gas, because it's (even at these prices) still easy to fit into our budget in excess. Conservation of fuel is nonexistent.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 22, 2013 at 02:01:13 pm     #  

"And right now, the local leader for a "walkable" urban environment might be the chain store-dominated Westfield Mall" "A soybean field walkable area exists at Levis Commons. Shopping, food, entertainment, businesses, and residential dwellings exist out there, allowing for the possibility to walk everywhere."

I agree entirely with both of those. When I'm talking about being spread out, I'm referring to things like strip malls. Compare the two:
Westfield: You drive there, get out of your car, and walk in. You go store to store until all of your shopping is done, and then you get back in your car and go home. Once there, you were able to walk everywhere.
Spring Meadows: You drive there, get out of your car, and walk into Guitar Center. Then you get back in your car and drive to Kroger, and walk in. Then you get back in your car and drive to Target, and walk in. Then you get back in your car and drive to Office Depot, and walk in. There's no walkability. It's entirely based around you driving to every location.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 22, 2013 at 02:13:20 pm     #  

GZ makes several points that are spot on. Solar power remains a non-practical application with each unit having a payback that exceeds it's functional lifespan. Only wind and ocean tides can produce power that exceeds the cost of system design.

With regard to unemployment, I think he sums it up nicely. The long-term result of the 200ish year old industrial revolution is unemployment. The more reliable machines get, the less people are required to operate them.

posted by jimavolt on Jan 22, 2013 at 04:20:28 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 07:42:54 PM on Jan 21, 2013:

A few problems I see for the WHD/downtown ever sustaining economic viability.

1. Toledo has very limited numbers of folks with the bankroll of a one-percenter.

2. Among that limited crowd, only a select few care much about downtown/WHD. Therefore, they aren't willing to piss into the wind endless thousands of dollars to operate hobby businesses or sustain perpetual monetary losses.

3. Despite efforts to delay and masquerade the ongoing economic contraction, Toledo's economy isn't going to recover soon and in fact the ongoing decline needs to contract deeper to more equally reflect the average household income of it's residents.

1) Quite irrelevant. Plus I think you're wrong, there's more money in Lucas County than you might think. It lives outside Toledo though. That's precisely why the WHD's advantage as the only urban neighborhood is so special.

2) A bad way to look at it.

3) Contraction in the region != contraction in the WHD. You wouldn't look at a failing neighborhood in North Toledo and say "welp, there goes Perrysburg..."

The only problem with "sustaining economic viability" is that we need to get more people to live downtown. Relying on foot traffic from VISITORS is always an at-risk business model. You need to be a destination/"anchor" for real safety in that regard; apparently Swank Gifts or whatever isn't one of those.

I don't think anyone is saying that the WHD is a homerun, or even a done deal. But Lucas County made the right move of putting the ballpark downtown and NATIONAL TRENDS (not pipedreams) of people desiring urban living have brought the WHD a long way from 1990.

Of course, the neighborhood cannot take the next step until Berdan is renovated.

posted by BusterBluth on Jan 22, 2013 at 04:21:42 pm     #  

Deferring to JR's rule about going off topic too much, I'll finish my energy commentary with one more response.

What happens if we get solar production efficient enough that you could have a 6"×6" panel on the top of your car that converts enough energy to power the car?

You can't. There's only so much energy in insolation (in-SOL-ation, look it up) in Toledo OH at the ground level, very similar to how there's only so much energy to be taken from a wind turbine when it's low to the ground. For solar, the attenuation is particularly severe. I don't have to push the numbers here; they're easily googled. The point is that when people are pumping about 10.5KWh into their ludicrous GM Volt cars, solar cells of even 100% efficiency on the car itself can't possibly recharge that. The problem remains the same: We're a civilization whose every move consumes a huge amount of energy. Solar can't cover it, even assuming we can afford to deploy such installed plant at today's prices, which we can't.

Anyway, the point is that there's a massive energy crisis facing Toledoans into the future, and it's arguably already here. That will totally undermine whatever recovery that anyone has planned. One type of economic lethargy will merely transform itself into another type.

Detroit is really Toledo's future model. We learned nothing about Detroit, so we're doomed to merely repeat it.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 23, 2013 at 11:44:45 am     #  

On the other hand, rising ocean levels, super coastal storms and desertification looking like a real possibility for the Southwest, Great Lake cites might find themselves sitting pretty.

posted by SensorG on Jan 23, 2013 at 12:18:03 pm     #   4 people liked this

OK, sure. Ocean levels are rising; that data is indisputable. Ultimately if "global warming" is the true meteorological trend, then the majority of Humanity that lives on the ocean coasts will simply have to evacuate. We got a tiny taste of that with NOLA/Katrina. Displaced, there must be some % of Americans that will head for a place with arable land and water. That's us.

The SW of the USA becomes ever hungrier for water, and they know they can't get it from the Great Lakes region. Will they then just come here to compensate? They could be doing that now, right?

Ever cheaper home prices are important draws, at least eventually. Today, even with all that's happened, cheapening home prices REPEL Americans on average. That's because we're still stuck on the idea that your personal residence is an "investment" (which it isn't). Investments are supposed to ROI greater than inflation, or produce an income while the asset price holds firm. Your personal housing does neither. But just try to tell a Toledoan that, or even your general American. We've a long way to go before Americans start behaving that money is wealth again, and that debt is not.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 23, 2013 at 06:57:19 pm     #  

Johio said: GZ, I think it's weird that you aren't more pro-downtown, considering the views you've just expressed. Not spreading ourselves out so much, consolidating to a smaller geographical area that would boost densities, leading a lifestyle that requires as little gasoline and car dependency as possible... these are the philosophies of pro-downtowners.

Except that we can't feed people who just collect downtown. Tear up all those parking lots and make community gardens and private gardens of truly huge size. Then, I'll agree with you. Fat chance of that happening inside of 30 years.

Currently, there's nothing in the overall development plan that creates the "walking downtown", even for the very rich. There's no grocery store or department store in walking distance. The yuppie-ish people who live downtown are car people. They must leave DT regularly to continue living their usual lifestyle.

And really, the reality today is as it ever was: Whites only move back downtown as long as they can live up, off the street, away from where nutty Black people wander day and night. We keep avoiding the hard black nut inside of each conversational fruit, but any serious bite encounters it. So, other than developing downtown buildings, what's your plan for getting rid of those people? You're stuck with the Standart model otherwise, and that's hardly a "walking downtown".

posted by GuestZero on Jan 23, 2013 at 07:09:01 pm     #   1 person liked this

o_0

posted by upso on Jan 23, 2013 at 09:31:40 pm     #   1 person liked this

"And really, the reality today is as it ever was: Whites only move back downtown as long as they can live up, off the street, away from where nutty Black people wander day and night. We keep avoiding the hard black nut inside of each conversational fruit, but any serious bite encounters it. So, other than developing downtown buildings, what's your plan for getting rid of those people?"

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 23, 2013 at 09:58:55 pm     #   2 people liked this

Johio said: GZ, I think it's weird that you aren't more pro-downtown, considering the views you've just expressed. Not spreading ourselves out so much, consolidating to a smaller geographical area that would boost densities, leading a lifestyle that requires as little gasoline and car dependency as possible... these are the philosophies of pro-downtowners.

Actually, GZ lives in an area that's consolidated, and unlike you downtown folks, it didn't require building a bunch of housing that was only possible via massive of misallocated gov funding.

I live in a similar neighborhood with many homes greater than 100 years old. It's also less expensive than downtown housing.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 23, 2013 at 10:26:52 pm     #  

BB: Of course, the neighborhood cannot take the next step until Berdan is renovated.

And I won't be playing in the major leagues until I can throw a 90+ mph fastball.

Thank goodness you aren't calling the WHD a homerun. It's at best a fielder's choice thus far. Especially considering the amount of money, time, and attention it has received.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 23, 2013 at 10:29:20 pm     #  

BB: _The only problem with "sustaining economic viability" is that we need to get more people to live downtown. _

You shouldn't even be mentioning economic viability and downtown. Most of what's been added there regarding what you are applauding never would have happened without funding that was taken from elsewhere. Without a great number of residents receiving gov rent subsidies, the 95% or whatever bloated occupancy rated that's quoted would be much lower, too.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 23, 2013 at 10:32:51 pm     #  

BB: _Plus I think you're wrong, there's more money in Lucas County than you might think. It lives outside Toledo though. That's precisely why the WHD's advantage as the only urban neighborhood is so special. _

And that "money" left Toledo and Lucas County for specific reasons. They aren't returning and most of them couldn't care less about Toledo and WHD.

Why would you claim WHD is the only "urban neighborhood" in Toledo? Completely false.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 23, 2013 at 10:36:08 pm     #  

"That's precisely why the WHD's advantage as the only urban neighborhood is so special."

I'm with 6th_Floor here. What qualifies the Warehouse District as the only "urban neighborhood" in Toledo? What's the definition of an urban neighborhood?

I live in West Toledo. Is that now considered rural living?

A few blocks from our home is Elmhurst Elementary, which is one of the best-performing schools in all of TPS. Kids and parents walk to and from that school.

It might be a long walk by Toledoans' standards, but I've walked to the businesses along Slvania Ave, just west of Douglas, such as Zavotski Meets & Deli, Clip-N-Dales, El Camino Real, the Goodwill, and some kind of dollar-type store.

A fitness center exists now in the Deveaux Village Shopping Center. Numerous small businesses exist along Sylvania Ave between Douglas and Secor. Multiple churches exist in the immediate area too.

I'd say there's more to a neighborhood than a minor league baseball stadium that sits empty most of the year and multiple bars that are in close proximity to each other.

I can walk to Zavotski's or stop there on my drive home and pick up food for dinner, including items from their butcher. Can you do that in the Warehouse District? The only problem with Zavotski's is that it closes at 7:00 p.m., which can happen with small, locally-owned businesses.

When our dog is ready for a grooming, I walk him to Clip-N-Dales. Do people who live in the WHD own dogs? If so, what's the closest groomer that you can walk to?

posted by jr on Jan 23, 2013 at 11:36:36 pm     #   1 person liked this

^ Yep I agree with jr. I live in a similar neighborhood (west Toledo). I was happy to discover that I could run my errands (banking, gourmet grocery, library, take-out, coffee shops) using a bicycle in good weather. That's MY fitness plan! ;-) I was even happier to discover that in snowy or icy conditions, when people might not want to drive, I can walk to all of the above and leave my car in the garage. Very handy when the power goes out, too.

posted by viola on Jan 24, 2013 at 11:12:01 am     #  

Also, Johio's comment about the walkability of the chain-store-dominated Westfield mall (sorry, I've come late to this party): I could not "go store to store until all of my shopping is done" at Westfield. I think enclosed malls were at their best when they served as holding tanks for millions of formerly idle housewives and teenagers. All of the stores are oriented towards frivolous discretionary spending. After a trip to the mall, I would still need to drive to endless strip malls to get my REAL shopping done.

posted by viola on Jan 24, 2013 at 11:22:18 am     #  

"There's no grocery store or department store in walking distance." "Do people who live in the WHD own dogs? If so, what's the closest groomer that you can walk to?"

I'm sorry, but these comments just... I don't understand the logic. I've lived my entire life up until the past year in suburbs. Know how many times I've walked to a grocery store? Never. Not once. Know how many times I'd walked to a restaurant, bar, baseball game, hockey game, or a movie? Not a single time. But I do all of those regularly now that I live downtown. And no, 6th, there was not a single cent of government money spent on my place.

I don't understand the logic of people making comments like that, and expecting that I'll be like "well gee, you're right, I can't walk my dog to the groomers, so downtown must not really be walkable."

posted by Johio83 on Jan 24, 2013 at 11:30:43 am     #   1 person liked this

"I could not "go store to store until all of my shopping is done" at Westfield."

But when you're at the mall, do you go into Williams Sonoma, shop around, then walk back out to your car and drive around to the other side so you can walk into Spencers? Or once you're in the mall, do you stay in the mall until you're done with your mall shopping?

posted by Johio83 on Jan 24, 2013 at 11:33:53 am     #   1 person liked this

(The point I'm trying to make there, Viola, is that the topic that was being discussed wasn't whether or not you can do all of the shopping you could possibly need to do at one location. It was about whether or not the format of that location is more walkable. ie, is the setup of a shopping mall more walkable than a strip mall.)

posted by Johio83 on Jan 24, 2013 at 11:37:14 am     #  

first... can we give up on this thread and start a new one that more accurately lets us know the discussion topic?!

urban node is different than urban neighborhood.

urban neighborhood is traditional commerical building such as the warehouse district, brownstones and other zero lot line on the sides and zero or nearly zero distance to the Right of Way (RoW) and is primarily pedestrian oriented. it is mixed use buildings, mixed income, and the same general configuration extends for the entire fabric of the neighborhood. when it comes to towns and cities, this is the type of development that civilization had known up until 1870s or 80s.

urban node is a section of usually one street or one intersection that posseses these traits while the remainder of the neighborhood it services is suburban neighborhood with segregated uses, wider lots (not always significantly wider), lot set-backs on all sides, and largely automobile compliant. these neighborhoods are largely a result of inter-urban trolley lines. where the trolleys ran at major intersections you had urban nodes while the new form of residential, suburban, was just growing up around them.

you CAN walk to those shops if you are close enough in the surrounding neighborhoods if you chose... but most people when they go grocery shopping do drive... they buy food when they go shopping for an entire week or two... hell, at that point go costco and shop for the month.

in a healthy urban neighborhood, you almost HAVE to walk, you want to walk, and you shop almost every day in much smaller quantities and end up eating fresher foods.

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jan 24, 2013 at 11:39:55 am     #   1 person liked this

Johio said: "Know how many times I've walked to a grocery store? Never. Not once. [...] But I do all of those regularly now that I live downtown."

Johio, tell us in rough terms how far you walk to a grocery store downtown. I mean, for all your grocery needs. Also tell us how far you walk to a department store. Again, for all your such needs.

You know what? Don't bother answering. There is no grocery store for downtown people. There's no Krogers or anything like that. And the store on Cherry is for poor people; actually, we all know damned well it's for the Blacks; you tight Whites won't shop there. I know; I've gone there enough times to see that. I stood out like a light bulb in a sea of waving cattails.

There's also no department store like K-Mart downtown. There's also no hardware store like Home Depot.

Taken together, even rich people have to get in their cars and leave downtown via 75 or 280 and drive a significant distance for the grocery, department store and hardware store.

The downtown is simply not a walking community. It's an island peppered with yuppie towers, with lots and lots of P-A-R-K-I-N-G, since it's still very much a car culture living there.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 24, 2013 at 03:10:27 pm     #  

Sorry, I should've been more clear in my comment. I meant for the "but I do all of those" part to refer to the previous sentence, no the whole paragraph. Like this:

"I've lived my entire life up until the past year in suburbs. Know how many times I've walked to a grocery store? Never. Not once.

Know how many times I'd walked to a restaurant, bar, baseball game, hockey game, or a movie when I lived in the suburbs? Not a single time. But I do all of those regularly now that I live downtown."

posted by Johio83 on Jan 24, 2013 at 03:14:41 pm     #  

And I guess my frustrations with people saying downtown isn't walkable because there's no grocery store is basically... even if there were, I wouldn't drive there. Just like Kmart, Home Depot, and everything else you just mentioned. Even if they were all right down the block, I wouldn't walk there, because I'd have to carry everything home with me. Agrocery store might be nice for the times where I'd grab one item, but the vast majority of the time, I'd still be driving to load up. So I don't really consider these to be necessities of a walkable neighborhood.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 24, 2013 at 03:18:50 pm     #   1 person liked this

Also, GZ, "you tight Whites won't shop there"

ya know, it's odd. You're telling me I won't go places downtown, because there are black people here. Yet I live here. You tell me I won't go shopping somewhere, because there might be black people here? And you call me a "tight White"? Do you know me? Do you have any idea who I am? Then don't make ridiculous statements like that.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 24, 2013 at 03:25:30 pm     #  

And the store on Cherry is for poor people; actually, we all know damned well it's for the Blacks; you tight Whites won't shop there.

I shop there alllllll the time. its not the highest quality, but it's the closest to my house in the OWE and i don't always want to drive 20 minutes to pick up eggs.

posted by upso on Jan 24, 2013 at 03:35:32 pm     #  

GZ... what's with the anger in that response?! it is evident in johio's response what he/she meant and your rant obscures the point of the discussion. yes, it would be nice if all could shop at every store without feeling out-of-place or even unsafe... it sounds self-righteous to point out you have gone there... well, i have gone there, and upso goes there and lots of other whites have as well. it is probably wise for many people not to shop there because you do have to be on guard and aware of ones surroundings.

downtown has been abused of much of its urban character... lots of classic buildings taken down, lots of surface parking lots put up, lots of speculators hording buildings, very true. but there does remain enough to understand the allure of urban living and it is a good foundation to rebuild a good dense mixed use district... not an entertainment district for suburbanites, not a parking lot for the CBD, not fenced in apartment complexes and carports suited to a highway off-ramp. but a strong self-sufficient neighborhood.

upso... have you been to the new market on bancroft near franklin? is it a true market or is it just another convenience store competing for lottery and beer sales?

posted by enjoyeverysandwich on Jan 24, 2013 at 04:50:49 pm     #  

Johio pretends that repetition will somehow make his point: But I do all of those regularly now that I live downtown.

Who cares? Most people get out of the house for shopping. That means grocery, department store, hardware store... none of which are downtown, or at least not within walkable distance.

The larger point is that to live downtown, you must still keep a car, and when you do, you tend to use it. You're not going to be using Tarta, either. I hardly need to explain why. (It rhymes with "Black people".)

Jr and others are right: West Toledo is far more walkable than this downtown/WHD crap. We know you'll never admit it, Johio. You can't admit what's against your self interest. You're one of those downtown yuppies who wants his property values to soar into the stratosphere so you'll become a housing bubble millionaire. Yeah, look around Toledo there, and the nation, and good luck with that. The housing bubble is winding down, the music fades, and there isn't a chair for you.

You gambled, Johio. And you lost. What's missing here is you being man enough to admit that.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 24, 2013 at 05:07:31 pm     #  

It's just a liquor store/convenience store at the moment! Kind of a bummer… Didn't really need another one of those in the area :-(… not that I haven't been there ;-)

posted by upso on Jan 24, 2013 at 05:08:25 pm     #  

EES said: GZ... what's with the anger in that response?!

There is none. You invented it.

EES said: it is evident in johio's response what he/she meant and your rant obscures the point of the discussion.

No, it's evident instead that Johio is pushing propaganda. Downtown Toledo is as walkable as is any stretch of Nevada desert. You have to walk too far to get what you really need for today's living standards: Grocery, department story, hardware store. And probably schools, too. Where do you send your kids to school that's within walking distance? (Ooops, my mistake. Almost nobody has their kid walk to school, anywhere. LOL!)

That's why all these yuppie towers are associated with big parking lots. And that's totally denies the claim that it's a walking downtown. And that should be totally obvious. Lack of main venues PLUS heavy automotive presence EQUALS a commuting downtown.

That night I went to Quimby's the streets were rife with drivers.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 24, 2013 at 05:16:14 pm     #  

Having a walkable area has nothing to do with there being no cars. You are the only one here who has been saying there should be no cars, along with no jobs, and everyone tilling their own land for crop, because there will be no economy in a couple decades. Nobody else is having that conversation with you.

And why do you keep throwing in comments like you actually know people here? Making assumptions about what everyone does in their spare time, their opinions of other races, and where people have made their money. Why are you trying to make any of these things part of the conversation?

posted by Johio83 on Jan 24, 2013 at 05:24:55 pm     #   2 people liked this

Johio said: So I don't really consider these to be necessities of a walkable neighborhood.

Sorry, you don't get to redefine what clearly doesn't function. The downtown is still nearly 100% dependent upon the automobile. If you're going to be that dependent, you might as well do it where it's safer and Whiter [*] for yourself and families. That means the suburbs. And that's exactly what people in general have been choosing overwhelmingly.

The point is, downtown Toledo is about as close to that Manhattan feel as a frog resembles a telephone. There is no walking character, there is no walking-distance service, and there's no real public transit. DT Toledo has loads of nearly worthless buildings, looked over by speculators and politicians and stupid Liberals. Development downtown has uniformly been part of political ploys that obey no sound economic principles whatsoever. Therefore, all of those ploys are doomed to fail.

[*] Jack Ford's words, don't forget.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 24, 2013 at 05:29:27 pm     #  

Johio keeps beating his head against the truth: Nobody else is having that conversation with you.

Because Americans in general and Toledoans in particular are 100% dependent on petroleum-fueled transportation. They can't admit this culture is fatally wounded. That automatically means they are 100% delusional.

The downtown's current residential structure is still dependent upon the housing bubble. Buildings downtown are pretty much worth zero dollars. This is news to the owners and buyers, who like all speculators want as much money as possible for property. It's going to take about 15 more years of "denial economics" to run through, before people will finally throw in the towel and let buildings downtown relax to their natural value of zero. Of course, this will require more demolitions. We might well even see demos of buildings as large as the Spitzer; barring that, political willpower will ossify around such buildings, letting dozens of smaller buildings on the scale of the Durty Bird get razed instead. Regardless, square footage downtown will drop as all this abandonment and destruction takes place.

And then we'll be in a real pickle, as Toledo's environs try to effectively form little nations in order to keep the peace. The wise man knows energy starvation is coming, and prepares.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 24, 2013 at 05:39:26 pm     #  

GZ: how often do you actually come down and visit the WHD? I've lived and worked in the neighborhood for 6 years and have not seen whatever death and destruction you are ranting about.

Have you ever sat down and discussed this (face to face without your bully pulpit) with any of the people who bought/rent/work here? From what I've read, the answer is no. If you did, you might just soften up enogh to see that it's not just a bunch of "whitey yuppie speculators" living in delusion.

posted by Brewster on Jan 24, 2013 at 05:52:33 pm     #  

Johio,

Where do you and your fiancee work and how long have you worked at your present jobs?

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 24, 2013 at 05:55:47 pm     #  

GZ, having a walkable environment doesn't mean you never use a car. As has been mentioned on TT numerous times, Ann Arbor is a national model of a great walkable urban area. But ya know what? It's full of streets, with cars driving on them. Having a walkable environment doesn't mean there are no cars, it simply means you can easily get around an area without relying on a car. As I've said more than a few times now, since I've lived downtown, I've been able to easily walk to a good number of eateries, bars, and entertainment venues. I've never been able to do that when living in a suburb. That's what walkable means.

6th, neither of us work in downtown, if that's what you're getting at. We moved up here from Florida about a year and a half ago. I'm originally from here, she is not.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 24, 2013 at 06:10:49 pm     #   1 person liked this

did i read that wrong?! you moved TO toledo?! you must be out of your mind!!! ;)

posted by upso on Jan 24, 2013 at 07:12:13 pm     #   1 person liked this

"As I've said more than a few times now, since I've lived downtown, I've been able to easily walk to a good number of eateries, bars, and entertainment venues. I've never been able to do that when living in a suburb."

You could if you lived in or near downtown Perysburg or downtown Maumee. Not everyone's idea of "entertainment" means watching baseball or hockey.

Living in the downtown area of Perrysburg, one could easily walk to bars, restaurants, diners, coffee shop, some retail stores, Maumee River, library, grocery store, barber shop, hardware store, farmers market from May into October, First Friday's in the summer, nearby 577 Foundation, etc.

posted by jr on Jan 24, 2013 at 07:13:33 pm     #  

Yeah, and believe me... with the weather we've had the past week, I've been hearing about it quite a bit! I have to go back to Florida for work in two weeks, but for some reason that doesn't seem to make her feel any better about it.

jr, I agree with you. I think there have been some communication issues here, with there being a lot of people involved in the conversations at different times. I was responding to GZ, who was saying there is no walkability in downtown. I'm not saying downtown is the only walkable area.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 24, 2013 at 07:23:43 pm     #  

upso posted at 06:12:13 PM on Jan 24, 2013:

did i read that wrong?! you moved TO toledo?! you must be out of your mind!!! ;)

For me, it's called a reverse migration.

  1. moved into the region from central Ohio to be closer to Lake Erie and the Maumee River
  2. started in Perrysburg Township
  3. then lived in Rossford
  4. then moved into Toledo

posted by jr on Jan 24, 2013 at 07:45:35 pm     #   1 person liked this

GZ: how often do you actually come down and visit the WHD?

I walk by it often enough on my way to the Library. Why visit it? There's nothing I want there. Is there a library there? A grocery? A department store? A hardware store? Why are these concepts so difficult for you to follow?

I did stop by the zeroth block of South St Clair St, just the other day, to record storefronts and addresses for looking them up on AERIS. Very interesting results, namely few land holders and not much property tax being paid. But that should have been obvious. Is that what you wanted me to do when "visiting"? 'Cuz that's really the only use for the WHD that I have, in determining who's playing what dirty land game downtown.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 24, 2013 at 10:28:18 pm     #  

Johio said: Having a walkable environment doesn't mean there are no cars, it simply means you can easily get around an area without relying on a car.

Nice try at deflection, but walkable assumes there are places to commonly walk TO. That means a grocery, department store, hardware store... none of which are downtown.

I've never seen a middle-class person who needed access to "eateries, bars, and entertainment venues" on a daily basis or even weekly basis, but I sure as heck see that they need daily-to-weekly access to groceries, department stores and hardware stores. Put kids into the equation and that "downtowner" is roaring out of his underground garage at least twice a day.

Whatever example you believe you're setting, Johio, it isn't taken up except by a truly tiny percentage of the population. So the downtown is right for you and your fellow rarities. So what. The middle class isn't going to be following you, and you know it.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 24, 2013 at 10:37:08 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 09:37:08 PM on Jan 24, 2013:

Johio said: Having a walkable environment doesn't mean there are no cars, it simply means you can easily get around an area without relying on a car.

Nice try at deflection, but walkable assumes there are places to commonly walk TO. That means a grocery, department store, hardware store... none of which are downtown.

I've never seen a middle-class person who needed access to "eateries, bars, and entertainment venues" on a daily basis or even weekly basis, but I sure as heck see that they need daily-to-weekly access to groceries, department stores and hardware stores. Put kids into the equation and that "downtowner" is roaring out of his underground garage at least twice a day.

Whatever example you believe you're setting, Johio, it isn't taken up except by a truly tiny percentage of the population. So the downtown is right for you and your fellow rarities. So what. The middle class isn't going to be following you, and you know it.

Who is saying that the entire middle class should be living downtown?

Who needs a hardware store on a weekly basis?

Who can walk to a hardware store, a grocery store, and a department store from their home in suburban development models?!?!?

....are you on drugs?

posted by BusterBluth on Jan 24, 2013 at 11:16:44 pm     #   1 person liked this

BB Who is saying that the entire middle class should be living downtown?

Reading many of your posts, I have often wondered if you believe all of Toledo should live within WHD's borders.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 24, 2013 at 11:34:18 pm     #  

GZ - "walkable assumes there are places to commonly walk TO. That means a grocery, department store, hardware store" "I've never seen a middle-class person who needed access to "eateries, bars, and entertainment venues" on a daily basis or even weekly basis, but I sure as heck see that they need daily-to-weekly access to groceries, department stores and hardware stores."

If you go to a grocery store and hardware store more often than you go out to eat, to a bar, or out for evening entertainment... you're most definitely doing it wrong.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 25, 2013 at 10:47:50 am     #  

Johio83 posted at 09:47:50 AM on Jan 25, 2013:

GZ - "walkable assumes there are places to commonly walk TO. That means a grocery, department store, hardware store" "I've never seen a middle-class person who needed access to "eateries, bars, and entertainment venues" on a daily basis or even weekly basis, but I sure as heck see that they need daily-to-weekly access to groceries, department stores and hardware stores."

If you go to a grocery store and hardware store more often than you go out to eat, to a bar, or out for evening entertainment... you're most definitely doing it wrong.

If you go out to eat more often than cooking something in your home, you are obviously
1. single
2. have no children
3. making good money
4. living a lifestyle portrayed on friends tv show

If your living in a rented apartment, the building provides anything you would need from a hardware store.So that just leaves department store and groceries. If you eat out everyday at local restaurants then there goes your need for a grocery store. That only leaves a department store, and that could be done once or twice a month. So maybe those destinations aren't important to you.
On the other hand if you have a family, lower income, don't have a landlord that will fix anything, those destinations become pretty darn important, and if you have to drive 20 minutes to get to those places, wouldn't it be better to live closer to them?

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 25, 2013 at 11:02:59 am     #  

LC, you're equating "cooking a meal at home" to "a trip to the grocery store." Do you go to the grocery store every time you make something at home? Or do you go to the grocery store, stock up for a week's worth or so, and go from there?

My typical week:
1 trip to the grocery store, usually on Sunday afternoon.
2 dinners out, 1 breakfast out every Saturday with my dad and his friends.
1-2 nights meeting up with friends at a bar for drinks.
The rest of the nights, we cook something at home.
So in all, I make 1 trip a week to the grocery store, and 4 or 5 trips to a restaurant or bar.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 25, 2013 at 11:11:29 am     #  

And furthermore, the debate is about what makes an area walkable.

So I'll pose this question:
make a list of the bars and restaurants you most often visit, List A.
Make a list of the grocery stores and hardware stores you most often visit, List B.
Now, say you were given the option to have one of these lists within walking distance, and the other you'd have to drive to. You can still visit them however often you'd like, but one you can walk to, the other you have to drive to. Which would you rather have within walking distance?

posted by Johio83 on Jan 25, 2013 at 11:23:56 am     #  

i can't even follow what we're arguing anymore
is the question wether or not to demo and abandon downtown?
or that some people care about it and some people don't?

posted by upso on Jan 25, 2013 at 11:47:31 am     #   2 people liked this

upso, totally. It's been hard to direct responses to specific questions, because there are so many semi-related conversations going on.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 25, 2013 at 12:15:08 pm     #  

Used to have a grocery store in walking distance, and did walk there for single purchases or small amounts 1-2 bags. The pharmacy was in the drug store, limited hardware items in store. Old Kroger on Summit is where I am talking about. Could technically walk to the point for hardware, ice cream, restaurants, bars, VFW, videos. Actually living in the point you have a neighborhoods with most of what you need and if you're not far in the back you have a walkable community. If not walking you can ride a bike. Being out of shape as I am walking isn't something I do often, as much as I should either.
You didn't mention the other points on my list about marital/children status or income. I think the majority of the others posters arguements are more about what is available in your neighborhood versus a drive to a box store or mini/stip mall or to a full grocery store for items you cant get at a convienence store. I think the ESM used to fill that niche for a grocery store and almost covered a department store, until people with larger egos decided to mess with it. Not sure the ESM was walkable to your location though.
I think a single person or even a couple with no kids could easily find downtown living workable, and I would like to see some of the small utility stores open up downtown to cater to that population, Don't see anything wrong with a Deli or Bakery downtown area, maybe a ace hardware or hobby shop downtown, they used to have them there. Something like the old Macy or Gimbles, Lions, Dillards, department stores of the 50's/60's downtown could work with a larger residential population.
What I think we have is a cart before the horse problem, those stores aren't gong to come with out a thriving community downtown, and a lot of folks aren't going to move downtown without some of those stores being available. Being a downtowner though would be a good reason to buy one of the electric vehicles, but then again there isn't infrastructure to charge those either, yet.
Anyway just my rambling and thoughts on your down town living and my view and opinions of it.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 25, 2013 at 01:33:37 pm     #  

BB said: Who is saying that the entire middle class should be living downtown?

Johio, UPSO, etc. All of your class of person, basically, since you keep saying there should be more housing downtown. Who's supposed to buy at those price levels? Not the poor. The rich certainly aren't interested. So that leaves the middle class.

BB said: Who needs a hardware store on a weekly basis?

Normal people who maintain homes and fix stuff. Are you just being dense?

BB said: Who can walk to a hardware store, a grocery store, and a department store from their home in suburban development models?!?!?

West Toledoans. East Toledoans (bit of a walk, tho').

But to a certain extent, you're right. Car culture is everywhere... and it's strongest in the downtown. That makes the "walkable downtown" pretty much the most absurd label ever. People walk around downtown in two bursts: M-F Lunch, Happy Hour. That's not a community.

BB said: are you on drugs?

The truth is pretty heady, and I am frankly addicted to reading and learning. I think you got me dead to rights. LOL!

posted by GuestZero on Jan 25, 2013 at 01:41:40 pm     #  

LC said: Don't see anything wrong with a Deli or Bakery downtown area, maybe a ace hardware or hobby shop downtown, they used to have them there.

There are plenty of dead buildings for those to move into. I'd wager some are nearly move-in ready for a hardware store, which just requires floor space for racks and shelves, and power.

You know, in a nod to BB, there is a class of person who really doesn't use a hardware store: The twentysomething and thirtysomething yuppie who doesn't fix or maintain anything. And that's probably precisely the sort of person who buys into this loft and condo crap downtown. I mean, can you imagine Ben Konop fixing his sink in the Bartley Lofts? Painting a room? Doing anything physical that requires common structural knowledge? No, I can't either. I'm surprised those people know which end of the screwdriver to use.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 25, 2013 at 01:51:07 pm     #  

"those stores aren't gong to come with out a thriving community downtown"

Yup. "Retail follows people, never the other way around" as the saying goes.

And to answer your questions,
1) I live with my finacée.
2) No kids at the moment. We've discussed the issue of downtown+kids at length, and have more or less concluded that we have until they're probably grade school age before we'd need to consider whether or not it's suitable for kids. And with as much as downtown has changed in the past decade, who knows what it'll be like by that point.
3) I do alright, and she's teaching preschool.
4) Not sure which angle to come at this from, but I'm assuming you mean people who don't have dependents yet, and enjoy the freedom to have a social life whenever we want (as opposed to having a family, etc) So from that standpoint, yes. Unless you meant we never seem to have to go to work, and hang out in a coffee shop all day long. We're working on that part...

posted by Johio83 on Jan 25, 2013 at 01:53:39 pm     #  

GZ "since you keep saying there should be more housing downtown"

A vacancy rate of less than 4%. A 75 unit market rate apartment complex that opened up on January 1st of last year, and was fully rented before March. For someone who boast about what an economics savant he is, you'd think this wouldn't be so hard for you to grasp. Yeah, there are some Section 8 areas, but guess what: those exist everywhere else, too. And with your comments about people living in condos and lofts not needing to repair their residences, you're also acting like apartment complexes don't exist outside of downtown.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 25, 2013 at 02:09:53 pm     #  

Johio83 posted at 12:53:39 PM on Jan 25, 2013:

"those stores aren't gong to come with out a thriving community downtown"

Yup. "Retail follows people, never the other way around" as the saying goes.

And to answer your questions,
1) I live with my finacée.

2) No kids at the moment. We've discussed the issue of downtown+kids at length, and have more or less concluded that we have until they're probably grade school age before we'd need to consider whether or not it's suitable for kids. And with as much as downtown has changed in the past decade, who knows what it'll be like by that point.

3) I do alright, and she's teaching preschool.

4) Not sure which angle to come at this from, but I'm assuming you mean people who don't have dependents yet, and enjoy the freedom to have a social life whenever we want (as opposed to having a family, etc) So from that standpoint, yes. Unless you meant we never seem to have to go to work, and hang out in a coffee shop all day long. We're working on that part...

I would think that 2 would be the opposite, meaning that young children would be detrimental in an urban setting, doesn't sound like either of you have the time during the day to watch the kids, and being young they need to romp around. Are there any parks in your neighborhood? I would also think that young children and high traffic areas just a few feet outside the front door would also be something that wouldn't mix well. Mostly mean that you say until grade school but I would think the opposite, young children in downtown sounds dangerous for the kids, at grade school they know better to stay out of traffic at least.
Hope you can get to the point where you just hang out at Upso's and drink coffee.

posted by Linecrosser on Jan 25, 2013 at 03:29:18 pm     #  

The last thing DT/WHD needs right now is newly created retail space.

The ground floor is nearly 100% empty at each of the CP, Lasalle, Hillcrest, and Riverfront apartment buildings. I've noticed the wallpapering over windows has increased to mask how dead the area is economically.

DT and WHD has plenty of residents nowadays, but little retail has followed. Several bars and restaurants have arrived, but we are now seeing them close at a faster pace than new openings.

Even the chains such as BK, McD, and Taco Bell avoid DT because they know the market is too small. Subway only maintains limited hours and I recently noticed Magic Wok is M-F and closes at 5:30 p.m.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 25, 2013 at 05:46:23 pm     #  

LC: Hope you can get to the point where you just hang out at Upso's and drink coffee.

Even that option is only available M-F between the hours 8am-2pm.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 25, 2013 at 05:53:52 pm     #  

Johio: So in all, I make 1 trip a week to the grocery store, and 4 or 5 trips to a restaurant or bar.

You and your fiancee probably making more driving trips than that to & from work each week.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 25, 2013 at 05:57:21 pm     #  

Who knows what will end up happening with the Nicholas and Spitzer buildings, but the plan Ojibway Development has, should they be able to acquire them after the current legal issues are resolved, is to turn both into residential spaces on the upper floors (so 9 stories in Spitzer and 16 stories in Nicholas) with retail filling out the ground floors of each. I think this would be a pretty solid plan, given the fact that the LaSalle is already full. That would put something like 350 or so units on that one strip of Huron, so retailers would have good reason to believe they could be supported there. You're right though, new construction for retail doesn't make sense until there has been a drastic reduction in the vacant space that is already available.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 25, 2013 at 06:02:39 pm     #  

I was laughing when the DT McDs closed. That said everything that needed to be said, since it's the epitome of America's successful restaurant chain, which flourishes anywhere... except total economic ruins like DT Toledo.

Its replacement, Magic Wok, is following the only real model for DT eateries: Daytime workforce. Once again, it's still the case that DT Toledo is a M-F 9-5 place, and really nothing else. If it wasn't for government and courts, DT would have been all boarded up by now.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 25, 2013 at 06:08:57 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Johio: So in all, I make 1 trip a week to the grocery store, and 4 or 5 trips to a restaurant or bar.

You and your fiancee probably making more driving trips than that to & from work each week."

Yup, definitely. But the way I look at it relating to the walkability issue, if we lived in a typical suburban locale (not talking downtown Sylvania or Pburg or something, but a standard subdivision), we'd be driving for all of the trips previously mentioned. Living in a more urban area, we at least get to cut out some of the driving when we walk to restaurants or to a Mud Hens game or whatever.

Also, something that hasn't really been addressed: we both love baseball. Her being from Nebraska is actually because that's where her grandpa settled down in the waning days of his pro-ball career, for a farm team there. We probably take in at least a game a week during the season, which wouldn't be as easy to do if we couldn't just walk down the street and be there.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 25, 2013 at 06:11:15 pm     #  

Johio, in all due candor, I've heard plans and faux plans and farcical plans for the Nicholas and Spitzer buildings since 2002, and we still ended up where we are today: The only reason the wind doesn't howl through those buildings is that nobody can throw stones that high.

Heck, there was a grocery store in the Spitzer Building around 2004, and it was a total joke. It caused me to theorize that some minority got ahold of an SBA loan and used it to get people to pay a lot of money for their food. Again, remember: DT Toledo is still a car culture; real food prices are set by Krogers and Meijers and other suburban groceries. So that little grocery folded.

As for the Nicholas Building:

http://www.toledoblade.com/image/2012/10/08/800×600_b1_cCM/Floodwater-fills-the-basement-of-the-Nicholas-Building.jpg

Harumph! Well, so much for that. (BTW, I've stood in the exact location in the picture... when it was dry, of course.) It's 17 stories of nothing but spending for the new, unhappy owners. Toledo's limited socio-economic energy for revitalizing a big building, is being sucked up by the Fiberglas/Hytower. There's really nothing left for the Nicholas Building. Nor the Spitzer.

posted by GuestZero on Jan 25, 2013 at 07:35:42 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 10:34:18 PM on Jan 24, 2013:

BB Who is saying that the entire middle class should be living downtown?

Reading many of your posts, I have often wondered if you believe all of Toledo should live within WHD's borders.

That says more about you than me.

posted by BusterBluth on Jan 25, 2013 at 07:45:21 pm     #  

Although many of you often criticize the "driving around" method of analysis, it discovered the next downtown/whd bites the dust candidate/victim. The place has been a ghost town for a long time, so it has been operating zombie like hours for at least a year.

Fine Things Bistro, @ 38 St. Clair. I noticed a sign in the window Friday evening that read, "Temporarily closed due to equipment failure, see you Tuesday Feb. 5th.

Today, while in the area I parked on the street in front and a man inside was removing the sign and replacing it with a new sign. The business was closed, so I'm assuming he lives upstairs.

The new sign reads something along the lines of "Sorry we missed you for Sunday brunch, traffic was INSUFFICIENT so we hope to see you again soon." The Sunday comment is strange, since their posted business hours indicate they are closed on Sundays and Mondays.

He noticed us sitting in the car and opened the door for a few seconds. My passenger asked him, what is the equipment failure. He said the MICROWAVE quit working.

Nevertheless, as I've mentioned before here, that entire block is filled with businesses postponing throwing in the towel.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 03, 2013 at 10:29:06 pm     #  

Maybe the owner reads this thread and is going to try the special Johio83 whd business model? Close every winter, restrict operating hours, but remain open during the warmer months and all will be well.

Fortunately, the Johio83 lunacy of dividing a losing business into 2 businesses won't be attempted at 38 St. Clair. It appears Fine Things Bistro is less than 500 sq. ft.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 03, 2013 at 10:38:52 pm     #  

sunday has always been a ghost town
and fine things bistro has been dead since it opened.

don't judge an economy based on an off day and a shitty business

posted by nits on Feb 03, 2013 at 10:51:54 pm     #   3 people liked this

Because 444 creeped me out.

posted by Molsonator on Feb 03, 2013 at 10:54:05 pm     #  

Keep up, 6th. The people running Quimby's also own the building. I said the best thing for that building would be for it to be split into two properties, so that the entire space wouldn't be reliant on one tenant.

But I forgot, you're a financial mastermind and real estate wunderkind. Nobody should even offer an opinion if you're involved in the conversation.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 03, 2013 at 11:36:05 pm     #   1 person liked this

Fine Things Bistro is at 38 South St Clair St. That entire partial side of the block from the corner (#48 to #30) all seems to be in the name of KMOS LTD, which is a Steingraber organization, probably an NPO. I looked at each parcel in AERIS and didn't see much of any taxes being assessed, hence my assertion.

It's much the same situation on the other side of the street; #43 through #25 seem to have the same owner and/or next to no property taxes being assessed.

I assume this is all "Warehouse District" stuff, however it's arranged and however it's taxed. Also, again from AERIS records, from #43 through #21, and from #48 through #26, there was either a $0.00 sale amount given for property transfers, or there weren't any transfers noted at all. The transfer card images were missing. The only measurable sale was for #44 in 1999 at $145K. So we're basically talking about property under no pricing pressure, like no mortgages, at least none that are visible in AERIS.

So... to my point: I can't say I know, but it's possible for these little storefronts to be running without paying rent or anything close to market-rate rent. The property owners have already amortized. That would explain their longevity without much of a customer base. Hence, Fine Things Bistro might be able to just... linger. Certainly it explains how a business can shut down for a few business days for want of, what, a $60 microwave oven that's available in any department store across Toledo? Literally there are two dozen stores in which you can just walk in, grab a new boxed microwave oven for $60, pay for it, and walk out with it. Total time required: 40 min driving time, 5 min shopping time, 5 min checkout time, total 50 minutes.

Perhaps one of the real financial masterminds or real estate wunderkinds here can correct my statements, if necessary. Johio? You up for it?

posted by GuestZero on Feb 04, 2013 at 12:44:10 am     #  

Johio, you were surprising me with some decent sense during the conversations about section 8 tenants living in various downtown buildings. However, at least since the Quimby's thread you've slipped back into your former Looney Tunes uniform.

Out of respect to not only focus on downtown/WHD closings, it appears a couple Gap stores have bit the dust at Westfield/Franklin Park Mall.

Apparently, the mall has a waiting list of "prospects" to fill the two vacant stores. Maybe Fine Things Bistro and Swank Gifts are the prospects?

http://www.toledoblade.com/Economy/2013/02/01/Gap-shutters-2-stores-at-Franklin-Park.html

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 04, 2013 at 05:09:17 am     #  

6th, I haven't posted in this thread for like a week and a half, and then you randomly come out all "Johio's lunacy" and all that. I clarified that I was saying the building that Quimby's is in should be split into two separate properties, so that the entire space isn't entirely reliant on Quimby's alone to pay the bills.. What does that have to do with Fine Things doing poorly?

And GZ, I don't know the specifics of it, but I do know that St Clair Village is it's own entity of some sort. I don't know how they operate, though.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 04, 2013 at 09:49:39 am     #  

I was @ Frickers this afternoon for wings. Something was going on @ Huntington or Seagate, so I had to park closer to Lafayette today.

I happened to notice a new sign @ what used to be Fine Things Bistro.

This time it wasn't a lie claiming "equipment failure" or a broken microwave. It was simply the inevitable finally being announced...the place officially closed March 1.

I also noticed a FOR RENT sign in the window at Swank Gifts, so the official towel has been thrown into the ring there as well. That block is suddenly looking like the checkerboard of empty businesses some of us have been predicting.

And the hopeful Berdan developers want to add retail in the midst of a retail graveyard.

Yay.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 10, 2013 at 03:39:22 pm     #  

6th_Floor, you're right. no more retail needed at the moment.

Just to be fair to st. clair village, fine things bistro was not good and a crappy restaurant isn't going to survive anywhere. Put something good there and then we can experiment with the market.

do you think there will be more demand when the berdan building is filled with 100+ more people? maybe a laundrymat or something? or do you think it's just going to be dead no matter what?

posted by nits on Mar 10, 2013 at 07:26:52 pm     #  

Small grocery store would probably make a killing if located near where the apartments are downtown.

posted by Linecrosser on Mar 10, 2013 at 08:43:55 pm     #  

or do you think it's just going to be dead no matter what?

This ^

Certainly Berdan being renovated will help. However, I really don't believe a couple hundred more people living downtown is going to change much.

Especially since the Berdan news likely is going to reveal another round of goofballs thinking owning a bar, coffee shop, restaurant downtown is the fastest link to fame and fortune.

Without any new places opening and/or former places foolishly re-opening, the downtown market probably is getting close to the number of bars & restaurants that can be supported.

Exhibit A: http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/03/11/Downtown-entertainment-gets-cooking.html

It will provide folks such as myself & GZ with some entertainment, but hopefully we don't have a repeat of the moronic enthusiasm we witnessed last Spring about re-opening bars at the same locations...during an economic collapse, nonetheless.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 10, 2013 at 08:59:14 pm     #  

Linecrosser, the small grocery concept really doesn't work. Let's examine why. Real groceries need to be huge, since margins are tiny. Near trashy parts of town, even volume can't save them from "inventory shrinkage"... meaning loss from theft. That's why you see the grocery chains avoiding the real ghettos.

So you're looking at non-chain groceries. They make do with higher prices. And when it gets smaller still, the prices must be higher still. So you're locked into providing overpriced goods to fickle yuppies, which from downtown's evident practices, prefer to hop in their cars and just go into the suburbs to shop at Krogers, Meijers and Wal-Mart.

So it doesn't work. Or it's so risky that it'll drain even a deep-pockets fool before he throws in the towel.

Using these ideas as guides, I was skeptical about that quickie store right beside the downtown library, until I went inside and saw how they arranged it. It's an anti-theft zone inside. All the aisles of products are arranged so that the proprietors can keep a full eye on them from their counters. But you still can't make that model work with a grocery. It's too large to keep under that sort of physical surveillance, and tiny margins forbid the hiring of eyeballs to keep cameras constantly manned.

An automated grocery might be functional, putting a dead stop to inventory shrinkage, but that costs a mint to install. And it's not how Americans grocery shop anyway; we like to roam aisles and put our hands on product while making our selections.

posted by GuestZero on Mar 10, 2013 at 09:38:07 pm     #  

I can't speak to whether a grocery store cannot work, but I think the larger point with retail has always been that the neighborhoods needs to hit a critical mass of population before the retail is ever really sustainable. And even then, you'll see business fail because that's just what happens in life.

Most people don't see the change when you just look at it over the course of a month. But over the course of my lifetime, the population has risen >8233%, from 6 to 500. When Berdan and Easy Street are finished, that'll add 30% more residents and be around ~650. The place has come a long, long way and is trending upwards. I would stress some patience and suggest that just because fringe gift shops were ahead of themselves (St. Clair is not the Short North), doesn't mean for a moment that the trend isn't upward.

posted by BusterBluth on Mar 10, 2013 at 11:43:50 pm     #  

I think there are two very different paths a grocery store would have to decide to go down in order to have success in downtown, with the shared theme of each being "unique."

If it's a small grocer, it would help itself out with the lower overhead, but it would have to be unique enough to draw people in for reasons other than convenience. As GZ said, this model comes with higher priced goods, so you're going to have to make it a place that sells either higher quality or more specialized items. For instance, San Marcos - their offering isn't quite what you'd find at a Kroger or Target, so it has a draw.

If it's a large grocer, it needs to not only be the store's only location in the area, but probably the only "kind" of that store in the area, because it's going to need to draw from a wider area than just downtowners. For example, a full sized Churchill's or Anderson's wouldn't work there, because it would only draw people who were closer to the downtown location than any other. However, if a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's opened there, they would be drawing from the entire Toledo area. I know people who plan trips up to Ann Arbor just to hit Trader Joe's, so I have to believe there would be a significant net for them no matter where they opened in the Toledo area.

(And I'm not talking about what should go into the Berdan building per se, I'm just saying what I think would be necessary for a grocery store in downtown to succeed)

posted by Johio83 on Mar 11, 2013 at 10:50:57 am     #   2 people liked this

I was thinking more of a convenience store, small grocer carrying maybe more than what you would find at a 7-11. Geared for the downtown apartment dweller. How many places are there downtown you can walk to and pick up your basic food staples? Eggs, butter, bread and milk? Are there any delicatessens downtown where you can pick up some sliced meat or some sausages? I mean you could walk to Grumpy's for lunch but what if you want to eat in your own apartment? There are lots of restaurants downtown and surrounding areas by car. It just seems to me to make downtown a sustainable community they need some source of groceries within walking distance.

posted by Linecrosser on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:15:14 am     #  

Yeah, the Warehouse District Association actually has a list of "commercial venues" that they'd like to see open in their area, with an authentic delicatessen being high up the list.

Building on that, I personally think a kosher deli would be a great addition to Toledo's food offering. My two reasons:
a) Jewish Deli - enough said. The chance to go pick up some authentic corned beef and pastrami? Yes please!
b) There's a significant Jewish population in Toledo that currently goes to Detroit/Dearborn for their Kosher needs. It is also my understanding that Kosher standards satisfy a lot of the Halal dietary needs, so that would also be a benefit for the large Muslim population in Toledo.
c) In my mind, Toledo could always stand to embrace more of its cultural diversity. I'm glad the days of strict neighborhood divides based on background are gone, but it sure would be nice to be able to go to different areas and have people passionately embracing their heritage through food, the arts, etc.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:35:04 am     #   2 people liked this

One thing I'd like to see tried in Toledo (again): online grocery shopping. For a brief time in the mid 90s, Foodtown offered this. I used it several times during the first holiday season after my husband passed away because I just could not cope with going out to the store, but I still had two children to feed.

Peapod has been in the Chicago area for quite some time, as well as locations on the east coast. It doesn't appear that they plan on expanding any time soon.

But I wish someone local would give it a shot. I think that it would have better success now. In the mid 90s, not a lot of people were online shopping. That's definitely changed. My least favorite task is grocery shopping. Contrary to what GZ said above, I would nix roaming the aisles in a heartbeat--especially since everyone seems to think the bigger the store is, the better.

posted by valbee on Mar 11, 2013 at 01:21:17 pm     #  

it's not cheap, but these guys deliver to toledo:
https://michigan.doortodoororganics.com/

We have friends using it, and they love the service.

posted by upso on Mar 11, 2013 at 02:26:57 pm     #  

Nits: _Just to be fair to st. clair village, fine things bistro was not good and a crappy restaurant isn't going to survive anywhere. Put something good there and then we can experiment with the market. _

Apparently the owner disagrees with you and thinks the downtown location was crappy and not his restaurant. According to the sign, he is going to try his hand again somewhere along Monroe Street. I believe the sign reads near Alexis, but I'm not 100% sure.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 11, 2013 at 08:21:24 pm     #  

I just checked out their FB page for this first time, and it's kind of depressing:
https://www.facebook.com/FineThingsBistroCoffeeEdiblesCollectibles

I never had a chance to visit but I'm glad they've found a new location. Sounds like the warehouse district wasn't for them.

posted by upso on Mar 11, 2013 at 09:29:39 pm     #  

Fine Things Bistro will close downtown tomorrow. It is with a lot of regret we are doing this, but it appears to me there are too many challenges for us downtown. I am trying to determine our destiny, and am weighing the pros and cons to a location in Sylvania at the intersection of Monroe and Alexis. Tomorrow is the last dinner we will serve downtown. We may still be open on Fridays or Sat., as the liquor license is active, but there will be no food after tomorrow. Best Wishes to Downtown. Ken

GZ, how about a translation that may drive home the truth to those still lacking full understanding?

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 11, 2013 at 09:38:46 pm     #  

you didn't bold it right:

"but it appears to me there are too many challenges for US downtown."

posted by upso on Mar 11, 2013 at 09:45:04 pm     #   1 person liked this

...as well as their neighbor a couple doors down at Swank Gifts.

Upso, how about opening a grocery store in the area? I'd really like to put to rest all the chatter we have to read here from others posting that it would "make a killing."

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 11, 2013 at 10:21:45 pm     #  

If I had room we would! It's something we've talked about a lot but there is no space in our (leased) building. Its going to happen sooner than later and is best done by people with grocery expertise. Or deep pockets. :)

posted by upso on Mar 11, 2013 at 10:39:08 pm     #  

UPSO, I'm familiar with the Webvan fiasco, and I checked out Peapod.

So give it a rest. The median Peapod buyer makes over $80K a year. The median Peapod buyer using a smartphone makes $90K. That's about 3 times the Toledo municipal household income. These people spend an average of $160 on each order. Average.

That's why Webvan failed, too. Home delivery of common grocery items is a game for wealthy people, meaning at least the upper portion of the middle class, not the masses. Peapod was even in Columbus, but pulled out. There's a clue.

Look, it's time for brass tacks: If you want to live like you're in Chicago, then move there. Toledo is North Dayton. Lots of poor people live here, and they're only getting poorer. We don't have the wealth base. We don't have the incomes necessary to bring such yuppie crap here to Toledo.

And this... this is you, taking the piss:

"If I had room we would!"

You could slingshot a stone from your restaurant to the Erie Street Market facility with all the space you'd need. You'd have to sling that stone over lots of huge empty buildings, too. You have plenty of room, and the politicians of the City of Toledo would shit Tiffany's cufflinks to have you sign an agreement and open up a grocery anywhere in the radius of that slung stone.

So do it. But you won't. You know as well as anyone that it's too risky for you. That's what every other capitalist is thinking, too. Open a grocery with a few dozen aisles and your inventory shrinkage would bankrupt you in 6 months. The hood rats would sashay down Nebraska over that bridge and rape you whiter than you already are.

posted by GuestZero on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:28:05 pm     #   1 person liked this

"how about a translation"

Yowp. The guy's sign before said "traffic was insufficient". Knuckle-dragging simpletons like myself conclude that he didn't have enough customers.

But this "too many challenges" thing is beyond my black-and-white worldview. I only know that businesses that don't have customers, have to close down. When you don't have customers, you don't say you ran into "too many challenges". You say "I didn't have any fucking customers". But, you know, I'm one of the proletariat and as such, lack the refined nature to frame a suitable response. LOL!

We all know what's going on. We had a light winter and he obviously didn't have enough customers to keep the business open. Now he's hinting he'll try the losing-less angle, by opening fewer days a week. That just extends the agony.

If these guys like Mister Bistro and UPSO are going to run this little operation of pumping up the district, then they should pool their resources to open up a full-service grocery, with little side service joints like Krogers has now. They could then laugh at me for their resounding success, carefully picking up their cups of precisely brewed coffee, little fingers extended at the appropriate angle just to show where couth resides. Double LOL!

posted by GuestZero on Mar 11, 2013 at 11:52:53 pm     #  

What is in the ESM? I know they managed that place to death. Wasn't there a deli and other places in there at one time?

posted by Linecrosser on Mar 12, 2013 at 12:02:50 am     #  

I don't think anything is in the ESM besides the Libbey outlet, which still does a pretty brisk business. There was a restaurant there at one point that ended up moving behind the Davis Building (Pam's Corner) and there was also a pretty terrific italian deli at one point. I'd love to see a list of how many places came and went during the 2 decades that place was officially open to the public.

as for this:

You could slingshot a stone from your restaurant to the Erie Street Market facility with all the space you'd need. You'd have to sling that stone over lots of huge empty buildings, too.

all of the buildings between Grumpy's and the ESM are occupied with residential or residential construction.

Upso, how about opening a grocery store in the area? I'd really like to put to rest all the chatter we have to read here from others posting that it would "make a killing."

I have neither the time or the money. :)

posted by upso on Mar 12, 2013 at 08:13:00 am     #  

"and there was also a pretty terrific italian deli at one point"

Yep. Messina's Deli. It was indeed a terrific Italian deli - great Italian meats and cheese, fresh baked breads, etc. I have no idea what the real truth was behind him leaving, but Lou (Lew?) Messina and I had a number of conversations about the micro management and over reaching done by the city administration (Czarty) at the time.

I've always thought it odd that the seasonal Farmer's Market appears to do a very brisk business down there but that apparent success doesn't translate to anything inside the building.

posted by Foodie on Mar 12, 2013 at 08:36:02 am     #  

I think there are a great many things that cities should be involved in, if not entirely responsible for, but owning the property from which private businesses operate is not one of those things. And that goes for the Port Authority, too.

But anyway, I think I'd be perfectly content if the ESM reopened as it used to be (except privately run this time), with a small convenience store nestled in there somewhere.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 12, 2013 at 09:27:13 am     #   1 person liked this

I wholeheartedly agree with you on that Johio. At one point, at it's peak, the ESM kind of had a grocery market - though it was a combination of several vendors. You had the aforementioned Messina's, a wine vendor, another vendor who sold a wide veriety of condiments and specialty sauces, Rohr Fish and probably a few others I'm not remembering. I used to love going there. Then, when things began to go south and some of the "good" vendors began to leave, the city started bringing in the "junk" vendors and the place turned into a very bad garage sale.

posted by Foodie on Mar 12, 2013 at 09:58:22 am     #  

November 2004 thread Messina's Leaving Erie Street Market that pointed to NBC24.com story:

Louis Messina is closing his Italian Deli at the Erie Street Market, under the cloud of a court battle, unpaid rent, and more. Messina says the City of Toledo hasn't provided proper utilities and security for the Erie Street Market. He says his business and other vendors have suffered as a result of the city's lack of support. Messina's involved in his own dispute with the market. He'll be in court next week facing eviction. The city tells NBC 24 that Messina hasn't paid his rent in months.

"... a wine vendor ..."

I think the wine "store" at the ESM over 10 years ago was managed by the guy who started the Bronze Boar.

A good-sized Mediterranean food vendor also used to exist inside the ESM early last decade.

The market bay portion of the ESM peaked in 2001. That bay was packed with businesses. And many of the ESM businesses were open during the week and not just on the weekends, so it was possible to buy food at lunch or later in the work day. By 2002, the decline of the market bay was noticeable.

I don't know if the lease rate issue was true or a possible reason for the market bay's demise.

From an August 2002 blog post about the ESM's decline:

Last year [2001], I heard that the lease rates for space at the Erie Street Market were raised a lot, and I wonder if [that] forced people out

The Erie Street Market circa 2001-2002 - Old blog posts and links to old TT threads and media stories about the ESM.

posted by jr on Mar 12, 2013 at 10:44:48 am     #   1 person liked this

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/oakland_county/hundreds-told-they-were-no-longer-employed-at-company

I wonder how many people will be ripped off from this?

Additionally...400 people out of work.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 12, 2013 at 09:06:51 pm     #  

what does that have to do with this thread?

posted by upso on Mar 12, 2013 at 09:28:08 pm     #   4 people liked this

UPSO said: all of the buildings between Grumpy's and the ESM are occupied with residential or residential construction

Nope. You're not getting away this time, my fine feathered friend. It's hard to fathom why you're overlooking the buildings lining South Huron Street just short of the ESM complex. Al Peake & Sons moved out 3 years ago on the SE side, and that building alone is over 20K sf. 139 S Huron St; just check it out in AREIS. It's owned by Joan Peake, and there's nothing visually going on with the building.

Directly across at 144 S Huron St is a 13.5K sf property, owned by John Kiely. That's a coincident square footage since it's the same as the 13.5K sf Broadway Market at the corner of Broadway and South. Nothing going on with it either, at least visually.

As I said before, within the RADIUS of your stone's cast, you're going to find property setup for your visualized marketplace, other than the ESM. 144 S Huron St even has plenty of parking in surrounding lots, largely bordering Erie St.

So you don't have the money, UPSO. No crime in admitting that. But it's not just you. Surely the capitalists have noted all that brimming potential for opening a real grocery. Surely. But of course they won't do it, since it's a guaranteed loser, for all the reasons I gave before.

P.S. I just noticed your name can be re-arranged into SOUP. You are deviously deep, Sir.

posted by GuestZero on Mar 12, 2013 at 09:59:33 pm     #   1 person liked this

hi GZ you weirdo.

the Al Peake building is being actively rented. I have a friend that just signed a lease for a new business in the building. It's not empty. It's a huge space in a great location. I've heard of other interested partners including more residential. I feel like I might have a better finger on the pulse of that block than you do, but I'm happy to be proven wrong. Seriously. I'll be ok if i'm wrong. ;)

Just because "nothing is going on visually" in a building, doesn't mean things aren't going on. :)
there is a LOT of stuff happening uptown, downtown and in the warehouse district that doesn't have signs on the exterior letting walkers know whats going on.

Once again, i'm not opening a grocery so there is no sense in researching my options.

So you don't have the money, UPSO. No crime in admitting that. But it's not just you. Surely the capitalists have noted all that brimming potential for opening a real grocery. Surely. But of course they won't do it, since it's a guaranteed loser, for all the reasons I gave before.

I know it's super easy to arm chair art direct the demise of the city. Wether or not things go the way you clearly hope they go, I do hope you are staying happy... having fun... and enjoying the ride.

posted by upso on Mar 12, 2013 at 10:31:43 pm     #   32 people liked this

Dayuuuuuuuuuuuuum

posted by ocs on Mar 13, 2013 at 05:57:22 pm     #   1 person liked this

UPSO: "Just because "nothing is going on visually" in a building, doesn't mean things aren't going on."

Conversely, we should mention the same concept about all the false activity. Case-in-point...Swank Gifts & Fine Things Bistro had been open for a long time, but were dead money.

posted by 6th_Floor on Mar 14, 2013 at 12:37:39 am     #  

Absolutely

posted by upso on Mar 14, 2013 at 06:39:47 am     #  

18 likes!?! Is that the most "liked" post ever?

posted by oldhometown on Mar 14, 2013 at 09:27:52 am     #  

Pardon me...22 "likes"!

That's gotta be a record...along with the length of this thread.

posted by oldhometown on Mar 14, 2013 at 03:51:00 pm     #  

oldhometown posted at 03:51:00 PM on Mar 14, 2013:

Pardon me...22 "likes"!

That's gotta be a record...along with the length of this thread.

"Yes" on the most likes for a comment, but "No" for the most comments in a thread.

This thread is over two years old, and it has the second most comments.

This gun thread started three months ago has the most comments.

posted by jr on Mar 14, 2013 at 04:40:27 pm     #   2 people liked this

And Upso wins for "most patient and polite person in the face of adversity and trolling ever". Wow.

posted by endcycle on Mar 15, 2013 at 04:56:14 pm     #   12 people liked this

... I think the 25+ likes on upso's comment warrant this:

Poor GZarthy, he doesn't even get a participation award for his failure at trolling and perpetuating doom and gloom.

posted by anonymouscoward on Mar 15, 2013 at 09:23:12 pm     #   5 people liked this

It appears another person is going to give it a go at Murphys, Flame, & 151 on the River. I noticed people working there a month ago.

Apparently it's now named Fort on the River.

posted by 6th_Floor on Apr 16, 2013 at 07:47:34 pm     #  

So now there's Fort on the River directly across the Maumee from Foresters on the River? Interesting.

posted by Johio83 on May 03, 2013 at 04:24:35 pm     #  

My prediction is both of them will close within 18-24 months.

If the rent is priced low enough, the docks location probably will always find somebody willing to take the risks.

Apparently Fort is a sports bar. Just what downtown doesn't need...another sports bar. However, as previously has been mentioned, people are allowed to lose their money via their own decisions.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 03, 2013 at 06:48:21 pm     #  

Once the Berdan is completed and fully occupied, I think a large nationally recognized grocer will seriously consider a downtown presence. A smaller operation would probably do okay in the meantime, but I've lived downtown for 7 years and have no issue with traveling to westgate to do my 'bigger' shopping. If I need to just grab a few things, San Marcos and the farmers market usually meet my needs.

posted by Brewster on May 04, 2013 at 08:31:11 am     #  

"My prediction is both of them will close within 18-24 months."

Hasn't that been your prediction for EVERY place in downtown?

posted by Johio83 on May 04, 2013 at 01:43:32 pm     #   2 people liked this

Johio83 posted at 01:43:32 PM on May 04, 2013:

"My prediction is both of them will close within 18-24 months."

Hasn't that been your prediction for EVERY place in downtown?

Yea. And 24 months? Lame bet. Say three months and you're a little more ballsy.

posted by slowsol on May 04, 2013 at 02:07:36 pm     #  

Brewster posted at 08:31:11 AM on May 04, 2013:

Once the Berdan is completed and fully occupied, I think a large nationally recognized grocer will seriously consider a downtown presence. A smaller operation would probably do okay in the meantime, but I've lived downtown for 7 years and have no issue with traveling to westgate to do my 'bigger' shopping. If I need to just grab a few things, San Marcos and the farmers market usually meet my needs.

I doubt it. Once Berdan and Easy Street are completed, that would put the WHD at ~650 people. Probably not enough for a grocer quite yet.

I've always been curious about the building between Berdan and Bartley as a possible grocer location though.

posted by BusterBluth on May 05, 2013 at 11:42:23 am     #  

When they run the numbers for attracting grocery stores, they usually include downtown and the OWE into the mix.

posted by upso on May 05, 2013 at 12:34:21 pm     #  

I know we've beat this subject to death but I sure do wish Trader Joe's could see their way to make the numbers work.

I'm guessing (I have no idea) the majority of "new" downtown dwellers are in the under 40 crowd. TJ's in the ESM still seems like a good fit.

However, I'm sure they've (Trader Joe's) looked at the numbers and it just doesn't work for them.

posted by Foodie on May 06, 2013 at 09:06:56 am     #  

^ The city is still in communication with TJ's. won't happen this year or next, however.

posted by Brewster on May 06, 2013 at 10:04:11 am     #  

^ So that wasn't just Internet legend? The city really is in some form of conversation with TJ's? That's positive.

posted by Foodie on May 06, 2013 at 10:17:03 am     #  

Yeah, and some people in the Warehouse District Association in particular have had meetings with them. But yeah, that's the general sentiment: No signal that it will happen, but nobody is walking away from the table either.

posted by Johio83 on May 06, 2013 at 11:16:01 am     #  

Due to the ever-present need for parking, as is evident in all grocery presences, then there really aren't many sites where such a grocer can appear.

"the building between Berdan and Bartley"

I'm not sure what that means, BB. Can you give me an address or street frontline?

posted by GuestZero on May 06, 2013 at 11:24:09 am     #  

I'm thinking he means the small building on Erie, just across the small parking lot from Washington. I'm not sure that building would be big enough to hold much of a grocery store. A small deli and convenience store is probably the most you could fit into that building.

And this need for parking is only going to get worse. I've been advocating a joint effort to put up a garage around that location. Between Bartley and Standart already experiencing parking shortages (I know both have been seeking additional parking for a while now, the addition of Berdan is REALLY going to exacerbate that problem. I think it would be a great idea for those three locations to work together on a shared parking garage. The surface lot on Erie in front of Commerce Paper would be an ideal spot, in my mind.

posted by Johio83 on May 06, 2013 at 12:16:45 pm     #  

The parking lot at the Erie Street Market is larger than the one at the Ann Arbor Trader Joes location... so I'm not sure what the problem is there.

posted by toledolen_ on May 06, 2013 at 01:15:22 pm     #  

And larger than the parking for TJ's in Novi and the TJ's on Northwestern Hwy. off Orchard Lake Rd. - both of which are shared by other businesses.

posted by Foodie on May 06, 2013 at 01:19:17 pm     #  

Johio: Hasn't that been your prediction for EVERY place in downtown?

Why do you continue lying about things you claim I have posted.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 07, 2013 at 12:07:16 am     #  

Slowsol: Yea. And 24 months? Lame bet. Say three months and you're a little more ballsy.

Because being "more ballsy" doesn't have anything to do with this thread. Does it really matter if they close in 12-18 months instead of 18-24 months?

Even the dumbest business owners usually last more than 3 months. They pinch hours and imagine bullshit excuses such as gas leaks and broken microwaves to buy additional time before the inevitable closing date arrives.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 07, 2013 at 12:12:11 am     #  

Ah yes, another ballsy prediction for downtown...a nationally-known grocery store within the WHD borders.

How many years has this been tossed around? 10, 15, maybe even 20 years? LOL

posted by 6th_Floor on May 07, 2013 at 12:17:51 am     #  

6th_Floor posted at 12:12:11 AM on May 07, 2013:

Slowsol: Yea. And 24 months? Lame bet. Say three months and you're a little more ballsy.

Because being "more ballsy" doesn't have anything to do with this thread. Does it really matter if they close in 12-18 months instead of 18-24 months?

Even the dumbest business owners usually last more than 3 months. They pinch hours and imagine bullshit excuses such as gas leaks and broken microwaves to buy additional time before the inevitable closing date arrives.

I thought the point of this thread was for you tell us how bad Toledo sucks? 3 months in business would certainly drive that point home.

posted by slowsol on May 07, 2013 at 07:57:38 am     #  

*Johio: Hasn't that been your prediction for EVERY place in downtown?

Why do you continue lying about things you claim I have posted.*

Alright 6th, did a quick browse, and here are some of your comments about downtown locations:

"I doubt Jominics is still open Halloween 2014."

"It wouldn't surprise me if Home Slice closed soon."

"The proof will arrive when the doors close at each of the businesses mentioned in this thread."

"I really didn't expect the place to be open this long."

"Board the windows, padlock the doors, and forget about it."

"it's apparent to me that the largest part of figuring out when Bleakhouse closes is when Upso's friend Scott either gets tired of losing money there every month."

So, forgive me if I don't see where my claim that your calls for closings becomes repetitive and predictable is a lie.

posted by Johio83 on May 07, 2013 at 11:35:58 am     #   12 people liked this

(Actually, one of those comments was about Abuelo's, not a downtown location. But the sentiment is the same)

posted by Johio83 on May 07, 2013 at 11:37:00 am     #  

Considering that you've also claimed that I said businesses would close that I had not previously known existed, your recent drivel doesn't surprise me.

Plenty of downtown businesses are successful, but to maintain my persona here, I'll accept the label that I am hoping every one of them goes out of business.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 07, 2013 at 09:20:24 pm     #  

well that's not nice

posted by upso on May 07, 2013 at 09:51:19 pm     #   8 people liked this

Wow, I would love it if Trader Joe's came to downtown Toledo -- or anywhere Toledo, for that matter. I work 8:30-2:30 downtown, and would love to be able to pick up a few things on my way home there. (Dreaming of 3-Buck Chuck...)

posted by Anniecski on May 08, 2013 at 08:57:29 am     #   2 people liked this

^I do find it odd that, for whatever reason(s), the Toledo area doesn't meet TJ's demographic.

They offer a zillion items at very reasonable prices. Seems like this area would be all over that scenario.

posted by Foodie on May 08, 2013 at 09:04:35 am     #  

In communications with TJ? You mean they shoot e-mails to them and beg? Sorry. No chance.

posted by Molsonator on May 08, 2013 at 09:52:10 am     #  

I just used the contact form on TJ's website to request any reasonable information relating to their marketing plan for Toledo. Perhaps I'll be told something substantial.

posted by GuestZero on May 08, 2013 at 10:43:42 am     #  

Foodie posted at 09:04:35 AM on May 08, 2013:

^I do find it odd that, for whatever reason(s), the Toledo area doesn't meet TJ's demographic.

They offer a zillion items at very reasonable prices. Seems like this area would be all over that scenario.

Whenever we go up there, in Ann Arbor and usually on the weekends, and I get ID'd for wine (!!!!) the checkout kids always comment on how many Toledo people they get coming through.

The stuff they sell is great and really cheap. Way cheaper than Fresh Market. WAY cheaper than Whole Foods!

And, again, we have more parking available at the ESM than the Ann Arbor location.

In fact... I've been to Trader Joes in Chicago, L.A., San Francisco... and they rarely have much as far as parking goes.

They are also not taking up much space... these aren't massive grocery stores like a Kroger.

posted by toledolen_ on May 08, 2013 at 05:24:08 pm     #  

Kroger's didn't used to be so big back when they didn't try to sell furniture. They lost that friendly touch when they went to being a super store like Meijer, and Meijer still outdoes them in my opinion.
Wouldn't TJ be within walking distance for a lot of the downtown residence if they went in at the ESM?

posted by Linecrosser on May 08, 2013 at 06:22:06 pm     #  

Walking for downtown, warehouse and uptown, biking for OWE.

Again, the parking at ESM is as large or larger than the TJ parking lots I've seen in multiple cities. It's not like an IKEA where you spend hours in there cause it's so huge. People get in, grab what they want, and get out.

No need for a Kroger-sized parking lot... which is why they don't have large parking lots at their current locations.

posted by toledolen_ on May 08, 2013 at 07:06:51 pm     #   1 person liked this

Molsonator posted at 09:52:10 AM on May 08, 2013:

In communications with TJ? You mean they shoot e-mails to them and beg? Sorry. No chance.

No. The Warehouse District Association, in conjunction with the Mayors office, has sent a formal proposal, market study and location options. Discussions are still open and I don't any more information at this time. As soon as they know more, you will know more. If you attend a Warehouse District Association meeting you can stay on top of any developments.

If anyone is interested in getting a TJs downtown, there will be an opportunity to voice your collective opinion in the near future.

May happen. May not. But the attempt is there and I'm sure Toledo is on their radar.

posted by Brewster on May 08, 2013 at 08:51:24 pm     #  

Ok Brewster. I will keep an open mind.

About a year and a half ago, I read their location criteria and demo #'s needed. Downtown Toledo did not fit any of the major ones.

Still anybody trying to better the Downtown has my support.

posted by Molsonator on May 08, 2013 at 09:00:07 pm     #  

Also - if I remember correctly, someone from the City was telling people they were in negotiations when in fact Trader Joe's said that wasn't the case.

posted by Molsonator on May 08, 2013 at 09:13:54 pm     #  

My September 2008 comments :

At a Phoenix Earth Food Co-Op meeting last month, it was mentioned that a Trader Joe's would open in the Toledo area next year.

It was either they "would" open or "may" open. I can't remember.


http://www.traderjoes.com/pdf/locations/midwest.pdf

Ohio Stores

  • Cincinnati (near Kenwood and close to I-71 and closer to the I-275 loop than downtown Cincy)
  • Kettering (near Dayton and in the Eichelberger Shopping Center)
  • Columbus (in the Easton Town Center shopping area, near the I-270 loop, well northeast of downtown Columbus)
  • Dublin (near Columbus and in the Sawmill Shopping Center, close to the I-270 loop)
  • Westlake (close to I-90, between Lorain and Cleveland)
  • Woodmere (a little southeast of Cleveland, near I-271 and in the Eton Chagrin Boulevard shopping and residential area)

I'm guessing that if Trader Joe's enters the Toledo Market, it will be in or near Levis Commons in Perrysburg.

posted by jr on May 08, 2013 at 09:57:20 pm     #  

Related thread from February 2012 titled Trader Joe's in Toledo? - Comments: 78

Reposting a February 2012 comment from that thread:

"TJ's looks for three things: education level of the consumer, density of population and distribution efficiencies."

If Toledo supposedly meets those qualities, how come Cleveland and Detroit, which are bigger cities, don't have a Trader Joe's?

Several Trader Joe's exist in the Detroit and Cleveland metro areas, but none exist within those cities.

Trader Joe's locations:

  • Ann Arbor, MI
  • Grosse Pointe, MI
  • Farmington Hills, MI
  • Rochester Hills, MI
  • Northville, MI
  • Royal Oak, MI
  • Westlake, OH
  • Woodmere, OH

"They are fitted into strip malls, or outdoor "lifestyle" centers. ... they would attract customers from Monroe to BG and outward."

It seems Trader Joe's should open near Levis Commons or near the intersection of the turnpike and I-75.

posted by jr on May 08, 2013 at 10:08:10 pm     #  

Has there ever been a coop downtown? You'd think with the warehouse, uptown, and owe associations, organizing members would be feasible.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on May 08, 2013 at 10:25:58 pm     #  

there has not

posted by upso on May 08, 2013 at 10:47:12 pm     #  

jr posted at 10:08:10 PM on May 08, 2013:

Related thread from February 2012 titled Trader Joe's in Toledo? - Comments: 78

Reposting a February 2012 comment from that thread:

"TJ's looks for three things: education level of the consumer, density of population and distribution efficiencies."

If Toledo supposedly meets those qualities, how come Cleveland and Detroit, which are bigger cities, don't have a Trader Joe's?

Several Trader Joe's exist in the Detroit and Cleveland metro areas, but none exist within those cities.

Trader Joe's locations:

  • Ann Arbor, MI
  • Grosse Pointe, MI
  • Farmington Hills, MI
  • Rochester Hills, MI
  • Northville, MI
  • Royal Oak, MI
  • Westlake, OH
  • Woodmere, OH

"They are fitted into strip malls, or outdoor "lifestyle" centers. ... they would attract customers from Monroe to BG and outward."

It seems Trader Joe's should open near Levis Commons or near the intersection of the turnpike and I-75.

Not sure there's any spot at Levis Commons or Fallen Timbers that works for them right now, anyway.

posted by anonymouscoward on May 08, 2013 at 11:37:22 pm     #  

I've never seen a TJ's in some pre-fab "lifestyle" Levis-Common's-like space.

But like I said above... I've only been to the Ann Arbor, Downtown Chicago, Culver City (L.A.) and San Francisco locations.

posted by toledolen_ on May 09, 2013 at 12:06:28 am     #  

Plus, I don't think Trader Joe's sees their role as bringing people IN to a community. They are looking for a demo (like JR posted above) that fits their model. Unfortunately, no grocery stores see downtown as their demo, let alone a specialty grocery store.

posted by Molsonator on May 09, 2013 at 07:34:52 am     #  

toledolen_ posted at 12:06:28 AM on May 09, 2013:

I've never seen a TJ's in some pre-fab "lifestyle" Levis-Common's-like space.

But like I said above... I've only been to the Ann Arbor, Downtown Chicago, Culver City (L.A.) and San Francisco locations.

Westlake is a "lifestyle" mall, I think Northville is a strip-mall type setting though.

posted by anonymouscoward on May 09, 2013 at 08:59:11 am     #  

How about something like the old Foodtown/Kroger on Suder and Benore?

posted by Linecrosser on May 09, 2013 at 10:58:13 am     #  

Jr said: it will be in or near Levis Commons in Perrysburg

Or Holland. Where yuppie money is, and where Blacks aren't.

posted by GuestZero on May 09, 2013 at 11:16:46 am     #  

"Plus, I don't think Trader Joe's sees their role as bringing people IN to a community."

Yup. My favorite quote that encapsulates this sentiment: "Retail follows people, and never the other way around." Retailers rarely play the potential game, they go where the sure bets are. As far as TJ's in downtown/WHD goes, I think it's just a matter of convincing them that they'd be pulling a much larger sphere than just downtown. Which I don't think would be inaccurate at all, I think they would bring people in from all over the metro area no matter where they set up shop.

Futhermore, considering how busy the Farmer's Market is in that exact location should be testament to their potential for success. If a Farmer's Market can fill up the parking lots around the ESM every Saturday morning, I'd have to believe a full-service grocer would have no trouble attracting business in the same location.

posted by Johio83 on May 09, 2013 at 11:43:53 am     #   1 person liked this

But then you have an issue of competing with the farmers market dont you?

posted by Linecrosser on May 09, 2013 at 03:43:34 pm     #  

Nah, I wouldn't think so. Trader Joe's definitely has a green/organic reputation going for it, but I see a Farmer's Market's appeal being more of a grass roots, locally grown kind of thing. I would actually imagine having both in the same spot would actually increase activity at the Farmer's Market. Speaking only for myself, I would absolutely hit both locations any time I visited.

posted by Johio83 on May 09, 2013 at 03:54:59 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Futhermore, considering how busy the Farmer's Market is in that exact location should be testament to their potential for success."

But the downtown Toledo Farmer's Market is open only on Saturday's from 8:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. That limited window encourages busy activity. If that farmer's market was open seven days a week from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., would it be as crowded as a Saturday during peak harvest?

posted by jr on May 09, 2013 at 03:56:14 pm     #  

Hmm would TJ use product from the farmers market in their store?

posted by Linecrosser on May 09, 2013 at 03:58:02 pm     #  

"But the downtown Toledo Farmer's Market is open only on Saturday's from 8:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m."

But it's a farmers market, not a full-service store. If a farmers market, which really only has probably 10% of what people would typically need in their grocery shopping, can bring that many people out to an otherwise desolate location of town (the only other thing there is the Libbey outlet), I would have to believe a full-service grocer would have no worries about traffic.

posted by Johio83 on May 09, 2013 at 04:07:28 pm     #   1 person liked this

"I would have to believe a full-service grocer would have no worries about traffic."

If Trader Joe's or any other grocery store "believed" the same way, then a store would have opened downtown years ago. But I have a feeling that these companies don't open stores based upon beliefs. They probably rely on a more complex set of data than foot traffic for six hours a week at a farmer's market.

I visit the Perrysburg farmer's market on many Thursday evenings, and it's also busy. And it's growing. It has the room to add new vendors on both sides of the street and on a couple side streets. If farmer's markets are an indicator, then I guess this is another sign that a Trader Joe's would work in the Levis Commons area or on Route 20 east of I-75.

Based upon the current locations of Trader Joe's in Ohio and Michigan, opening a store in the downtown of a mid-sized city would be out of character for Trader Joe's.

"Has there ever been a coop downtown? You'd think with the warehouse, uptown, and owe associations, organizing members would be feasible."

For years, the tiny but sufficient Phoenix Earth Food Co-op has wanted to move further west (west of Douglas Road) to be closer to a large percentage of their customers.

Some items are cheaper at the co-op than elsewhere while many items are not. But the co-op only sells organic or environmentally-friendly food products and household items. They will sell food products from local producers when available.

The shockingly small size of the co-op would probably baffle most area shoppers who are used to patronizing giant stores. But the co-op is my favorite grocery store, and I shop there once a week for food and non-food items.

Other places that I occasionally shop at for food include The Fresh Market, Health Foods by Claudia, Zavotski Custom Meats & Deli, The Andersons, and farmer's markets.

A bit more about the co-op wanting to move from this February 2013 comment

I learned a few years ago, that the zip code that produces the most co-op customers is the one that covers the Westgate area, I think. Anyway, they wanted to move the store a bit further west.

In the middle of the last decade when the DeVeaux Village Shopping Center at Sylvania and Douglas was nearly empty, the co-op wanted to move to that location, but they could not afford it.

In May 2012, the co-op board surveyed members to find a new location. The three choices were:

  • 2636 W. CENTRAL Ave , Toledo, OH 43606 West of Douglas (Brewed Awakenings)
  • 2030 S. BYRNE St., Toledo, OH 43614 (Cooper Florist)
  • 2903 DORR St., Toledo, OH 43607 (Rocket Center)

posted by jr on May 09, 2013 at 05:27:07 pm     #  

Sure, but a co-op's location is in large part determined by the members that form it. If there were enough people in the warehouse, downtown, uptown, and owe areas that wanted a co-op and could sustain it, they could decide to put it in walking/biking distances to those neighborhoods.
When I lived in Minnesota, co-ops were everywhere, but that's mostly cultural.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on May 09, 2013 at 06:26:29 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 11:16:46 AM on May 09, 2013:

Jr said: it will be in or near Levis Commons in Perrysburg

Or Holland. Where yuppie money is, and where Blacks aren't.

Well the questions start being what are the old Krogers (Spring Meadows and Glendale/Reynolds) going to be after Kroger builds/moves?

posted by anonymouscoward on May 09, 2013 at 07:39:55 pm     #  

jr posted at 05:27:07 PM on May 09, 2013:

"I would have to believe a full-service grocer would have no worries about traffic."

If Trader Joe's or any other grocery store "believed" the same way, then a store would have opened downtown years ago. But I have a feeling that these companies don't open stores based upon beliefs. They probably rely on a more complex set of data than foot traffic for six hours a week at a farmer's market.

I visit the Perrysburg farmer's market on many Thursday evenings, and it's also busy. And it's growing. It has the room to add new vendors on both sides of the street and on a couple side streets. If farmer's markets are an indicator, then I guess this is another sign that a Trader Joe's would work in the Levis Commons area or on Route 20 east of I-75.

Based upon the current locations of Trader Joe's in Ohio and Michigan, opening a store in the downtown of a mid-sized city would be out of character for Trader Joe's.

"Has there ever been a coop downtown? You'd think with the warehouse, uptown, and owe associations, organizing members would be feasible."

For years, the tiny but sufficient Phoenix Earth Food Co-op has wanted to move further west (west of Douglas Road) to be closer to a large percentage of their customers.

Some items are cheaper at the co-op than elsewhere while many items are not. But the co-op only sells organic or environmentally-friendly food products and household items. They will sell food products from local producers when available.

The shockingly small size of the co-op would probably baffle most area shoppers who are used to patronizing giant stores. But the co-op is my favorite grocery store, and I shop there once a week for food and non-food items.

Other places that I occasionally shop at for food include The Fresh Market, Health Foods by Claudia, Zavotski Custom Meats & Deli, The Andersons, and farmer's markets.

A bit more about the co-op wanting to move from this February 2013 comment

I learned a few years ago, that the zip code that produces the most co-op customers is the one that covers the Westgate area, I think. Anyway, they wanted to move the store a bit further west.

In the middle of the last decade when the DeVeaux Village Shopping Center at Sylvania and Douglas was nearly empty, the co-op wanted to move to that location, but they could not afford it.

In May 2012, the co-op board surveyed members to find a new location. The three choices were:

  • 2636 W. CENTRAL Ave , Toledo, OH 43606 West of Douglas (Brewed Awakenings)
  • 2030 S. BYRNE St., Toledo, OH 43614 (Cooper Florist)
  • 2903 DORR St., Toledo, OH 43607 (Rocket Center)

Old Churchill's location is available?

posted by anonymouscoward on May 09, 2013 at 07:43:03 pm     #  

AC said: Well the questions start being what are the old Krogers (Spring Meadows and Glendale/Reynolds) going to be after Kroger builds/moves?

I've heard the SM area isn't faring as well as in the mid 2000s. So that location may sit empty.

I never have occasion to go that way myself, hence I'm just not going to check.

I never understood why two Krogers were so close together on the eastern end of Glendale; you can stand in the road near the Glendale/Byrne plaza entrance and see the Krogers building corner at Glendale/Detroit. I've gone to both of those often enough, and both were hoppin' busy. And there's another Krogers at the western end, Glendale/Reynolds as you say. At any rate, I can't predict that one.

posted by GuestZero on May 10, 2013 at 11:53:17 am     #  

I was a member at Phoenix for a few years, but quit going after finding alternatives during the Sylvania Avenue construction.

I've never seen so much anticipation and wishful thinking about a grocery store as certain Toledoans seem to have about one locating within the WHD.

If WHD ever gets a grocery store, I see it being more similar to Phoenix than Trader Joes or any other major chain.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 10, 2013 at 10:22:09 pm     #  

In spite of the regular fools here who state Table 44 is doing a great amount of business, they still aren't paying their property taxes.

In March 2012 I posted that they were 13k behind.

I decided to test whether or not the fools' claims about Table 44's success would show up via them paying some of their delinquent property taxes.

Nope. Areis currently is showing 610 Monroe Street (Table 44) owing $23,915.22 delinquent property taxes.

The city of Toledo should be forcing deadbeat businesses such as Table 44 to either pay what they owe or shut their doors.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2013 at 01:18:43 pm     #   1 person liked this

any idea how far behind they'd have to be to rack up 24k?

posted by upso on May 11, 2013 at 02:36:18 pm     #  

Paid over 3k in Feb and Jul last year, but that didn't cover previous taxes or new taxes. Hasn't paid anything this year. Looks like they bought it in 2009, there was some regular tax payments made until 2011. They are on a monthly payment plan but not keeping up.

posted by Linecrosser on May 11, 2013 at 03:15:48 pm     #  

Oops paid something in Feb and Nov 2012.

posted by Linecrosser on May 11, 2013 at 03:16:37 pm     #  

Nolan Rosenkrans, is there any chance for your bosses to print a story about area businesses not paying their owed property taxes?

I think Toledoans should be aware what area businesses aren't paying owed taxes. Personally, if I know a business is owned by deadbeats, I won't spend my money there.

Upso, at this point, merely the interest and penalties are adding a few k per year onto what they already aren't paying. I believe I read on my most recent property tax statement the interest and penalties were increased, too. So, 44 soon will be totally buried by an avalanche of interest and penalties, plus the regular bi-annual billed amount.

The city should not allow this for an indefinite time period. Either 44's owners should have to pay the full balance or the property should be sold via a sheriff's auction.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2013 at 05:41:35 pm     #   2 people liked this

Were you drunk when you posted this johio83?

I don't know what the deal with them being behind on their tax payments, but I do know that they're doing well. They've poured quite a bit of the money generated by the downtown location to renovate the Chop House into a second Table Forty 4 spot.

They've done a heck of a job with 610 though, haven't they?

! posted by Johio83 on Feb 17, 2012 at 04:35:07 pm

Yeah, it looks obvious how well they're doing at 610 Monroe dba Table Forty 4.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 11, 2013 at 06:18:30 pm     #  

I don't know how those are mutually exclusive. Chop House was failing, Table Forty 4 (at least a year ago, I can't speak for now) was doing very well. He took the profits from the downtown location and used it to try to revive the Maumee spot. It didn't work. I don't see how the Maumee spot not being able to survive means my statement was inaccurate.

posted by Johio83 on May 12, 2013 at 09:46:14 am     #  

Johio, how can you call it "taking profits" when by legal and accounting definition, past due bills like property taxes mean you had no profits? The IRS and courts won't agree with you that you had profits if you had, for example, borrowed money then declared bankruptcy on it all.

I just checked the AERIS record for 610 Monroe St, the street address of the land parcel containing Table Forty 4. They're at $23K past due right now. Come Aug 1st, that will rise to $29K. And this trouble started in 2009 (all documented on AERIS), meaning the "deep pockets" effect of camouflaging bed investment in downtown Toledo is running out. We really did crash the U.S. economy in 2008/2009, and all the government's done since then was camouflage it.

It's all a huge scam. A fraud. Somebody's gotta say the emperor's naked.

P.S. I wonder when there's going to be a fire at Table Forty 4.

posted by GuestZero on May 12, 2013 at 02:52:39 pm     #  

No doubt, not paying taxes is not ok. I have absolutely no disagreement there. But just because somebody didn't pay their taxes doesn't mean they didn't have profits. When I wrote that comment 6th quoted from a year and a half ago, I know they were bringing in good money, which they then poured into the other location. Obviously that bet didn't pay off, and they should have just used the money to pay their taxes like they're supposed to, as anyone with an income should do. As for how they're doing these days, I have no idea.

posted by Johio83 on May 12, 2013 at 04:02:01 pm     #  

Remember when Greg Fish at South Toledo Golf Club couldn't pay his taxes the City gave him a contract to run the municipal courses. Agreed GZ.

posted by Molsonator on May 12, 2013 at 05:37:28 pm     #  

Johio, seriously, I used English. If you avoid paying your bills then imperiously declare you're profitable, then legally speaking you're in error; your balance sheet is unbalanced. By generally accepted accounting principles, you can't claim certified results. That's why we have accounting rules in the first place: To determine the winners and losers. And I'd have to say that Table Forty 4 is a loser.

At $23915 owed on a yearly tax bill of $10476, albeit packed with interest or penalties, that's 2.25 years equivalent tax owed. Just a few months coming up, that's 2.75 years. Table Forty 4 is done, like a good Thanksgiving dinner. Time to re-name it "Table Mortal Coil".

posted by GuestZero on May 13, 2013 at 02:04:59 pm     #  

Once again, I'm not refuting that they are obligated to pay their taxes. But the question was whether or not they were making money, which at that time, they were. Whether or not they paid their taxes has nothing to do with their profitability at the time. This is why the IRS exists, because not everyone who makes money pays their taxes.

posted by Johio83 on May 13, 2013 at 02:14:48 pm     #   1 person liked this

.... not to derail this awesomely off-topic conversation, but i drive by Easy Street every day on my way home and I have been seeing more and more activity lately. Any news on it?

posted by endcycle on May 13, 2013 at 02:28:08 pm     #  

should be open by summer! i've met the developers and they are really amped to get it rolling

posted by upso on May 13, 2013 at 03:09:42 pm     #   1 person liked this

GuestZero said:

By generally accepted accounting principles, you can't claim certified results. That's why we have accounting rules in the first place: To determine the winners and losers.

Shows what you know. There is only ONE rule in accounting: YOU CAN MAKE THE NUMBERS DO OR SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT THEM TO IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT RIGHT.

posted by Sohio on May 13, 2013 at 03:12:03 pm     #   1 person liked this

For the record, I don't give a flying fuck who's making/not making what downtown. Or in South Toledo. Or pretty much anywhere else.

If you've got the deep pockets or found some venture capitalists or filled out 10,000 bank forms to finance your dream of working your ass off, hey go for it.

But I do give a flying fuck about back taxes. I hate it. As I said in an earlier thread, unless there is some documented tax dispute case proceeding through the courts (federal/state/local--don't care), stiffing the tax man should be a mortal injury for a business or building owner. Instead, somehow, these bills are allowed to keep getting bigger.

In the meantime, Mr. and Mrs. Small Potatoes worry about a full anal exam audit over a $250 deduction they mistakenly thought was still legal, but didn't realize expired the previous year (for example). What a FUBAR system.

posted by oldhometown on May 13, 2013 at 03:34:02 pm     #   1 person liked this

Johio said: Whether or not they paid their taxes has nothing to do with their profitability at the time.

That you persist with that nonsense shows that you're borderline mentally retarded in finance and business. Please never try to run a business of any sort, be it a Fortune 500 firm or a lemonade stand. Your own accountant would shut you down.

Necessarily this is the last time I intend to point these things out to you. I'll leave further responsibility for that to your psychiatrist.

posted by GuestZero on May 13, 2013 at 03:47:02 pm     #  

Endcycle said: i drive by Easy Street every day on my way home and I have been seeing more and more activity lately

That's surprising. What activity is that?

You know, I'll drop by the library tonight, and will take the opportunity to swing by there.

posted by GuestZero on May 13, 2013 at 03:49:04 pm     #  

Businesses not paying taxes, but freeloading from services that are provided by tax dollars (I wonder how much water a restaurant uses...) is something to get angry about. Freeloading on a scale that big just makes the burden on the individual taxpayers even heavier.

posted by clt212 on May 13, 2013 at 03:49:26 pm     #  

Sohio desperately said: "YOU CAN MAKE THE NUMBERS DO OR SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT"

If that was true, then AERIS would show them paid up to date. You can't make external bills just go away, Sohio. For that, you generally need to buy a Congressman.

My personal opinion is that the owners of T44 are gambling that the city or county just won't go after them for the property taxes, due to the downtown development scam being so popular right now. Maybe that's the correct gamble. And maybe it's not. Looking that two of you idiots posting here can't even bring yourselves to admit the emperor is naked, shows that it's a distinct possibility.

posted by GuestZero on May 13, 2013 at 03:53:22 pm     #  

Aaaaaaand back to people with conversational skills that don't require an insult with every breath.

I'm pretty pumped about Easy Street. It's such a beautiful building, and I think could really offer something Toledo doesn't have. There aren't many options for people who want an urban residence, but don't like the idea of being in a high rise apartment, and I think this will address that very well.

posted by Johio83 on May 13, 2013 at 03:58:06 pm     #  

#1

As someone with very close information on Table Forty 4, they're doing just fine. I don't know what the deal is with the $13K owed to the city, but they're paid up on everything else. And doing well enough to have refurbished the Maumee Chop House to be updated into a second Table Forty 4 location.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 21, 2012 at 11:05:12 pm

----------------------

They probably weren't doing fine a year ago, but it isn't important since we now can conclude they're obviously doing "less fine" as well as not paying anything toward their delinquent and growing property tax debt.

Nothing positive has happened to improve their business from a year ago. In fact, plenty has happened to decrease it since last year. Most notably the opening of Cock N' Bull, which seemingly has taken some of their former customers.

#2

Well that amount is only one pay period delinquent. That would be like if a credit card company cancelled your card if you fell behind on it. If that happened, very few people would have credit cards anymore. It wouldn't behoove them to do that, because they'd lose too many customers who would otherwise make good on their debts. Now, if they hadn't paid up since '08 or something like that, then there would probably be more cause for concern.

posted by Johio83 on Mar 22, 2012 at 07:02:23 am

-------------------------

It isn't the same as one credit card period. They are 2.5 years delinquent and it will soon be equal to 3 years delinquent.

I think it's important to note that they've only owned the building since April 2009. So they haven't even paid close to half their billed amount.

These owners obviously are spread too thin financially. A lien should be placed on the property to force them to either pay the entire debt or sell the property to pay the debt.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2013 at 07:21:52 pm     #  

Johio: Whether or not they paid their taxes has nothing to do with their profitability at the time. This is why the IRS exists, because not everyone who makes money pays their taxes.

So they are just criminals, not people with a cash flow problem. That is an important distinction.

posted by justread on May 13, 2013 at 08:06:59 pm     #  

The IRS has nothing to do with county property tax, If you don't pay all your bills are you profitable? Suppose they paid their taxes but never paid for any of their food or other supply companies. Would they then still be in business and making a profit. I'm not a CPA but don't you have to subtract ALL your costs from your income to determine NET income? I would say that property tax is part of that cost of doing business. The owners wife's new car wouldn't be but property tax on the building your business is in sure would be.

posted by Linecrosser on May 13, 2013 at 08:16:09 pm     #  

"It isn't the same as one credit card period. They are 2.5 years delinquent and it will soon be equal to 3 years delinquent."

Right, but at the time I said the quote you posted from me, it was February '12, and there was only one payment of record (2nd half '11) that they were delinquent on. It's a very different situation now, obviously, as they still haven't made a payment. We aren't disagreeing with each other here.

posted by Johio83 on May 13, 2013 at 09:30:35 pm     #  

When I have the time later this week, I'm going to research other downtown businesses.

It wouldn't surprise me if other business owners repeatedly mentioned here as having fantastic business acumen, with allegedly well-run, profit-oozing businesses are in fact broke zombies far behind with property tax payments.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2013 at 09:51:41 pm     #  

Is there reason to believe this would be exclusive to downtown? I mean, Chop House was in Maumee, and that's failed three times in two years. (Chop House, Table Forty 4, Celtic)

posted by Johio83 on May 13, 2013 at 10:29:16 pm     #  

Johio83 posted at 10:29:16 PM on May 13, 2013:

Is there reason to believe this would be exclusive to downtown? I mean, Chop House was in Maumee, and that's failed three times in two years. (Chop House, Table Forty 4, Celtic)

That area is all cursed Indian burial ground, I'm sure of it.

posted by anonymouscoward on May 13, 2013 at 10:53:31 pm     #  

johio83 makes a good point. i'm curious to know, city wide, how bad thing really are!

posted by upso on May 13, 2013 at 11:01:14 pm     #  

Johio, I'll mostly be looking at downtown parcels. However, by all means post any and every business owner you know about throughout the metro area not paying property taxes.

Tom Cousino has owed 10's of thousands of unpaid property taxes at both his steak house and the now closed and bank repossessed Pasqualone's restaurant property. He recently transferred ownership of the steak house building to some llc I believe that's owned by his son. However, unpaid property taxes still exist there.

Also, he walked away from 100k of unpaid rent at the docks location before being evicted. Nobody should be eating at his steak house knowing how he has skated paying what he owes.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 13, 2013 at 11:55:57 pm     #   1 person liked this

Upso, you have close contacts at City Paper and Free Press...make it happen. It's time to start exposing these crooks! I believe some public humiliation may shame many of them to at least pay some of what's owed.

Fred L, if you are reading this how about some WSPD air time?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 14, 2013 at 12:00:09 am     #  

One would think that if the City is crying that they are broke and have to jack up rates on everything that they would be all over delinquent taxpayers like white on rice. How many people would be happy to hear that their water bills are going up while these guys are tens of thousands behind on taxes?

posted by anonymouscoward on May 14, 2013 at 01:47:07 am     #  

The water bills are going up either way.

posted by justread on May 14, 2013 at 06:35:45 am     #  

justread posted at 06:35:45 AM on May 14, 2013:

The water bills are going up either way.

How different would the situation be if businesses that use so much water as part of their everyday operations paid their taxes on time? Would as much of the burden fall on the individual taxpayers in the city? Probably not. Yes, there are going to be rate increases, especially with the upgraded infrastructure, but the increases wouldn't be as high for individuals if heavy users actual paid for their share instead of paying nothing at all for multiple years.

posted by clt212 on May 14, 2013 at 08:31:15 am     #  

@6th i'm pretty sure all the papers are reading this message board :)

posted by upso on May 14, 2013 at 08:59:53 am     #  

Looks like the dust in Toledo has more tooth marks when you look closely.

A good friend bent my ear last night about Michael's Bar & Grill; she asked me to look it up on AERIS. I did so, and found yet another tax deadbeat. I don't know who is really responsible at this point, since MB&G is family entwined with the "LAGRANGE INVESTMENT CORPORATION" that owns the property itself.

Address: 901 Monroe St
Parcel: 1217671
Status: "DELINQUENT PAYMENT PLAN"
Payments: about $220/mo
1st Half Due: $3669.52
Collected: $436.77
2nd Half Due: $4071.40
Collected: $878.79

On the payment plan, apparently taxes are applied to the 2nd Half too. So I have to take the entire year as a unit. GOOD.

From total taxes due of $3669.52+$4071.40=$7740.92, these guys are paying about $220/mo, therefore $2640/yr.

Therefore, the building that Michael's Bar & Grill is in, is behind. Seriously behind. On this so-called payment plan, they're projected to end up $5100 in the hole by year's end.

This is why I keep demanding that you cheerleaders tell us which of these places are the downtown success stories.

{pause} Huh. I remembered that MB&G has a neighboring building and parking lot. Those are also behind in their property taxes.

Address: 903 Monroe St (half of a building)
Parcel: 1217667
Due (year): $2072.76+$2269.36=$4342.12
Payment plan: about $120/mo
Year End Balance: about $2900 still owed

Address: 907 Monroe St (remaining half of a building)
Parcel: 1217664
Due (year): $2278.02+$2458.87=$4736.89
Payment plan: about $120/mo
Year End Balance: about $3300 still owed

Address: 909 Monroe St (parking lot used by MB&G)
Parcel: 1217661
Due (year): $1159.96+$1269.10=$2429.06
Payment plan: about $70/mo
Year End Balance: about $1600 still owed

Phew! For such a tiny stretch of Monroe Street, that's $12900 delinquent pretty much guaranteed by year's end.

What I know about the LDC so far is:

Name: LAGRANGE INVESTMENT CORPORATION
Ohio Corporation: 929674
Registered Agent: George M Yakumithis
Incorporator: Paul F. Syring
Status: Cancelled

Further research shows that a Michael Yakumithis is the owner of MB&G, and the principal is John Yakumithis. Probably the same family.

Ref: http://www.manta.com/c/mm5t700/michael-s-bar-grill

Disclaimer

I have no connection to these entities. Also, AERIS is fairly clear about money flows, so any errors noted above would belong to the office of the Lucas County Auditor.

posted by GuestZero on May 14, 2013 at 10:12:50 am     #  

UPSO said: i'm pretty sure all the papers are reading this message board

Then they'd better get hopping. I'd love to see a weekly series in The Blade called "Deadbeat Toledo" or "Untaxed Toledo", where one of these deadbeats is featured, interviewed, and their family and corporate finances traced down to the last embarrassing purchase of lacey underwear.

Nolan Rosenkranz, where are you?

posted by GuestZero on May 14, 2013 at 10:16:47 am     #  

I'm out trying to find the Z in my name.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on May 14, 2013 at 10:26:14 am     #   5 people liked this

What can they actually do? Take possession of the properties? Put a lien on them?
I can't see the county running these business's because when has any form of government ever ran anything but into the ground, a lien is possible if the property is ever sold they get something from the sale but what does that do to a business trying to operate? In this economy its going to be tough to ever realize anything from these deadbeats.
What surprises me is that some of these establishments that people were raving over as doing great, apparently aren't. From outside appearances Cousino was successful and doing great from all the posts and news I read for the last 5 years. And now it turns out he's been racking up debt that he has somehow walked away from? Are some people getting off the hook by favoritism? I don't know who knows who in Toledo I don't follow who are members of whatever party or team that seem to control the area, and frankly don't care to far as that goes. But you have to wonder sometimes if this is all just a big scam for people to scratch each others backs and make money while racking up debt else where than pocket the cash and leave before its discovered. Who ends up on the hook for all the unpaid taxes when the shit hits the fan?

posted by Linecrosser on May 14, 2013 at 10:49:58 am     #  

GZ-

I don't believe that your numbers are correct. For 901 Monroe Street...

The half taxes are $838.65 (Net Generals of 679.74 plus Net Specials of $158.91) Prior to that period, it looks like they owed $2,830.87 in taxes, interest and fees from prior periods. Once they didn't make their first half payment in January 2013, that figure is rolled forward into the 2nd half total.

It appears that 901 Monroe has been on a payment plan for quite some time - not necessarily keeping up with it though (it would appear.)

They made a payment of $218.43 on 10/5/12 and a $218.34 payment on 1/23/13 - both of which were applied to the first half taxes due.

Subsequently, they made payments of $218.43, $218.43, $217.55, and $224.38 in Feb.-May 2013 - those payments were applied to the second half taxes.

As a result of all of this, they have total outstanding due totaling $3,192.61 - which is due 7/31/13.

This does not take into account any payments that they make between now and 7/31/13. Any payments made, will be reduced from that total.

Still not good, and unacceptable - but not as bad as you had originally indicated above.

I don't have the time to double-check them all, but I'm going to assume that the rest of the figures you provided also are off a little bit.

Basically, if you go to the "summary" page on AREIS and scroll to the taxes at the bottom... the total amount due on 7/31/13(current and delinquent) is listed under the "2nd Half" column in the "unpaid" row. Honestly, I don't recall if that includes fees and interest, or not.

posted by wahhutch9 on May 14, 2013 at 10:59:08 am     #  

His numbers were on when I looked two days ago. Unless they just recently updated the sites data.

posted by Linecrosser on May 14, 2013 at 11:03:54 am     #  

Its 610 Monroe street by the way you have the wrong address.

posted by Linecrosser on May 14, 2013 at 11:06:59 am     #  

clt212 posted at 08:31:15 AM on May 14, 2013:
justread posted at 06:35:45 AM on May 14, 2013:

The water bills are going up either way.

How different would the situation be if businesses that use so much water as part of their everyday operations paid their taxes on time? Would as much of the burden fall on the individual taxpayers in the city? Probably not. Yes, there are going to be rate increases, especially with the upgraded infrastructure, but the increases wouldn't be as high for individuals if heavy users actual paid for their share instead of paying nothing at all for multiple years.

I'd be interested to see those spread sheets side by side. The amount that they intend to raise with increases is enormous.

posted by justread on May 14, 2013 at 11:21:18 am     #  

Linecrosser posted at 11:06:59 AM on May 14, 2013:

Its 610 Monroe street by the way you have the wrong address.

No, you have the wrong address. He is talking about Micheal's.

posted by slowsol on May 14, 2013 at 11:22:43 am     #  

Linecrosser posted at 11:03:54 AM on May 14, 2013:

His numbers were on when I looked two days ago. Unless they just recently updated the sites data.

The numbers he used and posted are still on AREIS. He is just interpreting them incorrectly.

posted by wahhutch9 on May 14, 2013 at 11:33:02 am     #  

Thought they were still talking about table 44.

posted by Linecrosser on May 14, 2013 at 12:46:28 pm     #  

Someone with such great business acumen (like GZ) should know that most businesses rent and not own the space they operate in.

Not only that, even when property and operations have the same owners, many owners typically will have separate legal entities set up solely for the management and maintenance of the property.

I think GZ should keep him mouth shut about unpaid taxes on commercial properties, when he has absolutely ZERO knowledge of how the business/property has been set up to operate. If you want to call out the entity or owner that is listed as the property owner on AREIS, go for it, but without more info you really should leave the businesses that operate on that property out of it.

posted by brainswell on May 14, 2013 at 02:12:26 pm     #   7 people liked this

upso posted at 03:09:42 PM on May 13, 2013:

should be open by summer! i've met the developers and they are really amped to get it rolling

So have they finalized what they're doing? Is it just condos or are they doing the bar/grille again? HOPING the latter - it's where my fiance and I met. :)

posted by endcycle on May 14, 2013 at 03:26:07 pm     #  

Nope, just 5 two story townhouses. (That was the plan when they started anyway, I'd doubt anything has changed)

posted by Johio83 on May 14, 2013 at 03:41:43 pm     #  

condos! 4 or 5 units i believe.

posted by upso on May 14, 2013 at 03:45:33 pm     #  

whoops. Johio beat me to it

posted by upso on May 14, 2013 at 03:45:54 pm     #  

Well, well, well...so even the fabulously profitable Michael's isn't timely or paying their full amount of owed property taxes.

It looks as if there is one other parcel assigned to them. It also appears they haven't paid ANYTHING since 4-23-2008.

Current status for 915 Monroe Street owned by Lagrange Investment Corporation is listed below.

1st Half 2nd Half
Homestead Red. :
Net General : 178.72 357.44
Net Specials : 43.54 87.08
Tax Due : 2,663.69 2,908.18
*Collected : 0.00 0.00 *
Unpaid : 2,663.69 2,908.18

posted by 6th_Floor on May 14, 2013 at 06:35:35 pm     #  

I'm not going to post the address, since those who want to know can easily search areis for the information. However, it looks like this family owns a personal residence in Maumee which is more than 10k behind and paying via a delinquent payment plan.

The actual ownership is confusing since the purchase was from one family member to another. Also, the current owner is a different family member than name provided for the current mailing address.

They do appear to be making an attempt to pay the balance. Regardless, it's another 10k of unpaid county property taxes.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 14, 2013 at 06:51:38 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 03:53:22 PM on May 13, 2013:

Sohio desperately said: "YOU CAN MAKE THE NUMBERS DO OR SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT"

If that was true, then AERIS would show them paid up to date. You can't make external bills just go away, Sohio. For that, you generally need to buy a Congressman.

My personal opinion is that the owners of T44 are gambling that the city or county just won't go after them for the property taxes, due to the downtown development scam being so popular right now. Maybe that's the correct gamble. And maybe it's not. Looking that two of you idiots posting here can't even bring yourselves to admit the emperor is naked, shows that it's a distinct possibility.

You missed my point. As usual.

AREIS can say whatever. A crafty accountant can take any set of numbers and make them say whatever he/she wants them to say. I didn't say you can make external bills go away (aren't most bills 'external?') but even with outstanding debts you can still display a profit. It happens all the time.

And I didn't say anything 'desperately.' But, your excessive and inappropriate use of superfluous adjectives does do an admirable job of masking the lack of substance in your posts. That was a trick I learned when I used to write ad copy...are you an old ad man too?

posted by Sohio on May 14, 2013 at 06:53:09 pm     #  

1st Half 2nd Half
Homestead Red. : 308.40 616.80
Net General : 1,706.28 3,412.56
Net Specials : 16.08 32.16
Tax Due : 11,877.87 12,372.42
Collected : 1,227.81 1,511.82
Unpaid : 10,650.06 10,860.60

Maumee property with unpaid property taxes.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 14, 2013 at 06:53:18 pm     #  

LC: What can they actually do? Take possession of the properties? Put a lien on them?

Yes, in the case of T44 where the owner has completely stopped paying, the city/county should swiftly move to seize the property. They don't have to operate the business, there would be a long line of buyers at a low enough price.

It's likely delinquent property owners would more quickly pay their property taxes if they knew seizure was a swift process.

The Easy Street property racked up nearly 70k of unpaid property taxes before the doors finally closed. And I believe ESC closing had more to do with a bank foreclosure than a city/county seizure.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 14, 2013 at 06:58:06 pm     #  

Brainswell said: I think GZ should keep hi[s] mouth shut about unpaid taxes on commercial properties[.]

I don't see that happening. What I do see happening is failing businesses while you people indulge in doublethink about it.

Michael's and 901 Monroe St are owned by the same family, as far as I can see. So whatever you're blathering about is moot. Michael's is failing, because the same people haven't secured the taxes that cover every square foot under its furniture and equipment, which in a sane society would be at risk. The risk involves the padlock, the movers and the auctioneer.

But they aren't at risk, are they? They're getting this pass from the county government. It's so obvious that I really don't know why they're bothering paying any of those taxes. What are Gerken, Wozniak and Generic Placeholder going to do about it? Nothing, that's what. They have to maintain the illusion that downtown businesses are real by generally accepted accounting principles.

Ultimately the old adage is true: You can't cheat an honest man. There are few honest men in Toledo. Very few. The majority are getting the deceitful government that they deserve. They apparently believe in unfairness and getting something for nothing. I'm sure they hope for such for themselves; their time at the trough, so to speak. So they watch glumly but ever hopefully while the usual suspects gorge themselves.

posted by GuestZero on May 14, 2013 at 08:25:38 pm     #  

Sohio said: I didn't say you can make external bills go away (aren't most bills 'external?') but even with outstanding debts you can still display a profit.

Not under generally accepted accounting principles. Am I using the right language here for you? Would my explanation actually understood if I used French or German for you? Let me know, since English really isn't penetrating you.

posted by GuestZero on May 14, 2013 at 08:29:00 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/Arts/2013/05/19/20-North-Gallery-closes-Toledo.html

20 N. St. Clair goes dark...more to follow. Oh my, how will Toledo survive with another closed downtown business?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 04:56:13 pm     #  

Another hit for WHD enthusiasts.

20 North Gallery is now the third business on St. Clair that has bit the dust this year along 2 blocks of "prime" WHD real estate.

Spin away folks, but the truth is getting more difficult to suppress.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 05:16:07 pm     #  

You really shouldn't appear so gleeful that business's are closing downtown.

posted by Linecrosser on May 19, 2013 at 05:26:45 pm     #  

LC, I realize it rubs people the wrong way here but shit happens.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 05:32:37 pm     #   1 person liked this

Yea. And 24 months? Lame bet. Say three months and you're a little more ballsy.

! posted by slowsol on May 04, 2013 at 02:07:36 pm # +

You were correct. 18-24 months was far too much rope for the idiots at Fort on the River. Two different downtown-based friends have told me that The Fort on the River or whatever it's called already has closed or is at "Any day now status."

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 05:37:36 pm     #  

1. You're a dick.

2. After reading the article they are closing down to pursue other things. Not because they are being sucked into the death spiral you so thoroughly root for the WHD to be in.

3. You're a dick.

posted by hunkytownsausage on May 19, 2013 at 05:50:58 pm     #   9 people liked this

Hunky, I'm flattered to be the first person to "like" the moronic post you made above.

I couldn't care less what you think about me, and regardless, there are two more empty spaces in your WHD utopia.

What exactly did you expect them to say about their closing? That after 20 years they realized what they dreamed never quite materialized as they expected?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 06:01:31 pm     #  

Make sure to park across the street from Fort on the River tomorrow. If they get creeped out just tell them you're doing a statistical analysis of their business from out front. Report back to us with your findings.

posted by hunkytownsausage on May 19, 2013 at 06:06:32 pm     #   4 people liked this

I don't believe "they" will be around to notice. I believe their bags already have been packed and given their exit interviews.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 06:09:49 pm     #   1 person liked this

Oh, ok. So when's the party?

posted by hunkytownsausage on May 19, 2013 at 06:15:21 pm     #  

Hunky, I see in the article they mention "pursuing other interests" without including mention of what, when, or where.

I suppose it could be top-secret ideas he has...such as the foolishness he envisioned happening in WHD 20 years ago.

Again, the truth is becoming more difficult to suppress.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 06:20:10 pm     #  

You seem like a good time.

posted by hunkytownsausage on May 19, 2013 at 06:20:47 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 06:20:10 PM on May 19, 2013:

Hunky, I see in the article they mention "pursuing other interests" without including mention of what, when, or where.

I suppose it could be top-secret ideas he has...such as the foolishness he envisioned happening in WHD 20 years ago.

Again, the truth is becoming more difficult to suppress.

it's like you're not even reading what you're linking.

*Once it is over, Hillenbrand said he will look forward to taking his first vacation in eight years, and investing more of his time in his other artistic passions, including theater. He also will begin looking for a new tenant for the 18 N. St. Clair St. space.

Croninger said she will spend the summer archiving 20 North’s records, which will be offered for donation to the Toledo Museum of Art or the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library, and then focus her attention on her interest in promoting visual literacy and her work with the Toledo Ballet.

“There’s so much more we look forward to doing, artistically and otherwise,” Hillenbrand said.

“There’s going to be that day after where we breathe that sigh of relief and then just say, ‘What next,’ with an exclamation point and not a question mark. That’s a nice way of looking at it.”*

this isn't a restaurant closing due to lack of business. this is a fucking art gallery that lasted 20 fucking years in a city that doesn't buy a lot of art. 20 years is a long time in a city like toledo. and its not like they've boarded the windows and walked away from their obligations.

they are bowing out gracefully and moving on. not in business... in life. running a gallery in a rustbelt city takes a lot of bravery and they've done it over 1/2 my life. i'm impressed.

posted by upso on May 19, 2013 at 08:56:05 pm     #   10 people liked this

The grace of the leaving is irrelevant, Upso. What matter is the leaving itself.

Your rant shows (or betrays) that you know what's going on around here. Toledo's rust is a symbol of decay, complacency and doing less with less. Running an art gallery around here is simply an act of ego, fueled by excessive cash. Cash runs out, for obvious reasons. And so it has.

In a vibrant economy, these things just never come up. But we don't have that. That was always my point. And following logically from the point, there are a host of other things that a lack of a vibrant economy says concretely that you must not do. You must not rebuild a dead downtown. You must not emphasize economic development. You must not use the government to invoke massive property unfairness. Yadda yadda... for all the stuff I've said here for a decade. It's all in the archives.

posted by GuestZero on May 19, 2013 at 09:42:31 pm     #   2 people liked this

upso posted at 08:56:05 PM on May 19, 2013:
6th_Floor posted at 06:20:10 PM on May 19, 2013:

Hunky, I see in the article they mention "pursuing other interests" without including mention of what, when, or where.

I suppose it could be top-secret ideas he has...such as the foolishness he envisioned happening in WHD 20 years ago.

Again, the truth is becoming more difficult to suppress.

it's like you're not even reading what you're linking.

*Once it is over, Hillenbrand said he will look forward to taking his first vacation in eight years, and investing more of his time in his other artistic passions, including theater. He also will begin looking for a new tenant for the 18 N. St. Clair St. space.

Croninger said she will spend the summer archiving 20 North’s records, which will be offered for donation to the Toledo Museum of Art or the Toledo-Lucas County Public Library, and then focus her attention on her interest in promoting visual literacy and her work with the Toledo Ballet.

“There’s so much more we look forward to doing, artistically and otherwise,” Hillenbrand said.

“There’s going to be that day after where we breathe that sigh of relief and then just say, ‘What next,’ with an exclamation point and not a question mark. That’s a nice way of looking at it.”*

this isn't a restaurant closing due to lack of business. this is a fucking art gallery that lasted 20 fucking years in a city that doesn't buy a lot of art. 20 years is a long time in a city like toledo. and its not like they've boarded the windows and walked away from their obligations.

they are bowing out gracefully and moving on. not in business... in life. running a gallery in a rustbelt city takes a lot of bravery and they've done it over 1/2 my life. i'm impressed.

Upso, I'll hold 6th_Bore's arms while you beat the shit out of him, how's that?

posted by anonymouscoward on May 19, 2013 at 09:44:52 pm     #  

AC, trust me if I didn't want the law involved, I'd enjoy the opportunity to respond to any attempt at you harming me. :)

I know it's difficult for you, but please somewhat remain on topic here. There are a couple political forums here at TT for your trolling and other childish behavior.

Upso, why it's closing isn't relevant. What is easily concluded from the article is more empty commercial space. Nothing more, nothing less. I fully expect most people (especially fools who have believed the WHD fairy tale for 20 years) to avoid using "business was lousy" among their reasons for closing the gallery.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 10:00:58 pm     #   2 people liked this

6th_Floor posted at 10:00:58 PM on May 19, 2013:

AC, trust me if I didn't want the law involved, I'd enjoy the opportunity to respond to any attempt at you harming me. :)

I know it's difficult for you, but please somewhat remain on topic here. There are a couple political forums here at TT for your trolling and other childish behavior.

Upso, why it's closing isn't relevant. What is easily concluded from the article is more empty commercial space. Nothing more, nothing less. I fully expect most people (especially fools who have believed the WHD fairy tale for 20 years) to avoid using "business was lousy" among their reasons for closing the gallery.

6th_bore, you are just being a colossal asshole here, out to cheerlead and party at anything that closes downtown, even if it closes on its own terms after a good run. That's pretty fucking disgusting and low. Upso is a business owner and knows a lot of the business owners and frankly for him to drop an f-bomb in here at your comments and behavior is a sign that he's pretty upset. Dude's got a vested stake and what you're out to do apparently is whip your tiny dick out and piss all over downtown and drop burning deuces just so you can be right about Toledo... while you're supposed to be one of those "I love small business" conservative/Republican types. Seriously, what happened, was there some candy store downtown that shortchanged you when you were a kid 60 years ago?

posted by anonymouscoward on May 19, 2013 at 10:15:55 pm     #   7 people liked this

AC, you have been a troll here since day 1, but I'll waste more of my time replying to you. Is Upso the big-bad wolf of Toledo Talk now? He is a poster here nothing more or less to me. Him using the F word doesn't make any difference to the fact that two more downtown businesses have closed.

Since our taxes have helped pay for many of this downtown/WHD bullshit to be created, and even more taxes are being wasted via subsidizing obvious money-losing ventures, every resident in the county has a "vested stake" what happens downtown.

Moving along, Upso you may want to pass along a reminder to Mr. Hillenbrand to pay his owed property taxes. It seems he hasn't made a payment for 18 N. St Clair since Jan 31, 2012.

I won't post his personal address here, but he's also approximately 3k behind at his personal residence in Old Orchard to be placed on the county's DELINQUENT PAYMENT PLAN. It seems Mr. Hillenbrand is sort of a double-dipping property tax deadbeat.

So, before Mr. Hillenbrand moves along for his "First vacation in 8 years" and pursues "other artistic interests" he should pay his owed property taxes at the "little glowing oasis" and his personal residence.

Toledo has plenty of potholes to repair. That's more important than any art gallery in a deadzone.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 10:53:57 pm     #   2 people liked this

Apparently not paying your property taxes is all part of this new Toledo paradigm of business success. I'll have to make a note of that, along with: closing for entire seasons; reducing hours of operation during the week; not having customers in the store; taking customers away from other businesses while calling it "synergy"; etc. LOL!

posted by GuestZero on May 19, 2013 at 11:11:48 pm     #  

How about a new wealth-producing business actually opening downtown? Anyone?

No grocery store rumors please...I'm talking about real jobs.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 11:13:21 pm     #  

Anyway, it sure seems strange that The Blade devoted so many words on the closing and the gallery itself, yet in all that verbiage there wasn't any mention of it being in arrears on the property taxes. I'll have to look again, and if I'm right, I'll then give the reporter a phone call and ask politely why such a salient fact didn't make it to print.

posted by GuestZero on May 19, 2013 at 11:16:24 pm     #  

Virtual Technologies Group - 19 N. Erie St. will be leaving Toledo very soon. The city of Maumee awarded them a $40,000 grant, so they will move to Arrowhead Park. They also own an office furniture store next door to 19 N. Erie, but I'm not sure if that's going to Maumee as well. That's about 20 employees that will take their lunch money to Maumee eateries.

posted by odnation on May 19, 2013 at 11:16:56 pm     #   1 person liked this

6th, an art gallery lasted 20 years. What's your barometer of success for an art gallery? At what point, in your book, can they finally say "we did it, we succeeded!" Seriously, when they opened, Kurt Cobain still had half his hits to record... a LOT has happened since then.

posted by Johio83 on May 19, 2013 at 11:37:16 pm     #   1 person liked this

Quite a bit of new downtown dust biting material for this thread to absorb in a single day.

- An art gallery owned by a tax deadbeat.

- A bar that was open less than 2 months.

- A tech company with a couple dozen employees moving to the suburbs.

http://maumee.toledonewsnow.com/news/business/150001-toledo-business-moving-maumee

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 11:39:15 pm     #  

Johio said: a LOT has happened since then

Yes, a lot of economic collapse for the Toledo area. You're absolutely right about that.

I'd say that since ART hasn't gone out of fashion, the mark of success of an art gallery is twofold:

1. It continues to exist while its proponents are obviously healthy and active in the game.

2. It pays its bills. You know, like property taxes.

Looks like this particular gallery failed on these two basic metrics.

posted by GuestZero on May 19, 2013 at 11:41:52 pm     #  

Johio, I'm still trying to determine if it was a "fucking art gallery" or just an art gallery.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 19, 2013 at 11:42:04 pm     #   1 person liked this

I'm starting to think that the only difference between 6th_Bore and Heath Ledger's Joker at this point is the scope of what they want to see burn... downtown Toledo vs. the world. And maybe the quality of the make-up job.

posted by anonymouscoward on May 20, 2013 at 12:03:22 am     #   1 person liked this

Must admit I never read this thread. But it amazes me how it never goes away :) Some night when I feel like reading a novella, I'll brew a nice pot of coffee and start from post 1 till I finish or have to sleep.

posted by INeedCoffee on May 20, 2013 at 12:55:37 am     #  

I am quite familiar with 20 North and its history.

Eric Hillenbrand and his partner Jim Zaleski were fix'er upper guys in the early 90's. They bought the 20 North location for pennies. Took two years to get the thing up and safe for habitation. Major renovations. It was a dump.

Eric had a very, very serious drinking problem that led to DUI convictions. His driving license was revoked in the mid 90's. His elderly mom would drive him around to social events.

Eric was always impeccably dressed and presented himself as a bit of a Gatsby like character around town. If you were "in the scene" 1994-2001 you would find the drunken Eric at his art openings and other social events.

Jim and Eric continued to do repair jobs by day well into the late 90's. Unfortunately both were in serious financial trouble by 1999 and Eric consumption issues caused the relationship to fray. Jim and Eric would split early in the new century and Jim got a money guy to back the creation of Diva. Diva was Jim's dream of an upscale, big city experience in Toledo. He held several art events using Leslie Adams connections within the art community.

Divas eventually failed. Not sure what happen to Jim since then.

20 North was never profitable (AFAIK) and was used by Eric as a way to stay relevant within the Toledo social scene.

The vacation quote by Eric is hilarious. Everyday is vacation day for Eric.

posted by Star56 on May 20, 2013 at 02:08:25 am     #  

read this in the blade yesterday: http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2013/05/19/Marketing-ad-firm-traces-growth-in-downtown-Toledo.html

how on earth can a business be growing in downtown? this makes no sense

posted by nits on May 20, 2013 at 08:33:50 am     #   5 people liked this

Here are pictures that I took of the Fort Bar and Grill ("Fort on the River") on Sunday, May 19th, 2013:

http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/ToledoTroublemaker/library/

Bar signs are still in the side windows of the Water Street floor level. I'd have to say that the inside looks beautiful, as much of Fort Industry Square is. The Superior Street inner double doors themselves are works of art.

But inside all you can really see are stools and tables, nothing else. These twits really collapsed in 6 weeks? That's got to be a new record for that sort of investment.

Naturally, during this sojourn, I was accosted by a bicycling bum who wanted money. Naturally, I refused; insofar as I have volition in this, I don't support the drugs and alcohol trades, since that's largely where your money goes when you give it to bums on the street.

posted by GuestZero on May 20, 2013 at 10:45:24 am     #  

Yesterday was a beautiful day. I went out for a great breakfast, did some socializing with friends, spent some time on some hobbies, did a little work on the yard, and ended it by grilling up a few burgers.

GZ went and took pictures of a business that recently closed so he could post them on the internet to try to justify his fractured worldview. The problems are in your head dude, please seek help before we hear about you on the news.

posted by brainswell on May 20, 2013 at 11:32:08 am     #   11 people liked this

No, Brainswell (good name, BTW). I stopped by some hyped yet failed outlet on the way home, enjoying the fresh air, as I collected data on our continued economic failures. Economic development is a scam. And I'm going to keep rubbing your noses in it. Bad dog!

Do you seriously think that you can get away with demonizing the collection of data and seeking of personal education? Sad. Truly sad. Your brain must be swelling indeed, which is a serious medical condition.

I leave you currently with the knowledge that I hope you enjoyed your grilled burgers for now, since the City of Toledo is going to come after your little white picket fence for more property taxes to support the economic development scam. Your lifestyle is an endangered species.

posted by GuestZero on May 20, 2013 at 12:23:52 pm     #  

brainswell posted at 11:32:08 AM on May 20, 2013:

Yesterday was a beautiful day. I went out for a great breakfast, did some socializing with friends, spent some time on some hobbies, did a little work on the yard, and ended it by grilling up a few burgers.

GZ went and took pictures of a business that recently closed so he could post them on the internet to try to justify his fractured worldview. The problems are in your head dude, please seek help before we hear about you on the news.

Lots of small businesses, and in particular family-run restaurants, fail, because the people who dreamed of owning and running such simply don't have a grasp of business and finance. That's perfectly natural. That, however, is NOT an indicator that an area (downtown) is unworkable for business. If some restaurants in the Secor destruction zone shut their doors right now, does that mean the area sucks and is economically un-viable? Does it mean those owners suck at running their restaurants?

posted by anonymouscoward on May 20, 2013 at 12:34:25 pm     #   1 person liked this

Or maybe they don't see surviving the upcoming construction that is going to tear that place apart.

posted by Linecrosser on May 20, 2013 at 12:39:25 pm     #  

Guest Zero:

posted by toledolen_ on May 20, 2013 at 12:58:52 pm     #   8 people liked this

GZ - Why do you assume I support the "economic development scam" merely because I disagree with the way that you assess success and failure? You don't know how I voted last year.

Please remind me how the Fort Bar and Grill is connected with your so called "economic development scam." I do not recall hearing any involvement of the city with the business. Do you have information that we should be aware of?

posted by brainswell on May 20, 2013 at 02:21:21 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 06:01:31 PM on May 19, 2013:

Hunky, I'm flattered to be the first person to "like" the moronic post you made above.

I couldn't care less what you think about me, and regardless, there are two more empty spaces in your WHD utopia.

What exactly did you expect them to say about their closing? That after 20 years they realized what they dreamed never quite materialized as they expected?

From The Blade, 5/18/2013: 'Little glowing oasis' to go dark; 20 North Gallery closes Friday

From the article: Twenty years ago he [Eric Hillenbrand ] bought a building at 20 North St. Clair St. in an area that was bereft of energy and people.

On December 30, 1992 Eric put $30,000 on the Come Line and rolled the bones.

On February 13, 2004 Eric decided to pass the dice and cash it all in. He walked away with $425,000 in his kick, and that's just the real estate.

The data comes from the Areis online site.

posted by madjack on May 20, 2013 at 02:52:15 pm     #  

I didn't see what you are looking at Jack, but I do know that the 2004 period was the time that Hillenbrand/Zaleski was dissolving. That put an extra pinch on both partners.

Knowing Eric and Jim, and knowing their finances and investments since the 90s, I honestly don't think that Eric put $425,000 in his pocket over this at any point.

posted by justread on May 20, 2013 at 03:05:11 pm     #  

Knowing Eric and Jim, and knowing their finances and investments since the 90s, I honestly don't think that Eric put $425,000 in his pocket over this at any point.

I was looking at real estate transfers.

No, he wouldn't have stuffed $400 grand in his pocket, but with that kind of money floating around he'd have made something.

posted by madjack on May 20, 2013 at 03:22:49 pm     #  

As a creditor at the time, I would guess it was on paper if profit existed. Great guys, don't get me wrong.

But they were really extended. Especially after they took on the Secor Bldg and Diva.

I'll stop there. :)

Like I said, great guys.

posted by justread on May 20, 2013 at 03:51:08 pm     #  

toledolen_ posted at 12:58:52 PM on May 20, 2013:

Guest Zero:

More like:

posted by Sohio on May 20, 2013 at 04:14:23 pm     #   2 people liked this

GuestZero posted at 10:45:24 AM on May 20, 2013:

Here are pictures that I took of the Fort Bar and Grill ("Fort on the River") on Sunday, May 19th, 2013:

http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/ToledoTroublemaker/library/

Bar signs are still in the side windows of the Water Street floor level. I'd have to say that the inside looks beautiful, as much of Fort Industry Square is. The Superior Street inner double doors themselves are works of art.

But inside all you can really see are stools and tables, nothing else. These twits really collapsed in 6 weeks? That's got to be a new record for that sort of investment.

Naturally, during this sojourn, I was accosted by a bicycling bum who wanted money. Naturally, I refused; insofar as I have volition in this, I don't support the drugs and alcohol trades, since that's largely where your money goes when you give it to bums on the street.

OK. That's only because the Bombay Bicycle Club closed years ago.

posted by justread on May 20, 2013 at 04:41:03 pm     #  

Sohio posted at 04:14:23 PM on May 20, 2013:
toledolen_ posted at 12:58:52 PM on May 20, 2013:

Guest Zero:

More like:

Did you see the van he was riding in?

posted by anonymouscoward on May 20, 2013 at 04:50:33 pm     #   1 person liked this

I don't think that you should keep giving him rides, AC.
Let him walk.

posted by justread on May 20, 2013 at 05:00:48 pm     #   2 people liked this

justread posted at 05:00:48 PM on May 20, 2013:

I don't think that you should keep giving him rides, AC.
Let him walk.

It's not my van and I wouldn't give any of you creeps a ride anyhow.

posted by anonymouscoward on May 20, 2013 at 05:27:21 pm     #  

anonymouscoward posted at 05:27:21 PM on May 20, 2013:
justread posted at 05:00:48 PM on May 20, 2013:

I don't think that you should keep giving him rides, AC.
Let him walk.

It's not my van and I wouldn't give any of you creeps a ride anyhow.

It is your van, and I'd walk before I'd ride in that rolling safety violation you've been seen in all over town.

posted by madjack on May 20, 2013 at 05:56:42 pm     #  

madjack posted at 05:56:42 PM on May 20, 2013:
anonymouscoward posted at 05:27:21 PM on May 20, 2013:
justread posted at 05:00:48 PM on May 20, 2013:

I don't think that you should keep giving him rides, AC.
Let him walk.

It's not my van and I wouldn't give any of you creeps a ride anyhow.

It is your van, and I'd walk before I'd ride in that rolling safety violation you've been seen in all over town.

Not my van, I already have a fine vehicle by an American automaker that is well-maintained. Besides, you can't walk anywhere, maddie, because you'd get cited for public intoxication, day or night.

posted by anonymouscoward on May 20, 2013 at 07:35:37 pm     #  

"I already have a fine vehicle by an American automaker that is well-maintained."

I'm also a fan of the Honda Accord.

posted by jr on May 20, 2013 at 07:48:03 pm     #   3 people liked this

AC tittered: That, however, is NOT an indicator that an area (downtown) is unworkable for business.

No AC, what does indicate an area that's unworkable for business is an area plagued by empty buildings. When I stood in the large green space by the now defunct Fort-by-the-River bar, I was within spittin' distance of:

1. A totally empty skyscraper (the Hytower).
2. A line of boarded up retail locations lining the parking garage attached to the empty skyscraper.
3. A totally empty hotel (Hotel Seagate).
4. A totally empty ex-steam plant.

And oh heck, let's add:

5. A mostly empty Fort Not-So-Industry Square.

Get it yet, AC? Stand in that area and you're surrounded by towering abandonments. You're all too close to the matter. You've seen Toledo getting more and more boarded up, and it seems normal to you. But it's devastating. And we've nowhere near taken the suitable radical measures to adapt to it (for instance, we still have this ruinously expensive Liberal-Union government).

posted by GuestZero on May 20, 2013 at 10:46:02 pm     #  

Brainswell said: Do you have information that we should be aware of?

Yes, and I keep telling it to you, but you keep rejecting it: White people and their money, are leaving Toledo. Therefore, if you want a new business to be a success (as Costco knows well), you either have to open your business where the Whites and the money have gone, or you need succulent access to the big juicy government tit. In the former situation, that means you open your business in Maumee, Perrysburg, Sylvania, Bedford, etc. In the latter case, you open your so-called business in a building without any property taxes (aka the Warehouse District or Fart Industry Square), even one that's perennially behind on taxes (aka the new paradigm).

This isn't even opinion. It's demographics. It's documented fact. I either say it or imply it over and over and over, and yet, you people continue to pretend that I didn't say anything.

posted by GuestZero on May 20, 2013 at 10:59:42 pm     #  

yawn thanks for the reminder that you're a racist GZ :/

posted by upso on May 20, 2013 at 11:15:57 pm     #   8 people liked this

Madjack: _On December 30, 1992 Eric put $30,000 on the Come Line and rolled the bones. On February 13, 2004 Eric decided to pass the dice and cash it all in. He walked away with $425,000 in his kick, and that's just the real estate.

The data comes from the Areis online site._

Also from the AREIS site is information that bones roller Eric nowadays owes more than 5k of unpaid property taxes.

It may be time for him to head to the casino, put whatever he has left in his pockets and attempt to convert a 4th & 29 his own 20 yard line.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 20, 2013 at 11:25:18 pm     #  

From 6th_Floor: Also from the AREIS site is information that bones roller Eric nowadays owes more than 5k of unpaid property taxes.

Which he may well owe, or not as the case may be. As screwed up as the local IRS is I think there's every chance in the world he doesn't owe a dime.

Regardless of that, how many times are you going to scrounge up a lousy five grand to get a return of a couple hundred thou? For that kind of bread I'd max out every credit card I could get my hands on! Shoot, I'd even max out AC's credit card for that kind of dinero.

JustRead may know something about the situation that I don't or that isn't common knowledge, but it's been my own experience that when large amounts of long green start floating around some of it's going to stick to the owner's pocket. The inside of the pocket.

posted by madjack on May 21, 2013 at 08:26:42 am     #  

Not really Jack. Just that they were reinvesting pretty heavily, with great intentions, but got in kind of deep with a couple of investments that required massive influxes of cash.

One of those investments was the incubator for the Toledo School of the Arts, the Secor Building. The other was an incubator for the growth of the talents of wonderful local chef Erika Rapp, Diva Restaurant.

Both were very cash hungry investments, but provided work for some folks for a while, and were positive attributes for the community. During that time period, I was a tenant, a vendor, a creditor, a customer and a friend. I liked those guys a lot. They both had a vision of what Toledo could be, based on what they saw on their travels and their love of Toledo, art, food, and culture.

I would think that they did ok on the One South St. Clair sale following the ballpark construction, but again... I don't see profits being taken in any substantial way based on the activity that I was seeing in other properties.
Who knows.

posted by justread on May 21, 2013 at 09:43:57 am     #   1 person liked this

I don't know what it is about the negative nancies in this town but it has one of the worst inferiority complexes of a midsized city that I've ever seen. Just because some businesses fail in downtown and the warehouse district does not automatically mean that downtown and the warehouse district are unviable.

The art galleries are too far ahead of their time, the loft residences needed to have come first, along with other more practical retail outlets (such as small clothing stores, a barber and a grocery retailer) to be viable. They are like jewellery stores, you go in and buy one expensive item rahter than multiple cheaper items, and they thusly don't need to sell as much tos tay afloat. But an art gallery in the warehouse district is exactly what other cities who have developed warehouse districts sucessfully have several examples of.

Economic redevelopment takes time. You white, racist, middle-aged cynical men who creep around downtown every day leering through the windows of local businesses at random off-peak times counting empty seats so you can cheerlead the failure of everything in the city in favor of building up the suburbs and the mall lifestyle which is already failed and has left countless exurban strips a desolate wasteland of parking lots and empty box stores that hav very little use outside their intended design. It's crazy. You people are crazy, and bitter that your flavor of crazy is such a dripping failure.

You white, middle-aged bitter men are without a doubt a part of the worst. Generation. In Toledo. Your ideas ran the city into the ground 40 years ago with the "build out to the suburbs concept and let downtown areas rot" (the whole country did this, and your generation was behind the wheel for the whole ride) and now you're sitting here bitterly pooping out mountains of crap with nothing positive whatsoever to say. You only offer problems and you have (GZ, and 6th_floor) repeatedly stated that there are no solutions and you both want downtown razed to the ground. Or words to that effect.

Quit being such damn pessimists and maybe other peoples self-esteem can improve a bit and maybe we can all get on with it, but your attitude is so defeatist and that is so "rust-belt working class."

I am white, young and starting a business in the north end. I moved from several states away and felt that Toledo offered opportunities that my former desert home would not. I'm not going to give too many details here simply because we are not open yet and I don't want any of the trolls on this board to come creeping past our place and shooting a bunch of negativity our way. I'd prefer it if we could make our investment into the downtown area in peace, and I certainly wish to be the only one taking pictures of our place during the build-out phase which we are in the middle of. I can assure you trolls, though I acknowledge that I don't have to prove myself to you or anyone who doesn't have any real authority over me, that our business is not, as you like to say, a hobby business, and it represents our sole source of income so if the business fails we will be hurting.

GZ and 6th_Floor and there's one or two other negative creep Toledo trolls here, nobody but you cares about what you have to say that's why your sad lives consist of nothing but creeping around downtown with a camera posting up negative crap on the itnernet.. You're the old guard of Toledo and you have left a huge mess for us young folks to clean up. Shut up and get out of our way so we can clean up the messes that your generation has left behind.

Toledo is an awesome city and there is tremendous potential in the downtown area and the Warehouse District is a good step in a revitalized direction. I live near Vistula and I love my neighborhood, I love our location, and I love the architecture throughout the city. You people are so bitter that all you see is ugly. You keep telling people to open their eyes to how ugly Toledo really is, but then point out the artistry on a carved entry door to a historic commercial property? Toledo is beautiful and deserve to be restored to its former glory. Stop trying to kill every attempt at bringing the city back to life.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 21, 2013 at 10:02:57 am     #   14 people liked this

hey dude,

Can you get financed? I have a property to sell in an area that requires the touch of a young visionary such as yourself.

posted by justread on May 21, 2013 at 10:08:45 am     #   1 person liked this

UPSO said: thanks for the reminder that you're a racist

There's a profound difference between recognizing racial realities and advocating them. The exact difference exists between watching and cheering, or observing and hoping.

Demographics and crime statistics and welfare statistics aren't racist. It's high time you Liberals stopped lying to yourselves. :^)

posted by GuestZero on May 21, 2013 at 11:08:20 am     #   1 person liked this

most epic first post award goes to ONEVillageIsAwesome

posted by upso on May 21, 2013 at 11:13:32 am     #   2 people liked this

ONE idiot said: You're the old guard of Toledo and you have left a huge mess for us young folks to clean up.

Hardly. I'm Gen-X. The old guard of Toledo is the Boomer generation, swaddled in their unions and government jobs and old professional positions whose bosses are counting down the days when they can de-budget their positions.

ONE idiot continued: Shut up and get out of our way so we can clean up the messes that your generation has left behind.

I don't see the "shutting up" thing happening. And how am I in your way? Outline PRECISELY how I'm inhibiting you from using your own skills and your own capital to achieve sustainable goals. Let's get details, if you've the minerals for it (which is doubtful, you being so full of sound and fury).

posted by GuestZero on May 21, 2013 at 11:14:54 am     #  

ONE idiot blotted: Just because some businesses fail in downtown and the warehouse district does not automatically mean that downtown and the warehouse district are unviable.

My sampling of empty properties (using details that you're apparently allergic to) shows the current reality agrees with me about unviability. There's a lot of empty, crumbling buildings in the downtown. I could take you by your hand (since you're not old enough to cross streets on your own) and show you a building in the downtown that has a 6-8 foot tree growing out of the side of the bricks on its top story. Once you get over the dazzle of paint, you see the crumbling beneath. I've much admired (during my alleged creepy stalking activities) the paint slopped over the rotting metal facades on Steingraber's beloved (and now defunct) craft shop on S St Clair St.

Walk the downtown with an engineer's eye, then return to this forum and tell us what honesty and education tell you. There's only one conclusion: It's decaying and public subsidy is only heavily distorting that collapse.

posted by GuestZero on May 21, 2013 at 11:24:44 am     #  

Do certain people on this thread have jobs ??? That's a lot of typing, time and effort to keep repeating yourself.

posted by Hoops on May 21, 2013 at 11:25:01 am     #   3 people liked this

I was thinking the same thing Hoops.

After reading the same opinion regurgitated over and over in every thread countless times, whether or not its even on topic, I've started looking at the poster before the post to see if it's even worth reading.

jr, can we get a "hide" function like Facebook?

posted by idinspired on May 21, 2013 at 11:36:35 am     #   6 people liked this

An "ignore user" option would be AWESOME.

On topic: ONEVillage - I work downtown, and I'd love to see what you're doing here sometime. Let me know if you'd like to grab lunch sometime. Always interested in meeting new people who are into the city.

posted by endcycle on May 21, 2013 at 11:52:02 am     #   1 person liked this

"jr, can we get a "hide" function like Facebook?"

I'm Facebook illiterate, so I don't know what the "hide" function does. Is it the same thing as the "ignore user" option mentioned by endcycle?

posted by jr on May 21, 2013 at 12:37:53 pm     #  

Yes. I understand that a forum like this isn't set up for that - just wishful thinking on my part.

posted by idinspired on May 21, 2013 at 12:54:11 pm     #  

jr posted at 12:37:53 PM on May 21, 2013:

"jr, can we get a "hide" function like Facebook?"

I'm Facebook illiterate, so I don't know what the "hide" function does. Is it the same thing as the "ignore user" option mentioned by endcycle?

yeah, essentially that exact thing.

posted by endcycle on May 21, 2013 at 01:58:49 pm     #  

So anyways, I noticed on my way to the farmers market this weekend a building on south Huron near those new apartments (swan creek?) that has had substantial work done and is a major, at least street level improvement. Not sure what it is, looks residential but unsure. Any idea upso? Your neck of the woods.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on May 21, 2013 at 02:42:47 pm     #  

I've seen that work and was curious too, Nolan. It looks like a loft apartment with retail at ground level to me.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 21, 2013 at 03:30:49 pm     #  

endcycle posted at 01:58:49 PM on May 21, 2013:
jr posted at 12:37:53 PM on May 21, 2013:

"jr, can we get a "hide" function like Facebook?"

I'm Facebook illiterate, so I don't know what the "hide" function does. Is it the same thing as the "ignore user" option mentioned by endcycle?

yeah, essentially that exact thing.

So you would just ignore him, if what he says is true your ignoring truth. Isn't that just going to bite you in the end? reminds me of the commercial where the guy is on fire and his coworker points it out to him but the guy just ignores him and continues on with his work. I'm not saying that the negativity and the in your face way that 6th points it out or the consistent stabs about it with madjack aren't annoying, but to just ignore it kinda seems silly. To those making what they are doing by observing the business's downtown is somehow creepy or against the law, you again are vilifying what they are doing instead of listening to what they are saying. You don't like what they are reporting so you beat up on them for reporting it?

posted by Linecrosser on May 21, 2013 at 03:37:21 pm     #  

So, I've been talking to the president of the Phoenix Earth Foods Co-op (who is a friend of mine) and moving to the downtown area is something that they are apparently seriously considering right now and are putting out feelers for fundraisers to raise the capital needed to move.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 21, 2013 at 04:06:11 pm     #  

ONEVillageIsAwesome posted at 03:30:49 PM on May 21, 2013:

I've seen that work and was curious too, Nolan. It looks like a loft apartment with retail at ground level to me.

It just seemed so big though. Would love to see inside. They even put down some turf out front

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on May 21, 2013 at 04:10:22 pm     #  

"So, I've been talking to the president of the Phoenix Earth Foods Co-op (who is a friend of mine) and moving to the downtown area is something that they are apparently seriously considering right now and are putting out feelers for fundraisers to raise the capital needed to move."

That's interesting......there is no doubt they need to get out of their current location.

posted by Foodie on May 21, 2013 at 04:31:40 pm     #  

ONEVillageIsAwesome posted at 04:06:11 PM on May 21, 2013:

So, I've been talking to the president of the Phoenix Earth Foods Co-op (who is a friend of mine) and moving to the downtown area is something that they are apparently seriously considering right now and are putting out feelers for fundraisers to raise the capital needed to move.

Any idea what kind of space they'd be after? I know nothing about them, not sure if we're talking about a 5,000sf office/storefront, or a 20,000sf warehousing space, or what.

posted by Johio83 on May 21, 2013 at 05:15:14 pm     #  

glad to hear they are considering a move. they'll need to find a building with reasonable parking if possible.

as for the building on huron in question... any idea what address we're talking about? i don't want to speak about the wrong space.

posted by upso on May 21, 2013 at 05:43:03 pm     #  

Yeah, they need a space that is the same size or larger than what they have now. They need at least 2 dozen parking spaces. They need the space to be up to or close to code for a grocery store.

Their current location is only slightly larger than a big carryout and they only have 2 real rows of short aisles and the parking leaves a bit to be desired as far as ease of accessibility.

I've already suggested the ESM, as have several other people and it is one of the locations they may be considering.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 21, 2013 at 05:44:00 pm     #  

The old Al Peake on Huron could be a good candidate.

posted by Johio83 on May 21, 2013 at 05:51:28 pm     #  

I think the Erie Street Market would be a fantastic location because of it's proximity to the Farmer's Market which is expanding each year. It also has great parking and is walking distance from the Warehouse District and only a short drive from the OWE and ONE Village which encompasses quite a bit of their existing customer base.

By them getting closer to downtown, they can also get in more foot traffic from downtown residents without transportation. Sean, the president of Phoenix, was saying that he would like to see the co-op more viably located to poorer people in the downtown area who didn't have access to whole, healthy foods.

Goodness knows that Seaway doesn't really have much in the range of whole, healthy foods and their prices on generic brands is the same or higher than the prices on name brands at other stores.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 21, 2013 at 05:54:05 pm     #  

Endcycle - I'd love to get together. I'm usually free during the middle of the week early in the month. Our mid-months get busy because we are doing limited service in the form of formal events on a monthly basis to help restore our historical property to its former glory and raise capital.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 21, 2013 at 06:26:02 pm     #  

OVA,

Welcome to TT. I do have a few questions for you since you've taken so much time to attack me. Of course I enjoy reading the piss and vinegar from a different source, tho.

A few things about me. What happened here beyond 20 or more years ago wouldn't have nary a trace of my adult footprints. I live in Toledo...and yes technically in the inner-city, so I do have plenty of experience. Certainly more than some punk talking smack fresh off the bus.

How long have you been in Toledo? Where did you live before moving here?

Also, since you won't mention it now, will you at least mention your business location and name after it's open?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 21, 2013 at 06:54:21 pm     #  

LC: So you would just ignore him, if what he says is true your ignoring truth.

LC, the last thing these downtown homers want is the truth. That's exactly what fuels my desire to observe their failures. They say they are going to ignore certain people, but yet they are repeatedly returning to this same thread.

Now we have some new piss & vinegar-filled, young punk in here talking trash about Vistula...the very same neighborhood which received much attention prior to downtown & WHD becoming the focus. Of course the young punk gets a pass for not knowing that, since he hasn't been in Toledo and/or alive long enough to know.

Not so long ago, Summit Street from Cherry heading east toward the 280 bridge was lined with bars, restaurants, and various other businesses. Now, because there are so many dollars to spend, downtown has improved and Vistula looks like somebody dropped a bomb on it. I would bet there is more vacant square footage than occupied along that stretch of Summit.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 21, 2013 at 07:05:17 pm     #  

upso posted at 05:43:03 PM on May 21, 2013:

glad to hear they are considering a move. they'll need to find a building with reasonable parking if possible.

as for the building on huron in question... any idea what address we're talking about? i don't want to speak about the wrong space.

I think it's 123 S. Huron, but that's a guess from AREIS. It's a large warehouse that is actually connected to the swan creek apartments but a building than is midway into the lot

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on May 21, 2013 at 07:29:19 pm     #  

Hi 6th Floor, I've been in Toledo since 2009 and am pushing middle age but still young enough to call myself young (36) and moved here from the Tucson, AZ area. I'll gladly post up info once we are open or closer to it, and you'll undoubtedly be hearing a lot of buzz about the place soon enough. We're getting just far enough along in our build-out to start gathering some publicity. You'll see our listings in the Food section here, as well as The City Paper and various social networking sites.

This thread just isn't the appropriate place to plug our stuff and frankly, going about town leering into windows (whichever one of you it is that does that) of restaurants counting empty chairs is creepy as heck and loitering outside just off property can be offputting to potential customers so doing that may be one the reasons some people have opted not to dine there. You really don't have any idea who is in those cars driving by as you take pictures and what their intentions may be. Perhaps they were driving by intending to eat there but the creepy evil Wil Wheaton on a bike leering in taking pictures may not be what that person wished to experience during their dining outing.

Also talking smack about restaurants without having been there and talked to the owners to know what is really going on is also bad for that restaurant. I'm sure you anti-Toledo people are quite glad that this site is one of the more "out there" things that is currently representing Toledo on the web, well this and the short-lived "Toledo Sluts Exposed" page on facebook which got more likes in one day (1380) than the Toledo City Government page has in a whole year.

For me, I think it's pretty sad that there is such negativity that is so completely closed to anything positive about Toledo that is so loud on the internet. This threads smack talk about Table Forty4 could quite possibly account for some of it's loss in business. Look at me, I just dropped in off of the internet turnip truck onto this website and how did get here? Google searching sites talking about restaurants in Toledo. It took me the entire two day waiting period just to read this whole massive thread.

These days many people form their initial opinions about things based on what they read online. That's about as effective as asking a local homeless alcoholic for advice on the best clothing store but it's still where many people are getting their information and the information they are getting is so negative then why might we still be in this spiral of negativity?

There is a diffference between truth and facts, and many people's truth is that Toledo is an awful place and will never get better but the facts are the median age of Toledo is 31.5 and a lot of those folks are moving into the Warehouse District and other areas nearby downtown and a lot of them want an active downtown with a vibrant culture and walkable shopping.

Our basic business plan is mid-range priced locavore fine dining and tea room with formal Victorian living history flare in a large historic mansion nearby downtown. We are not planning on being open until May of 2014 as we are being careful with the restoration to make sure everything is period and our kitchens are up to code and capable of preparing Victorian recipes. That's why I'm a bit sensitive about smack-talking food service businesses because it's hard work and you don't always succeed, but it's hard graft all the way win or lose.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 21, 2013 at 09:34:54 pm     #   6 people liked this

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I'm very touchy about people not paying their property taxes and that's one of the reasons the schools suck around here. But when I hear about a restaurant that isn't paying it's taxes I get concerned before I get suspiscious. I don't immediately hop on the fail-train. There could be multiple reasons up to and including bad management and corruption.

I would recommend eating at Table Forty4 before posting trash-talk about them. Judge their food and service for yourself. Eat their a second time and you can judge their consistency too. If you really don't want to eat at T44, then there is The Registry Bistro, which is fairly new and has quite a snappy website and good looking menu and nice interior layout. They seem to have made quite a lovely addition to downtown.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 21, 2013 at 09:42:28 pm     #   4 people liked this

For me, I think it's pretty sad that there is such negativity that is so completely closed to anything positive about Toledo that is so loud on the internet. This threads smack talk about Table Forty4 could quite possibly account for some of it's loss in business. Look at me, I just dropped in off of the internet turnip truck onto this website and how did get here? Google searching sites talking about restaurants in Toledo.

great point.

posted by upso on May 21, 2013 at 09:45:40 pm     #   4 people liked this

"Our basic business plan is mid-range priced locavore fine dining and tea room with formal Victorian living history flare in a large historic mansion nearby downtown. We are not planning on being open until May of 2014 as we are being careful with the restoration to make sure everything is period and our kitchens are up to code and capable of preparing Victorian recipes."

I have absolutely no idea what this means, but I am incredibly interested.

posted by Johio83 on May 21, 2013 at 10:48:59 pm     #  

You lost me at: "I have been here since 2009. Your schools suck because people don't pay their property taxes."

What are the capital raising sessions, bake sales?

posted by justread on May 22, 2013 at 06:12:27 am     #   1 person liked this

57% of Lucas County Public Schools budget comes from property taxes. 48% of the public library budget comes out of property taxes. We pay our taxes on time becayuse we want good schools and a good library. Toledo isn't alone in being set up that way either. Most cities and towns are set up to fund the schools and luibraries largely through property tax.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 22, 2013 at 07:23:24 am     #  

Most cities and towns don't have our school board. :)

Anyway... I am not a hater. Like I've indicated earlier in the thread, I love guys with artistic and cultural vision who sacrifice making money for an artistic dream.

I love good restaurants and hope for another. And I mourn for the good ones with decent business plans that have still failed.
Especially Diva. But that closed before 2009, so you may not be aware of it.

Good luck.

posted by justread on May 22, 2013 at 07:58:47 am     #  

You're right about that justread. The Libbey High demolition was a tragedy of unimaginable proprotions. Seems like our school board has lost all sense of reason quite some time ago (long before I moved here). Maybe we should drag someone out of the woodwork to run for the super's position or Toledo's equivalent of it and maybe work to fix some of the craziness that passes for operating a school system around here.

Toledo on the whole needs more creative, out-of-the-box thinkers young and old alike. By out-of-the-box, I don't mean out of one and into another either. We need some real creativity to get us out of the mess we are in. Both in business and government. That's why I'm voting Sean Nestor for City Council. Maybe some new blood can get things flowing on the city level again.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 22, 2013 at 08:33:43 am     #  

justread posted at 07:58:47 AM on May 22, 2013:

Most cities and towns don't have our school board. :)

Anyway... I am not a hater. Like I've indicated earlier in the thread, I love guys with artistic and cultural vision who sacrifice making money for an artistic dream.

I love good restaurants and hope for another. And I mourn for the good ones with decent business plans that have still failed.
Especially Diva. But that closed before 2009, so you may not be aware of it.

Good luck.

If you liked Diva (which you should have! :)) the chef (Erika) is now the co-owner of Registry Bistro. EASILY the best restaurant in NW Ohio. Killer menu and wine list, and their bartenders know how to make excellent cocktails. And! It's downtown. And! Affordable. Oh and: doing great business every day they're open. Of course, that's shocking since everything downtown is supposed to fail.

posted by endcycle on May 22, 2013 at 09:07:36 am     #   2 people liked this

ONEVillageIsAwesome posted at 06:26:02 PM on May 21, 2013:

Endcycle - I'd love to get together. I'm usually free during the middle of the week early in the month. Our mid-months get busy because we are doing limited service in the form of formal events on a monthly basis to help restore our historical property to its former glory and raise capital.

cool- if i can figure out how to message someone on this forum (this software is weird) I'll drop you a line.

BTW: historical food? Heck yeah. That's got some interest from me already.

posted by endcycle on May 22, 2013 at 09:08:41 am     #  

IDinspired said: I understand that a forum like this isn't set up for that - just wishful thinking on my part.

It's more than wishful thinking, it's delusional thinking. People respond to what I say not because they see my words, it's because they know full well that other people see my words. That one-village idiot essentially said so.

I've had that sort of thing lobbed at me on other forums, particularly forums with 'ignore' features, and you know what happened? Yep: The complainers kept responding to me. They can't ignore me, since then I'd continue to talk without challenge, spreading the disease of real knowledge that all propagandists oppose.

And as it stands, you can just ignore me now; it's not like it's hard to just skip over text visually. Or skip over 6th_Floor. Or UPSO, or your mother when she's pouring your morning egg nog. But you won't... because you can't take the risk that my words stand unchallenged (or what passes for challenge amongst the delusional set of folks). (And you shouldn't ignore your mother either, or she'll stop feeding you.)

posted by GuestZero on May 22, 2013 at 09:50:28 am     #  

ONE idiot said: Perhaps they were driving by intending to eat there but the creepy evil Wil Wheaton on a bike leering in taking pictures may not be what that person wished to experience during their dining outing.

I don't ride a bike downtown. I drive a car. And I'm well enough dressed.

The reality here that you're avoiding saying is that there's another form of street life that drives people away. It rhymes with "Blacks".

But hey, enough reality for now. I'll take credit from your assertions for single-handedly destroying retail activity downtown. I did it. Me, GuestZero. So, I'll gladly setup a Paypal account for receiving payments from downtown retail owners for outright bribes to stay away. I'm cheap; I'll only need $10000 or so in total donations each year to avoid the downtown entirely that year. As taxes go, that's a deal. And then customers will flood back into Table 44 like it was 2006 again. Really, I should charge more, but I'm not greedy. (Greed is the problem of your class of person, ONE idiot.)

posted by GuestZero on May 22, 2013 at 10:06:28 am     #  

endcycle posted at 09:07:36 AM on May 22, 2013:
justread posted at 07:58:47 AM on May 22, 2013:

Most cities and towns don't have our school board. :)

Anyway... I am not a hater. Like I've indicated earlier in the thread, I love guys with artistic and cultural vision who sacrifice making money for an artistic dream.

I love good restaurants and hope for another. And I mourn for the good ones with decent business plans that have still failed.
Especially Diva. But that closed before 2009, so you may not be aware of it.

Good luck.

If you liked Diva (which you should have! :)) the chef (Erika) is now the co-owner of Registry Bistro. EASILY the best restaurant in NW Ohio. Killer menu and wine list, and their bartenders know how to make excellent cocktails. And! It's downtown. And! Affordable. Oh and: doing great business every day they're open. Of course, that's shocking since everything downtown is supposed to fail.

Always a good reminder. I'm overdue at Registry.

posted by justread on May 22, 2013 at 10:07:22 am     #   3 people liked this

ONE idiot said: I would recommend eating at Table Forty4 before posting trash-talk about them. Judge their food and service for yourself.

Why would I need to? Most of Toledo has already judged, either directly (by staying away due to disdain) or indirectly (by staying away because they're struggling to pay bills). I was just noting its failure. Oh wait, I forgot, Toledoans check here a lot to see my views on restaurants. GuestZero the creepy restaurant slayer. Surely there's some municipal law[*] that would allow me to be prosecuted for my terrible effect on the local economy.

[*] Oh shit, there's that First Amendment thing. Drat! Fucking teabaggers!

posted by GuestZero on May 22, 2013 at 10:16:45 am     #  

dude you're just getting boring

posted by upso on May 22, 2013 at 10:21:04 am     #   14 people liked this

I looked at The Registry's website and menu and they look fantastic, I'm definitely going to give them a try. Really nice looking interior!

I'm going to give Table Forty4 a shot myself before I judge them, but thier website is suspended and there have been no facebook updates since 2011.

Again, I am an outsider here, but it looks to me like the owners of Table Forty4 have just given up...which is on them, not downtown business development and the viability of downtown ion general. You can conflate the two all you want, Guest Zero, but that still doesn't mean they are related.

It looks like they haven't paid their taxes since their business turned down a couple years ago. So, they're struggling. Perhaps they'll close and it will be unfortunate if they do. Not somethign to celebrate. The fact that they're still trying to hang on says something, if nothing more than for stoicism which should impress you phony modern conservatives cause you guys beat your head against so many brick walls repeatedly, it's no wonder you have brain damage.

In the restaurant world, there are three bridges you have to cross. The one year, the three year and the five year. The first year is the hardest to make it through, and most restaurants fail during the first three years. If you make it to the five year mark and are still turning a profit and your profits are on a noticable rise, then you're doing good. If you're just breaking even, then you're probably looking at what your business is going to look like for the long-run without significant changes. Many people just start slacking off once they're breaking even. They relax instead of buckling down and trying harder. That's a mistake that many many many many restauranteurs make and it signals the five year failure of many food service establishments.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 22, 2013 at 10:35:37 am     #   1 person liked this

I went to Table Forty Four last summer before a Mud Hens game during one of my trips to Toledo. It was good. Nothing special in my mind, but good. There are some outstanding places downtown, but I just don't consider them in that category.

I do have a big problem with them not paying taxes, though. The fact that they reap the benefits of taxes (especially with them being a commercial business), don't pay, and aren't punished by the appropriate municipality really bothers me.

posted by clt212 on May 22, 2013 at 10:54:49 am     #  

Table44 had the potential to do some very cool stuff, but generally suffered from a boring menu and mediocre service. A shame, too - very cool location and atmosphere otherwise. The food is... fine.

The real surprise for me was the newly renovated Durty Bird - their food is kind of great. Interesting, fun menu, great flavors, and very good specials. Highly recommend checking them out too.

posted by endcycle on May 22, 2013 at 11:24:22 am     #   2 people liked this

From ONEVillageIsAwesome: Again, I am an outsider here, but it looks to me like the owners of Table Forty4 have just given up...

You know, it does appear that the owners may be throwing in the proverbial towel. Look up Table Forty4 on Google maps and read a few of the comments, and by that I mean the negative comments. The place showed lousy service, and that's something that will put you out of business faster than the IRS. Well, maybe not faster, but arguably much more painfully. Customers may come in, but they won't be back. A few may leave without ordering.

From ONEVillageIsAwesome: We pay our taxes on time becayuse [because - MJ] we want good schools and a good library.

Just exactly what 'we' are you talking about? If this is you and your Significant Other, that's one thing. If you're referring to the general public, that's something entirely different - in more ways than one.

People don't pay property tax because they want a better infrastructure. They pay because they have no choice - if they want to keep their property. Otherwise the government will seize it and sell it for the tax debt.

From EndCycle: ...and their bartenders know how to make excellent cocktails.

I'm going to hold you to that, and we shall see.

posted by madjack on May 22, 2013 at 11:29:45 am     #  

I love the Durty bird! I think they have one of the best chicken chunks around town. I also enjoy the "Durty" Sauce!

ohhhh and I had a bloody mary there once and they guy that made it added a splash of Guinness and it was delicious!!!

posted by stooks on May 22, 2013 at 11:29:48 am     #   1 person liked this

_IDinspired said: I understand that a forum like this isn't set up for that - just wishful thinking on my part.

It's more than wishful thinking, it's delusional thinking. People respond to what I say not because they see my words, it's because they know full well that other people see my words._

I'll respond just this once, since you've called me out. I do skip over you. As I said, I've started reading the poster before the post because of your desire to spew your repetitive narrow minded thoughts over and over on nearly every topic and every thread. It must be nice to know everything about every topic and always be correct. It also must be sad to spend so much time and effort to tell everyone how wrong they are and how right you are.

I know I've stopped reading TT as much since you've felt the need to constantly enlighten all of us with your wisdom - I wonder how many others have done the same?

Feel free to respond (as we all know you can't help yourself), but I'll just continue with my delusional, wishful thinking.

posted by idinspired on May 22, 2013 at 11:38:39 am     #   1 person liked this

Registry Bistro: The Greater Toledo Restaurant Aficionados Group is scheduled to be there Wed June 12th @ 7pm. All TT'ers are welcome to join. You can join the group here: https://www.facebook.com/events/335339523259224/

View a Virtual Tour of the Registy Bistro here: http://www.greatertoledovirtualtours.com/AA_BusinessDirectory/OhToledo/RegistryBistro_OhToledo_144NorthSuperiorSt/RegistryBistro_HRVT/_flash/RegistryBistro_HRVT_Pub_HRVT.html

posted by GTVT on May 22, 2013 at 12:36:04 pm     #  

Actually, given Toledo's history on tax foreclosures and the sheer volume of delinquent properties in the city, I'm not really worried about the city or county taking our place, the guy who lives behind us owes 37,000 in back property taxes on his dilapidated residential properties that he refuses to fix and we can't even beg the county to foreclose on him...we've tried. So, in essence we ( by that I mean my business partners and myself) pay our taxes because we are more interested in better infrastructure than fear of foreclosure.

We also reap the benefits of paying taxes so we really should, as a matter of civic responsibility, pay our taxes.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 22, 2013 at 12:55:47 pm     #  

Registry Bisto: Greater Toledo Restaurant Aficionados Group link update: https://www.facebook.com/groups/GTRAG/

posted by GTVT on May 22, 2013 at 01:08:37 pm     #  

ONEVillageIsAwesome posted at 12:55:47 PM on May 22, 2013:

Actually, given Toledo's history on tax foreclosures and the sheer volume of delinquent properties in the city, I'm not really worried about the city or county taking our place, the guy who lives behind us owes 37,000 in back property taxes on his dilapidated residential properties that he refuses to fix and we can't even beg the county to foreclose on him...we've tried. So, in essence we ( by that I mean my business partners and myself) pay our taxes because we are more interested in better infrastructure than fear of foreclosure.

We also reap the benefits of paying taxes so we really should, as a matter of civic responsibility, pay our taxes.

The lack of punishment on your neighbor is absurd. Would his house even fetch $37,000 on the market? That's probably why he's not paying. That, and knowing that he won't suffer any consequences from not paying.

With the amount of open lots in the Vistula area and the crummy/abandoned condition of many others, it would be a prime area for a "town center" redevelopment by an ambitious developer if Toledo had better population projections. That has been done to a lot of old cotton mills and other factory neighborhoods in the southeast.

posted by clt212 on May 22, 2013 at 01:26:30 pm     #  

He owns several properties, all of the blighted all of them uninhabitable and all of tax delinquent since the late 90's/early 2000's. None of his houses would get anywhere near what the tax delinquency on them is, and all of them were worth close to full market value when he acquired the properties. He is simply a lazy, crazy, property hoarder (like some people hoard houses till they are full of crap, he has multiple properties like that and some of them he has drug addicts and alcoholics squatting in for "security")

I'm on the board of the Vistula Historic Foundation and that is exactly one of the redevelopment ideas we have been floating around. One of the ideas is to convert that empty lot where the old elementary school at Lagrange and Erie used to be into a community garden park that has elements of community gardening interpsersed with the decorative elements of a public park. We are also actively seeking qualified end-users for the Lucas County Land Bank programme for new homeowners looking to live in a historic district and don't mind a "project house" which even our location is.

There are actually financial incentives to move into Vistula and grants available from United North and various other historical organizations for rehabbing a house in Vistula it's just that the only people who have been taking advantage of those programmes are folks who have converted beautiful Victorian housing stock into Section 8 housing and are currently getting market rate rents for even though it is sec8.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 22, 2013 at 02:20:40 pm     #  

"jr, can we get a "hide" function like Facebook?"

Give it a test by clicking on a username.

If you prefer to have the "posted by" line disappear too, let me know.

I display the "posted by" line in case a user wants to un-hide someone's comments by clicking on the username.

And if you want to read the hidden comment, you could click on the quote characters at the right of the "posted by" line.

posted by jr on May 22, 2013 at 02:40:18 pm     #   5 people liked this

Perfect, jr. Thank you!

posted by valbee on May 22, 2013 at 08:18:42 pm     #   2 people liked this

valbee posted at 08:18:42 PM on May 22, 2013:

Perfect, jr. Thank you!

posted by upso on May 22, 2013 at 09:23:00 pm     #  

valbee posted at 08:18:42 PM on May 22, 2013:

Perfect, jr. Thank you!

posted by toledolen_ on May 22, 2013 at 09:52:13 pm     #  

Thanks jr! Big improvement.

posted by idinspired on May 23, 2013 at 08:34:54 am     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2013/05/23/Toledos-population-slips-again.html

OVA, since you've been here since 2009, why haven't you and your flock reversed this trend yet?

posted by 6th_Floor on May 23, 2013 at 10:37:01 am     #  

Because nothing happens instantaneously there, Captain Instant Gratification.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 23, 2013 at 10:44:44 am     #   5 people liked this

Well Captain Loudmouth, Toledo has been shrinking for 30 years.

With all the vigor you portray posting here, I am expecting to see some results...eventually. I won't be holding my breath, tho.

I haven't had much time to post, but regarding T44, if they aren't going to pay their property taxes, then any bad light placed on them is good news. We don't need deadbeats competing with prudent business owners paying their bills.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 23, 2013 at 11:28:08 am     #   3 people liked this

6th, why haven't you won the lottery yet? Or made a trip to the moon? Or ended world hunger? I mean, it's been four years since 2009, why haven't you done these things yet?

See, it's really easy to throw out ridiculous assertions, and then act like the accused is at fault for not having done something yet.

posted by Johio83 on May 23, 2013 at 11:28:42 am     #   5 people liked this

UPSO whined: dude you're just getting boring

You already know what you're going to read when you see a post from GZ. A practical solution would be to quit reading his posts and/or this thread.

What's equally boring is the same level of homer-ish drivel while Toledo languishes.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 23, 2013 at 11:32:10 am     #   2 people liked this

JOhio, go flip through your rolodex and figure out why Fort on the River closed in less than 6 weeks.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 23, 2013 at 11:33:50 am     #   2 people liked this

While you're at it, let us know about the latest rumors about the next Fortune 500 company relocating in WHD.

Oh wait! I forgot that WHD first needs a grocery store? That's the final piece before the area REALLY takes off!

Meanwhile back in Realityville, even convenience stores can't keep their doors open in the area.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 23, 2013 at 11:39:47 am     #   3 people liked this

idinspired said: It must be nice to know everything about every topic and always be correct.

It is, actually. That's supposedly why we seek education and make use of 5-1/2 pounds of brain. Why, what did you think education and 100 billion neurons were for? Making money? Personally I'm finding my billions and billions of very active neurons are being used for schadenfreude.

idinspired said: It also must be sad to spend so much time and effort to tell everyone how wrong they are and how right you are.

It is, really. We live in a highly delusional society. Reality will fix all this soon enough, so that's something to look forward to. I know I'm looking forward to it. The anguished cries of the foreclosed and the bankrupt hearten me today, for I told them all (often in this very forum; check the archives) that all this was going to happen. Look, it's still happening:

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2013/05/23/Toledos-population-slips-again.html

Toledo's 2012 est. population of 284K matches her first population upswing period to almost 1929. (Toledo lost population during the First Great Depression. So it figures that in this Second Great Depression we're losing again, except this is more severe.) The depopulation will continue to happen; Toledo's population will drop to the 1910s level at least. That means less money. Less business. Less employment. So it means we'll do less with less. The wise man foresees the future and prepares for it. So... are you a wise man, Idinspired?

posted by GuestZero on May 23, 2013 at 12:03:39 pm     #  

jr posted at 02:40:18 PM on May 22, 2013:

"jr, can we get a "hide" function like Facebook?"

Give it a test by clicking on a username.

If you prefer to have the "posted by" line disappear too, let me know.

I display the "posted by" line in case a user wants to un-hide someone's comments by clicking on the username.

And if you want to read the hidden comment, you could click on the quote characters at the right of the "posted by" line.

Works good, lasts a long time. Thanks JR.

posted by madjack on May 23, 2013 at 12:06:09 pm     #  

idinspired said: It must be nice to know everything about every topic and always be correct.

It is, actually. That's supposedly why we seek education and make use of 5-1/2 pounds of brain. Why, what did you think education and 100 billion neurons were for? Making money? Personally I'm finding my billions and billions of very active neurons are being used for schadenfreude.

Well, we're not always correct, are we, GZ?

http://www.toledotalk.com/cgi-bin/tt.pl/article/138854#139034

But when we're called out as 100% wrong...well, we just run away like a scared little bitch and pretend the whole thing never happened, instead of addressing the challenge. Am I right?

posted by Sohio on May 23, 2013 at 12:26:59 pm     #   1 person liked this

ONE idiot said: There are actually financial incentives to move into Vistula and grants available from United North and various other historical organizations for rehabbing a house in Vistula it's just that the only people who have been taking advantage of those programmes are folks who have converted beautiful Victorian housing stock into Section 8 housing and are currently getting market rate rents for even though it is sec8.

Well well well. Imagine that. A government program gone awry. Who could have foreseen that?

Why, people like me. I keep telling people that the property market needs to float on individual measures. Few people listen to this. This is why we tolerated the creation of the largest financial crash in all of Human history, bar none. And it's still raging.

If the City of Toledo wanted to incentivize people to move into a certain area, then it had to directly put a stop to the stuff that drove people away: Crime and Black racism and the welfare state. Sadly, the CoT has only acted to promote crime, Black racism and welfare.

There's only one way to continue to enjoy the benefits of a culture created by regulated finance, a strong rule of law, and respect for private enterprise: And that's to regulate, enforce and get out of the way of business. Yes, it's totally possible to regulate (minimally) and yet get out of the way of business. This is news to both major parties, but still.

posted by GuestZero on May 23, 2013 at 12:33:22 pm     #  

Did anybody else hear that? I could've swore I heard someone say something?

posted by hunkytownsausage on May 23, 2013 at 02:59:21 pm     #   10 people liked this

FYI, Mulvaney's Bunker on Dorr Street soon will be reopening. I expected this to happen, since the place always seemed to have business.

I stopped at Jominic's Subs on Adams this afternoon for one of their $4 dollar subs. The largest "crowd" was a whopping 3...and that includes myself. So much for the lie that they have "out the door" lines at lunchtime. I was there @ 12:30.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 12:03:12 am     #   1 person liked this

I would like to again plug that it's a pretty good sub priced at $4. Unfortunately they have to compete with Subway and another place I believe named JJ's...both within a stone's throw.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 12:04:46 am     #  

Unless Subway improved their bread, which lately has been pretty stale at the Point Place store just about anyone can beat them as far as something tasty.

posted by Linecrosser on May 24, 2013 at 01:19:24 am     #  

There it was again... It's like a giant sucking sound...

posted by hunkytownsausage on May 24, 2013 at 07:23:16 am     #   1 person liked this

Jimmy Johns had $1 subs yesterday...

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on May 24, 2013 at 08:24:14 am     #  

yeah... I have no idea how jominic's is doing, but yesterday would have been rough for any restaurant within walking distance of Jimmy John's: http://www.toledoblade.com/Food/2013/05/24/Jimmy-John-s-crowded-for-1-deal.html

posted by upso on May 24, 2013 at 08:32:53 am     #  

Jimmy John's rocks. I wish the managers would treat their employees better, but their food is far superior to Subway....and they deliver. I wonder what the repeat customer count will rise to after this promotion?

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 24, 2013 at 08:41:45 am     #  

I saw the $1 sign. Again, with 3 sub shops within 1.5 blocks of each other, it's going to be tough to earn a profit.

I went downtown for a few beers last night after posting here. Other than the Adams Street bars in Uptown, and C'n'B, downtown was a total morgue.

@ 12:15 Durty Bird, Homeslice Pizza, & T44 all were CLOSED. Not exactly the sign of hopping watering holes...especially a Thursday night. Wesleys completely dead. Bronze Boar appeared to have less customers than I have fingers.

Other bars nearby downtown were also shuttered at approximately 12:15-12:30-ish. Mickey Finn's closed, Frankies closed, Main Street (former Main Event) was open but doubt it had enough patrons to cover the electric bill.

I ended up settling in at Fricker's and had a few drafts...about 8 people were there.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 09:39:46 am     #  

huh.. when I left the blarney last night at 9 there were over 300 people out celebrating "Jam City"
I stopped by the Attic on the way home and it was packed as well. There are people out, you're just clearly going to the wrong places. :) it's all about perspective dude

posted by upso on May 24, 2013 at 10:00:31 am     #   4 people liked this

I mentioned the Adams corridor wasn't dead (except Wesley's).

When I drove by shortly after midnight, there were approximately 25 people at Blarney.

There isn't anything related to perspective regarding what I saw...it's a fact that several bars were closed shortly after midnight. You know that if doing well, bars such as T44 should still be open at 12:15 on Thursday night.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 10:07:32 am     #  

Attic was "packed" even though the overflow lot was empty? Yeah, ok upso. It looked like a decent crowd, but I've seen much better there and so have you.

I realize you rarely, if ever say anything negative about a downtown business. However, you've been hanging out @ Attic long enough to know how many cars used to be in that lot. Not only weekends, but Wed & Thurs nights as well.

There weren't any cars parked in the overflow lot after midnight and the regular lot had some open spaces, too. I still see the overflow lot being used occasionally, but their business clearly is less than prior years.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 10:14:41 am     #  

You're talking midnight, I'm talking 9pm.

My experience last night downtown was lovely and packed with people. I was in bed by 11am.

Sorry I didn't have the same experience you had.

posted by upso on May 24, 2013 at 10:19:47 am     #  

in bed by 11pm that is!

posted by upso on May 24, 2013 at 10:20:30 am     #  

Dustin "upso" H.'s Profile

http://www.yelp.com/list/the-best-places-to-eat-in-the-toledo-area-toledo

Rating Distribution
User Ratings Distribution Graph

*5 stars: 47
4 stars: 37
3 stars: 12
2 stars: 1
1 star: 1*

SMH, wtf does it take to receive a 2* or 1* from you UPSO? Seriously, what happened at the 2* and 1* places you patronized?

Holy shit man, I could have used more college professors like you back in the day.

You're averaging about 2% D & F grades and your posting here about perspective? LOL

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 10:23:28 am     #   2 people liked this

I don't do negative reviews for negative experiences on yelp because it's not fair as a business owner. I only share my positive experiences but I have a shit ton of negative ones. I just keep those to myself. :)

posted by upso on May 24, 2013 at 10:33:42 am     #   5 people liked this

Well put UPSO!

posted by stooks on May 24, 2013 at 10:34:35 am     #  

upso posted at 10:00:31 AM on May 24, 2013:

huh.. when I left the blarney last night at 9 there were over 300 people out celebrating "Jam City"
I stopped by the Attic on the way home and it was packed as well. There are people out, you're just clearly going to the wrong places. :) it's all about perspective dude

We could give 6th_Bore some perspective by putting him into the Total Perspective Vortex...

posted by anonymouscoward on May 24, 2013 at 11:43:02 am     #   1 person liked this

UPSO, really: What's the point of a quality-assurance system if it's biased against negative data?

posted by GuestZero on May 24, 2013 at 01:40:41 pm     #   2 people liked this

I stopped @ Jominic's Subs again today shortly after noon...during the alleged by another Toledo Talk downtown homer " slammed and lined up out the door" lunchtime rush hour.

Well, there never was a "line" greater than ONE and the greatest customer count inside the restaurant never surpassed FOUR, so a "rush" didn't materialize today.

Also, the sandwich quality was much poorer than my previous visits. Quite a bit of lettuce without much meat. I doubt I'll be returning for a while, if ever. My advice for them is to increase the sandwich price to $5, lighten up on the lettuce and increase the meat a bit.

Using Upso-style yelp star ratings, the place still would receive a 4 or maybe 5.

However, I'm more of a realist and call them how I see them, so my actual star rating Jominic's is going to be 2 stars. The place is locally owned, the price still is good, but the product today was quite lacking.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 04:00:23 pm     #  

Add another one to the downtown "Another one bites the dust" list.

Jefferson Diner @ 1220 Jefferson has closed.

Although I'm not sure how long ago the place closed, all the windows are covered. Additionally, the phone number painted on the building has been disconnected.

Areis data shows the property taxes are current.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 04:05:02 pm     #  

6 For someone who hates downtown so much you sure spend a lot of time down there.

posted by In_vin_veritas on May 24, 2013 at 04:29:24 pm     #   8 people liked this

6th man... you're killing me.

"Using Upso-style yelp star ratings, the place still would receive a 4 or maybe 5."

As stated above, I try (for the most part) to only post about things I think people should check out. Negative comments I take straight to management as I would hope my customers would do for me! :)

posted by upso on May 24, 2013 at 04:53:53 pm     #   5 people liked this

From Upso: As stated above, I try (for the most part) to only post about things I think people should check out. Negative comments I take straight to management as I would hope my customers would do for me! :)

Which I can appreciate. My thought was about the review you gave Angelo's Northwood Villa. I've spent considerable time at Angelo's, and I think you're being a bit generous about the food quality. The service can vary from four and a half stars to one star.

The thing is, Angelo's is not in the same class as, say, Rose and Thistle, but by your review both places are interchangeable.

posted by madjack on May 24, 2013 at 05:20:35 pm     #  

The picture I get from reading this thread: Downtown is collapsing under its own success due to no one going to all these jam packed bars. The happy citizens of Toledo could not be more depressed.

posted by splinterofchaos on May 24, 2013 at 05:26:39 pm     #   5 people liked this

the places ARE interchangeable in my mind.

i've only been to both restaurants you mention once in the past 5 years and had lovely experiences both evenings. reviews are based on both food and ambiance and whatever else happens along the way. so for example, angelo's food was great (for what it was) but i LOVED the atmosphere. flip side is, my meal was much better at the rose and thistle but the actual atmosphere didn't do as much for me.

this is yelp mind you. i'm not a professional reviewer. :)
if this was the new york times food review, they probably wouldn't even touch angelo's with a ten foot pole. me, hell... i'll eat anywhere and try anything. and more than likely i'll yelp about it.

there are a few yelp threads on TT if you'd like to talk more about this.

posted by upso on May 24, 2013 at 05:27:41 pm     #   1 person liked this

splinterofchaos posted at 05:26:39 PM on May 24, 2013:

The picture I get from reading this thread: Downtown is collapsing under its own success due to no one going to all these jam packed bars. The happy citizens of Toledo could not be more depressed.

sums it up nicely!

posted by upso on May 24, 2013 at 05:28:17 pm     #   3 people liked this

Veritas, I don't hate downtown. What I dislike is all the homerism and boondoggle. How many times do I have to post here that I have been patronizing downtown bars and restaurants for quite a long time.

It's sort of how yourself and other folks at TT hate this thread, but continue reading and posting.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 05:29:10 pm     #  

Is it at all possible that downtown is still a tough market and yet be on a comparative upswing in recent years?

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on May 24, 2013 at 05:30:17 pm     #   2 people liked this

^^^ Nope. Used as an excuse too often and for too long.

posted by 6th_Floor on May 24, 2013 at 05:36:30 pm     #  

Nolan, that seems to be the way it has worked in other cities in recent times past. Especially during periods of downtown revitalisations. Pretty much every city that "reurbanised" has gone through similar steps and stages.

posted by ONEVillageIsAwesome on May 24, 2013 at 06:16:46 pm     #  

UPSO said: Negative comments I take straight to management as I would hope my customers would do for me!

How does that help (or yelp) the rest of us? We don't know, if you don't tell us on Yelp.

Once again: What's the point of a quality-assurance system if it's biased against negative data? A system packed only with positive information is uniformly useless to consumers.

posted by GuestZero on May 25, 2013 at 06:08:40 am     #  

Nolan said: Is it at all possible that downtown is still a tough market and yet be on a comparative upswing in recent years?

As fueled by taxpayer subsidies? And highly repetitive as well documented by Jr? Hell no. You haven't been around long enough to know, and you certainly don't demonstrate knowledge of your own employer's archives about decades of documented plans for development that never panned out (and will never pan out).

posted by GuestZero on May 25, 2013 at 06:11:26 am     #  

Hide. Thanks jr.

posted by holland on May 25, 2013 at 07:35:55 am     #  

GZ: yelp works because some people only post positive stuff, some people only post negative stuff, some people only post once, and some people just read the posts. it's the internet. it works itself out.

posted by nits on May 25, 2013 at 12:25:31 pm     #   2 people liked this

I drove through downtown during the lunch hour today, I certainly didn't see tumbleweeds like GZarthy and 6th_Bore claim.

posted by anonymouscoward on May 31, 2013 at 03:44:57 pm     #   6 people liked this

DT Toledo is indeed a step up from tumbleweeds, AC. But that's still not viable economic activity. You can't find tumbleweeds in Detroit either. There's a lesson there for you, assuming Liberals can learn, which isn't a good bet.

6th_Floor has already taken the steps to watch the economic activity that's happening. I've done the same to a lesser degree. The conclusion is that it's not enough for the outlets that are there. There are too many bars, restaurants, shops and galleries to be serviced by customers.

I doubt you even slowed down to notice those details, AC. Or, you have some ideological barrier against admitting it. Some combination thereof, I posit. Your latter factor was ever my thesis here.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 02, 2013 at 08:32:42 pm     #  

I didn't mention this earlier this year, since I haven't asked about it or looked often enough to know if it was officially closed.

After a couple last gasps, it appears that Mickey Finns has finally has bitten the dust.

Finns was closed tonight on a Friday night. Also, I was told by a friend Friday afternoon that whoever was leasing the bar for a while didn't work out, so Mickey finally threw in the towel. It'll be available for special events, but the bar is closed. He more or less owns the entire block and it's all for sale.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 15, 2013 at 03:12:13 am     #  

UPSO replied about MF: __It's still going strong. I have several friends working there, and they are still employed.
__
! posted by upso on Jan 15, 2012 at 03:07:12 am # +

Of course I didn't believe MF was "going strong" when I questioned if the bar would soon close last year, but I must ask where are your friends formerly employed by MF working now?

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 15, 2013 at 03:22:35 am     #  

had to ask around because i'm totally out of the loop on the nightlife happenings in toledo these days. looks like they've been closed for about two months.

the bar had been being managed by a company called Innovation Concerts: http://innovationconcerts.com they were basically running the bar 100% renting the space from Mickey. They did some upgrades to the kitchen, amped up security and from the sounds of it things were going really well.

Then one day, employees showed up, the locks had been changed as well as the security codes with a note on the door saying that the contract between MF & Innovation had been breached.

From the sounds of it, it's going to be re-opened but I have no more information then that. My friends that were working there have either gone on to different serving jobs, or on to other things. For example one guy is now back to tattooing full-time at infinite art on secor.

That's all the info I have but I'll let you know if I hear more.

have a great weekend!

posted by upso on Jun 15, 2013 at 02:23:55 pm     #   5 people liked this

Thanks for the update upso. It matches what my friend told me Mickey decided. I'm assuming that Innovation Concerts lack of paying rent had a lot to do with the contract being breached.

Tequila Sheila's also was absent activity last night at 11pm. If a similar situation exists tonight, it's probably a safe bet to add Tequila Sheila's to the "Another one bites the dust" list.

On a brighter note, it appears some sort of art business will be opening on St. Clair where Fine Things Bistro was located.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 15, 2013 at 04:20:03 pm     #  

Tequila Sheila's Bar @ Monroe & Erie Street again was closed Saturday night, so it appears to be out of business.

This afternoon I noticed antique/gift store named "Rare Finds on Adams LLC" has left downtown and moved to 1414 N. Reynolds.

A sign in the window states the last day of business was 6-15 and they would be re-opening in July on Reynolds Road.

I cannot recall a weekend where I saw less activity downtown. Blarney & Table44 didn't even bother opening today for potential Father's Day business.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 16, 2013 at 06:59:43 pm     #  

Rare Finds on Adams LLC formerly operated at 1501 Adams...across the street from Manhattan's.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 16, 2013 at 07:00:39 pm     #  

If you think things are going really well, and then suddenly the doors are padlocked, then the rational man goes back and examines why the heck he ever thought things were going really well.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 16, 2013 at 07:50:25 pm     #  

6th... that's interesting. the blarney was closed? their website says they should have been open: http://www.theblarneyirishpub.com/contact-hours.aspx
their facebook page makes no mention of being closed: https://www.facebook.com/blarneytoledo

I checked table 44's website and yikes: http://www.tableforty4.com/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi
their account has been suspended! their facebook page hasn't been updated since november of last year: https://www.facebook.com/TableForty4

as for the antique shops on adams... i'm not surprised one of them has moved. While personally I loved the location as it was on my way home from work... every time I visited it was beyond dead / empty. Hope they find better luck in their new Reynolds local. Only clarification I would make is that rarefinds was in "uptown" not "downtown" :) not that it matters either way!

posted by upso on Jun 16, 2013 at 09:31:19 pm     #  

Upso, I was downtown a few different times Sunday and Blarney wasn't open. Their posted business hours state Sundays are "Special events only."

Pizza Papalis looked like it benefited from the lack of competition in the immediate area.

Regarding T44, it's long past time to assign it dead man walking status. Not only are they not paying property taxes, lacking crowds, now they aren't even maintaining a website or their FB page.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 17, 2013 at 12:09:59 am     #  

Maybe drop them a hint to change their business hours at their facebook page, to match what's posted in their front window sign and their actual operating hours?

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 17, 2013 at 12:25:46 am     #  

Well T44 appears to be doing business right now, so GZ and 6th, why don't you call them and ask about the website, Facebook, and taxes? Or are you chicken? I double dog dare you.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jun 17, 2013 at 12:14:18 pm     #   2 people liked this

Why would I need to ask T44 about their taxes? I pay taxes to a government that's supposed to collect taxes from everyone without bias, without fail. Why aren't they doing that in T44's case? Levy, then seize, then auction it off. Drive that price down.

I passed by Bleak House Coffee (should have been called Bleak Coffee House, but I digress) today at 830am. Prime time for morning coffee, AC. I specifically walked from my car to the front glass and creepily peered in just to make the barista fear for her life and maidenhead. So, care to guess how many customers were packed in there?

TWO. LOL!

The Spitzer and Nicholas buildings are done, like dinner. You cheerleaders avoid that new part of the downtown desolation. A new economy is not being constructed. What's happening downtown is a bunch of moving things around so that you people have something to rah-rah about.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 17, 2013 at 12:55:55 pm     #  

I specifically walked from my car to the front glass and creepily peered in just to make the barista fear for her life and maidenhead.

Her maidenhead. Oooookkkaaaaaaaayyyyyy.....

Chester the Molester lives....

posted by oldhometown on Jun 17, 2013 at 01:08:35 pm     #   5 people liked this

Chester the Middle Englishman. :)

posted by justread on Jun 17, 2013 at 01:13:30 pm     #  

I knew you'd like the verbiage. I speak of course to refined gentlemen who understand the country matters whereof I speak.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 17, 2013 at 02:23:47 pm     #  

You still could have called and asked about the website and Facebook, GZarthy. Or call the tax collections office about the back taxes, since that's such a huge issue for you and The Blah is failing at investigating it. I'd make "bawk bawk" noises at you for being a chicken, but you'd think it was a come-on.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jun 17, 2013 at 02:44:17 pm     #  

oldhometown posted at 01:08:35 PM on Jun 17, 2013:

I specifically walked from my car to the front glass and creepily peered in just to make the barista fear for her life and maidenhead.

Her maidenhead. Oooookkkaaaaaaaayyyyyy.....

Chester the Molester lives....

Yeeeaah. Can't understand why more people don't hang out in these places. Random creeps leering in the windows is a selling point in more chic locales than Toledo...

posted by Sohio on Jun 17, 2013 at 02:47:01 pm     #   5 people liked this

I'm not sure why I typed "Rare Finds" because the actual name is "Great Finds on Adams LLC." A second store also existed there named "Valentine Vintage" but it's also moving to Reynolds Road.

Bleakhouse is so dead and empty I saw an employee or patron sleeping there Saturday afternoon. LOL

Jominic's has added Saturday hours via their "Summer schedule." There wasn't a single customer there Saturday when I was in the area. Unfortunately, I don't see 2014 being part of Jominic's future.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 17, 2013 at 06:12:34 pm     #  

From the TT posting guidelines:

"don't troll, which means posting inflammatory messages for the sole purpose of baiting others to argue the points until blue in the face. People "troll" for kicks and to destroy conversations and communities. Intelligent discussion and debate is preferred."

Apparently GuestZero making rape jokes about real people doesn't cross the line. All of the visitors to this site that do not have accounts see the filth that many have hidden from view.

You may have taken away part of his audience jr, but he still has a medium. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks such posts "destroy conversations and communities."

posted by brainswell on Jun 17, 2013 at 06:59:56 pm     #   2 people liked this

Brian posted: __Apparently GuestZero making rape jokes about real people doesn't cross the line. All of the visitors to this site that do not have accounts see the filth that many have hidden from view. __

What GZ typed was in response to all the ridiculous posts by others regarding observing business activity. There are hundreds of weirdos wandering downtown daily...GZ is the least of their worries.

Bleakhouse has very little business, and will close when Ciolek tires of the monthly burning of his earned cash.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 17, 2013 at 11:03:23 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 11:03:23 PM on Jun 17, 2013:

Brian posted: __Apparently GuestZero making rape jokes about real people doesn't cross the line. All of the visitors to this site that do not have accounts see the filth that many have hidden from view. __

What GZ typed was in response to all the ridiculous posts by others regarding observing business activity. There are hundreds of weirdos wandering downtown daily...GZ is the least of their worries.

Bleakhouse has very little business, and will close when Ciolek tires of the monthly burning of his earned cash.

You and GZ are NOT the least of downtown's worries. I'm waiting for the inevitable day when you two get wind of the final day of another downtown business and are standing outside jerkin' your tiny gherkins while waving Westboro Baptist-esque signs as the owner flips the sign around to CLOSED. I can see the signs... "GOD HATES DOWNTOWN" "BUSINESSES CLOSE, ADAM SMITH LAUGHS" "PRAY FOR MORE FAILING BUSINESSES"

You two schmucks GET OFF on the closing of small businesses while spouting nearly every line of the oh-so-business-friendly Republican/Libertarian platform. I can't imagine how you live with the cognitive dissonance.

Is that what you guys do all day, creep around Downtown getting a boner every time you don't see the kind of business you expect, peeping in windows and slowly cruising around in your broken-down rusted-out shitbox vans like pedos near a playground? Then after a busy day logging how many people are at each place during the lunch hour, you rush online to post here about it.

Seriously, cheering on small businesses and downtown to fail? What kind of demented sickos do you have to be to indiscriminately cheer on small businesses to fail? 4Chan /b/tards are less sick than you two. Why don't you go do something else up your alley, like cheer on cancer in cancer patients, or donate spray paint to vandals, or buy your friendly neighborhood arsonist a can of gas and a box of matches?

This sort of behavior really enforces the idea that Libertarianism is just anarchy for rich people. "I got mine so fuck you, let it all burn!"

Everyone who thinks GZ and 6th are sick puppies* for this creeping around downtown and cheerleading for businesses to fail ought to click on the little + to show them exactly how many people here dislike their attitude and outlook on life.

*This is in no way meant to compare GZ and 6th to puppies or paint puppies as being sick in any way. Please, puppies, don't sue me for slander.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jun 17, 2013 at 11:51:54 pm     #   9 people liked this

AC, you are one of 3 people I have on block here at TT.

So, I no longer see or read your posts.

What you think about me never mattered, and what's awesome is I no longer have to read most of your trolling nonsense here.

Cheers :)

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 18, 2013 at 03:12:57 am     #  

Sohio said: Can't understand why more people don't hang out in these places. Random creeps leering in the windows is a selling point in more chic locales than Toledo...

It's not the random 'creeps' that put people off. It's the nutty Black people wandering around downtown like a zombie horde, dressed in literal rags, and muttering something that sounds like "gimme change" or "gimme brains" (they sound so similar). Glad to finally get one of you Liberals to even admit that it's even possible that a population of undesirable people can cause the degradation of such an urban area. What remains is for you to admit that it's not a well-dressed White fellow like myself that's to blame. There aren't even that many of those downtown, visually speaking. So it's another class of person. Slowly the truth will hit you.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 18, 2013 at 10:19:41 am     #  

Ac (ever the fan) said: You two schmucks GET OFF on the closing of small businesses while spouting nearly every line of the oh-so-business-friendly Republican/Libertarian platform.

I can't speak for 6F, but I enjoy watching economic rationality asserting itself brutally on those who long denied it. Open up a business downtown, particularly a retail one, and you're doing one of the most stupid things ever.

As for 'schmuck', your yarmulke is showing. Oy vey iz mir, oh weh! What a nebbish.

(LOLs mandatory.)

posted by GuestZero on Jun 18, 2013 at 10:26:12 am     #  

AC (riding coattails) said: What kind of demented sickos do you have to be to indiscriminately cheer on small businesses to fail?

Oh, I'm not indiscriminate. I observe, judge, then laugh as required by sound criteria. There's space for some coffee houses, restaurants, bars and hotels downtown. Some. No question. But that space is smaller than what we have today. That's what Toledo's economic energy supports.

BTW, I checked Giammarco's long-slogging location at 611 Monroe St and noticed there's no current tax information there at all. The Summary page lists nothing for current taxes, not even zeroes. The Current Taxes tab says "[t]here is no current collection information on file for this parcel". Seems like a pretty sweet deal for Giammarco... but that seems a little odd, for if what's going on there is slated to be soooooo successful, then why has his tax obligation been zeroized? In turn, I'm gonna GuestZeroize it. LOLs all around!

What's really going on downtown is so obvious it's becoming painful, like walking through some of the thistles coming up through the sidewalk gratings near Grumpy's. There's a huge scam going on downtown. Taxpayers are being screwed. Those who are still paying, I mean.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 18, 2013 at 10:38:47 am     #  

http://i.imgur.com/iNruyBM.png <-- Whatever he has to say? Yeah. Probably doesn't matter.

Dear JR: dude made jokes about raping real life women in Toledo. Is that okay still by your rules on this board? Because uh... rape? Not so funny.

posted by endcycle on Jun 18, 2013 at 03:36:53 pm     #   1 person liked this

Another day...another one bites the dust downtown.

This place never had a chance from day one. I'm not sure if they even made it a full year.

The dumbfucks have a vote YES for issue 25 sign still in their window, so as far as I'm concerned, anybody that stupid deserves to go out of business.

Weekdays Breakfast & Lunch Diner @ 614 Adams Street.

A sign on the front door reads: "Sorry, Weedkays is closed PERMANENTLY. Thank you to all our customers that supported us while we were here.

God Bless!

Sean & the entire Weekdays staff.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 18, 2013 at 03:55:05 pm     #  

Weekdays Diner neighbor, Jominic's Subs is so empty more days than not, it will be lucky to be open when 2013 ends.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 18, 2013 at 04:16:15 pm     #  

I know Sean and work with his brother. Weekdays had an awesome burger and breakfast food. I will definitely miss them during lunch downtown.

However, I tried that Jominic's Sub place and I will never go back- Sandwiches were kind of pricy and took FOREVER to make and we were the only ones in there at the time.

posted by stooks on Jun 18, 2013 at 04:26:51 pm     #  

I tried weekdays once. I ordered about 12:10 and did not get food until about 12:50. Food was decent, but the wait was ridiculous, so I never went back.

posted by brainswell on Jun 18, 2013 at 04:32:31 pm     #  

Oh we always ordered ahead of time for pickup.

We always seem to have a hit or miss experience at Focaccias when we dine in.

posted by stooks on Jun 18, 2013 at 04:45:45 pm     #  

brainswell posted :

Apparently GuestZero making rape jokes about real people doesn't cross the line.

endcycle posted :

Dear JR: dude made jokes about raping real life women in Toledo. Is that okay still by your rules on this board?

Can you post a link to the comment because I don't know what you're talking about.

posted by jr on Jun 18, 2013 at 05:47:56 pm     #  

I believe the statement in question was:

I passed by Bleak House Coffee (should have been called Bleak Coffee House, but I digress) today at 830am. Prime time for morning coffee, AC. I specifically walked from my car to the front glass and creepily peered in just to make the barista fear for her life and maidenhead. So, care to guess how many customers were packed in there?

posted by oldhometown on Jun 18, 2013 at 06:00:19 pm     #   3 people liked this

6th_Floor posted at 03:12:57 AM on Jun 18, 2013:

AC, you are one of 3 people I have on block here at TT.

So, I no longer see or read your posts.

What you think about me never mattered, and what's awesome is I no longer have to read most of your trolling nonsense here.

Cheers :)

Hey everyone, isn't it just great now that we have an ignore feature to see the trolls do the "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU BECAUSE I BLOCKED YOU!" dance?

Thanks, jr.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jun 19, 2013 at 01:02:15 am     #   3 people liked this

The biggest joke of all here is the very idea that anyone who checks out the businesses downtown is in any way creepy. Hang a sign, OHT and others, simply saying that you want to ban anyone who notices the emperor is stark naked, walking with a limp, and has the consumption.

2013 is turning out to be a milestone year for downtown business closures and drawdowns. By Labor Day, there will be more of that to report.

Any of you turds that want to say different, simply instead slap shut that yipping yap and work to make Toledo better. I do that every day. Every day. I go to work, pay taxes, and keep my street and home safe and clean. Imagine how much better off we'd be if everyone did that. Of course, that would require transforming a lot of the takers (the 47%) into makers. Seems pretty much impossible at this juncture. Toledo intends to rot down into an urban humus, driven by the buzzing bacteria in the welfare state.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 19, 2013 at 09:59:46 am     #   1 person liked this

JR- oldhometown posted it. I personally think it's borderline, but man... making a joke about raping someone? Even in obvious jest, that's a real person you're talking about there buddy.

posted by endcycle on Jun 19, 2013 at 10:29:03 am     #   1 person liked this

6th_Floor posted:

"Tequila Sheila's Bar @ Monroe & Erie Street again was closed Saturday night, so it appears to be out of business"

Ya know, this is one odd business. I pass by it on my way home each evening. Mostly it is closed. Every now and then it is open.

posted by Foodie on Jun 19, 2013 at 10:47:25 am     #  

I go to work everyday, pay taxes, keep my house looking good, the street however is filled with terrible potholes and crazy drivers:-P

ohh! I also don't leave my trash cans sitting empty out front three days after trash pick up. :)

posted by stooks on Jun 19, 2013 at 10:50:20 am     #  

because I wanted to be 800

posted by Molsonator on Jun 19, 2013 at 11:00:32 am     #   2 people liked this

Boating.
The new Mexican Restaurant.

posted by justread on Jun 19, 2013 at 11:32:54 am     #  

Dam, he moved it. :)

posted by justread on Jun 19, 2013 at 11:33:13 am     #  

GuestZero posted on Jun 17, 2013 :

I specifically walked from my car to the front glass and creepily peered in just to make the barista fear for her life and maidenhead.

GuestZero posted on Jun 19, 2013 (less than 48 hours later) :

The biggest joke of all here is the very idea that anyone who checks out the businesses downtown is in any way creepy.

GuestZero, you proudly proclaimed your intentional creepy behavior, and then you whine about others calling your actions creepy.

Is my math correct on that? If so, then your thinking is a bit scatterbrained.

By the way:

"creepily peered in just to make the barista fear for her life and maidenhead."

is probably not the best way to impress the ladies.

posted by jr on Jun 19, 2013 at 11:52:16 am     #   1 person liked this

I think that was in reply to all the others that called him creepy for reporting his observations around downtown.

posted by Linecrosser on Jun 19, 2013 at 12:17:21 pm     #  

btw: went to jominics today. 2 people in front of me and around 10 people came in altogether after I ordered at 12:20ish. They made a really tasty genoa salami sub for me ($4!), and I watched a very large catering meal getting put together. anecdotally, they seem to be doing relatively fine... but maybe they should be death-watched anyway since, well, they exist and stuff.

shame about weekdays closing - but not too surprising. great food, terrible service.

posted by endcycle on Jun 19, 2013 at 03:08:31 pm     #  

endcycle posted at 03:08:31 PM on Jun 19, 2013:

btw: went to jominics today. 2 people in front of me and around 10 people came in altogether after I ordered at 12:20ish. They made a really tasty genoa salami sub for me ($4!), and I watched a very large catering meal getting put together. anecdotally, they seem to be doing relatively fine... but maybe they should be death-watched anyway since, well, they exist and stuff.

shame about weekdays closing - but not too surprising. great food, terrible service.

Didn't you hear, there's a new law that's been developed in physics: GuestZero's Law. It's based of of Schrödinger's Cat and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and it states that unless GZ himself actually observes business patronage downtown, that business is dead and patrons do not exist.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jun 19, 2013 at 05:42:16 pm     #   1 person liked this

http://www.toledonewsnow.com/story/22636495/three-dozen-delinquent-taxpayers-owe-lucas-county-5m

Well there you go, are ya happy now?

posted by anonymouscoward on Jun 19, 2013 at 11:52:33 pm     #  

Jr said: GuestZero, you proudly proclaimed your intentional creepy behavior, and then you whine about others calling your actions creepy.

I'm just peeping in retail windows in order to judge how small the customer bases are. The rest is an invention birthed from the umbrage of the Liberals who can't stand that I'm even checking.

So I'm not whining, I'm laughing. I guess my mouth is open in either case, which confused you. Now they're attempting to ban me on the basis of their inventions. This is how a censorship system operates when people can't be stopped otherwise in their liberties.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 20, 2013 at 12:45:05 pm     #  

Endcycle said: Even in obvious jest, that's a real person you're talking about there buddy.

I was the real person you motherfuckers had called every name in the book in the first place. This umbrage of yours is pure invention. And downtown businesses are still failing and are still underserved and are still the biggest scam going in Toledo. Shutting me up won't change any of that.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 20, 2013 at 12:47:16 pm     #  

AC said: Well there you go, are ya happy now?

The Blade should be running a deadbeat list every Sunday. So no, it's not enough.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 20, 2013 at 12:50:00 pm     #  

I'm just peeping in retail windows in order to judge how small the customer bases are.

Too bad you can't peek at the books. It's the only way to judge the quality of your guesses based on tiny slices of random observation and heaping helpings of assumption.

posted by justread on Jun 20, 2013 at 12:53:59 pm     #   2 people liked this

One thing people tend to miss about the HUP is that energy and time are under that relation. That means in general terms, the shorter a time you observe a system, the more uncertain in measure is its energy. GuestZero's Law of socio-economics says that this happens when Liberals flee urban areas. The system left behind is only observed in short stints, leaving its economic energy in an uncertain state. Not knowing the real answers, they just decide on whatever number that pleases them. But I've spent the time observing, so my results are fairly confident. Toledo's economy energy is a very low number. As Liberal space stretched, the energy density plummeted, until a very sensitive instrument was required to detect the Cosmic Money Background Radiation of the economic explosion of the early 20th Century.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 20, 2013 at 12:57:52 pm     #  

Justread said: tiny slices of random observation

Doubting the veracity of sampling would earn you a big fat F in college. Too bad nobody's putting you to the test, out here in Realityville. But the end products are still the same: Exhausted venues. Ruinous taxes. Trapped minority populations. And a permanent distaste for returning to the urban mode, by those who have the money to make constructive changes.

The dethroning of King Oil will make the forced return of Whites and other monied people, a fairly violent affair.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 20, 2013 at 01:02:32 pm     #  

Not knowing the real answers, they just decide on whatever number that pleases them.

Shouldn't that be in first person?

posted by justread on Jun 20, 2013 at 01:04:50 pm     #  

GuestZero posted at 01:02:32 PM on Jun 20, 2013:

Justread said: tiny slices of random observation

Doubting the veracity of sampling would earn you a big fat F in college. Too bad nobody's putting you to the test, out here in Realityville. But the end products are still the same: Exhausted venues. Ruinous taxes. Trapped minority populations. And a permanent distaste for returning to the urban mode, by those who have the money to make constructive changes.

The dethroning of King Oil will make the forced return of Whites and other monied people, a fairly violent affair.


Out here in Realityville, I am put to the test by something called "results."

My strategy RESULTS in turning $250,000 a year into $5 million.

I only converse with economic and business analyst wannabes as a diversion from actual participation in the actual economy.

posted by justread on Jun 20, 2013 at 01:30:50 pm     #  

justread posted at 01:30:50 PM on Jun 20, 2013:
GuestZero posted at 01:02:32 PM on Jun 20, 2013:

Justread said: tiny slices of random observation

Doubting the veracity of sampling would earn you a big fat F in college. Too bad nobody's putting you to the test, out here in Realityville. But the end products are still the same: Exhausted venues. Ruinous taxes. Trapped minority populations. And a permanent distaste for returning to the urban mode, by those who have the money to make constructive changes.

The dethroning of King Oil will make the forced return of Whites and other monied people, a fairly violent affair.


Out here in Realityville, I am put to the test by something called "results."

My strategy RESULTS in turning $250,000 a year into $5 million.

I only converse with economic and business analyst wannabes as a diversion from actual participation in the actual economy.

....you hiring?
:)

posted by endcycle on Jun 20, 2013 at 02:13:10 pm     #  

endcycle posted at 02:13:10 PM on Jun 20, 2013:
justread posted at 01:30:50 PM on Jun 20, 2013:
GuestZero posted at 01:02:32 PM on Jun 20, 2013:

Justread said: tiny slices of random observation

Doubting the veracity of sampling would earn you a big fat F in college. Too bad nobody's putting you to the test, out here in Realityville. But the end products are still the same: Exhausted venues. Ruinous taxes. Trapped minority populations. And a permanent distaste for returning to the urban mode, by those who have the money to make constructive changes.

The dethroning of King Oil will make the forced return of Whites and other monied people, a fairly violent affair.


Out here in Realityville, I am put to the test by something called "results."

My strategy RESULTS in turning $250,000 a year into $5 million.

I only converse with economic and business analyst wannabes as a diversion from actual participation in the actual economy.

....you hiring?
:)

No, you see, he is too busy and has to be at the gym in 26 minutes, and after that he will be at the Heritage Foundation meeting, and then it's time for drinks with the cabal that will decide the next month's themes for talk radio and Fox News about how we should kiss the feet of the Almighty Job Creators and how if only we peons work hard enough for less money and remove regulations on businesses owned by them and give them tax cuts, the wealth will magically trickle down upon us... never mind that if trickle-down actually worked, the wealth gap would not be increasing....

posted by anonymouscoward on Jun 21, 2013 at 12:15:24 am     #  

endcycle posted at 02:13:10 PM on Jun 20, 2013:
justread posted at 01:30:50 PM on Jun 20, 2013:
GuestZero posted at 01:02:32 PM on Jun 20, 2013:

Justread said: tiny slices of random observation

Doubting the veracity of sampling would earn you a big fat F in college. Too bad nobody's putting you to the test, out here in Realityville. But the end products are still the same: Exhausted venues. Ruinous taxes. Trapped minority populations. And a permanent distaste for returning to the urban mode, by those who have the money to make constructive changes.

The dethroning of King Oil will make the forced return of Whites and other monied people, a fairly violent affair.


Out here in Realityville, I am put to the test by something called "results."

My strategy RESULTS in turning $250,000 a year into $5 million.

I only converse with economic and business analyst wannabes as a diversion from actual participation in the actual economy.

....you hiring?
:)

You were probably kidding, but yes, we are.

If you are looking for work, depending on what you are looking for, I may be able to share a few leads. If so, send me a pm, and I will share. I don't need to know who you are, just what you are seeking professionally. Maybe degrees, certifications.

I've had pretty good luck matchmaking people with jobs over the years, and it's something that I enjoy.

But you were probably kidding, and it was funny. :)

posted by justread on Jun 21, 2013 at 05:49:32 am     #  

I was at Bleak House yesterday. Can't really judge business as it was 5PM and they were closing, but their coffee was a bit on the high side and not as good as I had hoped.

I will say the decorations are nice though, if you are that type who ventures into coffee houses on a frequent basis (I am not).

Ate dinner at Blarney- good food as always, and business was a bit busier than typical at the 3:30-4PM timeframe I've been there in the past.

Did not see a single person enter Table 44 across the street, but to be fair, I didn't look out the window every second while enjoying my meal.

posted by someguy23475 on Jun 21, 2013 at 08:12:05 am     #  

Can I also suggest Durty Bird for dinner? Had lunch there a few weeks ago, and it was awesome. Met the chef on the last pub ride, and he was a pretty interesting guy. They're doing good work.

posted by endcycle on Jun 21, 2013 at 09:18:19 am     #  

I haven't been to Durty Bird to eat yet (several times for drinks, however), but I really need to move it to the top of my to-do list, because every damn review I've heard of the food has been overwhelmingly positive.

posted by Johio83 on Jun 21, 2013 at 10:27:26 am     #  

The new ownership has done wonders with it. Very awesome.

posted by endcycle on Jun 21, 2013 at 10:43:07 am     #  

I've also been told by sources I trust that Durty Bird does a nice job with their food service.

While I give them credit for trying to increase their business, at some point, Jominics must realize they are destined to fail in a dead zone.

I'm not sure if Bleakhouse is open Saturdays, but they were closed when I drove past today at 3:30.

Also, I doubt Black Kite Coffee & Pies will survive if their current lack of business continues. It seems that each time I look there are less than 5 people inside.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 22, 2013 at 05:14:57 pm     #  

Returning to the drive by business analysis method...total customer headcount @ Bleakhouse Coffee @ 12:15 and 2pm.

0

posted by 6th_Floor on Jun 24, 2013 at 03:02:19 pm     #  

Looks like Quimby's at 25 S. Huron St. was such a raging success that it's now up for auction. UPSO, this is your golden opportunity to join the Ownership Society! Dunno if you have 250 large sitting around, tho'. Maybe you can bid 'em down to the Easy Street Price ($75K).

http://jacksoldit.com/index.php?option=com_listbingo&view=ad&adid=125:25-s.-huron&categoryid=7:commercial&Itemid=101

"EXCELLENT Location! Within site of Fifth Third Field in Downtown Toledo. 10,296 square feet with 5,000 square feet of second floor loft/office space with restroom. Two bars with an outdoor patio. Do not miss out on this awesome business opportunity!"

Copyright © 2013 Amlin & Assoc. Auction Services

That's just wonderful: Not just a business opportunity, to own a beautiful empty building in gorgeous garbage-swept downtown Toledo, but it's an AWESOME one. So awesome that Quimby's hasn't been open every business day for, what, 9 months?

Not feeling the awe, here. Nor shock.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 28, 2013 at 04:28:57 pm     #  

Darn, I'll be out of town that day.

It doesn't say anything about being absolute, so the lowball offer could be rejected.

posted by someguy23475 on Jun 28, 2013 at 06:48:23 pm     #  

Quimby's didn't have a location problem.

posted by justread on Jun 28, 2013 at 07:45:42 pm     #   2 people liked this

Of course Quimby's has a location problem. It's located in downtown Toledo, where there are too many bars and restaurants already, as evidenced by their partially closed states. A real bar is open to 2am. The sidewalks downtown start rolling up at 9-11pm. Limited hours, limited days per week... these are just adjustments to the wholesale lack of business to be found downtown. They are not actually a new business model.

Just like being in a wheelchair is an adjustment to you being crippled; the 'chair isn't an indication of any real mobility. Quimby's equally so isn't a real business downtown. It's just too crippled by its location.

They should re-open it in Ann Arbor where there's still real business activity. Of course, Quimby's investment here in Toledo is wasted, but that's their problem. Nobody with spreadsheet skills and business sense should have concluded that opening up that place would work.

posted by GuestZero on Jun 30, 2013 at 12:12:30 am     #  

6th_Floor posted at 06:12:34 PM on Jun 17, 2013:

I'm not sure why I typed "Rare Finds" because the actual name is "Great Finds on Adams LLC." A second store also existed there named "Valentine Vintage" but it's also moving to Reynolds Road.

Bleakhouse is so dead and empty I saw an employee or patron sleeping there Saturday afternoon. LOL

Jominic's has added Saturday hours via their "Summer schedule." There wasn't a single customer there Saturday when I was in the area. Unfortunately, I don't see 2014 being part of Jominic's future.

I noticed on my bike ride home that there's already a new business in Rare Finds.

Also, there appears to be a nutrition business opening up at the corner of Michigan and Adams.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Jul 18, 2013 at 10:12:39 am     #  

Correction, Erie and Adams.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Jul 18, 2013 at 02:32:29 pm     #  

Which one is that? I know there are/were four antique stores on that block (three on one side, one on the other next to Manhattan's) but I don't know the names of any of them.

posted by Johio83 on Jul 19, 2013 at 04:22:39 pm     #  

Johio83 posted at 04:22:39 PM on Jul 19, 2013:

Which one is that? I know there are/were four antique stores on that block (three on one side, one on the other next to Manhattan's) but I don't know the names of any of them.

Two that had been on either sides of the record shop had closed. The new shop is in the space closest to downtown.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Jul 25, 2013 at 04:31:31 pm     #  

Quimbys auction today was a dud. The auctioneer opened the bidding at 200k and there wasn't a single bid.

Fwiw, the asking price is 599k and the owner has more than 2 million invested in the property and equipment.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jul 31, 2013 at 08:31:04 pm     #  

I also stopped at Home Slice for a few beers. $1.50 for Yuengling cans is an excellent price. I guess it's $1 on Thursdays.

It's definitely still a buyers market downtown and likely will remain such.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jul 31, 2013 at 08:44:19 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 08:31:04 PM on Jul 31, 2013:

Quimbys auction today was a dud. The auctioneer opened the bidding at 200k and there wasn't a single bid.

Fwiw, the asking price is 599k and the owner has more than 2 million invested in the property and equipment.

Geeze, I'm pretty surprised by that. It includes the liquor license and all of the equipment inside, right? Commercial kitchen equipment ain't cheap, I'd think that would allow a buyer to recoup a significant amount of that 200K bid.

posted by Johio83 on Aug 01, 2013 at 01:01:37 pm     #  

They weren't going to accept 200k even if somebody had bid that amount.

I agree 200k would be an awesome deal for that property. After being inside and looking around, I would have bought it myself if 200k had been a real price they would accept. I wasn't aware a serviceable second floor existed. It isn't finished, but there is potential to create residential on the second floor without outlaying much capital. Especially if the bar owner lived at the property.

The place probably will fetch something between 350-400 is my guess.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 01, 2013 at 05:45:08 pm     #  

Jr, since you've banned or restricted GZ's posting, how about allowing this thread again on the main page?

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 01, 2013 at 05:46:43 pm     #  

Nolan, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that "Nutrition City" business to open on Adams across from what used to be Weekdays Diner.

The next time you pass the building, look inside. The inside is still absent any real activity, the walls aren't finished and it appears just as it has for the past 5 or so years.

"Coming soon" of course is subjective, but I'm sure their soon is much further into the future than most folks' definition.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 02, 2013 at 02:18:51 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 02:18:51 PM on Aug 02, 2013:

Nolan, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that "Nutrition City" business to open on Adams across from what used to be Weekdays Diner.

The next time you pass the building, look inside. The inside is still absent any real activity, the walls aren't finished and it appears just as it has for the past 5 or so years.

"Coming soon" of course is subjective, but I'm sure their soon is much further into the future than most folks' definition.

This is very true. Just pointing out the sign.
Walked by Wesley's. Someone seemed to be working inside the adjacent building with the smoking cats and Toledo Loves Love mural.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Aug 06, 2013 at 09:03:55 pm     #  

yeah. I heard some sort of theater type thing was going into that building nolan.

6th... i thought the nutritional shake place was going into the building that used to house toledo blueprint, on the adams side?

as for the quimby's auction, i'm not surprised no one bit. The building is amazing and would certainly be a steal @200k. Major problem is there is ZERO parking. No lot, only paid next door.

That's not as big of a deal if you want to open an evening only restaurant, but lunch for a building that big? Everyone drives downtown during lunch. You need a parking lot.

Someone should really buy that place and make it 100% residential.

posted by upso on Aug 07, 2013 at 03:47:00 pm     #  

Upso, I thought Easy Street has a parking lot behind the building?

posted by stooks on Aug 07, 2013 at 04:16:37 pm     #  

stooks posted at 04:16:37 PM on Aug 07, 2013:

Upso, I thought Easy Street has a parking lot behind the building?

He was referencing the old Quimby's location, which is on Huron. There are private lots next to and behind it, but you must pay in both lots. I think it would be a good investment for the next owner of that building to pay something up front or monthly in order to validate parking for their customers.

posted by clt212 on Aug 07, 2013 at 04:40:59 pm     #  

Ohhh Okay! Sorry was just going by the title of this thread! Yeah.

posted by stooks on Aug 07, 2013 at 04:44:03 pm     #  

upso posted at 03:47:00 PM on Aug 07, 2013:

yeah. I heard some sort of theater type thing was going into that building nolan.

6th... i thought the nutritional shake place was going into the building that used to house toledo blueprint, on the adams side?

as for the quimby's auction, i'm not surprised no one bit. The building is amazing and would certainly be a steal @200k. Major problem is there is ZERO parking. No lot, only paid next door.

That's not as big of a deal if you want to open an evening only restaurant, but lunch for a building that big? Everyone drives downtown during lunch. You need a parking lot.

Someone should really buy that place and make it 100% residential.

I always felt like Quimby's large, open layout made it difficult for success. You'd need at least 100 people in there for it to be busy, and there's an empty looking bar is an easy turnoff for passersby looking for nightlife fun.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Aug 07, 2013 at 04:48:46 pm     #   1 person liked this

as mentioned before by many people... DT doesn't need anymore bars or restaurants at the moment. it's a bummer because it really is a stunning building.

posted by upso on Aug 07, 2013 at 05:11:45 pm     #  

<meaningless post to bump and help this thread reach the magical 1000 comments mark>

posted by historymike on Aug 07, 2013 at 05:24:37 pm     #  

Despite seemingly slow poking toward completion, it does appear that real progress is happening at Giamarcos place on Monroe.

Also, from out of nowhere, Table 44 has paid almost 7k of their tax bill. They still owe 22k but it's nice to see them finally reducing what is owed.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 07, 2013 at 05:25:54 pm     #  

yeah. you know i just read somewhere that they were opening up a banquet hall on the second floor. went to check online but their website is suspended and the FB hasn't been touched since 2011. yikes

posted by upso on Aug 07, 2013 at 06:16:54 pm     #  

historymike posted at 05:24:37 PM on Aug 07, 2013:

<meaningless post to bump and help this thread reach the magical 1000 comments mark>

Heck, I can get behind that.

posted by justread on Aug 07, 2013 at 07:04:38 pm     #  

upso posted at 06:16:54 PM on Aug 07, 2013:

yeah. you know i just read somewhere that they were opening up a banquet hall on the second floor. went to check online but their website is suspended and the FB hasn't been touched since 2011. yikes

You get a prize for using just read in a sentence. I'll look around for something good.

posted by justread on Aug 07, 2013 at 07:09:28 pm     #  

upso posted at 06:16:54 PM on Aug 07, 2013:

yeah. you know i just read somewhere that they were opening up a banquet hall on the second floor. went to check online but their website is suspended and the FB hasn't been touched since 2011. yikes

Yeah, the original plan for the building was (and still is, just over a much longer timeline) to have the entire building in use. The restaurant on the ground floor, banquet hall on the second, offices above, and even talk of a rooftop deck. That was before the Chop House ran into its troubles, and as everyone on here knows from the debates and threads on it, that one became quite a money pit for the ownership, so plans for further development of 610 Monroe were put on the backburner for the time being.

posted by Johio83 on Aug 08, 2013 at 09:02:50 am     #  

I realize the Hens have been away and return home tonight, but to be profitable, DT bars also need action on nights there aren't games...especially Thur-Sat nights. It has been very dead DT the last two nights.

Considering how great the weather has been this week, and summer is well into the back half, the DT bar scene was pathetic.

Johio, I think before adding a banquet hall upstairs, 44 should be more concerned with paying their already owed property taxes and increasing their slow business. They were closed before midnight Thursday and I saw maybe 20 people there last night around the same time. Ditto for Blarney Thur and Fri.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 12:20:32 pm     #  

I haven't been going out at night much over the past few years, but anytime I do, I stick to Adams street. Most Friday & Saturday nights in uptown are hopping.

I wonder how much of that has affected downtown's success. There are only so many watering holes that area can support!

posted by upso on Aug 10, 2013 at 01:28:44 pm     #  

Yeah, even though Attic isn't doing as well as it did pre-recession, it still sometimes draws good crowds. I judge how well Attic is doing by how many cars are across 17th in the overflow lot. I saw 2 cars there after midnight. I consider that sort of lame for a Friday.

Wesley's always seems to pick up during the summer months and it was pretty busy last night for Old School Friday. I ended up stopping for a few beers there myself.

Upso, the bars just aren't as busy as they used to be. I've been going downtown for many years and this week has been absolutely pathetic for the WHD bar scene. Most of them have been closed at midnight or sooner. I told a long time bar friend Thursday night that as dead as it is nowadays downtown, Thursday nights are about what Monday nights used to be like.

CnB had some action last night, but it's a small place and I've seen it much busier. It was the only place in the WHD that did much of anything last night.

Durty Bird's business lately has been "less bad", but they were already closed at 12:15 when I was in the area both Thursday and Friday (last night). Boar & Mutz...also dead.

Blarney & 44 were pathetic. Papilis really shouldn't even be considered part of the night time bar scene these days, since they close so early.

I'm sure they are hoping for and will see an uptick with a game tonight...we shall see.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 01:47:03 pm     #  

Also, I noticed this week that Mettler has once again sacked lunch hours at Cock n' Bull and now opens at 3pm...at least on weekdays.

When he opened, I think they opened at 11am every day for lunch, but quickly changed that to 3pm when the lunch business was weak.

He temporarily suspended lunch hours last winter, but I doubt this time it'll be temporary.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 02:00:06 pm     #  

I guess my question to the experts here is why are these places still open if they are doing so poorly? Businesses don't stay open if the trade doesn't support them.

posted by pete on Aug 10, 2013 at 02:55:41 pm     #  

Btw, downtown was very busy Thursday night with the art walk and all I the bars I walked by were busy, so I don't know why 6th would say it was dead...

posted by Brewster on Aug 10, 2013 at 03:32:48 pm     #  

brewster, I think 6th is referring to the later evening hours. We drove down adams street at the end of the artwalk on thursday 9ish, and the street was jammed packed with people.

I'm surprised Durty Bird isn't doing better lunches. I have yet to visit under the new ownership, but I hear nothing but raves about their gastro pub menu. But maybe that's the problem? Too pub centric for lunch?

I'm headed to the Attic tonight for a going-away party. Will report on it's liveliness if I don't get too hammered! ;)

posted by upso on Aug 10, 2013 at 04:50:40 pm     #  

Brewster the area may have been busy at "night" 6, 8 9 or 10pm while you were around, but I know it was a morgue after 11pm. A thriving downtown bar scene doesn't fold the tent and go to sleep before 11pm or midnight on Thursday nights. In fact the places were closed, so there isn't any debating their level of business.

Upso, I noticed Black Kite Coffee & Pies was already closed at 5:30 pm today. It seems I've seen them open later during prior months.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 06:26:56 pm     #  

Pete: I guess my question to the experts here is why are these places still open if they are doing so poorly? Businesses don't stay open if the trade doesn't support them.

Plenty of places HAVE closed.

And yes, sometimes they do remain open even if losing money. The Oliver House/Mutz has lost money EVERY YEAR since opening 20+ YEARS AGO.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 06:30:08 pm     #  

in regards to black kite, i'm surprised they are doing saturdays at all!

with the spitzer building's future in such question, i would have moved out a long time ago.

also, i noticed this morning that one side of the city owned nasby building's gross metal exoskeleton has been mostly removed. I'm curious if the city is doing it in anticipation of sale, or if the metal scrapers have figured out how to scale the building. It's pretty fucking cool to see the old exterior still intact.

posted by upso on Aug 10, 2013 at 06:40:19 pm     #  

BK's facebook shows hours of 10-5 but not sure if that's their Sat or Sun schedule. Regardless, I'm pretty sure they were open later into the evening on Saturdays during prior months. Eventually, a lack of business at certain times eliminates being open during those hours.

I checked out Registry Bistro a couple times before heading home and they looked very slow. Which was surprising since there is a game tonight and Blarney, 44, and Papilis looked busy.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 06:41:05 pm     #  

Upso, I'm talking about Black Kite, not Bleak House. I do realize it's easy to confuse the two. Both are tea/coffee houses which are most often empty, and operate in dead zones.

:/

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 06:43:17 pm     #  

YEEEESH my bad! i'm friends with both owners and continually confuse the two. The names are sooooo similar in my head! :/

Black Kite does change their hours throughout the season, from what i've noticed. They don't change their open times, but the close times change depending on day of week and month it is. That is a tough location for sure, especially with the god awful construction going on right now on collingwood.

posted by upso on Aug 10, 2013 at 07:02:44 pm     #  

Hey Upso, who are the dude with the goats in their yard on Collingwood? Putting aside all the doom and gloom from this thread for a second...that's freaking awesome!

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 07:15:48 pm     #  

agreed. that house is known as the "hoodoo" house. one guy ones it, but a bunch of people live there. in addition to the goats, they are doing chickens that are making some absolutely delicious eggs. they also have a skate bowl in the garage and often have some pretty huge parties there on sundays.

i'm really glad they haven't been razzed by the city for the goats. they sort of fall under a grey area as far as city code is concerned. Combine that house, with the "community garden" just up the street across from BK and we're finding ourselves in oddly hospitable times working with the city.

it should be noted, the community garden is on city property and is being run without their permission. pretty cool to see real urban farming taking place. (for the record i live 1/2 a block away from the goats)

posted by upso on Aug 10, 2013 at 07:35:36 pm     #  

Yeah, most afternoons I've been in the area, I've noticed 2 or 3 people usually working in that garden on the opposite side of C'wood across from BK.

I figured it was a group of hippies living in that hoodoo house. Especially when I noticed that van/rv parked on the property.

While making my rounds today, I thought about OneVillageisAwesome, who made a splash here before quickly disappearing. After he gave several hints, I ended up figuring out exactly where he lived on Summit. I hadn't been by there in a while before today. What a freaking mess.

OVA, if you are reading this...MOW YOUR FUCKING LAWN YOU JACKASS! Even with the Brad Nestor 4 council attached to your gate, you are bringing down Toledo and your beloved neighborhood with that mess. I guess with grass 2 feet high now, your upstart business of serving tea and dinners in your front yard must have stalled, eh?

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 07:47:34 pm     #   1 person liked this

some of the anarchists & hippies doing the garden, i BELIEVE, live in the collingwood arts center. i do not know them beyond what they look like. not my scene. :)

posted by upso on Aug 10, 2013 at 08:15:57 pm     #  

6th floor-I did a server seminar at registry last night, and am pretty closr with those guys. They don't draw much from the hens, but their midweek business has been strong. Their weekends have softened since the warm months, but that's not unusual for summer in this general area, especially any weekend with festivals. They are doing pretty well. If you droveby after black kite, 5:30ish, that's quite a bit before peak volumes. If you want a sense of max business-7-8 on a Saturday is a better indicator.

posted by ahmahler on Aug 10, 2013 at 09:24:38 pm     #  

Upso, I did some areis researching about various properties along that stretch of C'wood.

It appears that 2413 Collingwood, where C'wood Arts Center is located, currently owes 26,772.92 unpaid property taxes. They owe that much, despite having a large valuation reduction in 2012 and not paying a cent since 2010.

I looked at various properties along your street, and it's disgusting how many people haven't paid anything in several years as well. I'm really tired of timely paying my property taxes while others don't pay anything which causes the city to further reduce services.

If "homeowners" are bankrupt and can't pay their property taxes, the city should seize their property, sell it at auction, and force them to become renters. Then if they didn't pay their rent, the landlords would collect or evict them in a more timely fashion.

Ahmahler, Black Kite was closed when I was there at 5:30, so 7-8 on a Saturday wouldn't be peak volumes. Their facebook also shows them closing at 5pm on both Sat & Sun. If I'm in the area next week Mon or Tue around 7-8 I'll post what I see there.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 10:35:00 pm     #  

6th-sorry to confuse. I was referring to registry, not black kite.

posted by ahmahler on Aug 10, 2013 at 11:08:27 pm     #  

I'm well aware of the CAC's money problems. They have a lot of problems. Tons of problems actually. It's rather distressing living within eyeshot of the structure. I can see it clearly from most vantage points in my yard. It's in desperate need of new blood for their board as well as new blood for the director's seat.

I didn't realize there were so many other delinquent payers on collingwood. I'm with you, I pay my property taxes on time. I live in a world where that is the only option.

I don't live on collingwood, but in a neighborhood where all streets affect each other, I of course hope that strip can turn itself around.

posted by upso on Aug 10, 2013 at 11:08:36 pm     #  

i am surprised though, how behind in taxes any property owner can get in the city of toledo. houses, businesses. there is clearly not much enforcement by the city.

posted by upso on Aug 10, 2013 at 11:10:41 pm     #  

Thanks ahmahler, that makes a lot more sense. All I hear is great things about their food. If they can hang on for a couple more years, maybe they'll survive long term. It's a very tough business climate.

Upso, it's a problem along C'wood, but the street where you live has several people who haven't paid a cent and now owe more delinquent property taxes than their homes may be worth. Have a look for yourself when you have the time.

@ 2:19 of the video. I found Toledo Talk's very own socialite pounding a drink.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd7PPrNmhVw

I figure you also know the people responsible for that YT channel. Are they still in Toledo? If so, they do excellent work, but it has been a while since they uploaded any new footage.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 11:15:44 pm     #  

get out of here with that video! totally forgot about that. to be noted, that video was uploaded 3 years ago! :) right before we took over the restaurant. i would expect most regulars at the OT these days wouldn't know who I am. I go out a night or two a month at most these days and am always in early.

but yeah, the people responsible for that youtube channel also run http://www.toledo.com which is constantly updated. i agree, they do excellent work. shame they are based in PERRYSBURG! :/

as for my neighbors, to be perfectly honest i don't want to know how many around me are behind in their taxes. but at least on my street (winthrop) i'm not surprised. We're dealing with a lot of absentee owner rental properties. Heck, all over this neighborhood that's an issue.

sign of the times? i have no idea. I wonder how the OWE compares to the rest of toledo as far as property tax payments are concerned. I've never been late in the 8 years i've been here, but once again... I didn't know I could be! ;)

posted by upso on Aug 10, 2013 at 11:26:27 pm     #  

Poking around AREIS, I am absolutely stunned at the prices being paid for OWE properties post recession and post real estate crash.

Go to AREIS and search 2345 Scottwood! It's that row house building at the end of your block. They are current with the taxes there and they damn well should be with the rock bottom valuation.

In most major cities, that would be a million + property. As dumpy as I think Toledo is, it still has relatively cheap real estate costs.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 11:34:58 pm     #  

2509 Scottwood - purchased in 2008 for less than $4 per square foot.

SHAZZAM!!!

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 10, 2013 at 11:41:43 pm     #  

upso posted at 08:15:57 PM on Aug 10, 2013:

some of the anarchists & hippies doing the garden, i BELIEVE, live in the collingwood arts center. i do not know them beyond what they look like. not my scene. :)

It looked like a nice setup when we visited the garden during the Old West End festival.

Toledo City Paper article from last month:
http://www.toledocitypaper.com/July-Issue-2-2013/Atypical-anarchist/

The Occupy Garden is rebellious; Botek does not own the land, but he's using it anyway, without permission. City administration is aware of the garden—Botek received some wood from the  Forestry department for building flower beds—but has not asked him to leave. He guesses the land he occupies is too cheap or uninteresting to warrant a forced eviction. The neighbors aren’t complaining—they wave when he passes, and the auto repair shop next door hosts a rain-collection barrel for watering the garden.

posted by jr on Aug 11, 2013 at 12:05:47 am     #  

Blarney was absolutely slammed busy tonight. It didn't really spill over to 44, but Blarney had one heck of a crowd.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 11, 2013 at 03:17:36 am     #  

upso posted at 11:08:36 PM on Aug 10, 2013:

I'm well aware of the CAC's money problems. They have a lot of problems. Tons of problems actually. It's rather distressing living within eyeshot of the structure. I can see it clearly from most vantage points in my yard. It's in desperate need of new blood for their board as well as new blood for the director's seat.

I didn't realize there were so many other delinquent payers on collingwood. I'm with you, I pay my property taxes on time. I live in a world where that is the only option.

I don't live on collingwood, but in a neighborhood where all streets affect each other, I of course hope that strip can turn itself around.

as someone who once worked at and spent a lot of years at the collingwood with CTW, I have a soft spot in my heart for it. I wonder if I could get on the board if new blood is needed. Know any connections to throw at me? I'd be very curious to see how it's running and see if there's anything I can do creatively to help out.

posted by endcycle on Aug 13, 2013 at 12:14:11 am     #  

cock n bull was mentioned upthread about dropping lunch service - NOT surprised. I went twice for lunch, and easily had the worst lunch experiences I've had since our company moved downtown. Slow, very inconsistent food quality, lukewarm soup that tasted old, terrible service.... not a shock. I would get in and out of the always-slammed-blarney or always-insanely-jammed-like-whoa grumpys twice before getting cashed out at CNB.

If you want to open for lunch downtown, you have two major rules. 1: decent food 2: FAST SERVICE. Do those and you're golden. Witness: Weekdays closing - good food, slow service. I have 30-60 minutes, do you really think I want to waste 10 of them waiting on a check?

Downtown is tough, but completely doable if you're good at the right things.

posted by endcycle on Aug 13, 2013 at 12:19:11 am     #  

Endcycle, hit me up off site and I can get you a connection to the CAC board. They are desperate for new blood.

posted by upso on Aug 13, 2013 at 06:37:51 am     #  

endcycle, I'm surprised to hear that. I'm a bit of a regular at CnB, and have never had problems with service, or the food quality. Granted, I've never been there for lunch, and I always sit at the bar, so that probably explains the difference in service. As for the food, I dunno... maybe the quality goes up at the dinner hour, when they have a steadier flow? Would that make sense?

Also, I've never had their soup, so that could be part of it too. But hot damn, nothing in Toledo complements a couple beers like the Kell Bell Nachos with extra jalapenos.

posted by Johio83 on Aug 13, 2013 at 10:23:57 am     #  

Wait! I have to make a correction to my previous post. I did sit out in the porch area before a game last summer with my family, and the service was dreadfully slow. It was in their first month, and they were absolutely slammed with the pre-game crowd, so that's how we chalked it up at the time. But maybe there was more to it than that, from your recent experience.

posted by Johio83 on Aug 13, 2013 at 10:26:11 am     #  

to be honest, I think the issues were probably lunch-only. I've been a few other times well after dinner-hours and had no problem.

posted by endcycle on Aug 13, 2013 at 11:22:16 am     #  

upso posted at 06:37:51 AM on Aug 13, 2013:

Endcycle, hit me up off site and I can get you a connection to the CAC board. They are desperate for new blood.

Will do, need to get out to grumpys for lunch soon anyway. :) that, or if you wanna grab a beer at OT sometime next week after 5ish, let me know.

posted by endcycle on Aug 13, 2013 at 11:45:36 am     #  

God, I miss Andre's. Not downtown, exactly, but close enough, and the food was fantastic. What I wouldn't do for some of Doug's seafood bisque right now.

posted by Anniecski on Aug 13, 2013 at 11:58:41 am     #  

I'm game for a beer!

And yes, I miss Andres too :(

posted by upso on Aug 13, 2013 at 12:08:06 pm     #  

A couple weeks ago I went downtown for lunch with a couple friends. Initially, we went to Grumpy's but there weren't any tables, so we left. Yeah, I know they turn tables over quickly, but I didn't see any point waiting and since it was very nice, we wanted to be outside anyway.

Walking by, I laughed when I saw the sign that CnB cancelled their lunch hours (again). They wanted to go to Table 44, but after I mentioned that I prefer to avoid places not paying their property taxes, we ended up at Blarney.

The food was good at Blarney, but it did take the wait staff too long to show up on the patio. A customer from another waiting table ended up going inside to remind them several tables were outside waiting for service.

Despite not being what I'd consider "busy" that particular day, I thought the initial contact with wait staff was too slow. Fortunately, none of us were rushed so it wasn't a big deal. It would have been for people with a standard lunch time constraint.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 13, 2013 at 12:18:15 pm     #  

It's amazing to see how a few years of neglect can really tear apart a business.

Andre's was badly affected during the bridge construction, but Doug really let his staff finish chasing away the loyal business he still had.

I didn't go there often for lunch, but their night business really faded to nothing as they closed earlier, and earlier, until I finally decided I wasn't going to support a business being that poorly operated. It wasn't long until all the crowd I ran with there also quit hanging out there.

Nothing is more aggravating for me as a customer than being at a place where the staff is trying to close early, although there are plenty of people, even a crowd of regulars still hanging out.

Doug allowed his staff to ruin his business at Andre's.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 13, 2013 at 12:30:18 pm     #  

"Nothing is more aggravating for me as a customer than being at a place where the staff is trying to close early, although there are plenty of people, even a crowd of regulars still hanging out."

Couldn't agree more here. I think there's a problem across the board in the restaurant industry of management not expecting enough from the staff. I don't care who the owner is or how good the chef is, when I'm sitting at the table, the server is the restaurant's representative. If the server is bad, slow, has an attitude, etc, the rest of the experience is null.

Another big pet peeve of mine is when a server is ready to throw everyone else under the bus to explain away problems, or just plain ready to complain about their day. That is so damn unprofessional, and they might as well wear a sign that says "I don't care about this place, I'm just here to earn a paycheck."

posted by Johio83 on Aug 13, 2013 at 12:37:23 pm     #   1 person liked this

Anniecski posted at 11:58:41 AM on Aug 13, 2013:

God, I miss Andre's. Not downtown, exactly, but close enough, and the food was fantastic. What I wouldn't do for some of Doug's seafood bisque right now.

Agreed. I was a regular when my office was in Toledo.

posted by justread on Aug 13, 2013 at 01:14:37 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2013/08/14/Mickey-Finn-selling-pub-at-historic-site.html

Mr. Finn said he is most proud of the way the bar “put Vistula on the map. It’s the only residential neighborhood next to downtown” and “Mickey Finn’s gave a lot of pride to the neighborhood and it highlighted that North Toledo is not a scary place to go.”

Yeah okay, North Toledo and Vistula were unknown before Mickey came along. And if he really believes North Toledo, and especially Vistula aren't scary places for most people, than he is delusional. But then again, after I read the 300k asking price, I already knew that was his diagnosis.

Vistula was a dangerous neighborhood in 1998 and now it's much worse. The fate of this place was determined when Fifth Third Field opened.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 14, 2013 at 11:30:05 am     #  

The fate of this place was determined when Fifth Third Field opened.

Because all people who hang out in bars would rather hang out watching baseball? Really?

I used to stop by Mickey Finn's now and again (before marriage and kids, mostly). A couple of years ago, the hub and I were looking for some music one night and stopped in after a show. Instead of the blues we were looking for, it was a punk band and the house was empty.

When Mr. Finn left the management to others, the place went downhill.

posted by Anniecski on Aug 14, 2013 at 12:55:37 pm     #  

i'm really sad about finns. i played there a lot of times in a few bands and saw a LOT of very cool shows there. ah well. :(

posted by endcycle on Aug 14, 2013 at 01:15:01 pm     #  

Annie: I used to stop by Mickey Finn's now and again (before marriage and kids, mostly).

And obviously, others who "used to stop" decided to stop elsewhere. They all didn't stop going because they got married and had kids.

And the reason is many of those folks started hanging out at various places downtown, post 5/3rd field opening. Several bars east of Cherry along and near Summit have closed since 5/3rd.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 14, 2013 at 01:30:19 pm     #   2 people liked this

I dunno, 6th - the reason i stopped going was because better bands were being booked elsewhere mostly. They didn't do a great job booking that venue especially over the last several years.

posted by endcycle on Aug 14, 2013 at 03:13:07 pm     #  

Well EC, let's look a bit further than why you stopped going.

For many years, MF opened pre-noon and served lunches, so I don't think bands had anything to do with drawing that business. It also was open every day, so MF also had a certain amount of after work, happy hour type, customers. Additionally, MF did have live music and that drew in mostly the post 10pm late-night, Thur, Fri & Sat customers.

Initially, once the business dipped and Mickey himself wasn't around as often, the lunch hours were dropped, then when it dipped further, they completely quit opening sun-wed and that's when MF started only being known as a music venue.

Of course, most people only remember nearby Mugshots as a shoot-em-up-gang-banger bar, but also pre 5/3rd field and for many years, Mugshots was a pretty decent place to hang out. There's only so many drinkers with money to spend at bars, so as downtown saw increased bars opening, it sank the similarly themed "near downtown" bars in Vistula.

People in Toledo younger than 30 really don't have any idea how dead Toledo's bar scene is now compared to prior years. It's also why I SMH often when I read much of the bullshit about how great the downtown bar scene is today.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 14, 2013 at 05:58:17 pm     #  

The notorious "coming soon" sign swings and misses yet again.

38 St. Clair where "Fine Things Bistro" once operated was supposed to be some type of art gallery. However, now the "Opportunity/For Rent" sign has reappeared in the same doorway window.

With the Hens finishing their season next week and hockey season still two months away, which downtown business will be the next to throw in the towel?

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 25, 2013 at 10:48:18 pm     #  

As always 6th, we'll count on you to bring us up-to-the-minute information on any and every Toledoan who took a risk to pursue his or her dream and wasn't lucky enough to succeed!

posted by Johio83 on Aug 26, 2013 at 09:38:02 am     #   7 people liked this

[iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/pEItNTjzOJE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen]</iframe>

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 26, 2013 at 12:10:29 pm     #  

Johio, it's likely the art gallery individuals may have saved themselves a bunch of money.

Inevitably, reality trumps dreams.

posted by 6th_Floor on Aug 26, 2013 at 12:13:50 pm     #   1 person liked this

The former Xerox building, 801 Washington, sold for $1.03 million. Looks like Willis Day made a nice profit off the sale. I'm sure we'll hear about the building being turned into residential living spaces.

posted by odnation on Sep 05, 2013 at 12:12:41 am     #  

Any idea who purchased it?

posted by upso on Sep 05, 2013 at 08:06:30 am     #  

From what I have heard, it was Chinese investors.

posted by Brewster on Sep 14, 2013 at 03:25:31 pm     #  

Switching back to the thread's title, visible improvements are finally being made on the former Easy Street structure.

I'm interested to see what the final product looks like. So far it looks like they're cutting corners - the Washington St side has a portion of brick that is significantly bowing on the second floor and it doesn't look like they're going to correct it based on the work completed. If done correctly it should turn beautifully.

posted by idinspired on Sep 15, 2013 at 08:43:19 am     #  

idinspired posted at 08:43:19 AM on Sep 15, 2013:

Switching back to the thread's title, visible improvements are finally being made on the former Easy Street structure.

I'm interested to see what the final product looks like. So far it looks like they're cutting corners - the Washington St side has a portion of brick that is significantly bowing on the second floor and it doesn't look like they're going to correct it based on the work completed. If done correctly it should turn beautifully.

They've definitely been working hard on the inside for a while - I drive by every day on my way home, and there's always activity. I haven't noticed the exterior bowing, but I'll check it out when I get a chance. Hope it turns out well. Such a cool little building.

posted by endcycle on Sep 16, 2013 at 11:17:17 am     #  

If anyone was out at Wander the Warehouse District this weekend, the Berdan Building was open for people to go see. There really wasn't much to "see" so to speak, since they had about a 20'×30' space at the front entrance for people to go into and look around, but a large portion of the first floor was visible from there. Completely unrenovated at this point, but they did have floor plans for each of the levels set out for inspection. There will be 115 apartments (if memory serves, all were 1BR and 2BRs), along with 88 parking spots and 4,000 SF of retail space in the "basement." (The basement is actually at ground level at Huron St, since Washington slopes downward toward the river. That's the end that will house the retail, at the corner of Washington and Huron.

As of about a month ago, they were saying that they plan for apartments to be available by the time next year's Wander rolls around, and given how quickly they got the Triangle Building done, I don't think there's any reason to doubt them.

posted by Johio83 on Sep 16, 2013 at 03:23:22 pm     #  

Does anybody here know what the plans are for the area west of the Erie Street Market? That land has been cleared and some changes have been made to the road.

posted by 6th_Floor on Sep 16, 2013 at 09:49:22 pm     #  

_Also, there appears to be a nutrition business opening up at the corner of Michigan and Adams.

by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Jul 18, 2013 at 10:12:39 am_

And two months later there isn't any visible evidence that "Nutrition City" will be soon opening.

posted by 6th_Floor on Sep 16, 2013 at 09:53:38 pm     #  

wasn't that place supposed to be a shake diet shop?
is it related to these guys, also downtown? https://www.facebook.com/pages/All-Shook-Up-Nutrition/406661329373268

posted by upso on Sep 17, 2013 at 08:11:42 am     #  

"Does anybody here know what the plans are for the area west of the Erie Street Market? That land has been cleared and some changes have been made to the road."

I've been wondering that, too. They've torn out the curbs and sidewalks, pushed them back, and added space for what looks to be some angled street parking spots, which I see as a great thing to do along that stretch while they can. (I mean, if it's all just dirt right now anyway, why not add the street parking while it's an option?) But yeah, I don't know if it's like the road to nowhere over on the Marina District side, where they just put a road "in case" something happened, or if there's an actual plan for a building there. I know the area required a bit of remediation, but that's all been taken care of.

posted by Johio83 on Sep 17, 2013 at 09:10:37 am     #  

Not sure if this is still the plan, but this is what was said in 2011:

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2011/12/13/City-of-Toledo-to-raze-Plabell-Rubber-site.html

"The city plans to use the funds, from the Clean Ohio Revitalization program, to clean affected soil, remove asbestos, and demolish buildings on the site. After the cleanup, the site is to be developed into industrial space, residential units, and green space along Swan Creek. Rivereast Custom Cabinets Inc. plans to expand manufacturing operations onto the property and is expected to create five jobs and retain 25."

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Sep 17, 2013 at 09:44:31 am     #  

If we're talking about the old Columbia Gas site, Hull & Associate are building their new headquarters on that lot. Just confirmed with the Warehouse association.

posted by upso on Sep 17, 2013 at 10:01:27 am     #  

Oooooooh, I thought Hull was just handling the cleanup. Didn't realize they were the ones building on it. Awesome!

And Nolan, that's the property on the other side of the creek from this site. Everything from the Plabell site has been removed except for the Brewery Building, the 6 story brick tower that looks like there should be knights atop it shouting insults and questions about airspeed velocity.

posted by Johio83 on Sep 17, 2013 at 10:19:47 am     #  

Johio83 posted at 10:19:47 AM on Sep 17, 2013:

Oooooooh, I thought Hull was just handling the cleanup. Didn't realize they were the ones building on it. Awesome!

And Nolan, that's the property on the other side of the creek from this site. Everything from the Plabell site has been removed except for the Brewery Building, the 6 story brick tower that looks like there should be knights atop it shouting insults and questions about airspeed velocity.

Woops. Both projects got funds from the same state source, and I always confuse them.
The business desk had actually reported that those offices would be coming, but I think that story was two years ago.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Sep 17, 2013 at 12:11:52 pm     #  

Great information about Hull and the Plabell site.

posted by 6th_Floor on Sep 17, 2013 at 01:29:42 pm     #  

I spoke with the developer of the Easystreet project today and he says they're aiming for a spring opening.

Once they get the exterior work done they need to rip up the lot, build garages and also put in a green area for dogs. He seemed to have a positive outlook on the projects timeline

posted by upso on Sep 17, 2013 at 01:54:16 pm     #  

Yeah, I was doubtful of the E St end of summer completion date you previously posted. They're moving along, but it does appear they still have much to complete.

I went DT last night shortly after halftime of MNF game (about 10:45) and wow...just deadsville.

Of course, since it was Sun-Thur and past 9:30 pm, Papilis was closed. I was a bit surprised even Blarney and 44 already were closed, too. Durty Bird had the chairs up and were only waiting for a table of 4 on the patio to leave before closing. Boar had about 5 or 6 people, CnB only had 10 or less. Wesleys had 3 people which is disappointing because I used to watch MNF there. I don't know why I still bother to see how busy they aren't on nights not starting with F.

I eventually stopped at Frickers to watch the rest of the game. A decent crowd there, but definitely much less than usual for MNF...especially considering the Bengals and Steelers were playing.

It isn't a new rumor, since I've been hearing it for years, but I again heard 44 was adding a banquet hall on the second floor. I find it ridiculous they can't pay their unpaid property taxes, but somehow have the funds to add a banquet hall. It's a stupid idea, but so was opening 44 in the first place, so further stupidity there isn't shocking.

posted by 6th_Floor on Sep 17, 2013 at 02:19:27 pm     #   1 person liked this

The eventual plans are for the entire building to be renovated for various focuses. The banquet hall, a rooftop bar, at one point there was talk of a floor or two of office spaces. And I don't know how business has been there lately, but it certainly wasn't a stupid idea for them to open in the first place, as you've said. In the early goings at least, it was the cash cow of their restaurants whose funds were being used to support/renovate the Maumee restaurant. (Again, let's not get into discussions of ethics, in terms of diverting funds to the other restaurant instead of paying property taxes. "Not spending the money you make wisely" is not the same thing as "not making money.")

posted by Johio83 on Sep 17, 2013 at 02:39:54 pm     #  

Johio: And I don't know how business has been there lately

It ranges between not much and none.

posted by 6th_Floor on Sep 17, 2013 at 03:06:37 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Doug allowed his staff to ruin his business at Andre's"---

Toward the end, Doug WAS the staff, at least in the evenings. I got the sense from discussions we had he could not really afford a night 'staff', especially after Dode retired. Business bottomed out first, then the staffing went.

His main bar guy did his best to alienate customers at night, sampling the inventory himself, but this was way before the bridge construction, Fifth Third Field, and Huntington. Doug eventually cut him loose, but he'd return as a (sometimes) paying customer and hassle people after a few. He did Doug and the business no favors.

And yes, I miss Andres's dearly and hope Doug is doing okay. Saw him about a year ago at Barry Bagels and it was touch-and-go it seemed.

posted by McCaskey on Sep 18, 2013 at 02:04:07 am     #  

Doug is working at Stone Oak Country Club, and if you are lucky enough to be a member (or know one who can invite you for lunch or dinner) you can still get his delicious soups.

posted by Anniecski on Sep 18, 2013 at 12:22:09 pm     #  

Into what, exactly, is Easy Street being changed? I loved it when it was Kelsey's.

posted by Anniecski on Sep 18, 2013 at 12:23:44 pm     #   1 person liked this

Met the lovely Mrs Hoops for the first time at Kelsey's after a party in the park........I am OLD

posted by Hoops on Sep 18, 2013 at 12:27:04 pm     #   1 person liked this

Annie, it's becoming condos.

posted by upso on Sep 18, 2013 at 01:33:53 pm     #  

upso posted at 10:01:27 AM on Sep 17, 2013:

If we're talking about the old Columbia Gas site, Hull & Associate are building their new headquarters on that lot. Just confirmed with the Warehouse association.

Excerpts from a Sep 19, 2013 Toledo Blade story titled Work to start soon on office in downtown Toledo

The $6 million cleanup of a former industrial site next to the Erie Street Market in downtown Toledo’s Warehouse District is nearly finished, with officials who are redeveloping the property saying Wednesday that construction of an office building should start soon.

Hull & Associates, a project development and engineering consulting firm that specializes in brownfield remediation, purchased the 5.5-acre property from Columbia Gas of Ohio in 2011 with the intention of cleaning up the site and building a new Toledo branch office.

Hull, based in the Columbus suburb of Dublin, has Ohio offices in Cincinnati, Cleveland, St. Clairsville, and Toledo. The company says it’s growing in Toledo and employs about 40 people here.

Hull had several reasons to move from Glendale Avenue, including the desire to be downtown. But one of the biggest, Mr. White said, was that Hull wants to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

“We do this for a living,” he said. “We clean up these sites, and we want to have our office on a brownfield site.”

Total remediation costs approached $6 million. Of that, $3 million came from the state of Ohio through a Clean Ohio Revitalization Fund grant obtained by the city of Toledo. Columbia Gas contributed more than $2.5 million to the project, with Hull paying the rest.

Hull expects to spend about $2.8 million on the building, which will feature a rooftop solar array.


An architect’s rendering of a building that Hull & Associates plans to build on Erie Street, next to the Erie Street Market downtown. A rooftop solar array will generate part of the firm’s energy needs. enlarge image

posted by jr on Sep 19, 2013 at 11:09:11 am     #  

Is the architect Chinese?

posted by MikeyA on Sep 19, 2013 at 02:24:53 pm     #  

MikeyA posted at 02:24:53 PM on Sep 19, 2013:

Is the architect Chinese?

huh?

posted by endcycle on Sep 20, 2013 at 09:59:21 am     #  

A police officer who had been working detail security at Main Street Bar & Grill told me last weekend that MSBG, has decided to only open for "special events."

So, that sounds to me like another one has bit the dust.

That place was purchased earlier last decade after being closed for several years. The incorrect speculations were believing the Marina District hype and the casino possibly being located at the MD.

posted by 6th_Floor on Sep 23, 2013 at 05:58:34 pm     #   2 people liked this

http://www.toledoblade.com/Real-Estate/2013/09/25/Spitzer-Building-in-downtown-Toledo-slated-to-close-on-Dec-1.html

Spitzer Building is closing Dec. 1st, so it appears Bleak House Coffee & Madison Bistro are finished.

posted by 6th_Floor on Sep 25, 2013 at 10:49:49 pm     #  

From 6th Floor's link:
Mrs. Spitzer said the decision to close the building was made after a meeting on Tuesday with officials of the Lucas County Land Bank, which has been trying to take possession of the property.

She cited the costs in the day-to-day operations to maintain the building and the additional employees who were hired to comply with city fire code regulations as reasons for the closure.

I would have guessed that the reason was that it is a 117-year old, decrepit, scary building. But hey, fire code sounds good.

posted by justread on Sep 26, 2013 at 07:58:32 am     #   2 people liked this

have you been inside? it's actually in pretty good condition. weird for sure.
my wife had an office in there, until she got a different job a few months back.
sure, it's supremely outdated and empty, but the space was clean and cheap.

as for bleakhouse, i've been told they are going to relocate. this shutdown was a long time coming. i'm impressed Patrice stuck it out as long as she did. It was an incredible burden.

posted by upso on Sep 26, 2013 at 08:13:36 am     #   1 person liked this

I'd have to imagine the struggle for control of the building played a huge part in this decision. She's been picketing to take control away from Koray Ergur for years now, and it looked like it was actually going to happen earlier this year, until he filed for bankruptcy protection and stopped everything from happening. The prospect of it remaining in Ergur's hands (who clearly has no intentions to do anything positive with the property), or a developer who would actually take strides to improve the property...

posted by Johio83 on Sep 26, 2013 at 09:03:05 am     #  

upso posted at 08:13:36 AM on Sep 26, 2013:

have you been inside? it's actually in pretty good condition. weird for sure.
my wife had an office in there, until she got a different job a few months back.

sure, it's supremely outdated and empty, but the space was clean and cheap.

as for bleakhouse, i've been told they are going to relocate. this shutdown was a long time coming. i'm impressed Patrice stuck it out as long as she did. It was an incredible burden.

Yes. About three years ago, right after ABLE moved out.

It was my trip inside on which I formed my opinion.

Creepy. Dirty. Broken. Smelly.

Maybe I just caught the building on a bad day.

posted by justread on Sep 26, 2013 at 09:23:30 am     #   4 people liked this

as for bleakhouse, i've been told they are going to relocate.

I'll believe that when I see it. Bleakhouse hasn't looked like a successful business imo. However, they do have many empty locations nearby to choose among. Let us know when you hear about where it'll be relocating.

Maybe the empty spaces along the 600 block of Adams and 300 block of Superior will finally gain tenants with Spitzer closing.

posted by 6th_Floor on Sep 26, 2013 at 09:54:58 am     #  

What kind of adult thinks a building is "scary" or "creepy?"

posted by JohnnyMac on Sep 26, 2013 at 12:04:51 pm     #   4 people liked this

Wow.

What kind of an attorney can't disagree with a point without making an unecessary attack on the person making the point?

posted by justread on Sep 26, 2013 at 12:21:26 pm     #   2 people liked this

I can't wait for the 1,000 post on this thread. It should be a lot of fun.

posted by Molsonator on Sep 26, 2013 at 12:24:42 pm     #  

Sorry to see the old Spitzer building go, but nothing lasts forever. The place is over 100 years old and the cost of upkeep versus the rent is prohibitive. Well, that and taxes.

I kind of wonder if the building would be financially viable if not for city tax.

posted by madjack on Sep 26, 2013 at 12:48:55 pm     #  

bummer about spitzer. :/ i have a lawyer in that building that i absolutely love, did great work for me. one of my favorite toledo buildings ever - though I never, ever ever ever took the elevators. :)

side note: madison bistro closing sucks. good lunch. :(

posted by endcycle on Sep 26, 2013 at 01:58:39 pm     #  

I love how the Spitzer building smells of cigars. No smoking ban there!

posted by Molsonator on Sep 26, 2013 at 02:29:43 pm     #  

JohnnyMac posted at 12:04:51 PM on Sep 26, 2013:

What kind of adult thinks a building is "scary" or "creepy?"

Umm this one. Maybe I'm not as tough as you.

posted by slowsol on Sep 26, 2013 at 02:44:59 pm     #   1 person liked this

Sorry to see the old Spitzer building go, but nothing lasts forever.

Are there plans for it's demolition that haven't been announced?

posted by 6th_Floor on Sep 26, 2013 at 03:08:47 pm     #  

"The place is over 100 years old and the cost of upkeep versus the rent is prohibitive."

While it would certainly be an undertaking, I don't know that it's a lost cause. There are plenty of buildings in town that probably can only be restored if the owner is willing to take a loss (read: Pythian Castle), but I don't think the Spitzer is that far gone. Not saying it's a quick fix by any stretch of the imagination, but the Triangle seemed in worse shape than this one before reno's started, and that was apparently successful enough for them to take on an even bigger project in town just a year later.

posted by Johio83 on Sep 26, 2013 at 03:23:25 pm     #  

slowsol posted at 02:44:59 PM on Sep 26, 2013:
JohnnyMac posted at 12:04:51 PM on Sep 26, 2013:

What kind of adult thinks a building is "scary" or "creepy?"

Umm this one. Maybe I'm not as tough as you.

I assumed he was having a bad day, so I am giving him a douchebag pass and not suggesting that it was creepy and scary due to the clients of the bottom-dwelling defense attorneys who can afford to rent there, despite his inappropriate response to my comment.

posted by justread on Sep 26, 2013 at 09:22:16 pm     #  

The land bank has a long list of property to demolish or give away.

posted by EconCat88 on Sep 26, 2013 at 10:10:09 pm     #  

Since this seems to be the general thread for any downtown discussion:

http://www.13abc.com/story/23569292/promenade-park-redesign-begins-wednesday

posted by Johio83 on Oct 01, 2013 at 09:16:33 am     #  

Of course spending more than 2 million to upgrade another park in Toledo is wasteful, but it's election time and Mayor Mike wants to prove to Toledo voters he's "doing something." We already have too many parks here, so that money should be used for pothole repair.

I was informed that the right side of the building where Wesley's bar operates on Adams is being turned into a performance theater (which is what has been posted here) by the Mano's family. If that doesn't work out, it's going to be a bar and hostel.

The hostel idea is interesting, but I don't know how many backpackers drift through Toledo, so I doubt it'll produce a profit. It could just become another roach motel.

Other than CnB being busy last night, the WHD bars were dead. I don't think Table 44 had any customers at 11:30. They probably closed before midnight. The talk about them opening a banquet hall upstairs is hot air in my opinion and won't happen. It's been an ongoing rumor since they opened.

Giamarcos restaurant is taking an awfully long time. I'm sure after seeing the lack of business at 44, they realize it's going to burn more cash than a fireplace anyway. Does anybody have an expected date for their opening? I've heard they are bailing out, but read something about it opening in TFP or TCP.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 04, 2013 at 09:02:09 am     #  

Should have stopped by the OT last night and said hi, 6th_Floor.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 04, 2013 at 09:10:52 am     #  

I wonder how long it will take the city to cover the first floor windows at Spitzer with the fancy wallpaper so people don't as much notice the emptiness.

After Spitzer is padlocked, that intersection will have 3 of the 4 "skyscrapers" unoccupied.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 04, 2013 at 09:13:46 am     #  

Nolan, I do believe I've spotted you at Wesley's a few times at Wesley's during Old School Friday.

OT really isn't my scene, but I have been there maybe a dozen times and the bar certainly is successful.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 04, 2013 at 09:20:16 am     #  

"I've heard they are bailing out"

Definitely not the case. Spoke with Pat a few weeks ago, and while it's taking longer than he'd planned, with a lot more money going into than he'd planned, it's still moving along.

And you could have stopped in at the CnB last night and had a drink with me! Then we could have figured out solutions to all of Toledo's problems together!

posted by Johio83 on Oct 04, 2013 at 09:48:40 am     #  

Next time ask him for a estimated grand opening date.

My solutions for Toledo involve allowing the market to efficiently operate, but political types won't ever allow that...especially downtown. No bailouts or giveaways, owed taxes must be timely paid. Businesses should stand on their own or vanish.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 04, 2013 at 11:03:38 am     #  

http://www.knightinsurance.com/clientuploads/email_graphics/blockparty.jpg

Apparently this is happening on Saturday. I gotta be honest, I'm a little disappointed in their poor advertising for this. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention to it, but it's tomorrow, and this is the first I've hear about it.

posted by Johio83 on Oct 04, 2013 at 11:23:21 am     #  

I noticed the signs at Blarney starting several weeks ago. It has been very slow downtown since at least August, so maybe this will be a reason for people to show up and party tomorrow. I think they would have had more success waiting another 3 weeks for hockey season at Huntington, but if rain doesn't spoil the party, the temperature looks promising.

IMO, if downtown was doing as well as many claim, there should be a naturally occurring "block party" along that stretch of Huron every weekend.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 04, 2013 at 11:28:27 am     #  

One of the proposed ideas for downtown in last year's plan has been to shut down the section of Superior St between 5/3rd and Huntington, and use it for that purpose. A pedestrian-only street that would hold regular events and street parties. Since it's only one block long, it's not an important thru-way by any means, and it's connection between the stadium and the arena makes it a pretty ideal spot for this kind of thing. I'd love to see that idea move forward. And really, how much can that cost? A few hundred dollars to put up the metal pole barricades?

posted by Johio83 on Oct 04, 2013 at 11:33:15 am     #  

(The pole barricades are the ones that can be removed in the event that traffic does need to use the street, and would still allow access to the Seagate Center's loading docks. Obviously, those are used at very different hours than street parties would require, so it wouldn't be an issue)

posted by Johio83 on Oct 04, 2013 at 11:35:49 am     #  

Since they're likely going to have off-duty working anyway, parking a few marked patrol cars in the road wouldn't cost anything.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 04, 2013 at 11:39:41 am     #  

Johio83 posted at 11:23:21 AM on Oct 04, 2013:

http://www.knightinsurance.com/clientuploads/email_graphics/blockparty.jpg

Apparently this is happening on Saturday. I gotta be honest, I'm a little disappointed in their poor advertising for this. Maybe I just haven't been paying attention to it, but it's tomorrow, and this is the first I've hear about it.

i had no idea this was happening and i co-own a business a block away
odd

posted by upso on Oct 04, 2013 at 03:28:12 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 09:20:16 AM on Oct 04, 2013:

Nolan, I do believe I've spotted you at Wesley's a few times at Wesley's during Old School Friday.

OT really isn't my scene, but I have been there maybe a dozen times and the bar certainly is successful.

I apologize for my dancing. Can't help myself.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 04, 2013 at 06:31:12 pm     #  

The advertisement read purchase your $10 block party tickets while they last. The tent looks almost empty. Without a late rush It looks like a money losing venture. Did any ttalk people attend the event?

posted by EconCat88 on Oct 05, 2013 at 08:18:55 pm     #   1 person liked this

I had a private party at my spot friday. When I left at 10pm it looked pretty dead.

posted by upso on Oct 05, 2013 at 09:06:58 pm     #  

Upso, I assume you know the owners at Mano's. How much longer are they going to remain open if their business remains as dead as it has been the past few years? There weren't any customers inside there tonight when I was in the area, and that isn't the first time I've noticed Mano's was empty during prime evening hours.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 05, 2013 at 09:47:50 pm     #  

Can't speak for Manos even though i've known him my entire life.
All I can say is that he owns a LOT of property in uptown, much that pays rent.
He also owns the ATTIC which is going strong....

he's got a diversified portfolio. He's smart. I wish him the best.

posted by upso on Oct 05, 2013 at 10:15:36 pm     #   5 people liked this

6th - Mano's does a pretty steady lunch business, and provides all of the food served at the Attic in the evenings. You would know this if you did more than just speculate while driving by. Anyways, are they all paid up on their taxes? When will you have your report ready on the top ten most likely to fail businesses in Toledo in 2014?

posted by brainswell on Oct 07, 2013 at 03:54:54 pm     #   7 people liked this

brainswell posted at 03:54:54 PM on Oct 07, 2013:

6th - Mano's does a pretty steady lunch business, and provides all of the food served at the Attic in the evenings. You would know this if you did more than just speculate while driving by. Anyways, are they all paid up on their taxes? When will you have your report ready on the top ten most likely to fail businesses in Toledo in 2014?

So what's your malfunction, Brainswell? Somebody piss in your Wheaties this morning? You got crotch crickets again or something? Cupid's measles, maybe?

The man made an intelligent, non-inflammatory comment about a business neighbor which included minding his own fucking business, something it sounds like you could do a little more of.

posted by madjack on Oct 07, 2013 at 04:26:00 pm     #   1 person liked this

MJack, he's one of many here who read this thread, but rarely post. However, they eventually cant resist posting once they've read enough negative commentary. It's just so difficult for them to accept the fact that many businesses downtown are struggling. As GZ used to mention, it isn't just that they don't want to hear or read it...they don't want anybody else hearing or reading negative commentary about downtown, uptown, or really any part of Toledo.

Brainswell, I see you're finally back in this thread with your whining bitch attitude. I'm not solely tossing out my observations from driving and looking around the area. Attic isn't my regular hangout, but I do drink there once in a while, along with a few other businesses in the area. I have eaten at Mano's. There wasn't a single patron inside Mano's last Saturday evening, and the upstairs wasn't busy either because it was around 7 or 8 I cannot recall now. Is Mano's open late (post 11:00 p.m.) ANY NIGHT? If so, when? Mano's business is struggling...accept it. It's not too difficult to see that. It isn't on my top ten to fail list (yet), for I believe it's being supported by the remainder of the owners' portfolio.

So, just deal with it Brainswell. No matter how many lashes you direct toward me, I'm going to continue what's happening or likely to happen via my observations. And from what I've been seeing since at least August, it isn't looking good for several downtown/uptown businesses.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 07, 2013 at 06:24:54 pm     #  

I know driving around and seeing things isn't considered effective for many of you here.

However, it does appear that "Nutrition City" finally is making further progress toward their future grand opening. I wish them luck.

Their opening should occur sometime near the closing of Jominic's Subs...a business across the street from Nutrition City that I don't expect to survive through half of 2014.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 07, 2013 at 06:32:45 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 06:24:54 PM on Oct 07, 2013:

MJack, he's one of many here who read this thread, but rarely post. However, they eventually cant resist posting once they've read enough negative commentary. It's just so difficult for them to accept the fact that many businesses downtown are struggling. As GZ used to mention, it isn't just that they don't want to hear or read it...they don't want anybody else hearing or reading negative commentary about downtown, uptown, or really any part of Toledo.

Brainswell, I see you're finally back in this thread with your whining bitch attitude. I'm not solely tossing out my observations from driving and looking around the area. Attic isn't my regular hangout, but I do drink there once in a while, along with a few other businesses in the area. I have eaten at Mano's. There wasn't a single patron inside Mano's last Saturday evening, and the upstairs wasn't busy either because it was around 7 or 8 I cannot recall now. Is Mano's open late (post 11:00 p.m.) ANY NIGHT? If so, when? Mano's business is struggling...accept it. It's not too difficult to see that. It isn't on my top ten to fail list (yet), for I believe it's being supported by the remainder of the owners' portfolio.

So, just deal with it Brainswell. No matter how many lashes you direct toward me, I'm going to continue what's happening or likely to happen via my observations. And from what I've been seeing since at least August, it isn't looking good for several downtown/uptown businesses.

I will say that I've found the Adams Street bars don't start filling up until about 10 or even later, and then get slammed out of nowhere. I can't speak to Mano's business, but the Attic is almost always full (sometimes too full) whenever I'm there.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 07, 2013 at 06:37:32 pm     #   1 person liked this

Nolan, I have always agreed that Attic does well. However, I've been around the area for many years and as busy as you've seen it since being here, it was busier during prior years.

What I think happens is people hear or see a place is doing well for years, and then falsely assume it's always going to remain busy.

Despite witnessing the car count and foot traffic dwindling for several years, I heard the same nonsense about Andre's, Main Street, Mickey Finns, Woodchucks, etc, before they finally closed. "They do a great, steady lunch business." And now the same type type of people are parroting about how well places such as Mano's and Michael's are doing, when it's obviously not true. I don't know if these folks have vested interests and want to silence any negative commentary, or are just ignorant and oblivious to current market conditions.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 07, 2013 at 06:49:15 pm     #  

Manos doesn't even have enough business to trust the freshness of the product. Brainswell has a swollen brain if he's debating whether or not Manos is a busy restaurant.

posted by EconCat88 on Oct 07, 2013 at 07:49:20 pm     #   3 people liked this

http://www.toledofreepress.com/2013/10/10/advocate-sees-opportunities-for-rail-in-nw-ohio/

I think now would be a great time to act on things like this. Between the development going on around downtown and in the Warehouse District, and the plans for the metropark to be created along the river in 2015, focusing on the train station seems like the next logical course of action for Toledo's future. The article mentioned the amount of private investment that followed the Meridian, MS project. I can only imagine how desirable the Great Lakes Terminal Warehouse would become for private developers if a project like that happened here.

posted by Johio83 on Oct 14, 2013 at 11:58:36 am     #   1 person liked this

holy shit, i just realized econcat88 is this guy
http://www.youtube.com/user/EconCat88/videos

posted by upso on Oct 15, 2013 at 09:04:35 pm     #  

Yeah, one of the great voices of our time. Reminds me of a lot of the great speakers through history, who were always saying "you guys suck, everything you do is wrong, just stop trying."

posted by Johio83 on Oct 16, 2013 at 08:42:44 am     #   5 people liked this

Since he is on here now, I will publicly call him out. Why would someone go to such lengths to highlight negative aspects of a city? Is he hoping for others to take notice and make improvements or would he prefer things get worse so he has more Youtube fodder?

posted by mixman on Oct 16, 2013 at 09:52:20 am     #   6 people liked this

I think 6th_Floor just found a kindred spirit.

posted by idinspired on Oct 16, 2013 at 10:20:32 am     #   1 person liked this

He's a great Toledoan!

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 16, 2013 at 10:56:31 am     #   3 people liked this

Johio, maybe you should contact econcat88 and see if you guys can put together a video with all your spectacular Toledo ideas.

Better yet, how about a lunch video at Jominic's. That will have to happen soon, because it'll probably be closing soon.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 16, 2013 at 11:34:59 am     #  

... line out the door last week (i want to say thursday?), according to a coworker who brought the last canoli to me (yay!). but that's okay. they still might close. you know, because Downtown.

posted by endcycle on Oct 16, 2013 at 11:59:11 am     #   2 people liked this

It's 1:30 today and jominics Isnt open, so why tell lies about lines out the door? Really? Ill probably be uploading a video about them going out of business before Halloween.

posted by EconCat88 on Oct 16, 2013 at 01:31:43 pm     #  

EconCat88 posted at 01:31:43 PM on Oct 16, 2013:

It's 1:30 today and jominics Isnt open, so why tell lies about lines out the door? Really? Ill probably be uploading a video about them going out of business before Halloween.

...this was last week, and a coworker. pretty sure I said that in my post, you know, in plain english and stuff. of course, she might have been lying in order to exaggerate the story of how i got the last canoli, but oookay.

if they close, i'll definitely be sad tho. :( rough location downtown (between whd and uptown? kind of a no-man's land in some ways, tho ranya's managed to survive beautifully) but such good food.

posted by endcycle on Oct 16, 2013 at 02:26:48 pm     #   1 person liked this

this is getting intense. Whoever claims post number 1000 wins the thread.

posted by hank on Oct 16, 2013 at 02:58:09 pm     #  

I am downtown daily and I have yet to see jominics busy. Jominics is very close to being added to the another one bites the dust list. Hard to believe they would close with lines out the door for lunch.

posted by EconCat88 on Oct 16, 2013 at 03:18:56 pm     #  

Thanks for telling me. I'll be sure to buy a sub from them tomorrow to try and help their business.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 16, 2013 at 03:35:52 pm     #  

EconCat88 posted at 03:18:56 PM on Oct 16, 2013:

I am downtown daily and I have yet to see jominics busy. Jominics is very close to being added to the another one bites the dust list. Hard to believe they would close with lines out the door for lunch.

OOOOO! I know how to play this game too!

I work downtown every day, and I have seen Jominics busy on many occasions. It is indeed hard to believe they'd close with lines out the door for lunch, but I also concede that it's entirely possible since, you know, neither of us has seen their balance sheets.

posted by endcycle on Oct 16, 2013 at 03:41:36 pm     #  

Nolan_Rosenkrans posted at 03:35:52 PM on Oct 16, 2013:

Thanks for telling me. I'll be sure to buy a sub from them tomorrow to try and help their business.

Wanna meet up for lunch? I'm gonna do the same. Anyone else?

posted by endcycle on Oct 16, 2013 at 03:42:08 pm     #  

They were open yesterday during lunch but closed when I looked at 3:30. Today I do not know if they were open for lunch but they were closed just after 1, so it is obvious tje business is failing. Post if they are open tomorrow and Friday as I may not be able to check.

posted by EconCat88 on Oct 16, 2013 at 03:46:49 pm     #  

i work downtown every day too. i head home at 2-2:30pm and jominics is always open with their sign/board out on the side walk. i make a point of checking, as this thread and website have made me concerned for their well being.

posted by upso on Oct 16, 2013 at 04:41:57 pm     #  

Did you see their sign outside today Upso? I didn't and I looked mid-afternoon a couple times.

They aren't going to survive regardless because they don't have many customers. The out the door lines endcycle posts about are ghosts.

If they're actually open tomorrow, we could double their usual lunchtime business if a half dozen of us met there for lunch. They were closed Monday, but that's sort of understandable (but a bad indicator) since Monday was a holiday for government workers. They tried to increase their business with "summer hours." Open Saturdays until 6pm and weekdays until 9pm, but it didn't increase their business and apparently they have entered nosedive territory and no longer maintaining their regular posted hours 10am-6pm mon-thur.

Jominic's will be finished soon enough if not already. They should throw in the towel, so this thread no longer has to read about imaginary lines out the door.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 16, 2013 at 05:15:09 pm     #  

It will be disappointing if Molsonator doesn't make post # 999, 1,000 or 1,001!

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 16, 2013 at 05:17:43 pm     #  

Regular hours are 10am-6pm Mon-Fri.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 16, 2013 at 05:21:57 pm     #  

i took a different route home today to run some errands, so i can not speak on today's signage

posted by upso on Oct 16, 2013 at 05:39:58 pm     #  

endcycle posted at 03:42:08 PM on Oct 16, 2013:
Nolan_Rosenkrans posted at 03:35:52 PM on Oct 16, 2013:

Thanks for telling me. I'll be sure to buy a sub from them tomorrow to try and help their business.

Wanna meet up for lunch? I'm gonna do the same. Anyone else?

Unfortunately I'll be putting together school board candidate profiles and some other jazz, so committing to times would essentially be me lying. Kind of a grab and go sort of day.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Oct 16, 2013 at 06:43:17 pm     #  

This is an immortal thread.

posted by INeedCoffee on Oct 17, 2013 at 01:04:41 am     #  

:( jominics was closed at 1215 today, no signs of life. Looks like they closed Friday after hours and haven't reopened according to a couple of people around there.

ah well. i really hope it's temporary - i love their subs.

posted by endcycle on Oct 17, 2013 at 12:35:19 pm     #  

I just want

posted by justareviewer on Oct 17, 2013 at 12:47:20 pm     #  

someone to

posted by justareviewer on Oct 17, 2013 at 12:47:39 pm     #  

hit 1000

posted by justareviewer on Oct 17, 2013 at 12:47:57 pm     #   2 people liked this

I also had time to look today during tje noon hour and It wasnt open. From make believe lines out the door last thursday to likely closed for good this week.....another downtown toledo business bites the dust. Rip jominics!

posted by EconCat88 on Oct 17, 2013 at 12:53:03 pm     #  

Endcycle you werent kidding about the last canoli there after all!

posted by EconCat88 on Oct 17, 2013 at 12:58:45 pm     #   2 people liked this

Their subs were good for the price and I'm a little disappointed to see them go, but it's not surprising. The service was ridiculously slow. I don't think I ever saw a worker move quickly, there was never a sense of urgency. At first I thought it was me, but then I checked Yelp and saw at least two or three other reviews stating slow service. I mean let's be real here, it's a fucking sub. Oh well, I'll just go to Romans that much more now.

Ok, 6th and Econdick88 can resume being douches now.

posted by hunkytownsausage on Oct 17, 2013 at 01:29:43 pm     #  

Damn, I was just in there for the first time last week!

posted by Johio83 on Oct 17, 2013 at 01:44:56 pm     #  

CRAP! I missed it. I will catch it 2000 though!

posted by Molsonator on Oct 17, 2013 at 03:25:21 pm     #  

If my advanced mathematical calculations are correct, and I have accurately applied Brouwer's fixed point theorem, it would appear as though... carry the one... EconCat88 was lucky number 1000. There's something extremely deflating about that.

posted by Johio83 on Oct 17, 2013 at 03:33:30 pm     #  

So justareviewer had the inner strength not to post 1000 after posting 999,998 and 997. Awesome.

posted by Molsonator on Oct 17, 2013 at 03:44:32 pm     #  

Fortunately for all of us who missed the mark, more and more projects are being undertaken downtown all the time, which means there will only be more establishments for us to debate, and more opportunities to post! Post #1000 took us a little shy of three years. I bet we can hit #2000 before 2015!

posted by Johio83 on Oct 17, 2013 at 03:46:55 pm     #  

Molsonator, I pondered the possibility that he just did the math wrong, but it does appear that he took one for the team and set someone else up to take the glory.

posted by Johio83 on Oct 17, 2013 at 03:48:17 pm     #   1 person liked this

I'm a true team playa

posted by justareviewer on Oct 17, 2013 at 03:52:08 pm     #   2 people liked this

He's like the John Stockton of message boards!

posted by Johio83 on Oct 17, 2013 at 04:01:17 pm     #  

I swear I just saw a line at Jominic's outside the door and stretched around the corner nearly to Cherry Street.

Maybe they were co-workers of Endcycle?

Another one bites the dust, but Jominic's never had a chance. I have some ideas, but are there any predictions from optimists here which business in the area will be the next to close?

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 17, 2013 at 04:32:01 pm     #  

I think the problem here is with social mores. Trying to publicly predict who is going to be the next to fail, or asking those who are friends with the owners of restaurants to talk to them about how they're doing, and then report back with the info... some people don't have a problem with it, but a lot of us do. For some, it's no different than predicting the outcome of a baseball game. For others, there's a personal side to it.

We're supporters of downtown, and in many cases, regular patrons of these establishments. There's a "stabbed in the back" kind of feeling to predicting their demise, even if we do feel it's on its way. 6th, not long ago, you asked upso to use his friendship with Manos to find out if they're nearing a failure. I have no doubt it's a very sensitive subject for Manos, and you're asking upso to exploit a friendship to dig up dirt, then report back to random people on a message board. Asking the owner of a restaurant when he thinks his business will fail is incredibly rude, and not unlike asking the parent of a terminally ill child, "So how long until you think he dies?"

So just because we aren't forecasting the failures that eventually come, that doesn't mean we're looking at things through rose-colored glasses, or that we're suddenly making excuses when they do happen. We're just being respectful to the people who are risking everything to do what they love, for better or for worse.

posted by Johio83 on Oct 17, 2013 at 05:03:12 pm     #   3 people liked this

It's silly to assume similar moral ground with predicting when a downtown business will close to wondering when an ill child will die, but you are entitled to your opinion and so am I. You've never cared for my tone here, so save the moral high ground lectures for somebody who cares what you think.

I don't need Upso to confirm what I already know about Mano's. I asked the question assuming he wouldn't say much negative about Mano's. I can judge that well enough with other contacts and what my own eyes tell me. Regarding the bars, a simple question to beer delivery drivers or distributor reps is better than the fluff most often posted here.

Here's a twist for you. Jominic's closure is positive news for many: Subway, JJ's and any other sub shops and other eateries in the immediate area. The money lost sucks for the owners at Jominic's, but they gained some experience and probably met new contacts while in business. Their sub shop closing isn't the end of the world for them or anybody else.

"Risking everything?" Are the owners dead? If so, then yes I do regret posting like I have about this. However, I don't believe that's the case, so their closing isn't any different than determining winners and losers at the poker table or on the football field.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 17, 2013 at 05:21:29 pm     #   2 people liked this

Don't straw man this. "Not unlike" is not the same thing as "identical to," so don't disregard the point I made. Same as "risked everything." Yes, they obviously will not die as a direct result of the restaurant's failure, but that doesn't mean they didn't risk their savings, their credit, years of their time, and their livelihoods in the hopes of success for their business. Please, either step your game up and argue the points, or just don't post a rebuttal that avoids them.

posted by Johio83 on Oct 17, 2013 at 05:33:42 pm     #  

Johio83 since you are so sad about downtown losing jominics you should have ate there sooner and more often.

posted by EconCat88 on Oct 17, 2013 at 05:36:44 pm     #   2 people liked this

This should "step up my game" as well as make my point very clear. IDGAF how much money or credit they've lost resulting from opening a business that was foolishly opened in a dead zone.

Is that clear enough or am I still too straw man for you about Jominic's biting the dust? I'm still baffled that it closed with lines out the door. LOL

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 17, 2013 at 05:41:12 pm     #  

So since 6th is concerned about Manos how about a Toledo Talk cash mob there?

posted by MrGlass419 on Oct 17, 2013 at 05:42:45 pm     #  

419 here's another idea. How about getting in touch with Jominic's and having one there tomorrow or early next week?

Surely they have some remaining inventory to sell, right? If enough TT people show up, it will be the first, and last, truthful out the door line at Jominic's. I may even shed a tear with Johio.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 17, 2013 at 05:47:30 pm     #  

I read a great industry article that basically says that every restaurant, everywhere, should, before they open, decide what will make them close and what that looks like. On other words, prepare yourself for the nearly guaranteed eventuality, that you will close. It's a reality that few businesses need to think about in such stark terms. Sometimes, great places close and crappy places stay open. Sometimes places close in sylvania, maumee and perrysburg, and sometimes place close in downtown. All this really suggests is, restaurants close.

Location, undercapitalized, something scandalous, death in a family, less fun than expected, etc. we don't know and won't know. If you don't think downtown is a good location for a restaurant, then don't open one there.

posted by ahmahler on Oct 17, 2013 at 07:51:32 pm     #   1 person liked this

Even the almighty Attic was dead tonight. I only counted 7 cars in the lot as I drove by at midnight on my way home.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 18, 2013 at 12:38:33 am     #  

ahmahler posted at 07:51:32 PM on Oct 17, 2013:

I read a great industry article that basically says that every restaurant, everywhere, should, before they open, decide what will make them close and what that looks like. On other words, prepare yourself for the nearly guaranteed eventuality, that you will close. It's a reality that few businesses need to think about in such stark terms. Sometimes, great places close and crappy places stay open. Sometimes places close in sylvania, maumee and perrysburg, and sometimes place close in downtown. All this really suggests is, restaurants close.

Location, undercapitalized, something scandalous, death in a family, less fun than expected, etc. we don't know and won't know. If you don't think downtown is a good location for a restaurant, then don't open one there.

This is a great strategy and I'm sure lots of owners of closed restaurants in Toledo had a breaking point like that in place before opening. The one thing I don't understand (on this thread and in attitudes taken by people I know) is the joy people get from the failure of others and wishing failure hits others. It's just a weird mentality that I don't understand.

posted by clt212 on Oct 18, 2013 at 11:33:33 am     #  

"the joy people get from the failure of others"
Completely agreed. It's like the people on facebook who seem to get more pleasure from a team they dislike losing, than their own team winning. Unless it directly results in your success (like your competitor closing up), isn't someone else's failure a hollow reward?

And yeah, I always get a chuckle that so many people point to the failure rate of restaurants as a litmus test for downtown's wellbeing. This is an industry that is often studied for it's high failure rate, with findings showing a 3-year failure rate of around 60%. If restaurants AREN'T closing, then the Wall Street Journal should probably get a reporter over here on the next flight out to find out what pearls of wisdom our citizens can offer for everyone else to model themselves on. I think a more accurate portrayal of the climate would be: is the overall number of restaurants growing? If the closures are outweighing the openings, then yes, it would be a strong indicator that things are not well. But if there is a net gain over time, how can you say it's failing? And I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but they have to be out there... has downtown not shown significant growth in the past two decades?

posted by Johio83 on Oct 18, 2013 at 12:26:23 pm     #  

http://buffalorising.com/2013/10/road-trip-holy-toledo/

An outsider's opinion of our downtown.

posted by Johio83 on Oct 18, 2013 at 04:17:03 pm     #   1 person liked this

Johio83 posted at 04:17:03 PM on Oct 18, 2013:

http://buffalorising.com/2013/10/road-trip-holy-toledo/

An outsider's opinion of our downtown.

Awesome.

posted by endcycle on Oct 18, 2013 at 04:36:13 pm     #  

I think my favorite part of that entire article was the comment section. As of the time I'm writing this anyway, all of the comments are either positive ones about our city, or concerns about their own (like "how does Toledo get to have that stuff and we don't?"). It's refreshing to see that significantly bigger cities have the same debates and struggles that we do, like how to get the community more involved, etc.

posted by Johio83 on Oct 18, 2013 at 05:25:39 pm     #   1 person liked this

Pizza Papilis has 2 tables at 930 and 1 person at the bar. The upstairs of course was closed.

PP was completely closed before 11pm. Miserable for a Friday night. Frickers also was dead, so we left after two beers.

Registry Bistro also was a morgue at 930, maybe 2 or 3 tables, and I didn't even bother looking again at 11pm. Absolutely pathetic for Friday night.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 19, 2013 at 12:06:16 am     #  

6th please let us know how Papalis is doing next Saturday.

thanks

posted by MrGlass419 on Oct 19, 2013 at 11:39:08 am     #  

I made two bets while at lunch today. 2 cases of beer to my one that home slice pizza will close before dec 31. 1 to 1 that it will close before 2014 mudhens opening day.

posted by EconCat88 on Oct 21, 2013 at 04:03:21 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/Keith-Burris/2013/10/11/Elephants-in-the-room-from-readers.html

An article about Toledo as a whole, but has a lot of topics frequently discussed whenever downtown conversations arise. The immigrant one is something I've thought about too, especially with Europe's PIIGS having such deep financial problems. It might be predatory, but wouldn't this be an extremely opportunistic time to have the mayor and regional growth people take a few trips to Italy, Spain, etc, and say "hey, are you looking to start up a business, but don't want to take the risk in a country teetering on the brink? C'mon over, we'll help you get started!"

posted by Johio83 on Oct 28, 2013 at 02:22:33 pm     #  

New "winter hours" at Pizza Papilis, effective October 28, 2013.

Mon: CLOSED (possibly open for special events).
Tue: 11am-9pm
Wed: 11am-9pm
Thur: 11am-9pm
Fri: 11am-10pm
Sat: 11am-10pm
Sun: 11am-9pm

So Mr. Glass, just how well did Pizza Papilis do last Saturday, that they now have decided to start closing at 10pm Fri & Sat nights. Additionally, they aren't bothering to open at all on Mondays.

I've been saying it for a long time...Pizza Papilis is BLEEDING money and they are attempting to stem that bleeding with reducing their operation hours. Closing at 10pm on Fri & Sat nights gives an indication just how lousy their business has been.

posted by 6th_Floor on Oct 28, 2013 at 05:50:39 pm     #  

That's upsetting news. You always criticize comments when people say they aren't surprised that a place has closed, but PizzaPapalis is one I'll say would be a huge loss for downtown. They make, without question, the best deep dish pizza I've ever had outside of Chicago, and are always high on my list of restaurants to take out-of-towners to showcase what Toledo has to offer.

I can see it making sense to close at 9 on weeknights though, since I really don't think anyone sees it as a bar. I would imagine saying 99% of their business comes from diners and not drinkers is probably a conservative guess. I can only speak for my friends and myself, but of all the food and beverage establishments in downtown, PizzaPapalis and Registry Bistro are the only two that we've never hit up just for a couple drinks.

posted by Johio83 on Oct 29, 2013 at 09:26:00 am     #  

The only times I've been to Pizza Papalis have been before or after baseball and hockey games. Great pizza and a good atmosphere. It's been packed every time I have gone, but like I said, those trips were either immediately before or after games. Downtown Toledo is just a tough draw outside of large events. From my distance far away from Toledo, I'm hoping that they stay open and am certainly not cheering for them to close.

posted by clt212 on Oct 30, 2013 at 05:34:44 pm     #  

Walked by the former Swank Gifts building and people were detailing windows. Said a flower shop was opening up.

posted by Nolan_Rosenkrans on Nov 02, 2013 at 09:41:20 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/Retail/2013/11/03/Food-trucks-provide-moving-downtown-dining-experience.html

I first noticed the food trucks a couple weeks ago. It's an excellent idea!

Let's see how the ol' "the more the merrier" downtown idiots feel about the added competition.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 03, 2013 at 01:31:31 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/Real-Estate/2013/11/07/Owner-blocks-tax-sale-for-Spitzer-Building.html

What a piece of shit. What the hell does this scumbag even want out of this? Just pack up and go the F home already.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 07, 2013 at 09:55:28 am     #  

Anybody know what's going on with the Nasby building? I know the city got grants to do asbestos removal a couple years ago, and around that time they'd pulled a few of the panels off to monitor the condition of the facade behind it, but that was it. Then I noticed the other day that a ton of the panels have been removed on the Madison Ave side. This is one of those amazingly mindblowing buildings in downtown that backs up my belief that, despite great artistic contributions to music, the 50's and 60's were the worst architectural period on record. "Hey, we have an incredibly detailed, beautiful building. Let's cover that up with some panels and streamline it!" Anyway, anybody know anything?

posted by Johio83 on Nov 08, 2013 at 11:33:11 am     #  

http://www.toledofreepress.com/2013/11/08/media-watch-dear-mike-collins/

I love the tech sector idea in downtown. I think that would be a brilliant move. Despite what some on here believe, the national reality is that young professionals view urban downtown areas in a very positive light. Promoting a tech area, which is a job field that is strongly young person oriented, in the middle of our downtown would be a great way to create a little synergy there.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 08, 2013 at 05:11:40 pm     #  

The money bleeding continues.

At 9:15 tonight, Durty Bird already was closed. Table 44 didn't have a single customer. Blarney had 1 customer and already had the "last call" lights turned on.

These places are dead although one of their primary competitors, Pizza Papilis is closed Mondays until next Spring.

Monday Night Football and nothing.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 11, 2013 at 11:19:40 pm     #  

It was also the first snowstorm (relatively speaking, anyway) of the year, so I wouldn't really use it as a barometer. I would bet every place in town had lower-than-expected crowds.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 12, 2013 at 10:01:48 am     #  

In light of today's Blade article:
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2013/11/24/EconCat88-Trashing-Toledo-one-negative-video-at-a-time.html

we can bump this thread that featured both Nolen_Rosenkrans and EconCat88 commenting and on October 15th upso had linked the youtube videos of EconCat88. So maybe once again it appears that the Blade has used the Toledo Talk forum to help come up with another article idea.

posted by sparky31134 on Nov 24, 2013 at 12:22:40 pm     #  

hey, so a couple of updates for downtown...

building across the street from Grumpy's that was most recently "Quimby's" has been purchased by a local reputable developer. Bottom floor is going to be turned into a brewery, and the upper floors will be turned into residential.

Also, across the street from Registry Bistro, a wine bar is set to open! So, more places to drink downtown! ;)

As the berdan building is set to open in a year or so, with 100+ residential units available and some commercial leases for the first floor already set, it's looking like downtown may be seeing an upswing in warm bodies in the next couple of years.

Hope the market can handle it!

posted by upso on Nov 25, 2013 at 09:52:22 am     #  

Awesome, is it Black Cloister? They announced they'd be opening near the ballpark, and I've had a hunch that was the spot!

posted by Johio83 on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:09:25 am     #  

Also, about the warm bodies, just felt the need to report that I was at the Cock & Bull on Saturday. Got there at 6:30, and it was packed. The table in the far corner by the kitchen entrance was the only open table, where we set up shop to watch for open chairs at the bar. We managed to find a couple open seats at the bar after a while (our preferred spot when watching football), and the crowd just never dwindled. It just seemed to fill more and more as the night went on, and by the time we left (a little after midnight) it was more jammed in there than I've ever seen it. I don't know what things were like at other bars, but I've never seen it so packed in there, and I'm a regular. Considering how bitterly cold it was that night, I'm impressed. And I'm hoping it wasn't just a fluke.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:18:00 am     #  

yeah. it's black cloister

also, don't forget about the upcoming mudhens development.
lots of crazy things happening downtown. beyond the sadness that is the nasby/nicolas/spitzer intersection and the stupid fiberglass tower, things are looking up!

btw.. why isn't this thread showing up on the main page anymore?

posted by upso on Nov 25, 2013 at 11:33:04 am     #   1 person liked this

ya know, I've noticed that too sometimes, but there doesn't seem to be rhyme or reason to it. Sometimes it'll be there, sometimes it won't. The only pattern I've noticed is that it tends to disappear whenever I've been the most recent commenter in the thread, so I don't know if there's some kind of glitch happening where a poster won't see the thread.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 25, 2013 at 12:12:06 pm     #  

And to add to the positive progress for downtown, the five rowhouses going in at the old Easy Street Café (especially poignant, considering the title of this thread!) should be an excellent addition to the area. I think one of the greatest assets of downtown is how unique everything is, and those will only add to that charm. One of those "you won't find anything else like this in the city" kind of places.

And there are also a couple different people renovating buildings in the area across the street from the Erie Street Market, near Chucks and Rohr's and all that. And the new Hull & Associates building on the other side of the market should help in the build-up of the area.

As many have stated, there is no silver bullet to fixing downtown. It's the masses of little things going on that keep downtown moving forward, and keep making it a better place. To borrow from Warren Buffet's mantra, it's usually the series of small steps we take more than the big hurdles we overcome that define real progress. There have been hiccups and hangups, but at the end of the day, there continue to be more success stories and projects undertaken than the year before, and that's how progress works.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 25, 2013 at 12:37:02 pm     #   1 person liked this

"Also, across the street from Registry Bistro, a wine bar is set to open! So, more places to drink downtown!"

I think that is awesome news. I've always thought that that strip should be turned into an upscale area. The Commodore Perry and Secor hotel ground floors could certainly make great venues for high end places (with Registry Bistro obviously being one already), and it would be a great "destination" spot to be able to choose from a number of equally trendy/haute cuisine options.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 25, 2013 at 12:48:44 pm     #  

"btw.. why isn't this thread showing up on the main page anymore?"

Fine. I'll put it back on the front page.

posted by jr on Nov 25, 2013 at 12:54:24 pm     #   2 people liked this

Thanks Jr!

posted by upso on Nov 25, 2013 at 02:51:05 pm     #   1 person liked this

This thread belongs on the front page.

posted by EconCat88 on Nov 25, 2013 at 02:57:46 pm     #  

Still waiting on, say, Trader Joe's in the ESM or whatever.

All those warm bodies are one thing, having something more than Qwik-E-Mart nearby for shopping is another.

posted by anonymouscoward on Nov 25, 2013 at 06:29:46 pm     #  

agreed. Once the Berdan building is renovated and occupied, I could see some grocers looking to downtown but I don't think we're there any time soon and I don't think it'll ever be TJ's

posted by upso on Nov 25, 2013 at 06:36:14 pm     #  

Yes, a grocery store is the goal, but warm bodies are the way that happens. When a kid is in college, you don't say "hey, I don't care about all these credit hours you keep talking about, you should just get a degree and be done with it." It's not like downtowners aren't fully aware that a grocery store is important, but if it were as easy as just say "oh yeah, you're right, we should have one of those!" we would've had one already.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 26, 2013 at 10:03:31 am     #  

And also, while there isn't a Kroger/Anderson's/Churchill's/etc caliber store, it's not nearly as devoid of grocers as people make it out to be. People always talk about how you have to go all the way out to the mall for the Anderson's, or Glendale for Kroger, etc. But San Marcos has a grocery store, the Madison Market has some basics, and there's a SeaWay Marketplace on Cherry and Bancroft. Obviously, I'd prefer a Trader Joe's or something right in the middle of downtown, but it's not like there are no options without that.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 26, 2013 at 10:14:58 am     #  

Market at Cherry & Bancroft......that seems safe, said no one ever.

posted by Hoops on Nov 26, 2013 at 10:49:07 am     #  

i shop there often. super safe once you understand the lay of the land
some of the nicest checkout girls in the city of toledo

posted by upso on Nov 26, 2013 at 11:17:50 am     #   2 people liked this

^ truth.

posted by kaj on Nov 26, 2013 at 11:32:28 am     #  

Hoops posted at 09:49:07 AM on Nov 26, 2013:

Market at Cherry & Bancroft......that seems safe, said no one ever.

Is there more crime in that area compared to other parts of the city? Sure. But what about the many hours when there's nothing going on, like on a weekend afternoon? It's safe. People aren't just roaming the streets 24/7 constantly committing crimes "Death Wish" style.

posted by clt212 on Nov 26, 2013 at 11:41:39 am     #  

"Market at Cherry & Bancroft......that seems safe, said no one ever."

Also, it's located in downtown Toledo, where everyone knows you can't go without getting held up at gunpoint. Some people choose not to live their lives in a bubble.

posted by Johio83 on Nov 26, 2013 at 11:47:39 am     #   1 person liked this

Hoops posted at 09:49:07 AM on Nov 26, 2013:

Market at Cherry & Bancroft......that seems safe, said no one ever.

Huh. I've shopped there and somehow survived the experience filled with polite people and super cute families. It was a white-knuckle experience trying to pick up that gallon of milk though - all those kids holding hands with their moms on the way into the building scared the heck out of me. YOU NEVER KNOW WHICH ONE HAS THE SQUIRT GUN.

posted by endcycle on Nov 26, 2013 at 03:39:34 pm     #   3 people liked this

Mano's dark and closed at 7:15 on a Friday evening. Someone else please rush to post how well they're doing.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 29, 2013 at 09:29:24 pm     #  

grumpy's was closed today too. not crazy at all
lots of downtown area restaurants were closed this black friday
xmas and NYE both fall on wednesdays this year
so this was the only opportunity for a 4 day holiday weekend for staff

posted by upso on Nov 29, 2013 at 09:38:52 pm     #   6 people liked this

I stopped into the Bronze oar. About 15 customers there and the band moving equipment in. Cock/Bull seemed to have cars on the street. It's hard to say with just on street parking and trying to look into windows.

posted by pete on Nov 29, 2013 at 09:43:56 pm     #  

Walleye home game tonight...not many of those to pad the bottom line if they aren't going to be open for them.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 29, 2013 at 09:48:10 pm     #  

Highly doubt the walleye has much of an impact on Manos. Not being argumentative. Just sayin'

posted by upso on Nov 29, 2013 at 10:00:08 pm     #   4 people liked this

I understand and agree with you, but I'm sure there are people who believe Walleye games do have an impact.

posted by 6th_Floor on Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05:49 pm     #  

I'd like to see the indoor market at the Civic Auditorium come back. I shopped there before I lived in Toledo. Also downtown, kinda, is the Broadway Market (Broadway and South).

posted by wrongo on Dec 01, 2013 at 12:18:23 am     #  

I've never shopped the broadway market. What are the meat & produce like?

posted by upso on Dec 01, 2013 at 04:28:31 pm     #  

That store's produce and meat are geared for lower income people Upso. Very similar to the grocery store on Woodville near Navarre.

In other news, Shakin Street Records, Movies, and Games at 1505 Adams street recently closed. A sign in the window indicates they had a going out of business mid/late November. I haven't been downtown as often as usual the past couple weeks.

posted by 6th_Floor on Dec 01, 2013 at 06:08:01 pm     #  

Shakin street AND bebop in the Davis building both closing. Not surprised. Can't remember the last time I bought a cd or record.

posted by upso on Dec 01, 2013 at 06:28:24 pm     #  

I also heard BleakHouse is moving into the Jominics location on Adams. Hopefully, they'll have more customers there than they did while at Spitzer, but I don't expect them to.

December 1st earlier was announced as the day Spitzer would be closing.

posted by 6th_Floor on Dec 01, 2013 at 06:39:55 pm     #  

Yup, they are moving into the old Jominic's space. The young lady running it now has a lot of passion and is planning on an expanded menu. In addition to the expanded menu, it looks like expanded hours are also going to happen. My hope is she can prove that block is still saveable. Having the closed Jominic's & Weekday's next door to each other really reflects poorly on Ranya's and that block in general.

I've also heard some good things about the future of the spitzer & nicolas building but I don't expect that news to be public for some time. Regardless, the weather is as stormy as ever in Downtown Toledo and I wish everyone invested the best of luck.

posted by upso on Dec 01, 2013 at 09:08:52 pm     #  

Side note to Nolan Rosenkrans: Nutrition City remains at "Coming soon" status along the 600 block of Huron.

posted by 6th_Floor on Dec 01, 2013 at 09:55:36 pm     #  

*Adams

posted by 6th_Floor on Dec 01, 2013 at 09:55:58 pm     #  

upso posted at 08:08:52 PM on Dec 01, 2013:

Yup, they are moving into the old Jominic's space. The young lady running it now has a lot of passion and is planning on an expanded menu. In addition to the expanded menu, it looks like expanded hours are also going to happen. My hope is she can prove that block is still saveable. Having the closed Jominic's & Weekday's next door to each other really reflects poorly on Ranya's and that block in general.

I've also heard some good things about the future of the spitzer & nicolas building but I don't expect that news to be public for some time. Regardless, the weather is as stormy as ever in Downtown Toledo and I wish everyone invested the best of luck.

Ah crap. I thought she was moving into the space next to b-bop with the yoga studio and other boutiques. Was looking forward to that location, as it's across from my office. Ah well. I'll make it over there anyway.

posted by endcycle on Dec 02, 2013 at 01:32:34 pm     #  

That spot required waaaay too much build out. The Jominics spot has a kitchen and in theory more foot traffic and visibility.

posted by upso on Dec 02, 2013 at 01:49:52 pm     #  

Jominic's closed?

posted by stooks on Dec 02, 2013 at 02:16:05 pm     #  

Month or so ago

posted by upso on Dec 02, 2013 at 02:25:53 pm     #  

That stinks but I will tell you the couple times we ran in there for a "quick" lunch on our break the service was so slow. We waited like a 1/2 hour for our food the one time and there was no one else in there except for the group of four at our table.

posted by stooks on Dec 02, 2013 at 03:08:30 pm     #  

yup. I've heard that many many times.

posted by upso on Dec 02, 2013 at 03:32:16 pm     #  

upso posted at 12:49:52 PM on Dec 02, 2013:

That spot required waaaay too much build out. The Jominics spot has a kitchen and in theory more foot traffic and visibility.

Ah gotcha. That makes total sense. Hope they do well there.

posted by endcycle on Dec 02, 2013 at 06:01:17 pm     #  

https://ejmcewan.wordpress.com/2012/10/02/urbanism-sub-urbanism-and-why-im-tiring-of-the-streetcar-debate/

A big of a lengthy article about Cincy's streetcar proposal, but covers the fundamentals of urban living. My favorite line, that I think sums up the argument of pro-downtowners: "They are willing to invest billions of dollars in improving over-used highways and bridges surrounding the urban core, while neglecting characteristically urban transportation options which bolster urban life."

posted by Johio83 on Dec 05, 2013 at 12:53:14 pm     #  

(also, one of the commenters complains that the money could be better spent fixing the potholes in Cincinnati, which made me chuckle. It's the same debate everywhere!)

posted by Johio83 on Dec 05, 2013 at 01:54:58 pm     #  

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/companies-goodbye-burbs-004800326.html

An article discussing the nationwide trend of companies relocating into urban areas to be closer to where the younger generation wants to be.

posted by Johio83 on Dec 06, 2013 at 06:12:15 pm     #   2 people liked this

http://www.toledoblade.com/Medical/2013/12/08/Ambulance-company-MedCorp-shuts-down.html

They should be given first preference for one of the prized few section 8 openings when the Berdan Scam is completed.

posted by 6th_Floor on Dec 08, 2013 at 02:09:29 pm     #  

Today I uploaded a youtube video titled: welcome to downtown toledo, ohio - where paying property taxes is optional. Rosenkrans hopefully your employer will begin printing lists of Toledos worst property tax deadbeats.

posted by EconCat88 on Dec 22, 2013 at 09:24:10 pm     #   6 people liked this

I noticed today that Nutrition City still has the coming soon sign.

The newest EC88 upload. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqwqUI_Xolk

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 03, 2014 at 06:04:23 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 05:04:23 PM on Jan 03, 2014:

I noticed today that Nutrition City still has the coming soon sign.

The newest EC88 upload. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqwqUI_Xolk

Meanwhile, down at Blade HQ, someone's working late to write up the next "let's bash EconCat" article.

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 03, 2014 at 06:16:36 pm     #   1 person liked this

More hard hitting news from EconCat88 with no regard for accuracy or sanity.

1. There is not a 15 year abatement on The Bartley Lofts. You are factually wrong on the length of abatement. In addition an abatement does not lower the amount of taxes collected from a previous year it freezes the rate for the period of the abatement at the tax rate prior to renovation which will lead to dramatically higher tax receipts at the end of the abatement.

2. Your camera panned through The Bartley Lofts in the initial scene after the Berdan and you stated "as you can see a lot of them are are not finished even today" Every unit in your camera view is finished.

3. Your second camera pan of The Bartley Lofts you state "You can see that whole row on the end there looks like maybe 1 of the 6 were ever finished". When in reality only 1 of the 6 are unfinished.

4. Standart lofts you stated its about 60 to 70 apartments. It's 75

Your opinions as wishful facts.

1. The Standart has only been open 1 year so we don't know if it's successful.
a. high occupancy
b. they have raised rents
c. the owners are pouring 17 million as stated by you of their money into another project based upon the experience of the Standart.
d. the Berdan will not be their final downtown project either. So you can make another video saying the Berdan has only been open a year so we don't know if it's successful, but I'm sure this new one will be bad.

2. Lucas County is stuck with 5/3 field?

a. Stuck with a stadium that in it's 12 seasons have the 12 highest years of attendance in the history of the Mud Hens
b. Stuck with a stadium that they have been able to pay down their debt obligation on at an accelerated pace due to it's overwhelming success.

http://www.wtoc.com/story/13005864/commissioners-save-9-million-refinancing-fifth-third-field

3. Why do we need another 115 housing units when we live in a city probably in the top 5 in the county in vacancy rates.

a. Because rental vacancy rates are nowhere close to the top 5 highest in the country and average rents have risen over the last 6 years. So they're building another 115 units which are in demand.
www.census.gov/housing/hvs/data/rates/tab4_msa_05_2013_rvr.xls‎
http://www.rkgcommercial.com/toledo-apartment-marketview-report-midyear-2013/
b. Because people apparently want to live downtown as it has the second lowest Toledo district rental vacancy rate of eleven.
c. Because they have 17 million and they think it's going to make them money.

For such a free market guy you sure want to dictate where people can live, whether or not the location is what they desire or the housing stock is what they desire.

4. Subsidies? There is close to zero development that receives no subsidy in tax dollars. With the largest subsidy coming in the form of road construction and maintenance. Yes your home out of the core is a tax sucking subsidy due to the roads leading to it. Oh yes and any mortgage attached to your home another tax sucking subsidy in the form of the loan itself and the interest deduction.

5. Why don't they develop half of the building? If you don't know the answer you don't know development.

posted by MrGlass419 on Jan 04, 2014 at 01:36:18 am     #   12 people liked this

"More hard hitting news from EconCat88 with no regard for accuracy or sanity."

EconCat88 must be copying the tactics used by the for-profit media industry.

posted by jr on Jan 04, 2014 at 07:38:37 am     #   6 people liked this

If every apartment building downtown was forced rent at at market rates rents would fall and vacancy rates would rise. I dont believe all the bartley units are finished or occupied and the video shows that. Youre likely just another person who has some sort of stake downtown so while the rest of toledo crashes and burns you want to add living units downtown.

posted by EconCat88 on Jan 04, 2014 at 12:57:24 pm     #   1 person liked this

Has anybody recently heard the casino jas been deader than dead? It may be time to drive over there to get some footage of another one of toledos economic great hopes becoming another failure.

posted by EconCat88 on Jan 04, 2014 at 01:00:39 pm     #   2 people liked this

For the record, the bartley lofts are condos. Their website is incredibly outdated, but it was never market rate apartments. You actually have to commit and buy the unit, not rent it. http://www.bartleylofts.com/

The standart filled up so fast, and has remained to capacity for the two years it's been open because there is demand for that type of unit. Looking at their website, it looks like they currently have five units available. http://standartlofts.com/

As for the notion of people having a stake in downtown, and wanting to see it thrive... how is that bad or wrong? I live in the Old West End, and many of my neighbors work together to keep blight to a minimum and crime rates down. Is that wrong of us? Should we not be investing in the neighborhoods we live and work in?

Also, this is Toledo. Things move incredibly slow here. The ballpark has already been open a decade, and the berdan building has sat their crumbling the whole time. Only now is it being focused on, at the same time the St. Clair block by the ballpark is also being focused on. http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/01/04/2-revitalization-projects-put-on-city-s-wish-list.html

I'm excited to see the berdan building, and the st. clair developments take off. It's been a long time coming for the warehouse district. We're talking a few decades of small businesses opening and closing, the WHD association taking on projects to help beautify neglected areas, and along the way, these occasional giant development projects that help justify all of the efforts that have come before them.

EconCat88, I enjoy watching your ridiculous videos. I think it's good to call out the problems and not ignore the struggles and blight. Things take time here. Progress doesn't happen, and can't happen overnight in Toledo. It's good to keep us on our toes!

posted by upso on Jan 04, 2014 at 03:04:48 pm     #  

For what it's worth, the Veterans Administration used to own a couple units at Bartley. I don't have any idea if they currently do or not. That's hardly what I would name an owner occupied unit. It has been clear for many years that many of the Bartley units haven't ever been completed or occupied. If people here actually are trying to proclaim Bartley being a success, I'll gladly take the other side of that bet.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 04, 2014 at 03:09:28 pm     #  

While out and about looking for the next another one bites the dust candidates, I noticed Floral Pursuits (formerly Swank Gifts) is already closing prior to posted business hours. What's really telling is the place has hardly been open more than one month.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 04, 2014 at 06:00:04 pm     #  

http://www.toledoblade.com/State/2014/01/04/2-revitalization-projects-put-on-city-s-wish-list.html

Maybe Floral Pursuits will maintain their business after Napoli and his crew of crooked buddies blow countless millions more of taxpayer funds trying to create a Wrigley Field in Toledo.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 04, 2014 at 06:48:36 pm     #  

Napoli is crooked?

posted by justread on Jan 04, 2014 at 06:50:49 pm     #  

He doesn't necessarily have to be in order to have friends who are.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 04, 2014 at 06:53:53 pm     #  

6th_Floor posted at 05:53:53 PM on Jan 04, 2014:

He doesn't necessarily have to be in order to have friends who are.

Please share your proof. I'll even accept an anecdote.

posted by slowsol on Jan 04, 2014 at 06:58:45 pm     #   2 people liked this

Wow, I can't imagine what reason a flower shop in the Warehouse District would have for closing early the past couple days. I mean, it couldn't be the sub zero temperatures, or the foot of snow that buried the city. Clearly, the only lesson to be taken away from this is that no business can succeed in Toledo.

posted by Johio83 on Jan 04, 2014 at 07:31:08 pm     #   1 person liked this

It was a balmy 30 degrees today which is typical dec-feb so why post hours if they arent going to follow them?

posted by EconCat88 on Jan 05, 2014 at 01:21:53 am     #   1 person liked this

EconCat88 posted at 12:21:53 AM on Jan 05, 2014:

It was a balmy 30 degrees today which is typical dec-feb so why post hours if they arent going to follow them?

A lot of businesses closed early the other day due to the snowstorm. Why any of them post business hours if they're just going to close early once in a blue moon is beyond me.

<eye roll>

posted by dell_diva on Jan 05, 2014 at 08:08:56 am     #  

6th_Floor posted at 05:53:53 PM on Jan 04, 2014:

He doesn't necessarily have to be in order to have friends who are.

That makes him Jesus. :)

Kinda hard to be connected to Lucas County leadership without shaking hands with a corrupt person. But I always saw Joe as a decent guy. Was surprised to see randomly tossed corruption charges here.

posted by justread on Jan 05, 2014 at 08:40:31 am     #  

MrGlass419 per usual blathered: 1. There is not a 15 year abatement on The Bartley Lofts. You are factually wrong on the length of abatement. In addition an abatement does not lower the amount of taxes collected from a previous year it freezes the rate for the period of the abatement at the tax rate prior to renovation which will lead to dramatically higher tax receipts at the end of the abatement.

http://www.bartleylofts.com/documents/taxabatement_001.pdf

From Bartley's own website reads the following:

This abatement runs through December 31, 2018.

*The Bartley Lofts was issued a Community Reinvestme
nt Abatement (CRA).
With this CRA, real estate taxes for The Bartley Lo
fts are significantly lower than taxes
for comparable properties. *

I also searched AREIS and it appears that the units vary from nearly $0 taxes per half to $300. Less than what a non-homestead eligible person would pay for property valued at 80% less than a Bartley loft. The same type of scam has happened at River West Townhomes.

The beauty is that people who benefited from this ripoff bought a Bartley loft at or near the top in 2006, they are down more than 50%. It appears the current market there is approximately 100k and possibly lower.

It appears that Toledo real estate superstar paid 170k for a Bartley Loft in 2009. The property taxes for that unit are a whopping $8.69 per half.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 06, 2014 at 12:21:08 am     #  

Real estate superstar Justin P. Lorenzen purchased a unit in 2009.

Areis shows a total of 52 units at Bartley.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 06, 2014 at 12:24:45 am     #  

EconCat88

1. You can't even keep your own narrative straight. In your video it is stated that Toledo has gotten along the last 40 years without the Berdan being redeveloped, like Toledo is not going to survive if this does not happen. Now your posting that Toledo is crashing and burning? Which one is it, or do you prefer to play both sides when it is convenient for you?

2. I'm glad your feelings as you stated above override any sense of facts. Please let me know if the world is flat too.

3. You state "If every apartment building downtown was forced rent at at market rates rents would fall and vacancy rates would rise." It appears your hypothesis is poorly formed as the data runs counter to your failed insight.
a. Standart constructed 75 new market rate apartments and rates rose.
b. The Commodore converted all subsidized units to market rate. Rates rose and vacancy rates declined.
c. If's aren't reality.

4. You have no stake in anything? Are you an abject failure?

“He has a right to criticize, who has a heart to help.”
― Abraham Lincoln

posted by MrGlass419 on Jan 06, 2014 at 01:26:40 am     #   7 people liked this

6th floor-

1. Once again you are factually incorrect. The abatement is not 15 years. It wouldn't take more than a few minutes for anyone to fact check it by reading the current real estate listings or checking with the county. If you can convince the county to make it 15 years you might make 52 units very happy however. You're so desperate to be right it's entertaining.

2. Second fact wrong. "It appears that Toledo real estate superstar paid 170k for a Bartley Loft in 2009. The property taxes for that unit are a whopping $8.69 per half."
Apparently you know as much about real estate and abatements as you do development. There are two parcels and you've failed to adequately utilize the public tool AREIS in your search.

3. Third fact wrong. "For what it's worth, the Veterans Administration used to own a couple units at Bartley."
Once again failure to interpret data, as that would be that pesky second parcel.

Yes as usual MrGlass419 blathered facts that we wouldn't want to get in way of your dystopia.

posted by MrGlass419 on Jan 06, 2014 at 01:51:24 am     #   5 people liked this

What is the average amount of property taxes per 6 months for a Bartley loft/complete/full parcel?

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 06, 2014 at 08:26:09 am     #  

Last decade, The Bartley Lofts and the River West Townhomes offered 12- to 15-year property tax abatements. They advertised this info on their websites.

May 2008 comment :

From the Bartley Lofts features page :
  • Twelve-Year Lucas County Property Tax Abatement

River West Townhomes on St. Clair St. downtown :

  • Affordably Priced from $180,000
  • 15 year transferrable TAX ABATEMENT

The site says, "Pay no property taxes while you own your home."

The River West Townhomes tax abatement page compares one of its townhomes to a home in Perrysburg.

  • Perrysburg house :
    • Value : $223,600.00
    • Net Annual Tax : $3,724.95
    • Net Monthly Tax : $310.00
  • River West Townhome :
    • Value : $223,600.00
    • Net Annual Tax : $250.00
    • Net Monthly Tax : $21.00

posted by jr on Jan 06, 2014 at 09:01:10 am     #   2 people liked this

Seems outdated I pay more than that on my loft with abatment and it is valued no where near 230.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Jan 06, 2014 at 03:54:35 pm     #  

I wonder if anyone is out taking advantage of a dead downtown to get video ....if so stop in to Frickers they're open.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Jan 06, 2014 at 04:12:31 pm     #  

Frickers also remained open yesterday during the level 3. Which is also why it will survive and many of its competitors will not.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 06, 2014 at 04:23:37 pm     #   2 people liked this

6th_Floor posted at 03:23:37 PM on Jan 06, 2014:

Frickers also remained open yesterday during the level 3. Which is also why it will survive and many of its competitors will not.

It's just that simple.

posted by justread on Jan 06, 2014 at 05:13:25 pm     #  

In_vin_veritas posted at 03:12:31 PM on Jan 06, 2014:

I wonder if anyone is out taking advantage of a dead downtown to get video ....if so stop in to Frickers they're open.

I read on the internet that most of downtown went out of business yesterday.

posted by justread on Jan 06, 2014 at 05:14:06 pm     #   4 people liked this

6th_Floor posted at 03:23:37 PM on Jan 06, 2014:

Frickers also remained open yesterday during the level 3. Which is also why it will survive and many of its competitors will not.

wait. staying open during a snow emergency when people were legally not allowed to drive is a good business decision?

.... i mean, looks like my MBA is worthless. Seems like I learned at some point that when customers were legally not allowed to travel to you and that staying open put your employees at risk of tickets, arrest, or maybe possibly a slow death by freezing, the wise business move is to close.

Guess I was wrong. :(

posted by endcycle on Jan 06, 2014 at 05:15:18 pm     #   4 people liked this

justread posted at 04:14:06 PM on Jan 06, 2014:
In_vin_veritas posted at 03:12:31 PM on Jan 06, 2014:

I wonder if anyone is out taking advantage of a dead downtown to get video ....if so stop in to Frickers they're open.

I read on the internet that most of downtown went out of business yesterday.

Due to that damn overbearing government and its regulations, no less! Poor oppressed business owners!

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 06, 2014 at 05:15:53 pm     #   1 person liked this

You have proved here many times your mba Is worthless. Frickers has staff members living downtown and since you all never quit talking about the growing number of people living downtown, it makes business sense for frickers and other bars to be open. There also was football on all day. I stopped for food both yesterday and today.

posted by EconCat88 on Jan 06, 2014 at 05:34:30 pm     #  

hope you had fun

posted by upso on Jan 06, 2014 at 06:02:47 pm     #  

Hum it would be ironic if you were sitting next to me when I made the 1st post from Frickers

posted by In_vin_veritas on Jan 06, 2014 at 06:03:26 pm     #  

Veritas todays terrible weather is a great day for a well managed bar or small restaurant and the roads downtown werent all difficult to navigate.

posted by EconCat88 on Jan 06, 2014 at 06:10:00 pm     #  

The white chicken chillie hit the spot after the cold walk down that's for sure. One thing warehouse resodence will do for sure is go tothe bar when work is closed j/k

posted by In_vin_veritas on Jan 06, 2014 at 06:14:06 pm     #  

Veritas I just looked at my receipt. If you were at the bar, I was sitting at a table with two toledo cops in uniform and we left a few minutes before one oclock.

posted by EconCat88 on Jan 06, 2014 at 06:20:57 pm     #  

EconCat88 posted at 04:34:30 PM on Jan 06, 2014:

You have proved here many times your mba Is worthless. Frickers has staff members living downtown and since you all never quit talking about the growing number of people living downtown, it makes business sense for frickers and other bars to be open. There also was football on all day. I stopped for food both yesterday and today.

Ah good points all around. I didn't consider the workers might live downtown as well - my mistake. Happy to admit when I'm wrong!

posted by endcycle on Jan 06, 2014 at 06:56:43 pm     #   2 people liked this

EconCat88 posted at 05:20:57 PM on Jan 06, 2014:

Veritas I just looked at my receipt. If you were at the bar, I was sitting at a table with two toledo cops in uniform and we left a few minutes before one oclock.

WOW you require an armed escort?!?! Man you must really have pissed The Blade off!

posted by anonymouscoward on Jan 06, 2014 at 06:59:43 pm     #   4 people liked this

endcycle posted at 05:56:43 PM on Jan 06, 2014:
EconCat88 posted at 04:34:30 PM on Jan 06, 2014:

You have proved here many times your mba Is worthless. Frickers has staff members living downtown and since you all never quit talking about the growing number of people living downtown, it makes business sense for frickers and other bars to be open. There also was football on all day. I stopped for food both yesterday and today.

Ah good points all around. I didn't consider the workers might live downtown as well - my mistake. Happy to admit when I'm wrong!

Your MBA is just fine. You didn't have all the data. How many of us who don't frequent the place would have?

In general, I totally agree with your point on face. Not good business to keep your expense base up and risk your employees if your customers will be prevented from traveling. But if they are trapped there? Different altogether. I'm sure if you were in a circumstance in which you had food cost ticking, and a captive audience of workers and customers alike, you'd have been open.

Other similar situations would be hotel and airport bars/restaurants while people are stuck. I would open a bar under student housing in a blizzard, for example. A free standing joint out in the burbs? Hell no.

posted by justread on Jan 06, 2014 at 07:04:31 pm     #  

Yeah at the bar saw the cops walk out funny.

posted by In_vin_veritas on Jan 06, 2014 at 07:08:30 pm     #  

The cops walked funny? :)

posted by justread on Jan 06, 2014 at 07:13:24 pm     #  

Thank you for point out the need for useing commas......

posted by In_vin_veritas on Jan 06, 2014 at 07:59:18 pm     #  

there's a nightstick joke in here somewhere, i just know it.

posted by endcycle on Jan 06, 2014 at 08:41:55 pm     #  

endcycle posted at 07:41:55 PM on Jan 06, 2014:

there's a nightstick joke in here somewhere, i just know it.

Maybe they were just crooked. :)

posted by justread on Jan 06, 2014 at 08:46:09 pm     #  

Heading to Fricker's in a few minutes to watch the Auburn/FSU game.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 06, 2014 at 08:51:09 pm     #   1 person liked this

And how was it?

posted by Johio83 on Jan 08, 2014 at 04:54:28 pm     #  

I wish Brenda Body Shop would open back up, or the Venus Lounge. Hell I might call Tony Piroski and see if hes interested in re-opening the Penalty Box.

posted by tgarvin on Jan 08, 2014 at 05:10:22 pm     #  

I wish Brenda Body Shop would open back up, or the Venus Lounge. Hell I might call Tony Piroski and see if hes interested in re-opening the Penalty Box.

posted by tgarvin on Jan 08, 2014 at 05:10:30 pm     #  

I had lunch with a couple city employees yesterday.

OneVillageisAwesome, an idiot who made a quick splash here last May to bash myself and GZ, claimed he was going to open a tea house at his house in Vistula.

Well, I was informed yesterday that he did in fact try to get a permit last year, but the city denied the permit.

He left enough clues and I saw him illegally operating early last summer, so I know the location. Driving through Vistula a few days ago, I noticed One V Idiot has removed the iron gating that wrapped around the front of his house. He didn't mow the lawn from at least July-Oct and the entire place appears to be a mess. The iron gating helped give the house a unique look, but maybe he needed cash and was forced to sell it for scrap.

Despite bitching about others not paying property taxes, OVI hasn't paid in slightly more than a year and currently owes approximately $1,525.62.

So, despite all his piss and vinegar here talking all the big plans he had for transforming Toledo, One V Idiot has miserably failed.

I hope you are still reading this thread One V Idiot...you friggin loud-mouthed deadbeat.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 25, 2014 at 01:39:57 pm     #   3 people liked this

6th_Floor posted at 12:39:57 PM on Jan 25, 2014:

I had lunch with a couple city employees yesterday.

OneVillageisAwesome, an idiot who made a quick splash here last May to bash myself and GZ, claimed he was going to open a tea house at his house in Vistula.

Well, I was informed yesterday that he did in fact try to get a permit last year, but the city denied the permit.

He left enough clues and I saw him illegally operating early last summer, so I know the location. Driving through Vistula a few days ago, I noticed One V Idiot has removed the iron gating that wrapped around the front of his house. He didn't mow the lawn from at least July-Oct and the entire place appears to be a mess. The iron gating helped give the house a unique look, but maybe he needed cash and was forced to sell it for scrap.

Despite bitching about others not paying property taxes, OVI hasn't paid in slightly more than a year and currently owes approximately $1,525.62.

So, despite all his piss and vinegar here talking all the big plans he had for transforming Toledo, One V Idiot has miserably failed.

I hope you are still reading this thread One V Idiot...you friggin loud-mouthed deadbeat.

Based solely on his posting here, none of this surprises me.

posted by Foodie on Jan 26, 2014 at 05:48:42 am     #  

D&S Collabos general store and home furnishings, which moved into half the space Great Finds Antiques vacated at 1501 Adams last summer, is looking like the next DT/Uptown "Another one bites the dust" candidate. It has been closed every time I've driven past during normal business hours since at least Friday, Jan 17th. It was a bad idea from the start, so if it bites the dust before one year in business it won't be surprising.

Nolan, if you haven't noticed, across from the now closed Jominic's Subs, the Healthy Shakes place which has been claiming "Opening soon" for nearly a year, now has placed a now hiring sign in the window for Fitness coaches/instructors. If this place ever manages to open, I don't expect it to survive a full year.

posted by 6th_Floor on Jan 26, 2014 at 08:01:33 pm     #  

I wanted to post this here because it's another example how govt decisions impact businesses.

I was told yesterday that the city may change a couple blocks dt to pedestrian only.

1. The block of St. Clair btw Monroe and Washington where Frickers is located.

2. The same block of Huron btw Monroe and Washington.

I personally believe this would put Frickers to sleep as it would decimate their business on nights without a Hens game.

posted by 6th_Floor on Feb 09, 2014 at 01:28:57 pm     #  

Hmmm, in Cleveland, they closed East 4th to car traffic a few years ago. Now it's the highest downtown rents in the state. This may be partially due to the quality of restaurants on East 4th (Lola and Greenhouse Tavern, to name 2). Same thing for 3rd street in Santa Monica. Every time I've seen this done, it seems to be a draw. That, of course, is all contingent on parking options in the vicinity. It compels people to walk a bit, which feels like a downtown.

On another note-I though they were doing this on Superior between Jefferson and Monroe?

posted by ahmahler on Feb 09, 2014 at 02:00:45 pm     #  

That's also a plan (Superior), but no idea if it's anything more than an idea at this point.

As for the pedestrian only concept killing the business at Frickers, I don't get how. It's not like every patron in the restaurant is parked on the street outside, so why would this change things?

posted by Johio83 on Feb 09, 2014 at 02:15:08 pm     #  

Huron, I could see being a problem, since it is a major downtown thoroughfare. St Clair and Superior, however, especially at the discussed locations, are not. Superior doesn't serve much of a purpose there anyway, and St Clair is terminated at Monroe, so it couldn't change much in terms of traffic to close the street.

posted by Johio83 on Feb 09, 2014 at 02:24:26 pm     #  

Huron is the only contiguous north-south street left in that area (besides Summit). The ballpark and arena are great, but those and the Seagate Center have totally cut off vertical flow. If you want to get anywhere a couple blocks north or south, it usually involves some turns.

Instead of closing off one of these vital links - especially Huron - I think the city should start considering where they will put a future new convention center, and the benefits the warehouse and central business districts will reap by reopening St. Clair street. The ballpark and arena blocks will continue to be separate entities until there is a proper through street - with little businesses - that links everything together.

posted by mixman on Feb 09, 2014 at 02:57:49 pm     #  

What is EconCat88's agenda? He posted a video about The Elbo Room closing due to high water rates and the bad economy of Toledo, etc. However he never checked his facts and apparently made stuff up, One of the owners of The Elbo Room died and the other is in hospice - facts he could have confirmed if he would have just called the auctioneer. The fact is that the Elbo Room never made it to auction - it was bought before the scheduled auction, is undergoing some remodeling and will re-open soon. I posted this on his you tube site and he either doesn't care to check the facts or even delete my comment since it shows he was wrong. How much credibility can he have? How many of his other stories are not fact checked? Opinion is one thing, facts are quite another.

posted by Mike21 on Feb 09, 2014 at 03:16:34 pm     #   5 people liked this

Johio if u go to frickers on a non game night yes just about every frickers customer is parked on st clair.

posted by EconCat88 on Feb 09, 2014 at 03:28:40 pm     #  

Mike21 im considering deleting that video after reading your post. However regarding any particular "agenda" I advise you that if you dont like my youtube channel or videos you have millions of options elsewhere.

posted by EconCat88 on Feb 09, 2014 at 03:31:58 pm     #   1 person liked this

Floral pursuits new posted saturday hours are 11a to 3p

posted by EconCat88 on